I woke up early this morning, before the sun even came up, with a piercing pain in the left side of my abdomen for the fourth time this month. It was worse than the other three times, and I was pretty sure I knew what it was. I shook my wife awake and told her I needed her to drive me to the hospital.
The doctors x-rayed me, CAT scanned me, and diagnosed me (not at all to my surprise) with a 6mm kidney stone.
They gave me a tightly-controlled narcotic called dilaudid through an IV. It dropped the pain from an 8 on a 1 to 10 scale down to a 0.5 in a matter of seconds. Whoever developed that stuff has my blessing and gratitude—as long as it wasn’t the Taliban. Their product is rather similar, I understand. I’m pretty sure I forgot my own name before it wore off.
That infernal rock is still in me, and while the pain is manageable at the moment (it’s only back up to a 3), I’ve been told this could last as long as a week and can get a whole lot worse very suddenly without any warning. I have to take another narcotic by mouth every four hours if I want to stay out of the hospital. Both driving and writing will be out of the question. I just collected my prescription from the pharmacy and will start now.
This is not going to kill me, but blogging could be light for a while.
Cheers and just get well.
Remember, this too shall pass; hopefully without too much more pain.
Michael, take it easy. Lucky its just a stone. I doubt the world will go blam in the next week or so. Time for the painkillers.
You could imagine worse timing….
Our thoughts are with you, Michael.
Painkillers: wonder drugs (recent experience after tooth extraction); I bless the developers, but about that constipation…not that I’m complaining!
This ” troll ” wishes you a speedy recovery.
A speedy and complete recovery. Unfortunately we have some hell in Israel now as well – 4 Dead Jews for Peace
See if they can blast it with sonic waves. That’s what I did when I developed one years ago.
A little happy juice, out for 15 or 20 minutes, a catheter where you don’t really want to know where it’s going, and a strainer to take home with you to catch the little pieces as they pass painlessly through.
All in all, not a bad process. Ask your doc.
Ah, yes, Bill Whittle did a FANTASTIC piece about Dilaudid a couple years ago. I haven’t laughed so hard at someone else’s pain since Richard Pryor’s routine about his heart attack.
The pain associated with nephrolithiasis (kidney stones) is one of the worst one can experience. A 6mm calculus is a small one that will likely pass spontaneously but can take at least several days. Ironically the larger ones rarely cause any trouble since they’re too big to get into the ureter. However if they get too large they can obstruct the kidney and cause serious problems. Those are the ones that are amenable to lithotripsy (ultrasound destruction of the stones). I don’t think a small one would qualify for that procedure but other factors may come into play. The smaller the stone the more difficult the procedure.
Hopefully the one you have will pass quickly with tolerable pain.
BTW dilaudid I believe is what Sherlock Holmes was addicted to. Its a very powerful narcotic!
Wow, the last and first time I ever heard of dilaudid was when I read “Wired: The Short Life and Fast Times of John Belushi” by Bob Woodward (excellent book and piece of reporting, btw). Belushi certainly didn’t use dilaudid for kidney stones.
Wishing you a speedy recovery, in all sincerity. Feel better Michael!
Zak, er, I mean semite5000.
A doc once told me that women who have had kidney stones and babies say the pain of the kidney stone is far worse. Hope that helps. I did ask my doctor at the other end of the colonoscope if I could take a case of fentanyl home with me….he demurred. I will raise a glass of water to keep hydrated in honor of your speedy recovery.
Wishing you a quick recovery!
You will catch up on your sleep (given a continued source of pain killers) and should loose a couple of pounds. I’ve been there so if it makes you feel any better is could be worse, Chest tube maybe. Hope you are better in a shorter time than those evil doctor told you, well maybe they aren’t so bad after all they did drug you.
I spent three weeks flat on my back in a burn unit this past spring. I love dilaudid. Morphine–which I had on tap–doesn’t even come close.
Get well soon.
Morphine is pretty wicked. Dilaudid must be amazing.
Even so, this sounds awful. Get well soon!
Kidney stones can be amazingly painful. I hope you feel better quickly.
Wow, no fun having a kidney stone. I had one in 1982 and had to go to the hospital by ambulance during a DC blizzard. Back then, no scans to detect the stone, just an IVP which is an injection of a contrast media followed by an x-ray. Much less radiation than a CT scan. The treatment I got was Darvon shots with Phenergan to prevent nausea. Worked great! With a normal IV drip to maximize hydration, the stone passed in a few days, found by peeing into a fine screen. Haven’t had a stone since.
Why did I get one? Too much orange juice and vitamin C. I only eat half an orange a day now and take ascorbyl palmitate, the oil-soluble form of C. Also, switched from black tea to green tea. No kidney stones all these years later.
Get better soon, Michael!
ouch.
Enjoy the buzz, this too shall pass…
COULDN’T
HELP
IT,
R
Ask for Demerol. Also some of the other painkillers mentioned by various responders. Then give us stone-sufferers a comparative analysis to help us choose the best one to try during the next episode.
Good luck
I wish you a speedy recovery. Take it easy and don’t tire yourself out.
Owtch! I had one back in the 70s that, thank Gawd, they were able to flush out overnight. Not Fun. Refuah shelemah.
Life is full of surprises, but nothing worse than a health problem.
Hope you have a speedy recovery.
Ugh, a kidney stone. It reminds you of all the things out there waiting to get you – the fatal and the merely agonizing. Get well soon.
A relative of my wife had a kidney stone about 10 years ago – they drove him to the hospital, making sure to hit every single pothole in the road. By the time they reached their destination, it was gone.
Refuah Shlemah.
I hope you feel better soon. Just don’t turn into Dr. House.
Dilaudid — now that’s one sly way to get over jet lag. Rest and recover; the world will still be here when you resurface. Probably.
Michael, I found this article about lemonade as a tool for relapse prevention:
http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2010/4-22-kidney-stones.htm
This center at UCSD specializes in kidney stones, so they might know what they’re talking about.
Get well soon.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/barak-israel-ready-to-cede-parts-of-jerusalem-in-peace-deal-1.311450
nyut, nyut, nyut. So, Bibi, the settlers’ candidate, is ready to give up Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem for a Palestinian capital. Who looks deluded now, right wingers?
@Terry,
As a doctor, I diagnose many renal calculi or “stones”
This condition is extremelty painful, to such an extent that we say in French ” Colique nephretique,patient frenetique”.
Maybe in Israel ,you did not drink enough water,especially with the very hot Israeli summer !
One trick that might help besides your current treatment is ,from time to time,to remain in upright position and jump several times as heavily as possible on both feet !
By many patients,it does help to expell the stone,especially when the stone is in the last segment of the ureter,close to the bladder
I wish you Refua Shlema or a peedy recovery,
Dr Trumpeldor
#28 Dr. Trumpeldor.
Je ne bois pas assez d’eaux moi-meme, justement, c’est un probleme ici. Mais dans le cas de M. Totten, est-ce qu’une pierre peut se developer en quelques semaines, la duree de son sejour ici?
#27 Mark C.
We’re talking about kidney stones not mental illness. Barak would give away Tel Aviv if the Palestinians promised to let him keep his multi-million dollar appartment. Barak is slime, you really believe anything he says has credibility? Not that I trust Netanyahu, I might add. But there are so many problems besides Jerusalem, the chances of an agreement are about zero. And, even if by miracle, some kind of interim agreement is reached, it will never be implemented.
And, don’t forget Hamas. They aren’t going away any time soon.
The chances of agreement this time are zero, but each set of negotiations helps the two sides to find out what are the real points at issue, behind all the rhetoric.
Maybe after another three or four rounds, in 20 years or so, they might edge toward some agreement.
Meanwhile, talking must be better than fighting.
#27 MarkC
Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem never were a problem – right wingers are no less happy to discard them as are left wingers (though for different reasons, admittedly). The real problems are Mount of Olives and the Old City. How can one realistically expect to divide it?
@Terry,
Problem is pure chemistry.
The less you drink,the more all your blood body compounds such as Ca 2+ tend to increase and ,in some instances, precipitate ……> stones
Granted,some underlying conditions such as gout,hypercalcemia helped by unfavorable heredity factors,may increase the formation of stones but hyperhydratation is a must in your case (2 liters/day minimum)
For Tery,I do hope the 6 mmm stone diameter is the up down figure and not in the transverse plane.The chance of a ureteral stone passing is proportional to the width of the stone. For stones less than 3 mm in width, the chance of spontaneous stone passage is very high. Stones more than 8 mm.in width are only about 20% likely to pass spontaneously over one year.
@31 Don Cox,
“Meanwhile, talking must be better than fighting”
You are a nice person and this sentence reflects it.However,in the Middle East,it is the converse thinking.
Each time you have a “peace” negociation, killings stack up…
You know now I am a doctor and I am used to treat according to the cause (ethiology treatment).
Since Israel arab conflict is based on violent muslim theology,such summits are only useful to produce nice pictures with any substance.
If obama really understood the situation, he,as a muslim, would muster a big meeting of all suni and shia branches of islam and compel them to abrogate surats from Medina….
Hope you feel better… it’s a reminder that your health is everything… now’s the perfect time to quit smoking…
Feel better, dude!
Never tried myself, but I heard of this old Russian remedy, which slightly alleviates pain and helps stone move out of the body – cognac.
As I was explained it has something to do with cognac’s effect on blood and other vessels – makes then wider, more easily passable.
I am not a doctor, but how bad can cognac be in any case.
Get well soon mate.
Sorry to hear you’re ill. My brother had a kidney stone about 10 years ago and he said it was excruciating. You have my best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Ah, I always wondered what was meant by the expression that someone “has stones.” (But I thought it was supposed to be a good thing.)
Oh, well,hope you get well soon, Michael.
Michael, hope it will be well and you’ll recover in couple of days. Ugh, 8 mm – not a small one. If it would happen to you several days ago, while still in Israel – it would be lithotripsy, I suppose – at least, my friend with the same size stone was sent to lithotripsy without second thought.
But I agree with Leo – cognac or vodka are certainly recommended!
Been there, done that, no fun….
Feel better soon. (TRust me, you will…. It is the essence of the old cliche: “This too shall pass.”)
Btw, being older than you, I have had both kidney and gall stones. Kidney was worse, though gall cost me my gall bladder. Don’t seem to miss it though, except at certain Indian restaurants. Easy on the vindaloo from here on out.
As someone said, “I feel your pain”. But, really I have. And it was one that I went around with for about 4 days till I found a doctor that was competent. One female nurse told me that she had had babies and also a kidney stone and that the stone was more painful.
But, there is a way to stop future stones. Sufficient water is one way. Another is to make sure that your calcium and magnesium intake is high enough. If you have an imbalance in calcium( too much)and not enough magnesium – that tends to produce stones, but adding magnesium is essential to stop them.
Hope this advice helps. Even though it’s free, don’t ignore it. Also, hope that you can get rid of it soon.
Cheers
@Don Cox – Both sides already know EXACTLY what the issues are.
This is more like Noh theater than mediation — it’s all stylized and laid out in advance, masks are on, process and outcome are known. Actors inhabit the role rather than create anything new, and at most there are subtle variations in pacing and tone.
This particular play is performed periodically, only on request, for the benefit of the wealthy patrons. The Western audience never seems to learn what the real issues are, and can’t get enough of this repetitive drama — it’s as if they think it’s new, or will end differently.
The actors know better.
And these talks don’t stop or deter or delay fighting. You don’t see hamas or hezbullah on the stage, do you? Heck, part of the classic script is that ‘subversive’ elements will increase violence to try to interfere with the talks or show the essential inability of the Palestinian leaders to deliver. It’s called a plot device.
What a resource here with all the medically minded. I am impressed. I’m tempted to ask some questions about the possiblity of IBS occurring out of the blue in a late forties male, but I won’t. Time for the annual check up and that colonoscopy I have put off…..
I do know that kidney stones can be terribly painful. I hope Michael is feeling better. I was lucky this did not ruin his trip to Israel. Timing is often everything.
It was lucky…yeah a trip to the eye doctor too!
Trumpeldor, do you make internet house calls?
Also Jewish genetic predispositions to certain illness is fascinating. I learned that some Jews are missing one of the several clotting factor as I am. Not serious however. Also the predisposition to auto-immune disease.
44. Maxtrue
1.Trumpeldor, do you make internet house calls?
Yes but my fees are pretty high….
2.
http://judaism.about.com/od/health/a/geneticdisorder.htm
I confessed some were quite unknown to me ….
Most Common Jewish Genetic Disorders
Mendelian Disorders are the direct result of mutated genes
Bloom Syndrome
Canavan Disease
Crohn’s Disease
Factor XI Deficiency
Familial Dysautonomia (Riley-Day syndrome)
Fanconi Anemia
Gaucher Disease
Mucolipidosis IV
Niemann-Pick Disease
Non-Classical Adrenal Hyperplasia
Nonsyndromic Hearing Loss
Tay-Sachs Disease
Torsion Dystonia
Disease Predisposition Genes are disorders which result from the combination of specific genes
Breast Cancer (BRCA1 and BRCA2)
Familial Colon Cancer
Since I often type between 2 examinations, I wrote Terry instead of Michael
@Michael Totten,
Everything will be ok !
Try to rest as much as you can and this cursed stone will come out .
When the stone is out ,try to grab it for a precise chemical analysis.
I wish you a very speedy recovery
Dr Trumpeldor
Max and Trumeldor,
I am a physician as well (diagnostic ultrasound is my specialty.) I see kidney stones very, very often.
Don’t forget the oxalate stones from eating too much chocolate
BTW you omitted the mutant gene which affects only leftist Jews and causes IDS!
Very sorry to hear of this. I know the pain is dreadful. Dilaudid is an inferior version of heroin. Legalize it. You have a powerful and influential voice on this question, one that first caused a British invasion of China, which we have already paid for 10x over and is not finished. I wish you godspeed in your recovery. Some pass these stones, others have surgery. As the region which has drawn your keen eye and generous spirit is moving toward war, you do not want to be incapacitated in the grim days toward which we seem to be marching, despite the fairy tales of President Obama.
Factor XI for me. How high the fee? I guess you don’t take Blue Cross….lol.
Yesjb, I think IDS affects more than leftist Jews. Are you cheaper than Trump?
Please get better. Painful stuff.
Get well soon Michael.
Hopefully, lots of chicken soup and tea will help you expel this unfortunate piece of self-geology, and you’ll be off the opiates before they make you barf!
There’s an Irish essential oil preparation that’s prescribed here in Israel and is a fairly effective auxiliary treatment for urolithiasis:
http://rowatinex.blogspot.com/
Max,
“Are you cheaper than Trump?”
Definitely, except for the travel expenses (LOL)
MJT
Hope you get better soon. Don’t admit to too much pain or the kidney stones win.
#32 Not true, Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem are very much at issue now, with attempts by the settler group Elad to colonize neighborhoods like Silwan and Sheikh Jarrah. There are also problems of Jewish enclaves like Ramat Shlomo trying to expand and encroaching neighboring Arab neighborhoods (Shuafat, in this case). Read the newspaper. There was a discussion on this thread a few weeks ago about this, with a lot of crocodile tears about “ethnic cleansing” of Jews from neighborhoods where they never lived and don’t belong, with terms like “judenrein” and “apartheid” and all that sort of nonsense. And for a long time people were talking about Jerusalem as being the number one obstacle to a peace agreement.
Terry, I happen not to like Barak either, but I think he is extremely effective when it comes to acting in his own self-interest, and I think he sees the success of the peace talks very much in his self-interest. There are, of course, lots of problems (like what we saw today in the Hebron Hills) which I don’t want to minimize, but I also think that the good guys have learned a thing or two since the last time we tried this, and that Hamas’ predictable, disgusting strategy will meet with much more limited results than it did the last time, and that we will see some surprises on the upside (depending on your definition of “upside”). One of the surprises I’m looking for is that the agreement will take a lot less time than a year, because the passage of time just gives Hamas and Hezbollah more opportunities to derail everything with high casualty terrorist attacks. My theory (based on nothing) is that the one year figure is dis-information for the enemy. In these crazy times, peace must be conducted like war. And if I were really a betting man, I’d say that the parties are going to come out of the meeting in Washington with the outline of an agreement already in place.
“55. MarkC
#32 Not true, Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem are very much at issue now, with attempts by the settler group Elad to colonize neighborhoods like Silwan and Sheikh Jarrah. There are also problems of Jewish enclaves like Ramat Shlomo trying to expand and encroaching neighboring Arab neighborhoods (Shuafat, in this case). Read the newspaper”
That is your main problem,you read the newspapers and you never saw the situation by yourself .
For instance,Ramat Shlomo,which is in NORTH Jerudalem, is not an enclave and encroaches nobody!
I offer the Al Swearigen method for passing a kidney stone. It’s over real quick and the extruded eye heals in a month or so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZj7H8sfkR0
Oh dear! I’m sure all the hot weather we experienced whilst you were in Israel didn’t help. It’s very difficult to remember to drink enough in such conditions. Drink lots of water, and if you have to do more, go for the ultrasound option.
Hope you feel better soon.
#55 MarkC
“Not true, Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem are very much at issue now, with attempts by the settler group Elad to colonize neighborhoods like Silwan and Sheikh Jarrah.”
You are actually confirming my point – Shuafat or Abu Dis are not presenting any problems; Silwan, on the other side, is part of Holy Basin, Sheikh Jarrah is located between city center and Hebrew University campus on Mt.Scopus. It is impossible to divide central parts of Jerusalem – all is intertwined there since before the Mandate. Today Sheikh Jarrah is mostly Arab, but formerly it was inhabited by Yemenite Jews.
Instead of dividing the city, Hebrew University students have better ideas about these neighborhoods – recently they organized “pub crawl” evening to Sheikh Jarrah – to support small businesses there. Some of these students are now regular patrons of these establishments.
And what’s wrong with Jews living in Sheikh Jarrah? There are Arabs living in Romema and Rehavia, but nobody is crying about Arab settlers colonizing these neighborhoods.
(Well, actually, in one of this year’s episodes of “Arab Labor” sitcom, the hero, Amjad, Arab journalist working in Hebrew newspaper, is sent by his newspaper’s editor to try to buy a flat in Jewish neighborhood. Editor already prepared the headline – “Racist Jews refuse to sell flat to an Arab”. But when Amjad actually buys the flat without any problems, editor promptly changes the headline – now it is “Greedy Jews selling Jerusalem to Arabs”. The unnamed newspaper in this sitcom is actually Haaretz – Sayed Kashua, who wrote the sitcom, is Haaretz’s columnist, and Amjad is his alter ego.)
As for Ramat Shlomo encroaching Shuafat – sorry, but it is bullshit. They are separated by wadi. And, in any case, neither Ramat Shlomo nor Shuafat are in East Jerusalem, and newer were. They are in North Jerusalem.
Michael, All good wishes for a speedy recovery. But what shocks me is the revelation that you have a wife who endures your travels with you. Who is she? Why do we never hear from her? Surely she can write your blog for you? Why, she probably does anyway. Her voice should be heard.
Yesjb, So you only diagnose in person eh? I do know of an apartment in my building available in NYC for short intervals that belongs to a client of mine who is never here. For a modest fee, he (not I) will sub it out for a week or so provided I vouch for the party visiting.
I’m going to send Michael my email. I’ll tell him its okay to pass it on to you. As far as my medical questions, I guess my doctor will answer them Friday. Until then, I hope a lactose and gluten free diet helps…..
Max (and others),
Don’t put off that colonoscopy, or an eye exam; you’ll learn what you won’t know otherwise—until.
My last colonoscopy was lie down, sleep, wake up and see a color photo of a polyp, fortunately benign. Amazing technology.
Another suggestion from Dr. Layman: start your day with a good amount of water; flavor it if you have to. I’ve done 32 now 64 oz. of water first thing for decades.
In my case desert reptiles probably have moister (and smoother) skin, but the morning fluid helps the pipes flow too, ‘know what I mean?
Paul, you paint a scary picture of yourself in the morning…
Here’s one for you in tribute to Prigogine:
The Hand of God http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/09/model-self-organizer/
Ah, if only my nieces had developed such self-organizing skills, their mom’s bp would be lower.
Health: it’s what you don’t know that can bite you in the nastiest ways.
http://www.king5.com/health/Ice-tea-can-lead-to-kidney-stones-101581758.html
War: same thing Paul…..
Gaby, I was thinking the same thing…
“War: same thing”
There’s your money truism. I’ve been watching Frank Capra’s “Why We Fight” series and the picture of isolationist America in the 1930s is very unsettling from today’s perspective.
Oh my, that’s rough. I had gall stones and they aren’t as bad. Get better soon.
Yeah Paul, but our age includes…the nasty little weapons, the myriad of culprits, the Oldspeak soured, the Newspeak mad and our reasoning sacrificed on the alter of whatisisnot.
Hell, the world’s population is getting rather excessive. I wonder what some genetic drift, mutation and a space rock would do to evolution.
Max,
The big buffer ponds of the ’30s don’t look so large today; “drained” by technology, so to speak.
Assault on the senses
Consider, for example, the number of new chemicals humans have injested or been exposed to otherwise just in our lifetime. Then put that in the context of our species’ historical genetic evolution.
Was it World War I (“…to end all wars”) that was called modern warfare without modern medicine? Maybe America’s Civil War, but I’d guess not.
Michael, I had a kidney stone a couple of years ago so I “feel your pain”, I hope you recover soon. For some reason dilaudid didn’t work well for me, it made me sick and didn’t lessen the pain that much. So they gave me a drug that dilated the passageway and that eased the pain but eventually it had to be extracted. Not fun. The good news is that it’s not life-threatening.
I don’t think they really know what causes them. I read all kinds of things afterward trying to figure it out and some of them were contradictory. At one time, it seems, they suggested reducing calcium intake because the stones are typically though not always calcium oxalate. But it turned out that actually made it worse. Generally you are advised to avoid foods with oxalates, but many of these are usually regarded as healthy – spinach and other leafy green vegetables, berries and legumes. Guess we should eat at BK and Mickey D’s three times a day! The only thing I hear consistently that makes much sense is to drink a lot of water. Undoubtedly there is a genetic component so maybe it doesn’t matter what you eat or drink.
Oy Michael
Get well and feel better soon!!
While waiting for Mr Totten to recover, here’s an article I ran across this morning that is an enlightening description of Palestinians living in Jordan.
At Hudson New York site: ”We Are Property: The Jordanian Gov’t. Gets Paid for Every Palestinian Living Here.” by Tuvia Tenenbom
http://www.hudson-ny.org/982/we-are-property-the-jordanian-government-gets-paid-for-every-palestinian-living-here
I’d be curious to know the conclusions you all draw from this.
Terry -
This is a fascinating article, and the author is a brilliant interviewer who knows how to ask the right questions.
That being said, nothing in the article comes as any surprise, either with respect to the benighted mentalities in the refugee camp, or their treatment by the Jordanians. They are both uniquely Arab tragedies.
It does not cause me to change my views about the desirability of a Palestinian state. The “haves” in the west bank nation would keep the lid on the “have-nots” just the same as the Jordanians. Maybe there would also be some gradual improvement in social justice, although this isn’t really my concern.
It is also useful to bear in mind that it is the Israelis who are fighting for a Palestinian state, not the Palestinians. A Palestinian state is first and foremost in Israel’s national interest, as it will allow Israel to finally become normalized, and define its borders. If this were not the case, then why have the largest concessions come from the far right? Was Ariel Sharon naive about Arabs? People like to equate the Israeli push for a Palestinian state with the left. It may have started out that way, but it is no longer so.
#79 Mark C.
Mark, have you ever considered the possibility that ”peace” in the form of an independant Palestinian state may not bring peace?
You seem to think that once there is a Palestinian state, that’s the end.
What makes you so oblivious to all our previous experiences, that no matter what we do, the conflict will continue?
Just for the sake of argument, should Hamas take over this new state & begin periodically shooting missiles into Israel, as they did in Gaza, what will be our recourse? Also, for the sake of argument, we discover this new Palestinian state invites Iranian military personal or Hezbollah cadres & begins a military build-up, as was done in S. Lebanon, what will be our recourse?
A Palestinian state will not be the END of the conflict, it will be the BEGINNING of a larger conflict.
Terry;
I have my ideas on these subjects, but I’ve already taken enough space on this thread for one day, so I’ve got a great idea. Why don’t you ask these very questions to Netanyahu and the ones who are now in Washington desperately trying to agree on a Palestinian state? Of course I’m being rhetorical, you can’t ask Netanyahu, but the very fact that this likudnik, (“Bibi, melech Israel”!)is doing exactly that, is probably the best argument I can make that a Palestinian state is a matter of necessity for Israel, and not a matter of choice.
MarkC: “you can’t ask Netanyahu, but the very fact that this likudnik, (“Bibi, melech Israel”!)is doing exactly that, is probably the best argument I can make that a Palestinian state is a matter of necessity for Israel, and not a matter of choice.”
Alternatively, Bibi may understand that Abu Mazen does not have enough clout to make peace and this is Bibi’s way to get naive Obama off his ass.
Terry – (sorry, taking up more space here)
Just to be clear, I’m not discounting a single question you raise, any more , I imagine, than would Netanyahu. My point is that a Palestinian state, and the peace that would come with it, is an existential imperative for Israel, and we are fighting a war for peace. It is a war that we might well lose, taking a look at the most recent news flashes.
Leo -
Obama will not be the last U.S. president that Israel will need to get off its ass if peace fails, and Israel needs the U.S. to face the Iranian threat. In my opinion, Netanyahu is sincere in his desire to reach an agreement for a Palestinian state.
MarkC,
The Pals could have had peace long ago. At least be honest and acknowledge that the Muslims overall, and the Pals in particular, want to get rid of Israel.
How much progress (infrastructure, agriculture, general living conditions) have the Pals made in the GS? They sure did keep that crooked SOB Arafat in power though, didn’t they?
The Pals Muslim brothers in Egypt don’t seem to care too much about the Pals do they? For good reason IMO.
Ron,
Its actually worse than that.
Abbas, the holocaust denier, has made no efforts to educate his people to accept Israel’s existence. Its the same old bullshit in their schools and mosques…Israel is the enemy and must be destroyed.
Although there are some who feel differently, they are the minority.
The PLA is the responsible “government” and they have done, in truth, is to perpetuate enmity.
Palestine, from the river to the sea…and the Jordan.
Terry is right; this is only the beginning of a larger conflict.
But if “Palestine” is an independent state, they will ultimately be responsible for their actions and will have no excuses for the fate which befalls them.
Ron Snyder;
Sure, I’ll admit to that, or plead no contest, but it is uninteresting. I care about Israel’s future. These kinds of discussions are a game, like “pin-the-tail-on-the-Arab” – if we can prove that everything is their fault, we win. But obviously we don’t win a thing. Thinking this way you’re kind of thinking like the Arabs. Time to start thinking like smart Jews. Israel has been in a state of conflict with its neighbors for sixty years now. We must get to the post-conflict stage of our existence, and we must find our own way there. Our enemies cetainly won’t help us, they want the conflict to continue. Winning wars won’t end the conflict, and what’s more, Israel is finding it increasingly difficult to win its wars, as the last two conflicts in Lebanon have shown. We can only start to end the conflict by getting to the root of it, which is the Palestinian issue. If we can make peace with a state called Palestine, this will be a huge setback for our enemies. How can Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah wage war against us, when the people who have been most directly effected by the events of 1948, the Palestinians, have made peace with us?
Our enemies won’t disappear, but they will be on the defensive, and time will be against them, whereas now time may be against us.
Yesjb, Michael has my home email if you want it.
salemtak!! get well soon michael.
Michael,
I can totally sympathise with you. I’ve had 10 of the little bastards over the past decade and the pain is often beyond belief as you will know.
The only plus side to them is when a woman tells you that ‘a man doesn’t know what it’s like to experience pain’ you can pull out the kidney stone card to trump them.
Michael in case your sober enough to read these comments and still are, I would like to tell you about my first stone [that didn't pass].
First let me tell you that I know the pain well, I describe it as if a hot piece of shrapnel has pierced your body. In case you want to know – I do know what that feels like – from a wound incurred in VN in 68.
Anyway, this has been over twenty five years ago and lithotripsy (ultrasound destruction of the stones) was brand new and the only one in Texas was in Houston.
So, loaded up on drugs like your taking I suppose, I don’t recall the drugs now, I got on a plane and went to Houston. My local doctor had made all arrangement and soon I was in a tub that looked kinda like some kind of scifi device that was dangerous. A shot and the next thing I knew I woke up and was told I would be discharged in a few hours. So home I went, still on drugs and sore from my waist up to my armpit, almost like I had been beat up.
Over the next few days, small pieces of the rock came out [painfully I might add] until one day I had the same excruciating pain as when this all began. Also I couldn’t void. After a hurried trip to my doctor and doing the dye bit and x ray, he announced that one piece of the rock had lodged in the tube just after exiting the kidney and was blocking everything.
An emergency procedure that involved threading a probe with small claws that would grab the piece of stone and then they could withdraw it.
It didn’t quite work out that way. They punctured the tube and had to do an emergency surgery. I woke up with a catheter that I had to keep in for over a week and a scar that ran from just under my shoulder blade down to my waist.
The Anesthesiologist is the only one who came by after the operation. He just wanted to tell me that I had the heart of a lion, because he had to keep me under for almost four hours.
I later found out that these two doctors were really greenhorns and this surgery was their first.
NO I didn’t sue. But looking back I should have.
I’ve passed several small ones since, but watch my diet and drink lots of cherry juice.
I hope your recovery is easier than mine.
Papa Ray
Sort of off-topic, though I’m not sure theres much of a topic here.
I keep hearing that Saudi Arabia is a state sponsor of terrorism. Are they? I thought that they just “encouraged” terrorism (talked about martyrdom and made it look like something you should aspire to, looking the other way when terrorists go to Iraq, etc.), which is what pretty much all Arab states do.
So are they actual, active sponsors of terrorism?
Michael, I do have a relative who had lots trouble with kidney stones, but I will refrain from sharing his story because I don’t want you to worry.
MarkC “In my opinion, Netanyahu is sincere in his desire to reach an agreement for a Palestinian state”
Maybe. I am even willing to concede that Abbas wants peace to. The problem is that neither of them (and especially Abbas) has enough political weight to achieve anything meaningful.
Michael,
I hope you are feeling better than 24 hours ago.
“I will refrain from sharing his story because I don’t want you to worry.” Ali, that’s funny, don’t you think? I won’t tell you what happened to poor X because I don’t want to worry you……
I do think Abbas and Netanyahu reaching a framework and some kind of accord would be a powerful tool in isolating the hostile forces. Already Hamas as damaged further their image as a resistance force. Iran is quickly losing even Leftist support. Despite the terrible deaths in Israel, this is a clear advantage for Israel. Obama wants to keep this going until the election. Very interesting situation……
#87 Mark C.
Do you seriously believe what you’re saying? That was hilarious.
You know what, Mark, you wouldn’t have survived a year in my country with your mentality. Over the years, I was acquainted with quite a few Westerners who had come to Morocco to do business or work in mixed companies (Franco-Marocaine). A few learned fast & realized where they were, but most were eaten alive, in effect traumatized & defeated, and they soon left.
On a more optimistic note, Prof. Barry Rubin wrote an interesting article on the beginning of peace talks & Netanyahu’s possible strategy.
RubinReports: ”Barack Hearts Bibi.”
http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/
#92 Ali.
Simple answer: YES
They play a double game. They crack down on the anti-regime radicals within their country & support terrorism outside their country. In other words, it’s ok to make Jihad everywhere else, just not at home.
I think their activities are too well known to bother itemizing them here.
#92 Ali.
By the way, did you read the article to which I linked in my comment at #78?
#98 Terry
Terry, I presume that those Palestinians from refugee camp – when they say Jordanians, they actually do mean Bedouins. Granted, I was in Jordan only on standard tour – Petra etc – but tension between Palestinians (locals, not refugees) and Bedouins is palpable.
#99 Rabbit256.
I assume they did mean Bedouins as well. As in most Arab countries, a small minority of some kind, ethnic, religious, tribe, clan, whatever, rules over the rest. Like the Alawites in Syria (who aren’t even Muslims) or how Sunni ruled over Kurds & Shi’a
in Iraq. In Morocco, the Arabs rule over the Berbers, the Arabs in turn dominated by the Fassi (families from Fes).
I’ve had some limited contact with Bedouin here in Israel, mostly with cab drivers here in Eilat, and from our rather bizarre conversations in my Moroccan Arabic mixed with Hebrew plus some English & the cab driver’s Bedouin dialect Arabic, Hebrew, & some English, my impression is that the same tension exists here in Israel.
Ali – Since you asked, here are just a few of the facts about Saudi support of terrorism:
The Saudi rulers consider the members of their al Qaeda militia to be their ‘brothers’. Like most families, they fight every once in a while, but in the end they share the same goals and attitudes. According to Gerald Posner’s book “Why America slept” When terrorist Abu Zubaydah thought that he was being interrogated by members of the Saudi government, he spoke to his interrogators as rescuers and friends.
“He was given pain killers and sodium pentothal in the old game of “reward and punishment” in a cell made to look like a Saudi jail, while being questioned by two Arab-American interrogators. Instead of being alarmed at finding himself in “Saudi” hands, he was relieved and started reeling off names and numbers of Saudi princes who could vouch for him…”
Most of these princes were not believed to be radicals or upstarts. They were (and still are, if they’re still alive) trusted “friends” of the American government.
- The Saudis ‘oppose’ al Qaeda in the same way that Arafat opposed the terrorist murder of Jews, or in the same way that Queen Elizabeth opposed pirates like Sir Walter Raleigh. They express public horror for their actions while quietly supporting sneaky wars of proxy.
Some facts about the Saudi/Al Qaeda family:
- After 9/11, according to a CNN poll, 95% of educated Saudis supported bin Laden. A friend of mine who is married to a Saudi man and who taught in a Saudi elementary school, was horrified by the fact that all Saudis, even the little girls, were celebrating the 9/11 attacks.
- KSM’s first draft of the 9/11 attacks was begin with the hijacking of ten airplanes and to end with KSM landing the tenth plane at a U.S. airport and delivering a speech excoriating U.S. support for Israel. Bin Laden made some changes to the plan, but the idea of blaming US support for Israel was not coincidentally promoted by Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal as he stood over the burning wreckage of the World Trade Center.
- Saudi Prince Bandar’s wife contributed thousands of dollars to two of the 9/11 hijackers. According to later spin, she did this out of the goodness of her heart. She thought one of them had a cold or something.
- More than 45% of the foreign fighters in Iraq were Saudis. In 2005, Saudi chief justice Sheik Saleh Al Luhaidan was appearing on Saudi TV, demanding that all young Saudi men go to Iraq to wage jihad against the Iraqis and the Americans. As a result of this (and as a result of King Abdullah’s quiet support of al Luhaidan) thousands of Americans and Iraqis were murdered by Saudi suicide bombers. (the majority of suicide bombers and the majority of financial supporters of al Qaeda were and are also Saudis)
- The State department and various government officials like to say that our alliance with Saudi Arabia is ‘thicker than oil”. Since we get most of our oil from the western hemisphere, oil isn’t the most important part of the alliance. Our government also believes that our alliance with these Wahhabi extremists helps to maintain stability in the Middle East. Most governments, including Israel, are willing to publicly go along with this fiction.
- Like Arafat and Queen Elizabeth, our alliance with Saudi Terrorism Inc. lets our government officials fight wars of proxy against the Russians, the Chinese and the Iranians. The Saudis are an essential part of the Chechen “separatist” movement.
This alliance is profitable for the members of our government, and it allows them to play expensive geopolitical games, but it’s harmful to the average civilian soft target. The only role we play in this game is “victim”. Our government is not allied with Saudi Arabia because they HAVE to be allied with them, we’re allied because members of our government WANT to be allied with them. The Saudi economy is miniscule compared to ours, but since the media, the universities and the government are dependent on that money, they will put a lot of effort into creating the false impression that Saudi bribes are essential to our economy. When they say that, they’re lying.
We call that “biting the dunny door” pain here in Australia. I had one a few years ago – my sympathy. They had to have two goes to get mine – finally got it with a laser. Nothing like Pappa Ray went through, but if they do have to go in after the stone I have a couple of tips for afterwards. If it hurts afterwards to void – there is a drinkable medicine to reduce your acidity – demand it. Lastly, give yourself some time to recover. You’ll be wiped for a day or two. Good luck.
Michael, feel better. I have small kidney and bladder stones, seem to be under control. I went through tests recently for kidney and bladder cancer on the way to the diagnosis. It was unpleasant, so is lack of health insurance. Feel better soon.
Terry, I read/skimmed Rubin’s report. I don’t know, Barry seems to have gotten a personal briefing from Bibi on, like, how effective Beeb really is.
Maybe the truth is halfway in between. I don’t trust Barak any farther than he could throw me, so to speak. I think he probably also set up Ashkenazi with the Gallant Document thing, but that’s probably just me.
#103 Larry in the Silicon.
Now read Caroline Glick’s new post, ”The New Netanyahu”
http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2010/09/the-new-netanyahu.php
I tend to agree with Glick’s take on this – the fact that there was no retaliation against Hamas in Gaza after the murder of the four Israelis is telling, actually, it was the first thing I thought of even before reading Glick’s post.
I read the first half. I agree with her analysis of Bibi’s statements about not ‘winning’ and ‘arguments.’ He is doing what Rabin and Peres did – something that neither American nor Arab negotiators do – removing himself from partisanship on behalf of his own, playing the neutral wise man who can see both Arab and Israeli positions, and implicitly condemning Glick and the Terry’s and Larry’s of Israel. This is apparently a nearly uniquely Jewish habit, and in the face of innumerable enemies – ‘going liberal’ in the midst of conflict.
I did not have the patience for the rest of Caroline’s article. I am impatient with a number of things at the moment, dealing with some tough realities here, on the ground.
#105 Larry in the Silicon.
I can understand being impatient, I have a few tough realities myself.
Be well, that’s all that matters.
Terry -
Who cares if I would have survived a year in your country? I live in Israel, not Morocco. Where is it written that the lowest common denominator will control the future? You seem hell-bent to join the lowest common denominator, and call it being realistic. That’s what I call cynicism.
Anyway, I’m all talked out on the subject. Only time will tell now.
Okay, Terry. I will. Family stuff, related to taking care of my aging parent. Might be postponing an early return to Israel, but I suppose that’s life. Good luck with your health too.
Mark, they don’t want peace. You selectively choose to see the slaughter near Hebron in the Oslo context, as presented by those wonderful Dr. Strangeloves of Israel, Shimon Peres and Yossi Beilin and others. You said in an earlier post that Israel must seek peace despite the best efforts of its enemies to hamper such a solution. I didn’t quote you exactly. Look at what you wrote, man, it’s obvious – the Left tries to force peace on enemies who don’t want it. What could be clearer? Get used to the siege, the only ways out are either to 1) leave 2) support policies that will force the Arabs and the world to truly recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Be part of the solution, not of the problem.
#108 Larry in the Silicon.
That’s a tough reality, I took care of my mother for many years. But, fullfilling an obligation is part of life, it’s the biggest mitzva you will do in your life.
Larry, as an American, I think the bigger problem is Iran and the spread of radical Islam. In that context, neutralizing the Palestinian problem is a huge geopolitical advantage. Already Iran is screaming for Abbas not to make peace. Let Hamas and Hizb’Allah hang themselves in the world’s eye and a major strike against Iran is possible. I wouldn’t exactly call Rabin a Leftist, though he was murdered by an extremist. Get Abbas to except the Clinton deal of 2000. Everything after that doesn’t matter. It will be clear even to idiots, who is for peace and who is for hate..
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Iran-Blasts-Israeli-Palestinian-Talks–102148154.html
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gLa1W5OnBNSdkDbm7nDWindbu4SwD9I0EPO01
Larry in the Silicon;
Who is “they”? You know what, I saw a picture in today’s newspaper of Netanyahu sitting next to (touching knees in fact) with the president of Egypt and the president of Jordan. And, of course, the president of the PA, Mahmoud Abbas, was there on behalf of the Palestinians. Does this mean nothing? I know, these men are all weak…toothless, corrupt, old has-beens. Oh, and I guess I forgot to mention that the U.S. and Europe are behind us as well.
It’s amazing how you people insist on denigrating our allies, and hating but bizarrely respecting Iran, Syria, and the rest of these global losers. These losers are engaged in a spoiler strategy. The west can kick their asses every way until sunday, and you insist on giving them the pride of place – the ones who will determine our future.
And stop talking to me about Shimon Peres and Yossi Beilin. How many times do I have to make the point (ignored by all of you) that it was Ariel Sharon who unilaterally gave up the Gaza Strip. And Obama wasn’t president, it was George W. Bush. He gave it up like a bitch, unilaterally, like the most knock-kneed, limp-wristed leftie in Rabin Square. And why, Larry? Why Terry? (kind of sounds like the three stooges). WHY, WHY, WHY!!!!
Well, maybe it was because he didn’t have a choice. Maybe the Americans were twisting his arm, or maybe he had some kind of epiphany similar to the one described by poor, insignificant old MarkC, it doesn’t matter. He was dealing with something called reality… not jumping up and down in the zero gravity chamber like all of you on this website.
MarkC
That’s right Mark, Sharon did give up Gaza and look what he got…the peace of a thousand rockets! If he were conscious, he’d fall into a coma, knowing what’s happened!
Begin gave up the Sinai but he wasn’t dealing with a band of murderous genocidal maniacs who you seem to think are no problem at all.
Photo ops mean nothing, Mark. They certainly are not reality.
And soon, not if, the radical Muslims take over Jordan and it becomes another Iranian vassal colony; and who knows, perhaps Egypt too, you’ll find some other excuse to show us that everything is just fine and peace is at hand.
Didn’t Neville Chamberlain proclaim that too?
Oh yes, he did after they sacrificed the Czechs to Hitler!
Take off your blinkers and stop with all the wishful thinking. You’re as close to reality as the Americans were on Dec. 6/41
#111 Mark C.
Re: Mubarak & Abdallah. Suggest you read what their presence really signified.
At Hudson-NY Org. : ”Hypocrites in Washington: What Egypt’s Mubarak & Jordan’s King Abdullah Really Want.” by Khaled Abu Toameh.
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1529/mubarak-king-abdullah-washington
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3948049,00.html
Anecdotally are there rising discipline, professionalism and quality problems in the IDF?
Ali, the “Iraqi resistance” was dependent on billions of dollars of financing. Money is the mother’s milk of all wars. Where do you think the Iraqi resistance was partly financed from?
Most of the suicide bombers who mass murdered Iraqis were not Iraqi. Where did they come from and what organizations organized and sent them? The Iraqi resistance was depedent on Command and Control, training centers, and logistics hubs outside of Iraq.
For that matter, go through the same exercise with respect to the Taliban threatening the Pakistani State, the Taliban threatening Afghanistan and the Stans to Afghanistan’s north, Chechnya Russia, Kashmir India, southern Thailand.
None of this is rocket science. Part of the establishment of the Gulf and Pakistan are at the center of most global extremism and most global security threats.
Wait a minute guys…..Begin gave up the Sinai to a government with Billions of US dollars to keep the peace. Sharon gave up Gaza with a weak PA in place who subsequently got their asses kicked by Hamas. He should have arranged some Egyptian control or even NATO ground forces, but he unilaterally gave it up. Even Bush was surprised. The reasons still made perfect sense, but Sharon did not negotiate a withdrawal. He did not negotiate an agreement. The tactic was a mistake. To this day, what Hamas has done has led to an embargo and terrorist status. Still, Gaza is Palestinian and it keeps Egypt and the Saudis covert allies. The alternative to keeping Gaza is stupid, but I won’t argue on about that now. The strategy in dealing with the rockets was also not very brilliant.
Terry, as far as what Jordan and Egypt want, that is irrelevant. They have their street to contend with. Who gives a crap? They need a peace accord if “Hudson” is right. They need a peace accord if “Hudson” is wrong.
Yesjb, calm down dude. Render would say Israel has more than enough force to wipe Gaza and Southern Lebanon clean off the map. The comparisons to 1939 are a stretch. If you include Iran however, well maybe there is a greater threat, but even the pretense of a peace accord now is very important in this chess game. If AQ, Iran, Syria and terror groups like Hizb’Allah and Hamas are the real enemy (don’t forget Pakistan), taking them on must include some separation of the Palestine issue from radical Islam and the thuds in Syria. I think Bibi recognizes this. Neville was waving no stick. Bibi has a button he can push.
The real Neville moment we must be careful to prevent is a Grand Bargain with Iran that is a load of bullshit. Even if I was the Hawk President of the US, I would want to show the US is not intent on occupation, domination, is determined to find peace while we beef up our military to prepare a hammer. Whether Obama can do this, is debatable, but I don’t see how what we are doing now make this a pipe dream. We ALL know what the odds are. I don’t think Mark is deluding himself. He is probably not optimistic just like us. But the strategy here makes sense because should the enemies make an ass out of Obama, he has no political room to maneuver. Just look at Ahmadinejad squeal like a stuck pig……. I think you are confusing Mark’s geopolitical strategy from realism on the ground. It is the former that will determine if Israel and the US can weather and eventual use of force.
Lay
Waste
The
Haters
weather the eventual use of force
Anan, the Shia who murdered many Sunni in Iraq were backed by Iran. Same with the horrors in Lebanon. Once again you confuse the whole picture and begin your comment with a slap at the IDF. As Iran, Hamas and Hizb’Allah along with Syria threaten the peace talks, you point to Pakistan.
Now how friggin bright is that?
NOT
VERY
(damn Render, you started a habit here…..)
http://www.wired.com/playbook/2010/09/impossible-soccer-kick-leads-to-new-physics-equation/
Now apply this to a round bullet……
Just to lighten up Hell Week…
Hope Friday is feeling better Michael…..
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/748a0362df/hitler-is-told-about-the-unc-ncaa-investigation
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/f5bc21051c/ground-zero-mosque-downfall?rel=player
Sorry, this is what I was trying to link….
Have a laugh, its Friday
Shiite extremism is a threat but a small fraction the global threat posed by Takfiri extremism.
The largest reason why Shiite extremism threatens the world is because it reinforces Takfiri conspiracy theories that there is an international conspiracy by Jews, Shiites, Sufis, other minority muslim groups [Ahmedis, Kurds, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Sindhis, Balochis, Palestinian Authority], Mossad, Hindus, Buddhists, Israelis, Europeans, Americans, Indians, RAW, Jews, Russians, Serbians, Jews, Wall Street Usury, Jews, to destroy the true Islam. Naturally the whole thing is kept together by secret Jewish blood combined with the UFOs from Mars and UFOs. Did I mention that the many of all of these coalition of evil people are secretly Jewish [while simultaneously being Christian, Hindu, Shiite or whatever their "actual" faith happens to be]? For some reason the Takfiris like to mention “Jews” a lot when talking about how they plan to mass murder Sufis, Russians, Serbs or whatever. [Mr. Rosen, its a joke
]
So yes Shiite extremism matters, mostly because of it is one of the root causes [along with Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia, Southern Spain, East Timur, Kashmir, Iraq, democracy] that enrages Takfiris and fuels their propaganda.
Shiite extremism is mostly but not solely a collateral affect of the Takfiri threat. [Naturally Khamanei/Nasrallah et all believe that the Jews are in bed with the Takfiri, so their response to Takfiri attacks on Shiites is to blame the Jews for them and attack Jews and Takfiri.]
Maxtrue, only one tenth of one percent of the world’s people live in Israel. The “peace process” mostly relates to the rest of the world, not Israel. Israel simply isn’t that important from a global perspective. The vast majority of people around the world are threatened more by Takfiri extremists than Shiite extremists.
BTW, Syria simultaneously backs both Shiite extremists and Takfiri. In Iraq Syria supported Al Qaeda and Baa3thists. Syria was the conduit through which Khamanei backed Takfiri AQ linked crazies while maintaining plausible deniability.
Mona Charen on why the Israeli-Palestinian peace talks are doomed: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/245555/these-talks-are-doomed-mona-charen Nothing new here, but Charen always presents things in a simple but clear manner.
Maxtrue @ 120,
Wow! This stuff is even better than Captain Stabbing flotilla by LatmaTV.
Laughter will save the World.
Thank you
“international conspiracy by Jews, Shiites, Sufis, other minority muslim groups [Ahmedis, Kurds, Tajiks, Uzbeks, Sindhis, Balochis, Palestinian Authority], Mossad, Hindus, Buddhists, Israelis, Europeans, Americans, Indians, RAW, Jews, Russians, Serbians, Jews, Wall Street Usury, Jews, to destroy the true Islam.”
If there is a Jew who is not flattered by this list I’d say this Jew is an idiot.
To be mentioned six times, while everybody else is mentioned only once.
Chosen people, must be true.
Way to go, Jews!
#98
#98
Yes I just did. Nothing new to me. I’ve heard lots of bizarre explanations and justifications for the Holocaust. They say things like the Jews fought Hitler. And I say things like “do Muslims collectively make group decisions and take action?”. And they say no, but then I ask them why they don’t apply that logic to Jews. And they never have an answer. I also try to point out the fact that Jews served in Germany’s army in World War 1. I also tell them that Hitler explains his racial hatred of Jews in Mein Kampf, which was published in 1925, 8 years before he became chancellor and 8 years before the Jews had a chance to “fight” him.
“If there is a Jew who is not flattered by this list I’d say this Jew is an idiot.
To be mentioned six times, while everybody else is mentioned only once.
Chosen people, must be true.
Way to go, Jews!”
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: nicely said Leo. Lighten up, take the crazies in stride . . . much of what they say is simply hilarious.
Andy Samberg does more to delegitimize Ahmaninijad among Iranians than a million rants:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TheSNkiQSQ
Mark, your characterization of Bush is a little strong. Also the rape imagery is kind of offensive. I agree that he wasn’t all that he was cracked up to be.
I honor those losers? No, not at all. Just aware that they are losers partly by virtue of their endless hatred of Israel. Sure, they’re losers now, but give them a foothold and they’ll make your life hell again.
And thanks for The Three Stooges references – very mature. Bottom line is that we have another attempt to make the unworkable workable. If that’s what you want to go through again, another series of bombings and Israelis wanting to flee the country because of it…
Max, I enjoy skimming your posts.
Terry, thanks. It’s been a struggle. It will continue to be a struggle. Part of it is that my finances are now kind of wrecked, and I wanted to be able to visit her often from Israel. So I’m kind of stymied. Shabbat Shalom.
Mark, PS. I lived near Rabin Square in ’08 and I never saw that stuff going on. Maybe I should have gone down there at midnight?
Larry, hope things settle down. I enjoy reading your posts as well as Terry’s. Its not like I don’t understand what you’re saying. In many ways you simply explain the local weather. There are many levels to look at it, and certainly on the ground is a good start. I am concerned that the present geopolitical dynamic endangers Israel and the US far more than Hamas. That’s easy for me to say as new Hamas operatives walk the West Bank. We have to re frame. The bigger picture is Iran and its proxies. The problem is the Taliban and AQ, all the extremes that can replace Hamas. I think the Washington theatrics now are needed. The Narrative is Peace, even if Peace is War.
Despite Anan’s usual Shia cheer-leading (Shia extremism is really the fault of Sunni extremism), Iran is the real problem. His reference to the “peace process” is bizarre, as the most serious escalation requiring a peace process is with Ahmadinejad and his proxies including those in Iraq and even in Afghanistan.
Leo glad you liked them….
Max,
“Let Hamas and Hizb’Allah hang themselves in the world’s eye”
Right. We talking the “international community” here? The UN?
My hope: every September is a time to remember, 1939, 2001.
Add 1945 for good measure. Still looking for that shot of the Emperor and General MacArthur on the deck of the Missouri, Mr. President…
Paul, I know that one can wonder about “international community”. I mean the people in Russia, France and England, who know deep down inside, Hamas, Iran, Hizb’Allah, AQ, the Taliban are nuts and do not want peace. You think the French like Bruni called a whore and targeted for death? Iranian official has already called Obama a nigger without any governmental retraction. PBS reported than several months ago. I don’t type that word lightly here either. It is important to see how words and behavior strike at our unconscious, even if we are unaware. The narrative IS important. Almost as much as military strength.
When the shit hits the fan, it will count for an essential ground swell in support for the Allies, not the Axis. Even more importantly, the majority of Muslims who stand for peaceful co-existence must pick a side. It would be hard to stand with us, if we hadn’t tried very hard to find peace.
I hope you’re right, Max. But you know I’m terminally pessimistic; six decades of same old, I’ve seen now.
“It is important to see how words and behavior strike at our unconscious, even if we are unaware.”
The power of the teleprompter and a compliant press do enough damage to the conscious mind.
I just keep wondering…how f’in’ bad does it have to get first?
Max,
Remember Kevin Nealon’s Mr. Subliminal on SNL? What a stealth Al Jazeera correspondent he’d make.
Max, patronizing I think on your part. I merely describe the local weather. Actually, I think I do a bit more than that. Your presumption to be the great geo-political strategist is a bit much. But I guess that’s payback for me saying I only skim your posts. I only skim them because I believe that your innovative and earth-shattering approaches are dead ends. I have also had great strategic insights, but if you want to tell me that you’re smarter, that’s fine.
“Even more importantly, the majority of Muslims who stand for peaceful co-existence must pick a side.”
By this one sentence, Max, you delegitimate your strategic thinking. Try again….
Try for understanding the real issues – more reality, less showing off.
That is funny Paul. I’m picturing exactly what you mean and it would be hilarious. That guy Yousef who works for Stewart could do it. He is a riot. I doubt however with the Mosque so PC media controlled, Stewart or SNL would try that. Maybe an Israeli spoof of SNL……
“But Ahmed Yousef, Hamas’ deputy foreign minister (terrorist thug), told Al Jazeera that the Palestinians were not behind Abbas.
“This is not the right way to hold talks (no blood and violence); we know Abbas is in big trouble. He has to be following (Israeli mind control) the dictation from the Americans to come to Washington and unfortunately the Arabs (pathetic losers) that were backing him [are] being co-opted (butt-fucked) by the US,” he said.
“Abbas is not doing the right thing (murder and hate) and that’s what most of the Palestinians have said.”
This is Yousef reporting here from the Gaza Strip (easy women) AJ
Larry, don’t be a dick. I’m not trying to tell you I’m smarter any more than you are. I actually wasn’t being patronizing. I genuinely read much of your posts and understand the ground insurgencies, the equations of survival. I do have friends in Israel. I even have some friends that fought for Israel. Big Deal.
Tell me your earth shattering strategic insights. Show me how they’re not dead ends. You know its not all about Israel is it? And I listen to a lot of crap about America. You’re so sure of Congress? You’re so sure of Obama. Maybe local weather was the wrong analogy, but Israel isn’t stopping Qaddafi or Pakistan, AQ in Afghanistan or Africa. I think reducing the world down to irreconcilable differences between Israelis and Palestinians is a bit much, don’t you?
“He is doing what Rabin and Peres did – something that neither American nor Arab negotiators do – removing himself from partisanship on behalf of his own, playing the neutral wise man who can see both Arab and Israeli positions, and implicitly condemning Glick and the Terry’s and Larry’s of Israel. This is apparently a nearly uniquely Jewish habit, and in the face of innumerable enemies – ‘going liberal’ in the midst of conflict.” Oh really, uniquely Jewish? And Jewish extremists murdered Rabin. Were they right?
Great geo-political strategist? Like I’ve laid out any grand strategic vision…lol. Because Iran and the greater global problems require some thinking outside the Israeli box? Is that being uniquely Jewish too?
And I’ve spent some time Larry with family issues and medical problems. My sympathies for yours…
CHILL
OUT
Are you nuts Larry? Are you telling me of the 1.4 BILLION Muslims and certainly most AMERICAN MUSLIMS, do not stand for peaceful co-existence? The majority of North Africans, Indonesians are against peaceful co-existence?
Perhaps, you might want to reconsider your claim…..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11182225
Later guys….
Mike:
Having gone thru the same thing (several times) I can empathize with what you’re going through. Drink LOTS of water, not and in the future, to reduce the formation of stones. If you’re lucky, the stone will pass by itself. Lots of luck.
#140 Maxtrue.
On ”peaceful coexistence” ……
What YOU think this means is not necessarily what most Muslims believe. Anyway, you phrase this wrong, it’s not that many Muslims don’t believe in some kind of peaceful coexistence, it’s that ISLAM does NOT believe in any form of peaceful coexistence.
If, let us say, for the sake of argument, that 60% of Muslims world-wide believe in peaceful coexistence, that leaves a hell of a lot of people who don’t.
Do you know what ”peaceful coexistence” means in practice when you live in a Muslim-majority country as a member of a non-Muslim minority? I sincerely hope you never have to find out.
That was funny, the Hitler clip you linked to. I’ve seen several of these, all really funny. Thanks.
#143
Terry, religions change. You can’t say that Islam believes this or believes that. It depends on your interpretation.
That being said, I believe that 60% is too high a figure if you count Arab and Pakistani Muslims.
http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/42898/lawless/
Mark, you do understand that Israel can’t unilaterally declare the conflict is over, right? That will probably ensure their destruction, or at least make life very difficult for people there.
“For some reason the Takfiris like to mention “Jews” a lot when talking about how they plan to mass murder Sufis, Russians, Serbs or whatever. [Mr. Rosen, its a joke ”
Yeah, murdering innocent Jews has always been a big joke to you. You’re as funny as a crutch, dirtbag.
#144 Ali.
I read the link. I think Lee Smith, the author, is just playing with words & being very politically correct, in other words, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. At any rate he’s no scholar & I can see he has not had the experience of living in a Muslim country where he would see Shari’a law applied, and it is applied. Even in Morocco which has a modified form of French Civil Law, elements of Shari’a law have been incorporated & in matters of personal status, is 100% applied. You lived in Saudi Arabia – can you say that Shari’a law is NOT applied?
I agree with you, over the course of time, usually a long time, elements of religion change. Judaism evolved over the time, absorbed many new ideas & concepts.
Christianity has also changed, mostly it changed at it’s very beginning, when it became a separate religion from the Judaism of Jesus & became a Hellenistic religion.
Would I say that Islam absolutely cannot change? No, of course not. But what I would say is that the changes necessary (from my point of view) would no longer be Islam.
We touched on this briefly some time ago.
I have no problem with the ”folk religion” Islam that was practiced years ago when I was a kid. OK, I didn’t like it, much of it irritated me, but it irritated me in much the same way as some Jewish practices in Morocco. Many of our ”rabbis” were as backward & superstitious as any Muslim fqih (preacher). You might find this surprising, but even my grandfather had similar criticisms.
But this ”folk religion” that was practiced by the majority of Moroccan Muslims was in a sense removed from the ideology present in Islamic scholarship & writings.
At various times in the past, this ideology gained the upper hand, with disasterous consequences for Jews in particular but also for many Muslims who suddenly became ”heretics” –
Today, I see little evidence that Islam can change in a good direction. The trend is in the opposite direction. The other trend, also present, is that many Muslims opt out of Islam unofficially, they just sort of ”drop out” & remain, at best what some call cultural Muslims.
#144 Ali.
Re: the 60% coexistence figure.
Obviously, I’m just guessing. But, I’ll tell you, I ”coexisted” for most of my life. But, it wasn’t coexistence on the basis of equality. Not even close.
Was I persecuted, physically abused, or forbidden to practice my religion? No.
In some ways, I had preferential treatment.
But, I can tell you that if you remove the constant barrage of anti-Israel propaganda in the media, stop the incitement from the mosques, get rid of the Saudi missionaries, & improve the educational system with objective & accurate history texts, at least in a country like Morocco, it would make coexistence a hell of a lot easier.
Terry, I will never tell Israelis how to protect themselves. I advocate as much as I can for your safety and future. I agree with you in large part about Islam and have been calling for the collective responsibility of Muslims to address the “great misunderstanding” and clarify the Koran. Ali is a great example of what is possible, not what is probable.
Yes, there are hundreds of millions of individual Muslims that seek peaceful co-existence with non-Muslims. I would put it over 60% but acknowledge “peaceful co-existence” is perhaps between countries. May non-Muslims are not treated well IN Muslim countries. Many Muslims say that their clerics do not draw such hard interpretations from the Koran, much the way Reform Jews don’t advocate Old Testament Justice. Okay, you and I know it is a bit different than that comparison, but to millions and millions of Muslims who are not zealots or fundies, it is HUGELY important we show how sincere we are in seeking peace and justice. That is all I meant.
There must be reformation and all people have a biological hierarchy of needs beyond what Islamic mind control tells them. My dislike for the haters (including non-Muslim ones) is as great as yours. I am optimistic however and you are cynical. I do understand that you face this more directly than me. How sick is it that “peace talks” always require Israelis to die withour retaliation?
Still, America has to deal with a much wider global mess than a thousand mile circle around Israel. Peace talks are to our advantage as well as Israel’s. The last two posts at Debka are shrill and warmongering, no matter some true facts. They seem as upset with Netanyahu as Ahmadinejad is. You may be right about what is not possible. You may be right that implementing any accord is impossible. I didn’t deny that. Nor did Mark. Hizb’Allah’s going to sink Israeli subs? Special HIzb’Allah squads are ready to invade Israel? Hamas has some Syrian assisted C and C over 13 terror groups, etc, etc? You don’t expect readers to buy half this stuff do you? They are beating the drum.
It is crucial to keep Americans committed to Israel and Democracy in the ME. It is crucial there is sufficient support from Europe and others around the world. The narrative has turned a bit in Israel’s favor. Blair and other are putting the heat on. These last few weeks nutjobs like Hamas and iran are making fools of themselves. I suggest we keep this pressure up while we reload. How can that hurt? If there was a real accord with security, you know the majority of Israelis would support it. You know what a bitter pill Liberals swallow reading about Netanyahu the super-peacemaker. We make it clear to the global media who is for peace and who is for war. You also know if you abrogate a 60 year understanding with the US, you will lose critical support. If you tell those around you their religion is defective, they will hate you more. This has nothing to do with preparing for war. This has nothing to do with mad Muslims who won’t change.
I don’t mean to blab. Actually, I have many other things to do. I will slip back and post things that all can appreciate. That Video was pretty funny. Again, I’m just completely frustrated like Mark and Ali, Yesjb and others. My GREAT GEO-POLITICAL VISION is simply to advance a strong narrative of peace and security (the wise man tactic) while preparing for the likely shit. One doesn’t need to be an Einstein to see the smarts in that…..
Michael,
Avid reader of your blog joining the chorus “Get well soon!”.
Prayers for a speedy recovery.
bb
#159 Maxtrue
“The narrative has turned a bit in Israel’s favor. Blair and other are putting the heat on. These last few weeks nutjobs like Hamas and iran are making fools of themselves.”
Unfortunately, European Left narrative, for example, has not turned a bit – and if turned, it turned more anti-Israel. Just visit “The Guardian” site… And Blair is anathema for them, just like Bush. Face it, it is the Euroleft that forms the Euronarrative – so for them peace talks are AIPAC-devised scheme to rob poor Palestinians of their rights.
Many MUSLIMS are not treated well in Muslim countries. And that’s not only the women, but we can start there.
You guys and your silly talk about peaceful co-existence — come back when you’ve substantially altered Islam-the-religion’s attitudes towards females — when we have equal standing and protection in all legal and domestic matters, for example.
Then let’s work on eliminating the whole theologic concept of Dhimmis. And since I’m emphatically not a person of the book, I would appreciate it if enslavement or slaughter of my ilk was taken off the books.
Co-existence or mere tolerance is not enough. It needs to become at least egalitarian, and that is not woven into the fabric of Islam, and has never been. It is the only major religion that at its very core emphasizes and encourages — even exalts — and legislates differences between people. Islam is a flatly legalistic theology, and that it has always been.
Barry Rubin has a nice column today on Islam/ists/militants http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/09/informing-or-misinforming-us-military.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Rubinreports+%28RubinReports%29, and notes that the immediate issue isn’t what is ‘true’Islam, it’s how Islam is being taught and practiced. Globally (except maybe Syria?!http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/04/world/middleeast/04syria.html?_r=1&ref=world –who the hell expected that?) the petrowahabbi version is being busily promulgated, and it is not by any stretch of the imagination an egalitarian or tolerant worldview.
Rabbit
Is that why conservatives are making somewhat of a comeback in Europe? Is that reflective of French polls or Eastern Europe? You really think the majority of Europeans have picked Hamas and Hizb’Allah over Israel? Sure, the Guardian megaphone is quite loud, but like some Liberal press here, it does not locate the Political Center.
In times of great stress and conflict, we return to more traditional values. Yes, the EuroLeft forms the narrative now -one of continued shrinkage, decline, chaos. As I said, the time may be ripe for a counter narrative and in any case, the majority of the Western World, including China and Russia pick Israel over radical Islam, the pretense of Liberal Democracy over the political concepts of Islam. I know this is rather black and white, but think about it. Are you really suggesting the ruling elites anywhere see Islamic governments and radical movements more stabilizing than Israel and its allies? I wouldn’t judge human behavior by who in the Press shouts more loudly. Self-interest is the bottom line, yes?
In America, while the Democrat’s decline is overdetermined, no doubt the anti-Israel stuff is an important factor which Obama has tried to correct these last months. But then what do I know?
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1706/poll-americans-views-of-muslims-object-to-new-york-islamic-center-islam-violence?src=prc-latest&proj=peoplepress
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/06/17/world-poll-views-of-u-s-improve-except-in-muslim-countries/
Rubin makes his own mistake by grouping all “Islamists” into one pot and suggesting they all implicitly support the militant Islamists (that their end is the same). Is Rubin saying the green movement in Iran is against a religious government, or do they just want a religious government to moderate their interpretation of Islam to include human rights and Western Freedoms?
I’m getting tired of this….later
And Pam, I don’t see women protesting Islam in Western street, do you? Maybe you could round up some…..Women poll strongly to the LEFT.
#154 Maxtrue
“Is that why conservatives are making somewhat of a comeback in Europe? ”
I don’t really see a conservative comeback – what I do see is more of ultra-right resurgence. And if one measures conservative stance on Middle East problems by the likes of Sarcozy and David Cameron – they are solidly anti-Israel.
“You really think the majority of Europeans have picked Hamas and Hizb’Allah over Israel? ”
Majority of Europeans has no idea who are Hamas and where Lebanon is located. But they are indoctrinated enough to see Israel as European colonial implant build on oppressing indigenous population.
In fact, one can rely more on China and Russia to stand firm against radical Islam than on Western Europe. And they do not have ideological basis for anti-Israel politics, just traditional Realpolitik; for Western Europe it is core ideology.
I agree with you – counter-narrative is sorely needed, but it is uphill battle.
#155 Maxtrue:
Would protesting the Ground Zero mosque count?
Rabbit, you are right that Max makes a serious error in conflating the American and European right with respect to Israel. While there are still vestiges of the old antisemitic right in the US (e. g. Pat Buchanan) right wingers in the US are now probably the most fervent non-Jewish supporters of Israel in the world. The European right is what it has always been. They don’t need “indocrination”, they hate Israel because it is Jewish, always have and always will. Of course the same is true of the European left and center.
Max, not sure what point you’re trying to make. You said the vast majority of Muslims want peaceful co-existence. Terry, a Jew who has lived in a Muslim country, is saying you’re talking through your …hat, and I am saying your idea of peaceful co-existence is superficial and parochial, and ignores some systemic issues that belie your assumptions.
What on Earth does that have to do with Western women not rioting against Islam in the streets, or your simplistic notion that (apparently) women are leftwing suckers?
#149
Sharia means different things to different people. It means something different to a liberal, a Wahabbist, a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc.
For example, Islamic law forbids interest. Lots of banks in Saudi Arabia have interest. They just call them something different, like “profits” or “benefits”.
I did not actually say that Islam is changing towards something positive. I do agree that the trend is towards the worse. I just said that it could potentially happen.
And Max, Rubin was reviewing a book, and used the author’s definition of ‘Islamists’ as political Muslims whose primary goal is Islamic expansionism and the establishment of strict Islamic governance. ‘Militant Islamists’ use violence to achieve the same goal. Most contemporary Islamist groups tacitly or openly support Militant Islamists.
So no, Iranian greens are not Islamists. They are Muslims with a political grievance. Likewise Kurds, etc.
His point was that to think of Islamists (thus-defined) like the Muslim Brotherhood as moderate just because they don’t directly employ violence, and to try to use them against those who openly espouse violence (like AQ) is a dangerously short-sighted and naive approach. The enemy of my enemy is still my enemy, and maybe the more cunning one.
With the reach of today’s technology, an honest media, an extension of a critically thinking educational process within and beyond academia, would be a game changer. Chances currently? Forget it; interests too vested.
More Internet access; shoot the message over and around the road blocks. And inform “teachers” what education is, especially if you’re paying for it.
Remember those cell phone-enabled images from Tehran.
Pam:
“to think of Islamists (thus-defined) like the Muslim Brotherhood as moderate just because they don’t directly employ violence, and to try to use them against those who openly espouse violence (like AQ) is a dangerously short-sighted and naive approach. The enemy of my enemy is still my enemy, and maybe the more cunning one.”
Absolutely agree.
The Muslim Brotherhood isn’t exactly the enemy of Al Qaeda, but other than that, I agree too.
The emphasis on Muslims in general wanting to coexist is misleading.
It is the leaders (tyrants)and their supporters and military who call the shots. And they generally have no interest in coexistence. They want Israel and the Jews in general dead and gone and have said so many times. Many in these countries such as Syria, as Michael has pointed have a visceral hatred of Israel and Jews. It was thus in Nazi Germany and the difference is not that great.
In areas such as the West Bank there are those who have benefited from an economic revival and are more inclined to coexistence. But in the end it doesn’t matter since it is Abbas and the like who call the shots not the local entrepreneurs.
It does take many persuasive people to start agitation and I believe that this is happening to some degree amongst Israeli Arabs as well.
As for coexistence in general, Terry’s experiences in the Mahgreb speaks volumes and one has only to look at the Paris suburbs to see what some people think about coexistence. It doesn’t matter if you as a person think Jews are great and everyone could learn from Israel. You have little power to make your point heard.
What matters is those that have the power and can persuade the world of Israel’s evil and that the Jews are the devil’s spawn. And thanks to Islamists, Hezb’allah, Hamas Turkey, Iran and those in the West that for whatever reason find it profitable, convenient or just “feel good” to go along. These acolytes or better, “running dogs” have been persuaded (in some cases little or no persuasion was necessary) that the only democracy in the area is an “evil empire” are the real problem.
Maxtrue can tell me to chill out all he wants, but the times are becoming more problematic for the Jews as the days pass then they ever were in the 30′s. Communications are better, the degree of virulence is much more open and the weapons massed against the Jews are much more powerful. And in the 30′s there were not hundreds of thousands of Nazis throughout Western Europe and America advocating Nazi ideology.
yesjb,
I wonder though about the convenient, even necessary external distraction of an enemy to resist as a safety valve for domestic grievances, the equivalent of counterrevolutionary yankee imperialists. I agree also that, no matter how fierce the dog, the hand holding the leash is the real problem.
#160 Ali.
The point I was making was that while I most certainly believe (because there is ample historical evidence) that religions change, that I do not say it is impossible given the right conditions, for Islam to change, at what point does reform become a religion that is no longer the historical Islam?
I used to get into this discussion often with a good friend of mine, a very smart guy, who was educated in French schools & also very educated in Islamic studies, I might add, who came from a family that had come to Morocco from Iraq about 300 years ago & founded a ”zaouia” (a religious brotherhood), a very committed Muslim, what some might call a ”true believer” – he could quote whole suras from the Qur’an & he actually understood what he was quoting.
Many circumstances can cause major changes in a religious tradition. If you read a bit about the development of Judaism, you can see this plainly.
Your example of Saudi banks is correct, an appropriate example. The same phenomenon happened in Judaism, which also had a prohibition on interest.
Paul S.
Regarding your first point..I’m not sure it applied in the 30′s since the US despite Roosevelt’s sympathy for the British plight kept out of the war until Pearl Harbour and then Hitler declared war on the US. The Germans already had plans to develop long-range bombers and ballistic missiles to attack America. The former never were developed although a few early jet-powered bombers did fly. The latter of course did terrorize London.
Does this sound familiar?
Nowadays, no convenient external distraction is required since the Administration believes there is no real threat to America present.
yesjb: “The emphasis on Muslims in general wanting to coexist is misleading.
It is the leaders (tyrants)and their supporters and military who call the shots.” Absolutely. This is the biggest reason why it will be difficult to turn around the Muslim world. I am not prepared to say that Islam is “inherently” more violent or less accommodating than other religions. But what I observe is that Muslims are far less likely to take personal responsibility than Christians and Jews and tend to just follow the “strong horse”, as Lee Smith says. We have been saying for decades now that the Iranian people do not like the mullahs and will eventually get rid of them. But it is like waiting for Godot.
Paul: “I wonder though about the convenient, even necessary external distraction of an enemy to resist as a safety valve for domestic grievances”. Of course. I have been saying this for a long time, that this is the main reason for the persistence of the Israeli-Arab conflict. Arab leaders stoke this conflict precisely to distract their people from the fact that their own regimes are so miserable. It DOES NOT PAY for them to resolve it.
yesjb,
My point was that, from the perspective of Tehran, Damascus, Gaza, Caracas…, external “threats” serve a useful purpose; if regimes ever actually made peace or destroyed them, ongoing domestic discontent would need some other distracting safety valve, probably uncomfortably close to a regime’s home base. The healthy presence along with a controlled portrait of “our enemy” are thus valued assets.
Terry,
A culinary question. My local market had “Moroccan carrots” in their salad bar tonight. Something you might recognize, or a veggie equivalent of American “French” fries perhaps? Looked tasty; I should have noted the ingredients accompanying the carrots.
You beat me to it, Gary.
I’m reminded of “1984″; the war was ongoing, only the enemy changed periodically.
#170 Paul S.
I can recommend 3 good Moroccan-style carrot salades.
1. The easiest – grated carrots, raisons, orange juice, & a spoon of sugar.
Serve real cold, great in summer. Some people add orange-flower water & lemon
juice, you don’t have to but it’s authentic.
2. Carrots with Cumin. Boil carrots in lightly salted water. Let cool. Slice.
Add cumin, salt, pepper, maybe crushed garlic, a little olive oil, chopped
parsley, a touch of lemon juice, & some sweet red pepper. Serve room temperature.
3. Boil peeled carrots, drain, let cool. Slice. Add: olive oil, sugar, lemon juice,
chopped fresh coriander, red hot pepper, & sweet red pepper.
I didn’t give measurements, I never really measure, just do it according to your taste. Moroccan cooking is the best.
Sometime this week, I’m going to try making tripe with chickpeas & dried sweet peppers, I finally found a butcher in Eilat who has almost everything – supermarket butcher dept. have zero variety, they sell chicken shnitzels mostly.
#160 Ali.
I’ll add something to my above comment & it applies to all religions.
Get rid of the myths – there is a scientific way to study religion, it’s origins, & it’s development in an historical context.
For example, for Islam – get rid of the myth about Abraham being the ancestor of the Arabs. This is historically impossible. Put the Qur’an in chronological order (as best as possible). Understand how the Qur’an was put together & when. Admit the borrowings from other religions. Understand exactly who & what Mohamed was in the historical context of 7th Century Arabia. Do you see where I’m going?
Thanks for the recipes, Terry.
I’m no cook, but these sound easy enough. Every once in a while I find a carrot, a pepper, an ear of summer corn that is so wonderfully sweet that what accompanies it doesn’t seem to matter.
@ Shavua Tov Terry,
I noticed that you really live in Eilat !
How can you stand such a heat and so much noise from the crowds of tourists ?
Greetings,
Paul S.
Moroccan cooking is often labour-intensive, very time consuming.
The best Moroccan salad (my opinion) is roasted (grilled) red & green peppers, chopped tomatoes, lots of garlic, salt, pepper, olive oil, & a touch of lemon juice.
But, it’s a lot of work to grill the peppers over a fire, peel & seed them, & cut into small pieces, then peel & seed the tomatoes, peel & crush the garlic, but the result is worth the effort.
Anyway, enjoy!
#176 Dr. Trumpeldor.
Shavua Tov gam lecha.
Actually, I like the heat, I used to live in Marrakech, it was usually 38*C in summer but sometimes going up to 45-46 even rarely 48. But, winter was cold in Marrakech but in Eilat, there’s almost no winter at all.
Also, Eilat is very quiet, calm except in August on the beachfront when we have a lot of tourists, even so, I wouldn’t call it noisy.
Also, no humidity & it almost never rains (last year, it rained twice, a few drops).
Sure beats humid, rainy, gray Paris!
I’ll take this occasion to wish you a healthy & prosperous New Year, Shana Tova.
#176 Dr. Trumpeldor.
It might get noisier, I read that Hezbollah missiles can now reach as far as Eilat.
Feel better Michael!
Sorry people, but it is a holiday weekend here. I didn’t run from fire…….
Pam, you asked us “guys” to stop the silly talk about peaceful co-existence until things changed for women in Muslim countries. I pointed out that Western “gals” don’t seem to be bitching. Maybe you should address that…,yes?
As far as Rubin commenting on another writer, he did go into his explanation of Islamists, what was wrong with the writer’s definitions and in that, he did not distinguish between Islamists. Perhaps you missed that too.
Yes, Terry lives in the ME and I live here, witnessing Canadian, American and even South American Muslims who do not fit your characterization. I have met many Muslims from Egypt, Morocco, etc.etc. in NYC. I’ve even been to GZ rallies. Yes these Muslims tend to be more Liberal with more money and don’t exactly represent the “street”. but they are so far from the characterizations of Muslims, it is funny. There is a connection between poverty and the power of religious dogma. Let’s take a look at our own prison system and the recruiting by Muslims. What is the message?
I repeat, the more educated masses do not necessarily proscribe to the bullshit from above. If you think reformation has not happened in a significant percentage, I will wait for Michael to come back and stand beside my defense of the reasonable. Leo, Ali, S5000 and others know exactly the point I’m making.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=187132
Now you all have a great Sunday…..
#181 Maxtrue.
You just can’t get over the typical stereotypes of Muslims.
I hate to break it to you, but socio-economic status is not correlated with religiousity. Poverty has very little to do with fanaticism. Even Western education is not necessarily an indication of liberal values.
Often, it is exactly the opposite.
The ”street” is not some undifferentiated mass of ignorant fanatics.
Support of ”fundamentalism” is more an urban phenomenon, not a rural phenomenon.
Part of the rise in Islamism is the result of increased urbanization. It is also in large measure due to increased education.
Muslims everywhere often tell Westerners what they think Westerners want to hear, quite often their beliefs & behavior change according to the audience.
Hi Paul S.
My apologies in missing your point which you and Gary stated.
I was looking at a different perspective and not the one intended. I do agree, however, with your explanation.
Maxtrue,
One should look at the teaching going on in Muslim communities.
We have had 2 recent episodes of well-off Muslims plotting terrorism in the Toronto-Ottawa area. Theses were well-educated “everyday” Muslims who suprisingly took the time to train as terrorists against the country who gave them a new life (some even being born here) and against their neighbours with whom they were supposed friends.
There are 2 prominent muslim groups in Canada, one who believes that Muslims can do no wrong and make excuses for and support terrorists and support hamas hezballah and the like and the other the exact opposite.
Until recently the former had the upper hand but hopefully that is changing.
We also have the curse of the leftist media which undoubtedly has some effect.
Perhaps a closer scrutiny of the imams and teachers and what type of information, viewpoint, interpretations they are passing on to their students is crucial.
Pain exists only in the mind. A neuron fires somewhere in your body, your brain gets the signal and interprets it as pain. Signal strength = pain strength.
When I was younger I experienced agony from something like the medieval torture known as the boot when my ankle was repeatedly crushed over a period of several months. If you want to avoid opiates and stay awake you can simply learn to ignore the pain. The best pain killer is daytime TV – soaps and empty minded comedies. Also French farces. You can back it up with opiates but they really aren’t needed. Making up and telling jokes helps.
#146 Ali
Yes, I understand that, I am not a moron. My point, which seems to be intentionally lost on everybody here, so I’ll stop making it, is that a declaration from the PA that the conflict is over, as part of a peace agreement with Israel, would be a gigantic step forward towards normalization and acceptance of Israel in the region, along the same path that has now brought us peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. The situation is tenuous, it may not succeed, but recent events give one hope that the good guys will finally pull it out this time.
Terry:
Even Western education is not necessarily an indication of liberal values.
So true! Some of the most radical anti-Israel agitation occurs on campuses in Western countries, spearheaded by Arabs and Muslims. It’s one of the most disturbing realities. We’ve been told that anti-Semitic and anti-Western animus is a result of living in closed societies; but my experience in the West, in and out of the university, is that living in a free and open society doesn’t seem to ‘free’ or ‘open’ many Arab and Muslim minds.
I tend to agree with MarkC … so long as you take steps to maintain (as best as possible) Israeli security, you must also pursue peace, even if it currently seems like a pipe dream. There’s a double standard applied to Israel–we all know this–and if you think it makes Israel’s standing in the world worse, you ain’t seen nothing yet if Israel were to give a big f-you to the US and all the countries trying to get talks going along. Peace with the Palestinians might not be possible, but Israel can’t be seen as the spoiler.
#186, #188
Why? Isn’t Oslo technically that declaration?
Don’t get me wrong, I totally support peace as long as it isn’t “peace”.
More information about the peas process that you won’t get in the MSM: http://www.peas.org/factsandfigures.php
Michael, I hope you feel better soon!
I support whirled peas too, just not the jihadist variety.
Has a breakdown of Gitmo detainees been done, not by country, but by economic status, education, rural, urban, etc.? Yes, it’s a small subset of committed jihadists, but it might shed light on the poverty/radicalism issue if a clear pattern emerged.
Many of those getting media coverage that I’ve read about since 9/11 seemed more reflective of economic and educational achievement than the life of a rural Afghan tribesman. Of course, that’s not to suggest a Taliban intelligentsia filtering down to the foot soldier in AfPak.
Ali:
Why? Isn’t Oslo technically that declaration?
Yeah, but just declaring it and then doing nothing or doing things to intentionally scuttle the continuation of talks isn’t enough; Israel needs to at least appear to be making a good faith effort. It’s true that Israel already has made good faith efforts as per Oslo–you’re correct–and it must continue to do so, albeit having learned from mistakes of the past. Bottom line, imho, is that Israel can’t just give up on Oslo and the general idea of a two-state solution.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/land-or-a-nuclear-umbrella-1.312426
Here’s a good opinion by Akiva Eldar, expressing much more clearly what I’ve been trying to say – that peace with the Palestinians is not a matter of left wing sentimentality, but a security imperative.
Semite5000 – the appearance of making a good faith effort will not be enough. The sides must deliver, and the onus will be on Israel in particular. The Obama administration is staking a lot on the success of these negotiations, and will not be understanding of Bibi’s domestic political situation. There will be a terrible falling out with the U.S. if Bibi lets the settlements trump a Palestinian state.
I second a point Max made:
from
“The Perils of the Peace Process: Talks Will Weaken Abbas”
John Bolton
http://tinyurl.com/2ulbew8
“By diverting U.S. time and attention from more pressing Middle East problems, particularly Iran’s nuclear weapons program and its worldwide support for terrorism, peace process diplomacy allows graver threats to grow.”
#196 Paul S.
John Bolton has it about right. The entire ”peace process” should be abandonned, the status quo is just fine for the moment re: the Palestinians. There are more urgent issues which must be dealt with. The correct term perhaps is ”benign neglect” – and the best thing to advance some kind of arrangement with the Palestinians would be for the U.S. & the EU to end financial support to the PA.
Israel’s political & intellectual elites are equally guilty – this Palestinian BS allows them to distract attention from necessary domestic issues, much in the same way as Arab regimes use Israel to distract from their own ghastly failures domestically.
I don’t buy the argument that there will be any major ”falling out” with the US.
For sure, Obama will be annoying but there is a limit to what he can do, the likely result will be a papering-over of disagreement. In any case, the complexion of Congress is about to change & Obama will surely be a one-term president.
In any case, events in the Middle-East are likely to over-take the Obama administration’s preoccupation with ”Palestine” ……
#187 Semite5000.
I don’t like all those ”easy” assumptions & stereotypes of Middle-Easterners by Westerners who have zero experience in actually living in a Middle-Eastern country & knowing the people as individuals. It’s as ignorant as the stereotypes of the West that I heard back home. It’s not just intellectually dishonest but intellectually lazy.
With no criticism of Mark intended; after all, several of you live with the details of ongoing day-to-day tensions I have the luxury of being far removed from, I couldn’t help doing some mental editing as I read Mark’s post:
“The sides must deliver, and the onus will be on Israel in particular. The (fill-in-the-blank-by-year American) administration is staking a lot on the success of these negotiations”
Terry,
“easy” and “lazy” are the keys. Also, contrary evidence might disturb warm, comfortable beliefs. What I heard from some young Asians, whose parents had never met an American but had sent them off with dire warnings, was that my countrymen were…selfish, lazy, greedy, violent and all owned guns. Two Japanese students, who asked to see my gun, were quite surprised to learn I didn’t own any firearms. After all, they and their parents had seen American movies…
Good grief, I thought; funny and sad simultaneously.
I was tempted to talk about ethnocentrism and maybe projection, but thought it better not to.
Dr. Trumpeldor.
There is an article you might find of interest at the American Thinker site, ”Dross in Yet Another Islamic ‘Golden Age’ by Andrew G. Bostom.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/dross_in_yet_another_islamic_g.html
C’est au sujet de Mutazilites.
#200 Paul S.
It comes down to ”knowing the players” & most certainly, Westerners do not know the players as individuals, have not lived with them over any length of time, do not speak their language, & have no intimate knowledge of the societies they pontificate about. While I would say that there is a very direct link from Islamic ideology as expressed in the Qur’an & other religious texts to a politically oriented Islamism, the decision (conscious or unconscious) to become ”radical” is dependant on many personal characteristics, such characteristics being quite opaque to most Westerners.
DebkaFile, everyone’s favourite unreliable source of information, has an interesting take on the ”Peace Process” & FM Lieberman’s rather realistic remarks which have brought him considerable criticism.
DebkaFile, ”Israel’s Foreign Minister Reflected Washington’s Limited Goal.”
http://www.debka.com/article/9014/
This is certainly plausible & would explain, at least to a certain extent, Netanyahu’s sudden enthousiasm for ”Peace” …..
Netanyahu’s warm embrace of Abbas could well be the kiss of death for Abbas. The ”reverse sell” is a time-honoured technique, I’ve used it often myself in business. I kind of like the idea of Netanyahu shoving good-will & moderation down Abbas’ throat until he chokes on it.
#201
Maybe you should. I think racism plays an important part in Arab societies. Projection plays an even bigger part.
#204
I hope he chokes soon (but not literally, he looks like a teddy bear). Lots of photos with hugs and kisses preferably with female negotiators would be great.
@Terry,
Thanks for this great article about mutazilites !
The last illusions I harboured about a possible reform of islam by people keeping reason over faith were shattered.
Along with Spencer,Andrew Bostow is a great voice to spread truth about our enemies
alah has created coran which was given to mohamed as such,no reformation is therefore possible
#205 Ali.
A discussion of racism & projection would be interesting. Racism in Moroccan society is endemic, so pervasive that you would have trouble describing the groups that make up Moroccan society without such a discussion, in Morocco, there are no individuals, only members of an ethnic group, a tribe, a clan, a family – status determined by ancestry in a hierarchy of groups.
As to Abbas choking, I like the image of Abbas embraced by Netanyahu flanked by a bunch of women negotiators. Add in a few rabbis for good measure.
Abbas & his Fatah crooks remind me of the Socialist Arab Nationalists we had in Morocco in the 60′s & 70′s who caused so much irreparable damage to the country.
Terry, Debka, Bostom, etc. etc? You really are trying to add to Michael’s pain aren’t you?
You lecture me about making assumptions about the Middle East and you go on about the Americas? For each event that involves a Muslim, how many TENS OF THOUSANDS of Muslims here are good citizens, many serving in our armed forces, legal system, first responder, police etc? How many Muslims serve the interests of Israel as citizens? Do you really think you can brush aside the majority of Muslims in your spin?
And then you make uniformed comments about the political system here, arrogantly declaring nothing will happen should Israel break with 60 years of agreement with the US. You declare Obama a one term President. You have been a mouth piece here for Spencer and Debka, ignoring even the Green revolution’s rejection of authoritarianism and not “Islam”. You pretend there isn’t any connection between ignorance and poverty and militant Islam. Yes, Bolton is your guide. Oh the horror of the reactor. It will lead to bombs! And Bomb NK too!
Thanks Paul.
I guess people here forget that just several decades ago Christian theology was friggin frightening. Non Christians need conversion. They’re going to Hell. And has anyone listened to some of the rants by Israeli settlers, the ones who murdered Rabin? Was that good Terry?
Oh, please forgive me. I am doing what is uniquely Jewish. I must be playing the wise man trying to be objective instead of blindly following my partisan talking points. And which should I follow? My American talking points or my Jewish ones?
I enjoyed listening the Abbas tear Ahmadinejad a new asshole. You know Terry, for such a small geographically location, you certainly make generalizations that reach completely around the world. Today is the American Memorial Day……
The American Memorial Day.
Feel better Michael. We sure could use your common sense…
Breaking news:
“Defense Minister Ehud Barak signed a military cooperation pact with Russian Defense Minister Antoly Serdyukov in Moscow on Monday.”
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=187255
http://itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=15465397&PageNum=0
MarkC
There will be a terrible falling out with the U.S. if Bibi lets the settlements trump a Palestinian state.
If the settlement-building moratorium isn’t extended, Abbas will use that as an excuse not to negotiate. The talks will be dead before Hanukkah and Israel will be viewed as the spoiler.
@Terry
Wasn’t sure if you were criticizing me for having an opinion about an aspect of the Arab (and certain Muslim) mindset yet having never lived in an Arab country. In any event, I don’t need to live in an Arab country to know that:
A) Anti-Israel and anti-Western sentiment is high in the Islamic Middle East
B) Most of my encounters with Arabs and Muslims in the West, usually at universities where the world could be their oyster, has showed me that ‘education’ isn’t always the answer, and that despite being opened to new ideas, the anti-Israeli, anti-Semitic and general anti-Western attitudes seem to persist.
Y’all are making spots appear before my eyes.
===
I figgered this thread was reserved for well wishes for our hosts speedy recovery. A little decorum around the mans sickbed eh?
===
It has nothing to do with poverty, although poverty does increase the available pool of suicidal losers.
Last I heard Andy Bostom was accusing Robert Spencer of plagerism. Has that been resolved?
Who exactly does Abbas/Mazen speak for? He’s very obviously not negotiating on behalf of HAMAS or HizbAllah. He doesn’t control anything except the US and Israeli armed PA, and he’s technically not supposed to control that either. Abbas/Mazen could run the ink out of ten thousand pens signing one hundred thousand agreements and none of them would be binding on anybody or anything on either side at any time.
I’m declaring Obama a one term president. He’s already surpassed Jimmy Carter on the general dislike index (I made that up so don’t ask for a link). His policies and stated goals have all been abject failures. Unless of course, he planned to crash the economy, put millions of Americans out of work, and lose the war. In which case he’s the greatest thing since sliced bread…
I’m also saying that Israel will survive this US President. Just as it survived Eisenhower (he of the one-sided arms embargos), Carter, and Clinton. Israel will survive without the US if it needs to (again), because survival isn’t a right, it’s a responsibility.
OUT
DAMNED
SPOT,
R
“@Marxtrue,
“You declare Obama a one term President”
Given the trend,I humbly share the same opinion .
“I guess people here forget that just several decades ago Christian theology was friggin frightening. Non Christians need conversion”
Well,christian theology”per se” is not the problem,people like richard lionheart,goddefroi de bouillon,spanish inquisition acted AGAINST” core christian teachings”
“And has anyone listened to some of the rants by Israeli settlers, the ones who murdered Rabin? Was that good Terry?”
Well ,I see scores of Israeli killed by muslim terrorists wheras 99.9% of “settlers” are brave citizens who want to live normal life without harming anyone !
Since they mostly live on soils which were barren and void of human presence,what harm are they causing ???
Their are entitled to settle on all Former British Mandate over Palestine according to 1920 San Remo protocols !
A brief remaider,if you do not agree,see your lawyer …
Summary of Israel’s Legal Rights to the West Bank
Ted Belman – 12/7/2009
1. According to international law, the Jewish people are the sole beneficiary of Self-determination in the land of Palestine. The rights of the Jewish People to Palestine are enshrined in 3 legally binding international treaties. These rights have not expired and are still in full force and effect.
a. The 1920 San Remo Resolution, (Passed by the San Remo Supreme Council. This council was given the power of disposition by the Great Powers and was convened for the purpose of dividing what was the Ottoman Empire i.e redrawing the borders of the Middle East and giving its land to its original inhabitants.)
b. The 1922 Mandate for Palestine,
c. The 1924 Anglo-American Convention on Palestine.
2. The British Mandatory was not a sovereign. All its rights and obligations relating to Palestine, emanated from the Mandate of Palestine. The Mandatory was a trustee for the League of Nations, and it was not given the power to take any steps which violated the terms of the Mandate. It could not change the terms of the Mandate at its pleasure, as it did in the following two cases:
1. Ceding 77.5 % of Palestine to Trans Jordan (in 1922)
2. Ceding the Golan to Syria (in 1923) .
3. The Mandatory violated article 5 & article 27 of the Mandate when it ceded the and 77.5% of Palestine to Trans Jordan and the Golan to Syria:
ART. 5. “The Mandatory shall be responsible for seeing that no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of the Government of any foreign Power.”
ART. 27: The Mandatory had no right to amend the Mandate terms without the full consent of the League of Nations or its Mandates Commission.
4. In the 1924 Anglo American Convention the U.S. agreed to support Great Britain as a Mandatory so long as the Mandatory abided by the San Remo Resolution. The sole purpose of the Resolution regarding Palestine was:
a) Drawing the borders of Palestine,
b) Reconstituting Palestine as a National Homeland for the Jewish world – wide,
c) Recognizing the Jewish People’s historical connection to the land.
There was not even one word in the Mandate or the Anglo American convention about creating an Arab land in Palestine
5. The Lodge-Fish Resolution of September 21, 1922, was a Joint Resolution passed by both houses of the U.S. Congress and signed by President Warren Harding, endorsing the Balfour Declaration with slight variations. This made the text of the Joint Resolution part of the law of the United States until this very day.
“Resolved by the Senate and House of representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that the United states of America favors the establishment in Palestine of a national Home for the Jewish people…”
6. Under American Law when a joint resolution is passed by both the Senate and the House of Representatives in an identical form and then signed by the President, it becomes the Law of the U.S.
7. Both the Lodge- Fish Resolution and the Anglo American Convention underwent the above noted process (see point 6). Therefore reconstituting Palestine as a National homeland for the Jewish People worldwide and recognizing their historical connection to the land became part of US LAW.
8. The 1924 Anglo American Convention on Palestine included the whole text of the Palestine Mandate. The Palestine Mandate included the Balfour declaration preamble committing to reconstitute Palestine as a National homeland for the Jewish People worldwide and to recognize their historical connection to the land. It did not mention anything about creating an Arab State in Palestine. The Mandate explicitly prohibited ceding any land in Palestine to any foreign powers or changing the terms of the Mandate without the League’s expressed permission. That permission had to be unanimously passed by all members. That never occurred. (see Grief Pg 204. )
9. The significance of the above (see #8) is that no decision made by The US or Britain, may be in conflict with the terms of the Mandate or the Anglo American Convention. France, Italy and Japan sat on the San Remo Supreme Council – along with the US and Britain – approving the San Remo decision. After the Supreme Council approved the San Remo decision , the resolution was further approved by the League of Nations and its 51 members. This resolution became a binding international Treaty. The Treaty became Res Judicata. Consequently all the above noted countries are bound by their own approval. Thus they are prevented from changing their approval without Israel’s consent.
10. No decision, Policy or measure taken by subsequent American administrations may be in conflict with the Terms of the Palestine Mandate. (The sole purpose of the Mandate was-to reconstitute Palestine as a national homeland for the Jewish People world- wide and recognize their historical connection with the land.) Under the Doctrine of Estoppels the US is estopped from making policies, taking any steps, measures, spending any monies on policies, which run contrary to its covenants and undertaking under the Anglo-American Convention of 1924, because among other things they are violating US Law.
11. Both their Excellencies, the Emir Faisal and Abdullah approved the League of Nations decisions. At different points in history, Emir Faisal, in an agreement with Weitzman, agreed to support the Zionist claim on both sides of the Jordan river and later Abdullah, agreed with Churchill to support the Zionist claim to the territory from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean, including Judea and Samaria and Gaza, and the Golan Heights. The Supreme Council did not want to approve the final borders of Palestine on both sides of the Jordan until they had the approval of Emir Feisal –see Professor Gauthier re: minutes of San Remo Conference
12. All rights emanating from the three international treaties were approved by the League of Nations and inherited by the United Nations. They did not expire. The United Nations had no right to vary them.
The UN has no right to pass a resolution which ran contrary to an existing earlier decision/ resolution on its books.
The UN or Britain are not sovereigns and had no right to change borders at its pleasure.
The same Supreme Council that drew the borders for Iraq Syria and Lebanon, gave Israel the right of to its borders from the Jordan to the Mediterranean. This was approved by the League, its members Britain, France, Japan and Italy. They have no right to vary that which they had approved.
14. The General Assembly does not have the right to create enforceable resolutions or borders. So even if the Arabs had accepted the Green Line, these borders would not have been legally enforceable.
15. – The Partition Plan only demarcated the cease fire lines. It had no binding legal force;
- It was not approved by the Arabs. In order for the Green Line to have had any sort of legal significance that approval would have been necessary at the very least;
- The General Assembly has no power to change borders. Therefore its decision or advice was insignificant from a legal perspective.
-The UN has no power to vary an existing valid international treaty which the League of Nations – its predecessor – had approved. (Res Judicata). The UN inherited from the League of Nations the granting to Israel of the lands between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River.
-The UN has no power to draw new agreements which run contrary to existing valid International Agreements or treaties which it had inherited from its predecessor, the League of Nations.
- No borders decided by the San Remo Conference and approved by the League of Nations, save those of Israel were ever challenged or changed;
- In 1923 Britain – the Mandatory and Trustee of the Palestine Mandate of 1922, and of the British American Convention of 1924 – contrary to the explicit terms of the Mandate, ceded the Golan to Syria. (See “From Time Immemorial, Pg—236″);
“This treaty which was concluded by the principal powers, in affect, as representative of the League of Nations, is binding on the League, particularly after it approved it. The League cannot therefore change the mandate provisions. (Nor, of course, does the Mandatory have that right)” (*1651 pg 404) Gauthier
Significant precedents:
1. The Vienna decision on treaties: According to Howard Grief:
Rights gained from Mandates don’t cease at the expiration of the Mandate
The principle of law that rights once granted or recognized under a treaty or other legal instrument do not expire with the expiration of that treaty or instrument is now codified in article 70(1)(b) of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (the Treaty on Treaties). This article states that “unless the treaty otherwise provides or the parties otherwise agree, the termination of a treaty… does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination”.
As a result, Jewish rights to Palestine and the Land of Israel remain in full force today under international law.
The South Africa decision on Mandates — Basically says the same thing –Rights gained by a country through a mandate don’t expire at the expiration of the mandate. (Professor Gauthier)
Article 80 of The UN charter—No right gained by a country through a mandate will expire as a result of the expiration of the mandate.
“Defense Minister Ehud Barak signed a military cooperation pact with Russian Defense Minister Antoly Serdyukov in Moscow on Monday.”
Looks like Israelis are hedging their bets.
I think peace agreement is very dangerous for WB/Gaza Arabs unless their brethren will resolve question of Palestinian concentration camps.
Just imagine all these people moving to newly created Palestinian state. Potential of civil war is huge.
Alternatively, should they chose to stay in their host countries their so called Arab brothers will just kill them of.
Terry:
This is certainly plausible & would explain, at least to a certain extent, Netanyahu’s sudden enthousiasm for ”Peace” …..
Netanyahu’s warm embrace of Abbas could well be the kiss of death for Abbas. The ”reverse sell” is a time-honoured technique, I’ve used it often myself in business. I kind of like the idea of Netanyahu shoving good-will & moderation down Abbas’ throat until he chokes on it.
Thank you for making the point I’ve been making over and over again.
Israel follows this policy and
A) PA balks, world knows once again which party is at fault and rejectionist.
B) Or, some sort of agreement is made. Israel is awarded all sorts of additional security bonuses (a la the Akiva Eldar article MarkC linked above) because of it, and gains yet more military hardware, maybe aid, international respect and recognition, which means more business contracts and even stronger economy.
Sure, option B is rife with dangers, too, but I think Israel will be in a worse position if Abbas is able to make Israel look like the peace spoiler.
(#214) How many of those host states are currently contemplating not waiting for those people to move out on their own?
If Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and several Gulf States all decide to round up their resident Palestinians, and deported them to the new Islamic nationlet of West Bankistan, whether or not they wanted to be rounded up and deported, wouldn’t that be an ethnic cleansing?
That’s not a rhetorical question, (although it’s not exactly directed to you, Leo, I’m just riffing off your lead here), because its already happened, several times. Kuwait 1991, Jordan 1970…
But all of that is kinda irrelevant, Abu Mazen doesn’t have the authority to speak for anybody that matters. Nobody cared what Rudolf Hess was offering either…
TIME
TABLES,
R
#215 semite500
“..PA balks, world knows once again which party is at fault and rejectionist.”
I don’t share your optimism. “World” will most probably accuse Israel, as usual.
Dear Michael: I hope you are alive and recovering, and that this comments section has given you a few healthy laughs. Nobody here offers you any competition, that’s for damn sure.
Enjoy the American Labor Day holiday and get back to writing as soon as your dope-addled brain will let you do so with any modicum of coherence.
Miss You –
Pam
#215 Semite5000.
The mainstream media is already setting the stage for blaming Israel for failed talks. Even Fox (I just watched it a few minutes ago) does it. Did you see the cover of Time Magazine (aka Slime Magazine) – the big Magen David in daisies, the article saying that Israelis don’t care about peace, Israel is prosperous & Israelis are having a good time, living it up, blah, blah, blah. I can’t remember the name of the asshole who wrote the article, just another of the jerk leftists following the party line.
I wasn’t saying that the Debka interpretation was correct, by the way. I have no idea what Netanyahu is doing, I just thought it was interesting & somewhat plausible.
Also, in a different post, you asked if I was criticising you. No, I wasn’t.
#208 Maxtrue.
You’ll have to wait until tomorrow for a reply to your post.
Render: “(although it’s not exactly directed to you, Leo, I’m just riffing off your lead here)”
I understand that. I cannot say how this process will look like exactly, but it is apparent that idea is not stillborn. We will see all sorts of human rights violations and I am absolutely certain Abbas understand this very well and this is why “Right of Return” is probably one of the most important questions (probably even more important than question of Jerusalem) for him and at the same time the very discussion of it is totally unacceptable for Israelis.
The best solution would be for Obama to insist on Arab states accepting their Palestinian brothers with full citizen rights for those who were born in their respective states at very least. The most importantly, peace agreement must be a package deal involving everybody. Half-baked solutions never work.
Rabbit:
I don’t share your optimism. “World” will most probably accuse Israel, as usual.
Well, we know that already, but there are still a number of important countries whose support Israel needs.
You might recall that the French, not the US were Israel’s main ally and weapons supplier until the 1960′s.
Even Eisenhower later admitted forcing the Israeli’s out of Sinai in ’56 was a big mistake.
The American people have been steadfast friends of Israel for a long time as has Congress and the Senate.
But Administration has been up and down like a toilet seat, while the State Department has been consistent since before 1948 in its animosity and antipathy.
It is the mandate of a country’s governing body to do what it thinks is best for its citizens even if it turns out to be not so good. and Israel is no exception. The interests of the US and Israel do not always coincide and with the present White House and State Dept., they diverge significantly.
And Maxtrue, it doesn’t matter what most Muslims think. They’re not in control of the situation and will not be determining the course of action.
Today is Memorial Day? Did it move?
I thought it was in May. (Indy 500, etc)
Today is the anniversary of VJ Day though.
There will come a time Maxtrue, that US/Israel relationship will not be so special and will be more like US/UK or US/Canada.
Your comments on Christianity are not as relevant today as they were in the past.
True Jews were tortured and murdered and crucified in Roman times (1000′s not just one)
True they were butchered by Christians during large time-lines of Christianity.
True they were butchered by the Nazis which had their own religion and were able to use mediaeval Christian animus towards Jews as a helping hand.
But it is only the Islam which has persisted owing to the anti-Jewish religious thought which continues with their religious leaders and who provide the impetus for hatred and an exterminationist outlook towards Israel and the West.
It is they who control enough of the masses to implement their policy.
And it is they who paradoxically influence the left in the West to cooperate with their aims…through fear, cowardice and hatred of those that disagree.
Render, you do realize that I said that a peace agreement or accord is very much in US/Israeli interests. I stated several reasons why, which have not been refuted. And it is clearly the 60 year understanding with the US, that Israel supports the Land for Peace agreement, the two state solution which Clinton offered Arafat. Nothing here so far has refuted that.
I did not say such an accord will be implemented. There are several reasons, the most important being the rejection of peace by Palestinians themselves. You can see the resistance already. Iran and others will not let this happen. There is of course the security agreements.
I don’t think Israel will subvert the agreements. No, it should use progress to reveal just how terrible the opposition is. I have stated so many times that every hour that passes, Israel and the US should prepare for war. It is still the likely outcome for ALL the reasons Terry, Larry and you have outlined. It seems many think how one gets to war is unimportant. American opinion is very divided. So is international opinion.
I totally reject the idea that other nations are not critically important for Israel. I reject the hardcore notions about the Islam-the-eternal-enemy-thesis despite MY REPEATED POSTS AND LINKS ON THE SORRY STATE OF ISLAM. In fact, as Russia and China begin to feel the threat themselves, ISLAM WILL moderate or suffer serious damage from direct military force. And I think my advocacy is in keeping with this blog’s intent. I feel in some ways this blog has be hijacked in the administrator’s absence….
And Render, you seem not to understand the bizarre nature of the American political system. I will leave it to another thread how Obama could easily win in 2012. He will however, lose power in Congress, but of course, HE ALREADY KNOWS THAT.
Trump quoted: “And has anyone listened to some of the rants by Israeli settlers, the ones who murdered Rabin? Was that good Terry?”
Well, I see scores of Israeli killed by muslim terrorists wheras 99.9% of “settlers” are brave citizens who want to live normal life without harming anyone!”
They believe in a greater Israel. They reject the two state solution. Many are religious and don’t fight and some don’t work. Am I right? On what planet would Israelis not expect Muslims not to attack places marked as Palestinian in the map Arafat was given by Clinton? Land the settlers say they WILL NOT GIVE BACK. Zealots murdered Rabin. If it had been a Muslim murderer, that would be a national rally cry for war —for decades. Settlers say they will fight the IDF who has no right to remove them from their promised land. And I am quite aware of what they think of Muslims. And what was the point of your selective historical review which I am already aware of? Are you defending the Greater Israel position? Are you saying the prior to 1967, Israel was secretly planning to attack and take more land they felt belonged to them? IS that what the founders of Israel had in mind?
Labor Day today, Yesjb, Memorial Day was May…..
I was a bit pissed, as though all the blood spilled is Israeli. Saddam isn’t in Iraq anymore pointing missiles at Israel. We fight the Taliban in Afghanistan. We chase down AQ. These are friends of Jews? I just find some of the attitude here rather arrogant and I did mean to mention the idea of Memorial Day, though of course the military bands aren’t playing their songs today….
And the drift you suggest between Israel and the US does not need to happen….
The attitude of Muslims do matter as Israel could never take on the Islamic world over time ALL BY ITSELF. The best prevention of disaster is reformation which DID occur in Christianity. We point out the second class status on non Muslims in Muslim countries. My parents couldn’t join certain country clubs in America well into the 1960s.
Maxtrue
“Are you defending the Greater Israel position”
In Hebrew,we call it “ISRAEL HASHLEMA ” which means complete Israel and it is our country from the Med to the Dead sea
Thank you for your attention.
a question for maxtrue -
What, in your justification, is Israels’ reason for being, existence, etc ?
To all a Shana Tova –>
K’siva v’Chasima Tova -
a year of good health,
a year of shalom,
a year of bracho, [blessing]
a year of simcha, [happiness]
to you and your extended family
f47, I’ll offer my own response to that.
Israel’s raison d’etre is to provide a place where a Jew can be a Jew, whatever that means to that particular Jew.
Sure, the USA, Argentina, Spain, Turkey, China, have provided some type of haven for Jews at different times, but it was always with some kind of qualification: “keep to yourselves” usually, maybe even “don’t stay too long, k?”.
Max, Christianity as “frightening” in our lifetime is silly hyperbole. No one in Pat Robertson’s congregation advocated jihad that I heard about. Mormons require missionary service of believers, but no Christian proselytyzing today that I’m aware of comes with a death threat in this life attached.
DEEP
BREATH
Austin Bay’s reflection, 60 years after North Korea’s attack on South Korea, applies elsewhere: “This continuing tragedy serves as a lesson in the difficulty of change, the limits of hope and the necessity of vigilance.”
America’s First Amendment is no safeguard against a lack of common sense:
“Petraeus Condemns U.S. Church’s Plan to Burn Qurans”
http://tinyurl.com/2e2cs8c
I hope members of this group talk to families of those serving overseas and come to their senses before Saturday.
In March 2009 Mohammad Dahlan of the PLO stated that, “For the 1,000th time, I want to reaffirm that we are not asking Hamas to recognize Israel’s right to exist. Rather we are asking Hamas not to do so, because Fatah never recognized Israel’s right to exist.”
So much for Wye River and Oslo. They never had any intention of abiding by any agreements. They will point out, quite rightfully, that Abu Mazen has no authority and speaks for nobody but his own thugs and his own bank accounts.
From the Khartoum Resolution of 1967 – “no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.” The infamous Three No’s.
There is no more of a possibility of a two-state solution working in 2010 then there was in 1948. They are not giving or offering peace in trade for land. They only want the land so they can get closer to their intended victims. Sixty-two years later I think we can safely say that a pattern is very visible.
Their only negotiating point is the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews. Each land for peace deal only gets them closer to those goals.
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/reports/Yassir_Arafat3_1929-2004.asp
Everything else is a lie. Any agreements reached and signed in 2010 will be rendered null and void before 2011 is over (can you say Intifada III? I know you can).
And then what? More of the same? Another decade or two of low-level undeclared war and constant terror attacks? Another decade or two of “no Jews can live here or there, we find it offensive”?
Cue up the worlds smallest violin for yet another thing about us that Muslims find offensive…
===
The Talib just executed ten Western doctors for the crime of being Christian.
http://freerangeinternational.com/blog/?p=3424
You’ll have to pardon me if I don’t give a **** about some obscure Christian sect in Florida burning a book that they own. I think its stupid and a waste of time, but I also know that they have a legal right to be as offensive as they want.
Dr. P, the great and mighty COIN Jedi, thinks that’s going to make things more difficult for US troops in Afghanistan? Like his idiotic Rules of Engagement haven’t already made things difficult enough? Like the Commander-in-Chiefs per-emptive surrender speech at West Point didn’t make things difficult enough? Like the insistence on allowing the Taliban a safe haven inside Pakistan doesn’t make things difficult enough?
There were mass burning of copies of Mein Kampf in the US between 1942 and 1945. Did that make the European WW2 front any more difficult then it already was? Did Patton or Eisenhower care, or even notice?
Maybe Dr. P needs to stop running around giving press conferences and passing out Powerpoint slides. Maybe Dr. P needs to start acting like he’s a US Army officer in command of a war zone. Maybe, since Dr. P seems to have some time on his hands, he could review the Constitution that he swore to uphold?
===
The only way they are going to have a reformation is if and when they get the snot beaten out of them. When the Abrams are parked in Mecca’s Kaaba, when the Merkava’s are parked on Straight Street (which isn’t straight at all) in Damascus, when the T-90′s and T-80′s are parked in Terhan, then they will be peaceful. That too is a pattern, a 1,300 year old pattern.
===
I know enough about the US political system to know that re-creating the abject failures of the Carter administration, compounded by the failures of the Clinton administration, while intentionally putting multi-millions of people out of work and raising their taxes at the same time, is not a recipe for re-election. It’s an early retirement plan.
SHADOWS
IN THE
WAR,
R
#224 Maxtrue.
I was going to write a reply but came across an article by Daniel Greenfield at his blog, Sultan Knish, which says exactly what I wanted to say, far more eloquently than I am able. Read it, if you would.
At Sultan Knish: ”We Won’t Let Terrorism Stop Us from Appeasing the Terrorists.”
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/
Maxtrue.
By the way, I completely reject the idea that Israel & the US will drift apart.
Quite the contrary, I very much believe that Obama & his crap agenda will be repudiated by the American electorate, that after Obama, American support for Israel will greatly increase. While we may still have an hostile US State Dept. to deal with, both Congress & the next US president, with the overwhelming support of the American people, will be very pro-Israel.
Get well soon, MJT!
And here’s a winner from Elder of Zion, a poll of Palestinian Arabs showing what they really think of ”Peace” ……
Elder of Zion: ”90.7% of PalArabs Want to Destroy Israel.”
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/09/907-of-palarabs-want-to-destroy-israel.html
Please note that this poll was taken by a Palestinian polling organization.
Needless to say, this will not make the New York Times.
MarkC,
Forgive the crude allusion, but I think you are pissing into the wind.
Abbas will not make any meaningful concessions.
He is at the end of a long line of Jew hating maximalists who want and will never be satisfied with anything short of Israel’s destruction and the murder of its Jews and ultimately Jews everywhere. Starting from Amin Al-Husseini up through Qwakji through Nasser to Assad to Arafat to the current crop of untermenschen running Iran Hezb’allah and Hamas.
And it doesn’t matter what “the people” want although these days they seem to be following their leaders rather willingly…”they will be as easily lead by the nose as asses are”
We’re in for some tough times.
I don’t know what Netanyahu is thinking but his actions seem to be showing up the PLA for what they really are…Hamas Jr.
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/09/hamas-gaza-refugee-group-denounces.html
(notice who the h/t is for)
, Terry and other EoZ fans
#237 Ali.
Good for you.
To all, especially those I enjoy talking to, I will take leave for a while. When Michael recovers and brings some sane focus back here, I will return (provided my tests prove negative).
Some here confirm a disturbing suspicion here that the two-state solution was never an honest offer. 60 years of understanding with the American people seem a ruse y Israelis. The Islam-is-the-eternal-enemy thesis is alive and well with even the neo-nazis and evangelicals teaming up as Israeli allies: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2010/0907/Petraeus-Dove-World-Outreach-Center-s-Burn-a-Koran-Day-endangers-troops
Frankly, I find it a betrayal. I know the terrible mindset the Israelis are dealing with in Palestinians and Arabs. I know that others including Iran want to destroy Israel. But for those that think Israel can break their understanding with the US and not see US polls shift away from them are deluding themselves. By the way, eight years of Bush brought about one of the worst economic disasters America has ever had. Israel will not be safer without help from abroad. Nurturing the convergence of allies is the way forward, not saying screw you.
And that is exactly what many are saying.
Render, there will be adjustment here in the Mid Term, but not the sudden swing to the right you expect. I think you don’t understand the Political Center of this country. Indies do not support the settlers nor call for a religious war. In order for Abrahms in Damacus etc. Israel must go forward with the peace accord and let the Palestinians once again hang themselves in the starkest terms before the international community. Only then will the pendulum swing favorably towards Israel and the hammer fall without producing more terrible things than good.
I suggest once again, Israelis do everything they can to change the narrative and sacrifice for peace. It is consistent with the founders of Israel and principle of those remaining allies…..
Yes, and as you stand for peace….
Prepare
For
War
#239
What I meant is that I help out regularly on that blog with translation. I guess this makes me a collaborator…
I pay Ali 8.5% of my hasbara salary from the Mossad for all his help.
#241 Ali.
That makes you part of the world-wide Zionist Conspiracy, welcome to the club.
And to the Elder of Ziyon – I like your blog, I take a look every morning, rarely, I leave a comment. But, I think you should pay Ali a flat 10% – since we control all the banks in the world, that shouldn’t be a problem.
Terry and Ali,
)
Maybe Ali would prefer to be a movie star or an announcer on CNN?
Don’t forget, we control that too
#112 yesjb
You miss my point, which was twofold. First, the fact that it was Sharon who gave up Gaza unilaterally (hardly an empty gesture) shows that making concessions to the Palestinians is not only a political tendency of the left. Second, it shows that the two state solution has taken hold so firmly in the world’s thinking that no Israeli prime minister can ignore it (only people on this website). Any explanation you can give for Sharon’s decision, even the most cynical (which would probably be the correct one) simply begs the question – why did he feel he had to do it? Why couldn’t he just do nothing? And if we learned such important lessons from the subsequent missile attacks, than why was Bibi in Washington trying to give away the west bank (formerly Yehuda and Shomron)? He’s not in a coma.
Larry – I have to admit, I don’t fully understand your responses. What solution do you suggest I be a part of? Endless conflict? That’s what our enemies want. Why do you want it, too? Why not get behind the prime minister of Israel? He seems to think that we can pursue peace without giving up our security.
Here’s what I see happening. If the peace negotiations fail, then the West Bank will sooner or later fall under Hamas control, and we will have another round of bloodletting, bombings, etc., and people will want to leave Israel. The U.S. will gradually stop seeing Israel as an asset in the region, and Israel’s position in the world will erode.
The two state solution will always exist, like a Platonic ideal. It is so simple in its basic logic and fairness that it will remain until such time as it is worth it for both sides to agree. Sharon probably thought he could avoid it by refusing to negotiate with the Palestinians and instead giving them Gaza like throwing a scrap to a dog. Perhaps he hoped that the Palestinians would launch attacks and bury the two state idea forever. But now he’s gone and the two state solution is still being discussed. If the present negotiations fail, maybe we’ll see another ten years of bloodletting, and then at the end of it we’ll be talking about the two state solution again (unless we get blown up by a nuclear warhead) because there simply is no other idea that makes any sense.
Maxtrue – Thanks for your comments. You are quite right, I started out taking a devil’s advocate position (a deal with the Palestinians is not impossible) and then started to appear as though I was asserting it absolutely. I can see the obstacles as well as anyone else. However, I choose optimism, not as an intellectual exercise, but as a strategy as well as a philosophy. We’re in a war, a war for peace, as I see it, and at some point you stop tallying odds and start choosing sides. Wars are never won by cynics and pessimists. They never accomplish much of anything.
American Jews,
Thank you for you for your support.
Please understand it is not your children that get blown up when we get into one of these, but rather ours- with some exceptions. As such proving that the Arabs do not negotiate in good faith to us actually cost something in blood. Please be mindful of that when you armchair propose things.
IsraelibaNY
Yes Markc, it happened to me too. Fortunately, this blog is run by a very objective person, who I hope is feeling better today. His intent wasn’t JihadWatch II or Debka II.
Note: not a single Israeli here called the murder of Rabin by Israeli settler-fanatics, for what it was -domestic terrorism. They passed right over it like it was nothing.
But I violate my own vow…..
http://maxblumenthal.com/feeling-the-hate-in-jerusalem/
Do not get me pissed ….
#246 yesjb.
Well, if Ali is to join our Zionist Conspiracy, I’ll have to teach him our secret code, he’ll have to learn a bissel Yiddish.
So, Ali, no more pita, from now on it’s bagels & lox at the deli.
I don’t think we own CNN, if we did, they wouldn’t be almost bankrupt.
Shana Tova, yesjb.
#247 MarkC
“We’re in a war, a war for peace”
Yes, and, like ten years ago, victims of terror attacks will be once more called “victims of peace”.
It reminds me of old joke from the Brezhnev’s USSR: “We will fight for peace with such intensity that it will result in more destruction than any war”.
To our blog geniuses “Wars are never won by cynics and pessimists. They never accomplish much of anything”. I beg to differ. Some examples from modern history:
WW2, Spanish war, Vietnam War, Spanish Civil War, US Civil War, etc.
If anything has ever been resolved it was by a war or a threat of a war.
Marek – you have missed my point entirely. Perhaps it is you who are the “genius”.
Thanks Terry,
The code, of course and also the secret handshake!
Tu écoute, Ali?
Shana Tova to you too!
#252 Rabbit256
Yawn. Either you ignore my points, or fail to understand them. I leave you to your secret handshakes.
Desolé, Terry. Should have been “écoutes”
Shana Tova,a happy new year to all !
I did not know we owned CNN
I gonna ask the staff manager to fire Hala Gorani
She is a very beautiful Syrian lady but her open antisemitism frightens me
She is probably a member of Assad family,too bad.
Maxtrue,
It wasn’t domestic terrorism any more than killing Archduke Ferdinand or Robert Kennedy was. It was politically motivated murder.
I suggest you review the meaning of “terrorism”.
as for cynicism. I think that’s exactly Netanyahu’s attitude. He likely believes the talks will fail not because of anything Israel does but quite clearly because of what Abbas doesn’t or won’t do.
And that’s becoming clearer every time he opens his mouth.
As for the likelihood of Hamas taking over the West bank.
That will be a certainty once there is a 2 state solution.
With no IDF to protect his ass, Hamas will be there in a flash with Iran’s help. Who’s he gonna call? UNIFIL!
I just wish I had your rose-coloured eyes. Then nothing would be complex and solutions would be so obvious.
But no thanks, really. I’ll take cynicism and skepticism any day.
I am proud member of the Muslim collaborators club.(who are also secret JEWS)
I have already handed around the Arabic version of the Protocols to the other members.
But seriously, if the “peace” process fails again, people will die. They may die anyways, but at least they would know who their enemy is.
@260 Ali,
Go tell your last sentence that to the poor kids of the 4 civilians killed in Judea Samaria,last week
Without these stupid “piece talks” or “piss process”,they would be alive today.
http://vimeo.com/13454360
Please Trumpeldor, let’s call it Hebron. You have declared your intention for Greater Israel…… Perhaps this video above is more the reason for anger than the “piss process”. I saw no Israeli tears when a 14 year old girl had her face blasted off by settlers.
Two can play this game….
The last video I linked above was quite brilliant.
P.S. Michael is back. I shall see to what degree however he can participate.
Robert Kennedy was killed by Sirhan Sirhan, not a fellow American making a political point.
“During Sirhan’s testimony, Cooper asked him to explain his reasons for the attack on Kennedy. Sirhan launched into “…a vicious diatribe about the Middle East conflict between Arab and Jew.” [7][11] Sirhan’s anti-Zionist rhetoric was so passionate that one of his own defense counsel, Emile Zola Berman, who was Jewish, became upset and expressed his intentions to resign [yet again] from the defense team. Cooper eventually talked Berman out of resigning, who then stayed until the end of the trial.[7]” Wiki
The crap posted here is getting bizarre. Rabin was murdered by a religious settler and the idea of fear was underneath the motive. The Right was stoking fear and anger. How dare the government talk about Land for Peace. The historic irony however of Sharon and Bibi is quite amazing, don’t you think?
“On 4 November 1995 (11th of Heshvan on the Hebrew Calendar), Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir, a radical right-wing Orthodox Jew who opposed the signing of the Oslo Accords. The shooting took place in the evening as Rabin was leaving a mass rally in Tel Aviv in support of the Oslo process. Rabin was rushed to the nearby Ichilov Hospital, where he died on the operating table of blood loss and a punctured lung within 40 minutes. Amir was immediately seized by Rabin’s bodyguards. He was later tried, found guilty, and sentenced to life imprisonment. After an emergency cabinet meeting, Israel’s foreign minister, Shimon Peres, was appointed as acting Israeli prime minister.[20]
Rabin’s assassination came as a great shock to the Israeli public and much of the rest of the world. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis thronged the square where Rabin was assassinated to mourn his death. Young people, in particular, turned out in large numbers, lighting memorial candles and singing peace songs. Rabin’s funeral was attended by many world leaders, among them U.S. president Bill Clinton, Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak and King Hussein of Jordan. Clinton delivered a eulogy whose final words were in Hebrew — “Shalom, Haver” (Hebrew: שלום חבר, lit. Goodbye, Friend).[21][22]” Wiki
Please Yesjb, don’t tell me about the definition of terrorism. There were many settlers that wanted Rabin dead and his polices ended. They still do regarding the former. Just watch the video above. I have to read above from IsraelNY how the US shouldn’t advance these “piss talks” because Israelis die? How about the dead Americans removing Saddam who paid families of suicide bombers? How about 9/11? How about the Taliban? How about the billions and billions?
And the stunning historic analyisis by marek, who completely misses the point. Vietnam? Spanish Civil War?
Later…..
If pessimistic cynics hadn’t prepared for war we wouldn’t be having this conversation, or we’d be speaking different languages. I’ve read what optimistic isolationism did to the 1930s American military; Brits, Chinese and others learned first hand. And this notion that the “international community” of UN thugs will—finally—acknowledge Israeli good faith efforts strikes me as beyond delusional.
Paul, you know very well that there are two very important sides of the coin. I have said too many things in support of self-defense and survival to waste my breath defending myself. Where have I ever said not to prepare for the worst. Where have I ever denied the biological imperative? Anyone?
If you want to toss aside the other side of the coin, give up principle, the very ideals required to bring our world into the sane future, so be it. And you wonder where our values have gone. Let’s be animals and take what we can. We should learn the lesson of the 1930s and have a strong hammer (we do). But, I am glad Paul for all that I have said, my comments are beyond delusional……
http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=199674
And Happy New Year too…..
As others have said, Max, when Arabs reciprocate good faith efforts, peace will come. Let’s focus on incentives; what are their’s? To do what, specifically? Damascus being only the most obvious example we’ve discussed.
Maxtrue,
I know all about Sirhan Sirhan. He was actually a Palestinian. and I know about Yigal Amir too. To compare these 2 to the many suicide bombers from the Territories, from Iraq, from the Taliban who by their acts of wonton destruction of humans en masse is an attempt at moral equivalence that is, well, never mind.
John Wilkes Booth was a terrorist too, I guess. Those Confederates and their sympathisers really had it in for Lincoln, didn’t they?
To talk about the the “settlers” as if every Jew living in Judea and Samaria was a settler is ridiculous. You seem to think that every Israeli right of centre is a “settler” and can’t be sane; no in fact according to you he’s a terrorist.
And please spare the Wikipaedia clips!
I know what happened to Rabin; he was assassinated, murdered. He wasn’t blown up on a bus with 50 others. The object of a terrorist is to terrorize!
“The historic irony however of Sharon and Bibi is quite amazing, don’t you think?” Don’t forget Begin!
They all decided to trust their adversary and take a chance while those in the Labour Party didn’t have the balls.
I’m not sure Sharon would be happy the way things turned out. At least begin got a cold peace that’s still in effect. But at least he was dealing with Egypt.
And what does Saddam, 9/11, the Taliban have to do with Israel?
As for “bizarre” comments… is that only by those who haven’t seen the light?
262. Maxtrue
http://vimeo.com/13454360
“Please Trumpeldor, let’s call it Hebron. You have declared your intention for Greater Israel…… Perhaps this video above is more the reason for anger than the “piss process”. I saw no Israeli tears when a 14 year old girl had her face blasted off by settlers.”
Jews have been at Home in Hebron for thousand years !
14years old girl blasted of by settlerss ???
Paul S #264
That’s funny, it’s the isolationists who I would have considered cynics and pessimists, and FDR and Churchill the idealists and optimists. They had a moral vision for their countries and for the world and were prepared to take risks and fight for it. The isolationists were the ultimate cynics – they just wanted to be left alone and let the world go to hell.
Maxtrue has already translated this to the current situation, which I see as similar to my “war for peace” idea. This is not left wing sloganeering, but to be taken literally – we fight our enemies militarily with everything we’ve got, while at the same time seeking – nurturing – creating a government on the Palestinian side with whom we can make peace and end the historic conflict. Anyway, in case you haven’t noticed, this is exactly what Israel, the United States, and Europe have been doing since Arafat left the scene. You’re just behind the curve.
Here’s a great article from Shlomo Avineri in Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/biladi-biladi-what-s-in-a-name-1.312848
Right-wingers – before you vomit and go to the next post- read it, you will like it. It is an eloquent argument for why Bibi is 100% correct in insisting that the Palestinians accept Israel as a Jewish state. Otherwise, there will always be a backdoor for delegitimizing Israel.
Mark, when all of this “nurturing” that has been going on since 1948 results in areawide peaceful co-existence, I’ll acknowledge it.
As for fighting “our enemies with everything we’ve got”, Hamas would be history if that were the case. And why the hell is it Israel’s or any ally’s job to be “creating a government on the Palestinian side”? Never mind; we’re so far apart it’s wasted energy to debate.
Paul S -
I repeat, you’re behind the curve. You’re far apart, not with me, but with the president of the United States, the prime minister of Israel, Europe, and indeed the west in general.
Actually, I feel sorry for the settler right. They have been betrayed by one right wing prime minister after another, and have had to trek farther and farther into the political wilderness. Many must be approaching the limits of their allegiance to Israel, and some have already crossed it. You can hear the desperation in some of the shrill, hysterical, and bigoted rants on this website.
Trump, you obviously didn’t watch the video. Please explain when the 14 year old girl is murdered by a settler. She is shot in the face. How can you justify the behavior? Have not Arabs been in Hebron for thousands of years? And why did you not call it Hebron?
Yesjb, Rabin’s murder was an attempt to stop policy. It was a message to all who would dare advance a two state solution. Spinning it otherwise is BS. It is funny how you tailor terror to fit. Hamas murders to strike fear. I have little patience. It is sad Yesjb. You know that in my free time I do what ever I can to support you. Mark summed up my position. I have held my tongue regarding Israeli crimes and abuses, stupidity and mistakes. That Max Blumethal video above is pathetic. I have heard the same things said by some Israeli MEN in NYC I met. Some even told me the only reason they were here was to make money. They told me, an American, they didn’t even like NYC. There are always bad apples. Look at America. Yes, we are all ugly sometimes. Not sure some here understand that.
The most amazing thing is that you ask me what 9/11, the Taliban and Saddam has to do with Israel. I am completely amazed coming from you Yesjb.
” 248. Israeli-in-NY
American Jews,
Thank you for you for your support.
Please understand it is not your children that get blown up when we get into one of these, but rather ours- with some exceptions. As such proving that the Arabs do not negotiate in good faith to us actually cost something in blood. Please be mindful of that when you armchair propose things.”
Like Americans didn’t die getting rid of a despot that wanted to kill Israelis? Like the Taliban doesn’t represent the sick radicalism that motivates antisemitism in the ME? Have not Americans died fighting the same Bullshit that threatens Israeli existence? Wasn’t Robert Kennedy murdered by an angry Palestinian, angry at US support of Israel? Isn’t AQ in part driven by US support of Israel. Didn’t 3000 Americans die in the same clash of ideology that drives hatred towards Israelis? Don’t you receive billions in US aid? And WE are asked to bud out? We have no right to push PISS TALKS?
Paul, Egypt is not at war with Israel, nor is Jordan. The Saudis privately hope Israel hits Iran. Without this patron ,Palestinians might already have been broken enough to accept some peace. Even Castro lectures Iran. You miss the point again. If Israel could selective terminate every Hamas militant without killing hundreds of civilians it would. Where did I or Mark advocate being pussies? When did we close our eyes? I’m with Render on the next war and the rules of force. Since when does that mean we don’t checkmate the foe with “other means”.
Gee, maybe some critics are angry that Israel really means to keep all the land. Maybe some Americans listen to the videos banned by Israel TV. And there are things I would rather not even bring up now.
Max (#242) – “To all, especially those I enjoy talking to, I will take leave for a while. When Michael recovers and brings some sane focus back here, I will return (provided my tests prove negative).”
R – MaxMaxMax, what makes you think that MJT is any saner or focused then the rest of us? I can’t speak for anybody else here, but I can say that MJT’s writing is what brought me here as a lurker so many years ago. WTH? What tests? If you got some poor woman pregnant you better do the honorable thing. Seriously Max, take care of yourself.
Max – “Some here confirm a disturbing suspicion here that the two-state solution was never an honest offer. 60 years of understanding with the American people seem a ruse y Israelis. The Islam-is-the-eternal-enemy thesis is alive and well with even the neo-nazis and evangelicals teaming up as Israeli allies…”
R – It has always been an honest offer from the Israeli side of the equation and we do have a very well documented 62 year long precedent regarding the lack of honesty from the other side of the equation. Israel’s “special relationship” with America is not 60 years old. Truman had to ignore George Marshall’s advice to not recognize Israel in ’48, Truman also slapped an arms embargo on both sides, which in practice only effected Israel (hence the almost two decade “special relationship” with France). JFK broke the ice, but not the arms embargo, it was left to LBJ to do that in the late 1960′s. You my friend, are not a historical neophyte, you know all of this. Organized Islam, (such as it is, or appears to be at the moment), is and will remain “the enemy” of Israel not because of anything that Israeli’s or Jews have to say or do about the matter, but because that is what it teaches its young, an indoctrination of hatred. There is no such thing as eternal enemy, or forever war, because nothing is eternal, nothing is forever. An alliance requires the agreement of both parties. I see no evidence that Israel, the nation or the government, is allying itself with neo-nazis. I do see certain neo-nazis attempting to switch sides and causing a schism within their own ranks by doing so. Lack of acceptance on Israel’s part of such an alliance serves only to further disintegrate and marginalize the neo-nazi ranks. That there are Jews who stupidly wish to ally themselves personally with neo-nazis’ is nothing new (kapos) and proves only that Jews, chosen or not, are people too. In that limited sense a Pamela Geller is no different from Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, or George Soros. None of whom represent Jews, or Israel, or Americans for that matter.
Max – “Frankly, I find it a betrayal. I know the terrible mindset the Israelis are dealing with in Palestinians and Arabs. I know that others including Iran want to destroy Israel.”
R – I think you’ll understand why I’m separating those three sentences from the rest of the paragraph. Israel, who counts on certain high tech arms shipments, now finds itself once again embargoed by a US President, who is betraying whom here? You know of that terrible mindset on destruction and death and yet you do not see the betrayal in withholding promised shipments of the means of self-defense?
Max – “But for those that think Israel can break their understanding with the US and not see US polls shift away from them are deluding themselves. By the way, eight years of Bush brought about one of the worst economic disasters America has ever had. Israel will not be safer without help from abroad.”
R – It is not Israel that is breaking that understanding. No US President has the right to force Israel to surrender to its genocidal enemies, no matter what the polls say. So the five years of Democrat controlled Congress had nothing to do with the current economic situation? For the entire eight years of the Bush administration the Left screamed blue bloody murder every time Bill Clinton was blamed, rightfully or wrongfully, for the things that have gone wrong. Like all US Presidents before him, Obama’s responsibility began the day he was sworn in. The buck stops there. Israel, with or without help, will not be safer until it beats the crap out of the death seekers that flock to its every border.
Max – “Nurturing the convergence of allies is the way forward, not saying screw you.”
R – Obama has not exactly been the epitome of a uniter or organizer at any level so far. He and his policies have already managed to alienate every single one of our oldest and longest term allies. Every one.
Max – “And that is exactly what many are saying.”
R – Saying and doing are two very different things. Deeds not words.
Max – “Render, there will be adjustment here in the Mid Term, but not the sudden swing to the right you expect. I think you don’t understand the Political Center of this country. Indies do not support the settlers nor call for a religious war. In order for Abrahms in Damacus etc. Israel must go forward with the peace accord and let the Palestinians once again hang themselves in the starkest terms before the international community. Only then will the pendulum swing favorably towards Israel and the hammer fall without producing more terrible things than good.”
R – Max, that swing back to the Right has already begun, (in the words of the Bill Clinton campaign – it’s the economy, stupid). Multiple millions of Americans are now unemployed because of the policies of the Obama administration. All of America, Left, Right, and Center is watching this administration hemorrhage money on failed policies like Cash for Clunkers, Stimulus that does not stimulate growth, and giant corporations and corrupt banks that are “too big to fail,” even as this same administration slices the military budget down to the bare minimum to meet payroll, raises taxes, and institutes new taxes and fees on those who still have jobs. You’re generalizing both American Independents and Israeli residents of the West Bank and Jerusalem and you’re usually better then that. We’ve already got 62 years worth of stark evidence that the Palestinians will hang themselves, again. We also have 62 years of stark evidence that the “international community” really doesn’t care if Israelis are mass murdered or Jews are ethnically cleansed yet again. The “international community” such as it is, only cares when Israel is winning.
Max – “I suggest once again, Israelis do everything they can to change the narrative and sacrifice for peace. It is consistent with the founders of Israel and principle of those remaining allies…..
Yes, and as you stand for peace….
Prepare
For
War”
R – And I suggest that it is not up to Israel or the US or the half mythical international community to change that narrative coming from behind the invisible Green Wall. There is a strategic limit to what can be sacrificed tactically. Giving up the Sinai was strategically wise, it shortened the defensive lines considerably. Giving up the Golan Heights, or the high ground of the West Bank is out of the question.
R – You see Max (and with my abject apologies and great sorrow for all Israelis), I do not stand for a peace on that front that I’ve never seen in my lifetime. Not at all. I stand for war and prepare for peace. Anything else is only delaying the inevitable and increasing the odds that it will be worse when it happens again.
DEFIANCE,
R
Max (#250) – Don’t get you pissed? Hey, you’re the one linking to Max Blumenthal’s selective excuse for journalism from the far left.
Did somebody tell you that all Jews were paragons of moral rectitude? They lied. Did somebody tell you that all Jews were the same as David Ben-Gurion and Albert Einstein? They lied. Did somebody tell you that Jews are different from any other members of the human race? They lied.
Did Max Blumenthal tell you that the majority of the Jews seen in his propaganda video were Israeli? They’re not. Did you fail to notice the unmistakeable accents of people whose first language is American-English? Did Blumenthal confirm, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that everybody seen in that video was even Jewish? Did he even bother to try? Of course not, it wouldn’t have fit with his “all Israelis who aren’t far left are nazis” meme. You know the meme I’m talking about, it’s the same meme that Phillip Weiss, Richard Silverstein, and the freakshow of J Street are all pushing as hard as they can. They’re all making a living off of that propaganda meme.
Don’t get you pissed? Don’t run that far left feces on me. It doesn’t stink any the less then the far right feces does.
ARMORED
SAINT,
R
Max,
“The most amazing thing is that you ask me what 9/11, the Taliban and Saddam has to do with Israel. I am completely amazed coming from you Yesjb.”
If Israel didn’t exist, the hatred and desire to destroy America and the West would still be there and probably much further along.
But the Arab don’t really give a flying f*ck about the Israel/Palestine situation.
Their aims are much higher.
There is of course a relationship since Israel is not Muslim and does indeed share Western values and their failings, I might add.
But their very existence is anathema to those in Islam pulling the strings.
The direction of your comments paradoxically point to the very antithesis of what I think you believe, that Israel and the US part company.
As far as a partner for piece is concerned…yes, that would be great. But the Palestinians need a Ben Gurion who would be realistic not people like Abbas who, s I’ve said before, differs from Hamas in methodology only, not in his goal.
Well before 1948, the Arabs totally and completely rejected the existence of any kind of Jewish independent presence in Palestine, and that attitude has persisted and only deepened.
Have a look at Ephraim Kirsch’s book, “Palestine Betrayed” to see the roots of present-day attitude and Jeffrey Herf’s book on the influence of Nazi propaganda.
Its quite depressing but that’s who the Israeli’s are dealing with.
Yes, I’d love a utopian two-state solution and how many times has it been offered before, starting around 1920, not 1948!
I’m still waiting and I expect I’ll still be waiting from my grave.
Wow, I just got back from a colonoscopy. So far so good. Still, three hours sleep a night while running more than twenty miles a week does get one very cranky. Since I truly value Render and Yesjb’s comments I will take a deep breath and read them slowly. Perhaps, some of the back and forth is misunderstanding. And we all know where that leads…lol.
Render, you at least hold out the two state solution and are not blinded by the settler’s logic. And I never said I expect Palestinians or Arabs to rise to the occasion. What Mark and I seem to be saying is that they can be cornered into an agreement short of a bloody war. If they then back out, who will stand by them? And I have always said, prepare for war and push for peace. By the way, I first pointed out Obama’s embargo on Israeli military goods long ago. Yes, that was betrayal, big time. It has resumed yes? Partly from Jewish pressure here.
DON’T
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M
Yesjb, yes, Israel is actually a minor sticking point. Radical Islam has its target on Western society which Israel is part of. The Arab nationalists of an earlier time had racism and competition as a motivator. The US and Israel share a common defense which many Israelis reminded the US after 9/11. So Americans HAVE died in the same conflict as Israelis. Yesjb, you confirm my point.
The US and Israel don’t part company, but for Israelis to reduce everything down to the Palestinian issue (and their telling them to fuck off after so many years of their terrorism and hatred) is to be blind to the bigger picture. So when the US says we must do so and so in the bigger picture like defusing the Palestinian issue, it makes sense in the greater struggle both Israel and the US shares. I don’t see how that is so hard to understand. Mark is saying the same thing. Iran is dangerous. Your leaders say it is the greatest danger, not Hamas. It is critical to the LONG WAR, that American doesn’t get into a huge fight with Israel. It is in both of our interests to end the excuse for hatred on the Arab side. Make them come up with something else. Backing out of the two state solution would produce a serious rift as Americans will take that for betrayal.
If I had a death ray, you know exactly who I would use it on in a second. But that doesn’t excuse the way settlers treat Arabs who have lived on the land for thousands of years. It does not excuse arrogance or stupidity. It does not excuse a crappy economic system. We are not perfect, nor are Israelis. We must corner these assholes (the hating Arabs) into an agreement they break at the anger of the world. I laughed when I read Castro bitch slapping Ahmadinejad to Michael’s friend Jeffery Goldberg of the Atlantic. Russia and China are also eventual converts to the resist radical Islam side. And both the US and Israel had better prepare for the conflict approaching. We must do both these things. That is what Mark and I were saying and will continue to say. I’ll read this all above and get back a bit later.
Happy New Year my brothers and sisters…..
Most Israelis do favour a 2 state solution and have for decades. (actually its almost 100 years.)
Remember that the extremist settlers are a pretty small group but make a lot of noise.
There unfortunately many more in the Israeli leftist camp equally if extreme if not worse who similar to their Western confreres would be just as happy to see Israel disappear and believe that Paradise lies in a one state Islamic republic (spelled Caliphate).
I believe these “talks” will show the deceitfulness of the the Palestinian leadership. And it is actually coming out already. They have no,interest in any compromise, never had and never will.
They need a new leadership that can influence their people positively. But even if they started now, it would be decades for something meaningful to happen.
They have spent decades poisoning the minds of their youth instead of teaching them about the positive nature of living side by side with Israel. And it hasn’t bee just one opportunity either.
No wonder, I’m a cynic.
Maxtrue,
Glad to hear everything went well!
Happy new year to you too!