A few days ago, I interviewed the brilliant Israeli writer Benjamin Kerstein — who also happens to be my friend — at a café in central Tel Aviv. We talked about, among other things, what outsiders often don’t understand about Israel. The list of things is a long one. We also discussed, as people in Israel so often do, the danger posed by Iran’s Islamic Republic regime.
“Iran used to be secular, open, and friendly to Israel,” Kerstein said. “It once was pro-Western. Jews were at least nominally tolerated. It was seen as a place where there was a certain degree of cultural development. Persian culture used to be recognizable to us like Lebanese culture is. The Iran that is currently ruled by the theocracy is alien and threatening to us. We see it as a cold and hateful place. It’s a place that hates us.”
I know what he means about a culture being “recognizable.” Lebanese culture is indeed recognizable from an American and even an Israeli perspective. Beirut has more in common with Tel Aviv than with any Arabic city in the world. That recognition, so to speak, is sometimes reciprocated. Some of my Beiruti friends are fascinated by Tel Aviv and how it is, in many ways, a Hebrew-speaking sister city of theirs.
Iran’s Khomeinist government — and, by extension, its Hezbollah proxy in Lebanon — really does, by comparison, seem as though it’s from another planet. Everyone I know who has been to Iran lately, however, says the country is totally different at street level — where real life is lived and culture is shaped. I believe them, and I believed them before millions of Iranians screamed “death to the dictator” from the rooftops last year.
Take a look at the music video by Blurred Vision, an Iranian exile band based in Toronto. The song is a remake of “Another Brick in the Wall” by Pink Floyd, updated and changed ever so slightly to apply to Iran in 2010 rather than to Britain in the 1970s. A culture that produces this is perfectly recognizable. And it’s hard to imagine anything like it emerging from any other country in the region aside from Lebanon.
It’s an electrifying piece of music video art, especially the scene at the end where a Persian woman steps into the light and removes her state-mandated head covering. And the scenes where Iranians battle it out in the street with state-security thugs weren’t shot on a film set in Canada. They’re real and were shot in Tehran.
Obama lite ( Jimmy Carter) had a big role in the direction of Iran when the Shah was deposed. I don’t think the Shah was all goodness and light, but he did attempt to bring Iran into the 20th Century. Jimmy Carter with his lack of support and twisted “Christian” beliefs turned that around with his Foreign Policy. I believe that as a group the Iranians are good, honest and reasonable people and unlike most Afghans want to take part in a more open and modern lifestyle. I don’t think this means opening a bar on every corner, or strop joints on the fringe of every city, but an honest and open relationship with with the Western Nations.
Fantastic video. Barbarians motivated by 6th century mysticism brutalize a helpless popluation — and our allegedly liberal President’s reaction is to propose negotiations with them.
Video is making the rounds on the internet. Thanks Michael.
I don’t see how any good comes from leaving Iranian leadership alone: http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE67609320100807
With the lawyer for the woman sentenced to stoning seeking safety in Turkey and pressure on Turkey to accept technology aimed at missile defense against Iran, Erdogan is on the spot as Turkish judge throws out warrants on 102 military officers.
Meanwhile, Arab polls show favorable attitude about the Iranian bomb. Never underestimate the idiocy of the masses. In Iran however, they show far more sense than their Arabic cousins……
How much influence do exiles have on the tyranny back home?
Think of all the Russians who fled after the Marxist takeover. I don’t think Stravinsky or Rachmaninoff had much influence on the state censorship of music under Stalin, for instance.
I fear the diasporas of Iran, Zimbabwe, Burma, and other places will campaign politely but will be ignored by the people who run those countries.
http://www.eurasiareview.com/201008066595/iran-cleric-criticizes-womens-cycling.html
So let’s be clear: for the Mullah’s its their version of Islam BEFORE the notion of Iran.
The Iranians have made some perfectly lovely films – one called Gabai about nomadic carpet-weavers, and another, I’ve forgotten the name, about a blind boy whose father doesn’t want him. Contrast that with the ugly, thuggish face of Ahmedinijad, who now not only dumps on the holocaust, but also the 9-11 attacks http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/ahmadinejad-9-11-terror-attacks-death-toll-was-exaggerated-1.306578
Who can explain what happens to countries and people? Like Nazi Germany. One day the sea is placid, the next it’s a lethal, devastating hurricane. But still the same sea.
It’s been clear to me for a long time that, given to the opportunity, the Iranians would likely create a democratic society.
It does no good to bring back the Shah. He was a dictator supported for his anti-communism. Calling for the Shah’s return is a reactionary position and ignores the progressive forces in Persia that resisted monarchy and tyranny (and were then destroyed by the Ayatollah). What this position doesn’t ignore, however, is the fact that resistance movements and “anti-hegemonic” countercultures are not necessarily progressive, that they take cruel and barbaric forms too, just like the fascism sitting in Tehran right now building a plutonium bomb. This is what leftists don’t understand — they think all forms of resistance to the West is progressive, which couldn’t be more false.
We should reject monarchy, Shahs, the divine right of kings, etc. etc. etc. as we should resist Islamism and theocracy. We should defend democratic rights, the right of free expression, rights for women, religious pluralism and secular government.
“How much influence do exiles have on the tyranny back home?”
I think of Cuba, and those in Miami and elsewhere, spanning generations now, who risked their lives for something better. Yet leaky boats continue to slip away under cover of darkness.
However, until silenced, this is where the Internet can display its power. But at the domestic, street level? Absent outside pressure, I fear only administrative incompetence leading to economic collapse will tip the balance; those with the guns must reach a point where they’re fed up too. Or at least think someone is offering a better deal?
“Never underestimate the idiocy of the masses.”
Mass media control should never be underestimated. A film introduced by General Eisenhower, titled “The True Glory”, describes the Allied effort to liberate 1940s Europe. Troops finally fight their way into the heart of Germany, where a German citizen, referring to the destruction around her, tells an Allied soldier “if you had surrendered in 1940 none of this would have been necessary.”
I like it, excellent music video. Sadly, never going to happen in Gaza during my lifetime.
Ali: Sadly, never going to happen in Gaza during my lifetime.
Never say never. Iran was a lot like Gaza when I was your age.
MJT, respectfully, Iran was modern and pro business during the Shah.
Between 1955 and 1973 Iran grew well over 10% a year in real inflation adjusted terms. After 1973, Iran entered a deep economic depression, much deeper than the US great depression of 1929-1932. This more than any other reason, is probably what caused the collapse of the Shah.
Iranians have always been “modern” by international standards, going back millenia. Pluralism, diversity, relative freedom, are a part of their culture. Iranians have traditionally treated religious minorities [Kurds, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Shiites, Sunnis, Ismaili, Zorastrian, Jewish, Sufi] better than any Arab country. That is also why Khomeini was so unnatural.
The alliance between the Jewish people and Persia lasted from Cyrus the Great until 1978. Chances are it renews itself post the green revolution.
Anan, I wasn’t referring to the time of the Shah.
“The alliance between the Jewish people and Persia lasted from Cyrus the Great until 1978. Chances are it renews itself post the green revolution.”
Not if your buddies in Hamas and Hezbollah get their way and murder all the Jews.
To paraphrase Vanessa Redgrave, Gary Rosen is a zionist troll. His remarks are never anything but ad hominem attacks, and only detract from the spirit of this blog. I vote for censure.
I understand Mark’s perspective, Gary; you’ve lapsed into a one note song. Time for a different tune.
I don’t think that the Iranian regime is going to collapse any time soon. The regime will obtain nuclear weapons & a delivery system no matter how much turmoil there is in Iran unless the nuclear program is destroyed by outside military intervention.
In fact, internal turmoil will spur them on, they believe that obtaining nuclear weapons will ensure the survival of their regime. And, I have no doubt that the internal danger to the regime will make them even more dangerous, they will have an even riskier foreign policy.
Spengler writing for Asia Times Online has written a number of interesting articles relating to Iran which can be found at: The Complete Spengler
http://www.atimes.com/atimes//others/spengler.html
Re: Gary Rosen’s post & the quote about some mythological alliance between Jews & Persia, to think that there was any such alliance is to completely misunderstand history, this is another one of those fallacious myths like the Golden Age of Islamic Spain being tolerant, blah, blah, blah. Shi’a Islam considered the Jews to be unclean, Jews & other minorities were treated worse under Shi’ite rule.
Terry, if you read the stories of the 12 Shiite imams, you will see that they were more compassionate and respectful of Jews and Christians than the Sunni establishment that oppressed both them and nonmuslims. Generally speaking Shiites have been oppressed and as a result had better relations with nonmuslims. There are large exceptions of course. At the very least there have been many coalitions between Shiites and non muslims over the centuries against Sunni monarchs. There have been many examples in history of Takfiri extremists committing genocide against both Shiites and nonmuslims.
I would also argue that Persia has a better reoord of pluralism and respect for diversity than the Arab world.
Do you have evidence for your perspective Terry?
#19 Anan.
Do some research, read about the Jews of Yemen under Shi’ite rule.
If you want specific references, hang on a while, I’ll give you a few.
And mentioninng ”compassion” & Islam in the same sentence is pretty much a joke.
We need to pound this regime of thugs and thieves into the ground. And i would say the same about any regime run by clerics of any religion.
“Iran was a lot like Gaza when I was your age.”
Gaza and Iran are very similar now.
(But perhaps you are only a week older than him?)
#19 Anan.
http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2009/12/22/is-shi%E2%80%99ism-the-iranian-regime%E2%80%99s-%E2%809Cachilles-heel%E2%80%9D/
#19 Anan.
Sorry, the link doesn’t work.
The link is to: Andrew Bostom – ”Is Shi’ism the Iranian Achilles Heel?”
I think you can find it.
Didn’t know about Yemen.
You might want to research Aurangzeb [direct descendant of Genghis Khan and Timur e Lane, emperor of the Mongol/Seljik Turk/Moghul empire.] He committed genocide against many hundreds of thousands of Hindus. He also committed genocide against many tens of thousands Shiites [probably more than tens of thousands] for refusing to convert to the “TRUE” islam. Aurangzeb also oppressed Sufis. Aurangzeb was the last great ruler to rule Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh and India.
To say that Shiites were always better behaved than Salafi extremists would be an over generalization.
Modern Afghanistan was in many ways formed by the battle of 3rd battle of Panipat from 1761, where the first Afghan ruler Ahmad Shah Durrani formed an alliance with Indian Shiites [many from Eastern India] to fight an alliance of Maratha Hindus and extremist Salafi Sunnis [who may have intended to mass murder their Hindu allies after defeating their Afghan and Shiite enemies.]
In Iran and Iraq, I would argue that the Sunni Salafi Takfiri extremists were a bigger threat to Jews than anyone else. Think this was related to their desire to commit genocide against Shiites and Sufis, who they didn’t consider as real muslims.
If not for the Persian emperor, Najaf/Karbala would have been raised and the Shiites and Jews massacred when the Wahhabi crazies from the Arabian peninsula came in the 1800s.
This said, look forward to learning more about Yemen and other examples you have Terry.
#25 Anan.
It would be nice if my memory were better. I read an analysis of the beliefs of the Ayatollah Khomenei but I don’t remember the author nor the title.
The gist of it was that according to Shi’ite doctrine, infidels, particularly Jews, were unclean, that any contact was impure, that any liquid like sweat from a Jew would contaminate a Muslim, and it went on & on, all the various ways that contact with Jews renders a Muslim impure. It reminded me of how some Hindus regarded contact with untouchables – I lived in India for a year & saw this. Even the shadow of an untouchable would make a plate unclean, not to be eaten off of.
Terry, technically all non Hindus might be considered untouchables, I believe.
It isn’t that the plate couldn’t be eaten out of, I think. But a prayer should be made before a plate can eaten out of. But a prayer should probably be said anyway regardless of who else touched it.
There is a an old saying “tell me who your friends are and I will tell you who you are.” For this reason, people avoid the company of those they don’t know. Over time this has morphed into the kind of irrationality that you might have seen.
I don’t really think thats mainstream Shiite thought.
correction: I really don’t Khomeinist doctrine is mainstream Shiite thought
On the treatment of Jews in Iran, it is a very mixed story (as history tends to be). Under Pahlavi rule, it was moderately reasonable. Under Achaemenid, Parthian and Sassanid rule (i.e. pre Islam) it was variable (the later Sassanids tended to become more intolerant), but mostly reasonable. In early Islam, when Muslims were a thin ruling layer and the costs of intolerance was therefore high, it was on the better end of dhimmitude. As the Muslim proportion of the population increased, and the costs of intolerance fell, things tended to get worse. With the Safavid dynasty, founded by the last of series of hereditary Grand Masters of a Sufi order, the very religious nature of the new Iranian state encouraged a severe attitude to religious dissent and difference. This continued under the Qatar dynasty who preceded the Pahlavis. There has been some tendency for Iranian Islam to be “more Muslim than Muslim” to make up for being not-Arabs. So, it is a mixed story. Khomeini was at war with some trends in Iranian history but also represented others.
another correction: I really don’t think Khomeinist doctrine is mainstream Shiite thought
#31 Ali.
Actually, while Khomenei & his collegues were more extreme, the notion of infidels, particularly Jews, being unclean, is established Shi’ia doctrine.
I particularly liked his opinion on sex with animals. I think that was a subject that would have been better ignored. While many Westerners, being primarily urban, find this practice rather bizarre, I remember when I was young & in Morocco, which was primarily rural, we made a lot of jokes about this rather common practice, it was not considered a serious moral question, just something to laugh about.
In any case, this idea of ritual impurity is not emphasized in Sunni Islam to my knowledge.
Don Cox: Gaza and Iran are very similar now.
Governments yes, people no.
Ali: I really don’t think Khomeinist doctrine is mainstream Shiite thought
You’re quite right, it isn’t.
#34 Michael Totten.
There are a few sects of Shi’ia Islam, not that I’m all that familiar with each one, so I’m not sure what ”mainstream” really means. If you had to characterize Khomeiniism, what would you say puts it outside of the mainstream?
Terry: If you had to characterize Khomeiniism, what would you say puts it outside of the mainstream?
Well, for starters it’s anti-quietist. It’s also new in the world. It never existed before, which is why many scholars of Islam refer to it as “innovative.”
Also, according to Amir Taheri, the people most likely to be jailed in Khomeinist Iran over time have been clerics.
Welayat-Al-Faqih, which means rule of the Jurisprudent. Seems like a pretty bizarre thing to me. I think it was almost unheard of before Khomeini.
#36 Michael Totten.
I’m very familiar with the term (bida’a in Arabic) ”innovation” but I thought that was more of a Sunni thing. Actually, even my grandfather used the term for certain Jewish customs which he refused to observe on the grounds that they were ”innovations” –
Anti-quietist, by that you mean revolutionary, yes? In the sense of violently exporting revolution against established gov’t.’s.
#38 Ali.
Exactly, that’s what I read, direct rule by clerics. It’s not bizarre, it’s totalitarian. They’re extending & re-interpreting rules to apply to things like men’s haircuts, make-up for women even if they’re wearing a chador, this is forbidding the permitted. But, the motive is to crush the spirit of the people, oppression. In Morocco, we had the Oulema, the religious scholars, who often weighed in on any changes (such as changes to the status of women) & while the King had to take their opinion into consideration, as Commander of the Faithful, the King had a certain religious authority. Anyway, religious scholars had a personal financial interest in supporting the monarchy, gee, what a surprise!
Wasn’t it the same in Saudi Arabia?
Ali: Sadly, never going to happen in Gaza during my lifetime.
MJT: Never say never. Iran was a lot like Gaza when I was your age.
While I wouldn’t rule out some sort of political change in Gaza, one day, on a cultural level I do not think we will ever see a similar cultural change within the Arab world (excluding Lebanon) that we see in Iran. From the looks of it, many young Iranians want not just democracy, but also a secular society where, for example, girls are free to wear what they want and walk hand-in-hand in public with their boyfriends. I just can’t see this happening in the hyper conservative Arab world. The whole family honor thing runs too deep. A truly socially subversive rock-n-roll type youthful revolution in the Arab world seems unlikely.
Terry,
Quietism means Shia clerics are supposed to stay out of politics and leave the governing of the world to the worldly until the Mahdi returns. Khomeini turned that on its head and believed deliberate action by men could hasten the Mahdi’s return.
Iraq’s Ayatollah Sistani is a quietest. He believes Islamic government cannot be constructed on earth before the Mahdi comes back.
#42 Michael Totten.
Thank you, I learned a new term. This ”hasten the return of the Mahdi” thing is a very dangerous idea, especially if hastening really means apocalypse, as in nuclear war.
anand has a long record of lies, misinformation, and support for the annihilationists of Hamas and Hezbollah. I have no apology for calling him out on it.
Is the consensus here, then, that Sistani represents mainstream Shiism? Of course the question is begged, what is “mainstream Shiism”?
Sistani does not go as far as Khomeini concerning velayat-e-faqih, but that hardly makes him a friend of freedom and tolerance.
from answersdotcom:
His view of music?
“All songs (al-ghinã’) are harãm. Based on the definition that we accept, al-ghinã’ is the entertaining expression by way of tunes that are common to those who provide entertainment and amusement.”
His view of pet dogs:
“Like most [Muslim] scholars, Ayatollah al-Sistani considers dogs to be impure (although he considers cats to be pure):
Question: Is it permissible to keep a dog? If not, why?
Answer: It is permissible to keep a guard dog but it is najis [unclean].”
His view of clothing:
“Ayatollah al-Sistani holds the traditional views on clothing for both males and females.” [traditional views: "Most agree[1] that it is covering the “awrah”, from the belly button to the knees for men and from the head to the toes for women except the hands and the face or eyes, depending on what view one follows.”]
His view of homosexuals [from Andrew McCarthy at FoundationforDefenseofDemocraciesdotcom]:
“Healing Iraq found a relevant page in the Arabic section of Sistani’s site. The page is evidently not available in the English section (suggesting that the grand ayatollah is familiar with the practice, turned into an art form by Yasser Arafat, of shielding gullible Westerners with whom one is ingratiating oneself from some of the more alarming things one says to Arabic-speaking audiences). The Arabic page is here. I’ve confirmed with language experts that the following translation of the relevant passage is accurate:
Q: What is the judgment on sodomy and lesbianism?
A: Forbidden. Those involved in the act should be punished. In fact, sodomites should be killed in the worst manner possible.”
Note also Sistani [again not in his English website; this is from the McCarthy article but can be found elsewhere] views: “Sistani’s stated view that non-Muslims should be considered in the same category as “urine, feces, semen, dead bodies, blood, dogs, pigs, alcoholic liquors, and “the sweat of an animal who persistently eats [unclean things].””
That list of najis things is available online and currently being taught to students here in the USA, in New Jersey. Look it up by copying and pasting if you wish and be sure to note:
“9. Kafir – An infidel, meaning a person who does not believe in Allah and His Oneness, is najis. Anyone who believes that the 12 Imams are God, or anyone who is an enemy to the Imams, is najis. Also, those who deny Prophethood or any of the necessary laws of Islam, like prayer and fasting, are najis.
It is possible that the Jews and Christians are not najis, but it is better to avoid them.
The entire body of a Kafir, including his hair and nails, and all liquid substances of his body, are najis.”
Sistani prefers to stay out of direct governance but that may be to allow others to have to take the criticism and do the dirty deeds of governance. For Sistani, sharia is the basis of law and society.
Del, I don’t even know what to make of that weirdness from Sistani. I have yet to meet a single person anywhere in the Middle East who takes that stuff seriously. Pure ayatollahdom is incredibly detached from reality, even Middle Eastern reality.
It’s usful to visit this part of the world to see what it’s really like, how people actually live and behave in the real world. It’s a lot more interesting than the bizarre material Sistani puts on his Web site.
Del, just so that you know, Sistani rocks!!!
On your first point, Sistani doesn’t seem to oppose music if it is dedicated to God. However, he urges his followers to dedicate the music they listen to to God. That is a huge difference from the Takfiri extremist bigots.
On clothing, the Koran equally urges both men and woman to dress modestly. Sistani is repeating this general guidance. However, based on your quote, his definition for modesty for men is a little less rigorous, which does seem unfair.
Sistani opposes homosexuality. Almost all organized religions do. Not the men to men soul mate part, which is acceptable. But the idea of any copulation out of the bounds of marraige. i.e. having copulation with a woman or man you are not married to is as abominable as have copulation with the same sex or animals. [Suspect all religions take a harder line on children.] However, capital punishment for homosexuality is entirely different and unacceptable. Some Shiites claim that Sistani doesn’t support capital punishment for homosexuality but rather some type of therapy. Del, perhaps you can look into it?
You misinterpret Najis Del. I can look up what some Shiites have told me on the subject. I think they define Najis as anyone who chooses to look upon the 12 Shiite imams and Shiites as enemies, which is kind of Duh.
Shiites teach the value of good company, or only hanging out with people that you know have good character. That is why they [and all religions that I know of] teach to avoid people we don’t know.
Zeyad from Healing Iraq has long time issues with Sistani, whom he partially blames for the deaths of some family members.
Del, have yet to meet any Asians from any religion who didn’t think dogs were impure. I think maybe it has to do with the licking? Anyway, this dog impure thing is pre islamic.
Anan: On your first point, Sistani doesn’t seem to oppose music if it is dedicated to God.
I guess he wouldn’t care too much for the music video I just posted then.
I, for one, would flat-out refuse to live in a country where all music is dedicated to God. Such a place would be ghastly, and could only be forged through vicious Taliban-style totalitarianism. Fortunately, Iraq–for all its catastrophic problems–doesn’t have that problem.
Blurred Vision rocks (literally). Sistani does not.
On the dog issue, most dog owners think dogs are “impure” is some abstract sense. That doesn’t mean they love their dogs any less.
To further what MJT says, Sistani comes from the Najaf Marjeya tradition. As a result many questions have had stock answers for 14 centuries. They aren’t necessarily Sistani’s opinion per say. If you asked him a direct question from real life, suspect he would give you much more nuanced and common sense answers. Even though Sistani repeats the stock answers of his ancestors from Ali and Fatimah, he doesn’t prioritize all these answers equally. Suspect he would say that following some things are far more important than following other things. Loving God and being good might top the list for example.
Del, you might talk to people who have actually met Sistani in person. Sistani seems very impressive to me. He is an old man who really seems to want to serve his fellow human being and do right under God’s eyes. Sistani detests politics and people who bring up politics in front of him.
MJT, I would be reluctant to answer for Sistani. I could forward this question to someone who knows Sistani.
But I think you are right. Imagine he would probably give you a strange look if you asked him about this music video. Something like, please leave me alone and stop acting ridiculous questions.
If anything, the politics in the song might be most boring for him [and he is as strong an opponent of Khamanei as they come.] He might say something like love God, be a good person, and fill your mind with politics.
MJT, in my tradition dedicating things to God means offering all that is good in the world that we enjoy to God and thanking God for it. It doesn’t mean every piece of music should be of a specific type. Might that be similar to what a Shiite Marja might say? Don’t know.
The Sufis love music and regard all music and all melody as God on earth. All music comes from God from their perspective. Sufis are a type of “Shiite” since they originate from Ali and Fatimah too.
Thinking out load, perhaps Del’s quote referred to songs that are about lust and temptation rather than purer nobler things. If so, then obviously a Shiite Marja would tell you to focus on songs that aren’t primarily about lust and temptation. What would you expect them to say? At the same time, they would probably tell you that there are many more important things in life that we need to work on than “music.”
“He might say something like love God, be a good person, and “DON’T” fill your mind with politics.”
Anan: they would probably tell you that there are many more important things in life that we need to work on than “music.”
Yeah, well, they can get stuffed. Seriously. At one point in my life I had to make a decision. I would be either a writer or a musician. It’s obvious which one I chose, but I could have gone the other way, and I really don’t need any input on the subject from Iraqi or Iranian clerics who don’t know jack squat about it.
I heard a story in Iraq from Iranian exiles (don’t know if it’s true) that the Iranian government arrested a female singer who recorded an album of love songs and pulled out her teeth.
If Sufis were the predominant sect of Islam the Middle East would be a truly wonderful place. I have only visited two predominately Muslim countries, Morocco and Turkey and found the people in both countries to be nice and honest ( maybe not the carpet salesman), Please not that both countries have Jews and Christians in the population. I think they keep a low profile but for the most part are not persecuted. I have met a fair number of Iranians and don’t think there was one that I didn’t lice. Saudis however are a different matter, and if I were to guess I would think Americans are better liked in Turkey than are Saudis.
MJT,
you wrote: “I have yet to meet a single person anywhere in the Middle East who takes that stuff seriously.”
Are you saying that the hezbollah people you met in Lebanon do not take Sistani’s [He is after all a grand ayatollah and mujtahid] views seriously, or are you referring only to the man-on-the-street sort of person?
Anand,
you wrote: “in my tradition dedicating things to God means offering…”
What is your tradition?
Michael: “according to Amir Taheri, the people most likely to be jailed in Khomeinist Iran over time have been clerics.”
seems consistent with
Lorenzo: “some tendency for Iranian Islam to be “more Muslim than Muslim”
And semite5000: “From the looks of it, many young Iranians want not just democracy, but also a secular society” is certainly consistent with the admittedly small number of Iranian nationals I’ve met in America over the years. But anecdotal evidence, however interesting it may be, is always a shaky platform. I share Michael’s feeling that in-person experience is the best evidence.
Iran was a lot like Gaza when I was your age.
I don’t think so; not ever. Not while Gaza was under the Ottomans (but not Persia); not between WW I- WW II; not under semi-democratic post WW II Iran & the popular socialist/communist that Ike (& his admin) wouldn’t allow to be elected as leader (I’m fuzzy on the details outside of a movie I saw on this).
I don’t believe Iran’s growth from 1973-1979 was much less than the prior 5 years (please provide link?); not while oil was booming in price.
After Carter allowed the Shah to be ousted, the takeover of Khomeni occurred in Iran, an industrializing, long civilized people. Not during the Crusades, nor ever after, could Gaza be considered an industrializing place, nor its people particularly civilized.
The thin veneer of top political oppression might well be similar between Hamas in the last decade and Iran with Khomeni, but as you rightly say, the people’s culture underneath is different.
There is far more hope for Iran … unless Israel chooses to re-occupy Gaza and do a better job of nation-building. (Perhaps no peace until then?)
Jew-hate is too easy & common, even fashionable again among intellectuals, to expect any real Iranian anti-cleric movement to become friends with Israel.
Heck, even secular Jews in Israel are unable to avoid being offended by devout Jews believing in miracles (from the prior thread). Though anti-cleric Iranians might well become friends with secular Jews who are anti-rabbi to one extent or another.
#40 Yes it was the same in Saudi Arabia. I imagine Moroccan clerics were a lot more liberal though, no?
Sistani reminds of that grandfather in every neighborhood that everybody pretends to respect. Nobody actually listens to him, not even the Hezbollah supporters except for the most hardcore. There are many who drink wine and alcohol etc. who support Hezbollah.
MJT: I, for one, would flat-out refuse to live in a country where all music is dedicated to God. Such a place would be ghastly, and could only be forged through vicious Taliban-style totalitarianism. Fortunately, Iraq–for all its catastrophic problems–doesn’t have that problem.
Christian rock on every radio station–all day, everyday!
Anan: The Sufis love music and regard all music and all melody as God on earth. All music comes from God from their perspective. Sufis are a type of “Shiite” since they originate from Ali and Fatimah too.
Cool, so Sufis dig death metal? Slayer! Hell yeah! Or how about some good old 80s metal, like Motley Crue–Shout at the Devil!!!!
semite5k,
Or my favorite get-me-through-exercise album (I almost showed my age by typing “LP”): Bon Jovi: “Slippery When Wet.”
Ah, youth…it seems so long ago…
Forgotten Man,
There are Shia sufis and Sunni sufis. Most are Sunnis. Sufis aren’t a separate sect. Sufism is a mystical approach to understanding, as opposed to a “rational” approach.
The whirling dervishes of the Sudan were Sufis. Islam in the Ottoman Empire was greatly influenced by Sufism. Consideration of these examples should give some pause to any who believe the Suleiman Schwartz propagated meme of the peaceful, tolerant fun-loving Sufis.
anad,
Sistani doesn’t exactly come from “the Najaf tradition” (not that “the Najaf tradition” is tolerant and so separate from Qom, as you so fervently attempt to mislead others to believe…didn’t Khomeini teach and lecture at the Najaf seminary?). Sistani was born in Iran and his native tongue is Farsi.
Ali,
In reference to Sistani, you wrote, “Nobody actually listens to him”. Are you really sure of that?
Well that may’ve been an exaggeration, but it isn’t like the Hezbollah freaks hang on his every word.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlIuRhn0n80
Just wait until the Mullahs find out they were right. Satan has all the best songs.
NOT YOUR
FATHERS
RABBI,
R
Great link, Render!
@MJT: What instrument do you play? What sort of musical career were you considering, rock, classical, jazz …?
Del,
Not even the Hezbollah people go that far.
Tom Grey,
I meant that Iran in 1980 was a lot like Gaza is now.
Very few Muslim countries have theocratic-totalitarian governments.
Ali: Sistani reminds of that grandfather in every neighborhood that everybody pretends to respect. Nobody actually listens to him, not even the Hezbollah supporters except for the most hardcore.
Yes.
He does seem to be genuinely liked among some, though, for his opposition to Khomeini and the Iraqi militias.
Del: Consideration of these examples should give some pause to any who believe the Suleiman Schwartz propagated meme of the peaceful, tolerant fun-loving Sufis.
I know Stephen, and I’ve met some of his Sufi friends. You’re wrong about them.
Digby: the scum of the Likudnik pack
Even the left-wing Israelis I know would think you’re an asshole.
forget about us–and let us, please, forget about you.
Okay then. Good bye. You clearly have issues, and you should take them elsewhere.
Semite5000: What instrument do you play?
None now, but I used to be pretty good at the piano. I never learned the guitar.
#57 Ali.
I don’t think the Moroccan clerics were more liberal, when I was young, they avoided politics or anything ”controversial”, mostly lecturing about praying, fasting on Ramadan, modesty for women, we used to watch a TV show with clerics lecturing & my Muslim friends were in stitches laughing, explaining the Qur’an in Moroccan dialect was hilarious although it went over ok among the very uneducated (which was almost everyone in those days). The basic message was, ”Pray & Shut Up.” Now, of course, it’s no laughing matter. Little by little, sermonizing became more political & ideological. They even began mixing Classical Arabic terms with our dialect & quoting foreign clerics. Of course, the Friday mosque sermons are still gov’t. controlled so they can’t get too radical – but tapes & CD’s are sold outside the mosque & they’re usually from Saudi Arabia & they’re pretty venomous. This was one of the reasons I decided to leave – the Friday sermons became anti-Semitic. A close friend would tell me the details as related by his fanatic brother who attended. You watch MEMRI – that’s what these sermons were like.
What it boils down to is that the clerics are gaining power over the King.
Ali.
You were talking about Gaza, how you don’t think you’ll see change in your life-time.
But, you surely know how change could come – Israel should go in very forcefully & kill the entire Hamas leadership & disarm Gaza, even if it means a house-to-house search for arms. It would take perhaps 30,000 IDF soldiers & take at most a year.
So 5,000 Gazans, mostly terrorists anyway, would get killed. But, 1,5 million Gazans would be liberated from Hamas. I would absolutely NOT hand back Gaza to Abbas & his Fatah crooks. Instead, I would try to get local people involved in self-gov’t., initially with a lot of over-sight to prevent too much corruption. I would throw out the UN & gradually put an end to the culture of dependence & refugee status. People should be encouraged to start small businesses to earn a living, no grandious projects though, they rarely work.
But, this will never happen because all the ”humanitarians” want Gaza to remain a cancerous shithole – this is what ”humanitarianism” means today.
Terry,
Are you then assuming Hamas members will stick it out and not flee, particularly with no nonsense rules of engagement? And say this purge succeeds, how large an Israeli force would then have to sit on Gaza, and for how long, to prevent their meddling and/or return?
And make the “international community” take their complaints elsewhere? Water flowing uphill has better odds of success.
#73 Paul S.
I thought I made it clear – this will not happen. In today’s political climate, it’s just not possible.
In stricly military terms, it’s very practical.
If after an initial phase, a small IDF force remains in Gaza, so what? Most troops could stay outside of Gaza later, I mean, it’s not exactly a big place.
But, like I said, it won’t happen, although, eventually, there will be another operation like Cast Lead because Hamas will start launching more missiles & eventually cause enough casualties to force the Israeli gov’t. to react – possibly, this would be in the context of a wider war with Lebanon. But, knowing Israeli politicians & the immediate international pressure, the results will be inconclusive & Hamas will remain in power.
As to Hamas members fleeing – look at a map. How hard do you think it would be to block any escape route into Egypt, leaving aside the point that maybe Egypt would not like them fleeing into Egypt?
What is really happening is that the international community of morons, chief among them, the Moron-in-Chief in the White House, is moving to legitimize Hamas, probably with a view towards forcing a ”unity gov’t.” on Fatah.
Terry, what you’re saying is great. I totally believe it would work, if Israelis stick to it, but it could be disastrous if they don’t.
#75 Ali.
Sure it would work – I didn’t even go into detail. Notice, I didn’t say that this would be a permanant occupation or an annexation. So it would take 10 years of semi-military Israeli rule, gradually allowing for more & more local control, maybe leading to autonomy for a while, then, some form of independance & free elections.
But no religious political parties, no Fatah either. No union with the West Bank either.
But who is going to allow this to happen? Israeli politicians are mediocre at best, the rest of the ”international community” has lost it’s collective mind, & the Arabs desperately need the ”Israeli enemy” to distract from their abysmal failures.
On a more pleasant subject (& apologies to Mr Totten for being so off topic), could I recommend to you some music that you might find to your liking?
On YouTube, Benjamin Bouzaglo ”Ramel Maya Djiri” ……
Let me know what you think.
I like it, but what language is it?
Michael, who’s digby?
Ali,
I meant to reply to digbydolben in the other thread.
#77 Ali.
It’s mixed Hebrew & Arabic (I’m not sure what dialect).
Raml Maya is one of the surviving noubas of the musique andalouse. When I was young, there were some piyyutim (a Jewish religious poem) which were sung in Hebrew, Arabic, & 16th Century Spanish, alternating verses, sadly, I have never found a recording. This is the musical tradition I grew up with, the music from Spain.
This type of music was brought to Morocco, Algeria, & Tunisia with the Jews & Muslims forced out of Spain. Various traditions are specific to cities in Spain, Seville, Cordoba, also Gharnata (Grenada).
Glad you liked it.
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/07/ff_stress_cure/
effects of long term stress…..
And one more forgive me. I was thinking here in terms of stress and mortality. These things have much to do with the problems in Iran and the people who “speak for God”.
http://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2010/08/hitchens-talks-to-goldblog-about-cancer-and-god/61072/
Hezbollah’s Nasrallah holding ‘press conference’ (via video link cuz he’s too wussy to show himself) to discuss STL and Hariri assassination. Naharnet.com has the latest. Me thinks he complains too much about STL, which makes him look guilty as hell.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jBvCxlK6YMrSDIgr5B0jeAWlfljgD9HG7MLG2
Like I said on another thread. The damage caused by Lebanese Army is pretty stupid.
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100810/FOREIGN/708099821/1041/NATIONAL
Someone please blow him up and have a ten year investigation as to who is responsible.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/70728
The same sub it seems that sunk the Korea Ship. An Iranian made Yugo. These seem as dangerous a trigger as the Lebanese sniper. Let’s hope littoral defense is up to snuff.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2010/080310c.html
Israel and Iran from one point of view…
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=184214
Where has Iran fallen?
Sounds like something that could have been written by Patrick Buchanan, Maxtrue. There are so many holes that can be punched in their analysis, especially regarding the build-up to the Six Days War. Further, how can they possibly know Israel will attack within a month? And how can they be so certain that an Israeli attack will result in Israel’s destruction? Why would Israel attack now, just when Iran is starting to feel the pinch of sanctions? One would think the Israelis would hold off a bit, see where the sanctions against Iran lead. Everybody knows there’s a shitload of unrest in Iran.
The analysis seems to be driven more by a political agenda/opinion rather than a sober reading of history and current tidbits of information.
#61
I stand corrected. Sufism is not a sect. Your point about Sufis taking a mystical approach vs. taking a ” rational approach” to understanding. I agree with that statement also. That is one of the reasons I really like and respect Sufis. On the other hand what is a rational approach to understanding something that is based on faith. I don’t think any religious beliefs can be scientifically proven so any approach based on rationality is a waste of time.
I will make time to further study Islam,I would like to understand it better but I don’t expect that the basis for Islam is based on rational thought.
S-5000 I agree, This is the kind of stuff circulating on the “left” as a kind of confirmation of the “centerness” of their thinking. I think it is full of holes, but I wanted people to see what logic they are up against as tensions ratchet up.
I think Gurdjieff brought forward an interesting “sufism” geared for the West. His approach was void of overt religiosity, although he certainly claimed religion held “secret” information.
http://www.slate.com/id/2263334/?from=rss
But no nation has a right to impose democracy on another. Obmessiah pointed that out in his Cairo speech.
“Sounds like something that could have been written by Patrick Buchanan, Maxtrue.”
There are few people on earth I despise more than that Nazi but I’m not sure if even Buchanan has accused Israel of instigating the 1967 war. These guys are unbelievable.
“And how can they be so certain that an Israeli attack will result in Israel’s destruction?”
They have no such certainty, it is a pathetically transparent attempt to make it look like they really have Israel’s interests at heart. About as convincing as anand.
“The analysis seems to be driven more by a political agenda/opinion rather than a sober reading of history and current tidbits of information.”
Ya think??
On second thought, maybe it’s not driven by “political agenda/opinion”. It simply may be driven by money. I bet these guys are getting oil money.
#90 Ali.
Re: the link from Slate on the GZ mosque.
Many people, particularly politicians or liberal idiots like Mr Foxman of the ADL, are bound by a certain political correctness & resort to relatively stupid arguments against the proposed mosque. They just won’t come right out and say Islam is an evil, totalitarian, enemy ideology that must be defeated.
Here’s an interesting post from someone less politically correct & much smarter than Mr Hitchens. At the Sultan Knish blog, ”Is Islam’s Problem a Lack of Modernity?”
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/
Off the subject, if you liked the style of that music, there is a very large repertoire, the poetry is beautiful, much of it you will understand much better than I do since it’s in classical Arabic. YouTube unfortunately does not have the best selection but CD’s should be easy to find. I would say that an outstanding recording is by Taoufik Bestandji, ”Poemes d’Amour” (Nouba Ghrib/Nouba Cika) Al Sur ALCD 150.
Another is Hamdi Benani, ”Nouba Cika” Malouf de Annaba. ALCD 159.
Maxtrue.
What’s the use of reading that trash from Veterans for BS or whatever the name was?
They aren’t making an argument, this isn’t analysis, just Israel-bashing pure & simple, propaganda. They start with an anti-Israel proposition & work backwards, looking for any BS to support their position. It is the opposite of analysis.
Do you think these people are seriously motivated by American national interest?
Quite the contrary, their anti-Semitism is more important to them than America.
The article about stress was very interesting, however. Thanks.
#92 Gary – Pat Buchanan does claim that Israel was “provoked” in 1967 but he tends to fixate on the USS Liberty on that subject. He and his followers have cleverly reveled themselves as open Holocaust deniers and historical revisionists over the last half decade.
I wonder how long he would survive if he woke up tomorrow morning in Miram Shah, North Waziristan, FATA, Pakistan?
LET
EM
BURN,
R
I know Islam isn’t inherently evil because I am not.
Ali, most Muslims aren’t evil, Islam as an ideology is evil.
I’m not talking about the folk customs either. I had f’tar with my friends during Ramadan, went to a lot of weddings, had boulfaf (liver brochettes) & tea at Aid L’Kebir, went to circumcisions, I never considered most people ”evil” even if they had some beliefs I didn’t care for (like being anti-Semites) & I more or less accepted the way of life in a Muslim country. But, the mosque was a source of evil, hatred, backwardness, the Imams were nasty morons for the most part, ignorant & intolerent, the damage that Islamic law did to people was awful, inhuman. It caused intellectual stagnation, tried to stop all progress, ruined the lives of women, gays, & non-conformists, promoted the worst kind of hypocrisy, spread conspiracy theories & a non-rational approach to life, it was an enemy of every freedom.
And, it was maintained by fear & intimidation, by force.
There is a great deal that is good in the culture & traditions of my country, the art forms, the architecture, the music, a fantastic culinary tradition, the grace & beauty of our traditional forms of clothing, the manners & hospitality.
But Islamic ideology ……
Terry, it is important at least from my perspective, to see what the arguments are. VIPS are pernicious in that they try to sound like thinking (watching out for Israel..lol) with the legitimacy of being vets. Then this crap makes the round on the Left blogosphere. It is better to deconstruct the BS. As I mentioned, here, there is a battle over the narrative which forms the backbone of Congressional support.
No, you’re not Ali…
Render, we can only wish….
Yeah Terry, you guys could write a book on stress. I am curious. How does the mortality rate in Israel stack up against Europe and America?
Be nice, Chris has a lot of stress….
#101 Maxtrue.
I don’t think people here are more stressed out than in America, probably less. Polls always show Israelis are very happy, much happier than Americans, for example.
People are healthy, generally, obesity is less of a problem here than in the States or Europe. We live long, at the high end for modern countries, I think 78 for men & 82 for women, although statistics might be off because of the Arab sector. My impression is that more Israelis smoke than Americans.
If you want stress, you’d have to go to my former home – you don’t know what stress is until you live in an Arab country. Much as I liked living there & still miss it, it was very stressful (and not because I’m a Jew). It has a lot to do with authoritarian society, no one minds their business, your family mixes in over everything, & if I go by the article you linked to, almost everyone is low status except a small minority, plus, there is a lot of uncertainty, arbitrary enforcement of laws & regulations, corruption by low level bureaucrats, you have no privacy, a whole host of things that cause stress.
I find life here in Israel remarkably unstressful.
This terrible recession has tens of millions of Americans stressed out like never before–me included as I’ve been chronically unemployed. Meanwhile, the Israeli economy is humming along, and at least most Western Europeans have more of a social safety net than Americans.
We’ve been telling ourselves for so long that America is the best place to live that we haven’t noticed that in many ways it no longer is, imho.
I saw this a few days ago:
Arab Majority Backs Nuclear Iran
Friday, 06 Aug 2010 07:56 AM
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/Arab–Majority-Nuclear–Iran/2010/08/06/id/366783
Zogby polls are not very reliable. Nevertheless…Is there that large a disconnect between Arab governments (seem to clearly oppose a nuclear armed Iran) and Arab citizens on this issue?
Saw that too Del. I said, “never underestimate the idiocy of the Arab Street.
Interesting Terry, counter intuitive… Yes, S-5000, you have a point.
Chillin is an art….
The stresses Terry describes take me back to different but related conversations I had with a Saudi classmate, who obviously lived in a different world economically at home compared to many Arabs. She described the “gold plated prison” (her term) of a family’s “protection” (her quotes) that was depressing suffocation from her perspective. As we talked, in America, her telling me “if you came to my country you’d feel like you had just landed on the moon”, I heard the despair in her voice and saw the sadness in her eyes.
@ Paul: I heard the despair in her voice and saw the sadness in her eyes.
You got to see her eyes? What a slut.
J/K
S-5000, you’re funny. As for Women: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC06.php?CID=1495
The women of Hizb’Allah….
http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LH11Ak01.html
Saudis v Iranians
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/16/100816fa_fact_anderson
After the Iranian election…..
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/08/russian-fires-approach-nuclear-plants/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-shahryar/irans-uprising-continues_b_676642.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10921963
Saudi eyes for S-5000
Not funny, semite.
Paul, you usually have a great humor going, What’s up? Okay, here is some historic humor: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-10925061
Yes, there is some humor in irony….
Oh, and it’s not Paris burning but Moscow…..
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/08/russian-fires-approach-nuclear-plants/
Paul S.: “Not funny, semite.”
I disagree, it is funny.
You lady friend was not insulted, Saudi regime was and rightfully so.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/gov_paterson_offers_state_help_to_2JxWuBLAyGbLsDGVMt2sTP
Okay, this might cheer some up…..
Irony is that a blind man can see what many others can’t….
@ Maxtrue:
Yes, I read about Hezbollah’s reaction to Wehbe; hardly surprising. They are, after all, Islamic fundamentalists.
The Iranian-Saudi rivalry is also not surprising since Iraq is sort of out of the picture and therefore Saudi Arabia is the major Sunni Arab power in the Persian Gulf. I’ve often thought how an Iranian democratic revolution might change the Sunni-Arab vs. Persian-Shiite rivalry. Perhaps not all that much.
Paul, I was just joking around … but now that I’m started (and yes, I have too much time on my hands tonight, although this didn’t take that long …):
Saudi girls just seem to find out early
How to open doors, with just their eyes
A rich old sheikh
And she won’t have to worry
She’ll dress up in her abaya and go in style
Late at night, big old tent gets lonely
I guess every form of refuge has its Palestinian
And it breaks her heart to think her love is
Only given to a sheikh with hands as cold as ice
So she asks him for permission to go out for the evening
To comfort an old friend who’s feelin’ down
But he knows where she’s going and she’s leaving
She’s heading for the shopping side of town
You can’t hide your Saudi eyes
And your smile is totally disguised
I thought by now you’d realize
There ain’t no way to hide your Saudi eyes
On the other side of Jedda a boy is waiting
With fiery eyes and dreams no Jew could steal
Her chauffer drives her through the night, she’s anticipating
‘Cause he makes her feel the way she used to feel
She wants to rush into his arms
But the muttawa are watching
She whispers she could go for a kabob
But the restaurant is divided by the sexes
She decides to get falafel, all alone
You can’t hide your Saudi eyes
And your smile is totally disguised
I thought by now you’d realize
There ain’t no way to hide your Saudi eyes
She gets up and pours herself Turkish coffee
And stares out at the stars across the sky
Another night, it’s gonna be a long one
She adjusts her hijab and hangs her head to cry
She wonders how it ever got this majnoon
She thinks about a boy her brother knew in madrassa
Did she get tired, or is it just the xanax?
She’s so far gone she feels just like a Jew
Oh allah, you sure know how to arrange things
You set it up so well, so carefully
Ain’t it funny how your new life didn’t change things
You’re still the same baby-making factory you used to be
You can’t hide your Saudi eyes
And your smile is totally disguised
I thought by now you’d realize
There ain’t no way to hide your Saudi eyes
There ain’t no way to hide your Saudi eyes
Habibi, you can’t hid your Saudi eyes
My thoughts on the Cordoba Mosque:
A lot of people that are opposed to it are bigots, but not all of them.
Muslims have every right to build a religious center; this is America, after all, and we have freedom of religion.
The mosque/community center is not going to be built at Ground Zero.
But it’s close by, and surely the folks behind the initiative had to know it would cause controversy.
So why cause controversy?
Look all, the stuff we discuss here is dead serious. I don’t know about the rest of y’all, but sometimes a little levity is in order, no?
The song is in your heads’, isn’t it? Yeah: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R57u7mhAcs
Actually, it’s even funnier if you play the YouTube song and then read my rendition at the same time.
semite5000: “The mosque/community center is not going to be built at Ground Zero.”
I am pretty much think so too, but I am not 100% certain of it.
Perhaps this imam (sorry, too lazy to look up his name) instead will eventually be forces to offer 130M$ contribution to rebuild WTC as a gesture of good faith he so tirelessly professes. But it will take some doing for some smart people of power, which I see none so far.
S-5000 no problem with some lighter stuff. We toil in the heavy. As YOU said, got to chill out the stress.
Ground Zero mosque/welcome center is a political problem, not a religious one. There is a mosque four blocks from ground zero.
Terry,
I agree that it is wise to make a distinction between Islam and Muslims and, presumably unsurprisingly, agree with you.
A question, please:
A while ago, I read a book by Lawrence Rosen, “The Anthropology of Justice [subtitled:] law as culture in islamic society “, published by Cambridge University Press in 1989. I once posted a couple of what I felt were the most insightful quotations here [at michaeltottendotcom]. Based on your experience in Morocco, would you agree with them? Here they are again:
a) truth (pg. 22): “Consider first the issue of truth…Moroccans appear to make a clear distinction between statements made in the course of establishing a relationship and the truth or falseness that can be said to attach to any utterance. This distinction sounds peculiar to western ears since even if we do not believe someone who says he is our friend or who claims to know another person quite well we at least regard such statements as having some bearing on the issue of truth, as capable of of being assessed at some level as true or false. But when a Moroccan makes such a bare statement, it is well understood that this utterance functions not like a statement that is true or false but rather like a price mentioned in the market-place, a figure that cannot be said to be true or false until it is accepted, validated by some additional act performed by oneself or another, and thus brought from the realm of the proposed into the world of activities that affect the relationships among people…the things people say about relationships to one another really operate like bargaining positions…are not held to standards of truth or falseness before they have been solidified by some act that brings them into the world of truth, the world of human relationships.”
b) justice (pg. 74) “Everywhere one encounters in Islamic life the idea of justice…The Muslim concept of justice is thus one of those domains in which a host of social, political, and ethical ideas come into uneasy coalescence, and the contrast between American ideas, diverse, fluctuating, often inchoate, and Islamic ideas, challenged, hesitating, yet deeply sensed, is actually quite subtle. For if it is true that the present idea of justice in America overlaps with and incorporates the ideas of equality (the law should be blind to social and biological differences) and ideas of autonomy (justice lies in the protection of my rights) then within the ambit of Islamic justice lie the central ideas of individuation (I must be seen as a a whole person whose social traits contribute to a distinctive pattern) and the fair regulation of permissible exchange (the presentation of men’s bargained-for claims within the limits set down by God). It is not rights that are at the center of Islamic justice, for no one expects rights to be recognized that are not granted by God or forcefully ensured by networks of obligation. Rather, what is central is the process by which one’s claims may be validated before the community in accord with local practice and the attestation of people who with their own eyes know what is so and will not risk their credibility as allies by refusing to say it.”
Thank you for your help.
#124 Del.
I’d generally agree with the first point.
On the second point, justice depends very much on who you are, your social status.
Islamic societies don’t judge you as an individual but as the memeber of a group, a catagory. Every group has it’s rules.
But, your quotes are very theoretical, justice is more than a concept, it is actual practice. When ”justice” is arbitrary, corrupt, when laws are contradictory & vague & incoherent, you are no longer talking about justice.
In Morocco, we had two systems of law – French civil law & tradtional Islamic law.
In theory, Islamic law was for personal status issues (marriage, inheritance).
A modified version of French civil law supposedly governed other areas but could not contradict Islamic law.
But this is only theory. The judiciary was not independent, judges were bribed, cases postponed indefinitely, charges were fabricated, documents conveniently disappeared, the gov.t could operate outside the law.
Of course, the penalties according to Shari’a law were not imposed – no head chopping or amputations, or stonings.
Criminal law was pretty much in a different catagory – almost everyone confessed during interogation.
#124 Del.
Going back to the first point, you know ”truth” is a very fluid concept in the Middle-East. I think that generally, Middle-Eastern culture/society has a very tenuous grip on reality. ”Truth” is not an objective concept, as the quote says, it is often an initial bargaining point. It is a tool for obtaining something.
This is a very complex subject – Middle-East culture is not particularly honest, lying is endemic & with many motivations – gain/advantage, honour, enhancing one’s image due to low self-esteem, concepts of politness, getting carried away by rhetoric, laziness since lying was easier, acceptance by others, often sheer self-preservation, in any case, people lied so much they often didn’t even know they were lying anymore.
Del.
Also relating to the first point, I could give you some very good anecdotes about personal relationships & ”truth” but it’s really off subject & I’m a bit lazy to start what would become a very very long post.
I remember del’s questions and agree that cultural semantics is an important, even crucial key to understanding beyond someone’s set of references. A grad school semantics seminar began with the question “what is a lie?” Five distinct answers emerged, all self-evident to those from a variety of the world’s cultures who proposed them. And all quite surprising to the rest. Even prompting spirited debate about “correctness”, which struck me as humorous, futile and a good example of how much we all had to learn and appreciate about each other’s backgrounds. Symbolic gestures and body language were just as eye opening.
semite, leo, max,
Frankly, you guys surprise me. Tell your sister or cousin she won’t make another decision for herself; that family males will tell her what she can do and not do, where she can go, with whom, when. For life. Or imagine living that existence yourself.
Next topic, please.
Paul S: “Frankly, you guys surprise me. Tell your sister or cousin she won’t make another decision for herself; that family males will tell her what she can do and not do, where she can go, with whom, when. For life. Or imagine living that existence yourself.”
I am afraid I do not understand what prompted this response. OK, next topic it is.
Semite5000
Excellent poem/lyrics to the Eagles tune.
You have great ability. A second career awaits!
Regards
Terry,
Thank you.