My schedule in Israel is terrible in the sense that I have hardly any time to write anything, but excellent insofar as my time here is being extremely well-spent. I’ll be home in a week and will have a massive amount of material for you, and nothing else to do but write it all up.
In the meantime, take a look at Cinders of Lebanon and Our Proxy War in the Middle East by my friend and colleague Lee Smith. You will recall that he is the author of The Strong Horse: Power, Politics, and the Clash of Arab Civilizations
Excellent book by an excellent thinker
#1 Ali.
I read the first few pages at Amazon & indeed it looks good.
Did you ever read, ”Al-Muqaddimmah” by Ibn Khaldun? It’s one of the most insightful books I have ever read, all the more interesting because it was written in 1377.
Lee mentions Ibn Khaldun several times in his book.
Harvard has divested from Israel:
http://www.kabobfest.com/2010/08/harvard-divests-from-israel.html
Unfortunately this appears to be a rising tide.
No, but I probably will now. What version did you read? The one with 1500 pages?
@Ali:
No, that’s the Wikipedia article on “Muqadimmah”. The book is probably much longer.
#5 Ali.
I have the English translation by Franz Rosenthal, edited by N.J. Dawood. It’s an abridged version, about 450 pages.
It’s surprising how contempory the book is although the translator tries to keep a somewhat archaic style. Also, this version does not have footnotes so you have to look up many references.
Ali, there is an Arabic version available on the internet, the link is from the Wikepedia article on Ibn Khaldun.
#3 Michael Totten.
Actually, when I saw Ibn Khaldun mentioned, it sparked my interest in the book. Anyone who reads Ibn Khaldun when discussing contemporary Middle-East issues must be worth reading.
Also, rumour has it that you’re shlepping around with Ted Belman. Good choice.
I don’t really enjoy reading Arabic as much as English.
I prefer reading English myself rather than French.
I only prefer French for some works of literature & songs.
Many years ago I tried reading Jean-Paul Sartre, ”Meaning & Nothingness” I think was the title, in both French & English simultaneously. It was incomprehensible in both.
In any case, the Al-Muqadimmah is also available online in English.
It’s really worth reading, Ibn Khaldun was one hell of a smart guy.
Ali, Terry,
What characteristics of English make it a more satisfying reading medium for you?
Sartre, in English, was nearly as impenetrable for me; kind of like watching a Jean Luc Godard film where characters sit around discussing “existence.”
The language is just clearer and easier to read and understand. Read George Orwell’s essay “Politics and the English Language.” What he envisions as the future of the English language, if the rules he mentions are not followed, has happened to my language a long time ago. And besides, there isn’t anything that interests in Arabic thats useful. All Arab non-fiction is propaganda. All Arab fiction is too cleaned up and sanitized. I am sure it was once different…
Terry, why can’t you read Arabic? Did you attend a public school as a child?
#12
When I say all, I of course mean most.
#12 Paul S.
More very complicated questions from Paul S.
I went to school in America, both high school & university. So, partially, it’s just habit. Then, most of what I want to read is originally in English anyway so why read a translation? Then, of course, languages, are to a certain extent, culture-bound – the words refer to an actual environment, to actual concepts & things that are part of a culture. I’ll give an example.
If I say ”khobs” (bread in Arabic), in my mind, I see a specific kind of bread as well as a host of symbolic things, like bread is something sacred, there is a whole host of cultural baggage. When I say ”le pain” (bread in French), I think of a baguette or ”un pain de compagne” (a country-style bread). Bread in English means that awful sliced white bread.
Concepts & ideas are the same. Political ideas, science, etc. have a cultural context. The English cultural context is the meaning I want, the context of the modern world.
Ali,
Interesting and informative. Thank you. Particularly after hearing so many complaints from my Asian students about English as the language with “a thimbleful of rules and a basketful of exceptions.” Granted, their issues were often with the spoken language. They found idioms like “more or less”(“Well, which is it!?!”), and those silent letters, frustrating. When pronunciation evolves faster than spelling a language creates challenges.
Terry, I apologize for the complexity of the topics (but aren’t the most interesting ones usually that way?); it does make your responses richer though.
#15 Ali.
I don’t read Arabic because I went to a private school & they didn’t teach Arabic, instruction was in French. We didn’t speak Arabic at home either, just French & Spanish (Moroccan Ladino) although my father sometimes spoke Yiddish & Russian. I didn’t really learn to speak Arabic until I was 20 yrs old. I vaguely understood some Arabic because the maids only spoke Arabic.
My mother spoke a very beautiful Arabic dialect, not the Jewish dialect, but ”Fassi” (from Fes). This dialect was rich, it had a large vocabulary with specific words for everything.
But, in any case, the various Moroccan dialects are very different from the Classical Arabic taught in schools; Moroccan dialect is not a written language.
I started learning English at a very young age, so I never really had an issue with the language itself. I grew up watching American television shows, such as Seinfeld. I was for some reason leaps and bounds better than my classmates. Very few Americans can tell that I’m not from here.
#18 Paul S.
No need to apologize, I’m still having my morning coffee, so I rather enjoy a little conversation. I speak French all day (I’m speaking French as I write this) so it’s nice to write in English for a change.
#20 Ali.
People who don’t really speak English always tell me how well I speak. But native English speakers always ask me where I learned English. I speak every language with an accent, people from France always think I’m Canadian or Belgian. In Arabic, I speak with such a mix of Moroccan dialects it’s very funny but people always asked me if I was Algerian.
Seinfeld? They showed Seinfeld in Saudi Arabia?
#22
Yeah, they even showed it on a channel owned by a prince. If I ever met you, I probably couldn’t tell if you were Algerian or Moroccan or Tunisian, they’re all very difficult to understand, for me at least.
Television.
When I studied Spanish, briefly (to my regret, I didn’t continue with it), Mexican soap operas left me lost; the pace, the idioms. Like conversations on the bus. Frustrating. However, tv commercials helped; little text accompanying unambiguous images of the products.
Interestingly, my Spanish professor, from San Jose, Costa Rica, in a moment of candor, encouraged us to learn Portuguese and visit Brazil: “A more interesting culture; not so much religious baggage.”
#23 Ali.
Seinfeld in Saudi Arabia, who would have thought?
I sometimes speak Arabic to cab drivers here, a lot of older guys are Moroccan or their parents spoke Arabic at home. They think it’s hilarious since I don’t look at all Moroccan. But I’ve tried to speak Arabic to Arabs here & we barely understand each other. I automatically mix French & Berber words into my Arabic, sometimes even Spanish, just like we did at home. The Bedouin are impossible to understand.
For a Moroccan, Tunisians speak with a sing-song & they use words that are very dirty in Moroccan Arabic. When I went to Tunisia I was shocked, people said the most vulgar (to me, not to them) things. I couldn’t keep a straight face talking to them.
#24 Paul S.
I’m sorry I didn’t keep up with Spanish too. I still understand a little but I can’t speak anymore. I used to go to Spain very often & after a few days, it started to come back, sort of. The older people in my mother’s family spoke Ladino much of the time, my grandmother spoke only Ladino. Sadly, it died out in one generation, everyone went to French schools in my mother’s generation. Just like Yiddish disappeared.
OK guys, I have to get going. I’ll check in later tonight.
I’m sure Mr Totten will be relieved. I don’t think he meant for his blog to be taken over by our chatting.
They showed those type of shows on satellite television, so if you’re ever in Morocco, you could probably watch them. Palestinians and Americans swear a lot, so I never had a problem with vulgarity.
Terry,
I know several persons whose families are from Morocco, but actually family roots are from Alsace or Northern France – they moved to Morocco mid-XIX century. But Yiddish in Morocco?!
“They showed those type of shows on satellite television”
We used to hear in America that the most popular tv show in Iran was “Baywatch.” I always wondered how they kept those satellite dishes hidden from view.
Ali, I’d be surprised if there is a culture anywhere that doesn’t have a rich supply of curse words.
#28 rabbit256.
My father wasn’t Moroccan, he was Polish/Russian – he was a refugee, he got out of Poland in 1938, went to France, then to Morocco because you could go without papers.
There were quite a few refugees from Eastern Europe in Morocco during the war.
And, of course, he spoke Yiddish, Russian, learned French & English later. And, he could swear in Arabic like no one else I knew, ha ha!
I’m not sure if satellite dishes were/are legal or not in Saudi Arabia, but in my old concrete (most houses are made out of concrete there) house the “roof” was actually a second floor with no ceiling. I used to play soccer with my friends and brothers on top and we had the occasional barbecue.
And thats where we kept our satellite dishes.
#31 Terry
“..he could swear in Arabic like no one else I knew, ha ha!”
Ha, one more proof Russian culture is #1 in the world when it comes to swearing
Terry: Also, rumour has it that you’re shlepping around with Ted Belman.
I spent half an afternoon with him and a crazy Arab who says he’s ready to die in a nuclear holocaust.
I’m shlepping around with all sorts of people here, from the far-left to the far-right and everywhere in between. My head officially hurts now. This place–especially Jerusalem–is Megacomplicated.
Terry: Anyone who reads Ibn Khaldun when discussing contemporary Middle-East issues must be worth reading.
Khaldun makes an appearance in my book, as well. He was extremely intelligent, and I need to read more.
#35/36 Michael Totten.
I read a post on Israpundit, Ted Belman’s blog which described the conversation.
Personally, I’m not ready to die in a nuclear holocaust, I guess that makes me saner than your Palestinian friend.
I bet your head is ready to explode, mega-complicated is an understatement. It’s less complicated for me, perhaps, because I know what side I’m on, I make no pretense of fairness or objectivity. I only understand winning, unlike our leftist loonies who find virtue in defeat.
I only have one problem with Ibn Khaldun, he was not a supporter of the Mutazilite school of philosophy which was rationalist & supported the orthodox & irrationalist philosophy the name of which I cannot remember. In Jewish terms, he did not support Maimonides but Nachmanides. Surprising for an otherwise very intelligent & objective thinker. His originality & insight is astounding considering the times.
If I’m not mistaken, Christianity also became ”irrationalist” at the same time.
The world today is also becoming irrationalist.
An interesting post from Hot Air.
”Bushehr: And So It Begins, part II” by J. E. Dyer
http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2010/08/15/bushehr-and-so-it-begins–pat-ii/
It should be titled, ”Obama is an Irresponsible Moron.”
I made a typo in the link – sorry ….
http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2010/08/15/bushehr-and-so-it-begins-part-ii/
Hanbali?
As for that “crazy Arab”, I’m not so sure why you consider him so.
He sounds perfectly rational to me. Wanting to get nuked just as long as the Jewish State is destroyed is merely the logical extension of suicide bombing, or voting for Hamas, or chanting about “Palestine from the River to the Sea.”
Remember: the goal is to make Israel extinct.
Which is why whenever anyone talks about how “complicated” the situation is, I can only shake my head.
It’s really not complicated at all. Not at all.
My paternal great-grandparents came to America from Poland, Romania, Russia, and Germany between the 1890′s and late 1930′s – They all spoke multiple languages, usually at the same time and at a great rate of speed (at least to my very young ears). After 1938 no more family members arrived on US shores, because none were left alive or not already in the camps.
My paternal grandparents were also multilingual (for obvious reasons). My dad’s father put himself through school by playing jazz piano in the NY city speakeasy’s of the ’30′s.
My father, raised in Hell’s Kitchen, fluently spoke at least eight languages that I know of, and probably was conversant in several others. I remember him having multilingual conversational games with friends who were translators at VOA in the late 60′s – early 70′s where every single word was from a different language.
I, alas and to my fathers great dismay, still struggle with the basics of English (with a Maryland/Texas accent) and dropped out of Hebrew school very early. I’m certain my Bar Mitzvah was highly amusing to everybody except myself and my parents as I phonetically mangled some portion of the Torah beyond any hope of translation. It seems that the more Hebrew and Yiddish I absorbed as a youngster the worse my youthful public school English lessons became.
The on-line gaming communities that I run with these days are heavily international, (at times a 50/50 mix between Americans and Europeans), and I often find myself in the (very odd to me) position of being asked to translate heavily accented English from places like Poland and South Carolina both to the respective speakers and for everybody else in the channel. “He’s not asking you to make a lot of random noise, he wants you to bring up the rocket launcher.” “He’s not making random cat noises, he means all of us.”
I’m not sure how I’m able to cut through the various accents of English like that, but still struggle with my own English. I’m just happy that I can get a guy from Nashville, a guy from Warsaw, a guy from South Carolina, and a guy from south of London to all work together as a team, even though they are thousands of miles apart and might hate each other in the meat world or on the gaming forums.
Maybe I should have been an international flight air traffic controller?
LOST
IN
TRANSLATION,
R
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10983494
Maybe they need a welcome center at ground zero too….
Interesting discussion guys. I wonder why more women don’t visit. They have as much at stake here…..
Perhaps we should spread the word at some of the other blogs we inhabit?
“Michael Totten needs women.”
GET
TO
IT,
R
Lee Smith’s fancy theory is at odds with what is going on on the ground. If things look so dire, why did the real estate market in Beirut double since 2008? Clearly, locals and outside investors don’t feel as grim. I wonder if it is possible for any Westerner to really ‘get’ Lebanon. There is always a desire to come up with a grand theory, or a grand scenario of upcoming events. And it is always flawed due to some linear thinking. None of this sticks for long in Lebanon because the country is not just a mosaic, it’s a moving mosaic. Good luck figuring out what it will look like in a year. Maybe that’s why you don’t have a lot of Lebanese writing books or articles with near or mid-term forecasts, they know it is pointless.
Re Women on this site
Perhaps MJT should address the condition of women in the ME, which is an absolute disgrace, as bad as apartheid or worse. Nothing much will improve until that improves imho.
Well in Washington, it appears some are hiding under Hillary’s skirt: http://www.informationdissemination.net/2010/08/perfect-timing-for-policy-change.html
Yes, women here failed to answer the call. Maybe we should dance for them…..
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/hamas_nod_for_gz_mosque_cSohH9eha8sNZMTDz0VVPI?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=
Next AQ?
Odds Israel hits Iranian nuclear reactor before fueling date of August 21?
http://simplyjews.blogspot.com/2010/08/reza-baruni-offed-by-israeli.html
Re Women on this site
–what do you call me, chopped liver?
#40 Barry Meislin.
While the ”situation” is as you say, not complicated, people’s opinions are very complicated. Take into consideration the diversity of Israel’s population, religious groups, leftists, centrists, right-wing, socio-economic status, Jews, Russians, Arabs, Druze, Haredim of various sorts, ethnic origin, recent immigrant, old-timers, members of political parties, urban dwellers, small towns, kibbutzim, and I’m sure you know the saying, ”two Jews, ten opinions.” Talking about what to do about ”the situation” would bust anyone’s head.
“Turkey Accused of Using Chemical Weapons against PKK”
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,711536,00.html
Isn’t that one of the reasons we went after Saddam (“he used WMDs against his own people”)?
Turkey is spiralling down, fast.
#44 Joe.
Don’t be so simplistic. There can be many reasons for real estate booms. I can’t comment on the Lebanese phenomenon, I don’t have specific information.
But, real estate inflation can be caused by artificially low interest rates, an increase in the money supply, deterioration in the value of money, and very often in Arab countries, the lack of other investment opportunities combined with the cultural preference for ”bricks & mortar” – so, it’s not necessarily driven by demand or optimism. And, as fast as it goes up, it can go down, if conditions change.
A real estate bubble, as any other bubble, is not the sign of a healthy economy.
“When pronunciation evolves faster than spelling a language creates challenges.”
English spelling is based on the origins of the words, more than on the sounds. This is a good thing for serious writers, but not for those learning the language.
There have also been changes in pronunciation. For example the “ea” in “meat” or “speak” was formerly a sound between “ee” and long “a” as in “take”. Nowadays these words are in most dialects pronounced with an “ee” sound.
It is impossible really to have a phonetic spelling for English, because the dialects vary so much. For example, the first vowel in “butter” may be pronounced as in “hut” or as in “look”.
Yaeli, we need more!
Don,
And then there are always words that no doubt mystify non-English speakers…like the “ough” sounds, ie thought (thot), through (throo), enough (enuff), though (tho), tough, well, you get the picture.
Terry, Barry,
I didn’t think that Arab Belman interviewed was crazy either.
Ignorant, ill-informed, racist likely.
But since when did rationality ever intrude on the concept of reality amongst many Arabs. Conspiracy theory, jihad, the aspect that becoming a martyr by killing Jews brings rewards in the afterlife (I have to pause and laugh and shake my head at that one), and an education system that is hard to differentiate from fascist propaganda are the norm.
#55 yesjb.
Partially, it’s exaggerated rhetoric, the Arab guy was shooting off his mouth rather than expressing his real desire. Partially, Arabs often ignore the consequences of their opinions. And, partially, Arabs can be very self-destructive to get revenge for real or imagined wrongs. There is a degree of irrationality in Arab thinking, it seems crazy to a Westerner but I saw this kind of thing very often. There is a lot of rage & anger in Arab society, the rage & anger exists before it has a specific focus. I think I said before, Arab culture does not have a firm grip on reality anyway. And then, as you say, the beliefs in conspiracy theories, that typical Middle-Eastern paranoia, the various religious beliefs, the propaganda, and something Westerners don’t usually understand, a kind of anger at injustice, even imagined.
Terry,
Where have I seen that sort of behaviour before?
Oh yes… in children and young adolescents. Its as if Arab society is in an arrested childhood and doesn’t want to grow up…full of petulance, paranoia, arrogant know-it-all attitude, anger, hatred and a feeling of invulnerability.
It’s ripe ground for a doctoral thesis (albeit non-PC) :-0
@Terry ,Eilat
“I only have one problem with Ibn Khaldun, he was not a supporter of the Mutazilite school of philosophy which was rationalist & supported the orthodox & irrationalist philosophy the name of which I cannot remember. In Jewish terms, he did not support Maimonides but Nachmanides. Surprising for an otherwise very intelligent & objective thinker. His originality & insight is astounding considering the times.
If I’m not mistaken, Christianity also became ”irrationalist” at the same time.
The world today is also becoming irrationalist.”
It is funny you mention the Mutazilite because,only yesterday did I read about the antagonistic Mutazilite/Ash’ari inner fighting
Islamic history is really complicated….
Whereas I always favorably considered omeyads over Abassids,I learnt later that Abassad were not that bad and promoted for instance scientific research0
Too bad for us and the muslims that Al Gasali closed down the gates of ishtihad
Terry, it’s interesting how Westernized you are. I feel much more alive in Hebrew than in English, though I can intellectualize better in English. I would suggest that our Hebraic, Jewish culture is very rich, and that your aversion to most of the Arab mind-set should not totally ‘Anglicize’ you.
I fully agree with your comment about Michael’s statement, though. As a visitor and a critic, he must necessarily attempt to assign rights and wrongs. I want Israel to survive. There is no America for me to return to, only an Israel to return to.
#57 yesjb.
I agree, to a certain extent, it’s not what we consider mature, adult reasoning.
I don’t think Europe was any different during the Middle-Ages, and a fact to consider is that we are talking about very young populations, although that’s changing today because of declining birthrates.
Larry: As a visitor and a critic, he must necessarily attempt to assign rights and wrongs.
I’m going to do a lot less of that in my work from this trip than I sometimes do. Too many journalists come to Israel and assign rights and wrongs, yet this place is fraught with serious moral and political ambiguity. (I am not, when I say this, referring to Hamas.)
In the last couple of weeks I’ve spent a lot of time outside my comfort zone and interviewed people from every political position imaginable, and I don’t particularly feel like arguing with them (not too much, anyway) in print. I want everyone I’ve interviewed to feel like I treated them honorably and fairly even if I think they’re wrong. Almost everyone I’ve spoken to is right and wrong about something. I’m sure that’s true of me, too.
Readers can sort out the rights and wrongs for themselves without me deciding in advance for them. I’m not in a moralistic or judgemental mood right now–except when it comes to tyrants and terrorists.
Some rights and wrongs speak for themselves, anyway. I don’t need to tell you or anyone else what to think about the Palestinian I interviewed a few days ago who admires Hezbollah and is ready to die in a nuclear holocaust.
Terry;
Is your assessment valid across all economic/religious/tribal lines? I’m wondering how this ‘raging-at-the-machine’ attitude distributes itself.
#58 Trumpeldor.
Thank you for reminding me, the other school of philosophy was Ash’ari, I’d forgotten. The Mutazilites were an interesting development in Islamic philosophy, branded heretical.
The end of Ijtihad was the downfall of Islam, the closing of the Islamic mind.
It’s comparable to what happened in Judaism with the Shulchan Aruch. At least, that’s my opinion.
In any case, you’ve motivated me to do a little reading, to refresh my memory a bit.
#59 Larry in the Silicon.
I’m not as Western as you may imagine. Obviously, when I write in English, I’m Western. When I speak French, I’m not exactly the same person. And, when I speak Arabic, I’m not particularly Western at all. It’s like having three personalities.
Much in my way of living is not Western – food, my house, much of the music I listen to, my taste in art & architecture, definitely Middle-Eastern. I don’t have an aversion to the Arabic mind-set – I am describing, not necessarily judging. There is much that I like in Arabic culture, it is not entirely negative by any means.
I long ago decided that the only thing I could really be, as an identity, was a Jew.
I’m not exactly Moroccan, I’m not Russian or Polish even if that was my father’s background, I’m not American, I’m not French – the only thing I can be is a Jew (which possibly is not the same as being Israeli either).
And, like you, I only want us to survive.
#62 The Tao.
I can only offer an opinion, unscientific & based on anecdotal information.
It’s a common personality type, tends to run in families, & is not at all confined to any specific socio-economic group, is more common among certain types of religious people, & and, counter-intuitively, is more extreme among somewhat Westernized upper-middle class people. That’s the best answer I can come up with.
#61 Michael Totten.
Just out of curiousity, what is your comfort zone?
“I don’t need to tell you or anyone else what to think about the Palestinian I interviewed a few days ago who admires Hezbollah and is ready to die in a nuclear holocaust”
It’s probably not as much fun as imagined.
Terry,
In Western societies, the political center (by American standards, which is right-wing in Europe) is my comfort zone.
Terry, I was friends years ago with a Jew who had a similar ‘ethnic’ background as your own. His father was a Russian Jew and his Mother a Moroccan Jew. He was raised in Toronto and we became friends during our Junior year abroad at the Hebrew U. Can’t seem to track him down with a Google! search or via FB.
“Perhaps MJT should address the condition of women in the ME”
See: “The Stoning of Soraya M.”, March 11, 2010:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/03/the-stoning-of-soraya-m.php
“not just a mosaic, it’s a moving mosaic.”
Like weather (or stock?) prediction; which force(s) will prevail, and for how long?
Language is another moving target, evolving under the shifting influences of common usage; any generation’s slang words and phrases, for example. As a traditionalist at heart, I wish rules were more than suggestions to some, but getting annoyed at the weather is wasted energy.
Language.
Through the manipulation of language we come to accept the excluded middle; that a proposition can be true and false.
Through political rhetoric we are warned about some dangerous dichotomy. Liberal v Republican, Islamist v Secularist, taxes v greed. Of course there is always a third force at work in every interaction. Religious or not, Liberal or not there is always the hierarchy of needs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg
Religion was the proto psychology founded on the ability to sense awareness in others. It places behavior and understanding into a great conceptual framework which aquires a life of its own using myth and symbols as tools in a cultural evolution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme.
It wasn’t a big step for self-aware humans to project mind onto the absolute, given sufficient linguistic abilities.
Today, hope, change, win, liberty, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, disproportionate force, high crimes, moral, faith, treason, racist, equality, terrorist, republic, democracy, certainty, transparent, fair, balanced and regulation are all words and concepts under siege. Traditional memes seem to be breaking down. We see a proportional decline in global cooperation.
Patriotism, free markets, radical, smaller government, individual rights, faith, God, country, morality, overwhelming force, merit, national security, socialism, fiscal conservatism are all things we have heard before from the Right as the country ran into recessional mud, quagmires, blow back and domestic disontent. From this mess the words “hope” and “change” sprung.
#73 Maxtrue.
Your first item about religion being ”the ability to sense awareness in others” is not accurate. Ancient religions were an attempt to manipulate the environment through various forms of magic, also to explain what they could not understand.
They developed rites & rituals as a method of control, basically superstition.
Later, in the early civilizations, religion added the element of social control, became political, it was also a method for a priestly caste to earn a living & gain a social status. A sense of what we call ”morality” only very gradually arose, the awareness being not for others but rather self-awareness. In order for people to live in social groups, ever more complex, there is a requirement for rules of behavior of one kind or another. These became codified as ”Law” – very often sacred because of tradition, law becomes somehow ”holy” & highly resistent to change.
#73 Maxtrue,
On language, the short answer is George Orwell.
Worth reading: ”Bushehr: And So It Begins, Part III” by J.E. Dyer at Hot Air.
http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2010/08/16/bushehr-and-so-it-begins-part-iii/
Terry, I was speaking about the religions of today, the ones that are theistic, particularly monotheistic. The idea of a supreme awareness and the characterization of this force in terms like infinite and absolute come from the evolution of language and conceptual thought. I am not the first to place the ability to imagine consciousness in others as the cornerstone of extrapolating the Supreme Intelligence. No Turing test required. I repeat, our ability to project our cognitive state of consciousness on inanimate objects is a conceptual skill that would not be possible without language. Modern religion is more linguistically rooted that formed from symbolic logic or primitive myth.
As far as Orwell, you are half right. What will eventual mature as an extension of evolutionary study, a memetic process of a sort, posits structures both genetic and cultural that resist the political expediency of Newspeak. What still drive civilization is the hierarchy of needs and the political center does not take political co-opting its language lightly. We can still see through the manipulation of words like “victory”, “disproportionate force”, “Nazi”, “liberation”, etc. We’ve all read Orwell. The dialectics at work are more complex than Big Brother.
The internet is going to make Winston’s job very difficult…..
as far as Bushehr, apparently the time has run out for pre-emption. Nuclear energy has a nasty effect when spread. But what the hell, doesn’t everyone understand we’re on the honor system now with Russians and Iranians…..lol
excuse me, its really not that funny.
than formed…..
http://www.slate.com/id/2261928
Interesting bio related to the history of political thought on the Left. And boy could he use words…..
So if Israel bombs Busher and some radiation escapes, whats the big deal? Iran will have to evacuate the town of Busher, just like the Russians did around Chernobyl. Perhaps Russian experience with Chernobyl is part of the Iranian aid package
Well, Terry I must amend that….the internet is a million Winstons, but the diversity of this Newspeak resists singularity.
Note the use of the Big Brother narrative by Wikileaks to defend their actions.
I did mention months back that Israel would be better served with some lines in the sand. The consensus here argued that the likely crossing of of these lines without retaliation would only make Israel look weak. I agree with Terry however, that the time for lines was some decades back and the subsequent erosion of the use of disproportionate force against against offenders has made lines difficult to make for now.
While Big Brother and evolutionary narratives are relatively old, the clash of ideologies (civilizations) has been the new thorn to the West. Orwell didn’t really anticipate that. Iran will have a plutonium producing reactor on August 21st. I don’t like the op-ed game that’s being played now, which screams that Bushehr is some supreme test for Israeli resolve.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hUhYyfIXOytJg7SJIDQt8BLVlcEA
One should see the obvious. The real test has only been made greater. Allowing this reactor to go on line only increases the necessity of taking out those that control its use. By sneaking by the old red lines, new ones have been marked. Once a capability exists, prevention of said capability requires removing those in control.
In Lebanon, ideologically produced aggression has created new targets as well. Some demanded a tougher response from Israel while Western comics mocked Israel’s pruning a tree. In the hierarchy of needs, self-actualization and peaceful co-existence rests on the foundation of security.
So I think that we can clearly see three narratives at work. The first is the evolutionary one, the hierarchy of needs, ecology, adpatation and altruistic cooperation. We obviously see the Big Brother dialectic. The third of course, is the clash of ideologies mentioned above in Iran and Lebanon as examples. These narratives are all interconnected and have their unique languages.
Part of the manipulation of language is accomplished by leadership, media and intellectuals shifting narratives without shifting meaning. One of the reasons Ground Zero is a flash point is because all three narratives are strongly at work with political leadership and Islam trying to manipulate opinion.
As I said before, the nurturing of the excluded middle has diminished the force of fact. Today pundits would have agree that something can be true and false.
Just thinking……
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LH10Ak03.html
We see some interesting word games here. If everyone is so panicked by the possibility of an air strike releasing nuclear material, what about the dangers of the intentional release of these materials? The very language of the reported anxiety of pre-emption seems to ignore the anxiety of intent. Shouldn’t the worries about fallout (from a non-nuclear event) emphasis the dangerous of said materials in the hands of the current Iranian regime? Omission is a classic tool…..of manipulating context and words.
emphasize the danger of said materials in the hands of the current Iranian regime?….
would have us agree
rest on the foundation…
gee…wrote that too fast.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11005283
Now this makes sense…..
What narrative is this one?
In other words, Israel trying to prevent itself from being incinerated is the aggressor and the world’s number 1 threat to peace.
But we saw this in the 30s. The Jews, warning against Hitlerian aggression, were the instigators of WWII.
Nothing changes all that much when it comes to semantics.
And evil.
Barry, Bill Whittle takes on that exact theme in his latest Afterburner:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg_iDPRud_c
A simple minded layman’s logic: language exists to improve communication; grunts and gestures weren’t enough. Especially today and maybe always, language seems less for elucidation than either obfuscation or intimidation, particularly the further the speaker is from a personal relationship with the audience. In other words, try it with your spouse or your customers at your peril.
“Omission is a classic tool”
The shakier or more self-serving the platform, the quicker the curtain is drawn to hide true intentions.
Related: the crucial exclusion is encouragement of critical thought.
Before science it made sense to seek protection from an indifferent Nature’s unpredictable consequences; if an offering didn’t work, maybe a chant or another type of prayer would.
Paul, I suggest Wittgenstein. The conceptual complexity of what you did in your post above is miles beyond the beginning of language we were talking about regarding religion and projection. What was Freud’s reasoning here?
Obama always wants it both ways. Don’t underestimate the nurturing of the excluded middle and I’m not talking Third Party or Indies.
http://www.thememriblog.org/blog_personal/en/29463.htm
Saudis want blood
http://www.thememriblog.org/blog_personal/en/29462.htm
Now here is a master of bullshit.
Barry, most Jews in the US are certainly not screaming for war with Iran. It is a bit different than 1930, but I did post a 1930 event list some time back.
You have a wonderfully quizzical, critical mind, Max, but I think you sometimes overthink life. Humans have made it too damned complicated already. As Henry Thoreau said, “Simplify.”
Power.
Who gets to move the most molecules?
How?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11004945
Wow, some article. Palestinians left-wing? Mexicans here should feel lucky. Lebanon doesn’t want to lose a demographic game with Palestinians. Nope, nobody really wants them.
Maybe Michael can shed some light.
Note all the money pouring in from Muslim countries to help Pakistan. not
Paul, I think therefore I am. Without language there would be little awareness. Look how far hope and change ran. Orwell warned of Newspeak. You wondered about the causes of de-evolution of culture. I am suggesting language plays a role here.
Faith? I have faith that you are conscious Paul. Morality? We either cooperate or we end up like the dinosaur. I did not invoke religion.
Is it sunny outside right now? It is either sunny or it is not. Well, that might be too absolutist for a Liberal. We have been screwing with language for some time now. Even Bill was confused between is and isn’t.
“Bill was confused between is and isn’t.”
See: “obfuscation.”
“Without language there would be little awareness.”
Nah; but communicating about it, and collaborative creation that led to us being able to do technically impressive stuff like this certainly would suffer; our lives would be far less rich without it. However, feeling hunger, pain, anger or sadness, a lust for power or the consequences of its absence requires no linguistic intervention.
“We either cooperate or we end up like the dinosaur.”
Amen there. Actually, I sometimes imagine little one-celled wigglies, waiting patiently to reclaim their spot atop the food chain. I guess they would be the food chain at that point.
Let me be perfectly clear…..
Forgive the aside back to Sir Paul…
Paul, prairie dogs communicate, elephants appear to feel sadness, monkeys are vengeful and can even communicate how to use a tool to their kin. Dolphins who are know to rape other dolphins can carry on more than fifty “communications” at once. Bees can dance. The behavioral memes started long before modern man appeared with its language.
So are you saying that the self awareness we experience as humans is not a product of our unique conceptual thinking? Perhaps you imagine little distance between monkeys and man, or even dolphins and man.
We’re not talking about simply being mute when we say “life with no language”. It is also not like being in France without understanding French. We would “know” the “body” without mental concepts of it? We spent thousands of years just naming things…lol. In the beginning there was the word.
The structure of Helen Keller’s mimd allowed formation of concepts despite her being a deaf mute. Leaving aside the possibility of a quantum aspect of consciousness, the human ability to communicate, educate, investigate using reason, distinguishes us from other life forms though there is a continuum in evolution. We dominate on the back of language and its neural complexity, along with the neural development of the hands. This required a large brain. And one sufficiently cooled standing up in the sun on a hot day. Our earliest humanoid ancestors had smaller brains. There no exogenetic structures found everywhere in modern civilization such as language, technology, arete, economies etc..
That we could erase the language centers of our brains and still have a whole person with a coherent identity and memories seems incredible. Then again people have language and still struggle to achieve these things. When I say language I am specifically talking about the genetic structures that endows the mind to think in words, concepts and reasonably so.
The selection pressure for linguistic capacity must have been strongly wedded to tool use and communal survival, not to mention procreation. Imagine the smoothest talker getting the sweetest mate. The early stages of man must be fascinating.
Some suggest language the displacing factor of Neanderthal. Music seems both the earliest art and technology beyond basic tools. The cave paintings reflect an already high state of perception and the natural propensity to engage in “recording” and “expressing” in ways other mammals do not. Without developed language, our ancestors still had a conceptual field, what some call episteme.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episteme
While wired like moderns however, the chemistry was likely quite different.
The key ingredient of humanity not found in a Labrador or chimp, is a creative, expressive and “rational” language, working at a qualitative level higher than all known creatures. This rests much on the conceptual field of our minds, the sense of self this creates and our ability to form languages of words, art and math, of measurements and rules in a creative and adaptive way.
It goes without saying that imagining life without concepts is impossible, as the necessary suspension of thought requires either thought, unconsciousness or death.
I have known some drugs however….
later…
Speaking of Obama – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech-act
Concerning what we talk about and how we talk about it, I’m particularly impressed with Philip K. Dick’s definition of reality:
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”
“We dominate on the back of language and its neural complexity, along with the neural development of the hands.”
Here we agree, Max.
“the human ability to communicate, educate, investigate using reason, distinguishes us from other life forms”
Many species do all three. Using something humans came to call reason? I don’t know; I wish we could arrange an interspecies roundtable and communicate our perspectives. Open-minded humans might learn a lot.
From the curmudgeon’s corner; language, and then communication:
Especially as life has gotten easier for humans over millenia, communicating effectively has become less important, while the use of language has increased. Words too often have become a tool used to evade, deceive or intimidate. Words, but more specifically their meaning has been my life. Sadly though, their use by modern man far too often produces the world’s cheapest commodity: uninformed opinion.
As for those thought suspending drugs? Full disclosure would be truly embarassing in retrospect.
Great definition, gus.
Here’s one for you, Paul. When I was in college (the first time), I finally got to see “Pink Floyd: The Wall” in the campus bar. I wasn’t really interested, until a friend pointed out I had nothing to lose.
Afterwards I commented that I understood why it was so popular to get stoned before watching it. His reply will stick with me forever:
“Isn’t it interesting, how many people get stoned, in order to avoid asking the very questions for which this movie demands answers?”
#96 Gus3.
I like that definition. Very good.
I second that, Gus, well now maybe it’s third or fourth. That is a terrific quote and will join my favorites along with “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar” (Freud) and “I like dealing with rightists, they tell you what they really think unlike the leftists who say one thing and mean another” (Mao!!!)
“Though animals can be taught to understand human commands, they are not capable of repeating those commands. Without the ability to reason, animals are also unable to learn the concepts of complex philosophical ideas such as the past and future, which are core fundamentals of complex language. Without this ability, animals are not able to pass these teachings on towards other animals of the same species. Thus, even though we can teach animals to understand aspects of human language, they are unable to develop that language around a culture suitable for them. Humans on the other hand, have been proven to learn languages not native to them, and use those languages as a native speaker would, and pass those along to other members of their native culture.
While proponents of animal communication systems have debated levels of semantics, these systems have not been found to have anything approaching human language syntax.[28]” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language
Humans are such, that if you take away language (and its central feature reason), a
“person” ceases to exist.
Well, moving right along, is this person serious? http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41204.html
priceless. If she wins re-election we have only ourselves to blame.
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=21980
When Muslims make more sense than the Speaker of our House.
It is interesting to note that people like Bloomberg and Bienart make their appeals according to the logic of “freedom of religion” and “equality”, where as the opposition makes their appeals in terms of a political struggle in the context of the clash of civilizations. We see here a fight between narratives, yes? It is really quite remarkable. Similar words, different meanings.
Yes, Gary, that is often true…
Clinton improved on Freud…..
“a cigar is what we do with it”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/7950200/Role-reversal-Saudi-comedy-provokes-anger-among-male-population.html
As Ringo said, you know it don’t come easy……
Max, that’s an excellent show. I remember it. They usually stay on the safe side of issues though. For example, they once made an episode about extremist teachers who taught extremist materials. They portrayed them in a very negative light, but they also made it look like the government is seriously campaigning to prevent that extremism.
Ali,
At least some people understand satire.
I have an uncomfortable feeling, though, that the programme would never have been allowed in North America. Too politically incorrect.
yesjb, a real work out over at Defense Tech. Can you believe the IDS? I mean, the balls for people who are so uninformed blathering about some F-35s. I suggested DT clean up their act and present more facts when posting articles.
Ali, I wonder whether language is responsible for our sense of humor.
The mosque issue next to the 9/11 site is about sensitivity more than it is about anything else. But there are always some who are willing to take adavantage of a situation and turn it into a political issue especially in an election year. Obama opened himself up to this and it has snowballed from that point on…it could have been left to the local jurisdiction to make the call on this which they made…but oh well another mistep by the white house and now here comes that spinning regarding what amounts to a moot issue since the mosque has already been approved locally!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/17/AR2010081704399.html?wpisrc%3Dnl_opinions%26sid%3DST2http://www.washingthttp://www.washingtonpost.com:80/ac2/wp-dyn?node=admin/registration/register&sub=AR
Now this is a great example of encouraging irrational thinking. What nonsense parading as reason. We should build the mosque because we don’t want to see it built. And maybe those who attacked us will get angrier. Gees. Spencer beat me to this news, but I beat him with the Pelosi comments. Together they do make Liberals look silly.
Mason, what locals think is far from over.
http://arabnews.com/middleeast/article104957.ece
Again, Arabs are making Obama look silly. It may turn out that Spencer is right; that Muslims rejected the Mosque for reasons that seem beyond the grasp of Pelosi, Bloomberg and Obama to understand.
It is remarkable.
“Islam has nothing to do with the events that happened on 9/11,” Bin-Makhlouf added. “Unfortunately, the media has contributed in tying terrorism to Islam. When a non-Muslim commits an act of terror, no-one referrers to his religion.”
Unfortunately, some disturbed thinking permeates the Muslim side. No, Islam has no role in the proliferation of terror and abuse. And where is the Muslim public debate about building churches and synagogues in Muslim cities? Why they might ask when we have driven most of the Christians and Jews out of our lands? Good point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neurons
-the point of interaction tying genetic structures in our heads with the perception of human behavior and its intentions.
Language here mediates the persistence and integration of this network.
A bit too cerebral, but we are in a struggle of words, intentions and conflicting human behavior.
The effort here, though most would say far too academic, is to connect culture and its narratives with our genetic structures shaped over thousands of years by survival and reproduction.
After all “free will” is just a linguistic term, the reality of which some would dispute: http://www.wired.com/thisdayintech/2010/08/0818bf-skinner-in-box
One more for Paul
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/12/080512fa_fact_talbot?currentPage=all
I have been called a parrot…..
“I have been called a parrot”
Take it as a compliment, Max; those giant South American parrots are pretty bright. I’ve read ravens are pretty sharp too. I’ll leave any appropriate E.A.Poe quotes to you. Not being a pet person, I’ve never thought this much about other species.
It is a pleasant diversion though from the unrelenting grimness we usually thrash over. The Left’s muddling of the distinction between aggressive intent and vigilent defense, with history supplying abundant evidence of the contrast, only makes sense when seen through the prism of belief.
Yes Paul and I was surpised that in Michael’s new thread a reader brings up conflicting narratives. I found speech acts interesting.
In any case, I don’t think anyone minds the diversion.
Here is the latest on Obama’s picking a winning side: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41238.html
Like I called it months ago. Language goes only so far….
surprised…lol. Guess my linguistic genes are a bit screwed up.
Quotes from Eric Hoffer:
“The capacity for getting along with our neighbor depends to a large extent on the capacity for getting along with ourselves. The self-respecting individual will try to be as tolerant of his neighbor’s shortcomings as he is of his own.”
Two for Max:
“Language was invented to ask questions. Answers may be given by grunts and gestures, but questions must be spoken. Social stagnation results not from a lack of answers but from the absence of the impulse to ask questions.”
“The devil personifies not the nature that is around us but the nature that is within us- the infinitely ferocious and cunning prehuman creature that is still within us, sealed in the subconscious cellars of the psyche.”
Paul,
Perhaps this is a superficial analysis, but…
In the study of the Torah and the Talmud, the student is thought to ask about everything written. To interpret the words in the context of his life and times; not to accept without understanding.
And for that one must ask questions.
In Islam, the greatest achievement is to memorize the Koran.
Perhaps Ali can crap on my head for the oversimplification, but it was a thought that occurred to me as I was reading your post.
yesjb,
One more from Mr. Hoffer, the self-educated longshoreman:
“The central task of education is to implant a will and facility for learning; it should produce not learned but learning people.”
I’ve also wondered how much questioning Islam encourages.