You can come to Israel as a tourist and tune out the conflict if you want, as long as you don’t stay for a long time, even on days like yesterday when a Grad rocket fired from Gaza struck the center of Ashkelon. Not a single person I spoke to mentioned it even in passing. They’re used to it. I’m used to it. I wouldn’t have even known about it if I didn’t have Internet access.
This place, though, can be existentially stressful because it’s so fiercely contested. I felt this acutely when roaming around the West Bank the other day with Dror Etkes, but even Tel Aviv—which is deep within Israel proper—is up for grabs according to some.
You may have heard about the Palestinian BDS movement. The letters in their acronym stand for Boycott, Divestment, and Sanction. They really ought to add another D for Destroy. Their goal—and they aren’t shy about saying so publicly even in English—isn’t peace between Israelis and Palestinians, which is what all civilized people should want, but the end of Israel.
Take a look at the video and see for yourself.
I worked for a British organization one summer and I was shocked at the rank hypocrisy of the BDS-ers (not sure if it was officially a movement, then, but they were boycotting Israel).
Really? The British boycotting over illegal occupations? Iraq? Afghanistan anyone? What about Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, Bermuda, the Falklands, etc…those have been going on for centuries! Colonialism for me, but not for thee? “Well, I’m not arguing in favor of British imperialism…” “Well then be consistent and boycott yourselves, as well!”
I often talk with (mostly) Europeans who wonder why (and complain that) Israelis are so obstinate and stubborn. Were I Israeli, I imagine I’d be very frustrated with calls to boycott my own country yet when other peoples are confronted with the colonialism, imperialism, occupation, etc. of their own, all of a sudden they recognize the value of dialogue, of compromise, of context, of history, and of remaining cool.
Israel isn’t so lucky to get that same treatment.
Does anyone have a list of companies that I (or we) can BUYcott? I would like to support Israeli companies and non-Israeli companies that don’t bow to this thug pressure.
So what do you make of this:
“Arab League foreign ministers on Thursday authorized the Palestinian Authority to enter into direct negotiations with Israel, but left it up to PA President Mahmoud Abbas to decide on the timing.
Jerusalem immediately welcomed the decision, taken at a special meeting in Cairo, with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu issuing a statement saying he was ‘prepared to begin direct and honest discussions with the Palestinian Authority in the coming days.’”
And is there anything in context here with the trip to Lebanon by the Saudi-Syrian delegation? There seems to be so much going on at the same time.
The real story here is why there is any story at all. I mean, why is world attention focused on a country the size of a postage stamp, a country you can barely find on a map? No oil, an insignificant population compared to the rest of the world, a conflict with very few casualties compared to other conflicts. Objectively, there is no story here. So why all the attention?
We all know the answer, don’t we, even if many won’t admit it?
Good video, by the way.
One may oppose or even loathe various Israeli policies and activities or have the same feelings towards Palestinian policies and activities, but BDS’ stand point has nothing to do with policies or specific behaviour of Israel. There are no changes in policy or in behaviour by Israel that could satisfy BDS supporters. BDS represents those who deny the legitimacy of Israel and do not accept the right of self determination of the Jewish people in its historic homeland, side by side with a Palestinian state. Denying to the Jews what is accepted as the right of all other peoples (Palestinians included) is nothing but unvarnished antisemitism maliciously hiding behind the vocabulary of human rights. They are doing their utmost to roll back any progress towards mutual and universal acceptance of the right of self-determination by Israelis and Palestinians and compromise on the ground. Reasonable people of goodwill on both sides need to fight BDS vigorously.
Asher.
And just how is BDS different from Fatah, Hamas, or any other political or religious group among the Palestinians? Where are the Palestinian counterparts of Peace Now, for example? It remains a fact that all Palestinian factions have as their aim the end of a sovereign Jewish state & this includes all the political organizations among Israeli Arabs. And, recent polling shows that a large majority of Palestinians support this policy. The Arabs cannot reconcile themselves to our presence on what they consider Muslim land. They want to turn back history, a return to pre-1948 in which there is no Israel. Nothing we do can change that, no concessions, no ”land for peace” & no two-state solution will bring peace. In fact, an independant Palestinian state will bring a larger conflict.
Wishful thinking will not change reality.
Unfortunately Terry there’s no point in discussing anything with you. You are totally fixed on seeing everything through your tinted glasses. You use so-called facts, skewed definitions and undocumented statistics loosely to suit your own viewpoint and apart from wishful thinking base your arguments only on secondary sources that you agree with. Since you don’t want to look at any other sides of an argument and wouldn’t recognize anything that might even slightly undermine your world view even if it hit you in the face, it would be a monumental waste of time trying to edify you. Bye bye.
Terry, I think you are painting with far too broad a brush in your Comment #6.
I am not sure what Asher and Terry are arguing about. BDS is another form of IDS.
Hi Michael, I hope you are having a productive and even enjoyable time. I wonder what people think as Israel terminates the Hamas rocket maker this morning in a Gaza air strike. Good for them. More than 400 rockets have been fired into Israel since they invaded Gaza to silence Hamas.
And I can only wonder what Israelis think of Rashid Khalidi’s new flotilla boat named “Audacity of Hope” or Cameron’s idiocy. Has there really been a compulsory call up of Gazan men between the age of 18 to 25 to form a new HIzb’Allah-like army? Is Quds on the ground in Gaza and has the failure of the steel wall allowed in a surge of Grad missiles like the one that hit the 17 story high rise in Israel?
It really is amazing how calmly the Israelis deal with the endless stress.
Be safe….
NYC
Asher.
What a cop-out. That was a really pathetic response.
Dikehopper.
No, I don’t think so. Here’s a link to RubinReports (Prof. Barry Rubin) who is very much a moderate, a reputable scholar, someone who has always supported peace initiatives (unlike me) & while I often disagree with his conclusions, I respect his objectivity & experience. Read the article & judge for yourself.
http://rubinreports.blogspot.com/2010/07/palestinian-authority-struggles-to.html
Terry, I cannot agree more with your first comment , that “BDS represents those who deny the legitimacy of Israel and do not accept the right of self determination of the Jewish people in its historic homeland, side by side with a Palestinian state.” I’m an 18 year old student about to begin my first semester of college in 3 weeks at GWU (in DC), and I know that I will be faced with a lot of different viewpoint regarding this issue when I walk onto my college campus soon.
I’m truly afraid what the landscape will look like 20 years from now without a peaceful resolution to this conflict, and I can only hope that there is a modern day Sadat and Rabin waiting to make their entrance into their arena. Because as many commentators have pointed out, it requires such progressive peace partners on both sides to combat the many challenges that the talks will, and have faced.
Though I have yet to start school yet, I have already connected with 2 future classmates of mine at GW: another incoming freshman who is Muslim with family in Gaza and the West Bank, and a rising junior who is also Muslim, from Saudi Arabia, and wears a partial hijab (something that takes a very strong person to do in a city like DC). Politically, we have a lot of things (A LOT) that we disagree on regarding the conflict. I think that the blockade on Gaza, while extremely unfortunate, is a necessary one. They believe that it is a siege that very much goes against international law and should be broken. I believe that it is completely unrealistic to halt building in east Jerusalem until a final deal is agreed upon, while they believe it should not only be halted immediately, but that it should be the capital of any Palestinian state.
I know that every reader of this blog is passionate about the Middle East and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but I didn’t mention my viewpoints to have them debated. Because despite our disagreements, many of which are held by vehemently anti-Israel activists, we have connected over our deep desire to see a peaceful resolution to this conflict. We both recognize the long and beautiful history of each other’s people, and perhaps more importantly, recognize that each side has made very significant mistakes over the course of the past several centuries. We could be on the opposite ends of passionate screaming matches, but instead, we’re trying to unite around what we care MOST about. That’s not who’s right and who’s wrong about issue X, Y and Z; it’s about having a peaceful resolution to this extremely bloody and UNNECESSARY conflict. They have invited me to break the fast of Ramadan with them, and I’m going to invite them to my Passover seder. It’s a small step, but small steps of mutual respect are the only way we will dispel hate and move towards peace.
Terry: “We all know the answer, don’t we, even if many won’t admit it?”
I am not so sure I know what you mean.
I read the Rubin piece. At the JPost I recently, essentially, said the same thing as Rubin says in his concluding paragraph. That the blame for lack of a peace agreement rests squarely on the shoulders of the Palestinians (ha, and you can guess what Johnboy’s reaction was).
My issue with your post #6 was over a different point. Unless I am misreading what you meant, you were saying that the goal of all Arabs, of all Arab and Palestinian factions, is to eliminate the state of Israel. I think that is an overstatement.
#13 Dikehopper.
You weren’t misreading my comment. If you think it’s an over-statement, please name one Palestinian faction of any importance that does not have the ultimate goal of eliminating the Jewish State of Israel. What do you think is the ultimate goal of the entire Arab League? Look at the Muslim bloc at the UN – what do you think their goal is? I’m sure you can find individual Muslims who believe in coexistence. But even the Israeli Arab organizations (but not necessarily all Israeli Arabs as individuals) seek an end to a sovereign Jewish state.
This is not a conflict about a few kilometres of land – this is a religious war, basically another front in the Jihad against non-Muslims aggravated by the antipathy of Islam towards Jews. Every effort is being made to delegitimize the Jewish state by Muslims & their Leftist allies in the West. To be sure, the ant-Semitic basis of this effort is disguised as anti-Zionism & tons of BS liberal rhetoric.
To Daniel Chicago.
Good, nice, beaufull. Can you and your two friends write a common letter to the largest paper in Chicago calling for two things, stop all fire now ! start talking Now! The Arab leguge has called for taling. the UN charter, talking about intnational law, demands that all disputes be settled by talking. Tell us here what will happen to that idea.
Sorry should be “has called for talking”
Asher, you must tell me about all those on the Palestinian side fighting BDS. I wouldn’t go as far as Terry, but the question has been how much Muslims will turn down the hatred, not how much they can turn up the good will. You see the point? Yes, Abbas is caught in a narrative of coexistence, but how much he means it is uncertain at best. Hamas is drafting young men into an army, not a peace movement. And Hamas is not politically threatened by moderates, but even more insane jihadists more firmly in the pocket of AQ or Iran. Even the Saudis have their new horse…
I am not as cynical as Terry, but I would like to know what signals you see otherwise….
Terry – I’m quite willing to let you have the last word with your post #14. Fair ‘nuff?
Dikehopper.
Fair enough. Believe me, I wish I were mistaken, it’s difficult to accept that another culture has such different values, a totally different world-view & psychology. Perhaps if had not lived most of my life in an Arab country, I would imagine otherwise the way most Westerners do.
Maxtrue, I don’t believe that comparing the sins of the antagonists leads anywhere but to more of the same. For the sake of argument let’s say that as an Israeli I believe that we are a lot nicer, our narrative is closer to the historical truth and they have no Peace Now movement. Worse, as Terry believes, they all want to annihilate us one way or another. Apart from giving ourselves a gold star, where does that leave us? Nowhere except for endless conflict and misery. Some people think that this is inevitable. Perhaps, but it certainly will not be an endless conflict because time is not on our side. The ingrained desire of a people for self determination, in this case the Palestinians, cannot be quelled. The only way we have been able to postpone things to date has been to use draconian and morally questionable methods in the face of their methods of resistance that include terrorism. This will not work in the long run. The price of holding the Palestinians down at all costs is undermining the moral health and democratic foundations of this country and destroying the tenets of our Jewish and Zionist beliefs. But let’s say that we discount the ethical and democratic implications and continue to sleep well at night. In pure realpolitik terms Israel will not be able, in the long run, to withstand all the pressures forcing it to let the Palestinians go. What will we do if our only friend, the USA, decides to dictate a solution. Do you think it’s that far fetched? I think that the majority of Israelis cringe at the thought of our becoming a pariah state. Worse, what happens if the Palestinians “see the light”, have a change of heart and forgo their own state, but demand to become full-fledged citizens of ours? How long do you think Israel would remain a Jewish and democratic entity then. It could remain Jewish only under an apartheid system. I guess that some have no problem with that either. The bottom line is that, in our own self-interest of remaining a Jewish and democratic state, no matter what the Palestinians or others say and do, we must talk to their leadership and reach a reasonable separation agreement. Right wing propaganda aside, there are Palestinians with whom we can make arrangements. And if we fail, at least we retain the moral high ground and can look at our children in the eye as they prepare to defend our right to self determination. Incidentally, we made very beneficial arrangements with our former mortal enemies the Egyptians (I know, they’re fomenting our destruction as we speak…). How about the Germans, who attempted recently to wipe us out, and are now “friends” second only to the Americans. Things change and we must, for our own sake, find and work with those agents of change among the Palestinians. It’s certainly not easy, but the alternatives are catastrophic. I accept the fact that there are many who prefer the blood and guts alternative.
asher,
you wrote, “there are Palestinians with whom we can make arrangements”.
Could you please provide some examples of Palestinians with whom you believe a reliable, permanent, two-state “arrangement” could be made? Would such an “arrangement” be accepted by non-Palestinian Arabs and Muslims, or even by other Palestinians? If not, then what use, in reality, is the “arrangement”?
Asher, I can assure you that self-determination is secondary at best for most Palestinians I’ve met. They care a lot more about destroying Israel than about their own well-being. The number of Palestinians that I’ve who would accept a reasonable, permanent (accepting permanence is a lot more important than you would think) two-state solution.
Forgot to finish that sentence, sorry. The number of Palestinians that I know of … two-state solution, I can count on one hand if I include myself.
Terry,
Which Arab country are you from?
People who used to watch wrestling soon discovered it was a charade.
I’m glad Israel responded today and hit Gaza, killing one of their commanders. It’s as if there’s a target list. And, the Israelis hit back.
As to the whole gimmick going on, now, the biggest fear is what will Obama do? And, of course, can he do it? An awful lot of political capital gets wasted on giving the saud’s something for all of their “political contributions.”
But the screaming? Seems there are problems right now. But they may have something more to do with Iran, than with anything happening in Israel. What a waste, irak. What a waste, afgahnistan.
With the One Voice Palestine organization in Ramallah supporting a summer camp named “Shahida Dalal Mughrabi”
, will the One Voice Israel organization express even an iota of criticism regarding their Palestinian counterparts’ dubious decision to support a summer camp dedicated in honour of a fanatic, violent ideologue who accomplished nothing whatsoever in her short, pointless and contemptible life, save if one considers murdering 37 non-belligerent civilians and among them 13 children some sort of accomplishment? Answers on a postcard.
Asher,
You spoke for me. I don’t need to add anything. Thank you!
semite5000,
Ok. Here again, then:
Could you please provide some examples of Palestinians with whom you believe a reliable, permanent, two-state “arrangement” could be made? Would such an “arrangement” be accepted by non-Palestinian Arabs and Muslims, or even by other Palestinians? If not, then what use, in reality, is the “arrangement”?
#25 Michael Totten.
I made aliyah from Morocco about 5 yrs ago.
Here’s a link to put the ”peace process” in perspective.
”Leaders Lied, Jews Died. Why have Israeli leaders been lying to their fellow citizens about the Fatah/PLO?” (Historical & Investigative Research – 10 July, 2007)
by Francisco Gil-White. http://www.hirhome.com/israel/leaders_lied.htm
Terry, how is life for Morrocan Jews?
#32 Ali.
Generally pretty good. Of course, as a community, we hardly exist.
For example, the city I lived in has 250 Jews in a Muslim population of approx. 1.5 million. Most of the Jews are old, over 70 yrs. old, for most, their families left long ago, to France, Canada, Israel. There is one functioning synagogue, one kosher butcher, only a few still live in the Mellah (ghetto), most live in Gueliz (what used to be the French part of town). They are socially quite isolated but no one bothers them. The community will be extinct soon.
In Casablanca, there are still about 2500-3000 Jews, mostly very wealthy. Most are in business, and while there are still some young people, it’s an old community.
There is no real persecution, minor incidents. There is almost no social inter-action with the Arabs. It’s kind of claustrophobic but people travel a lot to Europe.
Personally, my situation was different. I had mostly Muslim friends, I was very much ”integrated” so to speak. But, I found recent developments not to my liking, particularly the rise of Islamism. After 9/11, the atmosphere changed a lot, there was a lot more anti-Semitism. To be blunt, I couldn’t listen to the BS anymore & figured it was time to make a move.
Alors, me voila, a Eilat.
هل تستطيع أن تقرأ هذا؟
Did you speak Hebrew?
Would you feel safe walking around with a kippah on your head?
Ali.
Sorry, I don’t read & write in Arabic, I only speak ”darija” (Moroccan dialect but with a mixed Fassi/Bidawi accent). My Hebrew is very basic, normally here I speak French & English.
I’m not religious but yes, of course, Morocco is safer than Paris, actually, much safer. That’s why I didn’t go to France or Spain.
What causes Jews in Europe to feel unsafe? Is it the Muslim immigrants?
#37 Ali.
Oh, absolutely. Aside from what I read, that’s what recent immigrants here tell me as well as my own family, I have a lot of cousins in France & Spain & boy, are they sorry they went to Europe. Many of my cousin’s children plan on leaving, some coming here, some to America & Canada. Probably 1/3 of the appartments in my building are owned by French Jews (they’re not really French, they’re Moroccan or Algerian) planninng on coming here soon.
Where do you live? You must be in my time zone, no?
I’m sotty to say, but Dror Atkes is the same kind of cat as the BDS people. He holds almost the same views as they do – my oppinion
Terry, are there a lot of Francophones in Eilat? Till now I was absolutely sure I’m living in most Francophone of all Israeli cities (Netanya, that is). Is Eilat now poised to take first place?
Rabbit256.
No, I think Netanya gets most of the French now. My immediate neighborhood just happens to be very French. Of course, Eilat gets a lot of French tourists, you hear French as often as Russian these days on the beachfront. I wish we’d get a lot more French, maybe the food would improve, I’m dying for a good croissant or pain au chocolat, even a decent baguette. Boy, could we use une vraie patisserie francaise!
@ Del:
Whether or not there are truly moderate Palestinians is a moot point. As Asher pointed out, this is more about Israeli society and Zionism and less so the Arabs. The demographic bomb still exists whether or not the Palestinians moderate or not. The toll that the occupation takes on Israel’s sense of morality and its standing in the world exists whether the Palestinians are moderate or not.
Terry,
Of all places, why Eilat?
Terry, thank you very much for sharing.
Why is anti Jewish bigotry so intense in Spain and Portugal? Is it continued baggage from the inquisition, 1492, and the perceptions that the Jews backed the Moors? Is it the accusation of being Christ killers and the killers of prophets (for muslims)? It is sad that anti Jewish sentiment in the Iberian peninsula seems worse than in Morocco.
Has there been any improvement in anti Jewish bigotry in France? With Sarcozi’s election, and the realization that the terrorists who want to murder Jews also want to murder French people and other muslims?
MJT, I find many BDS movement supporters straight forward and up front. Many support a one free plural democratic state solution where all Israelis become Palestinians and all Palestinians become Israelis. Many of the non Palestinian members of this movement are very idealistic and mean well. I have no doubt that they see a united diverse Israel/Palestine similar to the United States of Israel/Palestine or the EU of Israel/Palestine.
Perhaps a better question for the BDS movement is how to help the Palestinian people best. How does imposing sanctions on Israel help Palestine? Damaging to Israeli economy reduces Palestinian GDP and harms the Palestinian people. This is the largest question I have for the BDS movement.
Free trade, free investment, free business collaboration with China has helped the Chinese people, including the Tibetan and Uighur Chinese people. This is one reason the Dalai Lama and Tibetan freedom movement oppose sanctions on China.
India has repeatedly offered free trade, free investment, work/student/tourist visa agreements with Pakistan, despite the fact that until a few years ago Pakistan’s ISI and Army were supporting Taliban and AQ linked networks that were attacking India. Similarly, India, the biggest supporter of the Dalai Lama and Tibetan people, has promoted free trade/free investment/free business collaboration and tourist/work/student visas with China in part because India believes this is the best way to help the Tibetan people. China is replacing America as India’s largest business partner.
America has free trade, free investment, and tourist/work/student visas with Vietnam, partly as a way to help the Vietnamese people.
Greece and Turkey have free trade, free investment and tourist/work/student visas despite the conflict between them.
South Korea has repeatedly tried to encourage trade/investment/business collaboration and tourist/business/student visas with North Korea as a way to help the North Korean people.
Shouldn’t the BDS movement encourage free investment, free trade, free business collaboration and tourist/business/student visas between the world and Israel as a way to help the Palestinian people?
Why does BDS oppose sanctions on Palestine and Gaza while supporting sanctions on Israel? Isn’t this hypocritical? Why not support free trade, free investment and free labor for all? End all sanctions against Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.
It is precisely because of this rationale that I think Israel should encourage free trade, free investment, free business collaboration and large visa quotas for work/business/students/tourists with respect to Gaza and the West Bank.
What am I missing?
Why is it that whenever I bring up the Dalai Lama and Tibetan people so many friends of Palestine become so angry. Many of them repeat the old Chinese communist accusations that the Dalai Lama is a CIA/Mossad spy [if they are Pakistani they say the Dalai Lama is a RAW/CIA/Mossad spy] trying to impose a feudal imperialist system of exploitation on the Tibetan proletariat?
“Why is anti Jewish bigotry so intense in Spain and Portugal?”
Because the people living there are nearly as antisemitic as you are, anand.
“I find many BDS movement supporters straight forward and up front.”
In short, anand once again expresses his fervent, unmitigated support for the extinction of Jews. All of his disgusting, smarmy lies cannot change that fundamental fact.
“What am I missing?”
Brains. Honesty. A sense of decency. Any desire that Jews shall not be annihilated. Must I go on?
Terry, no but I used to be. I was born and raised in Saudi Arabia, but I’m of Palestinian descent. I moved to California a few years ago because there was no future for me in Saudi Arabia.
Anand, I will say this again, most Palestinians do not care about Israel’s borders. It is about Israel’s existence. It really doesn’t matter what happens to themselves as long as they work towards Israel’s destruction. Just as you said, sanctions would hurt the Palestinians badly. Free trade for all would benefit everybody, which would be great for the BDS, except that it benefits Israel, which is intolerable to them. They don’t believe in the one-state solution because they are idealistic democrats, but because it is the best to Dhimmi-fy them and drive them away.
correction: best way to Dhimmy-fy them (them being the Jews)
Ali.
I was never in Saudi Arabia (obviously) but when I lived in Casablanca in the 1970′s there were a lot of Saudi tourists, they made a rather horrendous impression, very uncouth, a bunch of sex-obsessed drunks. The Moroccans hated them, cheated them royally. It left me with a bad impression as well plus of course what I’ve read about the place. I think you made a good move.
Anyway, I just got back from the coast, a new cafe opened, very nice place. It’s tourist season in Eilat, the beachfront is jam packed with kids on vacation.
But, it’s late & this old guy is tired but we’ll chat again.
The lies of the Liars. Anyone ever notice how all of these so-called Palestinians look like white people from Bulgaria? Doesn’t it seem that anything Palestinian is Satan’s work? With the PLO, Muslim countries have created an obnoxious terrorist society. PLO propaganda is the biggest assault on world historiography that western civilization will ever witness outside of communist propaganda.
James Just, please apologize for slandering the Palestinian people.
The extremists within the PLO are a pin prick compared to the threat from global Takfiri extremists [AQ and Taliban linked extremists.]
James Just, you’re wrong about Palestinians looking white. I’m pretty brown myself.
James Just;
you’re wrong. Period. As an American soldier I hope you’re not American.
Seb
I cannot support the national home of a people that has rejected our Lord. That is why I side with the Palestinian people
“I mean, why is world attention focused on a country the size of a postage stamp, a country you can barely find on a map?”
I asked that question at dinner the other night, of folks who are liberal and wondering why the Jews just don’t give up some land! I said, all borders are created this way. Shall we disband the United States and give the land back to the Native Americans? Why don’t we complain about old King Hussein bombing the Palestinians out of “Jordan”?
They were silent.
It’s anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism. It serves the political needs of some people very well. Our enemies.
semite5000,
You wrote: “Whether or not there are truly moderate Palestinians is a moot point.”
It is not a moot point at all.
Anan: Damaging to Israeli economy reduces Palestinian GDP and harms the Palestinian people. This is the largest question I have for the BDS movement.
Hasn’t it occurred to you by now that the vast majority of Palestinian ‘activists,’ whether violent or not, don’t care about the well-being of the average Palestinian? Is it not obvious to you???
SO much brainpower dedicated to such a simple problem. The Jews stole Palestine, and it must be returned. This is why we are not interested in settling for a homeland on a few crumbs of stolen Palestine. They have used fake biblical history to justify their theft, defended it with a powerful holocaust weapon, and committed massive ethnic cleansing in 1948 and 1967. So yes, Helen Thomas is absolutely right and you should apologize to her
The BDS movement is so powerful in Spain and Portugal because 10-20% of the population are descended from conversos, those who converted out of Judaism for economic reasons. Tomas de Torquemada had a maternal Jewish grandmother, but that didnt prevent him from leading the Inquisition. Many of the worst anti-semites have Jewish descent. It is believed that Ahmadinejad is descended from the Tabourjian family, of Jewish descent
@ Del,
I’ll grant you that it’s not a moot point if you believe in the sincerity of the PA, and that the PA can or wants to make a final status peace agreement with Israel.
I don’t believe that’s what they want.
In other words, I’ve given up on finding a serious peace partner. That doesn’t mean that Israel throws up its hands and ends all peace talks, giving the Arabs the propaganda points they crave. Israel needs to negotiate with whomever is willing to do so, even if the other side is barely going through the motions. In the meantime, Israel should start to lay the ground work for the painful concessions it will eventually have to make. Again, it’s not for the benefit of Arabs, but for Israeli society and the future of a strong, Zionist, Jewish majority democratic state.
In any event
Palestinians are a mixture of arabized people. In the 19th century, the Ottomans resettled, among others, circassian muslims from the Caucausus into southern syria after losing various battles and territory with and to the Russian empire. I’m not sure about muslimised Bulgarians but would expect that as well. For readers interested in Michael Totten’s subjects, the book, A Modern History of Soviet Georgia by Lang (published in early 1960s), has some discussion of the 19th century fighting in the Caucausus. Others are likely the descendants of europeans from the crusader principalities. Some are descended from Egyptian fellahin, or from what would now be Syrians who arrived in the 19th and 20th centuries. Some are likely descended from Jews, from Persians, from Byzantines…The bedouins are more purely ethnically arabs but then they weren’t there prior to the islamic conquest…
@ James Just:
Your argument that Palestinians are all light complexioned is just as ignorant as those who argue that all Israeli Jews are “white Europeans.” Don’t you have eyes???
semite5000,
I don’t believe in the sincerity of the PA, nor that it can, and nor that it wants a real peace with Israel. They are the slow jihadists, with the same goal but slightly different strategies, contrasted with the fast jihadists of hamas, the “palestinian” wing of the muslim brotherhood.
Closer to the bottom line: a withdrawal to the 1949 armistice lines or anything similiar, is simply a step toward the destruction of Israel, both in the eyes of the Arab League and the OIC. Their appetites will be whetted rather than sated.
Without a serious “peace partner”, nothing serious should be offered to the Arabs.
I do find it interesting that the Arab League has “approved” new direct negotiations by the PA with Israel, as the “Palestinian people” are a 20th century construction of that Arab League. Leo, are you reading? However, Israel should be “negotiating” directly with the Arab League and no one else, rather than with the constructions of that Arab League. Any such negotiations should only be serious if the Arab League is serious. And no, I do not believe the Arab League would ever seriously consider accepting any “right of existence” for Israel. If the Arabs want a real, permanent and just peace, then they need to prove it. They flunked Oslo. Spectacularly.
@ Ali,
I think it’s safe to say that most of us here are very curious about you because we’re not used meeting truly moderate Palestinians like you. I can tell you that I’m not confident that I’ve ever met a Palestinian who convinced that he or she really accepted the idea of a two-state solution. Most still insist on the Right of Return and hope that they can eventually dominate Israel demographically. I’m not saying moderate Palestinians don’t exist; it’s just that I haven’t met them and believe me, I’ve tried. It depresses the hell out of me.
At the risk of getting too personal, what is it that made you so … moderate?
P.S., I just remembered a Palestinian I knew, at least online, who was very sympathetic to Israel. He was a Muslim apostate, but of course many non-religious “communist” Palestinians have also maintained their opposition to Israel, so losing his religion doesn’t explain everything …
Del,
I think we agree on things more than we disagree. I was being too cavalier about any sort of unilateral withdrawal from (most) of the West Bank because we’ve seen that bad movie twice: Oslo withdrawals and Gaza disengagement. It would be irresponsible in the extreme for Israel to repeat a similar mistake, thus opening almost all of Israel proper to rocket attacks.
But, it’s also clear that Israel can’t afford to look like the spoiler. Creative thinking is required.
semite5000,
That creative thinking was supplied by Leo a month or two ago: the appropriate “negotiating partner” is the Arab League as a whole, not any of its constructions nor individual members.
Del,
Circssians are not Palestinians. They keep their national identity. There are two Circassian villages in northern Israel, and there is museum of Circassian culture in one of them. You can find in these villages signs in Circassian language – written by Cyrillic letters, actually. Most relevant point – Circassians are loyal to State of Israel, serve in the IDF, like Druse, and most of Circassian men are choosing military as profession.
As for descendants of Crusaders among Palestinians – certainly. There is the whole spectrum of skin colorations among both Palestinians and Israeli Arabs – from white-skin blondes to dark-skinned descendants of African slaves.
Well Semite, its a combination of reasons. In Saudi Arabia I had obviously never met a Jew. I can never say that I was an anti-semite of any sort, but I did believe in certain stupid ideas such as “the Israel lobby controls congress and the media”. But then I watched the media and found that the lobby wasn’t doing a very good job at controlling the media.
I also made many Jewish friends and I compared the discourse among them and in Israel with the discourse in the Arab world and media. I asked myself why Israel is so bad? So, I found out that it wasn’t. Then I studied the history of Zionism and European Jewry and the Enlightenment.
“please apologize for slandering the Palestinian people.”
As soon as you apologize for relentlessly pimping antisemitic annihilationists like Hamas and Hezbollah. In other words, never.
As far as Palestinian skin coloring is concerned, Amin al-Husseini – the genocidal Nazi ally who founded the PLO – had red hair and blue eyes.
Also the war between Hamas and Fatah and the Hamas rocket attacks against civilians didn’t help their image very much. But what I hated the most was suicide-bombings. What they say sends chills down my spine and its a lot worse when you hear it in Arabic because of the emotion infused with it. It is disgusting.
Ali, have you thought about visiting Israel? I can promise you one personal guide
I’d love and I hope to do it as soon as I’m a U.S. citizen. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like that will happen until 2012.
Where do you live and what’s the nicest part of Israel? Do you know of any Arabic-speaking Jewish communities in Israel?
http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/07/31/the-defamation-league/?xid=rss-topstories
Once again, Klein is an embarrassment…I wonder how Israelis read this.
Much of the argument against the ADL is based of course on the reality of moderate Muslims and the benign nature of those funding the GZ welcome center. Quite amazing…
Similar arguments here about the Palestinians are similar.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-02/the-anti-defamation-leagues-ground-zero-mosque-hypocrisy/
And Beinart piles on. Yes, many Liberals are in denial of the war going on. It is really quite amazing.
Asher, I am loath to tell Israelis what to think. In the end, this will be a decision for Israelis. My opinion, is just that. I think the central argument (which you accept above for the sake of discussion) is that the majority of Palestinians support the destruction of Israel or the take-over of Israel through a demographic struggle over time (should the One State Solution become reality).
Given that, I would opine that if the above characterization is correct, then one must prevent Palestinians concentrating weapons and launching attacks until the time reason prevails. ISrael must work with the Arab League who started this mess by encouraging Palestinians to fight instead of negotiating in good faith. The Arab League has more to lose in terms of credibility should they publicly show their darker intent. Of course, you reach out to all pro-peace individuals (make sure they really are) and continue to play the game with PA leadership who to date says two opposite messages at the same time depending on the audience. Eventually, you hope enough Palestinians get tired and move to center.
I understand that the global politics after 60 years of waiting for this will likely react to the stalemate before Israel can break down the militancy. Certainly, some moves both dumb and smart increase the militancy. But there is another clock running. The world is facing the deeper threat of what is really behind the Palestinian conflict. Iran and their proxies as well as Sunni terror in the form of AQ and others target Democratic Liberalism. WE ARE ALL THE TARGETS of the radical edge of Islamists. Craig was far more direct.
So in truth there are two clocks connected. The question is why the West has not connected the two clocks. Well, for one, IDS and neostrasserism forbid this. The way the left spins the Ground Zero Welcome Center is a deliberate attempt to deflect from is realization. What punishment is the West laying down for a refusal by Muslims to moderate their message? I am not talking lip service. Obama describes Khalidi a moderate and we know all about Barak’s pick of Pastors. Nope, instead American Muslim groups defend (using Freedom of Expression) their right to encourage Shariafication of our society and a denial about the extent radical Islam is encouraged by their silence or even vocal support. Obama himself, threatened to take no action on Iran unless Israel stopped ALL settlement activity including those at Gilo. This may strike you as a harsh critque, but I hate waiting for something to happen in force before cranking up the threat volumne.
In short, the importance of advocating peace is essential to our moral high ground, but it is not a replacement for behavior essential to survival. I am sure Leo and Paul will concur.
This may seem contradictory which the left often tries to show, but it is not. On one hand it is nice to engage like Daniel and I know S-5000 is no dove, but it is another more important point to show just how serious we take threats to our way of life. We are in a war and the vast majority of Muslims who supposedly support peace and tolerance could stop it tomorrow. But that would mean really siding with the West and even Israel against the forces of Islamists. For instance, what punishment do the Palestinians have for causing terror and death for 60 years stemming from their refusal to accept a Jewish Israel’s existence? What cost have they charged the world including Israel? Did Israel warn the PLO over decades that failure to negotiate peace would result in annexations? Jordan and Egypt certainly listened.
I am suggesting that tolerance and understanding does not mean changing the anthropological hardwire of altruistic cooperation and punishment. Many on the Left fail to see that at this very moment, it would be insane to advance the idea that actions have little consequence. The driving factor in global noncooperation following the end of the Cold War is the mutual exclusivity of radical Islam and its allies. NK, Syria, Iran, Chavez, Castro etc. do not want to cooperate. Intellectuals on the Left call this resistance or differences in national interest etc., but it cannot be that in reality. That is what I meant by the similarity of national interests in advanced States. We ALL seek peace, freedom, prosperity, openness, human rights, democracy. That is what we ALL pretend to strive for. We won. So why would we EVER back down and now call conflict, “differences in opinions”? It is really a difference in values. After Stalin, Hitler and OBL, one would not reasonably predict that with China and Russia on board the rhetoric of Democracy and Human Rights, we would excuse the Islamofacists and their allies. And we should not grant “Freedom of Expression” to Muslims anywhere near where radical ISlamists slaughtered Americans until the “moderate” ones here assimilate and accept the concept of “American” and defend the intrinsic values of the very country whose liberty they enjoy.
We are not stupid and I am sure we can get many “moderates” off the fence by simply showing them that reality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IofpsHOosE
Spencer has an interesting rebuttal over at JihadWatch about the people in this video and I would have to agree that many above have stated in other venues they cannot ever be fully American because that stands in opposition to their beliefs. I think this in part, explains what I am saying.
Ali,
Generally the Jewish Arabic speakers tend to be from the older generation, however there are others. During a high school program (long time ago!) I lived with an Iraqi Jewish family and naturally both parents spoke fluent Arabic, and two of their older sons spoke Arabic as well. Should you ever visit Israel, I recommend searching out some Sfardic/Mizrahi Jews and then asking if they or their parents or grandparents speak Arabic. As an aside, I recall one morning walking down the street in a Jerusalem neighborhood and hearing a few old Jews men sitting on some park benches and chattering in Arabic. So, they exist!
You also might want to see if you can meet this guy: http://www.ishmaelkhaldi.com/
I’ve met Ishmael (Ish) before. Nice guy and very interesting. He’s often in California, so it might be interesting to try to meet him.
Ali: Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like that will happen until 2012.
Bummer, ‘cuz the world’s gonna end that year.
You think S-5000? Now is that Mayan or Notrodamusisan? Frankly, I’m surprised we haven’t gone completely nuts already….
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/08/20108120421136940.html Syria
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/missile-plan-sends-iran-a-clear-message/story-e6frg6so-1225900197186 Iran
http://palestinenote.com/cs/blogs/news/archive/2010/08/02/hamas-launches-decency-campaign-in-gaza.aspx Hamas
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/08/02/the_only_man_who_can_stop_the_mosque_madness
Mind boggling as usual. This writer is so desperate to find a Muslim not advocating burning down churches that he overlooks simple answers to his questions. Read this and ask yourself what the writer has been smoking……
Maybe Michael should expand his clinical observations of IDS to include BDS and the various lesser conditions that weaken an individuals mental immune system…..
Semite, Its should happen mid-year, so I’ll have to some time
How is Israel going ti annex the West Bank, Max?
“Why now, nearly a decade after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, has anti-Muslim sentiment on the right gotten so virulent? There are clearly a couple factors at work — primary season, the election of Barack Hussein Obama, the recent failed attacks in Chicago and Times Square — but perhaps the most decisive is the absence of the most powerful voice for tolerance among American conservatives.
That’s right, I’m talking about George W. Bush.” FP
Just plain silly.
Israel isn’t going to annex the West Bank, just a few areas already made clear to the Clinton administration. Anything beyond that, the Israelis gave their word they would either pay for or exchange with Israeli land. I am not sure what you are talking about.
Israel actually gave back all the land of Gaza despite the terror. In the West bank, only historical areas for Jews were protected in the new map Arafat rejected. As for Golan, Syria needs to wake up, smell the coffee and negotiate.
“what I hated the most was suicide-bombings.”
Ali, as a Westerner, far removed from the violence, the thought of rockets and mortars landing in my streets, timed to explode as children came and went from school, would provide all the justification my response required.
With a laser’s focus.
Armed with every tool in my arsenal.
Nothing in life fuels my anger more than targeting life’s most innocent, it’s children.
“The Arab League has more to lose in terms of credibility should they publicly show their darker intent.”
With whom, Max? The “international community”? The UN’s “Human Rights” rogues gallery? Until Arabs show the courage—and I NEVER underestimate the degree of such courage the Alis of the Middle East must possess—to deal with their intractable extremist elements, our grandchildren will be having this discussion.
Assuming enough is left to discuss.
“overlooks simple answers to his questions”
Simple answer, maybe impossible to achieve: commit to peaceful co-existence.
If we are in a war, we must fight it to win it; everything we value rests in the balance.