Hi everyone.
Well, Everything Takes Longer Than It Takes (see below)… but we are making decent headway behind the scenes. We’ve gone from the OH, WOW! phase to the HOW THE HELL DO WE DO THAT? phase, which can be a little daunting. But we soldier on!
Above are some early test renderings I have done to play with some of the overall look of the place. Now here’s something interesting: everyone views this City-State differently. Some people would like it to be a collection of Greek buildings in a verdant valley. Some want it on a tropical isle. Some want a Rivendell-esque hidden valley surrounded by waterfalls, and some people even want a medieval village in the middle of a forest.
Well, the good news is, in time all of these — and more — will be possible. We can provide as many ‘skins’ to this experience as there is demand. Right now, though, the first iteration of Ejectia will probably be something like the sky city you see taking rough shape before you now. I could tell you this is because of some lofty philosophical underpinning, but the real truth is mountains and clouds are relatively easy on the render because they don’t soak up memory like trees do, and these buildings are very complex. So if you like this look, that makes me happy because I do too and I’ve been working hard on it. But if you had something else in mind, please be patient. And by that I guess I mean please be more patient than you already are.
Moving on with the progress report: it looks like about time to get started on the main item we offer at Ejectia: those “expertise essays.”
I mentioned in the prior entry that we would start with a proposal, in order to not commit you good people to a lot of work we may not be able to use right off the bat. I think it’s time to start accepting submissions for those proposals.
This proposal should be very simple: one paragraph on what it is you hope to write about, and a second one on why you are qualified to do so. Remember, this is not a university research paper… your qualifications may be something as simple as you’ve been doing it for twenty years. We’re not looking for credentials – heck, college professors have those and some of them are prize idiots — we’re looking for experience. In Ejectia, real-world skill and the wisdom learned over time count for way, way more than a piece of paper.
So, if you have something you want to contribute, we really, really want to hear from you. Here’s the standard disclaimer:
Your contribution of any material, whether in comments or otherwise, grants to William A. Whittle, Aurora Aerospace, Inc. and their affiliates, a perpetual, royalty-free, non-exclusive, worldwide license to use, sublicense, reproduce or incorporate into other material all or any portion of the material posted, for commercial or other use.
All that says is that we retain the right to use that material in any way we see fit. You of course are free to use your own material in any way you choose.
I have to tell you that with all the work we’ve been doing, this is the part that excites me the most. I’ve been waiting to look over proposals since I first got the idea in the shower, a few moons ago. If you have something to say — and I know you do! — you can send a two-paragraph proposal to Library [at] ejectia [dot] com. (Bloody spambots!)
Man, I cannot WAIT to see what you folks are going to come up with. Birdwatching, quantum physics, chocolate pie recipes — it’s just going to be cool.
Thanks to all involved with this. Looks like it’ll be pretty neat.
Special thanks to (the Man in the) Masque for the work getting the gears and levers put together.
It does look VERY cool. I haven’t been able to comment nearly as much I have wanted due to technical diffs. that made me so, so sad. (Dare I say, depressed?) But now I’m cured and I think that this rendering and all the possibilities, present, future, heck, even past (perhaps best) are thrilling! Bill, and everyone who works so hard on this with you, I salute you.
I have a friend whose finance is a social worker for a school in the state. The social worker group has been recently disheartened looking at the results of their project on reducing bullying in schools. Being an engineer (problem solver) has led me to think about that topic a lot lately, and how to apply what I have learned from Steven den Beste, and our illustrious Bill Whittle and my understanding of engineering control systems of what could be done to address the situation. Seeing as how I was a meek child at school, and how I was bullied, and what effects it had on me and my growth, this topic has really hit home. I think the basic ideas that I have come to seem (to me, at least) to have some potential to really help in this area.
My proposal would to be to write an article from an engineering/control system perspective that would provide one explanation of what the basis of bullying is, why it exists, and what needs to be done to reduce the problem. Unfortunately I’m not a great communicator of the order of a SDB or a BW. But do to the importance of the subject and its broad applicability (international relations), I would like to give it a try, and if all that comes out of it is to increase wise discussion on the subject.
Ron – WI
Aaaannnd – We’re off!
Ron – WI: Sounds interesting & maybe like something you and the SW group could co-author! I’d say: Get with them, knock the whole proposal together, and dump it on Bill’s head!
- MuscleDaddy
Would anyone be interested in a post about homeschooling? I am homeschooled, so I am something of an expert about it. Just wondering.
Would anyone be interested in a post about homeschooling?
Many people would be — especially from the student’s viewpoint. Just covering the issues of how you were “socialized”, where did the “curriculum” come from, how much work it seemed for you’re teachers (parents?), and what was the interaction with the local school district and state, if any, would interest a lot of people.
this is my first post, but i’ve been visiting the site VERY regularly. I was initially introduced to this website through http://www.FortLiberty.com. there used to be an awesome forum there, but something happened and the webmaster decided to throw the whole idea away. this is one thing i’d like to see ressurected in ejectia. maybe like a mix of wikipedia, facebook/myspace, and a forum. everyone could have their own main page and could link to other people and essays. then the forum could be used for debates and open questions. overall, i guess i’m not sure what ejectia actually is?
H-ey, those upper clouds are gonna obstruct our view of the stars m-an.
It’s okay with me if it is with you tho…Bro… Brother…
Brother of another mother ;~)
I have a feeling that the lower clouds will magically part about the time there are buildings in the valley below worth looking at. Think “The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag”.
I’m digging the mountains and clouds renderings thus far, Bill. They’re cool and crisp.
Holy…WoW!!
I want to know when do we get to virtually climb
the ‘orthanc’ to see what our 10,000 foot
perspective will be!
That sure looks like home to
me Bill.
Thanks to all of you working in the back office.
1. Yes, I love the current “sky” skin.
2. “Skin” choices later – you guys are AWEsome!
Thank you all for the work that I know is going on behind the scenes.
3. My books – Christmas will arrive when Christmas arrives. No worries.
To the chatterers (?) hanging out – I am swamped, but reading every single post – maybe this weekend will get to comment on some of the past two weeks that have just taken me to a higher plain. One in particular – The Monster – THANK you for introduction via link to speech at Naval Academy by Heinlein. I am light-years behind the reading of most of you but my list grows happily long. DQ no ly – I finally got the recipe for the Friendship Cake from Dear ol Auntie. If you want can e-m, or post here later, or wait till we have a “kitchen” – you choose.
All have a great weekend and again – behind the scenes folk – thank you. This project is going to be (that word again) – AWEsome!
jayh801, it’s impossible to say today what it will be, but there will undoubtedly be similarities to the GOOD parts of all of those things, with some differences so as not adopt the BAD parts.
But a lot of that will have to wait until we get some basic infrastructure in place.
The Monster
Dang! I have a copy of that around here somewhere. Something to do with jewelers rouge and somnambulism if I recall.
Thanks to all involved for the new screenshots. Way cool!
Svin
Ah, but the altitude will be all that much better for clear skies stargazing. Less atmospheric interference. And imagine how clear the moon will be. Stunning…
I like the current look. I wonder what the arena will look like, that’s where I’m waiting for. Article proposals are all well and good, but my ability to control any eloquence I might have is limited, heh. Anything I’m good at (whatever that may be) kinda gets adapted for use on the fly.
Is it just my monitor or does the port tower lean about 2 degrees to starboard and the starboard tower lean 4 degrees to port?
I know it’s nitpickin’ but after 30 some years in the trades I confess to being positively anal about plumb, level and square.
does the port tower lean
That’s because we know an upcoming earthquake is fix it up.
It’s in the script, m-uhuhaa-a . . . ~~~~
is gonna fix it up
Somebody slap me!
MuscleDaddy 2:31 PM
That’s an interesting idea, I hadn’t given it much thought, since they live a long way away, and most social scientists don’t speak engineering (and I certainly don’t speak social scientist/liberal very well). I will float the idea, and see what comes of it. At the very least I would ask them to proof read / critique it.
USBeast,
Did you just say that you were plumb anal?
Hee! Hee!
I like the sky city! Who knows, when other skins become available, I may change now and then, but so far, I definitely favor the sky city.
does the port tower lean
Yes. As a matter of fact, both towers lean just a little. Blame The Forthcoming Statue.
I think perhaps those towers aren’t really leaning, but only appear to be so because of the sloped ground they’re on.
The towers are definitely leaning. But it’s Dougman’s fault.
The name “Sky City” has a lot of competition. In my neighborhood, there is “Acoma Pueblo” Sky City which claims to be the oldest continuously-occupied city in North America, with habitation dating to the 12th Century or earlier. The number of continuous occupants made it down to about 12 some time ago, but the 2000 US Census lists 2,802 inhabitants of the Acoma Pueblo and [part time residents living on] off-reservation trust lands.
Are you sure the towers aren’t
leering at Dougman’s forthcoming statue?
Hey Y’all,
I been known to list port and starboard(sometimes at the same time!).
Nuthin wrong with that.
Svin
Oh Yeah,
Hey Bas!
BW,
You can make it a jungle, island, desert, mountain, valley and all that without a bunch of skins.
Just make it a big island with all those environments.
Simple.
What would REALLY be interesting is what you put in the Sky.
No D4, I said “positively anal” and I meant it. When it comes to plumb, level and square, “anal” is a positive thing.
The proper meaning for “anal” in this case is “meticulous” and I am that. When I find myself no longer capable of being that, I will sell my tools and run for office.
USBeast,
So true. Plumb,square and level. I have rebuilt so many houses where the previous occupant had no clue, it wore me out.
The devil is in the details.
Best Regards,
Svin
Well, I am excited enough about all this to stop lurking! Hello all!!
First thing I thought of when I saw the tower on the splash page was, Space Elevator.
Dana
Don’t panic!
The towers aren’t leaning. It’s a view looking upward from just barely above the cloud level. When you look up at tall buildings, they appear to get closer together, just like any other parallel lines do. (Think of railroad tracks converging at the horizon here.) When you see this with two eyes, your depth perception triggers your brain to compensate for it, but in a flat picture, you don’t have that cue.
Don’t be surprised if another picture, taken from a slightly higher vantage, with a ‘longer lens’, reduces that effect somewhat.
Thanks Svin.
I’d love to stay and chat, but I’m supposed to be packing for the big family vacation.
See you all in a week…if I survive.
If I don’t, build Ejectia plumb, level and square.
My best to all,
Ye Olde Beastie
Ok, Beastie.
I get it.
No puns on plumb, level or square.
That’s gonna be hard but the quatroman can sink to the challenge.
Embrace Chaos for me!
Hi, Dana.
I hope those towers have navigation lights on them. Don’t want the FAA to make you take ‘em down.
I love the buildings! I’m alread having a hard time trying not to speculate what the blue sphere at the base of the center building is all about. My theory about the leaning buildings is that it’s a function of the wide angle lense effect of the modeling software.
And is that lichen I see peeking out from the rocks that aren’t fully covered by snow? Where’s TattoedInt when ya need him?
One of basic needs of any enterprise is quality control. My idea is to start with articles and reports from outside sources that are of interest to people doing posts, and fact check them. Then if that proves workable to fact check the articles written for this site. I want to be a member of the team that fact checks, I am a ack of all trades master of none, but want to participate.
My plan is for there to be a “bin” where I can pick up a piece to be fact checked make a report alot like footnotes, even to putting notes in a revised version and then placing it in the next bin. Someone else can pick it out of that bin and fact check it again, placing it the “2 fact check bin” and if it is controversial it can be done multiple times. People would be able to read the original and see the revised “fact checked” versions. The hard part is just checking the facts and not fisking the article, but it is something I would like to do.
Thank you for your time.
Blaine
Ron – WI: I was bullied in school (very small guy then, you wouldn’t believe so now), so I know what it’s like. My boys, however, I have had to try to make sure they didn’t BECOME bullies, because unlike me, they are friggin’ giants.
There have been a lot of studies done, especially in the ’70s and ’80s, which tended to indicate that bullies typically suffered from insecurity, and turned to bullying to feel better about themselves. Do you have a different theory? If so, I’d really like to read it. Unfortunately, I don’t have a whole lot of faith in the Public Schools coming up with programs to deal with that kind of problem.
Good call Blaine, the power of the net is the army of highly motivated fact-checkers. No reason not to combine it with a good fisking of a poor set of ‘facts’.
daddyquatro – The visual I got from, “plumb anal” was really bad. eeewww…
Dougman, since you asked for it: *Slap*! Just remember, it’s your fault!
Left Coast Bruce – Don’t worry, I’m sure Bill included whatever technology necessary to keep aircraft at bay, er, um, away.
I was on the receiving end of bullying myself, and it was my experience that the minute you stand up to them, they crumble. That says insecurity to me, Wayne B.
These lofty highbrow ambitions are all well and good, but we need to propose another structure that hasn’t yet been ventured.
We need a suitable undersea grotto, with portcullis, from whence in time of great need we can UNLEASH THE KRAKEN.
Very pretty! Could use a dragon
On Forgetting the Obvious by Robert D. Kaplan.
I just came across this essay and thought it would fit very well with the ideas and philosophy here.
I built a house with a two foot level, and it shows (grin). But I’m still living in it after 15 years, so what the hell. “Embrace the chaos.” -D4… at least it’s not Pee-Wee’s Playhouse.
BTW plumb refers to a radius. A tall enough building will reveal what observation of smaller increments does not resolve – that “straight up” from a given point on a sphere is unique and necessarily diferent from “straight up” even just a few feet away. The plumb-square-level we find so comforting hides that from our apprehension because our senses don’t spontaneously resolve angles so small. Unless we are appreciating a well-turned calf.
If you can frame a 24×32 foot garage within a half inch of the drawing, you’re a seasoned professional. Tolerance in this sense refers to variation within acceptable limits. But truly plumb and square? Heisenberg giggles. In my struggle for accuracy and perfection I am constantly learning to let go when the nit resists picking.
I think the skins are great. I love the feel. I also believe it reflects the way I feel about this idea.
One does not light a candle to hide it under a basket, but rather to put it on a table for all to see. It reflects the self esteem we should all have for wanting this. Simply choosing to be who we apparently are. (Reading posts here proves this to me.)
The contrast in acceptable tolerances between the carpentry trades and say airplane manufacturing are worlds apart. Hammers and nails don’t work out if you’re building the Hubble telescope. Thank goodness we have tools of such fine resolution. But even with Hubble we experience a limit, a range of error. That appears to be the case in all human endeavor.
Wow, looks great already…
I’m excited!
Good morning.
Chai Indian Spice is todays
brew.
We had mucho rain again during the night, hope we’re not growing mold!
I was the recipient of unwanted attention (bullying) in school.
I rewarded my attention giver by putting her in hospital.
Of course I paid by being kicked out for 3 days, to which my father told the principal we all have the right of self defense.
Fighting should be like shooting, taken seriously.
The discussion on plumb-square-level brings to my mind the need to include context. My experience as an electrician is that trying to induce plumb and level after the fact in a construction which can tolerate a certain lack of plumb-square-level while still maintaing functionality is frustrating at the very least. So, in context, what would happen is, after the building was built we would run steel conduit in ten foot lengths and discover running the conduit straight and level, attached to a building which is neither inevitably looked terrible. Yes, our conduit was straight and level but viewed against the existing structure it looked awful. In context, our work looked crooked, not the structure, so it was necessary to compromise, to adjust our perfectly straight pipe to match the existing (not straight) building. This happened often enough that it became clear we would rarely be able to do our work to the standard we wanted, without it looking bad, in context. One of the more difficult aspects, installing lights on a large ceiling, was to attach the lighting so that when you looked up, the lighting looked square and straight. Snapping a line over a span of more than 20 feet was difficult, but a deviation of little more than a quarter inch, which didn’t seem like much up close to the ceiling, was glaringly obvious when viewed from the floor. Finally less expensive lasers solved this problem, by allowing us to run straight over the entire span of the buildings ceiling, while still allowing deviations to compensate for the inaccuracies of the wood construction.
Perfection is the goal, but I’ll settle for mere excellence.
Hi daddyquatro.
Dana
Dana, well put and thanks.
@ WayneB from June 15, 2007 9:49 PM
>There have been a lot of studies done, especially in the ’70s and ’80s, which tended to indicate that bullies typically suffered from insecurity, and turned to bullying to feel better about themselves. Do you have a different theory? If so, I’d really like to read it. Unfortunately, I don’t have a whole lot of faith in the Public Schools coming up with programs to deal with that kind of problem.
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the feedback. That’s the general idea – from a control systems standpoint it is about control (insecurity is about the belief of (or the fear of) not being in control, and is obviously related). Its a fine point, but I think it is an important one. I don’t believe that self esteem is crux of the problem, Control is. When we have control we are happy, when we don’t we are not happy. I pretty sure that it is just as simple as that. When the bully gets rewarded with attention, and people telling him he is good, and his behavior is hurting people, that just reinforces his belief in the soundness of his tactic.
I agree with you that most public schools are probably way too liberal – which is why I suspect these social workers are disheartened. Which is exactly why I’m interested in writing this article, and why I’m not particularly interested in working closely with them (they are probably not interested in a conservative engineers viewpoint). However since their lack of results has got their attention (real feedback can be a bitch), this would be a good time to throw them a life preserver. Maybe someone will be willing to grab on and try to understand. Even just one would be a start. Every engineer knows that the ultimate feedback of a design is – “does this work?” Engineering can be very stressful, because when a design doesn’t work, everybody knows who was in charge of that aspect of the design.
Plumb and level. Wow! don’t get me started. I spent 43 years in the machine trades, many of which were involving very precision work. Many years were also in the toolmaker section of that trade, which included various dies, molds, forming tools, jigs, fixtures, etc. The tolerances needed in the machine trades seem nearly impossible to people in other trades.
The truth is that even within those trades, there is a huge difference in the requirements of tolerances. I have been called a liar by some when telling of some of the tolerances that I have worked in. The truth is that in earlier years, I worked in shops with tolerance ranges running as high as +-.015. In these same shops some of the tolerances were as close as +-.005. I thought that was tight.
Then I entered some of the more precision machining shops that held tolerances to +-.001. I thought I had arrived, until I found that there was far more precision than that, such as +.0001-.0000. To shorten the story, I have worked in tolerances as close as +.000050-.000000 in jig boring and jig grinding environments which required 68 degree climate control 24/7. I have been called a liar, to my face, when talking about this. Some here may doubt it, but I know there are others lurking around Ejectia who are experience in this.
Some of the inspection tools used in these environments are calibrated to closer than .000007 from the US bureau of weights and standards.
I said all that to say this. There is no such thing, in any environment that we know of, that is perfectly plumb or perfectly level. Nothing perfectly round or perfectly flat. It’s all in the eye of the beholder, and this is governed by said beholder’s type of training and developement.
I finally learned to relax about the whole thing. That happened after age 55, when I decided to build a house. I was tremendously hindered, and couldn’t hardly do it, because my habits pressured me to try to make a precision thing out of my house. Overkill cost me tremendous amounts of time and money. A skilled home builder could have done it far better than I could, at a lot less cost.
There are several lessons here that I had to learn the hard way. We are all necessary, and our combined knowledge can make Ejectia great.
Wow, there are a lot of masons here..
Hi Otto. Thank you and you are welcome.
I was bullied as a kid because I was the smallest kid in my class, was very geeky, and didn’t know when to back down from a fight (I refused to let the bullies win). You are of course right that bullies suffer from insecurity and there is no way that the public school system can fix it. I got my bullying to stop because I went into the martial arts and learned how to fight – once you put a few of them down the rest leave you alone.
Does that fix the problem, no. What does fix the problem (in my opinion) is a combination of things, First: Parents need to care enough to be involved in their children’s live and hold them responsible for their actions. We have such a victim culture going on that now even the bully is a ‘victim’ so we should feel bad for him.
Second: The entertainment industry (which I will soon be part of) needs to quite using the excuse of “It’s just a game” “It’s just a movie” and take a little more responsibility on what they are making. Grand Theft Auto is a prime example of making an irresponsible product. So are most gangster rap albums. Anything that feeds of the bottom of society is not good. Our kids need to be taught to think critically about entertainment, politics, cultures, and ideas. That comes from education.
Finally: Education that is REAL – it is very easy for the education system to promote ‘feel good’ fixes about self esteem, multiculturalism, and how everyone is special, but kids aren’t stupid and telling them how special they are without requiring anything out of them helps lead to an attitude of entitlement. Instead the education system should focus on the basics of education – history, math, languages, arts, and physical fitness. These five areas would give kids the opportunity to find where they fit which would help reduce insecurity because they would have a sense of belonging.
History – every child in this country should learn in-depth American history from middle school through high school. How can they appreciate what they have if they know nothing about it? This would also cover our government system and legal system so that they will be informed enough to understand how it works and how it came to be. There should also be world history and then electives of regional history.
Math – Math should be taught from a practical sense. If a child has no idea what .0625*(x*2) =15 is good for then math needs to be explained in a way that make him think of it as money. You have 15 dollars, each item cost 2 dollars and then tax is 6.25% – how many items can you buy – make it so they UNDERSTAND how is useful and relevant.
Languages – Primarily English. Computers have ruined many peoples ability to spell. I don’t know how many times in my job I have seen accident descriptions like this “Hurt riht rist falen on ground” which when translated to English is “Hurt right wrist falling on ground” I will completely ignore the grammatical errors and lack of punctuation. The ability to communicate effectively is paramount to the survival of any society and the manipulation of language is the greatest weapon that those who are malevolent can use. I read a report that said that 80% of American males don’t read a book after they graduate from high school – 80%! It also said that over 59% of households don’t have any books in them – including a bible. We don’t need computers in schools to teach kids how to read and write – we need books and paper.
Arts – all of them. Music, Drawing, Painting, Poetry, Creative Writing, even Philosophy and Religions. All of these are essential to developing the child’s sense of self and many of them are not offered in schools any more due to budget cutbacks. In the area I live in, they cut the arts budget because they wanted to give the money to the football team which essentially told the artists that the jocks were more important.
Physical Fitness – All grades, every semester. Split the classes into different levels so those who are athletic and gung ho can do their thing and those who are on the low end can be brought along at a slower pace. But everyone should be involved in some form of physical fitness. In fact, this should be done in all classes – three levels of classes, one for the slower kids, one for the average kids, and one for the very smart kids.
In the end, all of these can be used to bring kids along and allow them to learn about themselves, as long as teachers don’t try to indoctrinate the kids into a particular viewpoint and the kids are allowed to explore while at the same time are required to actually do work and pass exams that are more than multiple choice. It also requires parents who don’t allow excuses for bad grades and demand better from the schools than what they are getting now.
Sorry this is long, I’ve taught martial arts and my mom was a teacher. It infuriates me that I have met people who have no idea that there was a Korean war, thought that Vietnam was in the ’80s, and thought that the three branches of government were Republican, Democrat and Liberal. Yes, all of these have happened to me. These same people though knew all of the judges on American Idol and who won over the last 5 season.
I LOVE the idea of a bullying entry. Also homeschooling. We have one on stone soup cooking that I like. But in order to make these happen, you’re going to have to send a two paragraph proposal to library@ejectia.com!
We want to see EVERYTHING! The more varied and diverse, the more interesting the library is.
Also, regarding the ‘skins’ issue raised earlier… I guess I wasn’t fully clear, because as suggested, there will eventually be many different ‘locales’ on the giant island nation of Ejectia (which is smaller than New Zealand but which should give you an idea of variety).
‘Skins’ is more of a technical term to describe the fact that a Sky City Library, a Lagoon library, a Forest library, etc — will all take you to the same library, but the presentation of the files will look different (even though they are the same files). So it’s not ‘just’ a skin — it really will be seperate communities and you will be able to inhabit whichever one you want.
Keep the entries coming!
Bill, I have spent so much time reading here now I forget even how I linked to you. Oh, that’s right, it was Allison Taylor’s essay on The Atlasphere. http://www.theatlasphere.com/columns/070615-taylor-ejectia.php
THANK YOU, Bill, for the oxygen.
Instinct:
I’ll go you one further than that. Language is even more important for cognition than for communication. In order to think at a level appreciably higher than that of raw perception, human brains classify those percepts according to conceptual common denominators and differentiating characteristicts into hierarchies of concepts. Inherent in that process is assigning aural (and eventually written) symbols to the concept.
When one is incapable or unwilling to identify concepts in a non-contradictory manner, his thinking will be fuzzy at best. I do not think it’s coincidence that academic achievement in the US is lowest in the subculture that uses slanguage including such mind-benders as ‘bad’='good’. A mind that has to constantly expend effort to reconcile such contradictions is far less likely to have enough spare capacity to master high-level thinking.
I think we’ve all felt the frustration of understanding something quite well, but not being able to communicate it. What we do not understand fully, we have no chance to communicate. (If you prefer, you must be able to communicate the idea to yourself before doing so to another.)
When people say I’m a fuddy-duddy because I reject neologisms that contradict established meanings, I realize that they’ve been so brainwashed by pop culture, teaching that such rigor is “uncool”, that they don’t realize that by embracing sloppy language, they’re consigning themselves to sloppy thinking.
On bullies, from The Devils of Loudon:
“There are many people for whom hate and rage pay a higher dividend in immediate satisfaction than love.”
Well said T Monster,sounds like you are describing some of our finest politicians, some of whom deserve a hot tar and feathering at the very least. So what do we do with pols that have loose lips during a time of war and offer aid and comfort. I mean is it too late really? Personally I don’t think it is too late, but we near the edge of the precipice. I would recommend Grassfire.com or Firesociety.com to try to fight on and I am sure there are other .coms out there. that we could link to or recommend. Is this part of what we want to do here?
Later W
Leftfoot, the main purpose of Ejectia is to make us better citizens, who in turn can make our neighborhoods, cities, states/provinces, and nations better, and therefore make the whole of Civilization better.
It seems to me that something a good citizen of a republic should do is vote in a way that will improve Civilization as a whole, and his nation and any subdivisions in particular. While I don’t think Ejectia will get directly involved in partisan politics, I won’t be at all surprised to see some Ejectians who have gotten personally involved to share their experience influencing governments at various levels.
Then people can use that to do things like help get people on the local school board who will fight the dumbing down of government schools. I also expect resources supporting the people who have made the economic investment of sending their kids to private schools, or home-schooling them.
The principal reason I’m interested in Ejectia is precisely that I think that the big picture isn’t about winning a Presidential or Congressional election, a theatre such as Afghanistan or Iraq. Those are just battles in a far larger struggle, which has been going on about a dozen millenia.
It’s about building up the people who “get it” so they can have as much influence as possible over those who don’t get it yet, and defend against the outright enemies of civilization. It’s about getting as many people as possible to understand why certain basic principles are fundamental to the function of an economy above (if you’re lucky) subsistence hunting and gathering with simple hand-made tools, and that every time they are violated, the fabric of society is weakened.
If we do that, the elections will take care of themselves.
Maggie | June 16, 2007 7:59 AM
Re: mucho rain
Are you in Texas?
Re: hospital
You GO girl!!!
I saw a few articles the other day by Rob Bussard of interstellar ramjet fame, talking about his new fusion power generation idea , and his trials with getting govt funding. It made me think of the idea of perhaps some part of ejectia could be visualizing what mankinds journey to the stars will look like – sort of building our own mythology for the 21st century.
Since that seems non sequitor, here’s why…
Back in High School when I saw 2010 Odyssey 2, I knew I wanted to be John Lithgow when I grow up- the guy who built Discovery.
I have been a tinkerer with machines for a long time. Muscledaddy and I spent most of our youth under the hood of one car or another or in teh shop making something.
I was a nuclear engineer on carriers in the navy, (I wore a red shirt on the Enterprise and lived to tell about it) and have been doing various engineering jobs (simulation, software, communications) for almost 17 years.
I now work in UAV’s which is at least aviation – so I’m getting closer to space…
anyway,its a half formed idea at this point – talking about building and running big machines is my particular interest – I’m hoping somebody else wants to join in – and maybe we’ll see all the other things talked about, engineering and not, that we’d need to move to the stars.
Maggie | June 16, 2007 7:59 AM
Re: mucho rain
Are you in Texas?
Re: hospital
You GO girl!!!
Posted by: Don | June 16, 2007 7:10 PM
Don:
Yep. East Texas, surrounded by lots of wet piney woods.
I didn’t know about the hospital bit until my father had talked to the principal the second time round.
Seems as though I may have done some damage to her wind pipe.
/cough cough
I would hope that someone trained in physical defense would describe the quality of fierceness
a few anecdotes (the quality)
Just this week my wife gave our miniature Dachshund a bath, and in the drying off process rubbed her back and forth — this brought forth a growl, and as it did not stop, a full attack with all teeth showing ensued
gentleness from us was then in full display — and she weights just ten lbs
===========
so I wonder how it is that such fierceness has been subdued in the human animal, particularily the female
======
my granddaughter Autumn was in the fifth grade and was refusing to go to school because a boy was teasing her unmercifully — I said, Autumn, when I was in the second grade, I teased a girl, Darlene, unmercifully until one afternoon after school, she turned and hit me a devastating blow, crushing me beyond belief.
The next day Autumn’s mother reported her visit, with Autumn, to the principals office — Per her mother, she creamed him in the cafeteria line
no more trouble in the fifth (and six) grade
Look what you miss on a Saturday afternoon.
The Monster is on a roll!
Epistemology and macro-political philosophy.
Go, Monster, Go!
Bill, I love the shining city. It’s bright, it sits high above the clouds of emotion on a rock-solid foundation of logic, reaching ever upward and lifting our hearts with it. And best of all, it’s futuristic the way I used to envision futuristic until George Lucas made the future look all dirty. (Whatever became of your science fiction film?)
About all I am capable of is coaching basketball…
Which among the great minds here doesn’t amount to much.
But I’d like to be a loyal citizen…
“About all I am capable of is coaching basketball…” – Nigel
Oh ya, that doesn’t amount to much at all. Just teaching people the discipline needed to build skills they didn’t know they had. Giving people the experience and the wits to know when to take a shot and when to defer personal glory for the sake of the team.
Teach people that if something’s worth having it’s worth earning, that a lot of talent and a little training can get it’s butt kicked by a little talent and a lot of training.
Teach people that playing by the rules is the only way to know who the winners are, because it’s the rules that define the kind of game it is. Teach people they can often learn more about themselves by how they handle losing than how they handle winning.
Add to this the fact that some of your players will choke up with tears decades later when teaching their own kids to play as they remember the occassional kind word and encouragement from you. Ok, that stuff you may never hear about, but it happens.
Yup, can’t see how any of that will help people later in life.
Bwaahahhaa! Welcome to Ejectia!
Isn’t that what happened on Star Trek between Kirk and Kahn?
Actually, I was going to suggest that giving everyone Martial Arts training – the type that’s heavy in the discipline and control, and makes it clear that fighting is only a last resort – would be a good start on reducing bullying. Having control over yourself is helpful in many areas. However, I agree that after the bullying starts, the only way to stop it is to paste them in the puss.
Monopticus, sounds like you’re following the same road as me, though you’re a bit further on perhaps. I’m progressing through an aerospace degree, at the uni of glasgow, in order to try and do my part for the space program. My fondest wish was always to stand on another planet, and when I realised it wasn’t going to happen, I figured the best way to give “never” the finger was to make it happen myself.
I tried astrophysics first, but… MAN is it pointless. Sorry for any astrophysicists here, but does it not rankle you that you could spend your entire life working on a theory, only to publish and find someone else has been working on a theory which directly contradicts yours, both are mutually exclusive and humanity will likely never be able to prove between them, or even if either of them is right. And no material benefit will ever be gained irrespective.
Utterly destroyed my motivation for the subject. Engineering on the other hand, you can see results, and know you’ve done something worthwhile.
Plus, engineering is firmly grounded in rationality. Scientists can mess around with “ignoring statistical anomalies” or politicizing over definitions in total contradiction to the actual scientific method, but engineers rarely have such a luxury. The consequences are usually… impressive. I once heard a scientist describe the difference between scientists and engineers as “Engineers hate surprises, we love ‘em” This is quite likely true, from an engineers point of view surprises are usually bad: “Ah, the wing has just fallen off! Surprise!” “Oh, the engines blown up! Surprise!” “$�”*(@^%$! There’s an asteroid headed directly at us, the wings have fallen off and all the engines have blown up! I hate surprises!!!”
The UN mandate on how likely global warming is down to man-made causes? The wording put it as along the lines of “Highly likely”. I read a footnote somewhere which stated it would have been worded even stronger, as “Almost certain” but, and remember this is a coalition of scientists, discussing a scientific matter with import to the entire world, but the chinese delegation objected.
Correct me if I’m wrong (but politely), but shouldn’t scientific definitions be independent from human preference? Isn’t the entire foundation a search for what IS, rather than what we’d LIKE? Some scientists these days seem more inclined to advocate that far from a spade being a spade, it’s really a fruit. The definition would have been more strongly worded as stating it’s a banana, but the chinese delegation resisted…
Wow, not only a rant, but off topic too. Um, bullying. Don’t think it only happens to kids. Challenger blew up because the engineers were bullied into not vetoing the launch strongly enough by their managers. It was coming up to contract renewal time, y’see…
Elydo, we’d need to wait for a better time and place to address this more fully, but one correction I would volunteer is that it was coalitions of mostly politicians and bureaucrats that produced the UN IPCC ‘Summary for Policymakers’ reports that have been in the news recently. A scientist never needs to say ‘almost certain’ because he can point to reproducible results to do the talking for him. A politician says ‘almost certain’ and your first priority should be hiding your wallet.
Ideally, politics may operate via consensus, but science doesn’t. Anyone saying there’s a consensus on all this is playing the politician. Scientific consensus is an oxymoron. If it’s science, it doesn’t depend on a consensus, and if it depends on consensus, it’s not science.
It’s one thing to argue that science should be conducted according to the scientific method. It’s another to ask that politicians be held to the same standard. Not that I wouldn’t like to see it, but if we want these two groups to stay off each other’s turf, we need to keep them clear ourselves. (I hope this came off as polite but I admit having my own pet peeves about politicians and scientists alike forgetting what their day jobs are).
Good morning all.
It’s a quiet Sunday here,
the rain has ceased for a bit.
Although there was lightning
playing in the clouds a bit earlier.
Discipline emanating through
body language in many cases will discourage a lot of potential bullying.
Carrying oneself tall, upright with self respect has a way of
letting the one eyeballing you
to not go there.
Elydo, welcome to the club ..both engineering and ejectia.
Unfortunately global warming is going the way that many govt sponsored research projects do, everyone says its all man made, because the funding is available for people who can “prove” its man made. I have a friend who calls it the “research industrial complex”. Bussard’s article talked about how he had trouble because he didn’t pursue the tokamak “magnetic containment” route and in govt sponsored fusion research “everybody knows” you HAVE to have magnetic containment (thats why we hear it in sci fi all the time , too) even though it has never worked and always failed for exactly the same reasons. (Conspiracy theorists believe the Soviets “gave” us Tokamek back in the 1960′s so we’d fail)
Brings to mind an old Lakota Indian saying… “when riding a dead horse, dismount”..
but often that’s not what happens when politics and money are at stake. (as a rule – there are always exceptions of course, war is usually a good motivator to make things work right)
Kind of like why every NASA space transport proposal looks like Apollo or the shuttle, because “everybody knows” thats how you go into space, and no other idea will get funded. (and we got Apollo, which WAS a clean sheet of paper from Gemini and Mercury because of the cold war space race – it probably would never have happened without the Soviets to compete against)
As for global warming…
Of COURSE temps are changing , we’re uncertain as to how much and for how long until relatively recently. Of COURSE CO2 is a greenhouse gas, but greenhouse effect mostly means temps are stable, as well as “warmer”, just ask anyone who has camped in the desert about 80 degree swings from night and day, in the desert there is little water vapor, the most important greenhouse gas. It CAN get out of control, On Venus, the temps are balmy in the mid to high 800′s and only differ on average by four degrees from winter at the poles to summer at the equator, but then, our atmosphere ins’t made primarily of sulphuric acid and we’re half again as far away from the sun.
I watch planetary science and there is heating on Neptune, Mars and Jupiter, too. That points to a significant solar contribution. If you strip away the politically motivated data fudging, anthropogenic sources account for somewhere between 2% and 60% of the total effect (we don’t really know how much) we’re not sure how it will change if we change CO2 output, we don’t know how high it could go, we don’t know what else is going on…there are a lot of unanswered questions. Way too many to take a drastic policy action… but none of which are politically useful, and thus will not likely get asked. Let me do to the data what often happens in politics and I can “prove” trees cause global warming.
I remember reading a transcript from a congressional hearing…some Critter said “we don’t debate gravity and we don’t debate global warming, its settled science” …unfortunately, there is no such thing, science is never “right” it is always just less wrong than it was. We debate gravity everyday…the Hubble telescope starts a new debate on gravity with every discovery. E does not equal MC2, it “almost” equals MC2 , and it’s close enough to build nuclear weapons, but if we want to build something else, we’re going to have to have another debate on science to find out more exactly what “E” does equal.
and as another strange aside – in astronomy as a career field- the cosmologists/astrophysicists are the top of the heap, because their field is the most arcane , even though no one is likely to see anything from it for centuries. Planetary scientists are considered the bottom rung, and they are the ones with potential answers to global warming, increasing natural resources through mining, population management through colonization, etc – all the solutions to real problems.
Its funny how the world often works for exactly opposite the reason you think it does – thats what engineering has taught me.
Good luck!
* all units in US or British Imperial
Rickbert, thanks for the encouragement. I’ll try to keep up…
monopticus,
RE: scientific funding,
I can’t remember exactly where I saw it, one of the anti-GW documentaries I think, but one of the contributors made that point. If you want a grant to study the squirrels of Central Park your proposal will have a much better chance of approval if phrased as “to study the effects of GW on the squirrels of Central Park”
Yeah, I’ve heard about that warming happening on other planets in the solar system, too, and how it may be related to sunspot/solar flare activity. Two points I think may be germane here:
/
1) When I was a kid, they were talking about the possibility of another ice age, because the world was cooling. Then, in the early 70′s, there was a major surge in sunspot activity, big enough that it was all over the news, every night, the way global warming is today, complete with worry about what the long-term effects might be. By the late 70′s/early 80′s, they were starting to worry about global warming. To me, the leap of logic wasn’t rocket science. I was in my 20′s, but still pretty much a kid in a lot of ways, and that seemed cut and dried. Global cooling, then major sunspot activity, then global warming. QED.
/
2) Recently, I saw a video on YouTube, of all places, where British scientists went about systematically debunking the anthropogenic theory. They showed how they studied core samples to determine what the mean temperature was at various times in the past – and I’m talking paleontology here – and they found the same cycles of planet-wide warming and cooling. For those that occurred after the advent of writing, there are correlating written records, though, of course, those people had no clue what they were witnessing, only that winters were getting progressively fiercer/milder. There were also astologers’/astronomers’ notes in the late Middle Ages and during the Renaissance that recorded observations of activity on the sun. The correlation between warming and increased sunspot activity was just too clear to be ignored.
/
Another avenue they investigated was any possible correlation between human activity and warming/cooling. What they found was a direct slap in the face to the anthropogenesis proponents: During the most pollution-generating periods in recent history (the Industrial Revolution, World War II), global temperatures were dropping. Noting that, during the same periods, GNP in most countries was rising, they went back to earlier periods and examined financial records. Even before the Industrial Revolution, business was always better during cooling cycles. Then they checked our current cycle. From WWII to the late 60′s, most countries were in an economic boom. When that sunspot activity I mentioned earlier happened, the US, at least, was hit with one of the worst recessions since the Great Depression.
/
To me, that, too, seems cut and tried. Just think about your own reactions to the seasons. During the hottest part of the summer, most people start feeling draggy and really don’t want to do much of anything. (I note myself that even air conditioning doesn’t seem to help much.) Then fall comes, and with it that brisk, cooling air, and all of a sudden we’re bursting with energy.
/
My own personal conclusion from all this is that anthropogenesis is closer to the 2% end of that range Monopticus mentioned.
/
End of rant. ;D
The one who pops a bully in the nose does a great service to at least two people.
The one that does the popping gets a bully off their butt.
The bully begins the process of learning that their bullying will result in uncomfortable consequences for his/herself. Bullies are 99% cowards, and will almost always back down.
monopticus,
“E does not equal MC2, it ‘almost’ equals MC2…”
Thanks for the education. I forgot all about that since school, and I would be very interested in learning more. Stop on over at The Lounge sometime. Unquiet Mind is buying the next round.
If this is any indication of the discussions that lay ahead, we are all going to have a great time. And if we are not too careful, we will all be much wealthier and wiser for the experience.
The Monster-
I’ll go you one further than that. Language is even more important for cognition than for communication.
Here’s a nice quote about that.
“It is a profoundly erroneous truism, repeated by all copy books and by eminent people when they are making speeches, that we should cultivate the habit of thinking of what we are doing. The precise opposite is the case. Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them.”
-Alfred North Whitehead, in An Introduction to Mathematics, 1911
It is the naming of such an extended collection of operations that allows us to think about it effectively — to think about one label rather than the lower-level details of which the labeled collection consists.
The Monster-
It’s about building up the people who “get it” so they can have as much influence as possible over those who don’t get it yet, and defend against the outright enemies of civilization. It’s about getting as many people as possible to understand why certain basic principles are fundamental to the function of an economy above (if you’re lucky) subsistence hunting and gathering with simple hand-made tools, and that every time they are violated, the fabric of society is weakened.
If we do that, the elections will take care of themselves.
Exactly.
monopticus-
anyway,its a half formed idea at this point – talking about building and running big machines is my particular interest – I’m hoping somebody else wants to join in – and maybe we’ll see all the other things talked about, engineering and not, that we’d need to move to the stars.
I like stars, and space travel.
Maggie | June 16, 2007 8:12 PM
Ah. East Texas. Green. Piney woods.
As opposed to West Texas. Desert. Cacti.
Still and all, any Texas is better than no Texas. I wouldn’t mind being in the Hill Country some where around Austin myself. Too much good music going on there!
Why you’re only a hop, skip and a jump from Colorado. Come on up! (just wait until I’m back out there)
BTW: If you would be so kind as to send some of that rain to Nawth Carolina, all us would appreciate it!
JMC
The trick about global warming, as far as I’m aware, is that on a global scale changes made over a course of a few years then take many more years to affect the climate. A ballpark figure I’ve been told is that it takes about 200 years for any change to manifest.
If this is the case, and it would appear reasonable, it means all these “Cut carbon emissions” measures which are so in vouge these days are pretty useless, any change that’s going to happen over the next two centuries or so will happen regardless of any measures being taken today. Instead, given that global warming IS happening on some scale, whether due to man’s influence or not, we should be trying to work out measures to adapt to the changing climate.
Anyone seeing that being screamed about? No? Might be because that would involve telling the masses what they might not want to hear, that harsh measures might be necessary.
Global warming was an issue when I was still in school, the argument given by my geography teacher still holds true today; take a look at how much gunk a volcano spews out, per day, compared to the entirety of man’s contribution, tally up how many volcano’s there are erupting in the world at any one time, then see if you can still blame mankind for global warming. A god and salient argument, but it does miss one aspect I only found out about a short while ago, that the global emission and uptake are finely balanced. Greenhouse gas emissions through natural causes are generally in the same order as greenhouse gas uptake by natural causes. The argument of the article I read this in was therefore that human emissions were the straw that broke the camels back, but something about such an argument just doesn’t hold true. If humans have been adding a relatively tiny addition to the global paradigm, over the course of a few decades, not even centuries, how is it we can still be responsible for the ‘sudden’ onset given the aforementioned point of any changes taking centuries to manifest?
Another interesting point I encountered recently was made by the author John Ringo, on his site. He mentioned during one of his articles that there is a problem with all of the models currently used for predicting climate change, namely that they don’t work in reverse. This is a very good point, we know what happened in the past, we can use this as a test to see if the models predicting catastrophe in the future are reliable. All of them fail this test, starting from today and running them backwards, none of them give what actually happened. Starting in the past and running them forward to today, with the readings taken throughout that period of time, they all fail, in some cases showing the onset of another ice age already. I don’t know about you guys, but here in scotland, SCOTLAND, we’ve been wanting AC for the last few weeks.
Don,
West Texas is semi-arid; one step above desert. They’ve got cacti and mesquite and tumbleweeds.
Thanks for the shout-out, Maggie. I wondered why it was all cold and dark on that other thread.
I’m thinking of applying for the post of Village Idiot. Is it spoken for?
S. Weasel,
Let’s just say that it looks like the upcoming presidential election; there are a number of people vying for the job with no clear front-runner.
Is there an opening for
Beserkers?
I’m not qualified to talk about the science of global warming, but I understand the mindset of believers. It’s not hard to know them when you live in a community where every other car is a rolling billboard for politically correct ideology. Hysteria, conspiracy theory, and BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome) walk hand-in-hand in this crowd. It’s all of a piece, and they would gladly march modernity off a cliff given a chance. This might be the first time in history that a civilization embraces cultural suicide as an end worthy of consideration. Or maybe it’s just the logical outcome of the socialist nanny-state. Peter Singer would have us all euthanized like so many unwanted mutts at the pound. The psychosis of self-loathing must be fought because the logical outcome is too horrific to contemplate. Idiot ideologies eventually die of thier own lies and false assumptions, but not before millions are sacrificed on bonfires built by human stupidity. It’s all self-inflicted when logic is absent and courage fails to defend that which is noble, truthful and good. Old story, new chapter. The fight is worthy of our best efforts. Let the three-hundred who defended Western Civilization at the Gates of Hell provide the inspiration for our cause. “Give them nothing, but take from them everything.” Metaphor has its uses. Stand forth and be counted. Ad Astra!
daddyquatro | June 17, 2007 2:42 PM
I’m assuming you speak from experience while the last time I was in West Texas was many years ago. I stand corrected.
Mesquite is good. For smoking meat anyway. Tumbleweeds I’m not to sure about…
S. Weasel, to the extent Ejectia has a provisional government, daddyquatro is the reigning Court Jester/Village Idiot.
I tried a minor Palace Coup recently, in an attempt to wrest the title of Village Idiot from his hands (he was wearing multiple hats, and the Village Idiot one had shiny buttons!) but failed. I do seem to have been allowed the position of 3rd Assistant Lackey to daddyquatro, which, for any Village Idiot worth his salt, must be seen as a significant promotion.
Remember the story about the Village Idiot: A man is showing a visiting cousin around the town and they come across the Village Idiot. The man tells his cousin to watch him as he goes up and offers the Village Idiot the choice of a dollar bill or a quarter.
The Village Idiot says, “Ooh! Shiny! I wants the quarter!” A short while later the cousin goes back and speaks to the Village Idiot in private.
“Don’t you know that a dollar is worth a lot more than a quarter?” he asks.
“Sure,” replies the Village Idiot. “But if I took the dollar, the jig would be up, and they’d stop giving me quarters.”
Bravo, Rickbert!
I thought I gave you the shiny hat.
I like this one. The one that says #1 DAD.
It’s pretty old, and I screwed up once and wore it while I was changing the oil so it’s pretty dirty, but it’s still my favorite.
No more rhymes now, I mean it!
Anybody want a peanut?
Meanwhile, Rickbert grabs the proffered hat with the shiny buttons, polishes the nameplate which reads “3rd Assistant Lackey” and goes capering off, holding up the hat and cackling, “Oh, my precious! My precious!”
“3rd Assistant Lackey”?
Naah. Looks too much like someone who drives to Starbuck’s for Jessica Simpson’s ex.
And “Lap Dog” is right out. “Running Dog” might be pretty cool though. But I’m holding out for “Minion”. They get cooler toys to play with, like frickin’ laser beams. (It’s been suggested that I’m big enough to be a Minyan, but that’s another story altogether.)
Ooh! Ooh! Can I be a minion, too? I like lasers!
Rickbert, You are a perfect gentleman.
T. Monster, Why you always gotta make me look stuff up?
FYI. Minions don’t get “real” lasers.
They just get those plastic Star Trek phaser things.
Lasers are reserved for Sidekicks. You know, the straight man. The guy who can recite obscure movie dialog and cover your as*.
Speaking of which. It’s been eating at me since I f’d it up those many moons ago…
“You seem a decent fellow, I hate to kill you.”
D4/Stan
DCMSly/TAMN!
Do sidekick’s have to wear capes too? Cause after those ‘jet intake’ accidents, I’m not sure I’d want the job. Besides, you hear “3rd Assistant Lackey” and you just know the job has some growth potential! And for the record, I’m not sure I would care if the lasers are real, as long as I got to use the word frikin’ to describe them.
And yes, D4, I caught that myself but figured it was more important to keep with the spirit of the thing and follow the structure than launch an attack on the exact quotation.
Inigo: You’re using Bonetti’s defense against me, ah?
Masked Man: I thought it fitting, considering the rocky terrain.
Would something along the lines of household repairs, troubleshooting and energy savings for dummies be something worth doing up?
Regards,
anomdragon
Monopticus: If you were in my neck of the woods, I
Humans are hardwired to obey authority, it seems, and bullies represent authority of a sort.
Go read up about the Milgram Experiment, or if someone hasn’t posted here before I wake up again I’ll write up a summary. Fascinating stuff that makes people reject at their very core, for the same reasons as the idea all humans have a dark side. It does so fly in the face of our own self-image, after all…
/Derision
Well, one must ask the question. Was John Wayne a bully or a hero? Be kicked some serious butt, but always on the side of right.Some would argue, in this relativistic age of garbage, that one man’s right is another man’s wrong.
Are we going to get BADGES?
anomdragon: There’s one way to find out. Write up the two paragraph proposal Bill asked for, send it to Library@ejectia.com, and see what the Librarians think. The worst thing they can do is say “no”, which has the same effect as you not submitting it in the first place.
JMC – you’d be most welcome
Muscledaddy and I had a running contest of sorts – I rebuilt the throttle assembly on my Rochester Q – Jet carburetor (on the only late 70′s model black TransAM in Florida that did NOT have “Bandit” painted on the door) with bobby pins and a tuna fish can, he won by rebuilding a clutch plate for his motorcycle out of cereal boxes…
Elydo, you’ve struck on what I think is an important lesson from Iraq that we’ve all missed….
Bully’s don’t work alone, they need a small web of “enforcers” usually 10 percent or so, to keep everyone else in fear. Most of those enforcers wouldn’t necessarily be bad on their own, but they are willing to get their kicks from it as long as they can bask in the glory of the bully. Perhaps, they ARE acknowledged as a type of authority per se, but most people (the non sheep dogs) just want to be secure in the belief that it won’t be them, so they keep their heads down. When someone (a sheepdog) comes along and shatters that veneer of fear, the masses will desert the bully en masse. (just think back to what happens when you punch the bully in the head – I remember camp as a kid, One punch by me to the bully’s temple and four stitches later – the structure of fear from the camp bully had evaporated – to be replaced by a structure led by the kid, not me, who was just good at everything) The challenge we have in Iraq is that the people there continually have not believed we were serious about beating up the bullies.
Our post invasion problem was that we forgot that ~10% of 25 million people is a lot of people.
Until recently we kept forgetting that making people BELIEVE we’d clear out the bully’s was at least as important as doing it.
I think what the shock experiment showed is not so much that people have a dark side, but that most people will absolve themselves of blame as long as they are doing what the authority expects. Very few will have the moral courage to do what’s right if they think they might be punished for it. And even less will follow them. Remember the guy before the tank in Tienanmen?
Badges!!! We don’t need no stinking badges!
and daddyquatro “You seem a decent fellow. I’d hate to die”
Good (busy) Morning all!
This weeks book is a trio of novels
by Ursula K. LeGuin
“Three Hainish Novels”.
Still as enjoyable a read as
when I originally read the book.
The main thing I’ve always remembered
about these stories,the protective
skin one main character wore and the windsteeds.
Today’s brew was generic orange pekoe.
Just to be clear, we should submit proposals for each idea we’d like to write about. Is that correct? If so, I’ve got a few proposals to write. Fortunately for everyone here, I’ll be typing the words; the Rosetta stone for my handwriting has not yet been discovered.
Posted by: Instinct | June 18, 2007 7:24 AM
Badges!!! We don’t need no stinking badges!
I wondered if anyone would bite.
http://www.aztlan.net/badges.htm
a big howdy to y’all.
while the emphasis here seems to be on mental fitness, don’t forget that part of being an individualist is having some sort of physical fitness.
to that end
I would recommend
http://www.crossfit.com/
Elydo-
Instead, given that global warming IS happening on some scale, whether due to man’s influence or not, we should be trying to work out measures to adapt to the changing climate.
Makes sense. But, from my perspective, I don’t give you that “global warming IS happening”.
Global warming was an issue when I was still in school
As an aside, Global Cooling was an issue before the simulation-climatologists switched to Global Warming.
Maggie-
Is there an opening for
Beserkers?
Looks like a fringe religious group has claimed that slot.
With luck, they won’t gain entry to Ejectia.
Monopticus sez:
Muscledaddy and I had a running contest of sorts – I rebuilt the throttle assembly on my Rochester Q – Jet carburetor (on the only late 70′s model black TransAM in Florida that did NOT have “Bandit” painted on the door) with bobby pins and a tuna fish can, he won by rebuilding a clutch plate for his motorcycle out of cereal boxes…
Turns out that I wouldn’t be able to replicate that today – cereal-box-cardboard is less dense now.
…Dammit.
Another connection leapt to mind, during your last post on bullies (Bully’s don’t work alone,…)
Reminds one of what happened to GS after Verron left Trimaris, no?
- MuscleDaddy
Mark Paules-
Idiot ideologies eventually die of thier own lies and false assumptions, but not before millions are sacrificed on bonfires built by human stupidity.
But always remember that it can take a very long time — multiple generations. E.g., Cambodia, Viet Nam, Cuba, and their grand-daddy the Soviet Union.
The Monster-
“3rd Assistant Lackey”? Naah. … And “Lap Dog” is right out. “Running Dog” might be pretty cool though. But I’m holding out for “Minion”.
I’ve always been a fan of “henchman”. Do you have to supply your own hench?
…Grand Theft Auto is a prime example of making an irresponsible product…Our kids need to be taught to think critically about entertainment, politics, cultures, and ideas. That comes from education.
Instinct,
There is no such thing as an “irresponsible product”. I think you meant irresponsible advertising for the product. As an adult I enjoy playing GTA.
In an ideal world parents would keep this game from their kids, but I accept that will not happen all the time. Just don’t ban the game altogether.
I fully concur that children need to be taught to think critically about how the world is presented to them.
Yeah, as I wrote on another site, a lot of the support for that came up after the Blizzard of ’77, especially since the year before that was really bad, too.
So, then we have a few unseasonably warm years, and now it’s Global Warming. Lemmings.
Muscledaddy – Capri Sun boxes. Unopened, you can stand on ‘em. And for 3 bucks, the kids get 10 pouches of drink.
giffy – Thanks. I’m kinda struggling with the fitness thing myself.
Gideon300 – Isn’t it interesting that a group (Aztlan) which will cry racism if we object to allowing illegal aliens to remain in the U.S. will be so quick to point to Warner Brothers as being Jewish owned?
anomdragon-
Would something along the lines of household repairs, troubleshooting and energy savings for dummies be something worth doing up?
Absolutely. Especially “troubleshooting” and “energy savings”. I’ll be your dummy.
Elydo-
Humans are hardwired to obey authority, it seems
Prewitt: Male models don’t think for themselves.
Zoolander: That’s not true!
Prewitt: [forcefully] Yes it is, Derek!
Zoolander: [meekly] Okay.
Qwer,
”
In response to Maggie’s request concerning Beserkers, you stated “Looks like a fringe religious group has claimed that slot.
With luck, they won’t gain entry to Ejectia.
Exactly to whom are you referring?
Svinrod
Monopticus-
When someone (a sheepdog) comes along and shatters that veneer of fear, the masses will desert the bully en masse.
Well said.
Svinrod-
“Looks like a fringe religious group has claimed that slot. …”
Exactly to whom are you referring?
Svinrod
Did you mean as in, “Where were you on the night of July 6th?”
Sorry to have spun you up to the severely-formal-address level.
I’m certain there’s less here than meets the eye.
I’ll be happy to chat with you later when things seem calmer.
WayneB,
Gideon300 – Isn’t it interesting that a group (Aztlan) which will cry racism if we object to allowing illegal aliens to remain in the U.S. will be so quick to point to Warner Brothers as being Jewish owned?
Yeah, the hypocrisy amongst all those self interest groups is amazing.
qwer,
Calmer now, thank you.I do appreciate your grasp of the subtelties.
Regards-Svin
Subtleties(?)
DYDM!
Svin
And, Svin, thanks back to you as well. As a newbie poster (meaning me, of course), it is sometimes hard to know what phrasing will, or not, be thought acceptable to old hands.
To your query: I was intending to refer to those of recent infamy who think of innocent bystanders, e.g. women and children, as prized targets of mayhem. My fault for not making that clearer.
(And Dougman will always have his own — something none of us can escape in the long run.)
quer,
I suspected that might be the case. Glad I did not go off half-cocked.
Pardon me and pray continue.
Svin
I’d be interested in contributing to a column dedicated to “left field” type topics…things which are not typically discussed in conventional forums. Maybe once a week, include a left-field article designed to make people think “wtf is he talking about?”. Let’s face it, everyone occasionally has some weird facination with something unconventional, and we’d see articles with topics like “Why doesn’t anyone recognize the importance of the guy behind all those knobs (sound engineer) at the concert?” and “The most uncomfortable ride around – why do school busses have such hard suspensions?”. I think this would be a fun side to the site where everyone could contribute something fun. =)
Sigh; the GW monster will eat this project/blog.
Here’s a framework you might like to consider, tho’. There is some evidence that the geological sequence of ice ages, which would have put us in a major ice sheet growth period, was intercepted by the development of agriculture 4-8 millennia ago. Whether we are at or near a tipping point where human activity can flip the temps further up fast is the current question. The rapid withdrawal of mountain glaciers worldwide and the significant shrinkage of Arctic ice and the big lumps of Antarctic ice cover floating off, etc., seem to indicate something is happening here, and it might be worth attending to.
Sunspot cycles etc. are background; it’s whether crucial overloads are reached because of additive or multiplier effects from human intervention that we need to attend to. It can’t be denied that the Earth’s surface and atmosphere and albedo (clouds vs. dirty snow from soot, e.g.) are different from any “state of nature” due to human activity.
In any case, I personally see gold in them thar hills. All econo-caterwauling to the contrary, I think “Cleaner is Cheaper” and a whole lot more efficient and smarter. All in all, it’s best not to shit in your own nest.
browse,
Sounds like a great idea to me. Why dont you submit a proposal to the library?
Svin
Oh, btw, Instinct;
Those weird ASCII sequences come from word processor formatting code. Cutting and pasting into these comments boxes isn’t a good idea unless you start with a pure text editor version.
Brian H-
Whether we are at or near a tipping point where human activity can flip the temps further up fast is the current question.
I thought the current question was whether the globe was warming.
The rapid withdrawal of mountain glaciers worldwide
Although mention should be made, as well, of the numerous glaciers worldwide that are advancing.
the big lumps of Antarctic ice cover floating off
Although mention should also be made of the Antarctic getting cooler.
Sunspot cycles etc. are background
Although the opposite position, that the Sun dominates the globe’s heat budget, is also prominent.
are different from any “state of nature” due to human activity.
Agreed, although a negligible difference is still a difference.
it’s best not to shit in your own nest.
Unless it fertilizes more plants, which sequester more CO2 from the air.
All in all, the question of whether the globe is warming is still interesting, and worthy of discussion.
browse-
include a left-field article designed to make people think
I like it when people make me think. Go for it.
gwer,
Well said. Anthropogenic warming is a concept that can not be tested due to the brevity of human activity on this planet. To think that we humans can change the planetary cycles of climate is the height of arrogance. We might as well marshall our forces against the time when “Auld Gaia” decides to reverse polairity(again). P.S. Polar bears can swim over 100 miles. The next brown bear that steals my deer is toast.
Just sayin’ Svin
“I like it when people make me think. Go for it.” – qwer
Ok, two trains leave Chicago. The first train is heading west at 35 mph and the second train is heading east at 45 mpg. How long before the second train plunges into Lake Michigan?
Rickbert: I presume you meant the second train was traveling at 45 mph, not mpg. Anyway, if my memory of the geography of Chicago is correct, it’ll hit Lake Michigan in a matter of minutes; exactly how long depends on where it started! ;D
Doh!
Excellent, I love the initial skin! I’m curious what the Chapel will look like, in keeping with the pearl and silver motif?
Can’t wait to see the other skins.
Gaige
Michael Yon at the NRO website reports a massive offensive by U.S. forces against AQ in Iraq. It sounds like this could be the biggest battle in the war thus far. Casualties on both sides are expected to be heavy. Read the article.
Mark,
This is from the prior Update post – the comment limit appears to be exceeded, so I’ll post it here…:-)
Mark,
Please count me in for the Lyceum, and honored for the invite. One caveat – I’m reporting for US Army (Reserves) Basic Training on 4-July and won’t be returning until 2-Feb-08…
But I’ll likely be submitting proposals for articles on Practical Self-Defense (20 years instructing, students have never lost a fight, 2 opponents dead, 1 sterile, 2 in prison), Firefighting (3 years), Emergency Medical Aid (1 year EMT-B, 2 years of calls before that), Canoeing (20 years), Wilderness Camping (20 years), 3D Chess tactics (3 different variants – one of the best players out there), Basic Math Skills (Math teacher), Land Navigation (competed in Orienteering), Basic Electronics & Repair (B.S. Electrical Engineering), and one or two others…I just hope y’all can wait until I get back for me to write ‘em!
Orion
Good morning.
Twinings Breakfast Tea.
My query about beserkers was
about the old ‘yurupian’ kind
handling a two handed two
edged sword. Not the asinine
sillies of today who would
run from such.
I too read about the offensive
in Baqubah (sp?) and it’s very
big and could be decisive.
Let’s keep our guys (coalition and iraqis) in our thoughts.
Who cares about badges!?! I want to know when the T shirts will be available! Preferably with a picture of the sky city.
:::perk:::
Tee shirts? Did I hear “Tee shirts”??
Orion, you’re my kind of guy. Good luck. I’ll be waiting — almost want to hold my breath.
Maggie-
My query about beserkers was about the old ‘yurupian’ kind
My bad. But only a two-handed long sword? I’m thinking you might want to go earlier. Nothing says “Hello!” quite like a good battle axe — stone, copper or bronze. Although, maybe I’ve just got a picture of Gimli stuck in my head.
When I think of berserkers, I think of battle axes
Given the number of Heinlein enthusiasts here, this is like preaching to the choir. But some hymns are worth singing again.
“In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some. …”
“The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats.”
From “Why The Gun Is Civilization”
qwer | June 19, 2007 12:20 PM
Preach on, Rev!!
qwer-
Truer words were never spoken.
And I don’t even own a gun…yet.
Thanks, Don and Karyn, but remember I’m just quoting here.
And on that note, here’s another great article by VDH:
“Finally, remember that there is a reason why millions flood into Europe from the Middle East and to America from Mexico–and not vice versa. There is a reason why Democrats and Republicans don’t shoot each other in the streets of Washington, or why blue-state America does not mine red-state highways. And there is a reason why a Shiite mosque in Detroit is safer in the land of the Great Satan than it would be in Muslim Saudi Arabia. It’s called civilization–a precious and fragile commodity that is missed even by its destroyers the minute they’ve done away with it.”
Hypocrisy That Undermines Civilization
qwer-
I just read “Why The Gun Is Civilization”. Now I will have my 13-year-old daughter read it. This essay and Bill Whittle’s “Tribes” should be required reading for anyone studying our society, say starting at the age of 10 or 11.
During my little debate/discussion with my daughter (I always encourage her to think for herself and give me her opinion) I used the argument regarding the six young Amish girls who were gunned down, and how if their teacher had been armed that nutjob coward would have thought twice about even walking into their school.
Thank you for this link.
Orion, it’s good to have you on our side, sir. And I thank you for your service. In the meantime, I’ll hold you a seat at the Lyceum.
Karyn-
Here’s an article for you and your daughter about self-defense.
Women used to think they should be submissive during an attack. Those who resist, they thought, are more likely to get injured.
“The old school of thought to comply is wrong,” said Capt. Chelly Pfeifer of the Kansas City (Mo.) Police Department. “Most of these crimes are crimes of control, where the assailant is trying to control the victim. The victim needs to take the control back.”
In recent years police, self-defense experts and even Oprah Winfrey have preached that women should fight their attackers instead of taking no action and hoping their assailants would let them go unharmed.
The issue surfaced again after Overland Park, Kan., teen Kelsey Smith was kidnapped in a Target parking lot and murdered. Surveillance video shows her attacker apparently forcing her into her car. …
From “During an attack, fight for your life”
qwer, I am a lifelong Heinlein fan, and in your post you have nailed the essence of RAH, and the outlook that imbues all his work. A very eloquent and irrefutable defence of the second amendment. A negation of force from all enemies. Very well stated, thank you.
Dana
Dana-
I’m glad you liked Marko Kloos’ blog post.
I’m only quoting him.
Rickbert-
The first train is heading west at 35 mph and the second train is heading east at 45 mpg.
Sorry, still working the puzzle. Are they African or European trains?
And is that “mpg” miles per gram of coal? IIRC, coal provides about 25 kilojoules per gram. Let me get a calculator…
Wikipedia
Dana,
I don’t think qwer is the munchkinwrangler: the site he linked to. If he is then I am most honored to meet you qwer sir.
That’s the beauty of the internet. You can find people saying what you are thinking and, with just a link, include them in your conversation with others.
qwer-
It’s a very good post, thanks for the link.
Dana
Please ignore what I just said.
Wikipedia?
WTH did that come from?
Hi qwer!
Hi Dana!
I’m going back to mindless capering now.
Dougman!
Regarding the global warming issue, all the debate is almost pointless. If humans are causing global warming, we reached the tipping point years ago. the Kyoto Protocols would hurt the economy a great deal. And, according to an article I read in National Geographic, we would need 40 Kyoto Protocols to reverse the trend. Forty. That isn’t going to happen, and even if it did, China and India would just keep polluting and we would only gain a few years. Our best bet (assuming warming is ongoing), is to burn all the fossil fuels we want. That way, if the enviroment self-destructs, at least we will have the means to survive.
Also, a lot of the global warming science is suspect.
Hi all, I haven’t been here in a while but I’m taking a break and had to look in on who’s here, what’s doin’ and so on and so fort. I see the place is in fine keep.
This is about to be a bit of a downer. But I know that everyone here believes in duty, honor and courage.
So with great sorrow and gratitude, I will be saying a prayer for each of the following heroes:
Captain William “Billy” Hutchinson, 48, 30 years of service;
Captain Mike Benke, 49, 29 years of service;
Captain Louis Mulkey, 34, 11.5 years of service;
Engineer Mark Kelsey, 40, 12.5 years of service;
Engineer Bradford “Brad” Baity, 37, 9 years of service;
Asst. Engineer Michael French, 27, 1.5 years of service;
Firefighter James “Earl” Drayton, 56, 32 years of service;
Firefighter Brandon Thompson, 27, 4 years of service;
and
Firefighter Melvin Champaign, 46, 2 years of service.
Taps
Day is done
Gone the sun
from the lake
from the hills
from the sky
All is well
safely rest
God is nigh
I know what angels look like…
they wear hard hats.
G’night fair friends and travelers.
Thank you, alexa.
That brought tears.
D4
gwer,
Well said. Anthropogenic warming is a concept that can not be tested due to the brevity of human activity on this planet. To think that we humans can change the planetary cycles of climate is the height of arrogance. We might as well marshall our forces against the time when “Auld Gaia” decides to reverse polairity(again). P.S. Polar bears can swim over 100 miles. The next brown bear that steals my deer is toast.
Just sayin’ Svin
Posted by: svin | June 18, 2007 7:32 PM
Interestingly enough, if you average the span of all the species that have gone before (to our best speculation) and you apply it to man (depending on if you accept Australopithecus etc as early humans or one the many versions of Homo), you arrive at numbers that indicate that humans are nearing the end of their “species span”.
It’s a bit of a thinker. Nothing hard and fast, pretty much idle speculation, but interesting none the less.
BTW, I head for Aus tomorrow and the internet connection may be sketchy. If you reply regarding that comment I may not get it for a bit. I’m not ignoring you, honest!
Thanks
TI
The thoughts and prayers of the D4 family are with the families of Charlotte tonight.
TI,
I thought you were in AU. Must have missed something.
BTW, his/her nick is qwer. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Hi qwer ;>)
TattooedIntellectual,
Hi there. You may be correct about the lifespan of species, but there may be a more imminent threat. According to some astrobiologists(?), we may have reached the technological precipice that causes the extinction of most “intelligent” life forms i.e. the nuclear threshold combined with planetary isolation. Technology will either get us out of this box or blow it to smithereens.
All spelling and punctuation errors are Dougman’s fault as usual.
Ad astra volemus sella tonanti(IIRC)
Svin
“Are they African or European trains?” – qwer
They are trains, not swallows. I’d say diesels but even that detail is secondary to their speed and city of origin. Speaking of which, never attribute to fiendishly demanding story problems what can more easily be attributed to a typo. It’s mph, not mpg. Apologies.
“I know what angels look like… they wear hard hats.” – Alexa Kim
I love that line. The verse also called to mind Requiem.
Under the wide and starry sky,
Dig the grave and let me lie.
Glad did I live and gladly die
And I laid me down with a will.
This be the verse you grave for me:
Here he lies where he longed to be,
Home is the sailor, home from sea,
And the hunter home from the hill.
- by Robert Louis Stevenson
” … you arrive at numbers that indicate that humans are nearing the end of their ‘species span’” – TattooedIntellectual
National Review’s John Derbyshire has something of a reputation for pessimism. Once, during an interview this came up:
“Q. How much longer do you think humanity will last?
A. You misunderstand the nature of my pessimism. Humanity will always be around — like roaches.”
As the saying goes, “Nothing hard and fast, pretty much idle speculation, but…”
TI,
I thought you were in AU. Must have missed something.
BTW, his/her nick is qwer. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Hi qwer ;>)
Posted by: daddyquatro | June 19, 2007 9:07 PM
Hey, just cut and pasted Svin’s comment, so it’s not my fault
I’m in NZ at the moment, been here since Jan. Head to Aus until sometime late Nov/early Dec.
Svin, it doesn’t require a massive nuclear war. There’s no evidence that the dinosaurs had nuclear weapons OR huge. I think it was Stephen Hawking who said the reason they are extinct is that they didn’t have a space program.
We can’t allow our species’ eggs to remain in this single basket indefinitely. The only alternative to Ad Astra is Ad Nihil.
PIMF!
…huge carbon footprints
The thoughts and prayers of the D4 family are with the families of Charlotte tonight.
Posted by: daddyquatro | June 19, 2007 8:53 PM
I think you meant Charleston?
Don,
Yes.
That 8:53 timestamp means 10:53 Central. After 10pm my brain turns into a pumpkin with little white mice running around inside.
Don,
Yes.
That 8:53 timestamp means 10:53 Central. After 10pm my brain turns into a pumpkin with little white mice running around inside.
The Monster,
We can’t allow our species’ eggs to remain in this single basket indefinitely. The only alternative to Ad Astra is Ad Nihil.
Could not agree with you more.
Rickbert,
Gotta love “The Derb”!
Cheers-Svin
And apparently my fingers can’t control themselves no matter what time of day!
I know what you’re saying, but you have to be careful, too. There’s no rule that says that “science” — if you’re talking about the effect “science” has on what we believe — can’t go backward.
Of course, the “scare quotes” I put on “science” refer to what most people think of as science, not what science really is. Because I don’t think most people get what science really is. Which is why so many people believe in Anthropogenic Global Warming.
I recently did a post that discusses this topic: On Science and Theories.
Basically, science is supposed to be our latest best-guess based on what we know. We don’t know it all. We never will know it all. But we come up with theories as to what it might be. The more “stuff we are pretty sure of” we base a theory on, in general the better chance that the theory is closer to reality. Even if it’s very close, we should never, ever confuse the theory with reality. Some theories, maybe even a lot of theories, turn out to be … wrong.
But, as I was warned in both high school and college — often theorists get wedded to their theories to the point that they refuse to acknowledge evidence that their theories are incorrect, and stretch rationalization to the breaking point to show that evidence supports it. Scientific Method is a set of rules that are supposed to keep this from happening, but you don’t get thrown in jail for breaking them.
There are no “scientific” theories. There are just theories. Science is used to vet them out. The better the science, the better the vetting. But all science is not performed equally.
Any even semi-deep probing of the AGW “movement”, I’ll call it, reveals that the “science” behind it is high on speculation and low on rigorous analysis. Lots of theories that haven’t really been tested through scientific method, but simply projected as fact as an alarming future.
philmon – I think a good example of the tendency to get “wedded” to theories is the saga of N-Rays.
Philmon 6/20 9:11 AM –
Well stated, Sir!
And I could not agree with you more heartily!
I was also taught that that value (or “strength”) of any particular theory was to be found in that theory’s ability to predict the outcome of a reasonably well-controlled “experiment” illustrating some direct effect of said theory in its application to the physical universe.
It seems the AGW “religionists” have that a bit out of kilter… The “value” of THEIR theory is to be found in the $$$ that get granted to AGW “speculators” for “reasearch” or that are wasted in public policy decisions that are probably not much more than “feel good solutions.”
Whenever I hear or read that “The science is settled,” or when I see claims of “scientific consensus,” HUGE red flags go up for me.
/stepping off of soap box, now…
If you would really like to have your scientific cage rattled, you should check out this video. It will take a little over an hour of your time. To me, it is worth every second. It answers some nagging questions I have had. I’ll say two things:
Electric universe
Plasma science
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4773590301316220374&q=planetary&pr=goog-sl&hl=en
We pray for one last landing;
On the globe that gave us birth;
Let us rest our eyes on the fleecy skies;
And the cool, green hills of Earth.
One of my favourite poems of Heinlein
“And apparently my fingers can’t control themselves no matter what time of day!”
Posted by: daddyquatro | June 20, 2007 9:07 AM
All together now:
“Dang you Dougman!!”
Reverend | June 20, 2007 10:57 AM
Always been one of my favorates as well.
At this point, I suspect it would be good to indicate what “Global Warming” means, as it has two completely different meanings today.
1. The globe has been warming since the end of the Little Ice Age (did you know that there was one?) which ended in the 17th Century. BTW, the LIA (as it’s acronymed) followed the Medieval Warm Period (MWP), when the Vikings were farming in Greenland (that’s how it got it’s name), which got ice-covered during the LIA and is still ice-covered today.
2. The globe has been warming per Mann’s Hockey Stick graph, which has no LIA, no MWP, (Greenland was a local phenomenon) and the warming started about 1920 and except for a couple decade dip after the 1930s has been skyrocketing since the 1950s — two tenths of a degree.
So, when you hear climate scientists say that “of course there’s global warming, but there’s no evidence for a man-made cause”, their referring to the first definition of “Global Warming”.
And when you hear climate scientists (or politicians) say that Man-Made Global Warming is going to destroy the planet, they are referring to Mann’s Hockey Stick and the second definition of “Global Warming”.
And when you hear me say that the jury is out on “Global Warming”, I’m referring to Mann’s Hockey Stick — whether or not it’s man-made.
I’m just sayin…
alexa-
Thank you. Very nice.
And for me, there are also angels without hard hats, and they’re still fighting for our country.
D4, TI-
Feel free to spell my name creatively. We all know the Dougman will eventually pay the piper.
philmon-
Nice blog article (says I, and all the comedian’s wives I could find on short notice).
WayneB-
Always like to hear about them Nancy Rays. Thanks.
Thanks, Reverend. One of mine, too.
The artwork. Very well rendered. I applaud the effort and time invested.
*But* An Ivory Tower, on a mountain top, no less? IMHO, it gives the impression of an intellectual elite w/out real world experience or common sense. If I understand this community, I would think that ‘BARRACKS’ structure next to ‘Skill-training range’ and a ‘University’ structure, would best reflect on us being a ‘Remnant’.
ya know?
“A picture is worth a thousand words.” The current picture seems to portray this community a bit imperfectly.
But then my personal perception is just that, mine.
How do I perceive this community?
I see Ejectia as the best of several worlds; at their bests. Democratic Athens, Ambitious Sparta, Republican Rome and 1812 America.
I am NOT trying to re-invent Ejectia: I am thoroughly enjoying it for what it is now.
BUT that ‘Ivory Tower’ imagry just hit a nerve.
Steve Ronin, I don’t think it’s an ‘ivory tower’ in that sense. It suggests to me an air/space control structure, or a terminal for a Space Elevator, which logically would do well atop a mountain.
With the Restaurant at the Top of the World where you can dine with an awesome view, while waiting for your Elevator car to the space station in geosynchronous orbit.
And a gift shop where you can get that tee shirt that says “My parents went to the Ejectia City Spaceport, and all I got was this shirt!”
I like that T-Shirt, but I also want the one that Misha proposed today:
Maiores mei dimidium Europae despolia verunt. Ego tamen nil accepi praeter hanc tuniculam misellam.
(My ancestors plundered half of Europe, and all I got was this stupid T-shirt)
The thoughts and prayers of the D4 family are with the families of Charleston tonight. Posted by: daddyquatro | June 19, 2007 8:53 PM
Thank you for adding your voices in prayer for them and their families. There’s something very healing about prayers whispered by young children. They may not fully grasp the enormity of it all, but they do want with all their hearts for heaven to be filled with people who were helping others when they died.
“I know what angels look like… they wear hard hats.” – Alexa Kim
I love that line. The verse also called to mind Requiem.
- by Robert Louis Stevenson
Posted by: Rickbert | June 19, 2007 11:52 PM
Thank you Rickbert… very moving and apt.
alexa-
Thank you. Very nice.
And for me, there are also angels without hard hats, and they’re still fighting for our country.
Posted by: qwer | June 20, 2007 11:31 AM
Thank you qwer. I, too, think of Our Troops that way. Some might argue that we’re all angels-to-be. No, that would not be true. We’re pre-dead. But Our Troops, Troops of other flags who fight with Our Troops, who fight for freedom, wherever it is wanted but oppressed, who all wear hard hats of a sort… they are earth angels.
Another family coerced by reality to Heinlein’s view. They’re lucky to be alive.
Guns, Tears, Tragedy and Change
Many are not fortunate enough to get the chance to change their minds.
I personally believe that every household should have three types of firearms. These would cover nearly every type of need. These would be:
a large caliber handgun
A 12 gauge pump action slug gun
a rifle
Also lots and lots of ammo, which would be the first thing to go under marshall law or any sizable emergency situation.
Gideon300-
every household should have three types of firearms
Good idea. I think that laying out the reasons for these choices would make for a nice Library entry.
Firearms: Household Minimums, What and Why
You might want to look at some real world testing when choosing the weapons you want to be using inside your house or in a crowded neighborhood. This fella has done some pretty interesting stuff:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm
The three types of firearms I mentioned would be necessary for a full range of usage ability. These are listed based on the three main reasons for the need of firearms in the first place.
Sport: Some hunt, some don’t. Others just like to target shoot. Others get into shooting competition. The rifle and the handgun would be used in these areas. The slug gun that I mentioned is not very well suited for hunting, since it is a short shotgun. They usually hold 7 or 8 shells. They don’t have the range for most shotgun hunting needs, although I have had some very successful quail hunts with mine.
Protection: The two firearms of the three that would be best for this are the handgun and the slug gun. A large caliber handgun has strong stopping power. 45 cal. and 9mm are very hard hitting and hard stopping weapons. 357 magnum are also very devastating. The only problem with these three are that some of the ladies have a hard time using those sizes. In the story above, the man of the house could have probably taken out two or three of the intruders. The problem is, there were four of them.
That’s where the slug gun would have prevailed. If fully loaded with 00 buckshot, 3 or 4 rounds would have taken out the whole bunch of four.
Each round of 12 gauge 00 buck in three inch magnum sends out 15 balls at one shot. These balls are .330 in.(1/3 in.) in diameter. With a little practice, one can get off about one shot per second with a pump slug gun. Not trying to sound morbid, but the intruders wouldn’t have known what hit them. Three shots would have sent 45 of these .330 balls their direction. The shot pattern on one of these guns spreads rapidly after leaving the barrel, therefore aiming is not necessary. Just point and shoot.
Hunting or warfare: The rifle is preferable here. Pinpoint accuracy at long distances is the desireable quality here. 100 yard shots are easily accomplished with a rifle. A bit of practice will increase this distance dramatically.
In a short post like this it is impossible to go into further detail. Some of those familiar with firearms have already thought of many more things I could say. Maybe this will be some help for those who are unfamiliar with guns and shooting, but are considering looking into it. I’m sure Ejectia will have some in depth articles written about this subject.
LeftCoastBruce,
(LCB?)
Thanks for the link. Looks interesting.
quer,
The article you have proposed about household weaponry will require more than a library entry.
It will require an entire seperate library, at least.
Earlier on, someone mentioned an Amateur Philosophy Society and Gun Club. I want in on that. Ideally, it should be in the Berserkers wing of the Chase Lounge.
Cheers~Svin
Gideon300
9mm?
Apostasy!
.45 in autoloader(1911),
.357 in wheelgun. .44 mag in bear country.
Have you seen the new 4″ barrel Redhawk in .44 Mag.
That is the Bear Medicine I have been looking for.
Cheers~Svin
Svin,
9mm?
Apostasy!
I agree totally. I love 45 ACP.
I have an Ingrams M10 in 45 ACP.
I was just trying to be politically correct. My bad.
I always used my S&W slug gun for bear protection when I lived in Alaska. When I went far from the house I always loaded up with 1 oz. rifled slugs and 00 buck. Never went far from the house without it.
Gideon300
G-3?
Always wanted to torch off an Ingrams.
Lets Rock!
Svin
G-3
Of 12 gauge and bears. Our hunting camp in PA. was infested with bears. When I would come back off the mountain after a days hunt, I often encountered some Bruins between myself and the front porch. Being as the beer supply was in a cooler on the porch, me and the bears had to come to an agreement. Basically, it was this. Yo’ Mr.Bear. I got a 12 ga. slugger pointed at your head. I need a beer. If you want to get fed tonight(we always gave them our leftovers after dinner, and they sat at the dinner stump and ate properly with their paws)let me in!
Got lots of other Bear stories too. Most of ‘em are even true.
Svin
Svin,
Our hunting camp in PA. was infested with bears.
I’m sure you’re talkin about blacks. You gotta respect them, but they’re fairly easy to put down. Funny thing though. Seems like more people get hurt in Alaska by blacks than grizzlies.
What I had to worry about in the area I lived was blacks and grizzlies. Looking a grizzly in the eyes will make your blood run cold. I always loaded up with six slugs up front and two 00 behind them.
Oh yeah, bustin’ off a clip with a MAC is almost orgasmic. Takes about 2 1/2 seconds.
Gideon300 & svinrod,
Get a room!
PS You’ll have one soon!
WayneB, no N-Rays?!? I suppose next you and philmon are gonna tell me there’s no such thing as phlogiston or protoplasm. P’shaw!
And why can’t I shake the feeling I’m gonna spend the night tossing and turning to visions of shotgun-toting grizzlies dancing to a musical version of “Support Your Right to Arm Bears!”
All this talk of bears reminds me of a bit of musical doggerel I wrote a few years ago, to wit:
If you go into the woods tonight, you’re in for a big surprise
If you’re a cop in the woods tonight, you’ll be handing out DUIs
For every bear that ever there was will congregate to party because
Tonight’s the night the teddy bears have a kegger!
Kegger time for teddy bears!
The dancing teddy bears you see on TV in Charmin spots
Jiving in their underwears
And scoring refills on their honey shots
Watch them guzzle Heineken
And every now and then a little one pukes and swears
At four a.m. the paddy wagon will cart ‘em off to jail
Because they’re rowdy drunken teddy bears.
Svin-
Ah, yes. The Amateur Philosopher’s Rat’s Rump and Gun Club. Meets in the Berserker’s wing. You need to talk with the founders: Rickbert, USB, and D4. (Beware of Chaos — she’s in a foul mood tonight.)
“You need to talk with the founders: Rickbert, USB, and D4.” – qwer
Founder? I thought daddyquatro told me I was a Flounder! Well, I guess that does clear a few things up…
Thanks, Rickbert. DM strikes again.
Of course, I meant the Flounders of the AP Rat’s Rump and Gun Club. It was just a fluke.
The Secretary will now read the meetings from the last Amatateur Philosophy and Gun Club Meeting:
daddyquatro: Rickbert, I submit to you that you are a flounder.
Rickbert: Posh! A flounder has both eyes on the same side of it’s head.
daddyquatrio: Do you have eyes in the back of your head?
Rickbert: Of course not, both of my eyes are on the front of my head.
daddyquatro: QED, you are a flounder.
There’s an old saying that a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged. Here’s one example:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/phillip_morris/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1179218274175560.xml&coll=2
I wish I had something beneficial to offer, but my expertise is sadly limited to video games and computer technology. If either of these things has an interest here, I will be glad to offer what services I can.
Sincerely,
Eric J. Bass
After I got my latest Goldwing, I traded my 1982 model for a 1911 model 45ACP … hopefully that qualifies me for subflounder status in the Amateur Philosophy Society and Gun Club.
My contribution for today, thinking about the story of the convert and his family, is that an properly unloaded handgun – a la all the gungrabberjabber – is a handy piece of “iron” to whack at least one perp upside the head before the others butcher the lot of you. On the other hand, a loaded handgun can be a really handy weapon, even against 4, since these types generally are brave only when others cower in front of them. My dady taught me that every gun should always be treated as if it’s fully loaded and the safety is off, so I see no reason NOT to have my ace in the hole loaded and ready for use.
And, just as I take an advanced riding course every few years to make sure my bad riding habits are expunged … I believe regular range use is necessary to ensure I know how to use my hand and long guns should need arise. Second Nature – aka habit – trumps “how does this damned thing work again?” every time.
pete in Midland,
After I got my latest Goldwing, I traded my 1982 model for a 1911 model 45ACP … hopefully that qualifies me for subflounder status in the Amateur Philosophy Society and Gun Club.
Sounds like a fair trade to me.Any 1911 should qualify one for the APS&GC of Ejectia.
The only other requirement I could think of is to have memorised “The Four Rules”, the first of which is:
1)All guns are always loaded, all the time.(even if someone tells you it is not)
Free Whiskey in Berserkers Hall for the first person to post the other three.
Regards~Svin
Cooper’s Gun Handling Rules
1. A gun is always loaded.
2. Don’t point a gun at anything you aren’t willing to destroy; (especially don’t traverse the muzzle across a person’s body).
3. Always keep your index finger straight until you are aiming at what you intend to shoot.
4. Know what you’re shooting and what is behind it.
(I’m just in it for the Free Whiskey.)
Rickbert – sorry, no phlogiston (see the Michelson-Morley experiment). Of course protoplasm exists! What do you think is inside amoebas?
Mordrach – We welcome all kinds! Just ask the flounder, er, um, I mean Rickbert. Hang out, read stuff that other people may write, and if something comes to you that is different, or will expand or counterpoint something someone else has written, by all means submit a proposal. The Library people will contact you after they review it. You aren’t required to submit anything, just welcome to.
WayneB, what did Michelson-Morley have to do with phlogiston? That was the one that disproved Aether.
quer,
Free whiskey it is, and well earned. Name your pizen!
WayneB,
I suspect Rickbert meant to say “ectoplasm”. You know, the stuff of which ghosts are made.
~Svin
Monster – Oops, I remembered that one wrong. I need to remember to double-check things with my horrible memory.
svin – I actually suspected that was what he meant, but wanted to have a little fun. I wouldn’t recognize ectoplasm if I was slimed with it.
Home invasions seem to be getting more popular.
From Police: Victims Use Stashed Weapons To Kill, Injure Home Invaders
Ghosts made out of phlogiston? Bet they hate bottle rockets.
Friends,
Today is the summer solstice.
May it’s bounty grace your hearth for the winter to come.
For tonight,
Peace
~Svin
“I suspect Rickbert meant to say ‘ectoplasm’.” – svinrod
Ectoplasm? Ooops. Sorry folks but, erm, we’re all wrong. I meant phlogiston and protoplasm, because they are both words used by now defunct scientific theories. Today protoplasm is still occasionally used to refer to the material inside a cell but in a way different from its original usage.
Historically, it was used in the sense of elan vital or vital force. All living things were assumed to have some almost magical animating energy that moved all the ‘mere matter’ that made up the body. Today, we just call that chemical metabolism.
Now as for ectoplasm, I’ve seen Ghostbusters so I know that’s real. Sorry for the confusion, at least it sparked another episode of the Amateur Philosophy and Gun Club.
Let the Ejectaplasm flow!
“Let the Ejectaplasm flow!”
That just sounds… wrong somehow.
Eeew — and I think I know how.
DYDM!
I appreciate the welcome, WayneB… However, I don’t want to offer opinions that don’t interest folks here, so for the time being, I’ll be a tech/gaming Q & A guy… I invite anyone to throw questions my way, no matter how “old” the item in question may be (I go waaaaaaaaay back)…
“Let the Ejectaplasm flow!”
Rickbert LOL
I walk in and the first thing I see is Leftfoots post of “let the ejectaplasm flow”
*shakes head laughing*
We started with castles in the sky and ended up here
Ewww!
Let us lift our sights higher.
“‘Let the Ejectaplasm flow!’
That just sounds… wrong somehow.” – The Monster
Oh my. I leave the thread for a few hours and…
Heh. I refuse to be held responsible for certain, shall we say, locker-room interpretations of my phrase. I simply meant Ejectaplasm as a play on words for protoplasm, the idea that living things had some vital, animating force. Ejectaplasm was supposed to conjure up the vibrant, animating, To The Stars! spirit of the Ejectia community. I dunno, maybe I should quit while I’m behind, but I can’t help recalling the old joke:
A guy is sitting in his therapist’s office and is being shown a series of Rorschach inkblots. The therapist holds up the first one and says, “What do you see?”
Guy says, “Two people having sex.” Second picture goes up, “Two more people having sex.”
After getting the same answer to the third inkblot, the therapist asks the guy if maybe he has some issues with sex.
“I dunno Doc, you’re the one showing me all the dirty pictures.”
For those who’d like to visit asteroids…
Dawn Spacecraft Prepares for Launch July 7, 2007
With all the Heinlein talk, I figure I had a confession to make…I tried Job and # of the beast in college and they did nothing for me. Muscledaddy threw Friday my way, and I liked it , so I read The moon is a harsh mistress (one of my fav’s and required reading at SOCOM), cat who walks…time enough….stranger… starman Jones and starship troopers.
The thought of the citizens concept always appealed to me, until last election when the “chickenhawk” & “moral authority” crowd started up, with Wes Clark, a man for whom I had the great misfortune to work, at its head. Obviously to me something was missing from that formula… I am even more anxious now that the polls say the only institution in which the public still has trust IS the military – now as a vet, I am tickled that people legitimately support them, but it seems dangerous to me that people DONT trust anything else, or that most of our other institutions have been so little deserving of trust as of late.
So again, I ask, what was it about the socio-politics of ST that seemed so appealing in fiction and so bad in real life.
My hypothesis is that it was successful because Corporals had nuclear weapons. To get away with that, they had to have a social and military training system that placed significant power and authority at the lowest levels, while ensuring that those corporals could and would exercise that power with discretion. It was this, more than the quid pro quo of service, that made the system work.
I also find the 90210 metro unisex infantry from the movie a wasted opportunity for a good message, where the book allowed men and woman to settle in their natural roles, both equal and complimentary (rather than identical) in their contributions, but that it was only the last few pages where we found Johny Ricco was Philipino and Dizzy Flores was black. Up until then they were simply “soldiers”, generally true in the military attitudes of the late 1950′s but pretty radical for society writ large.
Thoughts?
monopticus,
The ST concept of citizen is, in one sense, very elitist. Only those that join the military and are immersed in the concepts of duty, honor, planet can earn the title.
On some level this is very appealing. Only those willing to make the ultimate sacrifice can make the ultimate decisions.
But the idea of universal suffrage is too deeply ingrained in our society. Literally millions have died for that very idea.
Genie’s pretty happy outside her bottle. She ain’t going back.
monopticus | June 22, 2007 7:39 PM
Heinlein was pretty radical from everything of his that I’ve read.
And I find myself leaning more and more toward the idea of only those with military service being allowed to vote. Given the ignorance of the general population, that may be the only way to salvage the country.
And this from a “Conscience Objector” during the Vietnam “Police action”. Gawd I was young…..
For all of that, I never thought less of those who served. And I wholeheartly support those who are serving/have served now.
D4, you’re sadly right. Any student of history understands that universal suffrage inexorably leads to the assembly of electoral blocs of Pauls whose platform is to rob the Peters to pay them.
A requirement that a person be of a particular race or gender, or from the ‘right’ sort of family to vote is definitely ‘elitist’, but Heinlein’s vision, allowing anyone of any socioeconomic status to volunteer a term of Federal Service (not necessarily ‘military’) to earn the franchise, is hardly ‘elitist’ in the sense of the term commonly intended.
I submit that there is no such thing as the ‘right to vote’, if ‘right’ is to mean the same thing that it means every other place it’s used in the Declaration of Independence and Constitution (as amended).
There is no ‘right to serve on a jury’; it is the accused criminal and the parties to a civil controversy who have the right to have their actions tried by common citizens rather than an elite class of ‘noblemen’. When I go into the courthouse to serve on a jury, I am not exercising my rights as a citizen, but my civic duty to defend the rights of other citizens. That’s why it’s called ‘jury duty‘
When I step into the voting booth, I am similarly performing a civic duty. Again, it is the right of citizens to have their actions judged by commoners (if we’re voting directly on a referendum, or indirectly if we’re electing representatives to make the laws on our behalf) which I am acting to protect.
Monster,
Rights = Responsibility.
That’s the equation the FF left out.
You have a right to freedom of speech. You have a responsibility to speak the truth.
You have a right to keep and bear arms. You have a responsibility to keep them secure, to instruct yourself and those in your household to their proper handling.
You have a right to peaceably assemble.
You have a responsibility to not expose your fellow citizens to your 50 year old saggy butt while you and your fellow “activists” spell out “I Heart Peace” on a beach with your flabby bodies.
PS Editorial “your”. I don’t know if monster butts get saggy.
Back from vacation. Drove straight through from South Padre to Arkansas with 2 hour layover in Dallas to visit my wife’s aunt. Am numb, disoriented, too wired to sleep yet. Passed three really bad accident scenes in Dallas.
Wife’s cousin is a retired Dallas paramedic.
Beast: “Does every driver in Dallas have a death wish?”
Cousin: “Yes.”
Beast: “Is there any sort of safe way to get out of this town?”
Cousin: “Helicopter.”
An honest man, I like him.
Brought us home, safe and sound. Small glass and a beer chaser, book and bed.
Sweet dreams, all.
Welcome home, Beastie.
I’m about to start my 1400 mile trek to Indiana next weekend. Wish me luck.
D4
“… only those with military service being allowed to vote. Given the ignorance of the general population, that may be the only way to salvage the country.” – Don
I haven’t read the book but I’m inclined to agree with monopticus’ theory, even though I’m firmly in the Universal Suffrage camp. Give corporals nukes and you need to be damn sure you can trust your corporals. But that’s only an extreme example of the true challenges.
Enshrine the right to keep and bear even muskets and you need to be damn sure your citizens won’t go around blowing each others’ heads off, or shooting themselves in the foot. Establish a federal republic (composed of states whose legislatures were democratically elected?) and you need to make damn sure they know the folly of Robbing Peter to Pay Paul.
Even if a ruling class of Warrior/Philosopher/Kings willing to risk their lives to defend their society could keep each other honest, how could they overcome the dangers inherent in a less than well-educated and informed populace? It’s not enough to keep the ignorant from voting; it’s the levels of ignorance alone that present the danger.
I think you must build a society of good citizens, even if you have to do it one citizen at a time.
“I think you must build a society of good citizens, even if you have to do it one citizen at a time.”
That would be a great idea for a website.
Rotating title suggestion. “Ejectia: Building better citizens, the old-fashioned way: One at a time.”
D4, you’re spot on about Rights and Responsibilities. Unfortunately, we have political factions who think the twain can be separated. They want to be free to engage in behavior that is likely to produce negative results, but have a government program to compensate them when it does.
They don’t understand that if they get their wish, and Hillarycare is paying for their medical treatment, then it becomes the piper-payer’s prerogative to control what they do in their bedrooms, whether they wear a helmet to ride a motorcycle, etc.
Flying small private planes will be right out. (Except for members of The Annointed ruling class.) Mountain climbing? Get real. Bungee jumping? Are you out of your mind? Now put on your helmet, shoulder, elbow, thigh, and knee pads, and get back inside your protective bubble before you get hurt.
And my Monster butt isn’t the problem nearly as much as my belly. I bear more than a passing resemblance to This guy.
Hi all, Wasn’t the school system set up originally in this country to ensure “one citizen at a time”, then the totalists figured how to subvert it. Like they always do, bending it into a perverted shell of its former self while still maintaining the outward appearance of the original? It even happened in the universities, the bastions of intellectual freedom. How do we eliminate this cancer except to eliminate it? Which brings us right back around to the Remnant. It is the micro that ultimately affects or effects the macro. Maybe we are always destined to be the nail that doesn’t stick out, but none the less holds the board in place.
Monster, if I could get you to say everything I want to, I wouldn’t have to type anymore, because you almost invariably give it a more thorough treatment. I hate you.
I was going to write a comment similar to yours about rights vs. responsibility last night, but I realized before I submitted it that I was too tired, so I didn’t. Then I come back and you did it for me.
Since monopticus brought it up, though: I wonder how many people catch that Colin Campbell in “The Cat Who Walks Through Walls” is black? The cover artist for my copy certainly didn’t. Of course, it doesn’t change the story in any way, but once you recognize the clues, you get a good look at your personal assumptions.
I’m sure that Heilein did stuff like that on purpose, because of course he could have left out all references to race, but I think he liked to throw in a couple of people here and there who were not what you were likely to assume they were, then add one or two subtle clues that most people wouldn’t notice the first time through, so some people could get an “Aha!” moment about themselves.
“Wasn’t the school system set up originally in this country to ensure ‘one citizen at a time’” – Leftfoot Leeds
Actually, we’ve fallen further than that. Our educational system was set up back when “every citizen, all together” was the educational theory. The Brits may have already gone further than pretty much anyone else (up to that point) in their attempts to universalize education, and expand the electoral franchise. But we decided they hadn’t gone far enough, on either count.
Ah, those were the days. Good times.
I think also the educational system has abandoned the idea of teaching the students to think for themselves. Instead they want kids who are indoctrinated into their point of view.
If you teach the kids to think for themselves they might reject the liberal ideas and embrace conservative values, so the only option is to create a group of unthinking followers.
Sadly, the ‘no child left behind’ farce has increased the problem by mandating what will be taught so that rather than kids learning, questioning, and discovering answers they are instead being taught only what will be on the test so that they can regurgitate the information back since the schools money is based on test scores.
The original idea of federal funding for public schools was to create educational equality for all students – which it never did. It has mutated though into federal control of what our kids learn and an overall lowering of educational standards and performance and I doubt that MORE regulation will fix the problem.
Hey Gang,
The following is text of a speech I gave back when my schedule allowed me to be a proud member of Toastmasters International. It pretty much sums up where I stand.
Madame Toastmaster, fellow Toastmasters, honored guests: The individual is the basic unit of Society. If you wish to have a happy, healthy, prosperous Society you must start with happy, healthy, prosperous individuals. There is no other way.
Neither happiness, health, nor prosperity can be imposed or mandated from above. The most any governing entity can do is to preserve and protect the condition upon which happiness, health, and prosperity depend. That condition is Liberty.
There are several definitions of Liberty, but I prefer my own. I define Liberty as the fundamental, inborn right of individuals to go to heaven or to hell in their own hand basket without interference. Some may find this definition a bit extreme, but I am defining Liberty in its purest form. And pure Liberty, like pure alcohol, must be used with restraint if it is to be enjoyed.
For this reason, we, as individuals, agree to stop at stop signs, keep our hands to ourselves, curb our dogs and otherwise do unto others as we would have them do unto us…The Golden Rule. It is this blending of pure Liberty and the Golden Rule that makes for happiness, health, and prosperity in Society.
Please note that this blending cannot be effectively imposed by any governing body. Without the agreement and cooperation of individuals, any attempt by government to impose its vision of social order will result in brutal tyranny. Stalin with his Five Year Plans, Mao and his Cultural Revolution, the Taliban in Afghanistan; all serve as bloody reminders.
When individuals come together to form a government they must recognize that they are creating a living being, a living breathing thing with the same needs and desires as anything of flesh and blood: the need for identity, for sustenance, for self-preservation, for control of its own destiny, and the desire to grow.
Our Founding Fathers created such a being. Their genius, their foresight imposed upon their creation strict controls, checks and balances designed to protect the rights of individuals against…what? Foreign invaders? Criminal conspiracies? Y2K? No. Their goal was to protect our rights against the very government they created. They knew, those blessed, farsighted men, that no government can be trusted. In Federalist Paper number 10 James Madison said: “Enlightened hands will not always be at the helm.” History does not allow us to disagree with him.
We have, in my lifetime, seen a steady erosion of individual Liberty. For the common good, for the sake of law and order, for political correctness we have surrendered or been stripped of rights that for generations had posed no threat to anyone. We have surrendered these rights for promises of security and when that security fails to materialize, as it inevitably does, we are asked to surrender more rights for more promises.
And it seems that all those in power have to do to get us to agree to their demands for more power is to declare War on something. The War on Poverty, the War on Drugs, the War on Organized Crime, and now the War on Terrorism, all have come with demands that we give up just a little more of the very thing that makes us unique in the world: Liberty.
As you may have guessed by now, I am a Libertarian. I believe that the government that governs best governs least, that absolute power corrupts absolutely and that when any individual surrenders his rights for a “pocketful of mumbles” he deserves what he gets.
It is only when we as individuals insist on our fundamental inborn right to go to heaven or to hell in our own hand basket, and, as individuals, are willing to face that possible hell, only then can we be truly free. Only then can we know Liberty.
“Neither happiness, health, nor prosperity can be imposed or mandated from above.” – USBeast
I know. Let’s pass a law declaring that all those things can be mandated from above. Ya, that’s the ticket!
Rickbert,
Great idea, but it will have to wait. I’m still working on a bill that will make pi equal to 3.0.
USBeast,
You are, as usual, spot on (IMO). I have had the pleasure to know a few other Toastmasters and am always impressed by their eloquence.
To return to the topic of education for a moment: As I understand it, our educational model was the Prussian school system of the late 19th century. The purpose of that system was not to maximize learning opportunity but to create trained and capable soldiers and workers to serve the needs of the Prussian state.
Therein lies the basic problem. From the very beginning, we copied an educational model that is anethma to what most of us here would consider to be required to produce good citizens. Thus, the current system can never be properly reformed. It can only be abolished and an entirely new model be constructed. One that can teach individuals how to think for themselves and not just become cogs in a machine or proletarian drones.
Sorry to carry on so, but this needs immediate attention.
Suggestions?
Svin
Hey all. Just got back from a week in Boston. Our return flight made national news (CNN) yesterday when the plane got diverted to Minneapolis. The pilots detected smoke in the cockpit, and we could smell something similar in the cabin, yet they couldn’t tell if anything was wrong with the instruments. Following TSA protocols they landed us rather than taking chances, for which I applauded them. No idea yet what was wrong with the plane, they ended up canceling the flight and we had to make our way home on another airline. So I ended up having a ~12 hour flight home to Seattle.
Gideon300, about your sourdough starter: when you mentioned “natural” rice, do you mean wild rice, long grain brown rice, or some other kind? For my first attempt I’m sticking with just potatoes for the soak, and then all purpose flour to see what I end up with.
Svinrod,
Thanks for the kind words. Toastmasters is indeed a great bunch. As one unusually honest Speech teacher once said: “If you want a grade, take my class. I you want to learn to speak, join Toastmasters.”
As to our education system: For years I have held to the idea that teachers should be private contractors; dealing directly with parents, setting their own price and making their own rules. Government, if it is involved at all, should be reduced to providing safe, sanitary structures in which to hold classes with the proviso that students (according to their abilities) would be required to make sure that the facilities were kept shipshape and Bristol fashion.
Graduation would be an individual accomplishment, signified by acceptance into a college or trade school. This could occur at any age and would be based on achievement.
The business sector would be the primary source of financial assistance to those in need. As an educated work force is essential to maintaining profits, those interested in profits would see such assistance as an investment. This assistance would be applied for by the teacher.
Such a system, unlike the current one, would encourage better parenting because the whole idea is based on merit and achievement.
This is thumbnail sketch of the idea and I welcome anyone to poke holes in it.
Right now I’m working on a plan to move the Capital to the Badlands of South Dakota.
Gideon300, about your sourdough starter: when you mentioned “natural” rice, do you mean wild rice, long grain brown rice, or some other kind? For my first attempt I’m sticking with just potatoes for the soak, and then all purpose flour to see what I end up with.
Posted by: Ezekiel2517 |
Any kind of rice is fine, just as long as it hasn’t been par cooked or overly washed and cleaned. In other words stay away from things like Uncle Ben’s converted rice. Most bagged rice is plenty good.
Also remember that if your starter doesn’t show activity after 18-24 hours you can add a little activated dry yeast. Just dissolve it in water first.
The only thing wrong with your plan, USBeast, is that too many parents DGAS. Although not many kids escape the cycle of poverty through the public school system, that percentage would drop to zero if the parents actually had to do something. I see the Beastie Education Reform Bill as the ideal end state. Could we not take the preliminary step of vouchers?
Don’t care enough about you kid to expend any effort? Let him go to the local state sponsored indoctrination center. The rest of us could shop around to get more bang for our buck.
I move to attach my “Sky is Green Amendment” to your pi bill.
I Like pi!
“I think also the educational system has abandoned the idea of teaching the students to think for themselves.”
There is no question of this. The government schools (do not call them ‘public’; Neal Boortz is right about the name) were specifically designed to produce compliant drones suited to working on assembly lines. Rote memorization was a good way to do that. System-building and independent thought is not.
And USBeast, are you Win to my Ed, or am I Win to your Ed?
Beast, Monster, and Svin,
I swore to myself that I wouldn’t spend any time here until I had my patio built, but your arguments compel me to write. Some of you know that I’m a teacher. After checking out the local public schools as a substitute, I was convinced that a new career for me in education would be a waste of time. The better public schools were recreation centers, and the worst were temporary lock-ups for the criminally inclined. No thanks. As luck would have it, a new charter school called me for temporary duty which quickly turned into a full-time gig. The students understood my M.O. from the start and I have earned numerous terms of endearment from them: Warden, the Enforcer, Campus Cossack, and other appellations that I won’t repeat in polite company. Suffice it to say that I created a position for myself at the midway point between public and private. I then had to endure 18 credit hours of politically correct indoctrination before I could be certified. I will tell you after the fact that I now fear neither hell nor purgatory. But it wasn’t all bad. I frequently stood in jacket and tie before the minions of “sensitivity” and “understanding” and before it was over had the entire classroom of prospective teachers backed into a corner like so many sheep facing a border collie. I wear formal dress because education is a serious and formal business. I suppose it says much about our culture that today only sports coaches wear a tie and jacket for the game. But I’m ranting when what I really need is some help.
Beastie, I’m in total agreement about the need to privatize all education. But it’s not going to happen in my lifetime. Charter schools are the next step, an evolution in education, but they’re as likely to produce a school for Wiccan studies (I’m only slightly exaggerating) as they are to produce a classical curriculum. I’m in the latter category, and I need your help.
I can sling content from every orifice of my body in a dozen different subjects. No good. Not enough. I’d rather teach critical thinking. The subject doesn’t matter. The ability of a student to arrive at a conclusion based on logical thinking and deduction matters a great deal. Now, how do I teach it? Socratic seminar is good. I use it routinely. Other methods? I need to know. I’m revamping my entire curriculum for September.
I’ll take the chance and post my email: mpaulesakabasil@msn.com
Your suggestions and recommendations are solicited and most welcome.
~Paules
D4,
I cannot agree with you 100%. A lot of the DGAS syndrome is brought on by Got No Choice. Vouchers would be a swell segue except for two things: 1. They are being fought tooth and nail by those who who would lose their phony-baloney jobs if parents were actually allowed to expect their kids to learn something. Given the current sorry state of affairs it is highly possible that vouchers will disappear under a dunghill of NEA approved “reforms” come the next election. 2. Private schools, especially those attached to churches, would be just as corruptible as the public ones once the money pours in. Putting individual teachers in charge (and in competition with each other)is not a perfect solution, but it does bring the marketplace into the equation. As imperfect as the marketplace is, it gets things done and is more responsive to innovation and improvement than anything the government (or the NEA) has to offer.
Another plus to my idea is that it would weed out the deadbeats. No one without a fire in the belly for teaching would survive for long and our educational system is long overdue for a full scale Darwin event.
Monster,
You’ve got me guessing. Most of the time I can’t Win and am regarded as out of my Ed.
Now, how do I teach it?-Mark
I’ll go out on a limb and suggest something just like we are doing now.
Online.
For students that have access. Students without access (like myself) give a shout-out with a headline in The Gazette inviting the citizens of Ejectia to help them to the virtual classroom.
I believe this adds a new twist to teaching, would you agree?
I don’t mean anything radical, but maybe something like an on-line tutoring for your class.
Maybe right here at the University.
Whad-d-ya think there Marky Mark?
Ladies and Gentlemen,
In a rare personal appearance,
From his summer home in the land of 10,000 taxes.
It’s Dougman!
Mark,
There is no reason why it can’t happen in your lifetime. “Home schooling” has become as common as “home improvement”. Home schooled kids have to pass tests to prove to the state that they are actually learning something and not just plopped on the couch eating junk food and watching Sponge Bob Square Pants. As far as I know, there is no law that says the parents of these children have to do the actual teaching.
Enter the private contractor.
We are thinking outside the box here. This is a guerrilla education movement idea. It has to start small…with a few Remnants.
As a teacher, Mark, you are overworked and underpaid. If you work for the state you are also buried under a pile of what my father called “horseshit regulation”. (The Old Man never used the word “regulation” without preceding it with the word “horseshit”.)
If you are going to be overworked and underpaid, would it not be better to do so without the equine dung heep?
Us Beast…
“2. Private schools, especially those attached to churches, would be just as corruptible as the public ones once the money pours in.”
The church schools are indeed corruptible right now without the money pouring in. I’ve had to really stay on top of what leftist baloney the teachers
would slop liberally on to my kids pallets. I think they finally have an aversion to that sour taste.
For those interested in looking further into U.S. education, I’d recommend the following book:
Market Education: The Unknown History, by Andrew Coulson
Very good reading.
Mark-
Not meaning to intrude, but a friend just asked a similar question as a result of most of the first class (survey of Biology for non-majors) failing the final. I’m sure you’re well past that stage of affairs. But on the off chance it might help. This is the guts of my answer:
While vouchers are okay, I’d rather have tax credits. I see no particular reason to filter the money through the government first. And by not so filtering, there becomes no Separation issue with using that money the government never gets to send your child to a church-run school should you so desire.
Also, I’m not opposed to kids being sent to a Wiccan charter school. Darwin will resolve that matter, and I’d rather let the parents have that liberty with their kids than cede it to government.
Make pi=3.0? I’m with you, but why stop there? While we’re at it, we may as well outlaw all irrational numbers. I mean, they’re irrational, people!
And speaking of failures in our educational system…
I’m really looking forward to some forum threads on education. If I had kids at this point, I think I would do everything in my power to home school them and send them to a private school.
Mark Paules, my experience isn’t so much professional as what I learned while tutoring and helping out in study groups. My secret weapon was the Outline. Most students had been required to produce outlines before writing papers at some point in their academic lives, but tended to treat them with fear and loathing. That’s why I had to make it a secret. If I could find a way to explain the big picture of a subject in everyday terms, even a ‘talk to me like I’m five’ version, it was a step in the right direction.
It was like drawing a succession of increasingly detailed maps. Start out where folks can get their bearings just looking at a few brightly colored circles, squares and triangles. Then start drawing lines between them, then start divvying up the big shapes, starting over with fresh paper as things got filled in. But every step of the way, the student never lost sight of true North. And before they knew it, they were mastering the subject they once feared they couldn’t (and perhaps adopted the pose of not caring to protect themselves from the thought).
Eventually you end up with a map of the next test, the entire semester, or the entire field of study, as detailed as a USGS map. By then you could send the student into it with a compass, a book of matches and a penknife, and they would come back the next morning with a bearskin rug. There is no difference between a series of maps and a series of outlines. The only trick was to build their confidence with I, II, and III (at which point their interest was no longer an issue) before throwing II.B.3.a.iii at them.
Maybe teachers feel silly or even academically shady starting out with grossly, even dangerously oversimplified presentations. But starting out with crayons instead of protractors may be the best way to teach someone how to use that protractor.
Okay, group, thanks for your input, but so far no one has suggested a technique to teach critical thinking that I don’t already use. I can see that I’m going to have to do some research on my own.
However, I do like the idea of using ejectia with my students in a virtual classroom. I already have used some of Bill’s essays in class.
Regarding the ongoing debate about public education, I don’t have time to launch a treatise now. Those who have suggested some form of free-lancing by highly successful classroom teachers are probably close to the mark.
Anyway, it’s 0530 here and time for the pick and shovel before it gets too hot to work outside. Looking forward to the ongoing thread as it develops.
~Mark
Mark, I have $.02 for you.
Allowing the quicker students to tutor is excellent, but it is also time consuming. Teaching something that must be realized is always touchy. Are the results often suspect? Yes. A student will mimic rather than think. Imagery is probably the best example. A student can learn simple musical melodies and convince you that he can read music. The fact is that he knows that melody and it can be written.
To point out a few areas that require critical thinking might be in order. A labyrinth with only one solution requires the correct answer and has many wrong dead end paths. The poke and prod method takes too much time. Give your students one of these and see how many attempt to do it backwards. There are many other examples, but the most important aspect is that the students must already possess the skills necessary to complete the task in either an efficient manner or a non efficient manner. Critical thinking will help them determine this.
My only experience with teaching is my two children. My first was reading at three and taught my second, also at three, when he was ready. Both are very smart and can learn anything now by themselves. They only need guidance.
Video games are also very good for critical thinking. Many first person games have puzzles embedded as part of the challenge. With pieces and clues disguised as garbage in a real world environment.
Just a thought.
Mark,
A little unsolicited input from the “Unquiet One”:
I took a course in the summer of 1983, to round out my education beyond what I was getting in a MS degree program. I forget the exact title but it was something like Philosophy 20x: Critical Thinking. This was one of those 6 week, 3 hours, twice a week small classes I learned to love after the 300+ student lecture hall classes I was getting in Chemical Engineering at U of Md. The main textbook – yes I went down this morning and dug it out of the boxes in the basement – was Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric – The Use of Reason in Everyday Life Third Edition Howard Kahane 1980 .
First day, the professor walks in and announces he only decided to teach this class as a summer course to do an experiment and we were his guinea pigs. Since we have a small group he is going to try something different. He knows we could not find the book at the bookstore because he had changed his mind a picked it too late. He invitees everybody up to his desk. There is a stack of the course books and piles of copied articles from Time, Newsweek, The Baltimore Sun, NY Times, Washington Post, Scientific America, The Economist, etc.
- There are no actual quotes below – it is the way I remember it -
First, everybody take one of the books. You can pay me at any point you decide the course is worth the additional $13.60 or not at all if you never get to that point. I am not asking you to pay for the book because I am going to ask each of you to buy, read and prepare critical analysis of writing from publications you will have to buy and pay for yourself. I have some examples on the desk, pick any three from the small piles.
Everybody take one of the Time and Newsweek ones; we are going to go through those later today.
Ok, everybody out of here; go read the first chapter, Good Reasoning, and the Time and Newsweek articles, get a drink and a snack and come back 45 minutes before class was supposed to end.
When we came back, had us all get out highlighters and pens and proceed to walk us through the first chapter, highlighting what he thought important, adding words and phrases here and there – changed valid to cogent – , put comments in the margins, etc. This took about 20 minutes then he stopped. He walked around comparing ours to his for the pages we covered. OK, you get my point? Everything you read, including your textbooks, deserves your critical analysis and can be wrong or improved upon.
Now, how much time do we have left? 25 minutes? I’ll only need five. Then, after we talk for a few minutes I am going to go around and reshuffle the three articles you each picked earlier to get the best discussion on Thursday we can. Get out your highlighters and pens again.
He asked us what we thought of the articles and got a few weak, unsure comments here and there. He then proceeded to point out the few examples of correct reasoning in the two articles and tear the rest of it to shreds with a smile on his face. He was enjoying his demonstration of critical thinking and we could all see it.
OK, so the Time article boils down to – “We don?t like X”; and Newsweek’s to – “X could fail”. What a waste of paper. Wow, was that fun? Makes reading the Sun (Baltimore) in the morning start my day with a smile every time.
I’m enjoy this because somebody taught me critical thinking. My job this summer is to teach you.
That’s it for today. Read the book, read the articles, mark them up; highlight examples of both correct and fallacious reasoning; try to identify them. If you come across something else you want to discuss, mark it up and bring it in. Stick it on my desk before class so I can scan it and we will work it into our discussion.
Then the class was just a discussion of articles, books, TV commentary, anything somebody wanted to bring up. The professor always brought in some of his own directed material. We referenced back into the book. We learned the formal rules. But mostly we enjoyed learning to look deeper into the reasoning behind the arguments of the various parties trying to influence public opinion of contemporary issues.
It worked because we, the students, picked the material and the topics of discussion and he, the teacher, showed us how critical thinking could be applied to improve our understanding of and contribution to discussion of the topic.
The teachers name was Tempelton. I don’t remember his first name. Not sure I ever used it. This morning as a write this, I remember the class like it was yesterday.
PS. We all paid the $13.60 for the book. Even if we only used it for the first week.
PSS. Mark, I am not a teacher, so I have no idea what you were really looking for with your question. Hope this has some value to you. My little announcement about the ECTN – Ejectia Critical Thinking Network a while back was going in this direction.
Good Memories, Thanks Mark.
Unquiet
The signal to noise ratio is much improved. Its almost worth keeping in touch. I will check back in a few more months. Maybe something real will have happened by that time.
PS: In any project, priorities should be set by a very simple rule: do those things FIRST that, if not done, there is no point in doing anything else. Creating the pretty pictures for the project is like putting the decorations on a cake without first baking the cake. What’s the point? I say make something real happen then make it pretty.
US Beast: Your education plan sounds a lot like the parochial grade school I attended, except for the private contract and business funding. Parents had direct access to the teachers at all times. At the end of each day, the brooms came out and we swept our classroom; at the end of the week, washcloths were handed out, and we were expected to clean our desks.
TM, I have to differ with you on the subject of rote memorization. Done properly, it can be a tool for teaching critical thinking. If this sounds like an oxymoron, let me describe how it was done in my school. In the first three grades, we memorized things by rote, repeating answers back word-for-word. In 4th grade, we still had to memorize facts (that never goes away), but we were now required to rephrase things in our own words, to enhance understanding of the material. By the latter part of the 5th grade, we were routinely asked “opinion” questions during the course of a lesson, and we would have class discussions on these things. For example, there might be something in the history text describing a law that was in force years ago; we would then be asked to compare that to how the same issue was handled in our time, and then asked to tell which method we thought was better, and why. And the phrase “My dad says” or similar statements were acceptable source-statements. The discussion environment brought many different points of view into the pot and led us to consider things we might not have otherwise. A far cry from today’s “wisdom” which tries to tell us an 11-year-old isn’t capable of such reasoning. (Mark, you may be able to use this discussion approach to teach your students critical thinking. I know it worked for us.) By the time we were in 7th and 8th grades, we had left rote learning far behind us, and our social studies classes included subjects like civics, in which we learned exactly how local, state, and Federal governments worked (I even still have my old “Civics of New York State” textbook.)
To conclude, it’s my firm opinion that rote memorization, at least in the primary grades, is the core of teaching critical thinking. You can’t think critically unless you know your basic facts, and memorization trains the mind to learn. Most of us, by the time we were in the fourth grade, had little need to go back and review class material before a test; so well-trained were our memories that it only required paying attention in class, and the material stayed with you for the whole year.
I wish I’d have had a chance to learn under a “Templeton” Looking forward to it here. Thanks Unquiet.
Looking forward to your input also Lionell K Griffith. Sounds like you something to add to the structure here.
L8R all
LL
Leftfoot Leeds wrote: Looking forward to your input also Lionell K Griffith.
When I start seeing something that is both new to me and true, I will offer substantial input as payment. Otherwise, I will simply measure the signal to noise ratio and make infrequent short comments sufficient to pay for the quantum of bandwidth I use.
For anyone interested, Kim Du Toit has an interesting post about liberty, taxes and education over on his blog.
The third part of the outline is the education bit, but the whole post is good.
Sample;
3. We need to eliminate State education of our children. This means we need to close public schools, each and every one of them, and force the education of children back to where it belongs: in the hands of parents and their sponsored educators and by this, I mean home-schooling, private tutors and private schools, none paid for or subsidized by the State.
Read the rest here(scroll past the pin ups-if you must)
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/tos/
Cheers~Svin
That looks really good. Mikey like.
Lionell,
“Creating the pretty pictures for the project is like putting the decorations on a cake without first baking the cake.”
I tend to agree with that sentiment, as a very left-brained person myself, but I’ve learned that most people aren’t interested in Jack Webb’s “Just the facts, Ma’am.”; even those who don’t think they want the purty pitchers. They’ve been conditioned to expect a presentation to achieve a level of aesthetic pleasure. Without that, they think it’s ‘unprofessional’, and distrust it.
At the same time, I’ve noted that directness is often conflated with rudeness, and in this medium, it’s far too easy to have a tone imputed by your readers. When we build good-looking graphics, choose appealing fonts and page layouts, we can soften the blow of ‘brutal’ honesty in the process. Julie Andrews’ suggestion of a spoonful of sugar seems apt here.
And let’s face it; some of the things we’re going to have to discuss in order to improve and restore civilization are going to gore a lot of people’s oxen. They’re already predisposed to call contrary voices ‘uncouth’ or ‘uncivilized’, not to mention ‘divisive’, ‘racist’, and ‘hateful’, even when their pronouncements, couched in ‘caring’ and ‘sympathetic’ terms, logically imply acts antithetical to civilization. We can’t allow ourselves to be pigeon-holed with the cranks who are marginalized as Chicken Littles. The enemies of civilization have the best ad agencies pushing their propaganda; we must not disarm ourselves unilaterally.
I also realize that pictures, music, and such can help even the leftest of left-brained people. My mother set the Greek alphabet to a musical tune, the better to teach my siblings and I. I knew the NAMES of the letters before I even knew what their shapes were, and I even knew that the school where she learned Greek pronounced the name of pi like ‘pee’ instead of ‘pie’, as it’s usually pronounced in math classes.
To this day, when I remember the words of the Preamble to the US Constitution, it is with the tune to which the fine folks at Scholastic Rock set it humming along in my subconscious.
If the pictures don’t inspire you, let not your heart be troubled. But do trust that the substantive work is being done. People have been submitting proposals to the University of Ejectia Library, and work is being done on them. Software more appropriate than the WordPress you see here is being configured to support an online community.
So, what do you know, and can you teach it?
From what I’ve seen, you have an ability to connect cognitive dots where others have not been able to do so. The trick is to be able to slow down to their speed and show them how you got there. Most people have a very narrow window of opportunity after learning something themselves, during which they are still able to explain it, before their thinking is so many levels above the material that they’re unable to do so any more. I gather that you are the sort who likes to be able to trace an unbroken chain of evidence from direct perceptual data all the way up through the highest-order concepts you have integrated into your thinking. That means you can ‘show your work’. Remember that most of the people you’re talking to haven’t taken that journey yet. You could be their tour guide, if you manage to keep the trip from being so uncomfortable that they won’t make it.
The best way to improve the signal/noise ratio is to produce more signal and less noise. And remember that complaining about the noise tends to be itself considered noise. Or at least meta-noise. Which makes this paragraph meta-meta-noise, and this sentence meta-meta-meta-noise. This entire comment will now collapse in a black hole of self-reference. Damn you, Dougman!
Black holes are my fault too?
Okay, I can deal with that.
Has anyone thought of the Earth as being the product of a Black hole?
Like in one of those Star Trek movies, the one with “V-ger”
We’d be the poop of a Black hole.
Dang meh, dang meh, you oughta git-a-rope and hang meh.
Lionell K. Griffith-
That’s certainly fair.
On the other hand, I’ve found that a group always seems nicer when people are “more than fair”. It seems to create a sort of community atmosphere.
Someone said “You can’t eat an elephant all at once, but you can a little at a time.”
/Looking out my bathroom window/
“Yellow”
Elephant Stew
1 elephant
2 rabbits
Brown gravy
Cut elephant into bite-size pieces (should take about 2 months).
Put into a pot(s)with enough brown gravy to cover.
Cook on a keresone stove for four weeks.
This recipe should serve 3,800 people.
If more are expected, add 2 more rabbits.
From the recipe book of the charming and talented wife of Svin~JoAnn the Inscrutable, via Medical Mission, Sisters from Nairobi
regards~S
Lionell,
If you’re looking for the new and true you’d best stick to science journals. They provide me with endless hours of joy and, while I don’t understand half of what I’m reading, I’m damned glad that there are those who do. I am also unspeakably proud of belonging to a culture that insists on the freedom of thought that makes discovery of the new and the true not only possible but imperative.
As I understand it (and correct me if I’m wrong) the main purpose of Ejectia is not to present any new “truth” but to rediscover, preserve and safeguard the verities on which that culture was built.
(The great recipes are a bonus and assure me that I am among friends.)
JMC – I would agree with you regarding the usefulness of rote memorization in early grades.
The problem, however, is that even in some colleges, rote learning is prevalent. After ruining my own education at the local University (no, I’m not going to explain right now), I went to one of those technical colleges which purport to teach you skills to get technical positions. I couldn’t stand it. In 16 weeks, we covered the amount of material in my Electronics class that my Physics class at the University covered in 2 weeks. None of it was theory, just memorizing rules for calculating various unknowns in DC circuits.
The Algebra I class (yes, in a “College”, this was a standard first term course, and after I talked to some of the students, I realized why – hardly any of them had been exposed to Algebra in high school) was the same – the instructor didn’t prove the rules from basic principles, he just delivered them. After two terms, I couldn’t take it anymore and dropped, before my brain froze from lack of stimulation.
USBeast wrote: As I understand it (and correct me if I’m wrong) the main purpose of Ejectia is not to present any new “truth” but to rediscover, preserve and safeguard the verities on which that culture was built.
I agree that is a big part of it.
Isn’t on of the verities that one has a right to be paid for what he produces? If there is nothing new to me here or if the new is not true, what value is it to me? None.
It is not my function in life to give without expectation of some kind of compensation. The compensation need not be money but it needs to be something. I am a trador not a self sacrificial schmuck who seeks to be consumed by one and all without purpose or gainful end. My purpose and gainful ends are mine and mine alone to decide.
Hola everyone. I haven’t been in here in a while, I’ve been having some VERY serious computer problems.
Gideon300,
No offense sir, but you forgot to mention that if someone intends to store ammunition for long periods of time it has to be in a sealed container (preferably a factory can), even many gun owners don’t know how much effect just the temp and himidity changes inside their house (not to mention outside) can have on modern cartridges. And, sorry, but the reason many women and small men have trouble with large caliber guns, is that the gun itself is to light, a 5 foot, 98 lb. woman can fire a .45ACP or even a .44Mag if the gun weighs enough to counteract the recoil (seriously, I saw a woman that size who had never fired a gun before do exactly that today), a light .380 can recoil more than a heavy 44Mag.
Just a thought from a gunsmith in training.
At the moment I have a raging shooters-headache, and I’ve been picking GSR (Gun Shot Residue) boogers for several hours (disgusting, I know, sorry). Today I completed the shooting qualifications that I need for my CCW (License to Carry a Concealed Weapon), scored 236 of 250, not to bad I guess. I’m 100% sure I could have shot 250, I’ve done it before, but considering I’m right-handed and I was shooting left-handed, which I only started training myself to do yesterday (turns out I’m left-eye dominant, and the NRA rules say you have to use the hand on the same side as your dominant eye), I guess it wasn’t really that god awful, but it still hacks me off.
Personally, I prefer the Smith & Wesson M&P40, in fact it’s what I’m wearing open-carry right now as I sit at work at 0200 hrs. The police here in Colorado Springs are finally catching up to me. Over the next few months they will be switching from their Glock .40s to the exact same gun I’ve been wearing for about a year. Imagine that.
The best thing about that is that if I have to shoot someone, the psycho District Attorney here HOPEFULLY can’t run his usual rant about “excessively large caliber weapons specifically meant to kill”, as if there were any other kind of firearm than those “specifically meant to kill”, god, what a moron. It’s just like that poor man named “something” Fish (can’t remember his first name, Harold?) in New Mexico who was convicted of murder because he was using Federal Hydroshock hollow points and the DA convinced the jury that type of hollow point was “excessively lethal” (even though many police departments issue those exact same Federal Hydroshocks as standard rounds), and he was using a 10mm (which consequently is almost the exact same size as a .40, hence, smaller than a .45) which according to the DA is “excessive and much bigger than what police carry”, which anyone with half a brain knows is an lie, especially since cops with a choice will choose a .40 or .45. By the way, he was defending himself against a man with a history of mental illness and violence, who was wielding “only” a stick (i.e. club, and yes it was a club, I saw it in the crime scene photos on CourtTV), and the attacker had two dogs with him, one of which, according to an employee from the animal shelter it came from was “prone to biting and aggressive behavior”, and we all know that if one dog attacks, any dog who considers that dog a member of it’s “pack” will follow suit.
So, lets look at this differently. Mr. Fish dosen’t draw his pistol, finds himself clubbed to the ground, and subsuquently is beaten and bitten to death by a mentally ill man and his aggressive animals, who “just happened” to be camped out next to his car at the trail-head.
Somehow, I just don’t see Fish’s actions as murder. But hey, that’s just me.
By the way, in an interview after the trial, one of the jurors said, and I quote, “I just couldn’t get over the fact that his gun was so much larger than necessary and the bullets he used were so much more lethal than normal ones.”
So, Mr. juror, is that your professional opinion? Or, are you just to stupid to think for yourself?
Another by the way, Mr. Fish was a 50+ year old father of 5 (6?) the oldest of whom I don’t beleive was yet a teenager, he was a school teacher, and an avid hiker who carried his pistol for protection from bears (black), and mountain lions while in the wilderness.
Any of you remember the bruhaha about: Free Tookie Williams!!!! The creator of the Crips street gang who won a prize for writing childrens books from prison, but whom it just so happened was on death row for multiple murders?
I say we try a: Free Fish!!!! campaign. Oh, sure, he’s an “old white guy”, so the liberals aren’t going to do it, especially since he violated his attackers right to kill him, but, you never know, it might work.
ok, rant terminated (with extreme prejudice), sorry bout that.
I am a trador not a self sacrificial schmuck
Cool, no competition from you.
…who seeks to be consumed by one and all…
Yup,”Eat of my Flesh” or if you prefer “Bite me”.
…without purpose or gainful end.
You have your purpose and I have a destiny.
But you needn’t concern yourself with that ’cause it’s mine, all mine, and you can’t have any, A-HA HA HAAAAAAAA
Nice Rant there GWC
“one has a right to be paid for what he produces” – Lionell K. Griffith
Sounds reasonable to me, tho I would prefer ‘one has a right to negotiate the sale of the fruits of his labor.’ I expect you’ll agree that people don’t have a right to produce something nobody wants and still demand payment or set its price.
The Monster asked, So, what do you know, and can you teach it? It occurs to me that question remains unanswered. So, I’m curious, what do you have to offer and what are your prices?
Rickbert asked: I’m curious, what do you have to offer and what are your prices?
I have specified both. The first in an early thread several thousand comments ago. The second in this tread. If its important to you, search for it.
I was going to post something about what I have just recently read here, but have decided against it. I would like to offer an option that I have seen on another board. It is a reputation rating system that might come in handy here.
http://www.orchidboard.com/community/forum-feedback/4575-reputation-new-feature.html
Check it out.
Posted by: G.W.C. | June 25, 2007
Gideon300,
No offense sir, but you forgot to mention that if someone intends to store ammunition for long periods of time it has to be in a sealed container (preferably a factory can), even many gun owners don’t know how much effect just the temp and himidity changes inside their house (not to mention outside) can have on modern cartridges. And, sorry, but the reason many women and small men have trouble with large caliber guns, is that the gun itself is to light, a 5 foot, 98 lb. woman can fire a .45ACP or even a .44Mag if the gun weighs enough to counteract the recoil (seriously, I saw a woman that size who had never fired a gun before do exactly that today), a light .380 can recoil more than a heavy 44Mag.
Just a thought from a gunsmith in training.
==================================================
I take no offence from anything you said. I agree with you.
In my post I was only trying to stir thoughts concerning the need for the citizenry of our nation to be armed and skilled. I have seen too many situations in which an emergency situation came up and caught everybody with their pants down. Just think of Katrina. I’m not trying to be alarmist, but in preparing myself to provide for and protect my family, I try to think of the maximum negative scenario. For instance, what if terrorist cells set off several dirty bombs in several of our major cities simultaneously, and then followed up with widespread militia attacks. There is absolutely no way that our police and National Guard would be able to handle that scenario alone. I am not saying that you, sir, are unaware of the possibility of such a thing happening. I am afraid though, that a large percentage of our population are totally unprepared for such a thing. My belief is that it is not a matter of if, but when. If I am wrong, that is the most desirable. If I am correct, we could be in trouble.
A place in ejectia to discuss weapons is in the making. That will be the place where these discussions can be carried on. I thank you for your response.
Lionell – To suggest the entire group (assuming no one remembers what you have to offer) go back several thousand or so posts to find the information in the haystack is a tad unreasonable. IMHO. The sale of any product is most likely going to produce more if one does some advertising.
Ah.
Lionell’s back.
- MuscleDaddy
Lionell:
It was re-reading such an early thread where I came to the conclusion that you were being misread. In fact, I decided I owed you an apology for having assigned more weight to the reactions to some of your comments than to what I now believe was your motivation for making them.
I really am sorry that I formed that initial opinion; there is no excuse for such intellectual laziness on my part. But I gathered that to a person like you, an apology comes off as hollow words if it isn’t backed up with some evidence that I mean it. That’s why I’m trying to explain to you why, to people who haven’t completely integrated Objectivist epistemology and ethics into their thought processes, comments like:
come off badly. I’ve read enough Rand and Peikoff to understand why you’re saying that, and that you’re not accusing anyone of any bad intentions when you say it. But I’ve also noticed that Objectivists have gotten a bad reputation for being jerks, which the collectivists have been delighted to exploit, precisely because the ethics of self-sacrifice have so successfully been sold that a person defending his right to exist for his own sake has two strikes against him before he even comes to the plate.
Consider the value, to you personally, of a community of thousands (if not millions, dare we dream) of people who want to defend individual liberty against domestic statists and foreign aggressors. This community will have in its University Library works on philosophy of various schools, including the ones whose teachings led to the slaughter of millions during the last century alone. (It must, because if we don’t study such things, we’ll be doomed to fall for the first sophist who throws them at us.) It will have some entries from people who, from your perspective, object to the results of fundamentally flawed philosophies while still clinging to those flawed fundamentals. And some of those people have the unmitigated gall to think that your philosophy is the one that’s flawed!
Unless someone is willing to invest some time and effort in telling your side of the story, that community’s value to you will be greatly diminished; it will be helpful only to the extent that it opposes the exponents of other, even more flawed philosophical systems, such as the Islamists who take their faith in Allah as warrant to separate any head that does not share that faith from its shoulders.
Notice I don’t insult you by asking you to “sacrifice” for the common good, but to make an investment in your own. I can’t guarantee that investment will pay off; if I could do that sort of thing I’d be very popular on Wall Street, and fabulously wealthy by now. But I think it’s worth a try.
But I’m not asking you to invest anything today. I don’t think anyone is expecting you to contribute anything here. If you feel like sending your proposal for a Library submission to the Librarians, do that. If you aren’t ready yet, that’s fine too.
When Ejectia goes on line, come over and look around. You’ll see that you have a chance to positively influence a group of people who may not share your precise philosophical orientation, but working together can reduce the chance you’ll lose your head over religious differences.
“I have specified both. The first in an early thread several thousand comments ago. The second in this tread. If its important to you, search for it” – Lionell K. Griffith
Interesting sales pitch.
Perhaps you misunderstood my question. I do note in the thread above where you express a willingness to offer payment for anything with a sufficient ‘signal to noise’ ratio. Ok, but I am trying to discover what payments you are asking for your services, and a better idea of what services you have on offer. Since you have offered no clear idea of what they might be, I cannot decide whether they would be important enough for me to go searching for more information about them.
At this point I would have long since closed the door on any salesman who treated me in this fashion, but I confess, I was curious. So I went searching. Aside from this thread, I only found them here. I do remember you now. But I confess I could find nothing there I recognize as an answer to my question. I see you have offered your opinions on various subjects, but you have done so freely, and without asking payment. I remain stumped.
It’s possible that I’m simply incapable of understanding you, and that anyone who has that ability would find it too obvious to bother summarizing for the likes of me. But I’ll risk it.
What do you have to offer and what are your prices? Please summarize.
I realize you may feel no need to ‘make a sale’ here, and are in no way obligated to reply in a manner I can comprehend. Without anything else to go on, and in light of your approach to sales and, if I may say, service I am inclined to guess you work for a government bureaucracy, or received your career training at the hands of Ernestine the Telephone Operator.
Apropos of nothing at all, I suppose, a few lines from Kipling:
Mary’s Son
1911
If you stop to find out what your wages will be
And how they will clothe and feed you,
Willie, my son, don’t you go on the Sea.
For the Sea will never need you.
If you ask for the reason of every command,
And argue with people about you,
Willie, my son, don’t you go on the Land,
For the Land will do better without you.
If you stop to consider the work you have done
And to boast what your labour is worth, dear,
Angels may come for you, Willie, my son,
But you’ll never be wanted on Earth, dear!
Hi Lionell,
Happily, I dont have to search. Spotted a fellow objectivist with your first post and put POSIWID in my favorites. Read all the essays that day. I liked the Rand inspired pieces but was really intrigued by your system developement essays. Anyone here interested can read these at:
http://www.dslextreme.com/~posiwid/History/index.htm
Having been a follower of Ms. Rands writings for over 20 years, I have found one thing to be true. Much like religion, people do not like to be gratuitously lectured on Objectivist philosophy. Better that we practice it ourselves and and leave the prostletysing to the evangelicals.
Regards-Svin
Lionell et al -
The issue of value in this or any enterprise is very important to me.
As it stands I will not be a teacher but a student here. I will “take” – but – when the day is thru I am committed wholeheartedly to pass what I learn to the next student willing to learn.
And if, heaven forbid, the SHTF, and it’s me that’s got your back, you need to pray that I have been the student I intend to be. What, then, will be your ROI?
USB: A very wise man, Kipling. And see where ignoring his advice has got us today. ;D
WayneB: Oh, how true that is about technical colleges! I just finished a course in accounting at one. Fortunately, since I had had calc in another college years ago, I didn’t have to take Agebra I. As for that being offered in a college – that’s a separate rant; one that I think, in fact, I’ve posted once before. And I met up with that rote memorization problem in my first college, in a history class. I was only 19 (in 1973) and hadn’t learned yet about professors wanting you to parrot back what opinions they voiced, not to dare have one of your own. I failed the class because my term paper voiced my own opinion, with facts impeccably researched, but none of it agreed with the liberal, iconoclastic view he espoused. And here I thought papers were supposed to be graded on construction and use of evidence to back up statements, not on content. Silly me. (:/)
But the lack of “theory” in technical colleges is one reason I much prefer the system they have in New York City. Mention “technical college” to a New Yorker and he probably will draw a blank, because they have something called “vocational high schools.” (I may have mentioned these before, too.) You have all the standard academic classes; the difference is, where regular high schools have study hall, you have trade classes. While it means you actually have to do your homework at home (anathema to most of today’s high-schoolers), you’re getting your trade education in four years instead of cramming it into two, which means you can get all the theory behind the facts. I think the “technical college” system is a big gyp, but then, it’s only designed to crank out workers, not teach them to actually *shudder* think!
On a different topic, but distantly related, it seems to me that, at its core, the root purpose of Ejectia is supposed to be to keep our spirits up, to “stick to our guns,” as it were, while the rest of the world around us is going to hell in a handbasket. Given that, and all the things there are for us to rant about and get off our chests, perhaps our sub-motto ought to be “Illigitimi non carborundum.” ;D;D;D;D
Andrea: What’s ROI stand for? Can’t figure that one out.
JMC, I interpreted it as Return On Investment.
Good morning all.
A drive through post, todays
brew, Green Tea.
It’s been a full and busy week,
and more to come!
Hope all is well with Ejectia’s work in progress and everyone is
keeping their chins up.
USB,
Bah! Your quote reveals nothing but mere sophistry before the inescapable wisdom laid bare before us!
Imagine what a wonderful world it would be if everyone completely integrated Objectivist epistemology and ethics into their thought processes.
If everyone were determined to be not a self sacrificial schmuck, but one to be paid for what he produces – and were just as determined to not produce without that payment!
Ah, if only all people eschewed the notion of ever having a function in life to give without expectation of some kind of compensation.
Every man an island.
Each connected to the other solely by ties of sweet, sweet commerce – giving nothing, sacrificing nothing, not wasting the effort of consideration for others who will, in all likelihood, be of no direct compensatory value to the one, the only, the most overwhelmingly important – Self.
And just think of how much easier – how much less complicated it would be for each of us, for then by the simple expedience of not having to expend unnecessary levels of energy on people from whom we do not actively need something, the terrible effort of civil discourse would be alleviated from everyone – each of us going through life blurting out our thoughts and opinions in the shortest, most blunt way possible, without expending regard for audience, context or circumstance (to conserve energy for those moments leading to actual compensation, of course).
…and naturally, allowing us to logically know and recognize any display of such otherwise-needless pantomimes as ‘kindness’ or ‘consideration’ toward others as completely disingenuous and driven only by the promise or hope of real, concrete compensation.
*sigh*
My very being at once relaxes in anticipation of titanic effort not wasted, while fairly bristling with eagerness toward the objective of the rewards I shall reap as I strive forward in Herculean effort, to the exclusion of all but that objective itself!
(and if my soul curls into some dark corner to shiver and make whimpering sounds… well,… stupid soul, anyway)
- MuscleDaddy
Monster – correct.
Dougman obscures.
‘Morning Maggie.
- MuscleDaddy
“Thank you Herman, you may go now.” – Del Close, 1959
Monster, your patience and generosity on display serve to remind me of the high ideals that of themselves resonate with this audience, and with your careful attendance make the practical example most visible. Thank you so very much, for I do not possess this restraint.
I like the purity of the city in the sky skin. Beautiful. Need more images though. How about the rainstorm that is below us? The sunset that surrounds us? The rainbow that goes through us?
Otto, I’m finding my task complicated by the massive pile of straw in close proximity to an open flame, which is a fire hazard.
I’ll attempt what may be impossible, because it’s worth doing.
MuscleDaddy, imagine for a moment that you do someone a favor. You’re not looking for anything directly in return for it, like a medal or payback with interest; you do it because you think it’s the right thing to do. Maybe what you’re giving up to do the favor is so small that you don’t even think you’re giving anything at all. It could be something as insignificant as holding the door open for someone else, or letting someone merge into trafic from the onramp. You may never see this person again, but you’ll see your face in the mirror every day and feel better looking that guy in the eye because of it.
Then the strangest thing happens. Someone (either the person you’re trying to help, or a third party) seems to actually resent the help you’re giving. It’s not good enough. You owe your beneficiary more than that. It’s not you giving what’s yours, because it was his by right all along, and how dare you be so parsimonious in giving him his due! Every dime you leave in your pocket, you “stole” from the ‘less fortunate’ person you insufficiently helped. Not even Dougman can take the rap for you on this, you’re too guilty for such frivolity.
You aren’t allowed to feel good about what you’ve done, nor entitled to that credit at the FIBoK, because it wasn’t charity; it was your duty, of which you’ve done a crappy job. In fact, because you connected the dots and realized that helping him was, in the long term, helping yourself, they say you’re just a selfish jerk, or some other convenient name like ‘racist’. (See also: Kanye West.) Your motives will never be pure enough to satisfy these critics, and you’ll never be able to satisfy the unearned debt they claim you owe.
How does that make you feel about helping him, or for that matter, the next guy?
Hi Lionell,
Happily, I dont have to search. Spotted a fellow objectivist with your first post and put POSIWID in my favorites. Read all the essays that day. I liked the Rand inspired pieces but was really intrigued by your system developement essays. Anyone here interested can read these at:
http://www.dslextreme.com/~posiwid/History/index.htm
Having been a follower of Ms. Rands writings for over 20 years, I have found one thing to be true. Much like religion, people do not like to be gratuitously lectured on Objectivist philosophy. Better that we practice it ourselves and and leave the preaching to the evangelicals.
Regards-Svin
Lionell K. Griffith- Some people are offended? Yes. So what?
The selfish don’t do well in society (unless they disguise themselves of course). This is because they appear so unfriendly to others.
Lionell, you started out with so much promise, with a goal to help others learn. It’s sad that at the end of your life, you’ve decided that helping others — that even being kind to others — is merely a fool’s errand signifying nothing. It conjures images of “A Christmas Carol” shot through with “It’s a Wonderful Life”, but friendless, without the happy endings; where instead, the principals go to their lonely miserable graves believing that selfishness is the highest calling and anything less is foolhardy.
In reading your thoughts, I am reminded of a Shunderson quote. The determinedly selfish always remind me of it. Here, I’ll paraphrase it for you:
MuscleDaddy,
Excellent parody of Objectivism. LMAO!
Regards~Svin
“Imagine what a wonderful world it would be if everyone completely integrated Objectivist epistemology and ethics” – MuscleDaddy
So, let me get this straight: I will be Objectified. Resistance is … Farcical?
And here I was having such a good time with this particular variant of social grooming.
Monster,
To answer your question:
The effect on helping ‘him’ is that I will stop (thanks I don’t need, but neither abuse).
The effect on helping the next guy: negligible. Everyone gets their chance, and you didn’t make the last guy act the way he did.
I help people because I can – because I came up under the teaching of ‘having the ability gives you the responsibility’(Of course I should – I can) – and while I will address that motivation in conversation/theory, in practice I give it no more thought than that (before, during or after)
It’s what Captain America would do.
(that’s the Cap from my childhood, rather than the subsequent abomination)
Now, I temper that with common sense – I know that if I ‘good-samaritan’ myself to death, I’ll then be no good to anyone.
I also freely admit to having a hierarchy of ‘who is more important to me’, realize that this flies in the face of ‘all life is equal’, and am perfectly okay with the accompanying debit from my FIBoK account. (for instance, given the choice between Monopticus and nearly anyone else, I could burn any one of you down where you stand and not look back)
Ultimately my point (if I can be said to have one) is that I find both the people in your example (it’s-your-fault-for-not-opening-a-vein-to-let-the-poor-drink-your-blood!!!) AND those who would think me a hopeless RUBE for expending ANY energy without payment – to be intractable extremists who are ultimately damaging to any honorable society.
And I feel no particular compulsion to remain silent when faced with such
- MuscleDaddy
USbeast,
Thanks for the Kipling.
Because “a gift demands a gift”, I’m sure you can stand to read this old chestnut one more time. I know I never tire of it.
Svin
[IF]
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream–and not make dreams your master,
If you can think–and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ‘em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings–nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And–which is more–you’ll be a Man, my son!
–Rudyard Kipling
G.W.C.- and the NRA rules say you have to use the hand on the same side as your dominant eye
As an NRA firearms instructor, I’d like to mention that it doesn’t sound like an “NRA rule” to me.
qwer,
“It’s sad that at the end of your life,…”
You rock.
Svin,
Thanks!
- MuscleDaddy
The Monster | June 25, 2007 11:18 AM
“You aren’t allowed to feel good………”
Not allowed? Says who? My happiness is dependent on such a one’s opinion of me?
“How does that make you feel about helping him,” Awe. Absolute awe at the audacity. Have been known to go hide around the corner and LMAO. Gotta be careful though, recipient of that reaction would most likely see red.
“or for that matter, the next guy?:” I can’t give you numbers but were I a betting woman I would say nine out of ten would be happy to see me coming.
Either way I win. I either get entertained or a feel good.
Now if it happens (every day) in politics……..I just make another mark in my little black book.
Bill, I’m a longtime reader, love your essays, and think Ejectia is a great idea. However, I think the proposed licensing is a non-starter. There are lots of people with extensive real-world experience who simply won’t contribute if they’re forced to grant a perpetual, royalty-free license. I’d hate to see Ejectia fizzle out and die before it really gets started. It would be much more appropriate to allow authors to choose their own Creative Commons license for the content they contribute.
Muscledaddy .. there could indeed be some real positives to being an island. In today’s world, I find I spend at least 10 hours a month (each) working without pay for 3 organizations I belong to. I derive no value out of them except for the enjoyment at seeing others derive some benefit from my work,. OK, sure, I learn more about coding and websites by managing all the websites. I learn about planning and working on stuff nothing like work, and I get to see demos on woodworking techniques … but I don’t get paid. In fact, I pay to belong to all 3 organizations. Just think of the additional time (and solitude) if I were to become an island.
Heck, I spent 4 hours last week building a route to lead some other motorcycle riders, and had planned on leading them on the tour. That fact that I’ll get enjoyment out of that … far more than sitting home and watching the idiot box … doesn’t overcome the fact that I should be telling my fellow riders that my time is valuable and I expect them to all contribute to the PeteFund! That’ll gain my additional time since I won’t actually have to lead any rides in the future … cool!
I think we’re making some fine progress here:
Rather than considering it an affront to civility that you’ve just declared your willingness to ‘burn down’ me or any of us, I applaud your honesty and good judgement. I trust you’ll extend the same favor. But you might be surprised to know that there are indeed people who would call you a heartless, selfish monster for valuing some over others. That sort of thing is virtually guaranteed to earn you the ‘racist’ label, which objectively means simply that the leftist who applies it can’t refute your points rationally, but this way he declares you subhuman, and your points therefore unworthy of consideration. (Ah, the irony goes to TWELVE!)
And we’ve established that you help people for selfish reasons, and you seem to be aware of that fact. This is good, because you have shown that you don’t require direct monetary benefit to be acting in your long-term self-interest, and furthermore to understand that’s the case. You understand that ‘payment’ takes many forms. Sometimes the only payment you want is … respect.
Apparently, monomaniacal obsession with immediate pecuniary compensation is an attribute that only Objectivists possess. When they insist that a person has the right to just compensation for his work, you’ve got them figured out: they only, exclusively mean Cash Money Now, without any regard for any other way in which someone may be rewarded for their contributions. Maybe you could enlighten them so they’re not so short-sighted.
With that in mind, let us return to our original problem, the insistence by collectivists that you helping someone is not you freely giving your own property, but your obligation to give them what is already theirs, by virtue of the fact that you have it and they don’t.
Now, I’d like you to consider not one single instance of this attitude, but a raging torrent, from schoolteachers, preachers, politicians, journalists, music, movies, TV, books, magazines,… everywhere you turn, the morality you’re expected to follow explicitly states that you, personally have no value at all, and it is your duty to {God|The People|The Fatherland|Mankind|Nature} to serve a Greater Good than your own grubby self-interest. You may not even ‘sacrifice’ yourself for your children; nor for your friends or neighbors, their grandchildren, nor those who share your values. We know that those are fundamentally selfish acts. When you help your friends, you’re still stealing; who gives you the right to hand out favors to people you like? Cronyism!
Indeed, the only way you can begin to prove your worthiness is to give all you have to those who most despise you, who are the enemies of what you hold dear. You have to systematically destroy the productive and effective in the name of “fairness” to the destructive and ineffective. THAT is pure sacrifice, and by allowing it to be the highest virtue, we surrender the battle before it is even joined.
Now, to my way of thinking, the two ‘extremists’ you’ve called forth are hardly symmetrical. On the one hand, you’ve got someone who thinks you are the sacrificial lamb for some cause or another, completely worthless in your own right, to be slaughtered whenever the demands of The Struggle dictate.
On the other, you’ve got someone who says flat out you are in charge of your life, and you’re entitled to decide how the product of your labors gets to be used. Only the rightful owner can justly give something away. Then can you practice true charity, rather than the phony, self-righteous bleating of those who seize your property by force, then congratulate each other on how much of it they spend for good causes. The only thing they have in common is that they’re ‘extremists’.
I’ll never top what the late Senator Barry Goldwater said on the issue of ‘extremism’, so I won’t even try.
The Monster,
“…you’ll see your face in the mirror every day and feel better looking that guy in the eye because of it.”
Dangit, I thought I made that up myself.
Well said, sir. All of it.
Andrea, the ‘not allowed’ is by their morality. I’m thrilled to hear that you don’t allow them to dictate to you how you should feel. It’s a daunting challenge, with so many cultural institutions trying to program you to think that way.
And I’m not sure I want to know any more about that little black book, other than that none of those marks are mine.
I’ll never top what The Monster said on the issue of ‘Objectivism’, so I won’t even try.
Svin
Well now, between Mr.Griffith and The Monster I think I might have learned something about myself, my ego. Something that actually lines up perfectly with Lionell’s “It is not my function in life to give without expectation of some kind of compensation.”
I can’t get into it now since visiting hours are over but I will certainly write it down to preserve it.
At any rate, I extend an apology and a Thank You to Mr. Griffith and The Monster.
Enlightenment comes from the most unexpected sources sometimes.
Nathan M, the very license you’re objecting to was created to resolve a problem in how a prior license could be interpreted. Given how lawyers operate, I’ll go so far as to say ‘would’ be interpreted.
Bill can’t have different licenses on all contributed material. He’s got to have something simple and consistent. This language gives him the legal cover to use our contributions any way he sees fit, including for other contributors to create derived works, while simultaneously protecting our rights to use those same contributions in other venues, should we decide to do so.
For example, we can’t have submissions with anything less than perpetual licenses, because that conflicts with a fundamental principle of how the University is to be organized: Once an article is published, it should be available indefinitely, so that future scholars can reference it and build upon it. Only in the case of a legal or ethical reason to withdraw one should it be done, and we should be vigilant to prevent such situations from arising. To accept anything, knowing that it’s only for a limited time, would probably be an equal ‘non-starter’
The Monster -
“Andrea, the ‘not allowed’ is by their morality.” Understood. But you see, it’s their morality, their problem. Not mine.
“I’m thrilled to hear that you don’t allow them to dictate to you how you should feel. It’s a daunting challenge, with so many cultural institutions trying to program you to think that way.”
But this really isn’t anything new if you are my age. I don’t remember a time when I didn’t have some one or some institution trying to tell me what to think and how to live my life. One of the biggest challenges in this regard was having two children and seeing it happening to them. It takes constant vigilance – and possibly a good nose to smell out the rats in sheep clothing! Today’s crop of wannabe mind benders are possibly more smooth, know how to pull at the heartstrings or guilt a little better than those I grew up with……but they are the same.
Dougman, apology accepted and you are welcome.
Svinrod, thank you for making the effort to go to my site and read my works. That you were capable of being intrigued by the best and most technical part of it, is compensation enough.
The Monster wrote: [Either} you’ve got someone who thinks you are the sacrificial lamb for some cause or another, completely worthless in your own right, to be slaughtered whenever the demands of The Struggle dictate. [or} you’ve got someone who says flat out you are in charge of your life, and you’re entitled to decide how the product of your labors gets to be used.
A person’s character can be well measured by his response to those two sides.
Monster sez:
Indeed, the only way you can begin to prove your worthiness is to give all you have to those who most despise you, who are the enemies of what you hold dear. You have to systematically destroy the productive and effective in the name of “fairness” to the destructive and ineffective. THAT is pure sacrifice, and by allowing it to be the highest virtue, we surrender the battle before it is even joined.”
You might want to be careful with that – that’s some pretty specific imagery, there – wouldn’t want someone shouting you down as a ‘godbag christianist’ or going off about Venusians causing global warming…
Also, you’re off on one or two (or three)points:
1) I never said that the Objectivist is ONLY interested in Cash Money as his compensation, but rather that he will not undertake to contribute without his WIIFM (What’s In It For Me) firmly covered.
2)Not being willing to accept abuse for helping someone is NOT the same thing as needing ‘respect’ as compensation for help availed.
3)You are incorrect in assuming asymmetry in the salient point of extremism – that central point being that EACH would decry me, personally, as either a STUPID, EVIL or some other level of ‘deficient’ based on my non-adherance to their ideology
… whereas looking from my point of view (while recognizing and accepting the shortcomings and messy bits contained therein), I can only object to their actions and the obviously negative effects of the same.
To the matter of such Collectivists as would attempt the ‘giving them only what is already theirs by right’-business: Those worthies may think what they like about what someone is ‘owed’ or ‘deserves’ – I’ll go right on making my decisions based on what I feel I have to give.
In that sense, I ‘turn’ for morality in the one direction you didn’t list: Inward.
- MuscleDaddy
Lionell, do you understand what I mean about connecting the dots for the people who haven’t made it to the mountaintop yet?
I too toddled over to check out your writing. Of course, I found a lot of it to be familiar, either from my reading or my own thinking, but also something remarkably refreshing in your discussion of software design.
It’s a cliche now that any list of user ‘requirements’ for software include “Ponies”, to reinforce the less-than-realistic nature of so much of it. You’re the first person I’ve seen say that is a completely bass-ackward way to get a job done, and that it’s best to just honestly tell the users they can’t have the ponies, because the ponies have nothing to do with the job they’re trying to do. Besides, they’ll probably just turn the oode base into a pile of steaming manure.
For those interested, Lionell listed his talents in the “Under Old Management” thread on April 26th.
Lionell, to this point I have remained silent. I can remain silent no more. Both Monster and MuscleDaddy have beat around the bush; allow daddyquatro to be blunt.
This mode of communication is purely textual; I cannot hear your voice or read your body language. All I can surmise of you are the words and phrasing that you use.
Frankly sir, you come across as arrogant and condescending.
Looking forward to your input also Lionell K Griffith. Sounds like you something to add to the structure here.
L8R all
LL
Posted by: Leftfoot Leeds | June 24, 2007 11:05 AM
Leftfoot Leeds wrote: Looking forward to your input also Lionell K Griffith.
When I start seeing something that is both new to me and true, I will offer substantial input as payment. Otherwise, I will simply measure the signal to noise ratio and make infrequent short comments sufficient to pay for the quantum of bandwidth I use.
Posted by: Lionell K. Griffith | June 24, 2007 11:32 AM
Leftfoot offered you a friendly greeting. The proper response, among civilized people is to acknowledge that greeting. When someone wishes you good day you are under no obligation to return the sentiment but do not be surprised if your persistent answer of “Bah Humbug!” earns you the reputation of grouch.
It costs you nothing to be civil, sir. In fact, good manners are the bare minimum asked of you to maintain civil discourse. Your compensation will be civil discourse returned. I’m beginning to suspect that you are seeking other compensation.
D4
Stan Ely
DCMSly, TAMN!
BTW, you’ll find the origin of that tag line about 3000 comments ago.
“1) I never said that the Objectivist is ONLY interested in Cash Money as his compensation, but rather that he will not undertake to contribute without his WIIFM (What’s In It For Me) firmly covered.”
If by that you mean that he’ll be fully aware of the choice before he makes it, its likely consequences, make an assessment of whether those consequences are aligned with his rational self-interest, act in accordance with that assessment, and feed back the results of that round of choices back into his future decision-making processes, then all I can say is I wish more people were as diligent.
“2)Not being willing to accept abuse for helping someone is NOT the same thing as needing ‘respect’ as compensation for help availed.”
The disrespect of your right to the product of your labor is precisely the abuse at issue. How else can politicians speak of a reduction in marginal tax rates as ‘giving’ to those who ‘receive’ the tax cuts, if it is not because they consider every penny they fail to extract from your flesh to be the ‘gift’ of their beneficence? You can call that ‘disrespect’ or ‘abuse’, or even some words we shouldn’t use here, and I’ll not argue with any of them.
Unfortunately, if you sign off on their morality of sacrifice, you’re writing them a blank check. When you howl about being treated shabbily at their hands, they’ll just remind you that they’re pure of heart, and you’re just being selfish.
“EACH would decry me, personally, as either a STUPID, EVIL or some other level of ‘deficient’ based on my non-adherance to their ideology”
Personally? I’ve certainly seen that sort of language from the Marcotte (looks rather like Tourette, eh?) contingent. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Objectivist say that someone who hasn’t reached a particular conclusion of theirs is any of those things. They have pretty harsh words for the ideas, but the people are generally more to be pitied than pilloried, as victims of lifelong programming by the truly evil people who know they’re poisoning minds.
When an Objectivist engages you in discussion, it’s because they want to educate you to understand why your efforts treating symptoms instead of the underlying disease are misdirected. They don’t think you’re inherently mentally deficient, or they wouldn’t waste the time. They see you objecting to the same disease, so they think you can be educated. When they disengage, it’s because they realize there will be no meeting of the minds, and leave you to your own devices.
Thank you, D4.
I read all of Rand’s work one summer (including “The Night of January 16th” and “The Unconquered”) and I didn’t recall condescension being an objectivist virtue.
No pity requested from this corner, at least until I’m old enough to have my steak pureed before I can eat it.
There is no one best teacher. I’ve been influenced with good lessons from teachers harsh and ascerbic, and gentle and playful. The best teachers show that they can learn from the other side, or from the student.
Monster, as much as I appreciate your education in explaining LKG, and it helps build my patience to have the understanding you have developed with your leadership in the discussion, I’ve really seen no such initiative from the person you are explaining, and frankly find the detached superiority to be out of balance and I do not trust it: for it is not balanced with the heart, which is not to be dismissed in a human life.
All of us as individuals will necessarily be separated as islands from time to time. And yet we spontaneously do come to each others aid, without brainwashing or coersion, without the mandate or force of the collective manifest in the prior arguments, because that generosity of spirit is one of the things we recognize that is among the best of our values. Even without proof, I’m willing to say I believe it is essential for our survival as a species to be able to take such actions. In this respect, I view MuscleDaddy’s commonsense don’t-tread-on-me hierarchied loyalty preference model closer to the center of sensibility and he rightly views with suspicion both extremes of collectivism and the isolation of the objectivist. Sorry, I don’t think either of them deserve capitalization just at the moment.
Yes, I’d prefer the reasoned-seasoned decision making process of the objectivist over the lemming control of the far left, but my point is they both lack the heart.
MD I don’t mean to speak for you or anyone else, you just seemed to me to be the most honest in your “take me as I am not as I think I am” center.
“If by that you mean that he’ll be fully aware of the choice before he makes it, its likely consequences, make an assessment of whether those consequences are aligned with his rational self-interest, act in accordance with that assessment, and feed back the results of that round of choices back into his future decision-making processes, then all I can say is I wish more people were as diligent.”
Which I suppose would be nice, except that that’s not what I meant – I meant (and was pretty sure I said) that the Objectivist is looking for the ROI, the Profit Margin, the WIIFM – and that if it doesn’t break significantly in his favor, he’s NOT ON BOARD.
If you’re a shareholder, you hope that a CEO comes along who’s an objectivist – if you’re getting beat down by a couple of goblins in a lonely gas station parking lot, you hope something ELSE comes along.
“The disrespect of your right to the product of your labor is precisely the abuse at issue. “
No. The matter of ‘respect’ was that you had suggested that it was MY WIIFM, and that withholding that ‘respect’ would cause me to selfishly withhold my assistance – I pointed out that there’s a whole wide range between ‘withholding respect’ and ‘abuse’.
“Unfortunately, if you sign off on their morality of sacrifice, you’re writing them a blank check.”
Covered that – I sign off on MY morality of sacrifice – keeps down the number of people I want to hold accountable – keeps most of the beatings internal.
“But I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Objectivist say that someone who hasn’t reached a particular conclusion of theirs is any of those things.”
I respectfully direct you to Lionell’s previous comments on people who belive in God…any God.
“When an Objectivist engages you in discussion, it’s because they want to educate you to understand why your efforts treating symptoms instead of the underlying disease are misdirected.”
Again, part of the problem – when an Objectivist engages you in conversation, it’s from the standpoint of his lofty and superior understanding of the universe on the topic of Why You’re Wrong.
When it turns out that you won’t come around to accepting his ‘rightness’, he takes his ball and goes home, (or at least says he’s going to) since clearly you are incapable of coming up with anything New or True.
I’ve only rarely come across an evangelical Objectivist who DOESN’T scrape all condescending toward Others.
- MuscleDaddy
Ripper,
Thank you,
Let me check my bookshelf.
(from left to right)
Anthem.
The New Left:The Anti-Industrial Revolution.
The Virtue of Selfishness.
The Romantic Manifesto.
The Early Ayn Rand.
The Fountainhead.
Atlas Shrugged.
Philosophy:Who Needs It?
The Night of January 16th.
We the Living.
(Missing at the moment) An Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology
I’ve read then all; several times.
Also “The Passion of Ayn Rand”
She was a brilliant woman. She was also subject to the many slings and arrows that flesh is heir to.
At the height of “The Objectivist Society” she would judge a person’s moral worth by their taste in music.
I guess my passion for Boston would doom me to Objectivist fire and brimstone.
Objectivism spoke to me as a young man; then I had kids.
There is NO excuse for bad manners.
Please, Thank You, You’re Welcome, I’m Sorry, Yes Ma’am, and No Sir are the grease on the squeaky wheels of a civilized society. I’ll call you a butthead to your face: But I’ll do it politely.
Also The New Intellectual and the journals – The Objectivist (1962-71) and The Ayn Rand Letter (1971-76).
A couple of things struck me as odd, when I read them. The first was that she was certainly correct – anyone who’s looked at the Capitol Asset Pricing Model (CAPM) or a Black
Looks to me that the character of the posters is being well measured. Its interesting how that measure has a binary result.
One side finds merit or fault in the ideas and their application in the real world. The other side finds fault or merit in the holder of the ideas based upon the feelings the ideas engender.
Evenin’ all.
I’m celebrating my birthday today. She Who Must Be Obeyed bought me a cigar and a sixpack of Guinness. I am currently enjoying both.
I have spent the last hour reading Mr. Griffith’s essays. I confess a compete ignorance of software engineering. It wasn’t that long ago that I thought HTML was short for HotMail. I extend to him the same respect I have for anyone engaged in an arduous, mentally demanding enterprise. I will tread softly past their quarters and bother them only in the case of extreme need.
That said: The problem I have with Objectivism is the same problem I have with any other “ism”. It insists that its “Truth” is the ultimate “Truth” and that anyone who professes to believe otherwise is either a hypocrite or a superstitious idiot.
Being an ugly, smelly beast I cannot deny the possibility that I am both.
That possibility does not bother me in the least.
If I feel that I can contribute something here, something that will ensure the survival of the civilization that has given me and mine the opportunities to grow, progress and thrive, Ejectia can have it free of charge.
Anyone else needs to have a very large nose.
Otto, it has not been my purpose to explain a specific person’s positions; for it would be arrogant on my part to assume I know what is in someone’s mind. Instead, I’ve tried to explain, based on my understanding thereof, a school of philosophy with which I’m familiar. I’ve tried to bridge between that school and those who feel somehow insulted by its precepts. It appears that I’ve been a miserable failure at it.
“And yet we spontaneously do come to each others aid, without brainwashing or coersion [sic], without the mandate or force of the collective manifest in the prior arguments, because that generosity of spirit is one of the things we recognize that is among the best of our values.”
Indeed we do. But it is precisely that generosity of spirit that is threatened by the morality that holds sacrifice as the highest value, as something owed rather than given freely. The statist programs that trade taxes and impersonal bureaucrats for voluntary charity trade on that spirit even as they squash it.
Now why do we consider it to be such an important value? Have we ever really analyzed it, or do we just take it as a matter of faith? Does it somehow cheapen that spirit of generosity to perform that analysis, if people have determined that it is in their long-term, rational self-interest to behave ‘generously’? The reaction I got to the ‘Bank of Karma’ reference suggests that it does. If so, it is precisely because people have been told that self-interest is wrong somehow.
It is precisely that teaching that Objectivism, well, objects to. It’s so ingrained in our culture that self-interest is inherently evil that people are reluctant to admit that it even enters into their mental calculus. When the word ‘selfish’ is such a powerful epithet, then it’s no wonder Leviathan continues to expand its stranglehold on society.
Hi?
It is one thing to evaluate ideas in the abstract as they relate to mechanics of the real world. It is another thing to treat feelings as an abstraction that don’t belong in the real world.
That is why Spock didn’t understand Kirk. But then, Spock did align with the Federation. Here’s the deal – Kirk cracks a joke, and all we get from Spock is a raised eyebrow? What happened to teh funny?
The Monster-
Understood. But, as with all groups, there are likely better and worse representatives of the Objectivist group. Perhaps, I’ve been unlucky in this regard. And while I strongly believe in individualism, self-reliance and individual responsibility, I don’t really think that a group of Objectivists could form a viable social interaction framework absent being embedded in the usual economic milieu provided by the rest of us. But I am pleased to see people trying Objectivism; some people seem to like the ideas involved. And I always look forward to reading your posts, so please do keep it up. Thanks.
Speaking as a person who thinks feelings are way overvalued both in our current culture and in Star Trek…
Civility is not an irrelevant abstraction, it’s the quality that allows millions of inherently territorial and aggressive apes to not only not kill each other over matters of tribe, but cooperate well enough build an advanced civilization and share knowledge around without all that ape baggage setting the whole thing aflame. Rejecting its relevance altogether (or worse, attributing its presence to fuzzy-headedness and its absence to the strength of logical correctness) leads to nothing productive.
Monster, I do not perceive that you have failed at all, actually you have been very helpful. I gather that the various camps have their own definition of what constitutes insult. Whether or not we stew in it will depend on all engaged to disengage, or hopefully, move it to a more appropriate forum (I thought there had been an understanding to put moratorium in effect until the more favorable environment can be offered).
Also, I’m pretty clear on the difference between sacrifice owed and given freely, and would venture that by and large the attendance here follows the latter.
Otto Gass-
Lovely. Couldn’t agree more with that last thought. Thanks.
Looks to me that the character of the posters is being well measured. Its interesting how that measure has a binary result.
One side finds merit or fault in the ideas and their application in the real world. The other side finds fault or merit in the holder of the ideas based upon the feelings the ideas engender.
I don’t agree.
I, for one, have measured your ideas and find that in most cases I agree with them. I don’t find them particularly significant, though. They are self-evident. Gravity points down, the sun is hot, wealth is created and society benefited by people working in their own self interest. Greed is good.
I do have a visceral reaction to being told that these ideas are sweeping and grand, and that I am not worthy of them.
Lionell,
I’m not sure how much finer a point I can put on this but I will try.
Your ideas are always welcome here. That’s the one and only reason we are here. The free and open exchange of ideas is the foundation of Ejectia. However, in order to enjoy a free and open exchange of ideas, a modicum of respect must be maintained.
You, sir have shown no such respect.
At every turn you have been offered good will and welcome.
“Svinrod, thank you for making the effort to go to my site and read my works. That you were capable of being intrigued by the best and most technical part of it, is compensation enough.”
Do you have no idea how condescending and arrogant that reads!
One more time.
In big letters.
THIS IS A TEXTUAL MEDIUM.
The words you choose and how you phrase them…
matters.
And now for something completely different…
It’s astounding
Time is fleeting
Madness takes its toll.
So listen closely
Not for very much longer
I’ve got to keep control.
“If you’re a shareholder, you hope that a CEO comes along who’s an objectivist – if you’re getting beat down by a couple of goblins in a lonely gas station parking lot, you hope something ELSE comes along.”
And yet it’s the Objectivists that find the rational self-interest calculation comes down strongly on the side of squashing those goblins, while their less-ideologically pure brethren in the LP (I may have insulted both camps with the B-word there) come to the opposite opinion, which is roughly ‘who appointed us the world’s goblin police’? My personal self-interest calculation is clear. If I’m in that parking lot, those goblins are in trouble. Yeah, it’s easy for me to say that, being as Monstrous as I am. But it was true when I was a kid looking out for even smaller kids who got picked on, probably because I remembered the time when two older guys ganged up on me for a beat-down.
“The matter of ‘respect’ was that you had suggested that it was MY WIIFM”
That was a generic ‘you’, not a personal one. Sorry about that. Lacking non-text cues, and all…. The point is that people have their reasons for helping others, and there’s nothing wrong with those reasons including some minimal standard of behavior on the part of the people bein helped.
“Covered that – I sign off on MY morality of sacrifice – keeps down the number of people I want to hold accountable”
I don’t think your morality IS ‘sacrifice’, because you’re investing something for what you think is more valuable. This is a Good Thing, not an insult, despite the common notion that ‘selfishness’ is an unmitigated evil. I think you have your rational self-interest at heart when you adopt a moral code that doesn’t require someone give you a picture of a dead president every time you do something good for them, but recognizes that it will balance out in the long run, especially where reputation is involved. That system works pretty well as long as the vast majority of people with whom you interact do so in a way that benefits you both, increasing the quality of life for everyone involved. Where it breaks down is when the notion becomes prevalent that certain people get to force you to engage in a one-sided transaction, where they take more from you than you get from them.
“I respectfully direct you to Lionell’s previous comments on people who belive in God…any God.”
Try as I might, I don’t see where he said that anyone, personally, was either “STUPID”, “EVIL” or … ‘deficient’. He has described religion in pretty unflattering terms, but not said that religious people are any of those things you’ve mentioned. (Believers say ‘hate the sin; love the sinner.’ At least my belief does. YMMV.) He didn’t even go after the person who explicitly said that Bill’s latest essay is fundamentally flawed, because it’s not addressing the underlying problem of Man’s Sinful Nature with a double dose of Old Time Religion. He did seem miffed that she did it while others were comparing Ejectia to Galt’s Gulch, the holiest shrine in Randism. So I’ve chosen not to take his anti-religion remarks personally, as they were specifically targetted at that juxtaposition.
“Again,. . . it’s from the standpoint of his lofty and superior understanding of the universe on the topic of Why You’re Wrong.”
Well, it’d be pretty stupid to try to persuade someone to take your position if you thought you were wrong and they were right! Unless you had Men With Badges and Guns to order everyone to do it anyway. Some Minions armed with frickin’ laser beams might come in handy too. And close air support.
“When it turns out that you won’t come around to accepting his ‘rightness’, he takes his ball and goes home, (or at least says he’s going to) since clearly you are incapable of coming up with anything New or True.”
I infinitely prefer that to the folks who, if you’ll not submit to their faith, or accept second-class-citizen status, feel it is their duty to kill you, dirty kufir!
The “(or at least says he’s going to)” bit requires only a trip down memory lane to show that after saying that he couldn’t contribute under those circumstances, he did in fact ‘go home’ until Our host invited him to return to discuss the matter. An hour and a half later, he did just that. This conversation produced the language that everyone agreed upon until the Creative Commons suggestion a few hours ago.
“I’ve only rarely come across an evangelical Objectivist who DOESN’T scrape all condescending toward Others.”
It’s an occupational hazard. In that respect, they’re not unlike the evangelical Believers, who think you’re going to Hell if you don’t Believe exactly the same way they do. Except for those guys who think it’s their job to send you there personally. Those guys are serious buttheads.
The Monster-
Well, no disrespect intended, but my morality holds sacrifice as the highest value, as something given freely rather than owed. I’m not quite sure to who’s you’re referring.
Probably depends on the people in question and who’s spirit is being cheapened. I don’t find it in my long-term, rational self-interest to behave ‘generously’, or generously without quotes, for that matter. But I suppose one could look at anything and conjure a ‘self-interest’ explanation for it to suit any viewpoint. Goodness knows how many books have been written doing just that.
It’s difficult to discuss when “self-interest”, “impoliteness”, “selfishness”, and “greed” are convolved, made synonymous. There are many who treat them as distinct.
Otto,
Thanks.
Lionell,
“One side finds merit or fault in the ideas and their application in the real world. The other side finds fault or merit in the holder of the ideas based upon the feelings the ideas engender.”
Yes, yes…
Some people agree with you, the rest are irrational, gland-driven mouth-breathers who ‘hate what they fear and fear what they do not understand’.
We get it.
- MuscleDaddy
The Monster-
Not my experience. I think that no one has the right to the product of their labor. The closest one can get is to choose to withhold their labor; and depending on one’s local society, that may have awkward consequences — but it’s still a choice. Or, to put it differently, I think that one has the right to decide what product one’s labor will produce (within the range one is capable of producing).
Well, one other way is to view the previous tax rate as their personal property (and everything above that rate as yours). In this view, cutting taxes, reducing the tax rate, is them giving away something they already have — something that is currently theirs. Personally, I find that view reprehensible, but I also think it distinct from the view you mention. And while it deals with the finances of millions of people, and hence is a serious issue, it is also a glass is half empty/full advertising choice. I’m used to advertising and don’t find myself outraged.
I think that I have. Here in this thread. YMMV
(And, sorry for this out-of-sequence response.)
qwer:
In the book they gave us: Pistol Shooting (edition 04/07) (at the bottom it says, “A publication of the National Rifle Association of America”) Chapter 6 (bottom of page 53, I’m looking at it now).
“Determining Shooting Hand
A shooter must next determine which hand will be used to grip and fire a pistol. It is recommended that a shooter use the hand which is on the same side of the body as the dominant eye”
I realize it’s only a recommendation from the NRA, however, the trainers we had treated it as gospel. They said if we wanted to switch back on our own we could, but while taking the class it was mandatory (not that it’s a bad idea to learn to shoot with both hands). Sorry for any confusion.
I’ve tried to bridge between that school and those who feel somehow insulted by its precepts. – The Monster
Can’t say I’m offended by the precepts, though I have from time to time taken offense at some of the school’s adherents. But that’s a possibility for any possible school of thought. Seems prudent to keep judgments about the two separate.
One of my favorite sayings is, “Never attribute to malice what can better be attributed to incompetence.” Perhaps I can offer the Rickbert Corollary: Never attribute to the failings of a given World View what can more properly be attributed to the failings of one human being, or human nature itself.
The world’s ant expert E.O. Wilson was asked in an interview what he thought of Marxism. He replied, “wonderful theory, wrong species“. I expect it’s worth pondering how many other wonderful theories there might be out there of which the same could be said.
I do have a visceral reaction to being told that these ideas are sweeping and grand, and that I am not worthy of them.
– Ripper
True. Almost as frightening as being told some ideas are sweeping and grand, and that I must sign up now!
Hmm. A poster returns to make favorable comments about how the signal-to-noise ratio has improved, and then proceeds to worsen it dramatically by making socially abrasive comments.
Irony? You’re soaking in it.
I will freely admit that I have not studied Objectivism as an ideology — only that I have observed a fair number of those who claim to adhere to Objectivist principles. If anything, I’ve found that most Objectivists don’t seem to take the “what’s in it for me” principle far enough; in other words, they don’t appear to think through the long-term benefits or consequences of doing favors for others.
Example: a relative of mine and his Significant Other are filmmakers. They have missed out on significant opportunities to make movies because they have made the conscious choice never to do something for another filmmaker without receiving adequate compensation. While it is well within their right to demand such tit-for-tat compensation, this decision has the real-life social consequence of making them unpleasant to their fellow filmmakers, who are far more likely to team with and assist others who have shown them even a modicum of grace rather than demanding payment.
It is unfortunate that these two do not yet recognize the long-term, personal benefits of doing others a good turn. Perhaps a true Objectivist, not merely an interested observer, might do a better job of explicating this concept for Ejectia.
Keep it up folks. You are proving my point better than I could in a hundred posts.
“I do have a visceral reaction to being told that these ideas are sweeping and grand, and that I am not worthy of them”
When I first read the ideas in question, I simply thought they were ‘common sense’, which is no longer common, thanks to the efforts of so many to make them seem extreme.
They are only ‘sweeping’ in that they can help to ‘sweep’ away unstated premises, unsubstantiated conclusions, and years of mental garbage from listening to the Clever Kids logically reason away logic and reason.
They are ‘grand’ only to the extent that a ‘grand unified field theory’ is: They declare that reality is a seamless whole, not a random mishmash. “‘Sociial sciences’ are really biology. Biology is really chemistry. Chemistry is really physics. Physics is really mathematics. And mathematics is really hard.”
We are only unworthy of them when we reject them, and instead insist on substituting unreason, such as the appeal to authority that declares Anthropogenic Global Warming to be ‘settled scientific consensus’, beyond further debate. Puh-leeze!
“Well, no disrespect intended, but my morality holds sacrifice as the highest value, as something given freely rather than owed. I’m not quite sure to who’s you’re referring.”
If you have never run into the Religious Left, who insist their faith requires voting to rob Peter to pay Paul, then you’ve lived a very sheltered life indeed.
“Well, one other way is to view the previous tax rate as their personal property (and everything above that rate as yours). In this view, cutting taxes, reducing the tax rate, is them giving away something they already have — something that is currently theirs.” Thanks for pointing out that option. I consider it possible, but improbable, because the same people who think a tax cut is ‘given’ also speak of certain rate increases as getting people to pay more of their ‘fair share’, which implies that the actual position they’re taking is somewhere betwen $current_rate and 100%. That is a third possibility I hadn’t considered, which sounds like it may be a more accurate statement of the Progressive position. Years ago, a ‘progressive’ co-host of a local radio talk show was using the terminology of ‘giving’ tax cuts. I called in, told him that I’d thought about going over to his house and stealing his TV, but decided not to do it, so that meant I ‘gave’ it to him by not taking it away from him.
Good times.
Lionell, do you understand how someone could read this:
“Keep it up folks. You are proving my point better than I could in a hundred posts.”
and get the idea that you’re deliberately provoking hostile reactions to your posts here?
Do you understand that there’s a word for that, which starts with a ‘T’ and ends … rather badly? You really aren’t winning anyone to objective thinking with such comments. You’re making it very difficult for anyone to do it.
To the unnumbered lurkers out there who consider themselves Objectivists, or anything else “extreme” for that matter, if you’re willing to step up to the plate and give civil discourse a shot, I hope I’ve demonstrated that you will be defended against false charges, and that some people will try to understand where you’re coming from instead of mocking you with straw lampoons of your reasoned positions.
But you need to make a good faith effort to explicate those positions, even when you feel you’ve been wronged. If you give in to the temptation to lash out at your tormentors, you’ll only ratify their prejudices. It isn’t fair. But it never is.
“Keep it up folks. You are proving my point better than I could in a hundred posts.” – Lionell K. Griffith
Problem is, you don’t seem to have one. At least in the more figurative sense.
“Looks to me that the character of the posters is being well measured.” – ibid
Contemplating one poster in particular: Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin.
I understand binary as hit or miss, go or no-go. Those are overwhelming results, and satisfying to be able to clearly say we see the answer. Far more difficult it is to be considerate of other influences, to find a non-destructive orbit in a preferred pattern of mutual respect, integrating isolation with dependency, dealing with the tension of finding the balance.
I promise I will try.
The Monster wrote: you’ll only ratify their prejudices
Their prejudices and reactions are their responsibility, not mine.
The Monster wrote: give civil discourse a shot
Civil? Meaning, do not offend, do not challenge, do not say anything not agreeable to them, don’t even come close to saying anything true clearly enough so that it can not be misunderstood?
We have a sufficient challenge to civilization that being politically correct is a path to destruction. Its time for saying it like it is and to hell with the people who object or are offended.
Mr. Griffith,
As I recall, this debate was engendered by your objection to not being compensated monetarily for any contributions you might make to the Ejectia Library.
If you would be so kind as to favor us with a quote of your rates per word/article the management could take the matter under advisement and we could get back to exchanging recipes and light-hearted banter.
You are quite welcome to stay.
“If I would punish a province I would have it governed by philosophers.” Frederick the Great.
“I think that no one has the right to the product of their labor.”
Without that right, there is no reason why the farmer should toil in the field, nor why a plow-maker should build him an implement to make that toil more productive, nor a machine-tool maker produce the means to build those implements more efficiciently…
If the crops in the field are the rightful property of the King (or The People in whose name some other government may wield authority) then the farmer is a slave, commanded by his master to produce those crops, rather than a producer who trades value for value.
See also: The Tragedy of the Commons
It is the moral principle that recognizes this linkage between producer and production (The former is a prerequisite for the latter; before wealth can be ‘redistributed’, it first must be produced; glossing over this detail is the source of much ill in the world.) that is the basis of all civilization beyond small, roving bands of hunters and gatherers, always just a couple of bad hunts away from hunger, if not starvation.
Even such a primitive tribe can operate under the nominal principle that it owns everything only so long as it’s a small enough group that reputation and honor serve as the ‘currency’. The mightiest of hunters is generally also the strongman who earns the Alpha Male leadership position in the pack. But even the nearsighted fletcher, who can’t see the target, much less hit it, earns his share of the game. He has marked his arrows with his signature pattern of feathers, so that all will know when they aim true. A less-competent craftsman who would put his marks on the better arrows, or vice versa, is not looked upon well by the hunters who want the Real McCoy; when he is caught at it, he’s likely to be banished from the tribe altogether, because he’s violated a fundamental moral principle upon which even the most primitive ecomomies depend.
Lionell,
A couple of questions:
1) Do you feel that you have ANY vested interest in bringing people around to your way of thinking?
2) If ‘Yes’, do you think that working around their prejudices & reactions might be in the best interest of the ‘objective?’
3) Do you feel that a person may be challenged or have ‘Truth’ spoken them by saying “I think you misunderstand the principal, and here’s why…”, rather than saying “Stupid mortal – go learn to read.”
4) Do you believe that treating people with a level of kindness and/or respect = ‘Political Correctness’?
…just so I’m clear.
- MuscleDaddy
USBeast wrote: As I recall, this debate was engendered by your objection to not being compensated monetarily for any contributions you might make to the Ejectia Library.
No, I described my expectation of a trade of value for value. In that same post, I also specified that I would accept something that was both true and new TO ME as trade goods. Money is only one kind of value upon which to base trade.
Again, one is not obliged to contribute to another no matter how valuable the contribution might be nor how desperately the contribution might be needed. One properly chooses to contribute for his own reasons and for his own purposes and none other. If there is any principle underlying the foundation of this nation, this is it.
I am simply being explicit about it. If that means I will be labeled as UNCIVIL then so be it. That says much more about the one tossing the label than myself.
Mr. Griffith,
I stand corrected.
Perhaps I am picking nits, but wouldn’t one want the right to the value of one’s labors, rather than the product?
After a lifetime of labor the Obective Plow Maker, for example, could end up with a very large pile of plows and nothing else. They would be shiny of course, but difficult to eat, hard to ride and they wouldn’t keep the cold out. I should think he would want to be able to trade some or all of his plows to others in exchange for goods that they’ve created.
“Civil? Meaning, do not offend, do not challenge, do not say anything not agreeable to them, don’t even come close to saying anything true clearly enough so that it can not be misunderstood?”
No, I mean exactly what I said: Do not communicate with no purpose other than to provoke angry responses. That’s where I draw the line. Remember that I’m the one who’s been trying to find a way that we can have a productive discussion here, not one of the people who has already damned you for perceived affronts.
“We have a sufficient challenge to civilization that being politically correct is a path to destruction. Its time for saying it like it is and to hell with the people who object or are offended.”
If you say it in such a way that they won’t listen, what have you accomplished? All you’ve done is made the job more difficult for the next person who tries to get the point across.
I don’t want to consign them to hell. Only the ideas that threaten to take them there. You were doing a decent job of separating the two until this morning.
A friend of mine handles people who use racial epithets by refusing to answer to those names. She carries herself with such dignity that anyone who witnesses the behavior of the parties involved knows who really deserves to be called ugly names. As hard as it is, just stop answering to the caricatures and straw men. When people call you ‘arrogant’ and ‘condescending’, just don’t answer to those names. You can’t persuade them that you’re anything other than a stereotype anyway; they’ve already judged you. Let your behavior prove to those who still have an open mind that the stereotype doesn’t apply to you.
Let’s get to work on explaining to people how their good intentions are being hijacked by the Clever Kids. Let’s connect the dots for them, so they’ll be able to defend against those tricks.
MuscleDaddy,
I have no vested interest in nor possibility of changing someone’s mind. They must do that on their own. I cannot do that for them. The most I can do is provide data for them to process. What they do with that data is their own responsibility.
I can only work with the healthy parts of people. I cannot work with the irrational, emotional, prejudicial portions. I am not a psychotherapist.
I did not say “Stupid mortal – go learn to read.” That’s your contribution.
I do not see it as kind to help someone to fake reality (aka political correctness). In fact, I see that as one of the most evil things one can do.
For someone to be respected, they must demonstrate something worthy of respect. Simply breathing, peeing, and shitting is not sufficient.
Conversely, for someone to be disrespected, they must demonstrate something worthy of that disrespect.
All the rest simply deserve indifference.
PS: I get to choose MY standards of worthiness for myself.
We have a sufficient challenge to civilization that being politically correct is a path to destruction. Its time for saying it like it is and to hell with the people who object or are offended.
Posted by: Lionell K. Griffith | June 26, 2007 8:06 AM
I agree that the challenge to civilization is of high urgency. Regarding PC, it’s true for example that using the phrase “War On Terror” is misplaced by focusing on a tactic rather than the ideology that engenders it, or the people who carry it out. There’s plenty of mistakes made all around to point fingers at.
For that conflict to be resolved in a binary form I find unsatisfactory: neither the “submit/die” camp nor the “nuke ‘em now”. Something else must be attempted, which we are doing. Like it or not, the USA is doing virtually all of the oar-pulling on this boat. The principled, volunteer military (group force, and good guys) versus the fanatic members of a destructive ideology (bad guys – and do not they as individuals make the choice to participate as well?) both acting in proxy for “their side” rather than engaging absolutely everyone right now in a wild maelstrom of chaos.
See? I can take sides binary. I’m with the good guys. Nobody yet has the answer to how this will resolve. I’ll proceed as if the intention is for us to survive, prosper, and reach the stars one day.
Unlike a bullet whose trajectory can be evaluted in cold mathematics and logic alone, there is no such binary certainty to the trajectory we share as a civilization, or a species.
Put another way, I have yet to recognize any binary construct which satisfactorily explains or models natural reality. If we only have a north and south pole, what up with the equator?
You might well be impatient with my fuzzy mind. I’m struggling with this, out in the open, under observation. My nature as a fairly introverted guy is telling me to shut up and hide in my shell while I process this, and not to show any work until it is finished. But what the hell. Maybe someone else who is also struggling with the ideas at their own pace will be willing to spew a few blorts my way. I’m introverted, but not antisocial, and I like being left alone, but not isolated.
The Monster answered: No, I mean exactly what I said: Do not communicate with no purpose other than to provoke angry responses.
That was not my purpose. My purpose was to clearly separate the two camps so all could see.
If some became angry, that’s their responsibility. It was an incidental part of the demonstration. I simply communicated my position clearly.
“After a lifetime of labor the Obective Plow Maker, for example, could end up with a very large pile of plows and nothing else. They would be shiny of course, but difficult to eat, hard to ride and they wouldn’t keep the cold out. I should think he would want to be able to trade some or all of his plows to others in exchange for goods that they’ve created.”
Absolutely right, Ripper. But that begs the question. In order for him to justly offer them in trade, he must first own them of his own right. And in order for him to justly receive the goods which he desires from his trading partners, the farmer must own his crops, the builder must own the value he adds to the building materials, which themselves have had value added by those who fashioned the raw materials into usable products, etc.
In fact, if he doesn’t have the right to trade it with others under mutually-agreeable terms, I submit that he doesn’t really own it at all. If his right is limited to personal use, then he’s merely been granted some sort of license by the true owner.
True ownership includes the right to convey that ownership to another.
I seem to recall a contretemps about that distinction, not awfully long ago.
For someone to be respected, they must demonstrate something worthy of respect. Simply breathing, peeing, and shitting is not sufficient.
- Lionell K. Griffith | June 26, 2007 9:25 AM
Guess that’s gonna be hard to translate to a mother’s respect for the life of her baby. You’re isolating yourself, in your preferred binary fashion.
Is there no reason to participate with a generous heart? Or are you seriously taking the position that emotions are unhealthy?
Otto Gass wrote: You might well be impatient with my fuzzy mind. I’m struggling with this, out in the open, under observation.
Good for you. The struggle is important and it makes you part of the solution process.
It takes many years of very difficult and disciplined effort to overcome the intellectual damage one’s parents, community, and public education has caused. Keep struggling. Its worth it.
Otto Gass asked: Or are you seriously taking the position that emotions are unhealthy?
No. To the extent they are not the result of organic pathology or reactions to toxins, emotions are a response to ones evaluation of the state of things. That evaluation is a result of the thinking, study, and experience you have done or the lack thereof.
While emotion may give energy to words and action and offer clues to one’s values, they are not sources of knowledge about the world. Because you are a self aware thinking being, you are ultimately responsible for your emotions. You cannot choose not to have them but you can choose what to do about them. They are not your master.
Lionel, the essence of communication lies in the receiver having the same model as the transmitter. In trying to influence people, that puts the onus on the transmitter to have empathy with the reciever. The key word is empathy, and that means in order to be effective , you have to understand where they are coming from, and how to put your message in terms they can relate to. Simply broadcasting “data” may make YOU feel better, but if there is some guy screaming in the corner in Klingon, very few people will understand him, even IF the things he says are really important. So if they have emotions, or concerns, or biases, or even just different experiences, YOU have to make the effort to understand them if you want to reach them. Speak THEIR language.
So if you’re just about wanting to feel superior, then by all means, put out whatever data in whatever format you deem appropriate, and it will be ignored or celebrated as people desire – my guess in this forum is much more the former. But, if you want to help people to see your point of view, them remember it has to be about them , too.
Why not regard yourself as part of a whole, and take some responsability for it (thats not collectivism – whereupon responsability is distributed to the point where no one is responsible – its classical liberalism – whereupon people and civilization are goods of and unto themselves, and thus worth protecting).
Ayn Rand had many great points, but the problem with pure objectvism, as with most “isms”, is that she’d rather that SHE be “right” than the world be MADE right. The end of Atlas Shrugs was bleak, and her protagonist had a moral victory only. “Moral victories” are also known as “losing, and not being smart enough to KNOW that you lost, much less why”.
I’m with Kirk, I don’t like to lose.
The thing with civilization is that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The highest level of education in the world is held by Iranians and Indians. Would YOU want to live there? Mexico has some of the greatest natural and human resources in the world. So do the Russians. How’s their economies doing? Civilization is built on the relationships of the people in it, defined by their culture, as much as the people themselves – who are , as Bill noted once, pretty much interchangeable. The problem with collectivism/socialism/.etc have is that they seek to conttrol and define those relationships from the top. A much better way is for each and every person to nurture and preserve those relationships from the bottom – because THEY have the best vantage to determine what relationships are available to them. You have an interface to everyone you know. Sometimes nurturing and preserving that interface may mean a net outflow of resources from you to them. That isn’t zero -sum , because the whole of which you are not only a part, but HAVE to exist within, is made better. This is part of the philosophical case for ethical and virtuous behavior and has been around at least since Aristotle.
Lionell, thank you for your explanation of the mechanics of emotional response, and the responsibilities that follow.
No comment on the value of a baby? Even as, or particularly as, the unrealized human potential as opposed to the perfected, self-actualized individual? I’m getting whiplash from making such large leaps, sorry.
Otto Gass commented: Guess that’s gonna be hard to translate to a mother’s respect for the life of her baby.
Have you experienced having a child of your own? A baby does a lot more than pee and shit. However, for most people, the experience of becoming a parent triggers a deep biological reaction to care for the child. An infant is a special limiting case in which there are countless millions of years of evolution built into mammals caring for the young.
The context of my principle of due respect was an implied adult population of self responsible individuals. I do not expect infants will be posting on this list to trigger its application.
Superiority 101
Lionell, thanks for throwing me a bone. Maybe I just need to withdraw and study. From my current viewpoint, I feel like I’m doing all the work of developing understanding, and honestly, I think I’m seeing a cul-de-sac.
Monopticus, thank you. I’m thinking my energies have been diverted long enough.
For what it’s worth, my daughter just turned eighteen. The caring for the young extends beyond the age of majority; may never end in fact. One more thing I don’t know. Whatever.
lionle is a poopy head his mommy shud make him a time out.
Monopticus,
1. I am not clairvoyant, telepathic, or precognitive.
2. I can only work with the words people post and cannot know their full mental model.
3. Some people have a strong reaction to my words. I believe the reaction to be diagnostic of their inner character.
4. For the most part, I am understood and that seems to be a problem for some.
5. At least now we are dealing with more signal and a lot less noise.
Otto Gass wrote: I feel like I’m doing all the work of developing understanding,
That is how it is. You must do the work. All others can do is provide data and examples.
The Monster-
Sorry. I just couldn’t determine which group you were referring to without a hint.
The Monster-
I look at things differently, and respectfully disagree.
And a tragedy it is.
I disagree. I think that it is the social principle that shared community ownership of property doesn’t work well for a large community, unadorned. More specifically, I think the Tragedy has nothing to do with a “linkage between producer and production”.
True, with caveats. I wouldn’t call them a tribe because the “small enough” requires it to be something smaller. And it’s not merely reputation, here, but face-to-face reputation given that they must each be in constant extended daily contact.
I think that this is false, but I’m willing to listen.
I also think that this is false. Aside from thinking that there is no such specialization in the size and type of group you’ve posited, I think that such a person would have “his share of the game” based more on familial relationships than on his contributions.
The Monster-
I’m not meaning to rain on your parade, here, but it seems to me like the pure Objectivist never has to say they’re sorry. They can always rationalize it away by adjusting how they value “the product of their labor”.
Bill-
The next time you do some renderings for posting, — if it’s not too much trouble — could you please include some in 1440×900 resolution? Suitable for widescreen wallpaper…
Is this link in line with the thinking of Ejectia?
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2007/june20/gradtrans-062007.html
It’s Dana Gioia’s grad speech at Stanford.
Yes Bill, and could you also get us back on track concerning the original intent of Ejectia?
Is it to be a grand message board, or maybe an elite debating society?
Will we ever reach the speed of light?
Will we ever exceed the speed of light?
If one is looking at a star which is 5000 light years away, did not that light that we are now seeing originate 5000 years ago, and if so, is it not possible that the star no longer exists.
Can someone tell me how to overhaul a 9N Ford tractor?
Can sourdough starter be used in cornbread?
Who put the ram in the ramalamadingdong?
OK, qwer, why should a farmer work to produce crops if there’s no moral principle that links his acts of production to the right to control the fruits thereof?
“I think the Tragedy has nothing to do with a ‘linkage between producer and production’.”
The Tragedy is about the benefits of productive actions, and costs of destructive ones, being divorced from those who commit those acts. Alienating the worker from his product leaves him with no sense of personal investment in it.
“I wouldn’t call them a tribe because the “small enough” requires it to be something smaller. And it’s not merely reputation, here, but face-to-face reputation given that they must each be in constant extended daily contact.”
Then ‘band’ or whatever word you like. Desmond Morris said the size of such a social unit was somewhere around 60 people, precisely to allow the members to have the level of contact approaching what you describe; when one grows to something like 1.6 x the optimal size, it’ll split in two.
“I also think that this is false. Aside from thinking that there is no such specialization in the size and type of group you’ve posited, I think that such a person would have “his share of the game” based more on familial relationships than on his contributions.”
If someone is myopic, he can’t be a hunter. He’s got to do something that helps the hunters, or join the women as gatherers (perhaps he can wield a club in their defense if a rival clan attacks). A band that teeters on the edge of hunger all the time simply can’t afford to support an adult who isn’t contributing something. (We’ve already discussed infants; the elderly have spent their adult lives contributing physically, after which they share their wisdom with the youngsters.)
The clans that are “compassionate” enough to feed everyone, or feed no one, will starve while their “hard-hearted” rivals, who give preference to the productive, survive. Our more advanced economy has liberated us from the perpetual chase for the next meal, and allows our compassion greater latitude. This country literally pays farmers not to plant crops!
But the entire enterprise depends on that Web of Trust, that all the people who work to make it possible will be compensated for that work. That’s a moral principle, which is another way of saying ‘right’.
Hmmm. I’m been away for awhile. I come back and find the comment section essentially hijacked by a dense and fairly useless discussion of Objectivism, a philosophy that has zero chance of ever succeeding in the real world. Folks, if you want Ejectia to succeed you’ll need a was to shunt these sorts of religious arguments aside to places where the few interested people can poke at each other to their hearts’ content while the rest get on with developing the community that was originally posited. Guess I’ll check back later to see if there’s more here than tired old Randianism.
“Conversely, for someone to be disrespected, they must demonstrate something worthy of that disrespect.” – Lionell K. Griffith
I’m your Huckleberry.
Scorn and defiance, slight regard, contempt and any thing that may not misbecome the mighty sender, doth he prize you at. – Exeter, Henry V
Oh, and speaking of requests to Bill, any chance Ejectia proper will have Bouncer Daemons like the Black Sun in Snow Crash? At some point, I feel I will have need of them; perhaps to be escorted by them. At some point, the people you let in will have a direct affect on the kind of people you will turn away.
Hey Doug,
Don’t worry – it feels like this little exercise is winding down.
- MuscleDaddy
Doug Loss – There are going to be several places to discuss and debate all kinds of subjects, so don’t worry about that. If you want to discuss Objectivism over at Ejectia, I’m sure there will be some of that going on, but if you’d rather talk about Fishing Lures, that’s fine, too. If you have any Library material to offer, please submit a proposal to the Library mailbox.
We’ll get a better idea of how this is going to work after Opening Day, and right now we’re pretty much just keeping busy.
Gideon300, I’m not going to try to answer your question to Bill about the nature of Ejectia, but I will answer these:
Will we ever reach the speed of light?
I don’t know about you, but I certainly won’t: only massless objects can reach the speed of light, and I’m definitely not massless.
Will we ever exceed the speed of light?
Maybe, if we can cause a Space/Time inversion so that our paths become Timelike rather than Spacelike. *grin*
If one is looking at a star which is 5000 light years away, did not that light that we are now seeing originate 5000 years ago, and if so, is it not possible that the star no longer exists.
I did not destroy that star, I tell you!
Can someone tell me how to overhaul a 9N Ford tractor?
No, you will have to ship it to me.
Can sourdough starter be used in cornbread?
Sounds like a plan to me. Mmmm… Sourdough Cornbread…
Post:
Reverend-
Thanks for the link. An interesting read. Some of it should definitely be of use.
Gioia to Stanford graduates
Gioia is the current head of the National Endowment for the Arts (the other NEA), our government’s Art funding program. A commencement speech is supposed to be uplifting and forward-looking. All in all, I think that Gioia made a fair case but there were a few things with which I differ.
Gioia-
At that age, he should also be able to remember that every public high school in this country had a rifle program. And students were able to bring their rifles onto their high school campus. Instead, today we have school massacres in “gun-free zones”.
Every high school also had a Junior ROTC program. Today, they’re pretty much gone.
Every high school also had physical discipline available. And now, bullying on school grounds is a pandemic.
There were serious knowledge requirements for high school graduation. Today, practically all you need is a warm body marking time in the classroom with spitwads, and you’ll get your diploma.
There were no charter schools, and pretty much no homeschooling. Today, these are booming, and it’s easy to see why.
I believe that I have outgrown art. I’ve outgrown NEA’s sponsorship of art like Andres Serrano’s “Piss Christ” with a crucifix floating in urine, and Chris Ofili’s “Holy Virgin Mary” with a breast made of elephant dung.
I’ll agree with the “distinct from”, but I’m inclined to disagree with the “equal to”.
Objectivism and post modernisim. A pair of illegitimate sons generated in the bubbles of a water pipe. Everything they touch turns to shit. Both are nearly unexplainable phenomena.
Evan Sayet does a fairly nice job here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c
The Monster-
I look at it this way, aside from several other reasons such as duress, compassion, curiousity and such.
He sells his labor by contract or employment.
For example, a tenant farmer doesn’t have a right to the entire product of his labor because he doesn’t own an integral ingredient in the product’s creation — the land on which he grows his crop.
The land just sat there, and so did the land’s owner. So the question is, Do we say that because the land’s owner didn’t lift a finger to help that therefore the farmer, who did all the work, has the moral right to control the fruits of his labors?
Sorry to disagree, but I think he doesn’t.
It’s an old topic, and one that has led to many farm nationalization, and land redistribution, programs. “Land, Bread, and Peace” for example.
I’d just like to say, to no one in particular, that I’d like to go forward walking right foot – left foot, not right foot – wrong foot. There’s plenty of emergencies out there that have caught me off guard, from 9/11 to high school grad fallout. I’d like the luxury, so far as it’s afforded, of benefitting from the wisdom and experience of others. If I have to burn my own fingers on the stove over and over again because I don’t get it, shame on me. But if you know there’s alligators in the swamp, and rather than tell me so point your finger in that direction so that I can gain the knowledge by my own experience, I’ll have a hard time establishing an enduring relationship.
So hey, I think I’ll skip the swamp for now. And thanks for the words of encouragement, hope to be solid back to ya when you need it.
“For example, a tenant farmer doesn’t have a right to the entire product of his labor because he doesn’t own an integral ingredient in the product’s creation — the land on which he grows his crop.”
If the farmer doesn’t own the crops his efforts produce, where does he get the rent to pay the land owner?
Separating the ownership of land only complicates things somewhat. The owner can hire farm workers and pay them a daily wage for their efforts, but he finds that renting the land to someone else, either for a fixed annual rate, or a share of the crops, produces a better return on his investment. That saves him from having to supervise the details of the work; both parties are motivated to make the land as productive as possible, at least through the term of the contract. And that guy selling plows gets paid because he lets that same land produce more than it did before, making a bigger slice of pie for the land owner and farmer even after he gets his cut.
The owner can’t demand too much rent, or he’ll have no tennant. The tennant farmers can’t demand too little rent, or they’ll have no landlord. Each of them has the power to judge the deal unfair, and refuse to make it. But once they agree to the terms, they are bound to deliver their side of the deal.
Whew, for a while there I thought Ejectia was turning into Objectia. (Insert your own puns here.) The next time we feel like chasing our collective tails let’s have a go at Solipsism. No rush, it can wait until Ejectia has a Philosophers’ Ward…er Corner set up.
Let’s get back to the Great Questions. For example: Was Elvis the true King of Rock ‘n Roll or does that title properly belong to Chuck Berry?
An Objectivist, a system architect, a process management specialist, a hunter, a fisherman, a teacher, a Reservist, two IT support specialist, a writer, a graphics artist, a librarian, a biker, a plumber and an engineer (the proprietor) walk into a bar.
The engineer\proprietor ask: Any body what a drink?
Objectivist: Well I could have a beer but what would maximize my satisfaction… thinking…; weighing alternatives….; fades to blah blah, blah…..yada, yada, yada….
System architect (interrupting): Yes – Shiner Bok for me Sir.
Process management specialist: A virtual beer? Why Yes; I’ll have your most expensive virtual beer; If you don’t mind kind Sir.
Hunter, Bud please.
Fisherman: Miller Lite and a shot of JD… Thank you sir.
IT support specialist: A nice cold Shiner Blond if you don’t mind.
And by buddy here from KC will have a ??? What do you want big guy? Nice try, but nobody wins ‘em all.
Writer: … Please
Graphics artist: …Thank you
Librarian, … Sir
Biker: Bud and shot of Turkey ? Big Guy
Plumber..draft, How?s it going..
And Engineer (the proprietor): Self… I’ll have a Miller Lite. Thank you Self
IT support specialist: Chase, I got this round. Just got air conditioning in the garage. You don’t know how COOL that is.
Objectivist: …Blah, blah, blah, blah; yada, yada, yada…, …
Proprietor fills tray with second round. “Somebody spring for some songs on the jukebox”. Three friends volunteer. making hand signals “Anybody want to join me over at the window? We had a wonderful view… ”
And a good time was had by all… well most anyway.
PS. I liked Fountainhead, Atlas Shrugged and Anthem and have read each several times for creative inspiration over the last 30 years. I visited but never had much interest to hang with the Rand\Objectivist sites. At the time, I could not put my finger on exactly why. Today, I believe you kind folks have constructed from a blank sheet of paper and raw materials a Howard Roarkian skyscraper of an answer to my why.
Thank you. Thank you for such a fine – and should I point out FREE – lesson.
Next round is on me. Unquiet.
Please do not respond to this with any debate about additions to the wonderful skyscraper. Any additions, changes, comments or alteration of any kind would be an insult to the architects creative work product. I must insist it stand as it is with just my little joke here and that statue of Dougman’s glorious posterior Dougman and I decided in independent (very independent because I did not ask him.) consultation just must be added out front. Your welcome! I\We knew you would approve so we did not ask
USBeast:
Now how can you make it a binary choice? What about Little Richard?
Rickbert,
That was my favorite line in the whole rocking-cool movie.
- MuscleDaddy
Unquiet, if someone should respond to you with debate about your skyscraper, would you by any chance feel compelled to blow it up?
And can you make the skyscraper rebuild itself every hour on the hour, like the Restaurant at the End of The Universe?
Because that would be Sofa King Awesome.
Doug,
I knew someone would bring up Richard. My exclusion was based on experience. Back in ’71 or ’72 I saw an awesome concert in Milwaukee: Chuck Berry, Bo Diddley, Little Richard, The Drifters and The Coasters. Richard not only showed up late, he also stunk up the place. Chuck, on the other hand, walked out stage backed by a band of local talent he’d never seen before and tore the place apart.
Don’t get me wrong, Richard has his place in the pantheon but it is not King.
I won’t say you’re wrong, Beast. But Richard in his prime could tear the place up just fine. And let us not forget Jerry Lee Lewis…
Unquiet,
If you do blow up your skyscraper, could you give us a heads-up before you push the button so I can turn down my speakers. My dog’s asleep.
And while we’re at it, let’s give props to the folks who Elvis learned from: Big Mama Thornton, Arthur “Big Boy” Crudup, Big Joe Turner, etc.
“Because that would be Sofa King Awesome.”
Definitely.
“If the farmer doesn’t own the crops his efforts produce, where does he get the rent to pay the land owner?”
Maybe shared ownership? Maybe a 60-40 contract split over the next 3 seasons? Maybe the farmer is paying off the 9N Ford tractor and gets an additional stipend from the owner’s brother-in-law? All kinds of messy unbinary ways that the farmer doesn’t own what his efforts produce. I just don’t get the need for the all-or-nothing theoretical viewpoint. On the other hand, I like the rest of what you wrote there. Like me, you seem to be talking about the labor, itself, rather than it’s product — and you’ve included time, as well. Makes things more realistic. Please, have the last word, and we can get on to a round with Unquiet.
Hey Unq, I’ll have a Gatorade please. And as long as I’m here MD’s refreshments are on me.
The King of Rock and Roll must, by definition, life fast and die young.
As significant as Chuck Berry and Little Richard were, they survived.
Well….of course Little Richard isn’t the King.
I thought Don McLean covered that – Elvis was the King, and Little Richard….well,…
- MuscleDaddy
I think you’re all getting caught in a semantic web with this tenant farmer stuff, folks. A tenant farmer rents the land from the owner and farms it. He pays the owner a previously-agreed-upon rent for the use of the land. The produce belongs to the farmer in toto. I know this because it’s standard practice in farm country.
If the farmer agrees to share the produce with the landowner for the use of the land, that’s called “sharecropping.” This is a seldom-used method of landowner compensation these days, as most landowners don’t want to be bothered with having to market the produce. They just want a return on their investment in the real estate.
If the farmer is paid a set amount by the landowner to farm the land with the produce going to the landowner, the farmer is called an employee. The landowner is properly called the farmer, no matter how little actual labor he puts into the effort.
So where’s the problem?
“Ejectia has a Philosophers’ Ward”
Ward [redacted] Philosophy
- A high standard of family-centered care
- Parents/carers/siblings are welcome
- Care is at all times evidence-based
- Medical students are supervised at all times
- Provide children with educational input during their stay
- Strive to be approachable at all times
- Encourage children to express their fears and anxieties
(I dunno about this particular Ward.)
Ripper, by your definition Elvis wasn’t the King either. He died middle-aged and overweight in Vegas, for God’s sake. Buddy Holly might fit…
Hmmm. Can we all agree then that Little Richard was the Queen of Rock and Roll? Horribly un-PC, I know…
Ripper,
While I understand your argument and grant it a certain amount of validity, I must disagree. If Elvis had not died he would still be doing a parody of himself in Vegas and still be calling himself the King of Rock ‘n Roll.
Also, your argument does not explain Keith Richards.
Ah, Doug, isn’t it always a semantic web? Speaking of which…
Gideon300, the Evan Sayet speech is a classic. It has lots of great examples of the Clever Kids turning our highest values against us by means of carefully-hidden context switches. Remember when to be ‘discriminating’ meant you had good judgement?
Oh, Unquiet… I think a nice iced tea would do me fine.
Objectivism: Can you teach it?
As a profressional teacher I’ve never had the option to tell a student, “Sorry, you just don’t get it. I guess you lack the logical mind necessary to master the subject.” It behooves a good teacher to change his methods when the lesson won’t stick. I’ve had to teach some lessons two and three times before my kids finally understood.
As a professional teacher I cannot afford to alienate my students. If I make them feel stupid, I lose them. Mutual respect is key in the teacher-student relationship. Genuine authority by the teacher “arrives” when students recognize his superiority in both content knowledge and personal character. A good teacher doesn’t lecture about classroom comportment, he models it in his personal behavior and speech.
As a professional teacher I am responsible for the success or failure of my students provided they put forth a good faith effort. If they don’t get it after an honest effort on their part, then the fault is mine. I am obligated to re-assess and try again. I doubt my principal wants to hear from me something like: “Well, I understand it all perfectly well. I don’t know why these kids just can’t grasp it.”
I can’t teach Objectivism because I’m not an expert in the field. But neither can an expert teach it unless he understands the basic principles of teaching, a field that is one part art and another science.
As a Senator pro tem for Ejectia, I’m getting very annoyed that my email box is loaded every morning with complaints about the lousy teaching going on regarding Objectivism. I suggest the participants get it fixed before the boss becomes more annoyed than I already am.
~Paules
Elvis was the king, and I am glad that Curt Cobain was never crowned, even if some proclaimed him a “spokesman for our generation” one for which I never voted. He was at best a flash in the pan for being “ironic”, which is not to say “talented”. For irony, like anything postmodern, is only interesting for a few moments and to the people standing around it when it happens. To everyone else its just noise.
(as a tangent on another thread, I love Alan Moore’s work, even though I disagree with him politically,but as one of the very very few examples of talented post-modern artists – his work cannot outlive its own time. V the novel was only good because it was England in 1983. V the movie was just another Hollywood bumper-sticker. I guess in that respect , even well executed postmodern works fail the test for “art” in that their communicative ability is lost almost immediately. – Personally I think much of the appeal of the original Star Wars was due to it being 1977)
To me the spokesman of my generation is (his personal Bolshevism aside) undoubtedly John Cusack.
Lloyd Doebler knows where my 2$ are…
How’s that for lightening the mood
Gideon300, the Evan Sayet speech is a classic. It has lots of great examples of the Clever Kids turning our highest values against us by means of carefully-hidden context switches.
==============================
If there was something I could say to convince everyone who regularly posts here, and those also who lurk, to watch the clip, I would say it.
Some will hate it, some will love it, but all will be affected by it. It is not neutral.
My immediate reaction was, “Wow, I’ve been wanting to express that in words for so long, but I was unable to do so. There are real definitions here.”
It’s worth the thirty minutes or so to watch. The question and answer session at the end can be skipped without missing much. I’ll repost the link here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE98w1KZ-c
I knew this would be fun.
Allow me to present my case for the nomination of Chuck Berry as the True King of Rock ‘n Roll.
Unlike Elvis, Chuck wrote his own songs, songs that crystallized the form: Johnny B. Good, Mabeline, Reelin’ And Rockin’ and (in my not so humble opinion) the ultimate Rock and Roll anthem, Roll Over Beethoven just to name a few.
There is also the fact that there is not a single ‘Guitar God’ from Clapton on down who does not acknowledge Berry as a huge influence. Given that the guitar is the primary Rock ‘n Roll instrument it follows that the man who taught the world how to “play a guitar just like ringing a bell” deserves more respect than one who used it primarily as a prop.
It’s been twenty years, but back when I was possessed by the delusion that I had a future in the music business the bands I played with did covers of Chuck Berry songs. I do not recall a single performance when Roll Over Beethoven and Johnny B. Good did not get the crowd up and into it. Other bands in the area reported the same results.
Nobody did Elvis covers…except the impersonators.
Hail, Hail Rock ‘n Roll
Hail King Chuck
“If there was something I could say to convince everyone who regularly posts here, and those also who lurk, to watch the clip, I would say it.”
How about… “He never says the O-word in the whole thing.”
“Allow me to present my case for the nomination of Chuck Berry as the True King of Rock ‘n Roll.”
Seconded.
“let’s have a go at Solipsism.” – USBeast
Well, I’m pretty sure I can have a go at it, but I dunno about you.
Ba-dum-bump!
USBeast, I don’t think there’s any arguement that can explain Kieth Richards. In any rational universe he would have been dead 30 years ago.
But years ago, when I watched the Chuck Berry documentary “Hail Hail Rock and Roll” I walked out with less respect for Berry, and MUCH more for Richards.
Monster Said: Unquiet, if someone should respond to you with debate about your skyscraper, would you by any chance feel compelled to blow it up?
And can you make the skyscraper rebuild itself every hour on the hour, like the Restaurant at the End of The Universe?
Because that would be Sofa King Awesome.
USBeast said: Unquiet, If you do blow up your skyscraper, could you give us a heads-up before you push the button so I can turn down my speakers. My dog’s asleep.
Monster: Yes and Possibly.
USBeast: Regrettably No. I could blame the beers; I could blame Dougman; but the facts are I have no authority here; you will have to ask the proprietor, Sir Chase.
BTY: Ejectia History Update: Sir Chase was recently knighted for pissing of half the population of the planet for not opening his 7/24 establishment early enough and the other half for opening too early. This gave him the rare 100% disapproval rating all international businessmen covet – therefore achieving Dougman status. It was that final 10 % that disapproved of Sir Chase’s infringement on Dougman’s territory that gained him 110% effort and his knighthood. The ceremony was an ugly affair but that story should be left for another time.
Will all join me and raise there drinks? Well done Sir Chase!
Sir Chase,
May I request that we add to TCL’s extensive layout the Sofa King Awesome seating area with a view of the Dougman Statue atop of the Howard Roark Skyscraper? The seating area should feature the Giant Gong which, when struck by the hourly Best TCL Dang! Observation Winner releases the great pendulum of perpetual destruction and lets all TCL patrons be reminded of, and take pride in, the never ending process of building and rebuilding Ejectia.
Unquiet
PS: I love Chuck Berry but my daddy raised me on Buddy Holly. I am biased; I am not rational; This is religious. Buddy Holly is my King of Rock and Roll.
“The seating area should feature the Giant Gong which… This is religious. Buddy Holly is my King of Rock and Roll.”
In that case, given that it’s the Philosophy Ward, at least let us dedicate the Giant Gong to Chuck Barry, the King of Gongs.
Unquiet,
Buddy Holly, had he lived, could have risen to the throne of God Emperor. The only song of his I did not love was Peggy Sue.
Rave On!
Uh, Qwer,
I think you mean Chuck Barris.
“I think you mean Chuck Barris.”
Got me. But, then, his real name doesn’t rhyme nearly as well.
STFU
A very short Ejectian play in one unnatural act.
The Players
A door(like the ones in Star Trek)
The proprietor(Chase)
The Protagonist
(Heironymous the Anonymous)
The Ejectia Chorus(Various nobles and Riff Raff of Ejectia)
The scene: Door opens and HtA enters
Action!
Door: Pssshhhhht
HtA: Good evening gents!
(Looks out window)
Say-thats an um…interesting sculpture…is it Michaelangelo?
Chase: Uh, no its a…a…Dougman!
Whats your pleasure stranger?
HtA: Um, A beer I think.
Chase: What type of beer?
Hta: Well, I’ve heard that Objectivist beers are quite superior.
Ejectia Chorus: Shut the F*** Up!!!!
Door:Pfssshhht!
qwer, USBeast I have been lurking and reading your post for awhile. I think we shall have some fun here and possibly learn and teach a thing or two. I am an expert of just about nothing… but I have my $.02 to add to just about everything.
Old drunk Chuck is exactly who I was picturing only I could not come close to remembering his name. Chuck Berry did fit in nice with the theme of the discusion but, as you have so kindly admitted, USBeast is right on this one.
Svin,
You know the difference between a model 1911 and an objectivist?
Svinrod, Ich bien ein gehowlindroppenrollengiggler.
BTW, Svin, your recent post at QTR is superb. I’m just too cooked right now by the desert sun to respond.
Ejectian play
ROTFLMAO!
A bit short in the shrift, but I couldn’t stop laughing.
Unquiet, you and USBeast are fun to read. And I’m learning things here, myself. Feel free to jump in an help me back on track any time.
Mark Paules,
While you’re at it, can you describe any other groups of people, like Libertarians, Christians, Jews, Arabs, Africans, or Zen Buddhists, in terms of Browning models?
Svinrod, A most exellent play. I must admit I fell asleep in the middle and took a .5 second nap.
Wow, a whole night out at the theater in 10 seconds.
What a country!
I think somebody is going to get one of those Eskers for this one. I heard two critics talking in the lobby on the way out. I think Door is really going places. Did you notice it had both the first and last lines. Nobody will forget that.
“Banging head” and waving secret index-and-pinky-finger ‘devil sign’…
Do-or!
Do-or!
Do-or!
Mark Paules,
Ok, You know I couldn’t resist that.
What is the difference between an Ob*******st and a 1911?
Svin
Mr. Paules, when a m 1911 speaks, it’s the end of the discussion.
Something makes me glad I haven’t had the ‘net for a couple of days
Unfortunately, being born in ’82 I have very little to add to the King of R&R. Now, if we move over to say C&W or maybe even Blues I could participate. Then again maybe not
While I’m on for a bit, does anyone have any absolute must-sees/do’s in Sydney Australia? Hmm, given the time difference, maybe I’ll check in tomorrow.
Re:
I wish I’d have had a chance to learn under a “Templeton” Looking forward to it here. Thanks Unquiet.
Looking forward to your input also Lionell K Griffith. Sounds like you something to add to the structure here.
L8R all
LL
Posted by: Leftfoot Leeds | June 24, 2007 11:05 AM
Wow! Watch what you ask for huh? I knew you had something to contribute L.K.Griffith. Thanks to you and all who contributed.I appreciate the passion and the questions and the logic. It was enlightening, as well as entertaining. I will leave you with a shall I say payment? Quid pro quo? Gift? Hope ya like it.
Full on the lips
The meaning of words taste clean upon our tongues
Speaking of important things that shape the life of man
Invigorating the rarified air we breath
Solidifying and giving form to the invisible chains
That bind us in our choice
We kiss existence full on the lips with a passion almost unknown
Living forever in good works
And resting easy at the end for knowing the difference
Between evils shaded brethren
and the extraordinary life and those that live it.
Good Night
LL
This type of argumentation is PRECISELY why we have a module called ARENA. I really don’t mind blood sport debating… in fact, I’ve had some modest success with it myself. Kept inside the confines of something like the Arena, I think it’s all great fun.
What I do NOT like is for the kind of tone that one may employ in an intellectual knife-fight to spread out of the boundries of such a paradigm. Since this comment section is all I can offer right now, I am loath to banish one to save the other, but when Ejectia finally arrives, I will absolutely enforce tone, respect and good manners “on the street” and I frankly don’t much care who has a problem with that.
What I can and will promise is that when opening day arrives the new site will be a friendly and welcoming home for everyone regardess of their spiritual beliefs or lack of them, and if you cannot confine a bullying and aggressive attitude to places like a dedicated forum then you will reluctantly be judged unfit for polite society. The ability to disagree without being disagreeable is not only a hallmark of a civilized society — it is also a sign of a fully formed, adult personality. I have come to realize late in life that advanced IQ has no bearing whatsoever on childish behavior or the lack of it, and I am determined not to let that kind of churlishness ruin an otherwise pleasant experience for the multitudes of adults who do not feel compelled by fragile ego boundries to behave in that manner.
Monster,
Sorry, I can’t do Brownings with all ethinic groups, but light bulb jokes are tame enough. How many Buddhists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Two: One to screw it in, and one not to.
Open season, gang! How many objectivists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Free drinks at the Chase Lounge for the winner.
~Paules
Go screw it yourself.
How many objectivists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Depends – What’s it worth to ‘em?
- MuscleDaddy
Sure, Right after I use up my three joke a week quota; Now somebody offers free beer for a joke. And what have I got left in the the tank… Nothing; Absolutly Nothing.
How many objectivists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
None. Objectivist are still using burning sticks. Society develops rather slowley when nobody can stand to talk to one another.
“Sorry, I can’t do Brownings with all ethinic groups, but light bulb jokes are tame enough.”
Are they?
Unquiet,
HAHAHAHHAHHAHA!
You sir,
simply
ROCK!
Monster,
Yes.
They are.
It’s a light bulb joke.
/lighten up/
D4 switching off.
…because I couldn’t get any dimmer…
I’m here all week.
Be sure to tip your waiter.
daddyquatro:
But won’t tipping him make him fall over?
Good Morning to ALL !!!
Just wanted to stop in, say “Hey!!!” and remind everyone that opening day is just ONE WEEK AWAY!
I, for one, will be trying to get plenty of rest before next Wednesday, so I’m ready for the whirlwind of activity that is sure to engulf that day!
Stay Safe! Arrive in good spirits! And prosper!
Doug Loss 6/27 4:28 AM –
That’s cows that fall over when “tipped,” isn’t it? Waiters usually have better balance…
just sayin’…
Arrive in good spirits!
Don’t drink and drive though, you might spill some.
Conserve
That’s cows that fall over…
If I don’t see ya in the future, I’ll see ya in the pasture.
“That’s cows that fall over when “tipped,” isn’t it? Waiters usually have better balance…” – Paul A.
I spent a few years as a bank teller in my youth. I had to make sure I ended every freakin’ day in balance. Thus, combined with the fact they have hooves, your average cow makes a rotten bank teller.
D4, I tried to lighten up, but the bulb was burnt out.
I thought about who might change the bulb, but realized that no one can change the bulb so that it will produce light again. Once a bulb is burnt out, it can’t be unburnt. The only thing to do is get a new bulb. The only way anyone can change a bulb is to break it. And if I smash it while it’s in the receptacle, I might never get it out of there to put in a new bulb.
So I wonder how the expression “change a light bulb” came into being. It makes no sense. It’s like a “hot water heater”. I don’t need to heat hot water; I need to heat cold water! Heating hot water is like using your PIN Number at the ATM Machine.
And what the hell does “I could care less” mean? If you could care less, that means you do care some. And why do we say someone is “head over heels” in love? It seems to me that “head over heels” is the normal state of things. Have you ever been heels over head about something? THAT would be news!
Why do we park on driveways and drive on parkways?
Why is something that goes by truck or car called ‘a shipment’ after coming off a ship where it’s called ‘cargo’? Why do we call those advertising sections in the newspaper ‘circulars’ when they’re rectangular? Why is Madison Square Garden round?
And why do we say that a woman wears a brassiere but a pair of panties? If you’re going to call either of those things a ‘pair’, shouldn’t it be the bra?
Ladies and gentlemen of the alleged jury, it don’t make no sense. If we can’t change light bulbs for the better, and women can’t each wear “a pair of brassieres” and “a panty”, then Chewbacca is an illegal alien on Endor, and you must acquit my client.
Monster – I always like reading things like those, they really dead-center my sense of humor.
Just a note, in case anyone should need this advice: In the case of needing to change a broken light bulb, take a medium potato and push it down over the broken bulb and use it as a handle to unscrew the bulb. Throw away the broken bulb and the potato, and install the new bulb.
Since we’re on lightbulb jokes:
Q: How many mice does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Two. But how they got in the lightbulb we’ll never know. *buzzer*
Is that Buddhists screwing in your lightbulb or quantum physicists? A la Schrodinger’s light bulb screwers.
Q. How many Surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A. Fish.
and back to the king – we never did have the black velvet Elvis – but we DID have a black velvet Johnny Cash
Posted by: Gideon300 | June 26, 2007 11:39 AM
“Can someone tell me how to overhaul a 9N Ford tractor?”
Probably. But if I can’t, I’ve got a few vintage Motors manuals that should help.
“Can sourdough starter be used in cornbread?”
I don’t see why not. You need baking power and baking soda if you’re using plain corn meal. Although my Daddy once told me (in the middle of a discussion between me and my Mother on how to make cornbread) “You can make it with corn meal and water. But you’d better eat it while it’s hot unless you want to break your teeth.”
“Who put the ram in the ramalamadingdong?”
Um….the Edsels?
Gideon300, I found the transcript of the Sayet lecture, and present here its central thesis (emphasis mine):
Read the whole thing. Listen to the speech, several times. Tell your friends. It lays out exactly what we’re up against, and why our attempts to engage them in rational debate always fail.
And it allows me to confidently make a prediction. When we declare that we want to be better people, so that we can contribute to better communities, comprising better nations in a better world, I give you an iron-clad guarantee Ejectia will arouse the ire of this nihilistic ideology. Expect this sort of ‘thinking’:
We’ve got an original manual for the 1962 CASE diesel tractor, plus the parts book. In case anyone needs to know about this particular tractor.
As to the nilhilists, they have guaranteed they will not survive
in the gene pool. Maybe the meek will indeed inherit the earth.
And now for something completely different
The Anti-Terror Campaign that Succeeded
http://tinyurl.com/28ekxu
After their military defeat by regular forces, the occupied population produced terrorists who engaged in bombings, sniping, poisonings, and other attacks on occupation forces and on the civilian population. They operated as irregulars in small terror units, armed with automatic weapons and bazookas.
Women and minors as young as eight participated in the terror attacks. They attempted to build weapons of mass destruction, using chemical poisons. They assassinated officials of the occupation regime. They had a special obsession with torturing and murdering “collaborators.” They murdered hundreds of civilians, while thousands of the terrorists themselves were killed by the occupation armed forces. The occupiers responded to terror with brutality and force, sometimes using collective punishment.
The above does notrefer to or describe the anti-American and anti-British terror in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nor does it describe Palestinian terrorism against Israel launched from the West Bank and Gaza.
What it does refer to is the campaign of terrorism directed against Allied forces in Europe in the aftermath of the defeat of Nazi Germany. The terrorists were members of a number of underground “resistance” organizations attempting to punish the Allied “occupiers” and drive them out. The most important of the terror groups was known as Werwolf (German for werewolf).
Until recently, relatively little was known about groups like Werwolf. But several books, particularly those authored by Perry Biddiscombe, a professor of history at the University of British Columbia, have shed light on the activities of the groups and on the anti-terror strategies that ultimately defeated them.
Most of what follows is based on the research of Biddiscombe. There are valuable lessons to be learned from the campaign against the Werwolf, both for the U.S.-led coalition fighting in Iraq and for Israel in its battles against Arab terrorism.
For many years now the conventional wisdom has been that terrorism cannot be defeated militarily, that it can only be stopped when its underlying grievances are redressed and appeased. Moreover, the entire strategy of dealing with terrorism militarily has long been under assault by the Western chattering classes as ineffective and unjust.
Anti-terror tactics used by the contemporary Allies in Iraq and Afghanistan or by Israel against its enemies have been denounced by the media and by countless public figures, especially in Western Europe. But the claim that terrorism and guerilla warfare cannot be defeated militarily is false, as illustrated by the campaign against the Werwolf.
—————-
Read the whole thing, as someone says.
Monster – thanks for that link – a fantastic essay.
I had a similar discussion with a good friend and partisan dem recently – he was wanting to know how to fix an institution we’re both in, one that has a LOT of liberals – I told him that the problem was that in trying to fix the problem of old (1950′s era) rules that were wrong, rather than change them, too many of them just threw out the notion of rules at all. Without rules it becomes a free for all – and thus not a conducive environment to the ends (in this case, educational)set forth by the organization in the first place. To fix it we needed a few basic rules that we enforced strictly. People needed to know what to expect so they could grow within it.
(although, here’s an interesting article on spontaneous order arising in a lawless environment – http://www.peterleeson.com/An-arrgh-chy.pdf
However, one can make the argument that this represents the dark side of pure objectivism – spontaneous order can and will arise in a completely profit/WIIFM driven society, but it may not be best for everyone, or conducive to long life expectancies.
Q: How many mice does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Two. But how they got in the lightbulb we’ll never know. – WayneB
Thank you for playing ladies and gentlemen, but I think we have a winner.
Ripper,
Here is another example of irregular forces crushed by experienced troops. Unfortunately, the common denominator in both of our examples seems to be excessive brutality.
Synopsis
Within days of the D-Day landings, the ‘Das Reich’ 2nd SS Panzer Division marched north through France to reinforce the front-line defenders of Hitler’s Fortress Europe. Veterans of the bloodiest fighting of the Russian Front, 15,000 men with tanks and artillery, they were hounded for every mile of their march by saboteurs of the Resistance and agents of the Allied Special Forces. Along their route they took reprisals so savage they will live forever in the chronicles of the most appalling atrocities of war. “My literary VC goes without doubt to Max Hastings for his Das Reich… the story of a march that left behind a trail of blood and death, torture and heroism… the slaughter and burning to death of 642 men, women and children of Oradour-sur-Glane… the hanging of 99 civilians from the lamp-posts of Tulle as a reprisal for Maquis action.”
What lesson are we to draw from this given our present circumstances?
Svin
Svin – From what I have read in other places, winning in war is dependent on a resolve to crush the enemy mercilessly with little regard to “collateral damage”. In the instances cited above, it may or may not have been useful to perform retributory attacks directly upon civilians.
I believe, though I have no proof, that if you show a willingness to destroy enemy emplacements and fighters utterly and completely (for example, returning sniper fire with tank rounds, or at least multiple grenade launcher rounds), THEN YOU ALSO help the civilians after the threat has been neutralized, it would be the most effective. The reasons for this are:
1) The enemy would finally get the message that hiding amongst civilians will not save them.
2) Both civilians and terrorists would learn that we have the will to win.
3) Civilians would get the message that fighters and terrorists hiding amongst them are more dangerous than the terrorists are.
4) Some civilians witnessing the aftermath would still understand that we have nothing against them, just a determination to win.
I think the incidents of civilians turning in the terrorists would skyrocket, and we would get an incredible amount done in a very short time.
When I read these definitions of nihilism, it is depressing how many people in high profile and places of high authority come to my mind:
ni�hil�ism (n-lzm, n-) KEY
NOUN:
Philosophy
An extreme form of skepticism that denies all existence.
A doctrine holding that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated.
Rejection of all distinctions in moral or religious value and a willingness to repudiate all previous theories of morality or religious belief.
The belief that destruction of existing political or social institutions is necessary for future improvement.
also Nihilism A diffuse, revolutionary movement of mid 19th-century Russia that scorned authority and tradition and believed in reason, materialism, and radical change in society and government through terrorism and assassination.
Psychiatry A delusion, experienced in some mental disorders, that the world or one’s mind, body, or self does not exist.
Monopticus, your An-arrgh-cy story illustrates that since time immemorial, tribalism has held members of the tribe to a standard of conduct toward one another that they don’t grant to outsiders. It demonstrates why the argument
I agree wholeheartedly – In fact I think there is probably a Freedom Laffer curve for govt -too much and it tends towards authoritarianism, either of the nanny or fatherland variety, too little and it tends towards tribalism and rule by the sword – In fact I have argued that the real problem in the middle east is that BOTH extreme ends of the freedom Laffer curve are working at odds with each other AND us – the former from the Ba’athists and others with their WWI/II era franco-german theories of governance and the latter from the OBL factions of the Muslim brotherhood who seek to restore the stability of the 7th/8th century tribes under the Kaliph. In fact I can almost see whose in charge depending on whether the tactics are from the Jihad Medina period playbook (WTC Ver 1.0, 9-11, Spain, the attacks on “impure” Muslims) or the Marx/Lenin playbook (Hezbollah’s media war, AQIZ bombing and beheading everyone in site under Zarqawi, Bali, etc)
I had this argument with a generally conservative leaning (mugged by 9-11 reality) but otherwise liberal in outlook colleague. His position is that “we form govt to do things for us”, whereby my counterposition is that “we create govt to provide stability so we can do things for ourselves”.
Personally, I think the essential value of govt is to provide structure and predictability. When people know what is expected of them and have trust that the validity of their social and economic contracts will be supported and protected by the state – then they can plan for a future – and future looking people are free and prosperous. When this is lacking, and everything is up for grabs if the politics shifts the other way, then they have to horde for defense, and that may make people look backwards and stew on past grievances to identify people that may attack them. My chief concern with much of what exists nowadays is that it is becoming too easy for a relatively small group to convince/bribe the state to take action against some other people on trumped up “damages” , and the resulting uncertainty clouds everyone’s actions.
For example Muscledaddy and I had a long talk on SARBOX, I’m agin it, at least in principle, even though we both agree that given ENRON et al, it was probably inevitable.
My problem is that now the uncertainty associated with going public, and how the govt regulators may twist a companies new data to make a “case” against them, keeps smaller companies from doing so – because the risks outweigh the benefits. Larger companies probably could’ve used a dose of accountability in many cases, and are easily capitaled to deal with SARBOX. Its the future public companies that now WON’T be, that concern me.
In Heinlein’s Moon is a Harsh Mistress – one of the protagonists was a self described “rational anarchist” which is probably close to a O-word fundamentalist.
Of course, the challenge is not so much “how much govt is there” to which the right answer is “it depends” but how govt (and the people who create it) sees its role, thus determining how it will change over time. Depending on the answer to THAT question, the point on the Laffer curve may tend to stay towards the middle , or it may tend to roll off towards the end. (I.e. one govt outlook – the “stability” role, is a “U”, with its equilibrium at the center, the “do things for us” role curve is a hump, and will either tend to do TOO MUCH for us and make us complacent(i.e. where England seems to have tread), or, having failed spectacularly in making good on its overpromises, fly apart entirely (where Europe seems to be going).
Mea Culpa – last post was by me…had a reply on the brain and I had no intention of spoofing your name
WayneB,
“… winning in war is dependent on a resolve to crush the enemy mercilessly with little regard to “collateral damage”. In the instances cited above, it may or may not have been useful to perform retributory attacks directly upon civilians.”
I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment. In the case of the 2SS Panzer, even though they obviously did not help the civil population afterward, their barbarity was rewarded. Orders were issued from London for the French resistance and the Maquis to cease all operations in the Dordogne. The Reprisals had negated any advantage the sporadic resistance may have generated.
Here is an interesting question(to me at least).
Given that the MSM is acting as a fifth column for the Terrorists, what amount of violence constitutes an appropriate response, and can the resultant collateral damage to the First Amendment be repaired afterwards?
Svin
Thanks for clarifying, Monopticus. (Be careful — we should never put our nyms together, given the connotations that would be evoked.) I looked at that and thought “I could have written most of this”, but sure didn’t remember doing it.
You’ll recall Professor de la Paz having to explain that while he was NOT one of Those People himself, he could live with them.
His point is that putting on a badge to go with your gun does not inherently grant your actions moral authority. (See also: “I was following orders”, Nürnburg Trials)
BLAINE: Your original offer was accepted shortly after 15 June. However, the address you supplied is not complete. Please resend your offer from a different account if you can. Thank you!
Gideon 300,
Reading your post on nihilism opened a long lost file. Anyone else here remember The Fugs?
“Monday nothing, Tuesday nothing, Wednesday and Thursday nothing. Friday for a change a little more nothing, Saturday once more nothing.”
Sorry if my question causes any flashbacks.
Good people of Ejectia
If you(y’all) would begin a thread on Nihilism, I would first suggest that you bone up on your Nietzsche.
Revaluation of all values!
“The Antichrist”
“Beyond Good and Evil”
“Als Spracht Zarathustra”
Bizarre Stoff.
If you thought the O-word thingie was out of control, you aint seen nothin’yet.
I think Bill is right. Save it for the Arena. I will be there.
Svin
Svin, I certainly hope that topics won’t be declared off-limits everywhere but in the formal debate millieu. That wouldn’t be nearly as entertaining or enlightening as what we have when people can discuss even the most controversial issues in a friendly, informal environment.
I have, however, floated the idea with the management at Chase Lounge that the guests at any given table might agree to such provisions amongst themselves. If you’re sitting at a table in the ‘no nihilism’ section, I’d respect that just like I hope smokers respect my wishes when I ask to be seated in the no smoking section. On the other hand, I think it’s abominable that governments have mandated that entire establishments must now be no smoking sections. And I really don’t like cigarette smoke.
just for the record, and because you’re riffin’ through my taxonomy here … how many anything it takes to screw in a lightbulb, or change one, is pretty irrelevant.
’cause what y’all are calling lightbulbs ain’t bulbs, them things are properly named “lamps” … and them things y’all call lamps. Well, them’s actually called “fixtures”.
Of course, I didn’t know that until I got neck deep in the ontology swamp and had to build a taxonomy to get me out.
Even worse than handling all the misnomers is dealing with regional colloquialisms. (isms are dangerous beasties)
We have far worse things to deal with that the omnipresent hood vs. bonnet, and trunk vs. boot differences. Some of the synonyms for common hand tools number in the dozens.
I will have to remember the changing of the bulb soliloquey, though … that’ll get a good laugh at the next MRO Taxonomy meeting. How elegant and and cost effective it would be to chaqnge the state of a lamp from “burnt” to “on” … LOL.
Although my stepfather was a magician at keeping his 8N Ford tractor running for over 40 years … and adding on toys that he hand built like a snowplow, heat shield, and his piece-de-resistance – a functioning backhoe (it’s sad when that much genius passes on) … I can help if the subect gets to Kubota tractors …
Monster, Don’t tell me we are going to have to excuse ourselves and go down and stand with Marvin in the garage to have a smoke at TCL! Now you are just taking the demonization of smokers too far. How exactly, is my smoking a virtual cigaratte going to harm you in any way? O’h, I get it. Smokers are just evil and must be forced into isolation. Next it will be: How many smokers does it take to screw in a lightbulb? and off we go again.
Answer: Who gave them a damn light? No heat; No roof; No light. Outside is too good for them smokers. Is there a cold wet cave anywhere nearby?
oh yeah … and that King thing … I have to admit that my choice of R&R king changes as I age. Currently I’m more likely to fire up a Bob Seegar track or thirty than any others (if the topic is R&R). Based on my collection, I’ve heard of Elvis, but Chuck Berry, Screamin’ Richard, and most others mensioned aren’t represented.
Hmm … but I do still have a cut of Alice’s Restaurant. Darn. I’m even crazier than I thought! I STILL like Gordon Lightfoot and Ian Tyson stiil can make me stop and listen to the whole track. (that’ll have a few of you googling, heh)
Time for another wee dram of Irish and beddy-bye. Tomorrow I must rise early to defend the honor of nouns and their little modifiers from those who would make them one. Evil lurks everywhere. (yeah, that should have been one wee dram LESS … I concur)
Monster,
I agree with you…and I don’t.
I agree that all topics should be allowed in the general discussion, provided that gentles understand that rapiers may not be drawn absent the insult direct.
I disagree with the segregated tables idea. Perhaps a scheduled Common Room topic time would serve: “Tonight: Nihilism. Is There Anything To It? Emcee: Svinrod”.
Chase’s could also offer a room for congenial conversation (I would suggest the Algonquin Round Table Room)where those of us who have already answered the Great Questions to our own satisfaction and are comfortable in our own skin can poke fun at each other with out acrimony.
Unquiet, virtual cigarettes don’t produce “second-hand smoke”, but I’ve seen dumber ideas enforced by the thought police.
As much as I hate cigarette smoke, I hate Nanny Statism at least an order of magnitude more. I can take my business to an establishment with a decent ventilation system that allows the smokers and I to peacefully coexist, but the smokers aren’t allowed to take theirs to one that accommodates them when the long arm of the law gets involved.
“Outside is too good for them smokers.”
One cold winter day I was going into a building to conduct some business, and saw a couple of smokers standing outside. I told them that even though I hate cigarette smoke, it’s wrong that they’re forced out in the cold like that. How hard is it to have one lousy room set aside (with the HVAC set up to produce slightly higher air pressure in the adjoining hallway, and the returns equipped with decent filters) to keep the smoke from bothering borderline asthmatics like me?
I mean, what’s next, making them wear a yellow cigarette on their shirts? Smashing their windows and sending them off to camps?
USBeast,
I would much rather have a seat in the Algonquin Round Table Room than anywhere else. I learned a long time ago that rational argument(or even irrational argument) will never change an adult humans Weltanschauung.
I am quite comfortable in my own skin. I have nothing to prove. I do have a few poor obversations to share about life on this planet.
One of which is that I have greatly enjoyed meeting everyone here.
G-3, Unquiet, TheMonster, USBeast, D4, Muscledaddy, Mr. Paules,Bill W.,Qwer, Rickbert, Maggie, et.al.
It has been great!
Looking forward to the Grand Opening. Hope to see Y’all there.
Best regards,
Svin
Rooms and segregation and topics, OH MY!
It’s called The Chase LOUNGE for a reason!
Come on in. Sit a spell. Kick your shoes off. Ya’ll come back now, y’hear?
The Chase Lounge shall not be serious.
Thus spoke daddyquatro: Head pizza cook and bar back.
Monster,
The US corporate headquarters of my employer had just such a room. It even had a smoke zapper in the ceiling to catch any larger particles that might drift up.
But the local town council passed a decree that all places of business shall be smoke free. So they locked the room and sent us outside. In Chicago! In January!
Don’t get me wrong, smoking is a nasty habit. I haven’t smoked in the house since baby uno was born. But, as long as tobacco is a legal substance, how can you decree how a business owner can conduct his business?
One of my “If I were rich” fantasies is to pick a municipality that has passed a smoking ban and open a club called “Smokers”.
Only smokers can work there. You have to show a pack to be admitted. You want your non-smoking friend to come in with you? “I’m sorry sir; we can not accept the liability of exposing your friend to EVIL second hand smoke. May I suggest the Blue Sky Bar around the block?”
You couldn’t call that discrimination, could you?
“I STILL like Gordon Lightfoot…”
Pete…
Now if we are going to talk about bad 70′s-era AM radio, count me in!
I’ve just been standing against the wall listening to everyone’s conversations about Nihilism and Virtual Cigarettes…
Can I get anyone a beer?
“the guests at any given table might agree to such provisions amongst themselves” – The Monster
“Well, in all my years I ain’t never heard, seen, nor smelled an issue that was so dangerous it couldn’t be talked about. Hell yeah! I’m for debating anything.” – Stephen Hopkins, 1776
I’m even prepared to debate the many potential benefits that may derive from eating our young.
The only table I’m not prepared to join is the one occupied by those will not hold themselves to the same standards they apply to others. Or, in the words of my soon-to-be sig when Ejectia proper opens, “Arguing principle from convenience is no principle at all.”
Smoke ‘em if ya got ‘em.
USBeast: The Fugs? Tuli Kupferberg, Ed Sanders… Yeah, I remember. Haven’t thought about them in years, but I remember. I still have a copy of Sanders’s solo album “Sanders Truckstop” floating around the house somewhere…
Pete: Never heard of Chuck Berry or Little (not Screaming) Richard? (Did you mean Screamin’ Jay Hawkins, perhaps?) Oh my friend, you need RocknRoll Remedial. Let us educate you…
Beast again: The Algonquin Round Table Room? How elitist! What about other Indian tribes, and other geometrical shapes? And other bits of furniture? Where is the Chippewa Octagonal Sofa Room? Or the Navajo Trapezoidal Sideboard Room? (Yes, I get the original allusion.
)
Hey Unquiet!!!
Something we have in common… I, too, am an EVIIIILLL smoker… Have been for (cough, cough) over 30 years, and have not found the will to quit yet. I respect the rights of those who do NOT smoke, but I do have a problem with “smoking nazis” from time to time.
Once, back in the mid-90′s, I believe, I was traveling through Orlando airport on a consulting assignment. It had been an arduous trip. Had a few hours to kill before my flight, so went to the airport lounge for a beer and a smoke. When I entered, the place was empty, except for the D4-guy behind the bar. It was a fairly large room, as airport lounges go. I sat at the bar, with an ashtray in front of me already in place. Ordered my beer, and lit up.
Before I finished the cigarette, a “gentle person of the male persuasion” sat two bar stools away. Mind you, when he sat, I was actively and obviously smoking. After a bit, I put that smoke out, finished my beer. Orderd another beer, and got another cigarette ready to light.
Before I could light it, the ONLY OTHER PERSON IN THE PLACE, (not the tarbender) SITTING AT THE BAR, WITH AN ASH TRAY IN FRONT OF HIS OWN SEAT, requested that I not smoke.
Luckily, before I could respond, the tarbender interceded, and offered to move the “gentleman” to a table elsewhere in the room, where “the ventilation is better than at the bar.”
Had he not, I might have said (or done) something I might still regret. I was quickly beginning to get a bit warm under the collar at that moment.
The unmitigated gall of some never ceases to amaze me from time to time, eh?
On another topic… For those born and raised since the advent of the programmable computing machine:
Q: How many programmers does it take to change a light bulb?
A: It can not be done. It is a hardware issue.
…. quietly “killing time” till OPENING DAY!!!
Best to ALL !!!
Good morning all.
Today’s morning brew is
Bavarian Wild Berry.
Great taste.
To show how out of the loop
I am on purchasing movies on
dvds, my ignorance shined
yesterday evening.
Having picked up “The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly”, along with “The Quiet Man”,
I was carded!
Of course it’s quite obvious I am
no longer under the age of 17,
so the whole procedure was
irrelevant and ridiculous.
I was informed it is now the
regulation to do so just as
with cigarettes and booze.
I was shocked and let out my
opinion of how nanny state it
was.
These two movies are considered too violent.
Good grief.
‘Morning Maggie.
Your story reminds me of something GHS said a little while back:
(paraphrasing) ‘Ejectia will have no Stop signs, only Yield signs – Yield signs are a reminder to politely give way when someone else is already there, while Stop signs are an edict you’re expected to obey regardless of need or sense.’
What brand are your teas, generally? I have a fairly impressive collection myself (though only coffee @ work)
- MuscleDaddy
Wow! I found this site while Googling “submarine bumper stickers.” Damn good search engine that Google. Wish I’d bought it at $80. I emailed Bill off line and volunteered to teach the basics of nuclear power plants, past, present, and future. I can teach a rock.
Immigration bill defeated 46-53 according to Real Clear Politics.
Svin
Rickbert, I only wish more people were like you.
I remember a cartoon in which someone yells out “Duck!” at Donald Duck, who is walking along a sidewalk. He turns toward the person speaking to him with a foul (fowl?) expression, as if he thinks the speaker is hurling a racial epithet at him.
The speaker repeats the ejaculation: “DUCK!”, but Donald ignores it.
A third time, the speaker screams at him: “DUCK!”, but to no avail. Donald’s head smacks into a low-hanging tree branch, and he falls on his feathered rump.
Donald was so certain that he was being ethnically insulted that it never occurred to him that it was just someone genuinely concerned for his well-being. Maybe he’s been called ‘Duck’ as some kind of put-down so many times that he’s incapable of imputing any other meaning.
Some people observe such situations and decide it’s better not to touch the Tar Baby in the first place. Others realize they can’t even call it by its proper name, as a few Scheißeköpfe have attached other connotations, and screwed it up for everyone.
OK, that makes TWICE now that the Preview was fine, but the finished product converted ö to ö or similar nonsense.
Damn you, Döugman!
Hey ScrapIron!
Got to get you with Monopticus – he’s a nuke, too!
Welcome (sub bumperstickers and all)
- MuscleDaddy
Submarine bumper stickers? Oh, boy.
Scrap Iron – my big issue with Nuke plants is convincing people they’re not as damn dangerous as they think!
I think I’ll go build a fusion reactor in my barn, instead.
WayneB:
I hope these links are helpful in your task of convincing people:
Nuclear PowerPlant Safety Operations
Nuclear safety
Generation IV reactors
(That last one isn’t really about nuclear safety, it’s just cool. Well, those reactors ought to be inherently safer than Gen II and III ones.)
Hey all! This is my first comment on this site, though I’ve been here for a few months. Just introducing myself before I show up in ejectia. I thought I was comfortable living where I was, but after hearing ejectia will have an arena, I packed my bags. I can’t wait for a chance to engage in philosophical gladiator games, if anyone is interested in such things. If not, I might start a few barroom brawls at Chase’s (hopefully without getting charged with disorderly conduct
Luminos 6/28 10:52 AM –
Welcome along… Glad to have you!
When constructed, the Arena is going to be awesome! There will be both longer term, “deep”-subject debates, lasting up to a week in duration, and there will be “live” or “almost live” Lightening Rounds for your viewing/participating pleasures!
In places like the Library, there will probably be on-going Forums, with nested comments that will be another form of participation in longer term discussions!
And in the ever-popular “watering hole” known as Chase Lounge, each Table will be Chat-enabled, so the individuals at that table can carry on as they wish.
The underlying absolute must, as I’m sure you gather, is civility, and respect for others.
Looking forward to hearing more from you! And ALL!
Afternoon MuscleDaddy
My tea collection is everything
from Lipton to Twinings, Celestial to Fusions and beyond.
I have been trying to locate a
particular Darjeeling that is
an Indian label lately.
Would it be so we could operate our society on yield signs instead of edicted stop signs.
“I can’t wait for a chance to engage in philosophical gladiator games” – Luminos
Maximus: Whatever comes out of these gates, we’ve got a better chance of survival if we work together. Do you understand? We stay together; we survive.
…
Commodus: My history’s a little hazy, Cassius, but shouldn’t the barbarians lose the battle of Carthage?
pete in Midland | June 27, 2007 8:04 PM
Pete,
You’re only crazy if you have the original album; the CD of the original album; the updated CD; the song book from the movie AND can sing/recite all 18 min. and 20 sec. of the song.
Now *I’M* crazy!
Scrap Iron were you a surface guy or a sub guy (I’m guessing by context it was the latter). I was a surface guy, myself. I wore a red shirt on the USS Enterprise and lived to tell about it!
I too am competent in the nuke teachin’, even though now I have one of those “my other vehicle is unmanned” bumper stickers.
Ever wonder why its only the dirty mnemonics (e.g. Resistor codes) that stay with you forever?
Welcome to you Scrap Iron and welcome back Luminos. Censorship will rear it’s swollen face against “Talk Radio” in our esteemed Congress. These meats forget their place. The next couple years are going to be the proverbial fork in the road for the uncowed we.
I am off for a double header.
Then brick paver heaven on the morrow with the handles of a wheel barrow callusing my hands. Yeah! Later
LL
Monopticus, I have an uncle out in Norman, OK who was a nuke engr on the USS Enterprise – back in the late 60′s and\or early 70′s – went on to work for Kermige (sp?) and then into Superfund cleanup. He was always the cool uncle with all the stories. Used to visit alot when they were in port down in Norfork, VA. He would be about 60 or 61 now. What era were you on the USS Enterprise?
LL, I think you’re wrong about our congresscritters and the Fairness Doctrine. It was a trial balloon that ended up looking much like the Hindenberg.
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/06/28/fairness-doctrine-watch-pence-on-the-house-floor/
Basically, Rep. Pence offered an amendment to the financial services appropriations bill to prevent FCC funds from being used to reinstitute the Fairness Doctrine. It will get a final vote this afternoon, but it’s dying quick.
Unquiet, it’s spelled Kerr-McGee. Or rather it was, before being bought out by Andarko.
Thick as a Brick:
I get up at 0500 during the summer to take advantage of the coolness afforded by the early hours. The native soil here in New Mexico can be brick-hard; it’s name, “caliche”, will bring groans from even hardened day laborers. I’ve been hacking at it now for a week in an effort to build a brick patio. The stuff has been known to break teeth off a Bobcat; it’s that hard.
A thousand swings of the pick later, and ten-thousand curses, I finally excavated a most beautiful hole. All nice and square with a perfect pitch running just away from the house. I rammed home a frame with treated 4×4′s and rebar, packed the hole with gravel, added landscaping fabric, and then a layer of packed sand. Nice. All I need is brick. A nice herring-bone pattern, I think.
I priced my options at the local Home Depot and then headed for the local brickyard. I picked my brick and headed for the office. It was staffed by a single secretary.
“Good morning,” I said, “I’d like to purchase 1200 of these.”
“Bricks are not for sale,” she answered curtly.
In situations like this my brain instantly kicks into overdrive, and frequently my tongue as well. I didn’t respond with the dozen or so things I might have said: “This is a bloody brickyard, is it not? I mean, I’m not asking for a Persian carpet. I am in the right place? Let me get this straight, you have precisely one product, but it’s not for sale?” No, I didn’t say any of these things, but the thoughts were there.
Affecting a Southern accent I replied: “I beg your pardon, m’am, may I inquire why?”
“Those bricks are not part of inventory. We got them from a supplier that hasn’t sent us an invoice. And he won’t because he’s gone out of business.”
Adam Smith wass whispering in my right ear: “You have something I want that isn’t doing you squat sitting in the yard. I have cash.”
Don Rickles was whispering in my other ear: “Let’s make a deal.”
“What kind of deal?”
“A deal, deal” you stupid *girl*.
No, again I held my tongue. “Well, m’am, it’s the boss’s property and he can do with it what he wants. Gotta respect that.” I could see her soften ever so slightly. “May I speak to the boss?”
“Not here,” she said.
“Well, m’am, maybe I could leave my number. If the boss wants to move them, I’m buying.”
A day later the call came back. I could have them for forty cents each, but no delivery. Cool! That’s a savings of $400 over retail.
This morning I went down to the brickyard to make the deal. The initial offer had changed to fifty-three cents on the whim of the boss. Cash only.
“Well, m’am, I don’t generally carry $500 in cash. I guess I need to go to the bank. But fifty-three cents is a breach of contract. Can I talk to the boss.”
“Never mind,” says she. “It’s forty cents, you haul them. I run the computer.”
The story isn’t over. I go down to the yard for the load up. A pallet won’t fit in my Ford Ranger. And a pallet of brick is too heavy to boot. What to do?
“Senior, . . . (in a whole string of Spanish I didn’t understand) ending in con manos“. Yep, the pick-up had to be done a brick at a time. The yard jockeys loaded two-forty, and I threw them a twenty with many thanks in my gringo Spanish: “Lunche is on me.”
When I returned, the yard crew had the second load prepared on a narrow skid. And later the second, third, fourth and final loads. Proof positive, if any were needed, that a single Alexander Hamilton is worth more than a bank (pun fully intended).
Oh, and I got carded for beer on my last trip home. Yehaw! What a day.
The moral: A man should assert himself. He needs to stand forth when his material advantage is at stake, and demand what’s best for himself. But there’s a best method and a best way to carry out the process. Always with respect. “How” you say things is as important as what you say. What is good for material advantage holds also for ideas. Assert yourself, but do so in a way that will bring people to your side. Because if you fail in the process, no matter how good your ideas, you’re still thick as a brick.
With a nod to Ian Anderson.
~Paules
It will get a final vote this afternoon, but it’s dying quick.
Posted by: Ripper | June 28, 2007 2:56 PM
Sometimes death is very good.
Mark Paules,
“But fifty-three cents is a breach of contract.”
Actually, you should check with a lawyer on that. Typically, a contract requires offer, acceptance, and consideration. Until something of value changes hands, there’s no contract. But the secretary is probably too young to have watched The Paper Chase, where I got my legal training (having never slept in a Holiday Inn Express).
The words ‘fraud’ and ‘bait-and-switch’ do come to mind, however. As well as some others you have the good manners not to repeat.
(And it’s Andrew Jackson on the twenty.)
But I still give it 5 Asterisks: *****
Way to go, Mark … my (wellworn) hat is off to you, sir.
I have mostly overcome my inate shyness over the years (success seems to do that to you – earning success, anyway) … but salesfolk making 1/10 my income seems to render me speechless … or at least (useful) wordless. BUT … I have a deadly secret weapon. My dear sweet Yeller Rose of Texas would be happy to intercede for me and make the owner pay me to haul the bricks away.
DougLoss (I like that) you’ll have to re-read my comment. “Based on my collection” … meaning I havde no wax, tape nor disc of those icons … as I never granted them iconship. I didn’t dislike them … justr never cared enough to donate my loonies/twonnies/Anthony’s or paper money.
Don — darn … guess I’m not that crazy afterall. I am planning ot excavate my wax … but that’s the only way I’ll have Arlo in any other format. I gotta like someone a whole lot more than “like” in order to buy an allbum I already have in another media.
Nigel … whadya mean “bad”??? You’d better make that a Duvel or a comperaqble belgian beer for that.
Immigration bill defeated 46-53 according to Real Clear Politics.
Svin
And that’s a good thing … speaking as a legal immigrant!
Monster,
Thanks for the corrrection and the 5x(*). What an irony that I can’t actually see the damn bills anymore even as I’m being carded for beer. Can’t actually see what’s on the keyboard anymore either. I do see legs, however. No problem there. And I have a loading pallet to return for a fifteen dollar deposit. The morning will require a shower and shave. *SNORT* So kill me. I am a dog, but not a pig. Five * from the Monster is good enough tonight. The morning will take care of itself.
Mark,
My heart bleeds for ya. Here in the Ouachitas topsoil consists of dust and shale with a side order of flint.
Are there no equipment rental establishments out there or did you just feel a dire need to abuse yourself?
Wow…haven’t been by for a bit. Some very interesting voices here. Don’t know much about Objectivism, but I have read the Tobias Wolff story about Ayn Rand. But a question: wouldn’t the wannabe Objectivist (as opposed to the true Objectivist, if there were such a beast) be exposed by his need to talk about Objectivism?
Dear Beast,
Not self-abuse. No, never. I reckon perseverence as one of the virtues. Shale, flint, dust, clay, stone, or hot magna, it doesn’t matter. All must yield to human will. The will to power is the will to create. I attack the earth as a savage might. The primitive nature of my attack only confirms my superiority. All must yield before my onslaught. Can you see it, brother? We create with mind, body, and spirit. We are the masters. And master we will. Ad Astera.
Jimbouie,
Yes.
Svin
Mark Paules,
Channeling old F.N. tonight?
Creation is awesome!
Svin
Far be it from me to detract from Mr. Paules’s can-do spirit, but we live near by and the reason we built our fence ourselves is because all the contractors within a hundred miles are
a)Booked until Doomsday,
or
b)Charging in human organs.
Granted we did do some heavy equipment (jackhammer) rental anyway. And having the direct experience with the soil, it’s… very impressive that he did without.
Hey Mark- my father-in-law is an architect, and although you didn’t name the brickyard it all sounds familiar enough that I’m pretty sure our family has had dealings with them as well.
Well, it’s gettin’ late. I think I’ll read a Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comic before bed. Maybe I’ll listen to a little Firesign Theatre, or maybe a little Spookytooth.
Decisions, decisions.
G-3,
Umm…Drugs are bad. Mmmmkay?
Dear Mark,
Having spent far too many hours at the wrong end of an idiot stick out of necessity and too many more out of sheer cussedness I can relate. If that is what floats your boat, have at it and good on ya.
As for me, the glory of man is the mind of man and I don’t mind in the least employing Ditch Witch or dynamite when it comes to putting a hole in ground that thinks it’s tougher than I am. The day will come when it may well be, but I hope I’m under it before it has a right to think it’s smarter.
I wore a red shirt on the USS Enterprise and lived to tell about it!
monopticus – You need that on a T-Shirt!
Hmm… My father told me that the DE he was on in WWII accidentally lobbed a depth charge at the Enterprise one time during maneuvers. He said the captain was not happy. I wonder why?
Jimbouie, your reference to Wolff reminded me of the time that The Bride of Monster got mad at me for something that she’d dreamt that I’d done.
Then I thought of Joy Behar’s remarks on Senator Tim Johnson’s stroke:
“Is there such a thing as a man-made stroke? In other words, did someone do this to him?”
When Elizabeth Hasselbeck questioned the conspiratorial tone of this theory, she replied:
“I know what this–that party is capable of.”
And then I thought about all of the Global Warming computer models that all predict ecological catastrophe, which are taken as some sort of proof by those willing to See the Unseen. Inconvenient Truths, hockey sticks, and … balls.
Dreams, conspiracy theories, computer models, and fictional depictions tell us less about the reality they purport to describe than they do about those who create them.
By the way, I informed TBoM that as flattering as it may be hear that I am the Man of her Dreams, I am not responsible for his actions.
G-3,
Umm…Drugs are bad. Mmmmkay?
Posted by: svinrod
I agree 100%. I’m a 61 year old father of 8 and grandfather of 4. People on this thread have been talking about old artists and tape players, etc. I never mentioned drugs. Don’t jump to conclusions. Mmmmkay?
Yo Monster,
“By the way, I informed TBoM that as flattering as it may be hear that I am the Man of her Dreams, I am not responsible for his actions.”
Having had similar experiences with She Who Must Be Obeyed and just by way of comparing notes, did your declaration of lack of responsibility do you any good/get you off the hook?
Gideon300 – I took Svinrod’s comments as a bit of a joke, just poking a little fun at those band names you were talking about.
“Dreams, conspiracy theories, computer models, and fictional depictions tell us less about the reality they purport to describe than they do about those who create them.” – The Monster
You don’t say… (He said, in the best suggestively cryptic tone he could muster, now that the opening of the Ejectia Library of Experience is less than a week away.)
Gideon300 6/28 8:18 PM –
Firesign Theater, huh? HHHMMMmmmmm, for some reason, that brings the Plague to mind…
I used to ROFLMA back in the day, listening to those guys, and I did the audio set-up at a concert they gave one time…
Now, my tastes tend more toward Abbott and Costello… “Who’s on First” — a REAL comedy classic!!!
Unquiet, I am much more recent vintage. I was there from 1994-96. Of course, shes been around a while so EVERYBODY seems to have big E stories, Funny, shes the only ship I was on still in commision ad she’s the oldest!
Built back in the day – the lower decks were several feet thick and we had armour belts around the whole ship!
USBeast, it’s difficult to say whether my disclaimer made any difference at all. I have come to the conclusion that there are certain times that she’s going to be mad; pointing out to her that the rationalization she offers is misplaced only inspires her to construct another.
Example:
At this point, having confirmed that I’m a smartass, she has a perfectly sound reason to be angry at me.
G-3
Apoligies to you Sir! WayneB is correct, it was an attempt at humor. From what I can remember of the seventies, Firesign theatre and the Fab Furry Freak Bros.(R.Crumb?) were usually best enjoyed in a semi darkened environment permeated by a haze of funky smelling smoke. Just my recollection.
The “Drugs are Bad… Mmmmkay?” line is a running gag on the Show South Park. No disrespect intended.
Regards~Svin
Monster,
Probably want to watch providing more material for additional rationalization constructs…
She might build one tall enough to stand on – and kick you in your crystal balls.
- MuscleDaddy
Posted by: svinrod | June 29, 2007 7:54 AM
Forgive me Svin. I’m certain I was too sensitive. Please understand that during that period of my life, I was indeed in those dark rooms stoned out of my head and blindly going down a path of destruction, blinded by black lights and strobes and the spirit of those times.
I escaped with my life and my sanity at the age of 28, with only minimal damage to my mind. My youngest child is now 17 and none of my children follow my previous dark path. I have honestly shared my past with them, and they have been wise enough to take heed to my warnings and my council.
I am just very protective of my reputation, and I misunderstood your post. I don’t watch South Park, therefore I missed the gag line The “Drugs are Bad… Mmmmkay?”
Now I offer you my apologies. I was the one who jumped to conclusions.
Regards
Firesign Theater–Proctor, Bergman, Ossman, and Austin…I remember them well. I don’t know what any of them are doing these days, but I know they were still active up till about 1998.
Firezine: The Digital Magazine of The Firesign Theatre
For everyone who enjoyed Firesign, may I recommend The Flying Karamazov Brothers?
“She might build one tall enough to stand on – and kick you in your crystal balls.”
Impossible. I don’t have any crystal balls. If I did, I wouldn’t be insensitive!
Hi all. Global warming reared its ugly head last night during my son’s double header. I think it was 50 degrees out there. Cooled off +/-20 degrees since the afternoon. This is at the end of June. Mmmmm?
Disastrous ball games…enough said.
Paul, I feel your pain almost but not quite. My soil is a breeze to move compared to yours. Do you even need substrate with ground that hard? Other than sand that is?
How big is your patio? Mine is small, 250 square feet. Speaking of the devil gotta go sweat a bit.
L8R
LL
Okay, balls-of-opportunity then.
Bein’ the kind, gentle flow’r that the lass no doubt is, I’m sure she wouldn’t find in her heart the capacity to discriminate based on …materialism.
(I guess that works)
The upside, of course, being proof positive of your…sensitivity.
- MuscleDaddy
G-3
No apologies necessary. It seems that we have much more in common than just an interest in firearms.
WALSTIB!
Svin
I haven’t read all the comments, but many seem to assume Ejectia is a republic.
I respectfully disagree that it is, and I respectfully disagree that it should be.
If you look at a list of of the freest countries in the world, you will see the list is dominated by Constitutional Monarchies: Britain, Canada, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Australia etc. If you look at the list of the least free countries in the world, you will find that list dominated by Republics, usually Socialist Republics. As in many things, the US is an aberration.
The king is often the best protection the people have against tyranny, and the founding fathers of the US understood the need for checks and balances – the very thing that makes a democratic constitutional monarchy work.
There is a man who “owns” the property known as Ejectia, who makes the rules, who holds the power of veto…
All hail King Bill!
MD, you have an excellent point. Once she’s got it in her head that she’s ready for some football, such niggling details as the actual composition of the ball shan’t deter her from her appointed task.
My only hope then is that the time it takes for her to climb the construct is sufficient for me to remove from the field any balls I’d prefer not be in play.
Johnny 100 Pesos
What source are you using for your ranking of Free versus Unfree states?
The United States incorporates, in it’s Bill of Rights to the Constitution, the Right of the people to keep and bear arms. This is the ultimate check against tyranny. I do not believe that any of the other states you have mentioned recognize such a fundamental right, therefore they are all less free than this nation. I would further argue that a “Socialist Republic” is an oxymoron.
Best regards from the Home of the Brave.~Svin
Mark Paules – re: Thick as a brick
That encounter with the brickyard bureaucrat had me grinning. Brought to mind the Cheese Shop sketch from Monty Python..
…
MOUSEBENDER:
Have you got any Limburger?
WENSLEYDALE:
No.
MOUSEBENDER:
That figures. Predictable really, I suppose. It was an act of purest optimism to have posed the question in the first place. Tell me:
WENSLEYDALE:
Yes, sir?
MOUSEBENDER:
Have you in fact got any cheese here at all?
WENSLEYDALE:
Yes, sir.
MOUSEBENDER:
Really?
(pause)
WENSLEYDALE:
No. Not really, sir.
Hi Svinrod!
To be honest, I can’t remember, I picked up the idea from several sources, including the historian Niall Ferguson, the thriller writer Frederic Forsyth (in one of his stories, to keep Russia from slipping back into tyranny, a Czar is returned to the throne), and a number of articles I read a few years ago. To be honest, the ideas were absorbed by me a few years ago (around the same time, I read a Mark Twain yarn that argued the opposite; I felt that if he were around today he would be of my opinion).
I am not saying that those other nations are freer than the US, just stating that the average democratic constitutional monarchy is freer than than most Republics. Most communist countries are republics, and while there are some free republics (America, France, etc…), for the most part republics tend not to be free (although there are also several moarchies that aren’t free, such as Saudi Arabia).
Because America is a Republic doesn’t mean all republics are free – the real system that creates freedom is democracy with checks and balances, like in the American Republic and constitutional monarchies.
As important as the right to bear arms is, I consider other things more important in gauging a nations’ freedom: freedom of the press, free speech, right to assembly, rule of law, right to property ownership, free market economy, democratic principles, etc. I don’t agree that a nation that has those things but also has tight gun laws to be unfree.
Now there are several definitions of republic, one is simply a nation without a monarch, but another is a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them (Websters). Most nations calling themselves republics go by the first definition, not the second (for instance, France after the revolution was possibly the first republic, but not a democracy). I have found that the words Republic and Democracy are not interchangeble.
Johnny 100 Pesos,
This seems to be the sticking point
“Most communist countries are republics”
Let’s try ever so slightly-different wording:
“Most communist countries are called ‘republics’”.
I present a one-act play to illustrate the difference….
“Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.” – Winston Smith, 1984
Johnny 100 Pesos-
to keep Russia from slipping back into tyranny, a Czar is returned to the throne
ROTFLMAO! Good one.
“Freedom” will be a worthy topic for the arena. In the interim, I’d like to know how “free” any people can be when they surrender forty, fifty or sixty percent of earned income to the government in taxes, as they do in Europe? The more income government controls, the less free are its people. One component of freedom would be my ability to dispose of my personal income as I see fit, and not as government sees fit to spend it. So how free am I as an American citizen? Not very. If I must work each year from January to May to cover my taxes, both overt and hidden, I conclude that I am barely half free.
Taxes are the worst tyranny. It puts power in the hands of politicians who then use it to rob the citizen of his rights and prerogatives. Government bureaucracy becomes established and demands my compliance to a whole myriad of laws not of my choosing. Under George Washington, the cabinet consisted of three: State, Treasury, and War. And the country was very free. Today we are less free than ever in our history. Every power that devolves to government usurps personal independence. We are no longer a free people.
The only compensation in this terrible state of affairs is the gift of capitalism. Even as the government takes half my income, I still enjoy material abundance like few in history. I don’t want more money because I want new toys. I want my money back because it affords me more choices. Choice is freedom. The lack of choice is tyranny.
Johnny 100 Pesos-
If you look at a list of of the freest countries in the world, you will see the list is dominated by Constitutional Monarchies: Britain, Canada, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Australia etc.
YMMV, but I disagree with “a list”.
1. Countries where the government disarms its citizens is fundamentally less free than otherwise. The extent of disarmament indicates the extent of degradation of liberty.
2. Republics have the people vote for their representatives who then vote on the laws (an indirect democracy). That some non-republics include “Republic” in their name doesn’t make them republics (e.g., “XXX Socialist Republic”, “People’s Republic of YYY”) — it merely makes them Orwellian.
pete in Midland | June 28, 2007 5:50 PM
What can I say. I was young and foolish at the time.
And what was really neat was seeing Arlo in concert after all those years and having him announce that he’d been thinking about it and since it had been 20 years since he had performed Alice’s Restaurant, there was a whole generation of kids who hadn’t seen him perform it. Whereupon he launched into the song.
Posted by: Gideon300 | June 28, 2007 8:18 PM
Oh. My. Gawd.
I’m really not alone!
Bill,
How about personal essays on how to cultivate VIRTUES?
Like essays on real-world application of biblical principles; i.e. how to better oneself through learning patience, love, honesty, hard work, fortitude, kindness…
Many people think essays like these aren’t necessary, and purely physical actions and skills must be taught, but I assert exactly the opposite.
Our country is in exactly the bind it is in right now because we have departed from the values, ethics and principles that made us a once great nation.
This is just a suggestion. Let us teach each other how to be better human beings. Let us teach each other biblical principles and real-world application of said principles. The only question becomes, who can teach them sufficiently? Where are the just and upright men?
A short about the issue of guns and freedom:
A freely armed citizenry is the absolute, only thing, that will ensure that any government, anywhere, will be kept on a leash which will keep it from enslaving said citizenry.
Gideon300 June 29, 2007.
Mark,
Taxes are a bad tyranny but not the worst. The worst is the fear of the knock on the door. In a free society criminals impose this fear upon themselves by their actions. In the society that is not free this fear is part of the atmosphere. Did someone hear an unguarded remark? Was I rude to a Party official. Does someone envy my position or want my job?
Knock…Knock…Knock.
Taxes can rob you of your money. Fear of the knock on the door can rob you of your soul.
Re: Posted by: citizen cain | June 29, 2007 3:05 PM
good call citizen cain. I concur with you.
teach the children well…
Beastie,
My first job out of college was with IRS. I had people in my office shaking in fear of what I might do to them. As bad as a knock on the door? Ask a delinquent taxpayer.
Mark,
“My first job out of college was with IRS.”
Glad to see you turned away from the Dark Side.
I still believe my point is valid. Were those people in your office “shaking in fear” not entitled to legal representation? Did you knock on their door in the middle of the night? Did you accuse them of vague ‘crimes against the State’ and detain them incommunicado for months or years? Did you smash the office of the their newspaper or revoke their broadcasting license?
I grant you that the current system of taxation in this country is grounds for (non-violent) revolt. I can write my elected representatives letters to this effect. I can send letters to the the editors of every major, minor or marginal publication on the continent venting my spleen on the subject. I can set up a tax revolt website, write a blog or six, stand on my front porch yelling: “Federal taxation is tyranny!” and sell bumper stickers that say “God Bless America and Damn the Federal Government”…and still not fear the knock on the door.
Dear Douglas,
Here is your horoscope
for Friday, June 29:
Are you feeling ever so slightly anxious about an offer you’ve passed up recently?
Actually, I’ve been metaphoricaly kicking myself all day for passing up a job offer. Now I know better, and that, or something better will come around again if I’m patient… (And this is kind of weird talking to you like this,..in front of the world and all, but if that’s the way you wanna dia-log what else can I do)
Well, put those worries to rest! The stars say you’re about to get a second chance.
Well blow me down!
I was just say’n how if I just took a chill pill and a deep breath that what I passed over would come around agin.
Co inky dink?
I don’t think so.
Make sure you pounce on it this time.
WORD!!!
citizen cain,
“Where are the just and upright men?”
They are all around you, Cain. They patrol your streets (and streets far more dangerous than yours). They wait for the alarm that will put them in harm’s way. They get up every day and do their jobs and take pride in doing so.
I believe the truly relevant question is: “Where are the Great Men?”
The answer I fear is: “They are long in their graves.”
The answer I hope for is: “They await the call.”
Johnny 100 Pesos-
First, the United States of America is neither a democracy nor a republic. The USA is a federal republic governed through representative democracy. The major distinction between democracy and representative democracy can be illustrated in one of the purest forms of the democratic process – the lynch mob.
Second, a republic could more accurately be described as a philosophy of government rather than a form of government. Many different forms of government can include republican ideals
Hail and well met, Sinsinatus.
The 17th amendment was an abomination when it was passed and has been a cancer ever since.
Sinsinatus,
I am thoroughly impressed. I had not thought that anyone alive today understood the destruction of the founders concept that was wrought by the 17th amendment.
USBeast,
Why am I not surprised that you were the first here to second Sinsinatus’ remarks.
Sinsinatus,
I am confused by your handle. Was not the original Roman Cincinatus?; or are the alphabets of various historical states open to interpertation,i.e.there is no “soft C in the germanic/norse tounge?
Just wonderin’ and keep up the outstanding work!!!
Svin
svinrod -
The quirky spelling is a result of (I am slightly embarrassed to say) a gaming handle. The story of Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus life inspired me to enlist in the army after high school and later involve myself in my community.
When I began playing a game online a few years ago my goal was to become one of the leaders of its community. I wanted to use the name to remind myself of how I wanted to lead and maybe pass on the inspiration through example and osmosis. Unfortunately, some 13 year old girl from New Jersey had gotten it first
.
So, instead of abandon the idea, I adapted it to my situation. It’s stupid to keep it that way in other fora, I know. But, it does tend to draw attention and questions and sometimes it even provides the opportunity to share one of the inspirations of my youth.
svinrod -
The quirky spelling is a result of (I am slightly embarrassed to say) a gaming handle. The story of Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus life inspired me to enlist in the army after high school and later involve myself in my community.
When I began playing a game online a few years ago my goal was to become one of the leaders of its community. I wanted to use the name to remind myself of how I wanted to lead and maybe pass on the inspiration through example and osmosis. Unfortunately, some 13 year old girl from New Jersey had gotten it first
.
So, instead of abandon the idea, I adapted it to my situation. It’s stupid to keep it that way in other fora, I know. But, it does tend to draw attention and questions and sometimes it even provides the opportunity to share one of the inspirations of my youth.
Even at my age, I have never developed an opinion on the 17th amendment.
Could some of you give me your reasoning about why it is destructive for senators to be chosen by popular vote rather than by that state’s legislature? Thank you.
Svin,
USBeast,
Why am I not surprised that you were the first here to second Sinsinatus’ remarks.
Got me guessin’, Svin. I was just checking in between rounds of Friday Night Fights and caught Sinsinatus telling the truth.
Sinsinatus,
Gaming is no embarresment. I was board gaming via Avalon Hill when die still had only six sides. Panzerblitz, Gettysburg, Luftwaffe, Origins of WWII, and of course Diplomacy were our high school pastimes(circa early 70′s). I think I even beta tested D&D with GG at one point. Aint hanging my hat on that one though. Surprisingly, I have never gotten into electronic gaming.
Thanks for clearing up the syn though.
Regards~Svin
USBeast,
Yeah, right, and I’m just here between NASCAR races!
Best~Svin
USBeast-
The 17th amendment was an abomination when it was passed and has been a cancer ever since.
I’ll back a repeal of the 17th — as long as the governor can still fill the gap with an appointment. Part of the problem was deadlocked legislatures. They didn’t have any heat on them to get off the dime.
Gideon300-
Could some of you give me your reasoning about why it is destructive for senators to be chosen by popular vote rather than by that state’s legislature?
Being elected by that one-more-removed indirection means that you, a Senator, can be more concerned about how laws affect your state. In essence, you’re more concerned how a law plays to your legislature rather than how it plays to your populace. The legislators are usually better informed. It doesn’t guarantee quality, or avoid corruption, anymore than other techniques, but it does raise focus on protecting the power of your legislature — and hence, it helps balance the power of the federal government. Hope that helps, G3.
Svin,
Are you questioning my veracity, sir?
I WAS watching Friday Night Fights. I DID check in between rounds and the main event was decided by a very decisive knockout.
Granted, I could not tell you the name of a single combatant but former Light-Heavyweight Champion Bob Foster was guest commentator.
Why are you wasting your time watching NASCAR?
Gideon300:
The Founding Fathers crafted a structure that balanced powers between three branches and at least two levels of government. In the latter case, they gave very limited powers exclusively to the national (not ‘federal’, which describes the layered structure itself) level, reserved certain powers exclusively to the states, and left a middle ground where both could act, but where the laws enacted by Congress would take precedence over those of the several states. They balanced this precedence by making the Senate like the Continental Congress, a body of representatives of the State Legislatures, each with equal voice, apportioned without regard to population. Now let’s look at how that works:
Here’s where the method of election matters. In the House of Representatives, and in the Senate after the implementation of the 17th Amendment, re-election depends solely upon public opinion (subject to manipulation by the news media) about the wisdom of the proposed law. But prior to A17, a Senator, or for that matter a House member considering a Senate candidacy in the future, must also consider his state legislature’s opinion of the bill.
Those state legislators won’t be swayed by the newspaper and TV stories about how noble the goal of this law is, because it’s their job to read and decide on legislation, and they know damn well what the Congress is doing to them. And those Senators and Representatives who want to be Senators know their state legislators; they’ve most likely served with them before making it to the Bigs themselves.
I don’t think that law would have made it out of committee in the Senate, if the 17th Amendment hadn’t changed the equation. It couldn’t even have been written in the House, without the 16th giving Congress the power to directly tax the people so as to have the money with which to bribe the states.
Guys,
Dang, have I been gone too long! It’s amazing what I miss in a day or so.
Unquiet,
YOU sir, may use made-up quotes attributed to me as much as you would like – so long as it closely resembles something I might actually say. And you have done just that. For your efforts, The Smoking section of The Chase Lounge has been expanded by an additional 5 miles.
Smoke ‘em if ya got em, boys! (I know I do.)
Just keep it legal. No wacky Tobacky here. I gots standards.
I’ll be in my office if anyone needs me.
Does anyone know why Sydney AUS (Aus in general) has been so gung-ho about wireless internet? And what drawbacks exist using wireless? I know it’s not secure and you shouldn’t do much more than check email/dink around, but at this point it’s my only option. Any input/advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
TI
Monster…to continue the literary mode, Delmore Schwartz once said, “In Dreams Begin Responsibilities”.
I find it very odd that a populist revolt generated by the 4th Estate was responsible for defeating a very bad immigration bill. The press, or at least talk radio, for once actually did its duty as a watchdog for the people. Hats off to Sean, Laura, Rush, et. al. for that one.
Nevertheless, populist movements are as close to the aforementioned “lynch mob” as a society can get. I’m uneasy about the precedent even in victory. Latin America swings on a pendulum from populism to tyranny and back again on a regular basis. Our victory bears scrutiny even as we celebrate. Populism is rarely a good model for self-rule, even if we did pull it off this time.
At one time I thought the Italians were being silly when they put a porn star in parliament. But then, maybe it was a subtle message: “We, the people, think you’re all a bunch of whores, so have one of your own.” A few years later a popular revolt by the electorate threw out of office nearly everyone in the Italian parliament. I can only wish for the same. In a time of crisis, we continue to muddle along . . .
Good thought-provoking stuff above about the Seventeenth. Thanks, you guys.
MWP, I didn’t see the uprising against the immigration bill as worrisome at all. Found it very reassuring that we can still speak loudly enough to our smug and self-centered representatives to get them to behave. Now if we can only vote enough of them out of office to reinforce the lesson…
Citizen Cain,
You asked Bill about personal essays on how to cultivate VIRTUES.
Ah, but there already is such a web site:
http://www.chivalrytoday.com/
There’s some meaty reading to be had there.
USBeast
Never would I question your veracity Sir. I was temporarily overawed by your ability to multi-task such diverse pursuits as pugilism and constituniol law. My Bad. As for NASCAR, it is a requirement for citizenship in Wesbygod that one speak the local Lingua Franca. To do so, one must learn the arcane terms, schedules, numbers and statistics that unfortunately pass for polite conversation in these parts. Failure to adopt such camoflague invariably leads to being dismissed as someone “From the next valley over”. So much like possum is “whats for dinner”, NASCAR is simply “whats on TV”.
Regards-Svin
“populist movements are as close to the aforementioned ‘lynch mob’ as a society can get” – Mark William Paules
I agree with you about the need for scrutiny as I agree with Jimbouie that I took reassurance from the outcome.
But when a huge bill is moved to the floor, avoiding the usual procedural safeguards, when a president and majorities in both houses seem willing to enact such a bill in the face of widespread public opposition, I start to worry more about tyranny and abuse of power than the mob.
I am glad to see it fail, even though I would have been content to see many of its provisions enacted, and there’s the rub. I like to think a more important message has been sent than how the public feels about immigration. If new immigration measures are needed because previous ones have been tried and failed, I’m prepared to make compromises to find a new solution. If new immigration measures are proposed because previous ones haven’t even been enforced, why should the public trust it’s government to enforce the new laws any more than the old?
If the public sent that message, and a few politicians actually heard it, that’s progress. Better to keep the politicians on a short leash until they show they can be trusted to… oh, hell, just keep the politicians on a short leash.
The 17th Amendment to the Constitution… The Pendulum Swings
Others have made (and more will make) comment on why the 17th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America has resulted in a net loss of freedom for the American people. What I will do here is try to explain why and how it was passed at all.
From the beginning, our nation had no set method for the appointment of senators. The number of senators apportioned to each of the member republics (states) was set forth in the constitution. The senators of each state were to be
Svin,
“Was not the original Roman Cincinatus?; or are the alphabets of various historical states open to interpertation,i.e.there is no ‘soft C’ in the germanic/norse tounge?”
Actually, the letter C in Latin represented the ‘hard C’ sound of the Greek Kappa, and in fact was written ‘<’ originally. The word ‘Caesar’ would have been pronounced pretty much like German ‘Kaiser’, the great orator (Marcus Tullius) Cicero’s name would be ‘Kicker Oh’, and Cincinnatus was ‘Kin, Kin at us’.
Later, Old English started converting the sound of c before e and i to more of a ‘ch’ sound like in ‘chip’, or ‘witch’. Italian was up to something very similar, while the French shifted it to ‘ts’, while using k to represent unambiguously the original sound of ‘c’.
Then Norman kings and noblemen brought the latter influence to England, pushing its evolution in a new direction. Only English and the Romance languages had these changes; pretty much every other language, not just the Germanic languages (excluding English, which due to the French influence is arguably the bastard child of the Germanic and Romance families), treat ‘c’ as we do ‘k’ (except in certain combinations with other letters).
Rickbert
The Comprehensive Immigration Bill that just failed (again) in the senate is a grand example of why the 17th Amendment is so disastrous for our country. Again, populism rears its ugly head in that support from widely disparate constituencies, with widely differing opinions on the issue, would be drawn to support bad legislation that in total would go against their principles. By paying off each of the
Sinsinatus,
I appreciate your insight and erudition on the 17th Amendment, but our problems are more than structural. The populace is simply unable to elect virtuous men and women to public office. The people are moved by advertising, not by a genuine understanding of a candidate’s character. And it’s not that I think power necessarily corrupts. But I most certainly believe that corruptible people are drawn to power.
I worked in Washington as a lowly courier for many years. I got to know a lot of people. One of which was working with the Secret Service(plain-clothes division). She told me that not a week went by when Secret Service wasn’t extricating some congressman from a compromising situation: a tryst gone bad, homosexual encounter turned to mugging, or a stripper leaping into the Tidal Basin from a congressional limo(ya’ll remember Wilbur Mills; I met him at A.A.). All of this rather routine. I could give you quite a list of the honorable and decent vs. the corrupt and phony, and it spands both sides of the aisle.
No, the problems are more than just structural. Even the best system won’t survive the tendency of corrupt people drawn to power. In Washington it’s known as Potomac fever. It can’t change until the electorate begins to look deeply into character over the facade afforded by advertising. It doesn’t matter what you call your system, because each and every one will in time fall to human folly.
Yet, we carry on as best we can . . .
Greetings all.
Wow!
The American History lesson in
civics was wonderful and enlightening. Thank you for the
refresher.
It is great good news to see we are indeed still muddling along
in our chosen path of governance.
God Bless America and us all.
“Were the states interests still represented at the federal level, how do you think the immigration debate would differ today?” – Sincinnatus
Well, my comments on the immigration bill were in reply to Mark William Paule’s post on the immigration bill, but what the heck, I’ll bite. As to the direct election of senators, my understanding is that the direct election of representatives in the house and the states’ legislative appointment of senators was just one more of the checks and balances of powers and interests.
As such, I’d expect that, absent the 17th amendment, the recent immigration bill would never have been seriously entertained in the senate. It seems there are enough states now that have grown weary of the federal approach (or lack) towards existing immigration law that senators responsive to state-wide interests may have put up more of a fight, earlier on.
And for myself, I’d be content seeing the 17th amendment repealed; it just might turn the public’s attention back to their state legislatures to keep them more on their toes. That is, if we’re allowed to assume the system would have continued to work as intended. But there are so many other ways the current system has shifted away from the original one, it may not be safe to assume senators appointed by state legislators would remain true to their original purpose. At least, no more than our Supreme Court, or popularly-elected House representatives when they are called upon to represent two-thirds of a million people instead of thirty thousand.
Overall, though, I’m more worried about a people who have grown so comfortable and content in their prosperity that only in extremity do they feel the need to rouse themselves to actually hold their representatives accountable. It may be a sign of success that we’ve had that luxury, but it’s no less a problem for all that.
I guess I’d take an imperfect constitution with a serious and well-informed citizenry over a perfect constitution with a lazy and indifferent citizenry, any day.
Maggie! What is today’s beverage?!? Not that I’m not glad to see you drop by just for comments on the History and Government seminar.
But a day without knowing your beverage of choice, why, it’s almost like a day without caffeine. I’ve gotten… accustomed to knowing.
“I guess I’d take an imperfect constitution with a serious and well-informed citizenry over a perfect constitution with a lazy and indifferent citizenry, any day.”
Precisely, Rickbert. The problem we face today is that government schools and the infotainment media conspire to give us the trifecta of an ill-informed, lazy, and indifferent citizenry, that can only be roused to action to demonize whoever the elite’s current whipping boy happens to be.
Repealing the 17th wouldn’t in and of itself fix the problem, but the mere act of moving the process of government closer to that citizenry would inspire some to become better informed and more engaged.
States that in turn push more power down to the county or municipal level would encourage this trend further.
Monster … great, east to understand, lesson on the 1th Amendment.
However supernatural and prescient we find the framers, I doubt that they could even fathom the speed of communication we have today. In the past newspaper editors and publishers could easily be abysmally one-sided, but could affect a very small segment of folks, since the speed of getting their words around was nonexistant (speed, that is). Pony Express and the railroads speeded up communication a bit, but the multifold increase in speed, and the breadth of it’s coverage would be unbelieveaqble to the gentlemen who stapled together the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
However, they did understand power. Just as lies, damned lies and outrageous lies got the 16th passed, so they did with the 17th. The framers were smart enough to realize that the power hungry type that would spend to get a job that paid thousands must be held in check … and that’s what the original concept did. Having an elected senate and congress is redundant – both parties supposedly answer to the electors (we wish!). There is no reasoning voices for the states that make up the UNION. My vote is assuredly on the side of repealing the 17th. I’d be most happy with a repeal of the 16th to follow, with a review of the 15th to exclude miscreants, the dead, the insane, and non-citizens. Heck, let’s review them all to see how maqny stand up to the dispassionate look back at the resulkts of their implementation. I’m starting to think that, just as our wonderous politicians do with tax repeal laws … all laws should self-expire after 10 years unless voted on again.
“all laws should self-expire after 10 years unless voted on again.” – pete in Midland
Sometimes it’s just scary to find out how Not Alone we are. I’ve pondered this very sort of thing myself on more than one occasion. How about:
Any law passed with a simple majority expires in, say, 5 years unless extended by a simple majority vote during the 12 months prior to said law’s expiration. Any law passed with a three-fifths majority lasts 10 years. Any law extended by a three-fifths majority is renewed for 10 years. Any law passed with three-fourths vote gets 25 years, same upon renewal.
Since this would require a Constitutional Amendment, you’d need sufficient public demand for it. Kind of like Steve Martin’s “How to make a million dollars without paying taxes”. First, make a million dollars…
Any real discussion on repealing the 16th Amendment should include consideration of Rep. John Linder’s H.R. 25 “The Fair Tax Plan”. He and radio nominally libertarian talkshow host Neal Boortz authored a book on it over a year ago. It is a reasoned and well thought out alternative to the modern confiscatory tax monster we endure today. It also gives a good history lesson on the origin of the incom tax, how it was passed, and how it has been abused. I highly recommend it. I have given away several copies myself.
While a sunset clause to any law sounds good on the face of it, the suggestion has its own problems. Some areas of our economy like the stock market need stability. Likewise, our financial markets (bonds, interest rates and the like) depend on the fact that regulations tend to stay fairly consistent over the long term. If new laws are passed every five or ten years as other laws succumb to sunset provisions, based largely on the whim of whoever controls Congress at the moment, the result will be chaos.
The real problem is the shear size of government and its tendency to reach for ever more power, whether it’s mandated by the electorate or not. We need more limits on what government may do. The less power we cede to the government, the fewer annoying laws we’ll have to endure. But we can’t afford chaos either in the form of short term law. Such a situation will cause more distortions in the market than we already have.
The duties of the federal government should be limited to national defense and a stable currency. Let the rest ride. Markets are self-correcting. Societal problems need to be addressed on a local level. But we are too far down the road to stop it now. Leviathan is loose, and we all will suffer. Only a true crisis can change things, and apparently knocking out a single American city by natural disaster (New Orleans) isn’t enough, nor is stabbing the heart out of the world’s financial center (9/11) sufficient for the task.
We just muddle along, muddle along, muddle along . . .
Mark, I know what you meant, but “the shear size of government” couldn’t help but bring a smile to my face. Just the sort of thing that needs to be done.
… depend on the fact that regulations tend to stay fairly consistent over the long term. – Mark
No argument from me, Mark. But … do you really think that necessary laws (and I’m not sure the stock market qualifies … idiotic government regulation like SOX have a negative value) will be sunsetted? The powermongers do allow laws they dislike to sunset … but imagine the hullabaloo if they let, say, the current unenforced immigration laws expire.
To date, imho, the best times have been when the congress and senate are gridlocked. The fact that no new laws are being enacted is usually a very, very good thing. Enact in haste, regret forever …
I’ll second Sinsinatus’ comments on the Fairtax book. I’m not completely sold on everything they present .. but I’m sold anyway because of the immediate dissolution of a humongous government department. After which I’d love to see them topple one by one until the federal government gets back to what it is constitutionally allowed to do … stop illegal immigration as part of guarding the borders, and do something about the barbarians at the gate …. including firing everyone in the old INS, and convicting the clowns that send visas to the 9/11ers … 6 months after 9/11 Doing away with that sorry excuse for an “education” (indoctrination!) department would certainly be a godsend … allowing the direction of education back to where it belongs – at the feet of those actually responsible to parents (nominally, at least).
A small government is a good thing … the larger it gets, the worse — to the point, as today, where it exists for itself and not for those who are taxed to death to support it.
Mark,
You’re right about us just muddling along. In the last hundred years we have muddled along through two world wars, a catastrophic world wide depression and no end of natural disasters.
We have muddled along through heart breaking assassinations, civil unrest, the energy crisis and Y2K. We even managed to muddle along and survive Disco.
It is my belief that our ability to muddle along is an indication of our strength as a nation and that the foundation of that strength is the Constitution.
You say: “Only a true crisis can change things…”. I ask: “For the better or for the worse?”
The greatest upheavals in history have occured in countries where power was based on personalities (kings, emperors, presidents for life, etc.). If the Czars hadn’t been such complete and utter anal vents we’d still be sending ambassadors to their court. If Louis and his aristocrats had worked to put bread in the baskets of the poor they would have kept their heads out of them. If the emperors of the Middle Kingdom of the Flowers Under the Sun hadn’t had their heads up their celestial backsides there would have been no Great Leap Forward or Cultural Revolution.
In the two centuries since the Constitution was ratified and made the law of the land, we have had one four year period of internal conflict. It excised a cancer that was eating at the heart of the Republic. It was a bloody business. It left scars that have yet to fade.
And still we muddled along.
In my (rarely) humble opinion we should be very proud of our ability to just muddle along. I hope we can muddle along until Hell freezes.
USBeast-
In the two centuries since the Constitution was ratified and made the law of the land, we have had one four year period of internal conflict.
But take a look at the Adams-Jefferson presidential campaigns and the vituperation during Adams’ term. This last term isn’t the first time the debate has been unduly coarse.
Quer.
“But take a look at the Adams-Jefferson presidential campaigns and the vituperation during Adams’ term. This last term isn’t the first time the debate has been unduly coarse.”
When I spoke of “internal conflict” I was referring to the Civil War (known in my neck of the woods as the “War of Northern Aggression”). That internal conflict was truly and “unduly coarse”.
And still, we managed to muddle along.
When I spoke of “internal conflict” I was referring to the Civil War
Ouch! Missed that. Good call.
Is muddling anything like blundering?
“Strasser: You give him credit for too much cleverness. My impression was that he’s just another blundering American.
Renault: But we mustn’t underestimate American blundering. I was with them when they ‘blundered’ into Berlin in 1918.” – Casablanca
And Mark William Paules, I hope my post ending with the Steve Martin bit conveyed that I was doing some ‘pie in the sky’ thinking there. I don’t expect the issue to form the core of the ’08 election campaigns. But your stability comment got me thinking.
I agree with the need for stability, but it also appears that the sunset provisions in the Income Tax reductions haven’t left people with such uncertain prospects for the future that economic growth has been seriously hampered. Most likely, folks think that Congress will be afraid to let them expire, and woe to either party that lets them (we can hope). But that’s also why I suggested increased terms for laws with supermajorities. Where stability is important, and there is sufficient agreement on what laws will provide it, supermajorities can provide it.
Of course, the largest practical objection is that there are just so damn many laws that would have to be renewed. On second thought…
Rickbert,
No matter what we suggest we forge a double-edged sword. Let’s take as just one example the interest deduction for home mortgage. Ideally, taxes should not be a consideration when a person contemplates buying a home. The decision should be completely market driven without the economic distortions caused by taxation. But then Congress decides (quite rightly) that a community of owners makes for a more stable, healthier, and more law-abiding neighborhood than a community of renters. They pass the deduction into law. People naturally take advantage of it. Do you think anyone who has bought a home in the last fifteen years wants to see the deduction taken away now? Personally, it’s only the benefit from the interest deduction that allowed me to buy my own home. Would abandoning the tax code in favor of a flat tax be to my benefit? I dunno. I’d have to run the numbers. Problem is, with a thousand vested interests in the tax code the way it is now, who’s going to change it? Not bloody likely. We’re stuck with it because we can’t turn back the clock. We’ve created a monster we now have to live with.
My wife can tell you, there is almost nothing I hate more than doing my taxes, its not PAYING my taxes per se, but the being made to feel like a potential criminal because you and some tax lawyer disagree on the meaning of “reasonable” or “significant” in claiming a deduction.
THe challenge with teh monster mindset is that at some point it comes to extremis. Jefferson many years before the WBTS/WONA called slvery “holding the wolf by the ears” – you want to let go, but not sure what will happen if you do.
The problem is that foresight is not written into the american DNA, innovative disaster recovery, however, is. The challenge for the rest of us is to figure out what institutions to put in place so that when the tax system DOES finally explode, and people finally DO wake up to how bad it is, that they have the tools to build a recovery from it.
Fixing the tax code is a fools errand, too many people are on the take for “targeted deductions.” Figuring out how to recover from it, and perhaps hastening the explosion to happen on our schedule(a bright lining to Bush’s spending record perhaps)
Again , mea culpa – monster as in “monster of our own making we have to live with” , not Monster as in “fellow ejectia poster”
Maggie! What is today’s beverage?!? Not that I’m not glad to see you drop by just for comments on the History and Government seminar.
But a day without knowing your beverage of choice, why, it’s almost like a day without caffeine. I’ve gotten… accustomed to knowing.
Posted by: Rickbert | June 30, 2007 11:21 AM
Good morning.
Yesterday’s brew was Herbal
w/raspberry (caffeine free)
Today’s is Green Tea w/
mandarin & orange.
With fresh winds blowing in
yesterday along with the
tornadic type clouds the
tea was refreshing. I love
that kind of weather, the negative charges are invigorating.
I am enthralled with the debate continuing in civics,
keep up the good work.
Yesterday’s brew was Herbal w/raspberry (caffeine free) Today’s is Green Tea w/mandarin & orange.
Hmmmm. Ahhhhh. Yes. Thanks.
Citizen Cain: How to cultivate virtues? Definitely sounds like Library material to me. Submit a proposal to Bill yet? ;D
A must read for all.
Michael Yon’s latest report.
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/bless-the-beasts-and-children.htm#comment-23887
The photos, and the story is graphic. This is one of the
most important stories he’s
reported IMHO.
I would like to see this fine
human being a member of Ejectia.
“While a sunset clause to any law sounds good on the face of it, the suggestion has its own problems.”
Rather than a sunset clause, I’ve got a different idea. There is a structural problem with the way laws are made. In order to get a law enacted, it requires:
1. a majority of each house and the President, or
2. two-thirds of each house without him.
We know this much from even the worst government school education.
But to keep a law in force only requires:
1. a majority of either house and the President, or
2. just over one third of each house without him.
So once a special interest has purchased enough votes to get legislation in its favor, its burden to keep it that way drops. Here’s what I propose in lieu of a sunset law:
That way, the political influence required to keep the law remains the same as what it took to be enacted.
I left out a clause. The Presidential order to repeal a law can be overriden by 2/3 of each house, for it is a delayed veto.
Ok, how do I get in on this?
Where is part 3???
When the time comes, I’d be happy to write some things on athletic training, and nutrition — dbl. major in biochem and genetics (I can also explain some basics in those fields.) — and competed in strongman and powerlifting for years (both for Texas A&M, and after I graduated.)
For those with an interest in home defense, one of the least expensive ways to go is a shotgun. The Mossberg 500 Persuader is a good choice to start, and it is currently on sale at Big-5 Sporting Goods through the 4th of July for $219 as “Mossberg ‘Security’ 12-gauge 20-inch 8-Shot Short Barrel Pump Shotgun”. It’s usually on sale one week during the month. It’s sale price was $239 in January and has been running $249 from February through June. Depending on where you live, you might be able to get a better price, so check around.
For those of you that participated in or listened in on some of the discussion of Robert Heinlein, I recommend this…
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2007/062007/06302007/296085/printer_friendly
Sinsinatus, thanks for the Heinlein link…
Sinsinatus, if there is a lull in posting here for a bit, Dougman may not be able to take the rap. A nice pot of Maggie’s Tea du Jour, and a Heinlein book… Sounds like the perfect respite after yard work.
Best stay away from Farnham’s Freehold, with its premise of a worldwide Caliphate of the Chosen Race, though. Too damned depressing.
Quer,
The name Mossberg opened a file.
I learned to shoot with a Mossberg bolt action 410. After some basic training as to loading and handling (“If I ever see you point this at another human being, I’m going to break it over your head. Do you understand?” “Yessir”), the Old Man took me out in the back yard, set a beer can on a fence post, backed me up about ten yards. and said “See if you can hit that.”
I was ten years old. If I was taller than that fence post it wasn’t by much. I took aim and squeezed (“You don’t ‘pull’ the trigger, you squeeze it. Work the bolt and try it again.”) the trigger.
That first round was the loudest noise that had ever gone off that close to my head. The recoil (“Hold it tight against your shoulder. This thing doesn’t have much of kick but you need to get used to the idea.”) I don’t remember. What I do remember is that beer can disappearing into the garden patch.
The Old Man made me do it again just to prove it was no fluke. I am proud to say it was no fluke.
What followed is going to seem like complete and utter madness to anyone with a lick of sense. In retrospect I would have to agree. At the time I was ten years old and the Old Man was…providing me with targets.
He marched off another five yards and veered off to my right.
“Okay, I’m going to throw this can that way. See if you can hit it in the air.”
It made sense to me.
He threw the can (they were steel back then and flew farther), I fired and the can intercepted three pellets of bird shot. Words cannot express my pride at that moment.
I hit eight out of twelve that day. There were actually thirteen cans thrown but, by the eighth or ninth the Old Man’s arm was getting tired and he launched one that did not get beyond what he regarded as his zone of safety.
“Don’t shoot!” he yelled as he hit the dirt.
To my credit, I recognized the danger at the same time he did.
To his credit he got up and threw three or four more cans.
I still have that shotgun.
brrrrrr, looks cold . . .
“Dougman may not be able to take the rap.” – The Monster
Ok, short of searching back issues of comment threads (some of which I now understand go back to a Yahoo! groups url, making me a true thread noob, I suppose) can anyone help me out here?
Why is Dougman the universal fall guy, scapegoat, and whipping boy for every typo, formatting error, bad link and Act of God around here? Is he the one in charge of keeping the servers running? I sense a good story here.
The other day I made a post that included several links but no harsh language, and it got ‘held’ for moderator review. I’m guessing it was round filed for the number of links by a spam filter. However, if I can blame Dougman, please advise.
Mornin’, Rickbert.
In answer to your questions, (a) way back in the beginning, when Bill first asked everyone what they were good at and what they could teach, Dougman actually volunteered to be the universal scapegoat for any and every thing that went wrong. And we’ve all taken him up on it, and gratefully… to the extent that Ejectia is slated to have a statue erected in his honor, in gratitude for his taking on that onus. So feel free to take advantage of Dougman’s self-crucifixion whenever you see fit.
And (b), yes, Bill’s spam filters have been working overtime, and unfortunately, have frequently “held” perfectly valid posts because of such things as multiple web links and whatnot (curse you, Dougman!). However, as the official site thread-cleaner-upper, I can tell you that I go through the Movable Type archives 2 to 3 times a day, and check any “held” postings for their suitability, typically “accepting” at least one unjustifiably “held” post every day. So have faith. If your post doesn’t show up right away as it should, just give me a little time to get home from work, and it should be “cleared.” If not, just get my attention, and we’ll straighten it out.
In the meantime, keep up the good work. I’ve enjoyed your contributions thus far.
GHS
Ok, then I personally blame Dougman because I missed or forgot his post volunteering for scapegoat/mascot duty. Curses, Dougman!
And btw, GHS, don’t worry about looking for my spam-filtered post as the flow of the thread has long since moved the topic downstream. Or is the topic now far upstream? Personally, I blame Dougman for my confusion regarding the proper imagery.
Say, I could get used to this…
I just wish I could tell the wife that it’s all the Dougmans fault.
So I saw both “Life Free or Die Hard” and “Ratatouile” over the weekend.
It’s been a LONG time since I’ve seen a movie that I would pay to see again. I walked out of the last Pirates movie.
Both of these films are that good. I intend to take the wife to see at least Ratatouile, and maybe the Die Hard as well.
The last time I felt this good about movies was the day I saw “Casablanca,” “Gone with the Wind” and “Laurence of Arabia” all on the big screen on the same day.
I enjoy getting into the movie marathon runs. I like to watch them all in one day. Movies such as Lonesome Dove, The Lord of the Rings, or the Matrix trilogy.
My brothers and I memorize certain movie lines from certain old movies, such as Treasure of the Sierra Madres, Spartacus, Northwest passage, One Eyed Jacks, etc.
We can carry on whole conversations understanding everything we are talking about, while any others around us unsuccessfully try to follow along in amazement. They have all finally figured out that only those as insane as we three can comprehend.
” I’m Spartacus.”
As a matter of fact, I hereby offer the prestigious prize of five attaboys to the first one to correctly identify these two immortal lines:
1. “If you’re the police, where are your badges?”
2. “I don’t have to show you any stinkin’ badges!”
Your submission must include the actor, name of the movie, and year it was released. Any errors will result in an awshit, which cancels ten attaboys.
1. Treasure of the Sierra Madres, 1948
Fred C. Dobbs/Humphrey Bogart
2. Treasure of the Sierra Madres, 1948
GoldHat: Alfonso Bedoya
Ron Gideon,
The movie was “Treasure of the Sierra Madre”
Year 1948
Conversation between Humphrey Bogart and Alfonso Bedoya
Regards~Svin
DYDM!
Svin
Reverend,
Usually I dont pick nits, but with 5 attaboys at stake, I cant help but point out that there is no S in the Sierra Madre movie title.
Svin the Slow
Usually I dont pick nits, but with 5 attaboys at stake, I cant help but point out that there is no S in the Sierra Madre movie title.
<chuckle>
qwer,
Yeah, that didnt come out right either. I give up. Going out to cut the grass now.
DDYDM!
Svin the Lawn Mower Man
I really hate that it takes me so long to pick up on some things. I’m particularly bad at seeing where some acronyms come from.
I won’t tell you how long it took me to catch on to DYDM…
Ripper – I’m glad it sounds like the newest of the Die Hard movies is better than the last couple. I think next weekend we’re going to see Ratatouie. Sounds like a real hoot.
Cut and pasted from the always reliable Wikipedia
In an episode of The Monkees from 1967, the band members play at being banditos. Michael (El Nesmito) wonders whether they should carry a club card or some badges. Micky (El Dolenzio) replies sneeringly with the line, “Badges? We don’t need no steeenking badges!”
In the 1974 Mel Brooks film Blazing Saddles, probably the most famous parody of the line is delivered. Hedley Lamarr (Harvey Korman) is interviewing a line of criminals in order to deputise them so that they can terrorize a town. The line is filled with stereotypical criminals, from bikers to robed Klansmen. A group of Mexicans dressed in sombreros and bandoleros step up to him. He speaks to them briefly, hires them and tries to hand them deputy badges: “Badges? We don’t need no stinking badges!”
In the “WKRP in Cincinnati” episode “Filthy Pictures” Dr. Johnny Fever is forced by his employer Arthur Carlson to give details of a past arrest, a small event Fever characterizes as an “altercation with 145 Mexican cops.” “I asked to see their badges,” Fever tells Carlson, “but the guy said ‘Badges?….We don’t need no stinking badges!’.”
In the Stephen King novel It, the character Richie Tozier repeatedly says “Batches? We don’t need no steenking batches!”
In the 1984 film The Brother From Another Planet, two “men in black” (alien bounty hunters) enter the bar where the alien was supposedly found. The bartender, suspicious of their intentions, demands to see some I.D. John Sayles, the director of the movie, delivers the line “Badges? What badges? We don’t have to show you any badges.”
In an episode of the television series The A-Team (c. 1985), Hannibal hatches a plan for the team to dress as cops, but Face observes that they don’t have any badges, to which Murdock responds “Badges? We don’t need no steeenking badges!”
In the 1989 Shelley Long film Troop Beverly Hills, when the troop’s achievement patches are taken away, Rosa, the maid of Long’s character (played by Shelley Morrison) says, “Patches? We don’t need no stinkin’ patches!”
In the 1989 “Weird Al” Yankovic film UHF, the host of Raul’s Wild Kingdom receives a shipment of badgers in error: “Badgers? Badgers?!? We don’t need no stinking BADGERS!!!”
In an episode of The Super Mario Brothers Super Show!, a Koopa Troopa (played by John Stocker) snaps “Caterers? We don’t need no stinking caterers!”
In the 1989 Jim Jarmusch film Mystery Train, a young Japanese tourist obsessed with Carl Perkins and American culture says, “Matches? We don’t need no stinking matches!” upon lighting a cigarette with a Zippo lighter.
The children’s animated company Nelvana has parodied the quote in such cartoons as Care Bears, Fievel’s American Tails and Babar.
A medallion is needed to enter the goblin realm in the seventh level of 1992 PC game Ultima Underworld. When the gatekeeper asks for it, one of the possible answers is “Medallion? I don’t need no stinking medallion!”.
In an episode of the sitcom 3rd Rock from the Sun (c. 1996), Harry (French Stewart) exclaims, “Bagels? We don’t need no stinking bagels!”
In 1996, a recording of the University of Kentucky Mega-Sax Quartet in mostly-unaccompanied tracks was released called We Don’t Need No Stinkin’ Rhythm Section (Seabreeze 4516).
In the 2000 vampire film “From Dusk Till Dawn 3: The Hangman’s Daughter”, set in turn-of-the century Mexico, when an American brush salesman tries to sell brushes to a rather rough looking Mexican vampire, he replies, “We don’t need no stinking brushes!”.
In the 2001 film Bubble Boy, When offered patches to fix his bike the character Slim says, “Patches? I could use some stinking patches.”
In an episode of Trial by Jury, Detective Lennie Briscoe responds to a woman who asks to see his and his partner’s badge with, “Badges? We don’t need no stinking badges.” When the woman opens the door and asks what he said, he replies “I said yes, yes, of course you need to see our badges.”
In the “Ghost in the Machine” episode of the cartoon Transformers, Scourge, possessed by Starscream’s ghost, is intercepted by a couple of other Decepticons, who ask him for an entry pass. Starscream’s ghost materialises and says “Passes? Passes? I don’t have to show you no stinking passes!”.
In Eldest, the second book of the Inheritance series by Christopher Paolini, Loring the cobbler says “Barges? We don’t want no stinking barges!”
On the X-Men TV Show Archangel (Stephen Ouimette) exclaims “Cities? They don’t need no stinking cities!”
In the 1985 Anthony Edwards film Gotcha! when Jonathan’s friend “Carlos”, along with his friends ‘surrounded’ the FBI agents who then proceeded to flash their badges, “Carlos” retorted “Badges…we don’t need no stinking badges”
In an episode of The Simpsons in which Homer Simpson becomes a food critic, Marge Simpson warns him that the typewriter he is using has a faulty E key. Homer replies, “We don’t need no stinkin’ E!”
In an episode of the 1990s Nickelodeon show, Salute Your Shorts, Appropriately enough, in the episode titled “The treasure of SARAH MADRE, Z.Z. finds a ‘Junior Park Ranger’s Badge’ while the kids are digging for treasure. She shows it to Michael, who replies “Badges? We don’t need no stinking badges!”
UK band The Flaming Stars use samples of this dialogue on the song “Bandit Country,” from the album Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia
Podcasting has adopted the variation, “Transmitters? We don’t need no stinkin’ transmitters!” as one of its slogans. It’s currently used in several podcasts, most notably Adam Curry’s Daily Source Code and was recorded by Craig Patchett from the Godcast Network.
In a fourth-season episode of Farscape, when the Scarran emperor asks John Crichton how he obtained the codes to a secret chamber, Crichton affects a Mexican accent and responds, “Codes? We didn’t need no stinkin’ codes!”
In an episode of The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius, the main characters are being chased by self-appointed police officers, and when one of the characters asks to see their badges, the “officers” shoot at them wildly. The character Sheen remarks, “I don’t think they need no stinking badges.”
The September 11, 2003 edition of the online comic strip Real Life, the character Greg shouts “We don’t need no stinking badgers!” as an intentionally bad pun after viewing the infamous Badger Badger Badger Flash animation. [1]
In the webcomic The Adventures of Dr. McNinja, the leader of a group of “raptor banditos”" cries “Latches? Latches? We don’t need no stinking latches!”
In 2 Skinnee J’s song “The Good The Bad and The Skinnee” the line “Badges, We don’t need no stinkin’ badges.” is repeated several times.
In the trading card game “Magic: the Gathering,” “We Don’t Need No Stinking Merfolk” has been named as a card considered for design.
In a cartoon lampooning the George W. Bush administration’s warrantless surveillance policy Dick Cheney snarls “We Don’t Need No Stinking Warrants!”
In the Inspector Rebus novel Black and Blue, by Ian Rankin, a character orders an Indian takeaway and says ‘Bhajis? we don’t need no steenking bhajis’
In an episode of Digimon Adventure, Kari Kamiya says, “Crests? We don’t need no stinking crests!”
In the Minutemen song “Badges” on the Post-Mersh Vol. 3 and Ballot Result albums, the entire lyrics consist of “Badges, We don’t need no badges, we don’t need no stinkin’ badges!”.
The Julian Cope song Julian H Cope, from his album Jehovakill, contains the line “Badges? We don’t need no stinking badges!”.
In John Varley’s science fiction Red Lightning (2006)
In the movie Holes, Mr. Sir is tasting the ‘food’ and the cook says it needs onions. Mr. Sir replies “We don’t need no stinkin’ onions.” (2003)
In an episode of Perfect Strangers (TV series) titled ‘Tooth or Consequences’, cousins Balki and Larry are overexposed to Nitrous Oxide and Larry exclaims “We don’t need no stinking dentist!” as he hatches a plan to fix his own missing filling.
Svin, not to worry. We know you meant “second S”. (Dougman’s a crafty one.)
USBeast — a great story. Hope your own kids behave as well as you did.
Okay,…
I have realized two things, one leading to the other:
1) I just sat here and read that ENTIRE ‘badges’ wiki-paste.
2) We need another essay.
- MuscleDaddy
MD, you are SOOOOOO right.
But SHTF day is Wednesday, so we got that going for us.
(12 attaboys to the one that can figure out the oblique movie allusion in the above line)
Caddyshack?
Yes, Caddyshack.
I AM impressed.
How about “What’sa behind us does not matter!”
“We need another essay.” – MuscleDaddy
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
And Gandalf said: “Many folk like to know beforehand what is to be set on the table; but those who have laboured to prepare the feast like to keep their secret; for wonder makes the words of praise louder.” – J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Ripper,
That one’s easy – it’s the First Rule of Italian Driving – Cannonball Run.
- MuscleDaddy
I think it was “whatsa behind is, is not important” Raoul Julia as he rips off the rear view mirror
So , what does Jack Burton say?
MD – right line, wrong movie. Try again.
“Give me your best shot. I can take it”
Ripper,
Gumball Rally.
Give the Beast a Cupie Doll!
Now, for double point: in the movie Casablanca, who signed the letters of transit?
Hint: Ugarte (Peter Lorre) says they “cannot be rescinded, not even questioned!”
Give the Beast a Cupie Doll!
Now, for double points: in the movie Casablanca, who signed the letters of transit?
Hint: Ugarte (Peter Lorre) says they “cannot be rescinded, not even questioned!”
(No Googling allowed)
GreatHairySilverback,
Thanks for the Dougman history lesson.
Years ago, long before Al Gore invented the internet, I volunteered to take the blame for everything that went wrong on Tuesdays. The world took little note of this thus sparing me a flood of hate-mail and possible prosecution after 9/11.
My goal at the time was to encourage others to follow my lead and shoulder some of the responsibility for the evil in this world if only for a limited amount of time. I picked Tuesdays because there was no way I was going to accept blame for Mondays and I wanted my weekends free.
In the interest of fairness and to show my appreciation for the hard work and skull sweat that is going into the founding of Ejectia, I am hereby offering to stand in for Dougman on Tuesdays from 12:00:01 AM to 12:00 PM CST.
I’m sure he’d appreciate a day off.
No statues please. I wouldn’t want to frighten the children.
Ripper,
Louis Renault.
And “General DeGaulle himself”
Wikipedia might be helpfull but it AIN’T all that. 1985 “Gotcha” starring Anthony Edwards, Linda Fiorentino, and Jsu Garcia. Jsu (as Manol re the FBI) “Badges? We don’t need no stinkin Badges”
Just for completeness sake. BTW, first ever paintball movie I think.
Another movie line. The actor’s name is not necessary, only the name of the movie.
“They played ball—-with their heads.”
General DeGaulle is correct – for partial credit.
Ugarte is wrong. When Rick takes the papers from Sam’s piano and looks at them, the signature is visible. Who’s signature is on the papers?
I think Gotcha may have also been the LAST paintball movie. At least the last one filmed at UCLA.
Immigration: Some things change when the perspective gets personal.
I now know what my Pennsylvania relatives mean when they say, “go pound sand.” Building a patio of brick over packed sand is more monotonous than knitting chain mail. I realized yesterday that I needed to hire some day labor. So off I went to Agua Fria Park to recruit some help.
Sunday afternoon isn’t exactly prime recruitment time, but a pickup truck driving at slow speed through the barrio tends to draw some interest, and I’m not talking about a drug deal. I was approached by Carlos and David. Dealing for labor tends to be a fairly concise negotiation. What, where, and how much? We “Anglos” are preferred bosses: humane, truthful, and timely when it comes to cash. I arranged the pick-up for 0600 the next day and put down $20 as proof of my intentions. Hopefully I would be an hour ahead of the other contractors with a pre-arranged crew. More important was getting effiency out of my manpower in the early morning hours before the sun cooked us all. The worst I could get for my twenty was a no show.
I got a no show. But I did find Antonio. Better one good man than two slackers, I guess. Cien dollares por dia is a better deal than work by the hour. The offer draws those willing to put in a hard day for a C-note. And twenty bucks one way or another means nothing to me when I have 20K invested in the job. I found my man.
Over my patio I explained in my clipped Spanish the process and the rationale. Antonio understood. There probably isn’t anything in sand, gravel, earth, brick, flagstone, adobe or wood that he hasn’t put his hands on. And he was off like a demon. I actually had to stop him for the customary early coffee at 0700.
There’s a method to my technique. I learned it back east when I was running landscape crews. Any tyrannt can flog a crew of laborers. His method will get him a half day of work from each of his people. It’s what you get between 1300 and 1530 that will make or break the day. I needed Antonio on the job to the end.
Some people think immigrants should learn English as soon as possible. Aye, I understand the arguments. But in this neck of the woods, commmunication is a patois of English, Mexican, Native American, and archaic Spanish. The fourth contribution is a remnant language soon to die (sadly) left over from the second conquest of the Rio Grande Valley circa 1690. If modern English is a blend of Old Anglo-Saxon(Beowulf) and Norman French who am I to complain about the state of the local language?
Antonio and I began to converse, in bits and fragments, punctuated by hand signals, and dotted with stray associations I’m not sure either of us understood. I managed to ascertain his life’s story. He left his small town in Mexico on a temporary visa to visit the United States a few months ago. He has distant relatives here. His relatives must be very distant because he claims it’s two hours by horseback to get to his village from the nearest road.
Familia?
Si
Espousa?
Well, yes, sort of. Apparently she hit him in the face with a board and broke all his front teeth. He’s trying to earn enough to get his mouth fixed before returning to Mexico.
Ninos?
En todos muerte.
Eww, sorry.
No problema, Senor.
Well, you just have to like a guy who won’t quit. He works like a demon in the hot sun. He won’t quit unless I call him off for a ice tea break. When the clouds finally gave us a break, he crossed himself and gave thanks to Jesus. When I provided lunch, he did the same. When the sun was cooking, he wouldn’t allow me to work in the heat. I worked along side him, but I had the shade. He voluntarily took the sun. And he worked all day without complaint.
Which brings me to my point in all this. There’s got to be a place for people like Antonio in our country. I’m all for border security, but we need to separate the goats from the sheep. I know it’s a big job. Maybe too big. And I don’t consider hiring a day laborer to be an act of treason. I think it’s the purest form of capitalism: this for that, period! And Mexicans are true adherents to Judeo-Christian principles. At least I don’t have to recruit my help from a pool that includes Mustafa and Abdul.
I will tell you, dear reader, that when the debate gets personal, circumstances have a way of re-arranging one’s state of mind. I’m having Antonio back tomorrow for another day. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m “feeling” right.
~Paules
. Treasure of the Sierra Madres, 1948
Fred C. Dobbs/Humphrey Bogart
2. Treasure of the Sierra Madres, 1948
GoldHat: Alfonso Bedoya
Posted by: Reverend | July 2, 2007 9:48 AM
The movie was “Treasure of the Sierra Madre”
Year 1948
Conversation between Humphrey Bogart and Alfonso Bedoya
Regards~Svin
Posted by: svinrod | July 2, 2007 9:50 AM
Reverend and Svinrod. You are both worthy warriors.
Svinrod, you were wise enough to pick up on the blunder of the reverend. You answered completely and to the point. However reverends was very thorough, in that, not only did he name the actors, but also the names of the character each played.
Since I am feeling generous, I will credit the extra effort to reverend allowing it to offset his near critical error. I hereby award 5 attaboys to each of you. You can call off the duel.
I go alurking.
Ripper,
This is embarrassing. I thought I knew every frame of Casablanca by heart.
I’m going to say Admiral Darlan.
Newbie here. Just wanted to say hello. Long time lurker and Whittle essay lover.
I submitted a proposal to the library – I’m an engineer in the defense industry with design and manufacturing experience in rocket motors, missiles, and medium and large caliber ammunition. I also have interests ranging from military history and hardware and automotive technology and hybrid vehicle design to guns, shooting, and reloading.
Hopefully, I can contribute something useful.
Mark Paules,
A man whom I consider very wise once told me ” If you are not part of the solution, You are part of the problem.”
Ron Gideon,
You are wise as Solomon!
USBeast,
I thought I had memorized every frame as well(after all, “As Time Goes By” was my wedding song.) Darlan was in North Africa(IIRC)commanding the Vichy fleet, but other possibilities may be Marshall Petain(or was it Foch). Ich vergessen.
Auf Wieder Sehen.
Svin
MWP, you pointed out the huge advantage we have over Europe. I want Antonio to learn English, but at least he shares a lot of our culture’s values without knowing the language.
Contrary to the straw man pro-amnesty forces insist on erecting, most of the people opposed to illegal immigration are not at all opposed to Mexicans who want to “sign the guest book on the way in” as Antonio did.
I personally want it to be a lot easier to come to the US legally, and a whole hell of a lot tougher to do it illegally. And if someone is here illegally, and cops catch him breaking some law or other, then they should put him on ICE.
The Monster | July 2, 2007 7:03 PM
Hear! Hear!
Rocketguy,
Hail and well met.
Don’t feel bad, there’s probably less than 1000 people in the country that knows DeGaul. And you can’t read the signature on a DVD, the resolution isn’t high enough – I had to look at a good 35 mm print with a microscope to see it.
Marshal P
Stop rhyming and I mean it.
Svin,
I’d be shocked to my corn plasters if it was Foch. Petain, maybe but I doubt it.
The only other possibility I can see would be General Juin.
Yo, Rocketguy, any ideas?
Ripper,
Petain makes more sense than de Gaulle. Thanks for the trivia tip.
“I had to look at a good 35 mm print with a microscope to see it.”
It’s nice to know that there’s someone out there with your kind of dedication looking out for the rest of us.
Almost everyone today thinks it was Hitler.
From a few hints and some guesses, when they were on the set nobody knew who Petain was. They figured if they didn’t know, the audience wouldn’t either. So they threw in the only French name they thought the audience would recognize.
Gideon300,
Anybody want a peanut?
Gideon?
“They played ball—-with their heads” – I don’t think it was TBP?? Or is that on to a different triviality?
Ripper,
“They figured if they didn’t know, the audience wouldn’t either.”
The more Hollywood (and its audience) changes, the more it stays the same…dammit.
More Casablanca trivia.
Most people know it was based on an unproduced stage play, “Everybody Comes to Ricks.” They know the rumor (untrue) that at one point Ronald Reagan and Ann Sheridan were set for the lead roles. Some might know that it was made into a series in 1983 with David Soul, Scatman Crothers, Ray Liotta and Hector Elizondo (it only lasted 3 episodes.)
But most people don’t know that it was remade under a different title, with different character names. Anyone know the name of the remake?
Ripper,
I’m in Keyser, West Virginia – right across the border from the People’s Republic of Maryland.
USBeast,
Not a clue. Gotta’ confess – I’ve never seen Casablanca.
Ripper Sez:
“Give me your best shot, I can take it”
You mean:
“When the lightning’s flashin’ and the thunder’s rollin’ and the rain’s comin’ down in sheets as thick as lead – Ol’ Jack Burton looks that storm right in the eye and says ‘Gimme your best shot, I can take it.’ ”
C’mon, man – setup is everything.
…and the Chinese got a lotta Hells.
- MuscleDaddy
Rocketguy,
Keyser!?!
I live in Romney WV and went to college at Frostburg. Also into shooting, military history and worked for Volvo for 20 years(stop laughing). Know of any local shooting facilities around here?
Svin
Ok – try this one for 5 Golden Attaboys:
(This question being related to a Thanksgiving Day tradition in our house, Monopticus is pre-emptively disqualified from answering)
Who’s the baddest?
Who’s the meanest?
Who’s the prettiest?
Who’s the baddest Mo-Fo low down around this town!!
- MuscleDaddy
(and no – that is not, technically, the correct answer.)
Posted by: The Monster | July 2, 2007 7:03 PM
“I personally want it to be a lot easier to come to the US legally, and a whole hell of a lot tougher to do it illegally. And if someone is here illegally, and cops catch him breaking some law or other, then they should put him on ICE.”
As an individual who spends much time south of the border, what the Monster says makes a lot of sense. The immigration laws need to be revised such that those that are willing to take the risk of moving to a new land and a new culture and assimilate as best they can, would be able to do it.
OTOH, I don’t think that the US should be a dumping ground for “the great unwashed” of corrupt countries so that the corrupt officials can continue to ignore the plight and welfare of their constituents and continue to rob their countries blind.
From the Rio Grande (Rio Bravo) to Tierra del Fuego are sufficient resources for the countries that exist there to give a decent standard of living to their constituents. The problem is the endemic corruption from the top on down to the ordinary citizen.
MuscleDaddy, I’m gonna go with Shaft, not because I know, but because it was the name that first popped into my head. Some days ya just get lucky.
Rocketguy,
You’ve…never…seen…Casablanca??!!
I envy you. You’ll have the pleasure of seeing it for the first time.
There are only two movies I will make an effort to watch whenever they’re run. Casablanca is one, the other is Stagecoach.
Nope.
MD,
“Who’s the baddest Mo-Fo low down around this town!!”
You can refer to none other than Sho’Nuff, the Shogun of Harlem (Barry Gordy’s Last Dragon)
“Who’s the master?”
svinrod | July 3, 2007 7:41 AM
“worked for Volvo for 20 years”
Would that be VTNA?
There’s got to be a place for people like Antonio in our country.
Definitely.
And I don’t consider hiring a day laborer to be an act of treason.
Never have, but it’s one way to resolve the damaging minimum-wage laws — although a C-note is well over that.
And Mexicans are true adherents to Judeo-Christian principles.
Most are, indeed. But there are some very good muslims as well — just keeping their heads down.
—-
Not that it’s a litmus test, but I think RAH would approve.
C’mon! Someone’s got to know the Camp/SciFi remake of Casablanca, with a silicone blond in the Bogart part!
“They played ball—-with their heads” – I don’t think it was TBP?? Or is that on to a different triviality?
Posted by: Ripper
It is indeed a line from an old movie.
Give me your best shot, I can take it”
You mean:
“When the lightning’s flashin’ and the thunder’s rollin’ and the rain’s comin’ down in sheets as thick as lead – Ol’ Jack Burton looks that storm right in the eye and says ‘Gimme your best shot, I can take it.’ ”
Posted by: MuscleDaddy
That’s gotta be Lieutenant Dan on Forrest Gump.
Ripper:
Are you thinking of “Barb Wire” with Pamela Anderson?
Don,
No, not VTNA, unfortunately. Worked in service/management for a large dealer in Bethesda Md. I have seen a VTNA facility near my place in Romney, but when I tried to connect through our regional Volvo guys they just stared blankly and said things like “Trucks?, Volvo makes Trucks?”
Empty Suits. Waddya gonna do?
Are you connected with VTNA in any way?
Svin
C’mon! Someone’s got to know the Camp/SciFi remake of Casablanca, with a silicone blond in the Bogart part!
It’d've been funnier if her first name had been “Concertina”.
Monster,
Five Golden Attaboys to the Man with the Answer!
Gideon,
Nope! Kurt Russel played Ol’ Jack Burton in “Big Trouble In Little China”
========================================
Here’s another one for the bonus round:
“All that hate’s gonna burn you up, kid.”
“It keeps me warm.”
- MuscleDaddy
(Standard Disclaimer: Monopticus is disqualified from participating in MuscleDaddy Movie Madness)
Darn, after Muscledaddy put more context to it, I knew the Big Trouble in Little China quote, but I didn’t get here in time. Oh, well.
So far, that’s the only one I’ve gotten. I’m defnitely not a movie trivia person.
“It keeps me warm.”
C. Thomas plays some weird roles.
Quer,
I refuse to watch any sort of remake of Casablanca, but, just out of curiosity, did this atrocity run on Mystery Science Theater 3000?
Doug is correct, it is the Immortal “Barb Wire.”
And none of the principals, including the producers, director, or Ms. Anderson herself, recognized was Casablanca. The only one in the cast that did was Steve Railsback, and he didn’t spill it.
Barb Wire was made by Grammercy films, which also made the MST3000 movie. They didn’t have enough money to promote both, so they advertised BW and let MST3000 die.
MD: WOLVERINES!!!!!
Ah know we not the feast to come
And this we bear in silence (thank you Mr. Tolkien)
But should we miss first curtain rising
Hours wasted would be trying!
That’s supposed to mean – anybody know what time “our” fireworks start?
And “if” anyone knows the hour, would that be East coast, Central, West coast time?
Cheers everyone! There has been some tremendous reading while we waited.
Posted by: svinrod | July 3, 2007 11:12 AM
“Are you connected with VTNA in any way?”
You might say that…..(wg)
I work for VPNA, the business area that handles After-market Parts. I’m a Senior Parts Planner.
“What’s a Parts Planner?” you ask. (You did ask, didn’t you?) Well the short answer is that I look at the parts coming out of Engineering and decide how we are going to offer that part (or if we’re going to offer it at all) as a service part. Fortunately I only look at a small portion of them. I’ve got engine “hang on” parts (alternator, starter, cooling package, etc.) and suspension parts. Gets to be interesting sometimes since I’ve got a BS in Mechanical Engineering and a *lot* more experience then most of our engineers these days….
And I know what you mean about the “Volvo makes trucks?” thing. I was trying to explain to some of our over seas coworkers about how Volvo was viewed in the US. I mentioned “foreign”, “boxy”, “safe” and “cars”. They didn’t believe me. When we went to dinner that night the waitress wanted to know who we worked for. One of us said “Volvo”. Her response: “Oh I love those cars!”. I just smiled.
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
“That’s supposed to mean – anybody know what time “our” fireworks start?
And “if” anyone knows the hour, would that be East coast, Central, West coast time?”
I have suggested, and Bill has reacted favorably, that Ejectia belongs to no Terrestrial time zone: It is on Coordinated Universal Time (often incorrectly referred to as Greenwich Mean Time; the two are only approximately the same, and not British time, which shifts forward in the spring and back in the fall).
It is therefore 01:17 in Ejectia as I write, and since the printing presses for the Gazette have yet to be delivered (Damn you, Dougman!), I present for your enjoyment, the first installment of the daily feature requested by Rickbert:
Today in History: July 4
1997: Pathfinder lands on Mars.
1976: Israeli commando raid on Palestinian terrorists holding an Air France jet at the Entebbe, Uganda airport. They rescued all of the passengers and crew.
1939: Lou Gehrig retires from baseball.
1776: The Continental Congress unanimously approves a Declaration of Independence from Great Britain, setting forth the principles upon which a just government is founded.
Don,
Thanks for that great story. I know it was “inside baseball” for most people here, but it is so true. My introduction to the world of trucks was due to my Grandfather and Father. They ownede a huge collection of sand and gravel mines. Guess how they delivered their product? Can you say MAC, White, K-Wop, Peterbuilt, GMC, etc… My first summer job was on a CAT D-6 pushing dirt off of the top of the sand.I got my drivers license a year later and started chasing broken down trucks around the Baltimore beltway. Somehow, that experience got me stuck in the automotive business and I cant say it wasnt profitable. Ask me about designing the the V70XC someday.
Best regards~Svin the Sandman.
svin | July 3, 2007 6:46 PM
Svin,
Interesting. My Dad was a Reo truck dealer before he founded his own trailer company. I’ve been around this all my life as well. Learned to drive, at age 5, on a Mack LJ that Daddy had “modified”. He cut the cab off the truck, welded a radiator guard off a Cat onto the front of the frame and formed up and poured a block of concrete over the rear axle for traction. After he got through clearing the lot where the house was built (he’d butt the stump with the guard until the stump started to give; then turn the truck around, hook a log chain to the stump and snatch it until he pulled it out of the ground), he used the truck to move trailers around the yard and pull a road grader.
br,
Don
Don,
Dang, your Dad should meet mine. He is still going strong at 76 years. He was an Air Force Master Seargent before he joined his Dad in the Sand Biz. He was Crew Chief for Chappy James and alot of other Korean War aces. He could make anything out of anything. I wish you could see the double train set he assembled in one night (Christmas Eve) for myself and my older brother. Most of the controls were originally in the cockpit of a T-33.
I had the greatest childhood in the known universe. Unfortunately, I did not realize that until I was much older.
Regards~Svin
Svin, let me ask you about designing the V70XC.
Actually, I don’t want the details. My 78 year old mother is about to buy one, because it’s about the only station wagon she can find. Bottom line – good choice?
Ripper,
That’s a tough one. The vaunted Volvo safety systems are the best in the world. There are minor and not so minor problems with several subsystems. Light bulbs(headlight and taillight)burn out with astonishing frequency, which triggers a warning light on the dash. The fuel vapor recovery system leaks vacuum causing the check engine light to come on constantly. The throttle control module was delicate and would often render the car undrivable. I have heard that new models use a different design, but time will tell. In city driving, brake pads require replacement every 20 to 35,000 miles max(it is a tank of a car!)Gas milage will be much less than what is listed on the sticker. Roadside assistance is not the greatest. If she does purchase a new one, it is vital that she also purchase a Volvo extended warranty if she will be keeping it for more than 4 years. Apart from that, it is a great car.
Svin
Today in History: July 4
1826: Thomas Jefferson and John Adams die within hours of each other.
Rickbert, I didn’t think the near-simultaneous deaths of Jefferson and Adams was a milestone for the progress of civilization. A curiousity, that both men would live exactly 50 years to the day from the date of the Declaration, but not really a milestone.
Did I misunderstand your suggestion?
Rickbert, Monster:
I don’t list piety as one of my virtues, but a “coincidence” of this sort is almost enough to make me believe in Providence.
MWP,
It does seem as though Someone were making a point.
OTOH, I’ve known enough situations where people died on their birthdays, to recognize the phenomenon of someone trying to hold on to get to that anniversary, after which they have nothing further to hold onto.
I hadn’t really thought of the story as a milestone exacly, but it does hold a sort of significance for me. So it was a ‘meaningful’ date, if that would qualify.
Jefferson and Adams were both instrumental in America’s Independence, were rivals for the presidency after Washington, fought eath other vigorously over politics and ended their days having engaged in years of some of the most famous correspondence in U.S. History.
While my mind’s eye pictures both men as portrayed in the film version of the play “1776″, the significance comes from their ability to reconcile after years of adversity in establishing the republic they both worked so closely together to help bring about.
The cause of Civilization could do worse.
God Bless The United States Of
America on this July 04,2007.
Okay, where’s the fireworks for
Ejectia?
…from their ability to reconcile after years of adversity…
The nub of the gist – well put good Rickbert.
USB-
did this atrocity run on Mystery Science Theater 3000?
If it did, I never saw it there.
Happy Birthday to “the last best hope of earth.”
Ripper | July 3, 2007 11:12 PM
Email me at some_guy_named_don@yahoo.com
Svin:
*I’d* like to hear about designing the V70XC.
And yeah, I think our Dads were a lot alike. I lost mine in 2003 at 82 years old. Up until he started getting sick (kidney cancer) he could still work me into the ground. And his father was the same way. Granddaddy built a hay barn when he was 84. Why? Because he said he needed one. Drove Daddy crazy the summer it was being built because Granddaddy persisted in climbing up into the rafters to “show these young guys the right way to do it!”
Ditto one of my college buddies whose Dad ran a gravel hauling service out of the North Georgia mountains. Bud and I have a lot of the same experiences growing up.
Don
Svin -
Small world. Since you’re local, I’m sure you know who I work for.
When I moved here 6 yrs ago, I was shocked at the lack of public shooting facilities. As far as I know, you either have to wait for an opening in the club out east of Cumberland or drive down to the public range in Maysville – one is ~ 45 minutes from me and the other is ~ 30 min. If you’ve never been to Maysville, they have a pretty decent outdoor range (especially since it’s free) and I’m always looking for an excuse to go burn some ammo.
USBeast -
I’m 30 and not a big classic movie fan – my wife is disgusted that I have no interest in sitting through Gone With the Wind with her. Keeping up with the job, a fixer-upper house and my 3 year old and 14 month old means I don’t do much TV or movie watching….
Today in History, July 5
1998: Japan launches the Nozomi (Hope) Mars probe.
1996: Dolly the Sheep, the first cloned mammal, is born.
1947: Larry Doby’s contract with the Cleveland Indians makes him the first black player in the American League.
1687: Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica published by Issac Newton.
(Yesterday)
Mark: Which brings me to my point in all this. There’s got to be a place for people like Antonio in our country. I’m all for border security, but we need to separate the goats from the sheep. I know it’s a big job. Maybe too big. And I don’t consider hiring a day laborer to be an act of treason. I think it’s the purest form of capitalism: this for that, period! And Mexicans are true adherents to Judeo-Christian principles. At least I don’t have to recruit my help from a pool that includes Mustafa and Abdul.
Of course there is. And there should always be. However, it must start by being legal and legitimatre in the first place. LEGAL immigrants, or even “guest workers” such as myself are required to prove that we are bringing in talents not currently available or in short supply. We have to guarantee that we won;t be a burden on the taxpayer. We can’t bring in unlimited family (my little brother would dearly love to be able to work in the US).
My feeling is that we must be judicious in whom is allowed to stay in this country, and being willing to knowingly break a law just to get here is not a proud accomplishment in my eyes.
Similar to your story, my wife, having lived most of her life in the south-of-Houston area of Texas, would do the same – cruise the lumber yards and mall parking lots, and offer day-work. In almost every case in the past 30 years, she’d get a black day laborer for heavy lifting/moving that she felt unable to do. Don’t know why I didn’t think of that when I packed her stuff and moved her north … sure woulda saved my back, LOL. I’m not sure “Jamal” would have outworked “Antonio” … but he was a citizen who was willing to do the work Americans WILL do …
Rocketguy,
Small world. Since you’re local, I’m sure you know who I work for.
I suspected as much from the skill set you listed. I just thought that they might have their own range there. I am lucky in that I live in a developement in Romney that comprises about 635 acres, yet only has 7 families living here full time. That gives me enough room to be able to shoot Rifle, Pistol, and even Trap from my back yard. I am looking for help to build some improved shooting positions on my property(20 acres) and the adjoining property(60 Acres). If you want to shoot sometime, you can email me at svinrodatfrontiernetdotnet
Regards,
Svin
Svin,
Just looked up Romney. Do you ever get over to the Bridgewater steam show? I think the Wife and I are going to try and make it this year. I’ve got to deliver a quart of paint to someone who’s going to analyze it for me.
Adding to The Monster’s list…
1951: NPN transistor invented by Shockley’s group at Bell Labs.
Don,
I have heard of the steam show but never attended. It looks like it would take me 1.5 to 2 hrs to get there from here. That is just about the outer limit for the wife and I for a day trip. Let me know if you are ‘fer sher’ going and I will speak to the Missus.BTW, Where are you coming from?
Svin
email svinrodatfrontiernetdotnet
Rocketguy,
Roger that. I’m in the big middle of “the never ending remodel” of a hundred year old house that was built by (as near as I can tell) drunken idiots.
I can’t sit through GWTW either. It’s a great cinematic spectacle, but it’s not a great movie. Casablanca is.
Someday you will get a chance to draw a breath, kick back and enjoy a quiet afternoon on your own. Maybe then you can join me at Rick’s. I’ll be at the bar as close as possible to Sam’s piano.
Give your young ‘un’s extra hugs for me. You don’t have to tell them they came from an Ugly, Smelly Beast.
Rocketguy,
Roger that. I’m in the big middle of “the never ending remodel” of a hundred year old house that was built by (as near as I can tell) drunken idiots.
I can’t sit through GWTW either. It’s a great cinematic spectacle, but it’s not a great movie. Casablanca is.
Someday you will get a chance to draw a breath, kick back and enjoy a quiet afternoon on your own. Maybe then you can join me at Rick’s. I’ll be at the bar as close as possible to Sam’s piano.
Give your young ‘un’s extra hugs for me. You don’t have to tell them they came from an Ugly, Smelly Beast.
Sorry for the double post.
It was NOT Dougman’s fault. I claim sole responsibility for it.
Beast: According to my wife (at least when she’s in a mood), the little-uns already get hugs from an ugly, smelly beast.
During my house work, one of my favorite phrases is, “What the…why did they….honey, come look at this!”
Svin: You’re local and have shooting facilities? I’m your new best friend. I’d be glad to help out with some range improvements.
Rocketguy,
I am local. I have plenty of safe space to shoot. I am semi-retired, so I have lots of spare time. Actual facilities at this time are primitive. A couple of pallets to hang targets on, a manually operated clay target flinger and a picnic table. Tomorrow, I hope to clear some woods and do some grading in the back to open a path to the back mountain which would make a great backstop. Next week the wife and I are busy refinishing the kitchen/diningroom. If you need any help on your projects, I can bang nails, hang drywall, and cut wood. See you on the new comments page
Regards~Svin
update? getting a little out of hand here . . . ;o)
Monster …
Thanks very much for bringing Mr. Sayet’s piece to attention. Southern CA has been my home from birth, and what he says about the Hollywood scene (with periodic and rare qualifications) is altogether accurate. In the context of my work, I sometimes have to sell myself to these people
and some years ago “partied” with a lot of them. Great times superficially, wasted times in hindsight.
I’ve not heard reference to Allan Bloom’s “Closing of the American Mind” since or before I read that great book about ten years ago. Much as Mr. Whittle’s essays have done, it lent considerable clarity to the misgivings I’ve always had concerning reality as it was fed to me.
With a few form editings, I’ll forward this article (selectively and with credits) to family and friends.
All my best to you, Bill, and so many other great contributors here.