So Fidel Castro invites Jeffrey Goldberg to Cuba and takes him to a dolphin show. When Goldberg asks whether or not the Cuban economic model is still worth exporting, the Maximum Leader says, “the Cuban model doesn’t even work for us anymore.”
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yes because teaming with a gov’t that stole the property is a good thing
Isn’t he a bit slow? The Warsaw Pact dissolved just over 19 years ago…
The last time things were humming economically being…? Maybe this is why so many Cuban “advisors” are on the Caracas payroll these days.
“40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil!”
Golda Meir
Oh, well, haha, never mind that half-century nightmare.
So is his bro then SuperMax now?
Squires,
“that half-century nightmare”
The collection of leaky, busted up wreckage piled up at Gitmo is sad, stark evidence.
Ha! I’ve visited Cuba. It was a beautiful island and it was politically fascinating, but it broke my heart to see it. EVERYONE asks you for money and not in the begging sense but rather the “I’m a doctor and I’ve been sent to Pakistan, Africa, and Bolivia, but please give me $1″ way (and though the doctors there seemed good to me, they have primitive facilities – so don’t believe the “they have amazing health care” lie). I’m gay so when I’d go out, very handsome men would ask me for sex repeatedly for money (and being gay is quite the legal hassle there…the police marched past us ensuring we weren’t acting “too gay” – so I don’t buy Fidel’s recent mea culpa on gay persecution in the past…stop the present police persecution of gays, Fidel, if you really want to make amends!). Also, random people on the street, museum curators, educated people…they all ask you for money. That’s not what you see in other poor countries…to have the educated in society asking you for money is quite peculiar to Communism.
I met a gay architect there. Smart, but he told me he only makes $15 a month. He had worked on some amazing things in the historical district of Havana. He now lives in Angola, to which he had to go to find *more economic opportunity*! In Angola! He was a wealth of information for me. He told me that the Cuban revolutionaries meant well, but that after 10-15 years of it not working out, they should’ve changed course. To play Devil’s Advocate, I said that US policy towards Cuba hasn’t helped (and I do actually agree with that), but he’d have none of it. “Stop living in the past, in decades and centuries ago. History is history but we need to move on.” He also told me that average Cubans are well aware that they can’t shop in the stores that the elite shops in (Cuba has two currencies…a worthless one for the Cubans (peso cubano) and a much pricier one for tourists and the well-connected (peso convertible)). He also said that average Cubans are also well aware that as their leaders talk “economic freedom!” and “social justice!,” their own sons and daughters are living in Madrid as heads of large, profitable companies.
Many Cubans I met expressed admiration for the US and impatience if not downright hostility towards Fidel. One cab driver told me he wanted Castro to die. I was only there 1.5 weeks, so I can’t say I’m a Cuba expert, but I got enough of a taste of the feelings of regular people to know that there existed real, if private, opposition to the way things are run there. (And I was also careful to never ask anyone outright how they felt about the system. That’s risky for them and they are used to many dumb Canadians and Europeans who say, “like, oh my God, Che and Castro and Communism totally, like, rule! Keep up the fight!”. One Cuban guy I met, when I pointed out a “Mas Revolucion” poster (More Revolution!), he responded, “please, no more revolution! We’ve had enough.” Upon my return, I grew even more impatient with far lefties who defend Cuba solely to, in my opinion, poke the eye of the US rather to see, hear, and feel how the average Cubans were suffering). Honestly, I’ve been to about 45 countries (I know, nothing in comparison to you, Michael!) and Cuba had the most pro-American populace I had seen save for Israel.
Next time some ignorant far-leftist tells me that Cuba has an “amazing system,” I’ll merely refer the words of El Comandante to him/her. =)
Thanks, Fidel!
ok…
Things have now become surreal even to me.
Fidel is on our (Jews) side?
This may take me a few days to digest mentally, or more…
THIS IS
NOT A PIPE,
R
Kyle,
Heartbreaking, indeed. There but for fortune…
“like, oh my God, Che and Castro and Communism totally, like, rule! Keep up the fight!”. :LOL: :LOL: So true. Had a relative visit Cuba recently. Castro has his die hard supporters that maybe represent over a third of Cubans. Kind of like Newt Gingrich in the US
I was pleased and touched by Fidel’s comments. He is dead right about the persecution of Jews for two millenia. More by Christians than by muslims, but a lot of anti Jewish hatred by muslims too.
We might remember that the communists backed the Jews and Israel in 1948. Communists have a difficult relationship with extremist muslims. So Castro’s comments are not that surprising. But I give him credit for them none the less.
Go Fidel! Cuba rocks! Just like the Turks!
I often think had US not kept boycott of Cuba for so long Castro’s regime would’ve fallen apart or at very least would’ve transformed into something similar to Yugoslavian socialism.
“We might remember that the communists backed the Jews and Israel in 1948… So Castro’s comments are not that surprising.”
USSR backing of Israel in 1948 was not out of the goodness of Soviet heart. In mid-40s future Jewish state’s Communists had very close ties with CPSU (CommPartyOfSU) and Stalin could not pass an opportunity to stake the Middle East “for the good of all mankind”. By 1959 Israel and SU fell very far apart and I doubt Castro thought twice whom to support. So Castro’s comments are rather surprising to me.
Castro’s regime drove out 90+ percent of Cuba’s Jews, and his greatest disciple, Chavez, is allied with the Arabist/Muslim mullahs of Iran.
And the statement that Christians were more stringent in their antisemitism than Islamic rulers can only be the product of abject ignorance of the realities of dhimmi status both in Islamic ideology as clearly laid out in the Koran, ahadith, and Sirat Rasul Allah, as well as how that was put into action throughout Islamic history… or perhaps simply a blinding ideological slant.
A taste of Castro’s past support for the Jewish people:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3903809,00.html
His pointing out “his” country’s aid to Jews during WWII is pure hilarity for its bald-faced duplicity.
maybe as Fidel gets closer to Meeting his Maker, he is developing a conscience.
I think easing the embargo (carefully) would weaken the Castro regime. However, south Florida has a significant and influential Cuban-American population, and from what I understand many of them support a hard-line against the Cuban government.
Lolwut? So, all these El Che shirts are useless?
I don’t even know what to say… Does anyone else find this funny?
This is an old Mao trick. “Let a hundred flowers bloom.” ID the folks who disagree with the party line, then take them out.
“south Florida has a significant and influential Cuban-American population, and from what I understand many of them support a hard-line against the Cuban government.”
Yes, I heard that too and I think they are mistaking. Their attempt to topple Castro externally failed. Removal of embargo would’ve opened up other possibility. Too bad those guys are too angry and too stubborn.
BTW, I do not think they will get their stuff back regardless. Look at Russia. Old money is gone forever.
This is funny, and totally trippy. Fidel in LL Bean clothes, a dolphin show run by a nuclear physicist and Che’s daughter…?
Squires, do not underestimate the degree of anti Jewish sentiment that still exists among even Americans, let alone Europeans. Europeans and Americans know its politically incorrect and mask most of it. But a little alcohol . . . and watch out.
Anti Jewish sentiment is perhaps most intense in academia, and it has almost nothing to do with Palestine. You should hear the way academics talk about Jewish academics in private, arguing that Jews help Jews with tenure, research grants, and the like. I have heard very normal otherwise good academics say the holocaust against Jews wasn’t as bad as the holocaust against many other groups of people. Not one person say this . . . many people say it.
We Americans have a long ways to go to reach MLK’s dream of judging people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
Europeans are much worse. Although they generally try to hide it. Talk to some European Jews.
A two faced fake European anti semite who flashes false smiles is more anti Jewish than the large majority of Palestinians who are upset with Israel and want justice.
I would argue that Europeans are more anti Jewish than normal muslims who live in Indonesia, Brunei, Malaysia, India, China, Bosnia, Albania, former USSR, Thailand, Kurdish areas, and Iran. [Only 20% of muslims are Arabs.]
Granted there is a huge problem with anti Jewish hatred in Pakistan, among Sunni Arabs, and “I LOVE Nasrallah” junkies [who tend to be Shiites.]
But even among Pakistanis and Sunni Arabs there are large pockets of people who respect Jews and Israelis. For example the Iraqi Muqawama [resistance of a sunni arab kind] backed Israel against Sayyed Nasrallah in 2006 because of Nasrallah’s publicly proclaimed love affair with the GoI [Sure Nasrallah was organizing violent attacks against his "friends" in private, but in Public Jafari/Maliki/Hakim/Talabani/Najaf Marjeya were God's greatest gifts to man.]
Egyptian Bedouins like Jews. There are Tunisians, Morrocans and Algerians who like Jews [maybe in part because they hate Takfiris so much.] Many Israeli citizen muslims like Jews. There is empathy for the persecution of Jews among Iraqis in general and deep guilt about what happened to Iraqi Jews. Naturally Iraqis are occupied by other things right now. But in time this sentiment will reassert itself.
Squires, I am not denying anti Jewish sentiment among muslims, but saying Christians have massive problems. [Latin American Christians also have deep problems with anti Jewish prejudice. Try talking to a Latin American Jew.]
What the hell, just push the reset button ! The left is already working on re- writing history.
Give me a break. Castro is doing this in hopes that we lift the imbargo and nothing more. Yet I have to laugh, when some say we made Casto’s island the way it is… Please. EU and Canada folks have been going there for years and it still didn’t change the way that country is.
Casro killed Cuba, not the US.
Anan, I think Palestinians who openly proclaim their hatred and intention to kill Jews are more anti-semitic than professors who think Jews give each other tenure.
Mary (#21) – Ever read the John Myers Myers book Silverlock? That was my first articulate thought. The second articulate thought was this like a chapter out of the Baen Books Heros in Hell series.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroes_in_Hell
Chris Morris couldn’t have written it any better…
MARILYN!,
R
Render – actually, I was thinking that if Goldberg hadn’t posted that picture of himself and Castro in the LL Bean outfit, that he’d had some crazy sixties flashback dream after seeing the Manchurian Candidate or Dr. Strangelove or something and confused it with reality.
There’s the absurd scene, the Catch 22-ish dialogue, like:
“Goldberg,” Fidel said, “ask him questions about dolphins.”
“What kind of questions?” I asked.
“You’re a journalist, ask good questions,” he said
..it’s just whacked. Great writing -
The only embargo that would bite the Castro brothers today would be the one not happening, by Chavez; the power of the puppetmaster’s black gold is key. Most of the rest of the hemisphere and beyond has no trade embargo with Cuba anyway. Cuba’s miseries are the revolution’s doing, not ours.
Paul S.
Some of the problems were the result of the Russians who were basically subsidizing the country by purchasing their sugar crop When that stopped, the Cuban economy took a nose dive and has never recovered.
That was quite a while ago.
Ahhh, nothing like a workers’ paradise.
I know people here in Canada who have gone there on vacation and were asked to bring any kind of medication they could find, prescription or non-prescription, since the shortage is quite acute.
Hopefully they’ll change to some sort of free-market economy after Castro goes.
And not meaning to be disrespectful, I think the Canadian banks and advisors could play a significant part in revitalizing their economy and promoting foreign investment. They’ve done quite well in other parts of the Carribean.
Investment someday, yes; but no investor with a brain would sink capital into a Castro-led economy (see Kyle’s report above.) I had a Cuban neighbor who got out early. So damn tragic.
Tourist beaches, sugar, tobacco (tales of Cuban seed among cigar smokers has approached the mythical); the possibilities are significant. I wish members of the Miami community would post; they know what I will never experience.
And let’s not forget Gloria Estefan; “Come on, baby, do that conga…”
anand that is the most hypocritical piece of shit you have written here and that is saying a lot. You have done NOTHING on this blog except pimp and toady to the most savage genocidal antisemitic motherfuckers in the world like Hamas, Hezbollah and the Iranian mullahs. You didn’t have a word for Turkey until they launched there terrorist flotilla, now your head is up their butt 24×7.
The ONLY reason you wrote that post was to make excuses for the Islamists who are BY FAR the biggest threat to Jews today regardless of anything else that has happened in the past. You’re not fooling anybody, scumbag. I don’t care if my language gets me booted, you’d hate it if I posted what I REALLY think.
“please, no more revolution! We’ve had enough.”
That would be a popular cry around the world.
What is needed is relaxation, not revolution.
I once again call for Gary Rosen’s expulsion. His posting speaks for itself. Nothing in Anan’s posting called for this kind of reaction. This is a seriously unbalanced individual, and this kind of obscene, violent ranting should not be given a second chance. (Sorry, MJT, I know you’ve got other issues you’re dealing with).
Anan – “Squires, do not underestimate the degree of anti Jewish sentiment that still exists among even Americans, let alone Europeans. Europeans and Americans know its politically incorrect and mask most of it. But a little alcohol . . . and watch out.”
R – You have a great deal to learn about human nature. Almost everybody, except some eastern Europeans, will say things when they’re drunk that they’ll regret later. Probably half of the Western world was conceived under the influence of alcohol.
Anan – “Anti Jewish sentiment is perhaps most intense in academia, and it has almost nothing to do with Palestine. You should hear the way academics talk about Jewish academics in private, arguing that Jews help Jews with tenure, research grants, and the like. I have heard very normal otherwise good academics say the holocaust against Jews wasn’t as bad as the holocaust against many other groups of people. Not one person say this . . . many people say it.”
R – My personal experience is that anti-Jewish sentiment is just as strong in the construction industry, and considerably more dangerous on a personal level. Don’t need to hear academics in private. They publish their feces on a regular basis. Know full well about the Holocaust deniers and minimizers in academia as well, they too publish on a regular basis. Also know that almost every single one of them is a Leftist, a Democrat party member, and an Obama supporter. Nice of you to confirm where it is that you are learning your opinions. When you get to the real world, you’ll learn just how much you’ve been lied to by the people you are paying to educate you. Assuming you make it here…
Anan – “We Americans have a long ways to go to reach MLK’s dream of judging people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”
R – I asked you this once before and you dodged the question. Are you actually a tax paying American citizen?
Anan – “Europeans are much worse. Although they generally try to hide it. Talk to some European Jews.”
R – I interact with Europeans, of all major religions, on an almost daily basis via different com channels. They all know I’m Jewish and they all have my back, every one of them. Next pointless generalization please?
Anan – “A two faced fake European anti semite who flashes false smiles is more anti Jewish than the large majority of Palestinians who are upset with Israel and want justice.”
R – That’s odd, Europeans, even the openly anti-Semitic ones, don’t seem to be quite as bent on ethnically cleansing or mass murdering Jews these days (or anytime in the last sixty five years). They aren’t flinging rockets and meat bombers into Israel either. Maybe your pet Palestinians should learn the definition of the word “justice” and then seek it from their Muslim brethren who owe it to them?
Anan – “I would argue that Europeans are more anti Jewish than normal muslims who live in Indonesia, Brunei, Malaysia, India, China, Bosnia, Albania, former USSR, Thailand, Kurdish areas, and Iran. [Only 20% of muslims are Arabs.]”
R – And you would be arguing to a wall, nobody believes you, not even most Muslims. What exactly is a “normal” Muslim anyway? Which sect, tribe, clan, version, or belief system did you have in mind as representing “normal” for 1.2 billion people?
Anan – “Granted there is a huge problem with anti Jewish hatred in Pakistan, among Sunni Arabs, and “I LOVE Nasrallah” junkies [who tend to be Shiites.]”
R – Did it pain you to have to write that in public? Do you realize that you just accounted for the vast majority of Islam?
Anan – “But even among Pakistanis and Sunni Arabs there are large pockets of people who respect Jews and Israelis. For example the Iraqi Muqawama [resistance of a sunni arab kind] backed Israel against Sayyed Nasrallah in 2006 because of Nasrallah’s publicly proclaimed love affair with the GoI [Sure Nasrallah was organizing violent attacks against his "friends" in private, but in Public Jafari/Maliki/Hakim/Talabani/Najaf Marjeya were God's greatest gifts to man.]”
R – Respect us so much that they’ll restore the last empty synagogue in each of their now Jew free countries as a museum (Lebanon)? Or just bulldoze it and turn into a strip mall (Pakistan) or a mosque (dozens of places)? Do you have any idea what is happening to the tiny handful of Jews remaining in Iraq right now, now that US troops are leaving (thanks for nothing Obama)?
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2010/08/remember_religions_role_in_iraq.html
Anan – “Egyptian Bedouins like Jews. There are Tunisians, Morrocans and Algerians who like Jews [maybe in part because they hate Takfiris so much.] Many Israeli citizen muslims like Jews. There is empathy for the persecution of Jews among Iraqis in general and deep guilt about what happened to Iraqi Jews. Naturally Iraqis are occupied by other things right now. But in time this sentiment will reassert itself.”
R – Bedouins also serve in the IDF, while other Bedouins are professional smugglers in the Sinai (guess what they’re smuggling and to whom). And how many Jews remain in those Muslim majority nations you mentioned? Is it surprising to you to find that there are moderate Muslims living in Israel? Empathy and guilt? Is that why they blame the exodus of Iraqi Jews on…Jews? So what? They’re going to restore another token synagogue as a museum? Will this be before or after they get rid of the last tiny handful of Iraqi Jews?
Anan – “Squires, I am not denying anti Jewish sentiment among muslims, but saying Christians have massive problems. [Latin American Christians also have deep problems with anti Jewish prejudice. Try talking to a Latin American Jew.]”
R – I do not think you know what “massive problems” means. It’s been sixty five years since the last (and worst) anti-Jewish pogrom in the West was ended by brute force. In the Muslim parts of the Eastern world the pogroms, the ethnic cleansing, and the genocide continues unabated to this day. You may not be denying (how could you possibly?) but you are most certainly making a moral equivalency that has no basis in fact or recent history. You might want to ask your professors about that…after you graduate. [You do realize that there are more Jews in Argentina alone then in all of the Muslim nations (combined) that you mentioned by name in your comment, right?]
NOT
FOR
NOTHING,
R
Fidel is old and soon to be dead, perhaps he is facing that reality now and looking at eternity. With that said his drunken brother is still nominally in charge of a brutal group of animals that has destroyed two generations of Cubans. This was all made possible by by money and support of other savages in the USSR, China and now Venezuela.
Anan wrote, “…do not underestimate the degree of anti Jewish sentiment that still exists among even Americans, let alone Europeans.” Following describes an ADL poll on anti-Semitic attitudes in America: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/5633_12.htm Following are two polls (covering different countries) from the same source on anti-Semitic attitudes in Europe: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/5045_13.htm and http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/5099_13.htm
Would the real anan please stand up.
Even the greatest of the communist era diehards have given up on the ideology…although you have to wonder if Castro truly means it or he is just trying to placate his guest and through him western public opinion! I have never heard him or anyone close to him say so or come close to admit failure during national speeches, at least not just yet! “La revolucion” is still accepted as a great cuban achievement in official circles.
Dikehopper, thanks for the two public opinion polls on anti Jewish sentiments in Europe. Spain and Portugal could be the two most anti Jewish countries on earth. Although Greeks are pretty anti Jewish also. More on that further below.
Germany is less anti Jewish than other European countries. So I was surprised by the high amounts of Jewish suspicion in Germany. Could that be right?
France is less anti Jewish than the steriotypes, and Sarcozy is about as pro Jewish as they come, so no surprise regarding France.
Italy was more anti Jewish than I thought. But the real surprise was Poland. I really wasn’t expecting Poles to be so suspicious of Jews. What is up with that? Poles love Americans. Why don’t they love Jews as well?
Would have liked to see poll results from Greece. On 9/11, there were mass celebrations in many parts in the muslim world. [As well as sympathy and support from Turkish muslims, Iranians, Indonesian, Indian muslims, Malaysians.] However, perhaps nowhere were the celebrations more cheerful and rambunctious than in Greece. The Greek masses celebrated what perhaps they saw as the hit on the Jewry in Jewdom. [New York being percieved as the capital of Jewdom.] Part of the celebration was in reaction to perceptions that America backed Turkey, Albania, Kosovo, Bosnian Muslims, Croatians, Slovenians, and muslims against Greece, Greek orthodox Christians, Slavs and Serbians. But surely not most of it. There was something very deep, visceral and dark going on. Didn’t understand why would Greeks celebrate 9/11 more than Serbs.
The contrasting reactions to 9/11 from Greece and Turkey was stunning. This is the reason why we Americans should embrace the Turks. [For full disclosure, liked the Turks before 9/11 too.]
Would bash the Greeks more, but they are lead advisers for the ANA’s armor technical trade school [probably with some French assistance under Greek OPCON], and along with France mentor all the ANA’s heavy vehicle units. Greek combat embedded advisors for the ANA are putting themselves in harms way under the OPCON of Turkey, which is lead advisor for 111 ANA Division. For all Greece’s faults, the international community needs to be grateful for Greece’s contribution.
Render wrote “Did it pain you to have to write that in public? Do you realize that you just accounted for the vast majority of Islam?” No it wasn’t painful to write because it was true. And they are aberrations. Most muslims are not like them. Agree with you about anti Jewish feelings among blue collar workers. It use to be pretty bad a generation ago. Although it is slowly getting better. But better someone with synthesis of thought, word and deed than some hypocrite academic pretending to be pro Jewish while harboring hatred in his heart.
Spain and Portugal two of the most anti-Jewish countries on earth? Please, pull the other one.
“But the real surprise was Poland. I really wasn’t expecting Poles to be so suspicious of Jews. What is up with that? Poles love Americans. Why don’t they love Jews as well?”
Anand,
Are you serious???
You really are hopeless. You clearly don’t know history, are full of useless trivia probably gleaned from Wikipedia or some Islamic resource site and are so divorced from reality that maybe you really do have your head up your ass!
yesjb, I don’t know as much as you do. But haven’t attacked you bro
There are historic anti Jewish problems in Poland. However both the Poles and the Jews fought the Nazis. Many Poles are Germanic people and therefore one might imagine their perspective might be similar to the German perspective. Finally isn’t there still guilt over the Polish role in turning in their Jews for the Holocaust? Maybe you can explain.
Squires, that was a typo. Should have written that:
Spain and Portugal could be two of the most anti Jewish countries on earth. Pakistan and the Gulf are probably worse. Talking about people, not governments.
Firstly, Anand,
I’m not your “bro”
Secondly that was not an attack but a conclusion based on reading your post.
And that post showed your abysmal ignorance of eastern European history.
Anan, most Poles are Polish (not Germanic), believe it or not. And how bout we like Turks when they like us? Turkey is one of, if not, the most anti-American country in the world (can someone tell me if I got the punctuation correctly in this sentence; I’m not sure).
Most Arab and Pakistani Muslims do in fact hate Jews. Thats about 500 million people. Even if you assume that 0% of other Muslims don’t hate Jews, you’ve still got a near-majority of Jew-haters.
A moving video tribute on the New York City Fire Department’s homepage:
“Remembering September 11th”
http://nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/home2.shtml
Rest in peace, heroes.
#Anan 44
“Many Poles are Germanic people”
Don’t try telling this to any average Pole. You were probably thinking of Silesia region – but since 1945 it is 100% Polish.
Are we having a contest here to see who hates Jews the most?
There’s a simple answer – the two religions derived from Judaism, Christianity & Islam, spread anti-Semitism wherever they were established. Both religions claim to have ”replaced” Judaism, both claim to revere Biblical personalities & claim Biblical history as their own yet promoted Jew-hatred of Jews that remained Jews.
Early Christian anti-Semitism easily merged with Hellenistic anti-Semitism & was spread by the Church to the barbarians. Basically, Islam did the same thing.
In a theological sense, neither Christianity nor Islam can be ”true” if Judaism survives & prospers. We Jews are the living proof that their doctrines are false.
Modern forms of anti-Semitism are based on this religious foundation.
Terry, nicely put. There is also the old Christ killer canard. The old John the Bapthist and most of the apostles killer accusation. And the killer of prophets accusation from muslims.
I don’t get why accusing Europeans of hating Jews as much or more than most muslims do is generating so much emotion. Europeans are more PC and guise their Jew hatred with sophistry.
Many Poles are to some extent Germanic just as many Germans are to some extent of Polish origin. There were many ethnic Germans in Poland prior to WWII – as in most of Eastern Europe, including Russia. Germans moved East since the 1300′s to the underdeveloped & under-populated East. As it happens, so did many Jews ( which is why they spoke Yiddish, a language with a large German componant).
My father came from a small town in Poland. He told me quite a bit about life in Poland for Jews. The Catholic priests gave anti-Jewish sermons & Polish kids would then go out & attack religious Jews; it was worse on holidays like Easter. There were Socialists & Communists as well – and they made speeches against the Jews as ”capitalists” who exploited the Polish masses. And, we shouldn’t forget the fascist/nationalist gov’t. of Marshal Pilsudski who hated Jews as ”foreigners” (and as Socialists). And to add to this, there were the ethnic Germans who had become Nazi sympathizers as part of their ”German” identity. My father told me that in 1936 to the time he left in 1938, the ethnic Germans would taunt the Jews, telling them that soon Hitler would come & kill them.
“Italy was more anti Jewish than I thought.”
“I really wasn’t expecting Poles to be so suspicious of Jews.”
But none of them are so eager for the genocide of Jews as you and your buddies in Hamas and Hezbollah and Turkey and Iran are you savage lying Jew-baiting hypocrite. Everyone here knows your only purpose in bringing up European antisemitism is to try to whitewash the far greater antisemitism of the Arab and Muslim world. Your pals in Iran sponsored a conference promoting Holocaust denial and your beloved Hamas explicitly calls for the genocide of Jews in its charter. Well I’m sure you’ve got some more psychopathic lies to explain that away.
I haven’t seen any major American Christian figure “hating” on the Jews lately.
#53 Gary Rosen.
The difference is that in Christianity, the sacred texts are not particularly anti-Jewish. Christians accept the Bible (Old Testament) & the new Gospels are not openly anti-Jewish. The Jew-hatred in Christianity is a product of the early Church which feared Jewish competition & even worse, Jewish interpretation of Biblical texts. Since the Bible was sacred, they couldn’t modify the texts even if they did rather poor translations. On the other hand, in Islam, the Qur’an, Hadith, etc. are openly & clearly anti-Jewish, not open to any other interpretation & still valid today.
In addition, Islam does not accept the text of the Torah – Mohammed, in his ignorance & confused understanding of Biblical texts, essentially re-wrote the Biblical narrative.
#54 Ali.
Some of the Christian denominations, the non-Evangelical ones, have a very anti-Israel stance & since, to me at least, there is no difference between anti-Zionism & anti-Semitism, you could say that to some extent, Christian anti-Semitism is alive & well. But, to be fair, these denominations have been ”infiltrated” by leftist lunatics at a leadership level & don’t necessarily represent the views of their members. This is the ”social justice” crowd & you can find them also in Reform Judaism. Someone with a better memory than me might be able to tell us exactly which of these Christian denominations have recently come out with very anti-Jewish platforms.
Ali.
By the way, Aid Mubarak.
Anan:
Many Poles are Germanic people and therefore one might imagine their perspective might be similar to the German perspective.
Germanic populations throughout Europe are linked by the fact that they speak a dialect of German. Polish is a Slavic language. I’m not sure what you’re talking about here.
Terry:
Someone with a better memory than me might be able to tell us exactly which of these Christian denominations have recently come out with very anti-Jewish platforms.
I think you mean Presbyterians? They’ve been very hostile in recent years.
Oh yes, Eid Mubarak Ali! — and to all other Muslim MJT readers (excluding Jihadis and their sympathizers)!!!
#59 Semite5000.
I think you’re right, I also had in mind a Methodist group in England.
For what it’s worth, you can add in the Reconstructionist Jews & the Reform group led by Rabbi Joffe, I’m not sure if I still consider them Jews any more than I consider the Neturei Karta as Jews.
#58 semite5000
Pre-WWII population around then German-Polish border was ethnically mixed; Germany and Poland fought for Silesia region (where population was roughly equal German and Polish) in 1919-1921. But in 1945-1947 German population of Silesia (that was transferred to Poland as decided by Potsdam conference) and of other Polish territories was deported to Germany – every single folksdeutche. There certainly are Poles with German blood in them – but even now it’s hard to find one who will openly proclaim this.
The purpose of my post #38 was to counter what I interpreted as a poster’s overstatement of anti-Jewish attitudes in the U.S. A second purpose was to show differences in attitudes towards Jews between Americans and Europeans. (The Marttila poll, sponsored by the ADL, admittedly oversampled blacks and Hispanics in the U.S., so the finding that 12% of Americans hold anti-Semitic views is somewhat overstated.)
Let me offer a recent Pew poll that may shed some light on other misconceptions held by some people: http://pewglobal.org/files/pdf/268.pdf Some of the findings are very interesting.
(Purely as an aside, the Martilla and Pew polls indicate that Israelis have more than 3 times negative attitudes towards Christians than Americans have negative attitudes towards Jews. A little math indicates that Israeli Jews have more than 4 times the negative attitudes towards Christians than American Christians have towards Jews. I was surprised but I don’t put much practical significance in it.)
If you look at the raw data of various polls and do your own calculations, I think it’s very apparent that the great, overwhelming majority of American Christians hold both Israel and Jews in high regard. (And, yes, as a previous poster indicated, in some denominations the church leadership is quite out of touch with their membership regarding Israel. But to a large extent this is self-correcting. (I have one great personal anecdote on this.))
I think it can be a serious mistake to look at events from tens, hundreds or thousands of years ago and try to apply them to the world today. History is interesting, there are lessons to be learned from it, but history can also be used in a wrong, very damaging way. The world is constantly changing.
I recently learned something that really surprised me (I had made an assumption that was very wrong). About three quarters of Arab-Americans are Christian, about one quarter are Muslim: http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/sac/dc0603/ch2.htm#_ftnref6 I had to do a mass emailing explaining that some of my statements in my newsletter over the past few years may be wrong.
To get back to the original topic of this post, the interview with Castro makes me think of the saying, “If you’re 80 and not a socialist you have no heart but if you’re 90 and still a socialist you have no brains.” Or something like that.
Gary,
Its actually 20 and 40 for the ages, at least the way I heard it, but yours is funnier given the context!
Terry,
You might be interested in the book: “How Jesus became Christian” by Barrie Wilson. He’s a professor of humanities and religious studies at York University in Toronto.
Its a bit repetitious but clearly illustrates how the early Church was formed and how it co opted Jesus (Yehoshua) as its head. For any Christian with the ability and desire to examine the religion, its quite sobering.
Your comments about the early Church are discussed in the book (that made me think of it).
History
Since it’s impossible to duplicate any previous era’s context, of specific precipitating circumstances and influential personalities leading to their history’s outcomes, it’s always best to step back from their details and focus on the forces at work then that apply today.
“The fundamental things apply, as time goes by,” and contain lessons for any age.
Paul S. #66 – I quite agree. And, Paul, “thanks for the memories”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vThuwa5RZU An enjoyable diversion. (Or maybe not a diversion at all. It’s easy to forget that those before us went through far more dangerous times than we. We have it good in comparison.)
Oh, Rick…you fool; can’t you see the lady is yours? I couldn’t resist her.
Beautiful image quality in that clip.
#65 yesjb.
I sort of see it as merchandising. The early Christians went for a larger market, the Hellenistic market. But how do you sell Jewish laws to Gentiles? Greeks & Romans wouldn’t keep kosher, not work on Shabbat, etc. Early Christianity became completely Hellenistic in philosophy, theology. Jesus became a mythical creation.
I’ll look up the book – thanks.
Terry,
That’s pretty well what happened.
Make monotheism palatable by saying its OK to keep all your barbaric customs as long as you follow the leader.
All the other trappings were made up as they went along. Too bad that Jew-hating was one of those trappings. But it was the easiest way to show that the “new” religion was a much improved version of the old one.
From the “for what it’s worth” dept.:
During WWII, Franco made no secret that he would shelter Jews who could make it to Spain. His co-fascist in Germany was very unhappy with him. (So, to patch things over, Franco sent tungsten to Germany for materiel, and let the Luftwaffe bomb Gernika to shreds.)
Also, there’s Yiddish film history of hoping to escape to Argentina. I saw a film clip about 15 years ago, of an early “talkie” in which the momma asked, “Where will we go?”, and the poppa naming Argentina as a possible destination. If anyone can name the movie and the character, I’d be grateful.
In any case, the history of modern Hispanic culture being friendly (at times) to persecuted Jews is well-established.
(Cross-posted.)
yesjb #65: That is the way I have heard it also, my post was an ironic comment on Castro’s late-in-life discovery that Communism doesn’t work.
What surprised me as much is that he actually criticized Ahmedinejad as “antisemitic”. I have never, ever, heard Castro take anything but the standard issue anti-Zionist left-wing line and my understanding is that Cuba’s Jews have not fared well under him (of course the gentiles didn’t do so hot either).
#57, #60
Thanks! Quite unfortunate that the Eid had to overlap with 9/11, though.
Terry, what do you think of the main political forces in Israel (kadima, likud, labor, etc.) ? What about the politicians (Netanyahu, Livni, Barak, Lieberman, etc.)?
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/09/fidel-tries-to-wiggle-out-of-one/62826/
#74 Ali.
Ya sahbi, are you asking me to write a book?
Let’s just say I’m not thrilled with Israel’s political system & the personality types that succeed in our Party List system which generally produces mediocre political hacks & jobniks. Our political system is dysfunctional, personally I think it’s reached a dead-end, just the rotting corpse hasn’t been buried yet.
To be fair, this is a common feature of most Western democracies these days, our system is just an extreme example.
I don’t believe you can separate political forces from economic forces, they are too entwined. And, you have to consider other institutions such as the judiciary, the monstrous bureaucracies, the defense establishment, as well as academia & the media.
I read a pretty good description of our political system & I’ll try to find it & post the link for you. I previously posted what I consider a good analysis by Daniel Doron & I’ll give you that link as well.
#74 Ali.
Daniel Doron. ”Yes, Break Them Up.”
http://www.icsep.org.il/en/commentary/yes-break-them-up/
I didn’t find the other article by Amotz Asa-El – I’m sure I’ll eventually find it.
Thanks for the link, Terry.
I heartily agree. But you need to do something about your proportional representation model of voting too.
A great idea in theory but a real disaster in practice.
Ali,
I share Terry’s cynicism here (U.S.) Without a truly educated, thoughtful electorate willing to dig below superficiality it won’t get any better. So I’m neither optimistic nor sympathetic; reality’s lessons never seem to stick long term.
Maybe it’s the same elsewhere. Here, a President complains he inherited a mess, hoping enough voters forget, didn’t learn or don’t care that, in America, the legislative, not the executive branch passes legislation; a legislature dominated by his party for years.
I agree with all the assessments of the development of Christianity and the overwhelming need, often subconscious, to assert ‘supercession.’ An Israeli I know who is pretty well-versed in European anti-Semitism told me that the Catholic Church has never revoked this. And this is what is interesting about the pro-Jewish strands in Christianity – they run counter to the basis of the religion, which requires that Jews go away, as Terry says. Most of these pro-Jewish elements seem to be ‘anti-Church’; that is, many disdain the various denominations and have this deep yearning to go back to ‘original Christianity’, which they are convinced is pro-Jewish. Of course, they combine this with a fervent hope that we will convert. You can see many comments on the article talkbacks at PJM by people who combine pro-Israel statements with versions of Western history that basically eliminate any contributory, collective Jewish role. That always fascinates.
As far as anti-Semitism in America, well, personally I think there is quite a lot. I have seen and experienced enough that it would take a long list to summarize. At the same time, I don’t believe it’s ‘European’ in nature, at least not yet. But American Jews are mostly still quite smug about belonging, and I think that’s a big mistake. Anyhow, I look forward to being back in Israel relatively soon, partly because of the above-mentioned.
Terry, yup, it’s approaching a dead-end, but I think there will be a political rebirth in Israel. However, it will also ‘ask’ that you accept the possibility that the political future will be a mix of secular and religious, with all the overcoming of doubts about that along the way. And it won’t be easy.