Yoram Hazony wrote a fascinating essay about how many Europeans view Israel, and why so many of them find the country distasteful. A sovereign Jewish state that uses armed force to defend itself and advance its own interests is increasingly at odds with the pacifistic post-nationalism of Europe.
“If Germany and France have no right to exist as independent states,” he writes, “why should Israel? And if everyone is prepared to remain dry-eyed on the day the United Kingdom and the Netherlands are finally gone, why should anyone feel differently about Israel?”
He suggests that Israelis and Europeans learned the opposite lessons from Nazi Germany. Israelis learned that Jews can’t survive without a sovereign state and army of their own, while many Europeans think national sovereignty and military force are what lead to events like the Holocaust.
It may be useful, then, for Europeans and other Westerners who find Israel so exasperating to step outside their own paradigm and take a look at how Israel views itself. The following six-minute video is an excellent place to start. It’s not comprehensive, it avoids the tough questions, and the Palestinians have their own counter-narrative, but when Israel looks in the mirror, it sees this:
Very powerful presentation.
I have to think about this before I comment.
I don’t think the reasons cited above or in the essay are why most people dislike Israel.
The author of the essay speculates about some future event which will cause Israel to be vilified internationally. Amongst these he casually mentions: “Perhaps it will be over an incident in an Israeli jail or at a roadblock in the West Bank. Perhaps it will be over the visit of an Israeli public figure to the Temple Mount, or the purchase and occupancy by Jews of a building in East Jerusalem.”
Well these events on their own are very much worthy of criticism. Because Israel has no right to have roadblocks in the West Bank, which is not Israeli territory.
The Israeli “public figure” who caused an uproar when he visited the temple mount was Ariel Sharon who is viewed as a war criminal by Palestinians for his complicity in the Sabra & Shatilla massacre.
And Jewish settlers are not “purchasing” buildings in East Jerusalem, but using court orders issued from biased courts to forcibly evict Palestinian families from their homes and then occupy those homes; a very slow and calculated form of ethnic cleansing.
Until Israel abandons its expansionist and colonial policies, and begins to respect the Palestinian’s right to self-determination, its image will only get worse and worse. And rightfully so.
And thanks for the link to the Yoram Hazony essay – it was mentioned in an article I read just recently & I forgot to look for it …..
beautiful
DPU,
Nobody has legally, according to international law, owned the West Bank since the time of the British Mandate. (And you could argue that the British no more owned it than the Israelis do.) Anyway, most Israelis would like to leave the West Bank, but they cannot until it is safe and an agreement is reached. They can’t just decide “okay, we’re done now.” Most of the checkpoints have been lifted, but if all them go, more people will die. So they’re staying.
I don’t like what’s going on in the West Bank either (really), but if you think Israel can just call it a day, I don’t think you appreciate the extent of the violent catastrophe that likely would follow.
Doubleplusgood–
You’re missing the point. The massacres you mention have been disproven years after the event. In addition, you obviously have never been in Israel for any period of time because you would know that roadblocks are within Israeli territory. Territory which Israel rightfully gained in 1967 after a war that was started by Israel’s enemies. After 1967, America said that Israel would never have to give up the land from ’67 as that constitutes “defensible borders”. Because Israeli roadblocks ARE in Israeli territory, they have every right to patrol their borders.
You have to understand that when you enter ANY building in Israel, whether you are palestinian or Israeli, everyone is subjected to security checks. I have “suffered” just as palestinians “suffer” through many random and annoying checks. But its for security, and for that, I’d rather suffer through it than have to live in fear, something european liberals like you cannot understand. Its not humiliating and it does not lower the quality of life, it in fact enhances it because there is a sense of security that terrorism can and will be prevented.
Also, the eviction of palestinians that you are talking about comes about because of palestinians building illegally. When settlers go on a empty hilltop to claim the land as their own, their settlements are dismantled as well. Hardly what one would call an “expansionist” policy when the “preferred” people–aka jewish settlers are also discriminated against. Obviously, Israel is just upholding laws of legality.
And “east jerusalem” has always had jewish neighborhoods historically because jews wanted to be close to the western wall. I have lived in east jerusalem for a year in a jewish neighborhood where families have lived there ever since 1967. Every jewish neighborhood that is created has nothing to do with arab presence there. Arabs have their neighborhoods and the jews have theirs. Some arabs live in jewish neighborhoods and some jews live in arab neighborhoods. Nobody kicks out a palestinian or a jew from their home unless they are living there illegally–as it often happens.
The rhetoric that you and other “post-colonial liberal thinkers” continue to repeat about expansionist colonial tendencies of Israel is completely invalid unless you are talking about a tiny group of settlers. That does not represent Israel or its policies. Israel does respect Palestinian’s right to self-determination. They live as full citizens in Israel and have full rights–they can vote, they can join the army, they can get a job and be productive citizens. I have met a few Israeli arabs and they will tell you that they are very happy and comfortable.
doubleplusgood,
All of the areas under the control of the Israeli army are the property of the Jewish people and administered by the State of Israel. See http://www.mythsandfacts.org
Israel needs not ask permission of the nations to protect its residents and boarders or to administer law and order.
If you don’t like it, well, too bad.
Thanks Micheal. Ditto what you and Terry said.
DPU, self-determination? I don’t see anywhere that this includes the non-existence of the Jewish State. Your selective filter and narrative doesn’t fly here.
Your omissions are predictable to say the least.
& doubleplusgood
“Well these events on their own are very much worthy of criticism. Because Israel has no right to have roadblocks in the West Bank, which is not Israeli territory.”
What territory is it ??? “Palestinian”? Give me one palestinian king or ruler prior to 1920 , what was the currency , the capital,language,borders ??
Let me remind you that till 1948,the Palestinian bank,Palestinian brigade or the Palestinian Post newspaper were Jewish.The San Remo 1920 international conference awarded the sovereignty of the WHOLE Mandate,from the Mediteranean sea to the Dead sea, to the Jewish people ! The different clauses of this conference are still valid and binding nowadays under international laws you love so much when Jews are involved !
“The Israeli “public figure” who caused an uproar when he visited the temple mount was Ariel Sharon who is viewed as a war criminal by Palestinians for his complicity in the Sabra & Shatilla massacre.”
The PM of the Jewish State had all the right to visit the most sacred Jewish Place.He did ask permission to the muslim wakf which is the custodian of the place( thanks to Moshe Dayan in 67) and permission was granted !!
Sabra and Chatila atrocities were committed by the khateb phalangist militias ,not by israelis”!
“And Jewish settlers are not “purchasing” buildings in East Jerusalem, but using court orders issued from biased courts to forcibly evict Palestinian families from their homes and then occupy those homes; a very slow and calculated form of ethnic cleansing.”
Jews have all the rights to regularily purchase properties in their own capital or reclaim ones illegally seized in 1948.Let me remind you that under Jordanian rule,Jews had no access to their holy places and synagogues were blasted into ruins ,cemeteries turned into public toilets.
Now,all faiths have access to their respective places.
How come the “Palestinians “didn’t start a holy intifada against the Jordan illegal occupiers ???
“Until Israel abandons its expansionist and colonial policies, and begins to respect the Palestinian’s right to self-determination, its image will only get worse and worse. And rightfully so.”
How many times was Israel attacked despite multiple peace offers ??? Who said no to get back territories for peace in 1967 ???The kingdom of Jordan is made of 2/3 of Palestinian mandate
Your sense of morality is completely skewed.It does not matter if you are leftist,Muslim or liberal Jewish, how can you fully live with all senses of good and right upside down ??
Go and see Israel by yourself !Afterwards,you will write on this blog !
Michael, I appreciate your your effort to present the complexities of the Middle East in general, and Israeli society especially, to your readers. I’m not a frequent commenter on blogs, but I did want to say that I appreciate your work.
I think your own reporting offers the sort of insight and subtlety that presentations like this one lack. Obviously the medium is different, but I am Israeli, and to me, that presentation has a very obvious right wing slant. There’s nothing wrong with that in itself, and as you noted, it’s a viewpoint that is often missing in non-Israeli media. Still, I don’t think it speaks for Israelis as a group, because Israel is too fragmented and diverse for there to be one reflection of what we believe and how we see ourselves and our country.
A few specific points re the presentation: 1. The University of Haifa does indeed have a large Arab student body – I studied there, and 20% sounds about right. The pictures used, however, are not of the University of Haifa. 2. The Sinai was not given up merely for the hope of peace, and I think the Gaza disengagement was mostly strategic 3. Clubbed to Death as the soundtrack makes it a bit too Hollywood for my taste. Kind of hard to take it seriously, since it is so associated with The Matrix.
I am very much looking forward to your reports from Israel.
DPG or whatever,
Firstly Israel is no more colonial than Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq, all which did not exist before 1918. The British and the League of Nations affirmed (NOT created) the right of Jews to live in their homeland in 1921.
Check history not propaganda.
Strange, you have no comments about the expansionist policies of Syria who has always considered Lebanon, Jordan and Israel as part of Greater Syria. And so did the Palestinians til around 1967.
Now the Palestinian leadership especially Hamas considers every Jew a war criminal consider, well perhaps not the haredim) and the existence of Israel a war crime. Sharon was exonerated by the way and your comments sadly bring to mind, Begins comment about goyim killing goyim and then blaming the Jews.
BTW the riots and intifada following Sharon’s visit to the temple Mount were planned long in advance by Arafat and hardly spontaneous.
The Israelis have for a long time been willing to have a 2 state solution, which may come as a surprise to you.
But the Palestinians under Arafat and then Abbas have found one excuse after another not to sit down and talk directly. But of course people like you will blame the Jews. Its de rigueur, chic and makes one popular.
The other points are already covered.
Mari–
The gaza disengagement was not strategic. Militarily, it could not be strategic because Israel would not be able to control the level of radicalism in the area by giving them economic opportunities in Israel. The only strategic part about it was PR which was to show the world that Israel is not occupying gaza. In other words, it was done explicitly for the hope of peace.
In fact, gush katif was previously known as a place of strategic benefit because it provided a buffer zone for Israel. Many people who lived there prided themselves on helping protect the land of Israel.
But with Sinai you are right because it did give us peace since it was given to Egypt as a peace gesture and they did recognize Israel’s right to exist.
#10 Mari
The video itself is a remake of a popular format (the whole “I Am Israel” thing) using the same song (Clubbed To Death).
What kicked it off was an extremely anti-Israeli version. If you search I Am Israel on youtube, you should be able to find both pro- and anti- versions there.
Michael does have an excellent point, however, in shining light on the discrepancy between self-image and how others view you. (That applies to all parties, Israel, the various Arab factions, and the international advocates of both sides)
Hello all,
I am a german. In my opinion, Israel has every right to Judea and Samaria (“West Bank”). I want to explain why – for that let’s have a look in the german history:
Germany lost a lot of its former land to Poland after WW2. It was because Germany started the war. No one today would claim to get it back. It is very normal to loose land if you start a war!
Why should it be different in the case of Israel and the “west bank”???
Note: The Arabs started the war in 1967. Because they blocked the sea way to Eilat! That was against international law. Then they shouted to erase the jews from the face of the earth! Is that not enough for a small state to defend itself finally???
That was the situation in 1967. So the arabs started the war and lost it after 6 days! Also they lost the “west bank” which was occupied by Jordan.
If Germany has no right to claim back the lost land from ww2 – so why should the arabs have the right to that????
Hope you all understand my poor english!
shalom from Germany!
#7
“Israel needs not ask permission of the nations to protect its residents and boarders or to administer law and order.
If you don’t like it, well, too bad.”
I agree with you. The UN and the ” International Community” are worthless and have no moral or legal standing. I think tat the only thing the Muslim world respects is strength and Israel and the USA can’t afford any more compromise with these people.
Michael has convened a fascinating seminar here; it would take me, from my perch in America, months or years to learn this much about Israel otherwise. I look forward to even more when his time permits. This forum’s greatest value is its respect for and encouragement of reasoned discussion.
“megacomplicated”, “fractured”, “fragmented”, …no one with knowledge and honesty would ever claim representative democracy won’t be messy. Just preferable to so many darker alternatives.
Andrea,
I do not disagree but do not forget that whereas Judea Samaria status is “disputed”,Poland was clearly a recognized free nation
Doubleplusinaccurate:
The author of the essay speculates about some future event which will cause Israel to be vilified internationally. Amongst these he casually mentions: “Perhaps it will be over an incident in an Israeli jail or at a roadblock in the West Bank. Perhaps it will be over the visit of an Israeli public figure to the Temple Mount, or the purchase and occupancy by Jews of a building in East Jerusalem.”
Well these events on their own are very much worthy of criticism. Because Israel has no right to have roadblocks in the West Bank, which is not Israeli territory.
Until a final status agreement is agreed upon, Israel controls the territories, whether or not you or anybody thinks it’s their territory or not. And because most of the suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians have emanated from the West Bank, Israel has an obligation to ensure security for its citizens, and that means roadblocks and the like.
The Israeli “public figure” who caused an uproar when he visited the temple mount was Ariel Sharon who is viewed as a war criminal by Palestinians for his complicity in the Sabra & Shatilla massacre.
Maronite Christians were responsible for the massacre; Sharon merely made the mistake of allowing them into the camp. In any event, Israel has been negotiating with the PLO, headed until recently) by Arafat and others, almost all of whom Israelis consider to be war criminals. I don’t see the point of your post.
@Trumpeldor:
Well, Pland was a free nation of course. But I referred to the extra land they got from germany after ww2! Poland was much smaller before ww2 than it is today! Please do not forget it!!!
Also I am not talking here about the “Palestinians” – referred only to the right of the jews to Judea and Samaria!
The “palestinians” are not a disputed nation. They are arabs. Even Arafat knew that! So if they dont want to live in an jewish state – they can go to Jurdan where about 75% are “Palestinians”
This is not my opinion: its a fact!!
@Trumpeldor:
well, didnt refer to the polish nation. I wrote about the LAND. Before WW2 Poland was much smaller than after the war!
Also I didnt refer to the “palestinian nation”. That point might be disputed – I referred to the LAND of Judea and Samaria and the right of the jews to that LAND!!
If the “palestinians” dont want to live within Israeli borders, they are free to leave. For example they could go to Jordan – 75% there are “palestinians”!!!
Note: this is not my opinion – this are facts!
Your Andreas from Germany.
The palestinian leadership carries most of the blame for the
situation that they currently finds themselves in. Israel was willing
for security and economic reasons to offer a genuine peace deal that
would have led to a two state solution that both parties could have
signed off on, but unfortunately, the revolutionary context under
which the Abbas leadership continues to operates from the old
days of the PLO and the level of extremism and fanaticism injected
by Hamas has done irrepairable damage IMO to the prospect of a just
and equitable peace as Israel itself must now weigh the benefits of
dealing with a divided and weak palestinian leadership which can’t
stand up on its two feet and make the kind of commitments that would
open the door to a durable and lasting peace! Something has to give
and it looks like a two state solution is much farther than what it
was in 2000.
20.Andrea,
True,you are spot ON !!
I forgot that Poland received Eastern Prussia to become Silesia.
Greetings from Brussels,formerly Belgium and under murky status NOW!
@Andrea,
You are right !
Eastern Prussia became Polish Silesia in 1945.
And the millions of German refugees resettled in their homeland without acts of terror against
Poland !
Greetings from Brussels,formerly in Belgium and in murky status NOW!
Thanks, Michael, for the link to the interesting essay. Yoram Hazony describes the chasm between two different perceptions of Israel as:
This seems to explain how the internationalists (leftists of various stripes) can despise Israel. It even grants them a plausible rationale which puts the onus of refutation on Israel, its defenders and, indeed, defenders of the very idea of the nation-state.
However, Hazony’s analysis is too kind to those who vilify Israel. It does not explain their fixation on the Jewish state when there is a plethora of examples of behavior throughout the world – especially in the Middle East – that they should conclude is parochial, venal nationalism – if their operating principle was to apply consistently the paradigm described in the essay. Something other than nationalism bothers them about Israel.
The identifying characteristic of the object of their selective outrage is Westernism, i.e. classical liberalism, capitalism, the morality of self-interest and self-defense. The post-national are really the post-modern, whose anti-Western nihilism is reproached every time the values of the Renaissance and Enlightenment are asserted. Their emotional reaction against – and fixation with – Israel (and America) – has less to do with the paradigm construct of the nation-state than with a hatred of particular types of nation-states.
It doesn’t really matter why they want to kill us all. It only matters that they do.
FIRST
THINGS
FIRST,
R
Lol Render, you must have loved MY recent posts.
Forgive me again but Matthew touches upon the paradigm or dialectic of Big Brother (evil government and its evil soilders) cast from the Nazis onto Israel v a form of the hierarchy of needs or a Darwinian paradigm in which bad is defenseless and good is strong. These contrasting narratives affect the meaning of the words they use.
There is more at work here, but it makes general sense. The clash of civilizations is a mutation of the clash of ideologies (liberal v communist/fascist) which in fact forms the basis of the Big Brother dialectic. Orwell was after all most worried about totalitarianism and 1984 merely focused in how socialism could mutate into tyranny. Fancy that.
But what emerged from Europe was not just Big Brother but also a virulent socialism/strasserism laden with antisemitism and contempt for capitalism. orwell was aware of these strains. Against this emerged a fascist tendency on the right.
Personal I’m a big fan of what I call the Ecological dialectic which is about the biological and cultural parameters and adaptations of behavior. You could call it the evolutionary paradigm. In this dialectic, Render is correct. Survival is the imperative. Life is the morality. That was clearly the message from the video. Note how socialists and fundamentalists are not Darwin friendly. So I think from the video Israel sees itself in an evolutionary light stressing cooperation and self-dense, sacrifice and cultural advancement, strength and seriousness.
I wonder what Israelis think of this: http://www.juancole.com/2010/08/8169.html
Matthew,
I believe that its more than just a particular type of nation state. Its an ethos, a philosophy a way of thinking.
Basically these types of “haters” eschew the scientific method, anything that involves objective analysis and to a significant degree the idea they prefer anarchy.
To them the ideas of western civilisation are meaningless and corrupt. Western literature and science are tainted and valueless. They must be replaced by something else, anything else as long as it doesn’t smell of the West. That’s at least one reason why its so easy for these people to ally themselves with the most destructive aspects of Islam despite the contradictions in their belief systems.
But these individuals worship simplicity of thought, the superficial review of any problem no matter how complex or multifaceted is sufficient. They are aided of course by a media whose mentality is based on sound bites, whose thought cannot or will not grasp anything which cannot be explained in simplified terms and who transmit this concept to their readers.
Even those who should know better by dint of their intelligence, choose to select their facts, opinions and rumours and profess them as the truth and/or wisdom. Its the complete inversion of the scientific method and its consequences are disastrous.
This reminds me of an anti-capitalist theme I hear in San Francisco about how equality of opportunity will never be “fair” until it produces equality of result.
Paul,
“equality of opportunity will never be “fair” until it produces equality of result.”
I think there was a book about that…called “The Emperors New Clothes”
yesjb,
It’s interesting how much current reality, let alone history, the Left must sweep aside to keep belief on the rails; I see why “struggle” is a popular term.
Trampeldor: “I forgot that Poland received Eastern Prussia to become Silesia.”
Not to forget, Soviets hacked piece of Eastern Prussia for themselves too – Kenigsberg and vicinity.
Andrea,
Annexing Judea and Samaria will prove disastrous for Israel because of potential threat of loss of Jewish identity of the state and most likely possibility of civil war a la Lebanon.
I see ownership of WB as liability for Israel.
Render: “It doesn’t really matter why they want to kill us all. It only matters that they do.”
Exactly. No need to cloud one’s mind with inconsequential stuff.
Leo: Annexing Judea and Samaria will prove disastrous for Israel because of potential threat of loss of Jewish identity of the state and most likely possibility of civil war a la Lebanon.
Yes. That is why Israel has not annexed the West Bank and wants to be rid of it. But they can’t be rid of it until the Palestinians let them go by coming to some sort of agreement. And the Palestinians will not let them go. Fewer and fewer of them even want a two-state solution these days.
It is a ridiculous situation, and it’s probably going to last for the rest of my life. To those of you who hate it — I suggest you get used to it.
Only for Israel would decades of contractions – from the Sinai, from Hezbollah-land, from Gaza, and from parts of the West Bank – be considered “expansionist.”
Israel’s Partners in Peace (Inc.) are, like many of their brethren, at the cutting edge of providing terrible choices. And then, worse choices.
What do you do when ‘negotiating’ (or trying to ‘negotiate’) with a group that wants to destroy you?
Do you hold on to territory in an effort to convince them to change their minds, and risk international outrage, internal dissatisfaction, and demographic upheaval?
Or return territory so that your Partners in Peace (Inc.) can rearm to the teeth and threaten your entire country from an even shorter distance, better weapons (and from higher ground), making war even more inevitable than it already is?
(First deny that they want to destroy you?….)
Which choice, my dear experts, is the most “moral”?
Andreas: they can go to Jurdan where about 75% are “Palestinians”
No they can’t. Jordan will not let them in.
Something different needs to happen. It won’t happen any time soon, but it needs to happen eventually.
Calbear: Only for Israel would decades of contractions – from the Sinai, from Hezbollah-land, from Gaza, and from parts of the West Bank – be considered “expansionist.”
Indeed.
They shouldn’t annex Judea and Samaria but Israel should not be pressured to give up settlements, especially settlements that are fully established. Fully established communities where there are schools, synagogues, and nice houses. To forcibly kick Jews out of their homes is reminiscent of Gush Katif. I was in Israel that summer and I still remember clearly how devastating and traumatizing it was for people to be evicted from homes they had lived in for twenty years or more. Even the soldiers who were forced to throw their own people out of their homes was a devastating thing. It was a sad day for all of Israel, but a hopeful one, as many saw this as the right step in the direction toward peace.
Yes it was done for the sake of peace and to show the world that Israel is not occupying Gaza, but the effects on the community today still exists. Today, many of those people have yet to be fully compensated and they are living in temporary housing units five years later. Many of them suffer post-traumatic stress syndrome.
And peace was not achieved. Whenever we think about how Israel should just give up settlements to satisfy the palestinian cause, we should remember how giving up gaza didn’t really accomplish much and you can argue that it directly caused more radicalism because Hamas took control less than a year later.
I just finished reading the Hazony essay, this isn’t a new idea by any means, I recall a similar analysis made a number of years ago. I can accept this a a partial explanation, it’s a facet of a many-faceted reality.
One major point is left unexplained by Hazony’s thesis, if the West cannot accept Jewish nationalism why can it accept Palestinian nationalism? Obviously something else is at play. Hazony’s thesis gains more validity, however, if one considers the support by many to a bi-national state, a joined Israel/Palestine, a ”state of all it’s citizens” in the Orwellian rhetoric used by the Left.
#37 Michael Totten.
That’s because we missed our chance in 1967. Today, of course, annexing Judea & Samaria is to say the least, problematic. In today’s political climate, expelling the Palestinians by force would be practically impossible.
Nonetheless, I don’t accept the demographic argument, it’s based on a lot of phony statistics.
I don’t think much of the ”Jordan won’t let them in” argument either, it wouldn’t be their choice. The Hashemite regime doesn’t have much of a future anyway, sooner or later, it will be over-thrown.
Terry,
“The Hashemite regime doesn’t have much of a future anyway, sooner or later, it will be over-thrown.”
To be replaced by…? Your best guess.
There is a very good article on the Israeli Left at Zionist Conspiracy (Steven Plaut)
titled, ”The Israeli Left – From Naivete to Sedition.”
http://zioncon.blogspot.com/
Also at: http://www.jewishpress..com/pageroute.do/44907
#42 Paul S.
Boker tov, Paul.
Best guess: Muslim Brotherhood, Islamists in any case.
And, if there is ever a Palestinian state, they will do everything they can to foment a coup, be it Fatah or Hamas. And, to add to the mix, Syria has always had it’s eye on Jordan & Iran would like to subvert every Sunni regime.
Anyway, what makes the Hashemites a legitimate regime? Because the British sat his grand-father on a throne? Without American & Israeli support, the Hashemites would be gone in a flash. And, since America is abandoning the Middle-East to Iran, King Abdallah’s days are numbered. Of course, since Arab regimes have only one real interest, which is to stay in power no matter what, he might grow a beard & become an Islamist.
To hell with all these convoluted thumb-sucking arguments as to why people hate Israel. I believe in Occam’s razor and there is a very simple explanation:
Antisemitism.
Cue DPU, ‘raptor and the rest to scream bloody murder now. But there certainly is no more logical reason for Israel to receive more vilification than such bloody human rights hellholes as Syria, Libya and Saudi Arabia, to say nothing of Sudan. The only argument that ever made a lick of sense was the amount of aid to Israel from the US. But even for Americans that ignores the huge amounts we transfer daily to Israel’s enemies at the gas pumps, and it doesn’t apply at all to Europeans – hello, fnord.
B-b-but Europeans are so morally superior, they *can’t* be antisemitic! No history of it there bwahaha. And time and again, “righteous” critics of Israel let the mask slip to reveal nothing but naked Jew-hatred – Jimmy Carter, Paul McCloskey, Helen Thomas.
I’m not saying Israel is beyond criticism. It is certainly possible to criticize Israel without being antisemitic. It just doesn’t happen very often, not nearly as often as Israel’s critics would have you think.
@Michael Totten,
I second Terry’s argument against the hoax called “the demographic threat “which does not exist !
Palestinian demographic fgures are flawed, for instance, they take into account 200000 Arabs in Jerusalem which are also listed on the Israeli side…
Average figures about the number of people in Hebron, Kalkylia, Jenin and Tulkarem are also very heavily inflated.
Yoram Ettinger,a former diplomat, discusses these flawed figures at length on jpost and on his own blog.
#45 Gary Rosen.
I tend to agree with you. It’s pointless to over-analyse, I don’t believe for a minute that it matters what Israel does or does not do, it doesn’t change a thing.
Concessions only make things worse, weakness invites being bullied.
It’s not PR either. The people who are anti-Israel don’t care about facts, history, rational analysis. They have created an imaginary demon called Israel that exists only in their deranged minds, they regurgitate accusations & use every incident as a pretext to demonize us. That’s why I don’t even bother to reply to anti-Israel posts.
#46 Trumpeldor.
Demographic threats also have solutions.
For example, the system of child support in Israel creates an incentive for Arabs to have more children. Unfortunately, this also affects the Haredi population but solutions could be found, although talking about solutions & Israeli politicians in the same sentence is pretty funny.
“a very slow and calculated form of ethnic cleansing”
“expansionist and colonial policies”
So typical of the cynical, dishonest, demonizing rhetoric used by critics of Israel, along with “apartheid”, trying to make it sound as if Israel is some uniquely savage oppressor. Yeah, that “ethnic cleansing” is so freakin’ slow that the Palestinian population is increasing faster than the Jewish one. Just today I read a squib in the WSJ about Palestinians just receiving work rights in Lebanon (sorry, Mike), referring to “stateless refugees who have been banned from all but the most menial professions for decades”. But somehow the DPUs and fnords and microraptors of the world don’t get all ginned up over that, there are no calls for academic boycotts of Lebanon, no deluge of resolutions from the UNHWC (UN Human Wrongs Commission).
Like I said, Israel is not perfect nor beyond criticism. But I will *gladly* compare its human rights record to any of its enemies. Bring it on.
45. Gary Rosen
Congrats,Garry,in some short sentences,you succeeded to sumarize the whole case !
@Terry,
According to Ettinger,there is no “demographic threat”,or put it mildly, given the increasing Jewish fertility and the decreasing Arab one, the trend is very encouraging…
These are Ettinger’s views,official figures from the Israeli national department are less promising but the reliability of this department is doubtful at best .
Do they follow a political agenda ?????
Anyone notice how post-nationalist Europe never has any problems with nationalist Arab states? Add another double standard to the list….
“32. leo
Andrea,
Annexing Judea and Samaria will prove disastrous for Israel because of potential threat of loss of Jewish identity of the state and most likely possibility of civil war a la Lebanon.
I see ownership of WB as liability for Israel.”
Would you prefer salvos of kassams and grads all over Gush Dan or on the only Israeli international airport ???
See the map by yourself !
On the net ,you might even find nice picures of “settlements” with Tel Aviv azrielli towers well displayed on the background !
Get real ,West Bank surface is 5000 klms2, 1/6 of Belgium !
Try to find Belgium on the world map,it is already a feat…
wb or Judea Samaria is a regional problem ,it is just inflated to please arab crowds,especially in eurabia
This is not a serious video. It appeals mainly to the senses and emotions (though i must say the music got annoyingly repetitive). Nothing wrong with that. But, for a serious video, you can’t just cherry-pick the most convenient events of history and most flattering images of today, string them together and present the result as if it was the whole reality.
#51 Andrew
The Euros are whores for business from these states. Remember the disgraceful courting of Qaddafi in Paris in 2008? All to get business for Arreva, Total, Dassault, Airbus and others.
The French are particularly willing to whore, and not just with the Arab states. For example, they agreed to transfer key aerospace and defense technology to Brazil and China in return for contracts.
@54, Joe
Despite these contracts,European economy is even worse than US except maybe for Germany !
Trampeldor: “Would you prefer salvos of kassams and grads all over Gush Dan or on the only Israeli international airport ???”
No, I do not prefer.
However, I prefer something different.
My prefer MB taking over in Jordan and Egypt and abandoning all peace agreements with Israel.
There doesn’t seem to be much hope of a two-state solution at present, but I think there might be a chance of a three-state solution – Israel, West Bank and Gaza.
Gaza is pretty well an independent state already, although dependent on Israel for electricity and water (while pretending to be at war with Israel).
Current negotiations are really about the West Bank.
24. Matthew M
“However, Hazony’s analysis… does not explain their fixation on the Jewish state when there is a plethora of examples of behavior throughout the world”
That’s a very good point, which succinctly summarizes the main blind spot in an otherwise excellent article.
re #32, 46, 48
The demographic demise of Israel has been repeatedly overstated for the disadvantage of Jews and to pressure Israel into making territorial concessions. The number of Arabs has been overstated to acquire more foreign assistance, and the Arabs living in municipal Jerusalem were counted twice.
The real numbers show Israel could annex Judea & Samaria and the result would be 67% Jewish, not a large change from the current Israel which is 75-80% Jewish. This breakdown is stable due to an increase in the Jewish birthrate and a decrease in the Arab birthrate due to better education and economic opportunity for their women.
see: http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2010/05/demographic-scarecrow-bomb.html
#58 Don Cox.
Current negotiations? There are no current negotiations. And even if direct talks begin, there will still be no negotiations.
This whole ”peace process” is a dead end, there will be no agreed settlement, even if a Palestinian state is somehow imposed on Israel or unilaterally declares independence.
And, truth be told, the whole thing has been a charade from day one – the Palestinians never had any intention of coming to an agreement with Israel.
That is not their ultimate goal anyway, their goal is Israel’s elimination as a Jewish state. Israel negotiates with itself. Our idiot politicians have been talking to themselves, making concessions one after the other, while the Palestinians have gone through the motions but have not ceded a thing, absolutely nothing. On the contrary, they keep coming up new demands just to begin the pointless direct talks, forget a genuine agreement.
#58 re two or three state solution
I am an advocate of a ten-state solution for the Levant: an autonomous region for each religious or ethnic group. Let them trade and compete with each other.
hi, btw my name is Andreas not Andrea
I think this video could help to understand a lot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0
this is also very usefull:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHStBGk_D8Y
thy all!
Four-state solution:
Israel-Jordan-Gaza-West Bank.
(The Palestinians currently have three… And so why not a fourth?….)
57. leo
Trampeldor: “Would you prefer salvos of kassams and grads all over Gush Dan or on the only Israeli international airport ???”
No, I do not prefer.
However, I prefer something different.
My prefer MB taking over in Jordan and Egypt and abandoning all peace agreements with Israel.
What is the point to come over here to spit such a bean ?
Hussein’s days as a monarch are numbered. So he better start looking for a place in Paris or New York.
Once he’s gone the Palestinians on the right and left bank will be screaming for a unification claiming its all Palestine. Then of course they’ll want to reconstitute the British Mandate borders of Palestine.
So much for a 2 state solution!
Israel would then be remiss not to keep a good part of the West bank for strategic regions alone.
But throw into this mix Syria’s designs and a war between Jordan/Palestine and Syria may become a real possibility.
Now the question is who do you root for when both sides lice-encrusted dogs?
Mr Totten is a world class journalist par excellent and I enjoy reading his reports very much. Let me bring something up about history in the Middle East.
The reason Byzantium is never mentioned during a Western civilization vs Islamic civilization debate is because the Moslems very effectively (yes through mass murder via Muslim imperialism) erased Byzantine’s 1000 year history. The Muslims are repeating themselves 1400 years later with their modern wars and propaganda directed against Israel. Didn’t the Muslims steal the name “Palestine” from the Jews? Now lets imagine that the Muslims defeat Israel, then what would be left of the decadent consumer driven West and their disappearing Christianity?
The West bank is a paper concept that has no basis in reality and was invented by the British because they feared Muslim rioting. Israel will never leave Judea and Samaria no matter what group of people answers in the affirmative.
The Europeans get played by dictators because they insist on merchantalism instead of capitalism as the basis of their economies. Capitalism does away with so many crucially needed bureaucrats that give merchantalism the appearance of solvency; after all, the government statistics say everything is works better that way. By settling for despotic arrangements instead of free market competition, Europeans lock themselves into supporting monsters.
European morality is chasing its economic interests into hell, the Middle East is the place where that hell is most obvious. Rather regrettably, the last three US administrations have helped Europe in this descent by pursuing merchantalist policies as well. Reverting to free markets will be painful for the US and agonizing for Europe, but the damage will mostly be felt by the government employees and their parasites. Failure to revert to free market vitality will be catastrophic for everyone in the world.
Patrick, other than the fact “free markets” really don’t exist in a pure sense, you have a good point.
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2010/08/cordoba-house.html#comments
More from the anti-Zionist crowd. Let’s see if he posts my latest comment. I guess this is what disgruntled former intelligence people do in their spare time.
Right Render?
And I wear tin foil….lol
Yesjb, not worth debating tyrannis.
Trampeldor: “What is the point to come over here to spit such a bean?”
What do you mean?
“My prefer MB taking over in Jordan and Egypt and abandoning all peace agreements with Israel.”
Well ,you prefer the worst enemies of Israel (muslim brotherhood) to take over the only 2 arab countries ,having signed a peace treaty, to ditch it
Why did you come here ??
One American conservative’s puzzlement with the Left.
I get the sad feeling from the discussion that reluctance to simply acknowledge and address an antagonist’s intractable nature until they prove otherwise infects politics everywhere. It’s as if history never happened. So how close do the flames need to get before the hoses come out? Israel is pretty small already, but at least it still exists.
“But if we were just much nicer, maybe…”
Hopeless, apparently. This concept of representative democracy is certainly a messy affair.
Are you asking how long can cultural blindness can stifle or hijack biological predisposition? http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/08/culture-and-genetics/
And let’s not get into hormones and pheromones….or the subtle shifts in synaptic chemistry that is also effected by variations of social mindset.
And we blab away.
My typos are diverse….
Max – I’d sure like to know what kind of drugs he’s on…so I can avoid them.
That comment at the end about PG County Maryland mildly amuses me. I know all about the rampant, systematic, and endemic corruption that exists at every single level and in every single government office of the county. Hence the multiple ongoing FBI investigations. I know that it is a 100% Democrat Party run county. I also know that the crime rate rivals and sometimes exceeds that of Baltimore city and Washington, DC combined.
But none of that is relevent to the subjects at hand.
Lang very clearly has an issue with the concept of Jews defending themselves. Among a great many other issues…
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/148905/how-one-mans-leaks-saved-saddam-cw-condemnation/michael-rubin
If I were to put on my titanium alloy yarmulke, (it’s the 21st century, ya know?), I might be inclined to point out that HizbAllah didn’t begin construction of the pre-2006 defenses that Lang named the “Tabouleh” line until after he had registered and then de-registered as a foreign agent of an unnamed Lebanese “businessman”. Did Lang have a hand in designing those positions for HizbAllah, beyond just naming them?
Lang is currently claiming that HizbAllah is busy building a new defensive line north of the Litani River and outside of the UN zone. My response to that is…”no duh.”
The videos that Microraptor linked show that beyond any shadow of a doubt. GoogleEarth shows that those HizbAllah defenses extend considerably south of the Litani, all the way to the Israeli border. At times sharing positions with the LAF and literally right next door to UN positions. again, Microraptors linked videos prove that beyond any shadow of a doubt.
W. Patrick Lang’s incessent cheerleading for HizbAllah leaves little room for doubt why he’s an ex-anything and everything to do with the current US military and intelligence communities. Lebanese members of HizbAllah were caught or killed while fighting against US troops in Iraq.
http://www.forward.com/articles/11143/
===
Gary Rosen – (did you read this far down?) Your comments #45 and #49, excellent. I have only two minor disagreements…I would not have included Microraptor. MJT calls him friend. If I didn’t trust Mr. Totten’s judgement on such things, I wouldn’t bother to be here. Nor would I have generalized “Europeans”, I have way too many European friends who have stood by my side and in my defense for way too long. Otherwise, nice job.
LOYALTY
IS
REWARDED,
R
Oh, boy. I could write volumes about the basic subjects (re nation-states) of the essay by Hozany. I’ve been tossing them around in my mind for at least 15 years. (And they have been covered in the conservative press/commentary for a long time, too.)
A few quick, random comments.
One important subject in the essay could be described as “centralization vs. decentralization.” I spent over 30 years as a management consultant, mostly in “turnaround” projects, helping companies that were on the edge of bankruptcy. (I honestly find it surprising to be able to say that I never failed.) My experience taught me that decentralization, as much as practical, works the best. Lower decision making as much as possible. Let people apply their own experience and knowledge. Let make their own mistakes, and to learn from them. The EU and the UN (actually “super-states” as opposed to nation-states) are the opposite of that. Nation-states are smaller, are better.
The use of the word “paradigm” has become popular in the business world, too. It largely replaced the word “model.” But similar discussions to Hozany’s use of the word have been made, in other venues/subjects, using the terms ideology, narrative, religion-as-a-metaphor, etc.
Hazony mentioned the need for generational attitudes for paradigm shifts. I don’t remember if he noted that paradigm shifts can happen suddenly, too. For example, in my own career, a rapid shift can happen when new management (or someone like me) is sent in to take over the management of a company. Another paradigm shift happened to Japan and Germany when the Allies won WWII. (Another paradigm shift happened to me when I got married, but I’m smart enough not to talk about it.)
And boy, do I ever understand the resistance to paradigm shifts, suggesting that people change the way they do things. (Fortunately, I usually had complete control. For those whom I could not persuade to at least give something new a try, I could say, “Either cooperate or your replacement will.”)
Sorry, I get wordy when writing (and use too much punctuation). But I guess I’m trying to explain WHY *I strongly support Israel as an independent nation-state.* It has and will make mistakes. I think it sometimes has and sometimes hasn’t learned from them. But I am hopeful that, given the chance, it will make the right decisions to realize its founding dream – a safe and modern society for Jews.
But in the meantime, it has two large obstacles – many of its bloodier neighbors and the “post-modern” EU and UN. It just needs the chance.
Now for something a bit more light hearted from me. Google “People Who Disagree With Me Are Just Arguing In Bad Faith”, including the quotation marks. Go to The Volokh Conspiracy (it’s a blog by lawyers). This is not off-topic to any Comments or Talkback sections. It has both humor and serious discussion in the Comments. I think many of you might enjoy this.
Maxtrue,
There’s a lot more sustainability towards the ideal of a free market than there is towards the ideal of central control, or the sickly mess that politics driven bureaucrats make of things. We need to scrape the barnacles off and stop pretending that they add value with their tax.
Thanks for that Render. I found it odd that Lang couldn’t imagine why anyone reading the thread might be confused where the obvious invective was coming from. Muslim indeed…lol
I’ll see if he prints my reply, but there is no real point. There are many groups and sympathies to watch. The most consequential are the most important.
And Coles? What, is he the flip side to Debka? So what about the light-reactor? Interesting weekend.
If you read the review of the Chinese missile programs, you get to see where things are going. Funny that the Chinese are demanding the Americans don’t do this and print it anymore. Lang might suggest because that might reveal how Israel is selling all the US missile secrets to China. Anyway, their anti-ship approach is interesting: http://forden.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/2819/df-21-delta-some-early-thoughts
Given the reaction of Islam after 9/11, it is quite understandable that the American people is sending Islam a political message, not a religious one.
Obama is discovering what Lang hasn’t. 33% of Americans think Obama’s Muslim.
Hierarchy
of
Needs
Max
Trampeldor: “Well ,you prefer the worst enemies of Israel (muslim brotherhood) to take over the only 2 arab countries ,having signed a peace treaty, to ditch it”
Israel will not have peace as long as WB and Gaza issues are not resolved.
And as you can see the rest of the Arabs are in no hurry to make peace with Israel and Palestinian Arabs are too stupid to understand that they are being used and too hateful to have around.
Unless you intend to commit genocide your best bet is quick war and opportunity to send your lovely neighbors packing. And it is only possible if Israel is attacked first. By hoping that MB will come to power and will start war with Israel I am actually hoping to save much more lives on both sides.
Max – Funny, that was one of the claims that Anan made, (still looking for those ANA “manuever brigades” I guess), The accusation that Israel had sold missile technology to China, (a cynical eye might even see that as a form of blood libel).
Both China and Israel deny it and there is zero evidence of any obvious Israeli designs in the current known Chinese missile inventory. Certainly not the solid fuel DF-21 series, which is based on the late 1960′s JL series. I think the earliest JL series missiles were loosely based on stolen Russian designs, which were much modified German designs…
*Israel’s Jericho missiles were orginally a French design, (which I think were also based on German designs), with some US modifications (and we know where those came from).
The DF-21D requires a safe and secure satellite network for targeting, otherwise its just another really big bottle rocket.
http://www.fas.org/news/china/1998/h980618-prc8.htm
Not likely to see stuff like that from John Pike these days, are we? I think we know where the biggest boost to China’s modified Russian missile programs came from.
US,
R
@Leo,
We agree 100 % !
Anyone read DebkaFile this morning?
”US Ends Iraq War, Leaves Two Civil Conflicts on the Boil.”
http://www.debka.com/article/8976/
@Terry,
Very worrying news indeed with the usual motorcade of dead and destruction.
I do hope that Kurds will overcome and have a successful indenpendant state.
As a special concern for Israelis, the huge inflow of sunni refugees to be expected into Jordan might destroy the monarchy …
Strategic disaster for Israel,ripening opportunities or both ????
#85 Trumpeldor.
I have no particular attachment to the survival of the Hashemite monarchy. I’ve said on many posts that this regime will not survive for long. Basing foreign policy on ephemeral regimes is just plain stupid & short-sighted, but, of course, stupid & short-sighted perfectly characterizes Israeli gov’t. policies.
I have no idea if the Debka article is based on real intelligence information or not. Or, if it is just based on an informed speculation. It is certainly a credible speculation even if not based on specific intel.
Change is always an opportunity if you’re tough enough to seize it. But, I wouldn’t count on the Israeli gov’t. – they’re paralyzed, a bunch of uncreative mediocre political hacks.
Trampeldor: “We agree 100 % !”
I doubt that.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Global-Union-The-End-Of-Nations
Another factor in the discussion of European views of Israel.
Debka is hysterical this morning. As usual it speculates to the extreme and forgets the future is as fluid as the past. Republicans here are just for a Debka-like mess before November to beat Obama with over the head. As for the Taliban, I don’t see a threaten counter-offensive anytime soon. I am more concerned with Pakistan at the moment.
Can’t wait for Debka to be waxing hysterically about the Mexican border. I am not sure their bitching about that light-reactor coming on line this weekend has had any impact. They certainly haven’t taken on Coles claims head on….
For me it’s as simple as the fact that God gave Israel to His people, the Jews. End of story.
I love and appreciate all you Israelis (and informed others) posting and talking amongst yourselves. I profit by it, and am also encouraged. I love Israel and the spirit of her people. It matters immensely to me that she not only survives but prospers in the time we have left to us.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11033781
So will Obama hand him back to the Russians?
Let’s all put some money on it….
Israel’s major problem: Oligarchy.
Here’s an excellent article by Daniel Doron, ”Unable to Decide?”
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=185204
Mr Totten.
Daniel Doron is someone you should make an effort to meet.
http://blog.usni.org/2010/08/18/the-b-side-of-soft-power/
America’s problem: watering the desert…..
Yep Terry, right after he meets the folks at Debka…
#82 — “Both China and Israel deny it”. That’s proof enough for some right there.
“there is zero evidence of any obvious Israeli designs” — further proof! Who else but those nefarious Israelis would be clever enough to cover up every trace of their involvement?
To a true conspiracy nut everything is proof, even lack of proof. The moreso for anti-Zionist or anti-Semitic conspiracy nuts.
“Numbered”? Hell, they were over eleven years ago.
#92 Maxtrue.
You don’t find Debka a credible source, do you similarly discount the opinions & analysis of Caroline Glick? Her opinion on Iraq, while less dramatic than Debka’s report, is far from optimistic.
”Dusk in Iraq.”
http://www.carolineglick.com/e/
Daniel Doron’s article was quite accurate. I have basically had the same opinion since I came here, it is evident in every aspect of life here.
Terry,
For years as Glick points out the Americans and Israelis have been going after the tails of the snakes (Iran and Syria).
I don’t know why they prefer the “death of a thousand cuts” to facing the snakes’ heads face on. (affontez la tete!)
Perhaps they feel that if they put up a good enough show the cuts will stop at 500 (LOL). Perhaps they feel that “Hope springs eternal in the human breast.”
But they’re not fighting the English here.
As my surgery professor said many years ago “Piss or get off the pot!”
Rather they should piss into the pot and empty it on the snakes’ heads!
#95 yesjb.
As long as you’re quoting your surgery professor, I’ll use a medical analogy as well.
If you leave a cancer, it grows, it metastasizes. If left unchecked, the patient dies. But, if caught in time, you excise the tumor, the patient has a good chance of survival. The political leaders in the West are poor physicians – they try snake oil, faith healing, take two aspirins & call me in the morning.
They’ve been avoiding dealing with Iran for 30 years. They haven’t even been treating the symptoms much less the disease.
Terry,
If the patient is dying from the treatment, maybe a different treatment is in order. It is not that Debka offers nothing, but what is credible is usually left to the reader’s smarts, not Debka’s. That is the opposite of journalism. Did Debka care to mention the forces that work against Iran in Iraq, or the actual ground situation in Afghanistan? As I have said before, according the Debka the ME should have already been destroyed several times in just the last few years, Mubarak already dead. Iran tipping missiles. Turks exchanging fire with the IDF, etc. etc. In one post Debka suggested the US took out that illegal weapons caravan in the desert of Sudan. In another they suggested the death of the Palestinian weapons dealer in the Gulf was due to an accidental overdose. Is that plausible given the drug used?
You have seen professional articles here from WSJ, Israeli blogs, Counter-terrorism.org, Ares, Threat Matrix, Danger Room etc. Debka is quite different and unfortuanately so. It is almost as though they want to be taken as Obscurantists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obscurantism What exactly they are trying to achieve is far from clear.
Glick is a bit better. I am not disputing the vulnerability of US strategy as deployed by Obama. Iraq and Afghanistan are in difficult positions. Our intention is not be an occupying power and it is necessary every now and then to feed that perception. Maybe if things get bad, the government will ask us back and be far more gracious the next time.
Terry,
What struck me most in Doron’s piece: “over 70 percent of government decisions never get implemented”. If America’s Congress had such a track record our private sector might be healthier.
Debka would amuse me, if friendly lives weren’t at stake.
There is much to like about Captain Glick. But I wouldn’t want to serve under her command…
NUFF
SAID,
R
#93 Ahad – Very true. But I don’t write or comment for the benefit of conspiracy nuts. They wouldn’t believe me any more then they would believe any of my sources.
The sun will rise tomorrow. The only question is which of us will live to see it…
COLD
STEEL,
R
Please forgive me for changing the topic and suggesting an odd ball idea out load.
A question for everyone.
Would would everyone’s thoughts be about a joint Israeli/Palestinian Authority/Hamas/LAF/Hezbollah relief mission to Pakistan?
Perhaps Israel/PA/Hamas/LAF/Hezbollah can create a permanent relief Corps of 30 thousand relief people who travel around the world for natural disasters.
This doesn’t mean that the conflict between Israel/PA/Hamas/Hezbollah would stop. the conflict and the relief Corps would co-exist side by side.
What does everyone think about this idea?
Notice how Pakistan just agreed to accept aid from India for its natural disaster. Even the worst enemies cooperate to provide humanitarian relief in natural disasters.
ROFL.
Start looking for that missing ANA battalion from 201st “Corp” first. When you find them, get back to us.
BEETLE
JUICE,
R
Anan, I don’t usually respond to crank ideas, but yours is beyond the norm. First, I don’t think Hizb’Allah or Hamas are sending aid to Pakistan. They are grabbing any aid they can for themselves. I rather doubt they give a crap about the Pakistanis. Such a decision would need the nod from Iran. Even if this were to happen, what purpose could it serve them the very week Israel contemplates the Iranian reactor? In what narrative way does this advance their known position? What positive thing does having Israel aboard give the narrative of the axis? Sure, Hamas, Hizb’Allah and Iran can learn hip hop and try out for America’s Got Talent…..
And what sign would this Muslim/Israeli aid group? Some good will gesture meaning what? You present something that is completely far fetched without showing how this event were it to happen would have positive gain for anything. To the Pakistanis, the aid is all that matters and I rather doubt they would have Hizb’Allah or Israel distribute aid. They don’t even allow the US to distribute aid. The reality of the poor Muslim flow of aid is a story in itself.
Do you put a lot of time into coming up with this stuff?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/19/worst-case-scenarios-possible-strike-plans-iran-involve-risky-options/
Would would everyone’s thoughts be about a joint Israeli/Palestinian Authority/Hamas/LAF/Hezbollah relief mission to Pakistan?
I have a better idea. Let’s get the cops, meth dealers, the crips and the bloods to distribute medical marijuana, sudafed and oxycontin to the poor and sick. Do you think the poor would see any of those drugs? I don’t. Do you think the cops would be blamed for the resulting mess? You bet they would.
Hezbollah, Hamas and the Palestinian Authority are terrorist organizations, which means they’re also criminals like the crips, only on a much larger, government-funded scale. (ok, the Palestinian Authority says nice things and doesn’t argue as much as Hamas, so we downplay their fondness for blowing kids up).
Criminals steal stuff, they don’t give it away. Stealing stuff is their job.
http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/541/viktor-bout-to-be-extradited-to-stand-trial.com
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/08/laser-jet-preps-for-saturday-missile-shootdown/
Render, we can discuss a bn from 1-201 ANA offline if you want.
Have asked around about this. Some responses were along the lines of “so what.” Keep in mind that 201 ANA’s battlespace use to boast 3 ANA brigades when the Chosen One was elected. Now its battle-space has 7 brigades, albeit partially formed ones. Good cadre was spread thin. Plus the lion’s share of ANA resources have been diverted to elsewhere in Afghanistan.
Slightly off topic . . . you might want to ask yourself what country mentored the 1-201 ANA bn that is being discussed.
Maxtrue, Pakistan is more open to accepting international troops and relief workers on their soil now than you think. This is Pakistan’s worst natural disaster since 1926.
Why is the idea of a joint relief corps so inconceivable? How many major Pakistani/Indian joint international operations have there been? Somalia in the early 1990s, Congo peacekeeping, to name just two.
Render,
Is this what you are referring to:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/08/taliban_al_qaeda_for.php
?
anand,
How about you sending an email to hamas and hezbullah with your suggestion? Be sure to post their complete reply here, as well as your complete email to them. Please include all headers. Good luck.
Anan…
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/08/taliban_al_qaeda_for.php
There is nothing left of that battalion to discuss. You and I do not and will not ever have anything off-line.
For all of the fancy names, titles, and pins in maps, the entire 201st “Corp” battlespace is little more then the area within Kabul where a single prataetorian guard battalion stands. That operation was touted as the ANA’s very first full battalion-sized totally independent operation and it turned into a debacle and a rout. Lions share of resources gone elsewhere? That operation used almost every single one of the ANA’s operational combat transport helicopters to move just one company into a blocking position behind the enemy positions, and then abandoned them there. The other two companies drove up in a column of Ford Ranger pick-ups and got turned into hamburger, with dozens of those trucks captured or destroyed. So where was the 3rd “brigade” of 201st “Corp” with its tanks and M-113′s? It’s supposed to be in Jalabad, or closer to the scene then Kabul is.
I know full well who “mentored” that battalion (USMC/civilian contractors). It wouldn’t matter if George Patton himself had mentored them, they were not ready for truely independent operations. Events show that quite clearly and beyond any shadow of a doubt.
So what? It’s a disaster for the ANA and the entire thing took place less then 100 miles from Kabul. That’s what.
You were asking for very detailed information concerning ANA response times, locations, and leadership for that very region. Now you have your answers, nil.
===
The Pakistani government might be open to accepting foreign troops, but the Pakistani people are not, nor have they been after other recent natural disasters (earthquake relief). Perhaps if the Pakistani government had invested billions of dollars in flood control instead of nuclear weapons they might be better off? After all, its not like this is the first time the Indus has flooded, it does so almost every year during the monsoon season – for thousands of years. Perhaps if Pakistan had not allowed whole cities to be built on flood plains with nothing more then earthen dikes to protect them?
The PA and HAMAS combined have zero ability to help others, they cannot even help themselves. Neither the PA nor HAMAS will ever voluntarily do anything that requires them to be in proximity to Jews, without killing or attempting to kill those same Jews. At the moment its highly unlikely that members of the PA and HAMAS can even be in the same room with each other, without attempting to kill each other.
It’s extremely unlikely that either the Pakistani government or the Pakistani people would be willing to accept aid from Jews, or allow Jews back into Pakistan. I say “back into” because Pakistan is yet another of those “religion of peace” nations that ethnically cleansed itself of all of its Jews over the last 50 years.
Pakistani and Indian troops involved in UNSCOM I and II (Somalia) had to be kept seperated from each other as much as possible. Pakistani and Indian troops serving in the Congo are also kept seperated from each other, still. Just as the Greek and Turkish battalions serving in Korea had to be kept seperated from each other by a British brigade, so they wouldn’t kill each other. All of that kind of defeats the concept of “jointness” doesn’t it? So how well did UNSCOM work out? Is there peace in Somalia nowadays, or not?
All of this is why you get no respect Anan. A ninth grade drop-out can understand just how wrong you are, about almost everything.
You want peace? Start with the other side of the line. Go argue with the jihadis, make them live up to that false “religion of peace” moniker. Try and explain to them just how fucked up their 7th century theology really is in the 21st century.
It’s not off-topic, because its all the same damn topic. It’s all the same damn war.
TIME
VAMPIRE,
R
Anan:
Would would everyone’s thoughts be about a joint Israeli/Palestinian Authority/Hamas/LAF/Hezbollah relief mission to Pakistan?
Can you hook me up with some of your drugs? This whole pot and alcohol thing gets old, ya know.
Del – Ayup. That’ the one.
Del (2) – I knew I should have checked the thread before posting. Get out of my head wouldya, I don’t have enough room in here as it is.
GONE
SHOOTIN,
R
Anand,
How life in that parallel universe? Have you read Neil Stephenson’s Anathema?
Or is it too much inhaling of that hookah?
Well written Render. I have less patience.
America through an American’s eye…
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/08/20/2010-08-20_we_wont_build_it_hardhats_say_no_way_they_will_work_on_wtc_mosque.html
Democratic Unions lean right in a rupture Obama failed to maneuver around. In fact, he stepped into it. Not a great side show for a Commander in Chief om quite a tight spot.
Convergence
of
Needs
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/index/display/avi-article-display/4714765689/articles/avionics-intelligence/news/2010/8/experimental-scramjet.html
“Rima Fakih, the first Muslim to wear the Miss USA crown (Miss Universe contest), has told a tabloid show that she thinks the Cordoba center shouldn’t be so close to Ground Zero: ” it shouldn’t be so close to the World Trade Center. We should be more concerned with the tragedy than religion.”
Let’s not nitpick what the young lady does or doesn’t reflect about Islam; she self-identifies as Muslim, and gets my admiration for her statement.
Why my post #115 “is awaiting moderation” has me curious; it can’t be the use of the term “Muslim”, since I used that in #114.
What you see as “115″ is not what I typed as 115. Now I’m more annoyed than just curious, PJ. Show me how I violated your guidelines and I’ll acknowledge it.
Let’s see if this awaits moderation: pc nanny state bullshit.
Sorry, Michael, for losing my temper in your salon, but you guys know the character of my posts.
The essence of what I posted is that this young lady, who self-identifies as Muslim, has my admiration for stating her views publicly.
#97 Maxtrue.
We’ve discussed the credibility of Debka before. I linked to the Debka piece because I thought that was one hell of a scenario, if this is something fanciful on Debka’s part, perhaps they should go into making movies because the Debka scenario sure sounds like a winning plot to me.
Leaving aside the credibility of Debka, nothing would surprise me about Iraq’s future (or lack thereof).
I’m going to read your link to obscurantism shortly, I don’t understand the relation to the topic.
#97 Maxtrue.
I still don’t see what obscurantism has to do with Debka.
As you said, readers must judge Debka reports for themselves. I cannot say what Debka’s motives are, sensational reports may be a way of staying in business, perhaps they use military or ex-military sources that leak ”gossip” – I especially like their usual introductory, ”our sources say …..”
But, are they worse than, say, The New York Times or The Washington Post?
#98 Paul S.
I’ve read quite a few articles by Daniel Doron over the years. He is one of the very few who write with any degree of accuracy re: Israel’s economy, more specifically, how this relates to politics. My impression is that Israelis have very little understanding of economics, our educational system is, to put it mildly, pretty crappy.
Israel’s political system is a classic example of immobilism, systemic paralysis.
And, if I can say that, considering where I come from ……
But, also considering where I come from, I know all about oligarchy.
Terry,
What struck me was the 70% figure; if I was receiving a 30% level of results from anything, I’d be giving alternatives serious consideration.
#123 Paul S.
Here’s a link to Daniel Doron’s website, even if you don’t feel like reading the articles, just look at the titles of his articles & you get an idea of his orientation. My only gripe with Mr Doron was his role in the Shinui party (now defunct) which was militantly secular, anti-religious.
Paul S.
Sorry, forgot the link, it’s early morning, still didn’t have enough coffee.
http://www.danieldoron.com/
Monopolies become arrogant, lazy and deaf, in the absence of any incentives not to be. But why the benefits of competition aren’t apparent, defended, and vigorously promoted and demanded, puzzles me. I’ve told the story here before, about Soviet era grocers coming to my home town in America, and complaining about the “inefficiency” created by giving consumers a variety of products to choose from; much more efficient, from their collectivist perspective, to have one supplier, one distributor…
And here’s a link to a post at Hot Air on the renewal of direct talks with the Palestinians.
By Allahpundit, ”Hillary – Are You Ready for Some Israeli/Palestinian Peace Talks?”
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/08/20/hillary-are-you-ready-for-some-israelipalestinian-peace-talks/
As the man says, ”What could go wrong?”
#126 Paul S.
Israel is a semi-capitalist system defined by what I can only describe as crony capitalism. Another way to describe this system is, ”how to raise Jews for fun & profit.” – this system works like a giant vacuum cleaner, it just sucks the money up for the benefit of a few families & their hangers-on. This is a direct result of our unfortunate beginnings as a failed socialist state.
Israel’s relatively good economic performance recently is due to a very few free-market reforms & the success of the hi-tech sector which is less bound up with the old system.
“the hi-tech sector”
Is anything in a faster state of evolution and, consequently, more sensitive to even minor innovations offered by competitiors?
I admit not having read him yet but, if you have, what are your thoughts on George Gilder’s perspective on Israeli entreprenurialism?
And kudos to Michael Totten for putting George Gilder on my (long) will-read-someday list.
#129 Paul S.
I haven’t read it either, only some reviews.
I have mixed feelings about Mr Gilder.
Israeli entreprenurialism is confined to only a few sectors of the economy, hi-tech, of course, being one of them.
Terry, you seem to be describing something akin to the entrenched phenomenon of career politics in America. In our case, however, the American electorate, armed with knowledge and the will, could remind all politicians they serve at our pleasure. For consumers though, competition is their only voting booth.
Slumber once again beckons. Bon soir.
Terry, I posted the Juan Coles link above regarding the light reactor. Real journalism would address the points he made rather than get hysterical. Here, we are concerned with vetted facts. I have yet to see Debka post opposing views. Yes gossip, sensationalism, clearly distortion of facts to inflame. I think my link to Wiki was relevant as far as darkness is concerned.
“Simon Henderson, an eminent American expert on Iran, published an article Thursday on the imminent inauguration of the Bushehr reactor in which he stressed that the fuel rods it uses could produce enough plutonium-rich residue for building at least one nuclear bomb a year.
The plant will moreover provide cover for training an entire generation of Iranian nuclear scientists and technicians for its weapons industry. After all, the regime’s nuclear and missile programs involved “evasion” and “an array of deceptive practices.” Debka
This is actually from Henderson’s article:
“Theoretically, the process is modeled on best practices in use worldwide. Russia is supplying the low-enriched uranium fuel, and the International Atomic Energy Agency will inspect the reactor regularly. Once the fuel rods are used up, they will be removed, immersed in water for several years to diminish their radiological hazard, and then returned to Russia in special railcars for reprocessing.
Nevertheless, safety concerns persist. One fear is of a nuclear accident similar to the 1986 Chernobyl disaster, which led to widespread contamination. Prevailing winds and sea currents in the northern Persian Gulf would mean that any radioactive leakage from Bushehr would quickly reach southern Iraq, Kuwait, and parts of Saudi Arabia. Potential earthquake damage is a concern as well; Iran has several major fault lines covering 90 percent of the country. And a reminder of the possibility of an aircraft crashing into the reactor building came just this week, when the crew of an Iranian fighter aircraft ejected a few miles away.” And Debka doesan’t even bother to link readers to their source. Hell, Debka missed the earthquake potential in Iran……perhaps the Mullahs should keep prostitution far from the reactor.
I can see why Michael calls Debka the WND of the ME.
Earthquakes, of course caused by promiscuity, that is….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/aug/21/julian-assange-wikileaks-arrest-warrant-sweden
Hilarious…
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/08/taliban_commander_li_2.php
Iran in Afghanistan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11049316
Assange dodges this one.
“Once the fuel rods are used up, they will be…returned to Russia in special railcars for reprocessing.”
And what could possibly go wrong there? Will the IAEA inspecting “regularly” allow neighbors to sleep peacefully? The mullahs granting it the power to do what? Supervise quality of construction and operation? Fault zones can be planned around but not “planned” away, proximity and high quality containment being the keys.
So let’s reach out, and lend a hand, shall we? Good grief, Charlie Brown.
Paul, do you know how the rods are removed? Again, I ask all to read Cole’s post above (see link) and explain how he wrong. Then we can talk about what could happen. Yes, Iran could pull a NK, but then that would clearly move Russia hard to our side.
We are certainly walking the edge, but then by allowing this plant to open, the regime has placed a target on their back with each incremental move towards the abyss….
http://pollack.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/3053/some-straight-talk-about-iran#more-288
A view, although I don’t go along with all of it. There has been a silence in Israel in even debating the facts and precise fears.
Perhaps Michael can get some Israeli expert to add to the “straight talk” above and address the actual problems here. And I am certainly one who prefers to be in Israel’s corner.
How the rods are removed is just one additional step that could go wrong; it’s the shipped-on-a-rail-car-to-Russia part that’s troubling enough, along with all of the other, ongoing quality control issues.
Murphy’s law is waiting in the wings, given who we’re talking about.
Render, no one here besides the two of us seems interested in or informed about Afghanistan. Perhaps you would prefer to continue this discussion about Registan?
“There is nothing left of that battalion to discuss.” Not true. Only 300 troop from that bn was involved based on public source. Or 2 combat companies [maybe 3 understrength COYs.] The bn remains. I haven’t yet been able to get firm data on casualties. Some mutual friends of ours think ANA General Staff and ISAF are keeping quiet for now.
“the entire 201st “Corp” battlespace is little more then the area within Kabul where a single prataetorian guard battalion stands.” With all due respect, that is completely inaccurate. How many actual soldiers in or advisors for 201 ANA have you spoken to? Why don’t you interview an officer from 201 ANA and directly ask them questions? Not kidding. If you want to be put in touch with them, you have a channel to do it.
201 ANA has its own PAOs and has been publishing a weekly magazine for several years. A lot about the Corps is known:
http://www.dvidshub.net/publication/266/the-flood
Some of my friends and I have many data points into 201 ANA [and other ANSF formations.] I have always rated 201 as one of the weaker ANA Corps. [I would rate from best to worst: 203, 209, 205, 111, 215, 201, 207.] 1-201 in particular has had problems for many years. Many of them for reasons I don’t know or can merely speculate on.
Kabul [soon greater Kabul . . . to include parts of Kapisha, maybe Parwan, maybe other provinces] no longer belongs to 201 ANA. 201 ANA has 10 provinces at present.
“That operation was touted as the ANA’s very first full battalion-sized totally independent operation” by extremely stupid and uniformed journalists. Many ANA brigades and battalions have been conducting independent operations for years. Heck 203 ANA Corps has conducted Corps level independent operations. Currently, 203 ANA Commanding Major General Abdul Khaliq leads a joint headquarters that commands all ANA and ISAF in his battlespace. His deputy is a Deputy Commanding Brigadier General for CJTF-101/RC-North. 203 ANA Corps, as you know, is leagues ahead of every other ANA Corps or Division.
“That operation used almost every single one of the ANA’s operational combat transport helicopters to move just one company into a blocking position behind the enemy positions, and then abandoned them there.” Could you provide sourcing or off the record sourcing on this, even if offline. Have been trying to collect information on exactly what happened. Are you sure an entire ANA company was deployed behind enemy positions? What does your source state about the performance of the ANA unit deployed by helo? They might have done a decent job [no clear data either way]. It was the two companies in the column that got routed in a well planned ambush.
“That operation used almost every single one of the ANA’s operational combat transport helicopters to move just one company into a blocking position behind the enemy positions, and then abandoned them there.” Not all AAF Mi17s were used in this operation. The AAF seemed to do all right in this operation based on incomplete early info.
“The other two companies drove up in a column of Ford Ranger pick-ups and got turned into hamburger, with dozens of those trucks captured or destroyed.” This appears to have happened. Do you have any data suggesting that actual ANA vehicles were capture rather than destroyed?
“So where was the 3rd “brigade” of 201st “Corp” with its tanks and M-113’s? It’s supposed to be in Jalabad, or closer to the scene then Kabul is.” No. That is not where 3-201 ANA [now remained 3-111] is. Have a lot of data on 3-111. Thinking of writing a piece on it.
“I know full well who “mentored” that battalion (USMC/civilian contractors)” 1-201 was a French mentored brigade. [The French have subsequently assumed responsibility for mentoring two more ANA brigades.] 2 of 1-201 ANA’s battalions are Portuguese mentored. Based on the fact that a French QRF deployed to support the bn, there is a significant chance that the bn in question was either French or Portuguese mentored. Could significantly elaborate on this.
“It wouldn’t matter if George Patton himself had mentored them, they were not ready for truely independent operations. Events show that quite clearly and beyond any shadow of a doubt.” Um, mentors really matter.
“It’s a disaster for the ANA and the entire thing took place less then 100 miles from Kabul. That’s what.” Don’t agree that it was a big disaster for the ANA. A modest setback with little tactical consequence for the overall war.
@ Shavua Tov ,Terry
Je t’invite aux discussions sur cet excellent site dans la langue de Molière !
http://jssnews.com/
#147 Trumpeldor.
Je te remercie, je regarderai un peu plus tard.
Mais, on ne doit pas trop ecrire en francais sur une site anglophone, ca manque de politesse.
Je ne connaisais pas JSS – je ne lis que rarement en francais depuis que j’habite en Israel.
A modest setback….lol
Kool Aid Anan, Kool Aid
Hey, here’s a messenger of peace from Iran….
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11052023
Trumpledor
Thanks for the link.
Its always interesting to see what viewpoints there are with other languages/cultures.
Although I am not completely fluent its still good enough to speak reasonably well (mais pas trop vite) and to read the newspapers.
And it is useful in Canada, anyway, to be bilingual
You know, Max,
Its really getting tiresome to see every day some new scientific/military wonder coming out of that thugocracy.
My prediction is that by end of the year they will announce:
1. Special shoes to make the IRG walk on water
2. An invisibility cloaking device
3. A helmet to enable the IRC to read peoples minds
4. A set of goggles to see through buidings (and burqas)
5. A drug to cure all forms of cancer, but only in Shiites
6. A special very light-weight but completely invincible armour.
And that only until the end of December
@ yesjb,
It is like swimming,you must begin by putting your toes into the water!
I am pretty sure you will be great ! Bienvenu !
yesjb,
I want China to knockoff home versions for export of the helmet and goggles. Oh, and a StarTrek holodeck too.
Anan – “Render, no one here besides the two of us seems interested in or informed about Afghanistan. Perhaps you would prefer to continue this discussion about Registan?”
R – I think you’re wrong about that. I suspect there are quite a few people here who are interested in and/or informed about Afghanistan. They’re just not interested in discussing that matter with you. The Registan is in Uzbekistan, or did you mean Joshua Foust’s blog? If you meant Mr. Foust’s blog, you might want to ask his permission first.
Anan – “Not true. Only 300 troop from that bn was involved based on public source. Or 2 combat companies [maybe 3 understrength COYs.] The bn remains. I haven’t yet been able to get firm data on casualties. Some mutual friends of ours think ANA General Staff and ISAF are keeping quiet for now.”
R – The Afghan Kandak’s (battalions) are reputed to have 600 men in four companies each. You’re not likely to ever get “firm” data on casualties, from either side. I already know about the news blackout on the region and the events in question, it’s blindingly obvious. Judging from the open source reporting that has escaped the blackout thus far, one of those three companies, (the helicopter landed blocking force), suffered up to 80% casualties. The two truck mounted companies took between 20% and 45% casualties and lost 35 of their trucks, (six men to a pick-up = 210 men or around two companies). At the very least that’s half of that Kandak rendered combat non-effective. That’s about as accurate as open source gets under a media black-out. The only thing that remains effective about that battalion is its name.
Anan – “With all due respect, that is completely inaccurate. How many actual soldiers in or advisors for 201 ANA have you spoken to? Why don’t you interview an officer from 201 ANA and directly ask them questions? Not kidding. If you want to be put in touch with them, you have a channel to do it.”
R – It’s an observation and an opinion based on numerous trusted sources and open source reporting. Given current events in question it seems a great deal more accurate then you’re implying. The ANA/ANP doesn’t control anything, anywhere outside of the area around Kabul and the ground they stand on. The Coalition/ISAF is in control of those areas that the Taliban doesn’t control. Why would I trust any member of the ANA? No, thank you, I already have my own trusted sources in country. Are you certain you understand what the term “due respect” means?
Anan – “201 ANA has its own PAOs and has been publishing a weekly magazine for several years. A lot about the Corps is known:”
http://www.dvidshub.net/publication/266/the-flood
R – Uh-huh, dividshub is linked on my blogroll and has been since the day I opened up my little blog. Perhaps the ANA would be better off concentrating on getting its combat soldiers off of the hash pipe, rather then wasting uniforms and money on non-combat PAO’s?
Anan – “Some of my friends and I have many data points into 201 ANA [and other ANSF formations.] I have always rated 201 as one of the weaker ANA Corps. [I would rate from best to worst: 203, 209, 205, 111, 215, 201, 207.] 1-201 in particular has had problems for many years. Many of them for reasons I don’t know or can merely speculate on.”
R – You have friends, or people you pump for as much information as you can get? I rate the entire ANA as weak, the ANP as worse then weak. The ANA just proved that it cannot stand or operate on its own against the Taliban and the ANP is riddled with corruption and Taliban sympathizers.
Anan – “Kabul [soon greater Kabul . . . to include parts of Kapisha, maybe Parwan, maybe other provinces] no longer belongs to 201 ANA. 201 ANA has 10 provinces at present.”
R – Shifting non-effective and/or non-existent units around a map does not equate to control, of anything.
Anan – “That operation was touted as the ANA’s very first full battalion-sized totally independent operation” by extremely stupid and uniformed journalists.”
R – No, the touting came from the ANA and ISAF themselves via their own uniformed journalists as the operation began. It was repeated by uninformed journalists after the fact.
Anan – “Many ANA brigades and battalions have been conducting independent operations for years. Heck 203 ANA Corps has conducted Corps level independent operations. Currently, 203 ANA Commanding Major General Abdul Khaliq leads a joint headquarters that commands all ANA and ISAF in his battlespace. His deputy is a Deputy Commanding Brigadier General for CJTF-101/RC-North. 203 ANA Corps, as you know, is leagues ahead of every other ANA Corps or Division.”
R – Being ambushed in convoys or blown up by Talib IED’s is not the definition of independent operations. Driving from point A to point B is not an independent operation. Having the commander of the US 101st ABN Div as your “deputy commander” rather defeats the definition of the word “independent”, doesn’t it?
Anan – “That operation used almost every single one of the ANA’s operational combat transport helicopters to move just one company into a blocking position behind the enemy positions, and then abandoned them there.” Could you provide sourcing or off the record sourcing on this, even if offline. Have been trying to collect information on exactly what happened. Are you sure an entire ANA company was deployed behind enemy positions? What does your source state about the performance of the ANA unit deployed by helo? They might have done a decent job [no clear data either way]. It was the two companies in the column that got routed in a well planned ambush.”
R – The ANA-AF, such as it is, has around 30 operational Mi-17′s, most of those are detailed to VIP transport. No, I’m not going to reveal my sources in public, or to you in private. According to the open source reporting the bulk of one company was transported in a single flight, there were no follow-on flights. Again, open source reporting states that up to 80% of that blocking company was wiped out in place. All three companies got mauled.
Anan – “Not all AAF Mi17s were used in this operation. The AAF seemed to do all right in this operation based on incomplete early info.”
R – Right, the remaining Mi-17′s are detailed to VIP transport. That would be why I wrote “almost every single one” as opposed to writing “every single one.” Almost every single version of this story mentions that there were no follow-on flights, and no air support until Coalition air arrived on the scene.
Anan – “This appears to have happened. Do you have any data suggesting that actual ANA vehicles were capture rather than destroyed?”
R – One of the MSM versions (either NYTimes or BBC) states that a Talib commander was seen driving around in a captured Ford Ranger after the fighting. I rather doubt he kept it for long.
Anan – “No. That is not where 3-201 ANA [now remained 3-111] is. Have a lot of data on 3-111. Thinking of writing a piece on it.”
R – I didn’t say it was there, I said it was supposed to be there. You keep thinking, maybe you can come up with a reliable source for Soviet pattern 115mm tank ammo.
Anan – “I know full well who “mentored” that battalion (USMC/civilian contractors)” 1-201 was a French mentored brigade. [The French have subsequently assumed responsibility for mentoring two more ANA brigades.] 2 of 1-201 ANA’s battalions are Portuguese mentored. Based on the fact that a French QRF deployed to support the bn, there is a significant chance that the bn in question was either French or Portuguese mentored. Could significantly elaborate on this.”
R – It was French mentored at one time, but most recently by the USMC/contractors. Note that the French PAO was very insistent that no French troops were involved, either in the initial operation, or the rescue/recovery operation that followed. If the French Army says they were not involved in combat, I see no reason to disbelieve them.
Anan – “It wouldn’t matter if George Patton himself had mentored them, they were not ready for truly independent operations. Events show that quite clearly and beyond any shadow of a doubt.” Um, mentors really matter.”
R – The only thing that matters is the end results. Which speak for themselves.
Anan – “Don’t agree that it was a big disaster for the ANA. A modest setback with little tactical consequence for the overall war.”
R – Don’t care whether or not you agree. Neither does the ANA/ANP, ISAF, or the Talib. With elements of at least four different US combat brigades, a couple of PRT’s, and several SOCOM task forces operating in the same region, you’re correct, the event in question is of little or no tactical significance to the overall short term consequences regarding US operations. Other then the loss of a nominally allied combat battalion equipped, trained, and mentored at great expense. Long term it does not bode well for the prospect of the ANA being able to defend itself after US/ISAF forces leave. It also provides something of a propaganda coup for the Talib. One of several such coups over the last month.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/13/world/asia/13afghan.html?src=me
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10963556
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/08/taliban_al_qaeda_for.php
http://www.rttnews.com/Content/GeneralNews.aspx?Node=B1&Id=1393616
http://www.snappingturtle.net/flit/archives/2010_08_13.html#006766
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/world/asia/21afghan.html?_r=3
R – Anan, you would be better served to stop doing what you are doing and spend some time studying the 1985-1989 history of Soviet operations in the exact same regions of Afghanistan.
HISTORY IS
A MACHINE GUN,
R
The message is less about their technology which is decades old, nut “messenger of death”. Now that’s a great PR move.
nut=but
Anan – “Render, no one here besides the two of us seems interested in or informed about Afghanistan. Perhaps you would prefer to continue this discussion about Registan?”
R – I think you’re wrong about that. I suspect there are quite a few people here who are interested in and/or informed about Afghanistan. They’re just not interested in discussing that matter with you. The Registan is in Uzbekistan, or did you mean Joshua Foust’s blog? If you meant Mr. Foust’s blog, you might want to ask his permission first.
Anan – “Not true. Only 300 troop from that bn was involved based on public source. Or 2 combat companies [maybe 3 understrength COYs.] The bn remains. I haven’t yet been able to get firm data on casualties. Some mutual friends of ours think ANA General Staff and ISAF are keeping quiet for now.”
R – The Afghan Kandak’s (battalions) are reputed to have 600 men in four companies each. You’re not likely to ever get “firm” data on casualties, from either side. I already know about the news blackout on the region and the events in question, it’s blindingly obvious. Judging from the open source reporting that has escaped the blackout thus far, one of those three companies, (the helicopter landed blocking force), suffered up to 80% casualties. The two truck mounted companies took between 20% and 45% casualties and lost 35 of their trucks, (six men to a pick-up = 210 men or around two companies). At the very least that’s half of that Kandak rendered combat non-effective. That’s about as accurate as open source gets under a media black-out. The only thing that remains effective about that battalion is its name.
Anan – “With all due respect, that is completely inaccurate. How many actual soldiers in or advisors for 201 ANA have you spoken to? Why don’t you interview an officer from 201 ANA and directly ask them questions? Not kidding. If you want to be put in touch with them, you have a channel to do it.”
R – It’s an observation and an opinion based on numerous trusted sources and open source reporting. Given current events in question it seems a great deal more accurate then you’re implying. The ANA/ANP doesn’t control anything, anywhere outside of the area around Kabul and the ground they stand on. The Coalition/ISAF is in control of those areas that the Taliban doesn’t control. Why would I trust any member of the ANA? No, thank you, I already have my own trusted sources in country. Are you certain you understand what the term “due respect” means?
Anan – “201 ANA has its own PAOs and has been publishing a weekly magazine for several years. A lot about the Corps is known:”
http://www.dvidshub.net/publication/266/the-flood
R – Uh-huh, dividshub is linked on my blogroll and has been since the day I opened up my little blog. Perhaps the ANA would be better off concentrating on getting its combat soldiers off of the hash pipe, rather then wasting uniforms and money on non-combat PAO’s?
Anan – “Some of my friends and I have many data points into 201 ANA [and other ANSF formations.] I have always rated 201 as one of the weaker ANA Corps. [I would rate from best to worst: 203, 209, 205, 111, 215, 201, 207.] 1-201 in particular has had problems for many years. Many of them for reasons I don’t know or can merely speculate on.”
R – You have friends, or people you pump for as much information as you can get? I rate the entire ANA as weak, the ANP as worse then weak. The ANA just proved that it cannot stand or operate on its own against the Taliban and the ANP is riddled with corruption and Taliban sympathizers.
Anan – “Kabul [soon greater Kabul . . . to include parts of Kapisha, maybe Parwan, maybe other provinces] no longer belongs to 201 ANA. 201 ANA has 10 provinces at present.”
R – Shifting non-effective and/or non-existent units around a map does not equate to control, of anything.
Anan – “That operation was touted as the ANA’s very first full battalion-sized totally independent operation” by extremely stupid and uniformed journalists.”
R – No, the touting came from the ANA and ISAF themselves via their own uniformed journalists as the operation began. It was repeated by uninformed journalists after the fact.
Anan – “Many ANA brigades and battalions have been conducting independent operations for years. Heck 203 ANA Corps has conducted Corps level independent operations. Currently, 203 ANA Commanding Major General Abdul Khaliq leads a joint headquarters that commands all ANA and ISAF in his battlespace. His deputy is a Deputy Commanding Brigadier General for CJTF-101/RC-North. 203 ANA Corps, as you know, is leagues ahead of every other ANA Corps or Division.”
R – Being ambushed in convoys or blown up by Talib IED’s is not the definition of independent operations. Driving from point A to point B is not an independent operation. Having the commander of the US 101st ABN Div as your “deputy commander” rather defeats the definition of the word “independent”, doesn’t it?
Anan – “That operation used almost every single one of the ANA’s operational combat transport helicopters to move just one company into a blocking position behind the enemy positions, and then abandoned them there.” Could you provide sourcing or off the record sourcing on this, even if offline. Have been trying to collect information on exactly what happened. Are you sure an entire ANA company was deployed behind enemy positions? What does your source state about the performance of the ANA unit deployed by helo? They might have done a decent job [no clear data either way]. It was the two companies in the column that got routed in a well planned ambush.”
R – The ANA-AF, such as it is, has around 30 operational Mi-17′s, most of those are detailed to VIP transport. No, I’m not going to reveal my sources in public, or to you in private. According to the open source reporting the bulk of one company was transported in a single flight, there were no follow-on flights. Again, open source reporting states that up to 80% of that blocking company was wiped out in place. All three companies got mauled.
Anan – “Not all AAF Mi17s were used in this operation. The AAF seemed to do all right in this operation based on incomplete early info.”
R – Right, the remaining Mi-17′s are detailed to VIP transport. That would be why I wrote “almost every single one” as opposed to writing “every single one.” Almost every single version of this story mentions that there were no follow-on flights, and no air support until Coalition air arrived on the scene.
Anan – “This appears to have happened. Do you have any data suggesting that actual ANA vehicles were capture rather than destroyed?”
R – One of the MSM versions (either NYTimes or BBC) states that a Talib commander was seen driving around in a captured Ford Ranger after the fighting. I rather doubt he kept it for long.
Anan – “No. That is not where 3-201 ANA [now remained 3-111] is. Have a lot of data on 3-111. Thinking of writing a piece on it.”
R – I didn’t say it was there, I said it was supposed to be there. You keep thinking, maybe you can come up with a reliable source for Soviet pattern 115mm tank ammo.
Anan – “I know full well who “mentored” that battalion (USMC/civilian contractors)” 1-201 was a French mentored brigade. [The French have subsequently assumed responsibility for mentoring two more ANA brigades.] 2 of 1-201 ANA’s battalions are Portuguese mentored. Based on the fact that a French QRF deployed to support the bn, there is a significant chance that the bn in question was either French or Portuguese mentored. Could significantly elaborate on this.”
R – It was French mentored at one time, but most recently by the USMC/contractors. Note that the French PAO was very insistent that no French troops were involved, either in the initial operation, or the rescue/recovery operation that followed. If the French Army says they were not involved in combat, I see no reason to disbelieve them.
Anan – “It wouldn’t matter if George Patton himself had mentored them, they were not ready for truly independent operations. Events show that quite clearly and beyond any shadow of a doubt.” Um, mentors really matter.”
R – The only thing that matters is the end results. Which speak for themselves.
Anan – “Don’t agree that it was a big disaster for the ANA. A modest setback with little tactical consequence for the overall war.”
R – Don’t care whether or not you agree. Neither does the ANA/ANP, ISAF, or the Talib. With elements of at least four different US combat brigades, a couple of PRT’s, and several SOCOM task forces operating in the same region, you’re correct, the event in question is of little or no tactical significance to the overall short term consequences regarding US operations. Other then the loss of a nominally allied combat battalion equipped, trained, and mentored at great expense. Long term it does not bode well for the prospect of the ANA being able to defend itself after US/ISAF forces leave. It also provides something of a propaganda coup for the Talib. One of several such coups over the last month.
R – Anan, you would be better served to stop doing what you are doing and spend some time studying the 1985-1989 history of Soviet operations in the exact same regions of Afghanistan.
HISTORY IS
A MACHINE GUN,
R
Max,
“Nut messenger of death” works too. “Trustworthy steward of nuclear power” doesn’t.
Maxtrue, ‘nough with the snide comments.
As of 1 month ago, the ANA had between 42 to 55 combat battalions with 4 combat companies [and a HQs company] each. The balance of ANA combat battalions [including the two mech ones] had 3 combat companies each.
Gotten permission from NTM-A to publish some parts of the planned TO/E of the ANA by 12-2011:
-Either 81 or 90 ANA combat infantry battalions with 4 combat companies each [gotten confirmation that all ANA combat infantry battalions will have 4 combat companies each] No further growth planned.
-9 ANA commando battalions with 4 combat commando companies each
-1 Mechanized Battalion with 1 HQ Company, 1 Weapons Company, 3 Mechanized Companies
-1 Armored Battalion with 1 HQ Company, 1 Weapons Company, 1 Tank Company
-1 Special Forces Brigade Group with 4 Special Forces Battalion Headquarters and 18 A-teams per Battalion [72 A-teams for the ANASF Brigade]
Each ANA combat infantry battalion with 4 combat companies has just under 900 soldiers authorized.
“No, the touting came from the ANA and ISAF themselves via their own uniformed journalists as the operation began. It was repeated by uninformed journalists after the fact.” This is so inaccurate, I don’t know where to start. It might have been the first independent operation for the battalion in question. Who told you this crap?
Several friends and I have been trying to determine what happened to the 1-201 ANA bn, with limited success. I have never seen the account you described. Would you mind sharing your sources? Or posting an article about it?
“Note that the French PAO was very insistent that no French troops were involved, either in the initial operation, or the rescue/recovery operation that followed.” Is there a source for this? If this is true, then almost every report on the incident is wrong. It was reported from multiple sources that a French QRF was sent to assist the ANA bn. Can you confirm that USMC/contractors mentored this battalion? If it was formerly French mentored, that would rule out the two 1-201 Portuguese mentored battalions [unless the Portuguese switched battalions which is unlikely.]
How to get in touch with French PAOs? French mentored 3-111 and French mentored newly forming 3-201 are responsive to RFIs [requests for information.] But I have never heard of a response from the commanding French General or his PAO.
3-111′s battle-space is Kapisha [where they are in the lead] and probably parts of Parwan. They also serve as QRF for Kabul. Why would they role all the way out to Nangarhar or Laghman? The ANA QRF in Laghman is 2-201 ANA.
Kunar/Nuristan/Nangarhar/Laghman belong to 2-201 ANA. Recently 4-201 ANA started forming. It is assigned to the same four provinces. My guess is 4-201 ANA gets Nangarhar.
The former RC-East commanding MG told a couple friends of mine that they were getting rid of USMC OMLTs/ETTs from 201 ANA and moving towards “combined partnership” and embedded partnering. Has the new RC-East commanding MG changed policy?
“Having the commander of the US 101st ABN Div as your “deputy commander” rather defeats the definition of the word “independent”, doesn’t it?” You don’t get it. 203rd ANA’s TOC is a joint ANA/ISOF HQs that commands all ANA “AND” ISAF in 203 ANA’s battlespace. It is a “combined” HQs. 203 ANA is capable of independently running its own operations, but this way it coordinates all ISAF operations in its battlespace as well. 201 ANA is not capable of doing this. Nor is any other ANA Corps HQs, other than maybe 209th ANA [which to my knowledge doesn't do this.]
One problematic bn in the ANA isn’t a big deal.
2003, more than 50 IA Bns and 8 Bdes had to be reformed/retrained or replaced. [Just IA-not incl FP] Failures, mostly due to lack of unit cohesion and command problems. The IA won the war in 2008. No military is perfect.
Fortunately, the Taliban are not that formidable, generally speaking. The only Taliban capable of leading quality bn level operations are Lashkar al Zil [including Bdes 313/095], LeT, TTP, TNSM, Siraj. To my knowledge the Mullah Centric QST commands no such forces.
Render, you know a lot. So do some friends and I. It would be a lot more beneficial if we could share information collaboratively. Have a lot of information, accounts, and e-mails that I can’t understand or interpret. Guessing you do as well.
Have heard many many first hand horror accounts of the ANSF. Don’t deny that is part of the picture, but only a part of the picture. Please don’t lose the forest for the trees.
To be clear, 201st ANA HQs also has combined partnership with RC-East and a joint HQs that manages all 201 ANA and ISAF in its battle-space. However, the 201 ANA HQs is not that far along.
Many parts of this bn incident are confusing. Did 201 ANA HQs sign off on the mission? If so, then almost by definition, CJTF-101/RC-North Deputy Commander Brigadier General knew about it. He commands or coordinates all ISAF/OEF assets in 201 ANA’s battlespace on behalf of RC-East/CJTF-101′s commanding MG.
Who is 1-201 ANA’s lead adviser?
If I could just point out that the European comparison is utterly invalid. Even if Europeans believe that States and military policy result in wars and things like the Holocaust, this ignores the fact that Frenchmen and Dutchmen and Germans have never suffered anything like the race-based, culture-based depredations against Jews over THOUSANDS OF YEARS, including the boiling point of the twentieth century, from the Dreyfus affair’s revelations about French attitudes toward Jews all the way to the Pale and the Nazi ‘final solution’.
Jews are DIFFERENT. Jews will be DESTROYED if they try to act like they’re NOT different. The rest of the world appears to be trying to convince them to act like there’s no difference, and by this eventually sow the seeds of the destruction of the Jewish people. Because certain factions are still out to destroy them. And it is NOT just Islam.
borders, a military, an aggressive defense posture, all these things are necessary for Israel like they are for no other nation in the world. Because they are a Jewish nation. And because history has taught them these things.
Anan – Go back and read the links contained near the bottom of my comment #154. Don’t just skim them, read them.
From the NYTimes link – “The International Security Assistance Force referred all questions about the operation to Afghan officials. “We can’t confirm information past what the M.O.D. released since this started as a unilateral Afghan operation,” said Col. Hans E. Bush, a spokesman for the NATO mission in Afghanistan. He added that a “personnel recovery” operation was under way, using the term for a rescue operation for wounded, dead or missing soldiers.” – So it looks like Col. Hans E. Bush (among others)told me that “crap.” Feel free to take it up with Col. Bush.
I doubt seriously that there was ever anything truly “independent” or “unilateral” about that ANA operation. If for no other reason then the ANA-AF can’t even fuel its helicopters without Coalition supervision. And that Anan, is the point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2F80llZ5F4
http://www.stripes.com/news/troops-fear-corruption-outweighs-progress-of-afghan-forces-1.97195
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr/30/mentors-in-afghanistan/
http://outsidethewire.com/blog/afghanistan/the-commander-and-zombie-killers-ii-on-mission.html
===
All: My apologies for the massive double-posting. I was afraid the version with all the links wouldn’t make it out of moderation.
===
Max – Snide away, with my compliments.
FARVE
IS
OLD,
R
Anan is lucky its only snide. Yes Paul, nut works too. Let’s be clear. I think a reactor for Iran is dangerous on many levels. I think it was a mistake however, to take the line Debka and others take even today. If Iran suddenly diverted cargo trains of fuel, the Russians would be damaged greatly. Then the strike will remove the regime and Obama could do little to stop it. When you allow certain technology and the regimes cheats, then the technology becomes secondary to the dangers of the regime.
As far as the “messenger of death”, if the PLA is limited by positioning network, the Iranians are back in the Middle Ages. Allegedly drones crashed into their reactor dome…
Quote of the week was the GZ mosque leader saying that in the tradition of Islam the welcome center will bring all religions together in harmony. In Pakistan aid is deliberately withheld from non-Muslims. In Afghanistan Muslims kill Muslims. In Iraq Muslims kill Muslims and also other religions. In Egypt clerics advocate attacks on Christians. The message is hardly one of tolerance and harmony. I didn’t see much harmony at GZ yesterday.
Thanks for the follow through Render
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/08/shiite_zarqawi_retur.php
http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/a-fun-video-of-the-israeli-merkava-tank/
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3ac5ea1e7a-d7ef-40de-8f65-ab582c3519b4&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
Messenger of bullshit
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/08/u-s-hopes-afghan-troops-can-pass-1st-grade-someday/
For Anan
Referencing yet another of Anan’s (comment #109) bizarre “data points”…And nice job by Anan proving my comment #102.
“Why is the idea of a joint relief corps so inconceivable? How many major Pakistani/Indian joint international operations have there been? Somalia in the early 1990s, Congo peacekeeping, to name just two.”
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AF_CONGO_RAPES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2010-08-23-13-39-40
So how’s that joint peacekeeping thing working out in the Congo?
NOT,
R
Render, Anon hasn’t even dealt with the literacy problem. We asked him some time back what the Turks do in Afghanistan.
Hey, besides the rock of David, there is also the sound of Jericho: http://news.discovery.com/tech/sound-bullets-newtons-cradle.html (meta-materials are important here)
In a similar vein, the triangulation of powerful sonar waves converging on a sub’s hull, wouldn’t be too cool. I think the DOD is already on that one. The fight here over the LCS shows some lack of vision about the systems unfolding. The inability to improve their economic system may prove a grave threat to Israel. You did mention Israel’s bad experience with larger ships, but a stealth LCS packing rail and Dew modules along with drones would be a tactical advantage. Still, perhaps there are other more important systems.
“many Europeans think national sovereignty and military force are what lead to events like the Holocaust.”
I’ve been trying, unsuccessfully to wrap my brain around this perspective; defense as provocation? I watched Frank Capra’s “The Battle of Russia” (1943) from the “Why We Fight” series. Russia’s abundant natural resources are listed in bushels, barrels and tons. Would Euros with even a smattering of historical knowledge suggest that not raw materials or potential slave labor but a national identity’s determined, armed defense triggered Germany’s march to the East?
History, vanishing from memory like yesterday’s clouds.
Render, not ignoring you. Brain is a little baked and got some other stuff to do near term. Will try to read your links when I can and respond to you. Have heard many accounts of ANSF in Afghanistan. Varies greatly by region and unit. Of course the Afghans love to shoot their guns. Not always focusing on the aiming :LOL: There have been many independent ANSF operations for some time.
“Anon hasn’t even dealt with the literacy problem.” Care to clarify? ANSF currently train 27 K active duty ANSF in literacy [1st to 3rd grade.] These are usually part time students. 27 K doesn’t include ANSF studying literacy within the training throughput. The number rises to 100 K being given 1st to 3rd grade literacy training at any given point of time by early 2011. Another 4th to 6th grade literacy module is being introduced, and will probably be available to any active duty ANSF who wants it. In many cases instructors go out to remote outposts for even 1 to a few soldiers. Which is how they plan to train 100 K active duty ANSF at any given point of time for 1st to 6th grade literacy.
All officers are educated. NCOs also get extra literacy training through their 1 U NCO course and other NCO courses.
On Turkey, I can ask this question if you want. Turkey is significantly increasing its contribution in the coming months. Turkey is one of 4 countries that train ANA officers [along with lead country France, the US, and India.] Turkey is one of 3 countries that train ANA NCOs along with lead country UK, and the US. 3,300 ANA NCOs are trained at any given point of time. Of these 600 are trained by Turkey at the Turkish built and run Ghazi Military Training Center [GMTC.] Turkey “may” also be involved in senior NCO training at the Afghan Defense University or ADU.
ADU plans to train 7 thousand ANA officers and ANA senior NCOs at any given time. This is in addition to 3,300 junior to mid grade NCOs being trained at any given time and the at least 2,200 ANA Officer Selection Course officer candidates being trained at any given point of time. Turkey plays an outsized role in all of these three function. Turkey has had major influenced on ANSF doctrine, culture and practices. Have interacted with some ISAF trainers who discuss their very positive collaboration with the Turks.
Turkey’s role in ANP has been even larger to date. Although the US finally began to chip in in November, 2009.
Turkey is likely to run one of the 4 Afghan Border Police academies. Turkey is likely to continue training 1 thousand ANP officers at any given point of time inside Turkey. [current cycle is 600, but next cycle is planned to be 1,000.]
Turkey plays a major role in ANCOP/ANP officer training inside Afghanistan.
Turkey leads PRT in Wardak, trains ANP in Wardak. Turks claim their ANP are better than other ISAF trained ANP.
Turkey is lead advisor for 111 ANA Division. [Note that ISAF has no security responsibilities in Kabul province, ANSF does that entirely on their own.] Kabul ANP are advised by Turkey. So far, Turkey hasn’t had to use their combat QRFs to support 111 ANA or Kabul provincial ANP. Suspect that Turkish embedded advisors have seen combat though. Turkey also advises at least 5 ANA battalions in 209 ANA and 111 ANA. [don't think the Turks mentor any battalions in 201 ANA any more, but could be wrong since Wardak is their province.]
Note that French, Greek, Italian mentors operate under Turkish OPCON in 111 ANA Division. All ANA heavy units and heavy equipment techical training schools are run or mentored by Greeks and French. All heavy ANA units are in 111 ANA Division and their Greek/French advisors are under Turkish OPCON.
That is why, Render, the heavy 3-111, wouldn’t go all the way out to Laghman. Turkish mentored 111 ANA plan to assume control over much of Kapisha and Parwan.
Turks seem to be increasing the number of ANA and ANP embedded advisors in Afghanistan.
This is a partial listing. Any specific clarifying questions? Hope this helps.
Take your time Anan, take all the way to Oct 2011 if you need…
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/world/asia/24military.html?partner=rss&emc=rss
“Over all, General Caldwell said it would not be until October 2011 — three months after the deadline for the start of American withdrawals set by Mr. Obama — that he will have finished building the Afghan security forces to their full capacity. For now, he said, “they cannot operate independently.”
===
I think most of the readers here are quite convinced that your brain has been completely baked all along.
3/111 or 3/201 or whatever name is currently assigned to whatever passes for the ANA’s heavy armor was in the wrong place to begin with. The high mountain valleys of RC-East are not suited to heavy armor, especially not to Soviet pattern T-62′s with their limited main-gun elevation (the Soviets found that out the hard way). That armor should have been another pin in the Helmand/Kandahar regions of RC-South’s maps two years ago.
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=gg44q6g8u0o&feature=channel
SENTENCING
PHASE,
R
http://twistedsifter.com/2009/10/can-your-boat-dive-100-feet-under-water/
Iran’s next secret weapon.
Night…..
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/international/afghan-military-operation-has-gone-badly-wrong-ny-times-480
“But when contacted, the spokesman for French troops in Afghanistan, Lieutenant Colonel Pierre-Yves Sarzaud, confirmed that Nato troops had been requested but denied that French units were involved. “There are no French soldiers in Laghman,” he said.”
NO
RESPECT
DUE,
R
Render, what are you talking about? Don’t you know everything is just fine?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/20/afghanistan.france
Deaf
Dumb
Blind
@ 24. Matthew M
This theory about different paradigms does not explain why internationalists would despise Israel for being a nation state, and at the same time endorse the Palestinian nation state.
By principle, either you are for or against nation states but you can’t support one and oppose the other.
So I don’t think the argument that tries to explain hatred towards Israel as hatred towards a strong nation state is valid.
Sorry if this has been mentioned before, I haven’t read through all comments.
Hey Anan, how are you going to spin this — a US general sends Obama a warning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11078966
I guess the ANA is having trouble with those benchmarks….
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100819112118.htm
For all who saw my link to Hierarchy of Needs, this will be funny. Self-actualization has been replaced with parenting. This shift could be a topic in itself……
Why are the faces of the arabs with their weapons always masked : like bank robbers and other criminal gangs?
http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2010/08/isi_shelters_top_afghan_taliba.php