Name 5 Reasons a Man Should Get Married
This is the question I have been asking men around California that I meet at various blogger and pundit meet-ups for dinner. One dinner guest I sat next to the other night told me he had gotten married last week. We were discussing marriage at the table and I turned to him and asked why he had gotten married. “Can you name one reason a man should get married?” I asked, trying somehow to be polite, but probably failing miserably.
He thought about it for a minute and said “because the woman wants to and he will lose her if he doesn’t.” That sounds more like blackmail to me than a reason. Last night, at another event, I asked other men if they could name five reasons a man should get married. There was silence and then a discussion about the war against men and if that was true or not.
Another day, I talked to a hair dresser at a salon about men and marriage and she said she had a cousin who had a boyfriend who wouldn’t marry her, even though they had two children together. “She is desperate to get married,” said the hairdresser. “What’s in it just for him?” I asked. She couldn’t think of anything.
As I think about it, I wonder in today’s anti-male climate, whether there are financial and legal reasons that a man would want to marry. Maybe I’m being too cynical here. Can readers help me out?
This probably goes without saying, but it’s not that there are no good reasons. It’s that all the good reasons are undermined by female supremacist laws.
Marriage is undermined by the bias family law courts. Foolish to get married and have children. Just have kids and play on playa.
Sadly, we are witnessing the slow death of marriage…thanks to government interference (via toxic incentives of destructive and secretive family law system). Men are kept ignorant of the incredible risk they expose themselves to through (modern) marriage. But, the good news is, men are slowly learning, through word of mouth, how truly stupid they would be to marry these days. Nobody commits to disadvantage.
1-no other adult in my life is as interested in me as my wife
2-I grew up without a father. Being a father has helped repair that damage
3-I get to be the one who interacts the most with this talented, smart, sexy woman
4-we have more money together
5-when I ended up at the ER hospital she, as always, was there to support me
I’m divorced and remarried. The first one was a b* so choose wisely. But don’t be afraid to play.
My wife married me knowing I was going blind for god’s sake!
Because dogs aren’t good at holding a conversation? But I’m not much of a talker, which is why I’m single at 48 with 2 dogs.
Same here. Except it’s two cats.
And I still have my car, my house, and my money. And no drama, no heartache, and no arguments.
Occasionally I still miss my ex-long-term-lover, but then I engage my brain.
Orion
Maybe it was just a case of hope over experience but I married a fantastic woman for the second time 14 years ago and am very glad I did. Five reasons?… probably not, but I can give you one: A good marriage (and that’s the caveat) provides a certain life-cycle structure and predictability that I don’t think you can really get without the religious (or moral for you atheists out there) and legal covenants that accompany the institution. I know pretty much the rules by our lives together will proceed and, ultimately, end. There’s a lot a piece-of-mind to be had in that.
Besides, call me old fashioned (I’m 62): If you love her and want to live with her, you have an obligation to marry her. It’s that simple.
Alan, well said, Sir, well said!
Thank you. Please forgive the misspellings. I’m a terrible proofreader sometimes.
Why are you obligated? It’s no longer expected by society. There are no repercussions to her reputation or yours, thanks to 30-40 years of work by the “no judgment” generation. So serious question, why? Just to follow traditions from generations past? It’s not like we still get dowrys, so many of those traditions are already discarded.
Yes GFM there really no reasons to marry. All the previous structures have been swept away.
Unless you live in a minority culture where the old rules still apply.
Many of us have higher standards than society today does.
Thankfully for society there are still some who agree with you.
Many of us believe it to be morally demanded of us–not by society, maybe even not by the woman herself, but by God or [insert relevant religion/moral-ethical system]. Perhaps one can get away with eschewing marriage these days–if society be the ONLY thing to which one is answerable. But neither that, nor the purely this-worldly advantages of eschewing it, constitutes the whole story.
well I guess when she takes 50% of your assets and 75% of your future earnings while restricting you from having contact with your children, your life would become very predictable indeed. but I wouldn’t say it provides peace of mind.
Well said, sir. A good marriage to a good woman is the greatest joy I’ve experienced. It’ll be 20 years in February. Best decision I ever made. But then, I’m fortunate in the fact that there is no finer woman than my wife.
Except mine, of course.
I regard it as a privilege and a pleasure to be married to my wife.
Alan, I agree. I got married the second time twenty years ago next month. I did for several reasons, but the most important was to show her that I cared for her as much as she cared for me and marriage proved it. I truly wanted and want to spend the rest of my life with her. Marriage made that obvious.
I also, though, married her because we lived together for five years just so she could see what I was really like, and in that time it was obvious that there is not much better than coming ‘home’ to a place where there is someone or will soon be someone who cares very much about you and I wanted to have the least possible chance of losing that. She says she feels the same.
That’s not five reasons, but they were and are good enough for me.
I agree with what you said except my wife of 25 years just decided that she is not happy and wants to find herself. I don’t mind her taking half the assets even though I earned probably 90% or more of the money since we got married. I don’t understand all the alimony when the only reason she is leaving is because she is not happy anymore and wants a change.
Welcome to Marriage 2.0
If you waste her time
And refuse to marry the girl
Then you are a jerk
Waste her time? LOL!
If being together without being married is considered a waste, then getting married would be exactly the thing NOT to do.
If both people are enjoying the relationship, then there is no wasted time. If one person is in the relationship only because the expect something more, then they are more of a parasite… hanging on, wasting time, and ultimately having to get brushed off at some point when the host realizes she’s just a parasite… Awe… now she wasted all that time and needs to start over seeking out another host to leech off of.
5 good reasons? Okay. Just a sec…
Hmmmmmmm….
Hang on. Uh. It’s coming to me.
Just a sec…
Ah! She’s got one of yours in the oven and her Dad’s got a Baretta .12-guage RS-202 pump action with 6 rounds of deer slugs in the pipe.
Whew! Knew I’d get one.
What?! You want FOUR MORE! I give up.
“Ah! She claims she’s got one of yours in the oven and her Dad’s got a Baretta .12-guage RS-202 pump action with 6 rounds of deer slugs in the pipe.”
FTFY
The following advert from Renault (called the Wedding) gives more reasons as to why it is not a good idea for men to get married and that a man should always know in advance what he is going to end up paying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69eDnJ1DXdc
Oh, I agree: Renault owners should not get married.
Or have children. Or try.
Justice Holmes, Buck v. Bell.
If her daddy has 6 slugs in his 12-gauge waiting for you, don’t they count as 6 reasons? One more than asked for.
I agree with the moral godless. In addition, I think men and women tend to have incompatible expectations of marriage (or a LTR). This is not surprising given the amount of terrible relationship advice being handed out.
As Dr. Helen points out in her hairdresser conversation, women have forgotten that the man just isn’t there to meet their needs, they need to be the other half of the relationship, and given the current state of the laws (in the U.S. at least), the man is taking on a huge liability.
Myself, I’ve reached the age of 50 without having married – I’ve known enough divorced men (and seen what they’ve had to go through) that I wouldn’t recommend it to anybody. The benefits vs. risk and consequences don’t add up.
“…I think men and women tend to have incompatible expectations of marriage…”
Very true, but it is only men who face severe financial penalties with legal consequences (which have been administered by biased legal authorities) when they fail to fulfill women’s expectations of marriage.
I told my 20 something son he’d be nuts to get married. I asked him to look at his friends who’d gotten married and how that’d worked out, then to look at the majority of his friend’s parents and seen how they’d worked out.
On the other hand, I told my 20-something daughter that if she wanted kids it’d be best to get married and have them earlier than later. And her mother agreed.
Yeah, the field’s tilted these days. Only one sex should be getting married. Hey wait, isn’t that what the gays have been telling us?!
The woman has a far higher income than he does, and he lives in a community property state.
Wife: “Hmmm! I think I’m going to divorce my husband! But I don’t want him to get any of my income! I know…I’ll accuse him of domestic violence!”
Feminists:”There’s an app for that!”
‘Child support’ laws are designed to screw the man even if the woman makes more.
By calling it ‘child support’ even though it is really alimony and feminists have fought hard to ensure that the women is not required to show she spent it on the child, they have bypassed that.
There is no way a man can win under present divorce laws. None whatsoever. Only if a man marries a wealthy Elizabeth Taylor type AND they have no children, might he possibly not lose out big (let alone gain).
Female here. I absolutely have to agree that there is no good reason for a man to marry a woman these days. I am in the horrible situation of being divorced with kids and living with a man who is divorced with kids and wondering if we have to get married. There is absolutely no reason for him to marry me, other than its what I want. and that is not a good reason. It’s important to me that he is willing to, but I don’t want him to be in the position he was just in with his first wife. She screwed him on child support and alimony both.
“he lives in a community property state” should be “they will live in a community property state when they are married”.
1) really likes being nagged
2) has too much free time
3) just doesn’t know what to do with his money
4) doesn’t want to hang w/ his friends anymore
5) imagine the casseroles!
Being serious: The only reason a man should get married is if he wants an heir, and wants that child (or children) to grow up in a stable traditional environment.
Being serious back:
You have no guarantee that the child she will have is your and a very high degree of probability that it is not. And even if you ARE able to prove it is not yours, you will still be liable to pay for it.
Stability? Only the stability of slavery – As long as you do everything she wishes and put up with her every whim you can be certain that….well, no because she might find you boring and leave anyway.
There is no stability. Seen the divorce statistics lately? Add them to the infidelity statistics and let me know what your odds of stable are.
Orion
hahahahaha… oh, THAT needed a spew warning…
If we didn’t have procreative instincts we would be waring gender tribes, so.
get married if you have kids and make it stick, but choose wisely, young padawan. it’s good to be lucky too. some people, like the proprietress are good, and lucky.
What if you’re not lucky?
If you’re not lucky the first time around you might not have enough money to try your luck a second time.
The only consolation I have in my life nowadays is the fact that I KNOW I’m not lucky.
The reasons are
1) Someone to share the foxhole with.
2) Procreation and rearing in a two-parent family.
3) Economies of scale.
4) The social network that women create better than we do.
5) Sex.
If you have all five of these in marriage, it will almost certainly last because it means you have found a true partner. It’s finding that woman that has become so difficult because modern feminists have taught so many many women that humans with penises are the enemy.
TFR basically covers the benefits. I would add that marriage is about investing in people who will be there to support you at the end of life.
How odd.
You voice just about the only reason I ever give to get married. I don’t think TFR’s list is … realistic.
For her it’s to have and raise children ( which are, for certain, hers. “fathers”, not so much )
For him, it’s about not dying alone.
These days? Forget it.
“It’s finding that woman that has become so difficult…”
Trying to find such a woman nowadays would be like trying to find a straw in a stack of poisoned needles.
I disagree. I had no trouble finding a woman that became SO difficult …
With all due respect…
1) Someone to share the foxhole with.
Of course, she is free to leave the foxhole anytime and take 50% of the marriage assets and children with her.
2) Procreation and rearing in a two-parent family.
Increasingly, children are born outside of marriage. The majority of women under 30 who have children are not married. Not to say fathers shouldn’t be involved, but if so it may be outside the traditional marriage structure. Get used to it.
3) Economies of scale.
Yes. If it’s a happy marriage and you stay together, there can be some economic benefits. However, a divorce will split everything by 50%, maybe worse for the husband if the wife doesn’t work – alimony, maintenance, etc. Divorce can be devastating to net worth and future income. One way to manage this risk: don’t get married in the first place.
4) The social network that women create better than we do.
I agree women are generally more social, and I have seen too many men become reliant on their spouse for companionship at the expense of other relationships. But is this a good thing? And in the event of a divorce most if not all of the friends will side with the wife.
5) Sex.
Oh please. A woman (or a man for that matter) can choose to stop having sex with their partner at any time. There is nothing a man can do about this, but if he chooses to satisfy his sexual passions outside the marriage it becomes grounds for a nasty divorce and huge payout for the wife. The better way to ensure sex is to not get married because a man can always move on to someone else with no repercussions if his girlfriend decides she doesn’t want to have sex anymore.
There is nothing more pathetic than the thought of a man who married with the objective of regular sex only to find his wife decides she does not want to have sex with him after all. There is no easy way out of this situation but it is wuite common, I’m sure.
I’d like to see prostitution more common, legal and regulated. If it were, I’ll bet even fewer men would want to get married. They certainly wouldn’t do so based on the false assumption that marriage = easy sex.
I agree with your points, that is why it is so important to choose who you marry with complete confidence and care.
The other reasons for marriage are religious.
Trey
I’m happily married, and I suspect that strongly colors my response, but I can think of at least three good reasons to get married.
1. Marriage lends itself to a deeper relationship with your significant other. It is absolutely possible to form a profound and permanent bond with somebody without legal and religious overlay, but the legal and religious overlay can provide a strong push in the right direction. If you want that kind of relationship, I think you are playing the odds by getting married.
2. A solid traditional marriage is the best framework for raising healthy, well-adjusted children. Again, plenty of married folks screw their kids up royally, but if you want kids and you want to give them the best shot at a good life, you’re playing the odds by getting married and doing your best to make the marriage healthy.
3. There are advantages to having one stay at home parent, and getting somebody to accept that role is a much tougher sell without the additional bonds of commitment that accompany marriage. I have a nice career, but I wouldn’t be doing nearly so well without a great, stay-at-home wife making a good home and raising my kids well.
I will say, however, that marriage is a high beta stock. I fully acknowledge that a lot of marriages don’t work out, and the harm created by a bad marriage can be every bit as profound as the benefits that come from a good one.
I also acknowledge that a lot of risks to marriage borne by men are created by biased legal rules solving problems that have their origins in 1950s or 1970s stereotypes that no longer reflect the nation and economy that we live and work in. And the complete absence of reproductive rights for men is beyond depressing.
But even with all of that, when the time comes, I’ll tell my boy: “Always slap a Jimmie on it, son. Always. And when you think you’ve the right girl, let it mellow for a couple years at least, and if you love her more after those two years, marry the sh-t out of her and then invest as much time and emotional energy into making it work as you can, because if you do, you’ll be much more likely to die a happy man in a hospital room surrounded by people whose hearts are breaking as you move on.”
3. There are advantages to having one stay at home parent, and getting somebody to accept that role is a much tougher sell without the additional bonds of commitment that accompany marriage. I have a nice career, but I wouldn’t be doing nearly so well without a great, stay-at-home wife making a good home and raising my kids well.
Indeed. It is a pretty tough sell to tell a woman she doesn’t have to work anymore and you will pay all her bills and she can do whatever she wants for as long as you are together. Tough sell. That woman is sure doing you a big favor by letting you take care of her while she gossips with her friends.
Tell that to my mother. She was a highly motivated business woman before having my siblings and myself later in life (She was 38 to 40). She hated the routine work of the household. I’m very thankful she stayed with us at the house.
The benefits of marriage are all dependent on your spouse. Find a person who is driven and responsible, and you’ll have a great marriage if you put some work into it. I think a lot of posters are forgetting that women feel the emotional costs of divorce much more than men. This emotional cost is also a very high detriment to divorce.
When we got married, I earned about 40% more than my husband did. Yet I was the one who gave up her career – not because I wanted to, necessarily, but because he’s a traditional sort of guy and while I would have been fine with a house-husband, he would not have been OK with this.
Financially, I would probably be better off if I’d never gotten married, but in ever other respect – I am better off married.
My husband and I have been through a lot together – my getting cancer, his losing his job and being out of work for a while, then starting up a new business, my Mom needing to move in with us, etc. We’ve stuck together through all of that and we still enjoy our “date nights” when it’s just the two of us.
However, I grew up with parents who stayed married until my Dad died after 40 years of marriage, and my husband grew up in a traditional Catholic household with similar values. We are people of faith and that makes a difference for us, too, because we believe in following God’s laws, and those are not always about one’s own “self-interest”, but about sacrificial love.
I also believe that if you are raising children, that is the best gift you can give them – to love their other parent and stay with that person in a stable household.
All that being said, something no one else seems to mention – why not set up pre-nuptial contracts that protect both parties? It should address the concerns both people have, and also their expectations for the marriage and the consequences if those expectations aren’t met. For example, if a divorce occurs due to her adultery, HE gets the children, pays no child support, etc. If a divorce occurs due to HIS infidelity – she gets the kids, gets maximum benefits, etc. In other words, forget the no-fault divorce stuff – when you get married, you are not just promising to love and cherish each other, you are forming a covenant, a binding contract. There should be consequences if either party breaks the promise.
If there is a divorce due to mutual agreement, with neither party being at fault, then the only fair thing is joint custody of the children, with each parent paying for the expenses when he or she has the children – thus no need to worry about child support, right?
I think when two people get engaged, they should go through the pre-marital counseling offered through their church (which really helps them think through a variety of issues such as in-laws, finances, etc.) AND work out a pre-nup that is fair for both sides. Why not? If you are truly committed to the marriage and plan to be with each other forever, then you’ll never need it. But, if something happens, it will make the divorce much less stressful. It’s like an insurance policy.
As some wise person said to Obama: Hope isn’t a plan.
LOL! Sex? Obviously, this person has never been married.
Indeed.
I beg to disagree. I’ve been married for 36 years, and my wife has given me all the sex I could handle. She loves me, and her rationale, in addition to the fact she enjoys sex, is to keep me burnt to the ground so I have nothing left for any other women. I like her thinking
You only speak for yourselves.
I’ll give you one huge reason to never marry an American woman. Even if she doesn’t divorce you cause she goes insane, it doesn’t matter what you do for her. It doesn’t matter how much you sacrifice for her. It doesn’t matter how easy she has it or how much she has. She will be the one being put upon, the one making the tremendous sacrifice of dealing with you, and you will owe her big. No. Matter. What. This is accomplished through the simple mechanism of declaring that whatever she has demanded, and you have given her, was actually HER making a sacrifice:
Tell that to my mother. She was a highly motivated business woman before having my siblings and myself later in life (She was 38 to 40). She hated the routine work of the household. I’m very thankful she stayed with us at the house.
The benefits of marriage are all dependent on your spouse. Find a person who is driven and responsible, and you’ll have a great marriage if you put some work into it. I think a lot of posters are forgetting that women feel the emotional costs of divorce much more than men. This emotional cost is also a very high detriment to divorce.
This is why women don’t like “being forced to tell you something that you should know already”. Can you see his mother trying to lie her way out of “I want to stay home, we have enough money, what you don’t love your child? You child needs his mother!” into “I made this terrible sacrifice against my will, and I really didn’t like staying home, and it’s all your fathers fault!(And yours for being born, child)”
So I’d tell his mother, right to her face, that she is a shameless liar.
When someone does a straight up favor for his wife, at huge personal cost, the wife will declare, boldly, that it is in fact HER making the sacrifice.
As a Christian, I can tell you that the Bible is quite clear that one is never to deny one’s spouse sexual satisfaction, except for a period of time that both parties agree to – for example, if the husband gives it up for Lent as a sacrifice to the Lord, with his wife’s agreement. However, the Bible also makes it clear both husbands and wives are to enjoy the marriage bed and each other. It says that after marriage, her body belongs to him and his body belongs to her – for their mutual pleasure.
If you read the Bible in its entirety, it’s pretty clear that sex outside of marriage is condemned, but sex within marriage is encouraged and celebrated. A lot of the twisted concepts people have about sexual enjoyment being sinful, etc., are NOT Biblical.
Now, obviously, when two people are married and have small children, it can be hard to find the time and energy for sex, but this is a temporary period – children grow up and spouses can re-connect. Hopefully the emotional and spiritual intimacy within a marriage actually heighten sexual pleasure between people.
Let me deal with each of these in turn:
1: Not really viable. Women are excellent liars as a pack and are much more likley to bail on you and leave you to your fate. There are a few female Soldiers I’d trust at my back, but not many. And they’re a tiny percentage of a vanishingly tiny percentage of our population.
2: No guarantee the child is yours and a high degree of probability that it is not and she’s lying about it. Also, 2-parents will last until she gets bored of you or finds a better sugar-daddy when she will then dump you, take ‘your’ kid and your money (present and future) and leave. You get the same stability with a long-term girlfriend.
3: Can be had with a roommate of either sex.
4: Can be had with a girlfriend or girl friend.
5: Can be easily had without being married.
In short, none of these are valid reasons to get married.
Orion
Anyone can use the reasons they want. You are not the arbiter of valid reasons.
lol
“anyone can use anything they want.”
and people wonder why the West is dying under the postmodern neocon honor-free ethos.
lzozozozo
Reasons, genius. Any REASONS. If you’re going to smugly mock somebody, quote them properly. He is simply saying that an individual’s reasons to marry or not will vary.
I would say “neo-cons” are the only people who still have any honor. Or as Bill Whittle answered when someone asked him what he is called a “neocon” – he says “thank you”.
ummm,
i don’t recall moses and jesus saying “marriage is anything you want it to be, depending on your own personal reasons/whims/emotions.”
but that is how your defined marriage.
perhaps that is why marriage is failing? many neocons are trotskyites who believe in the “noble lie.” so marriage, to them, is just a “noble lie” they tell men so they can can their hooks in them and drain them of their assets–of their god-given life, liberty, and happiness via a modern, desouled women.
lzozozozo
If you go into a relationship holding something back for fear you’re going to lose it, you’ve already lost. Marriage and sex both inherently entail making yourself vulnerable. If you can’t handle that, swear off women. Yes, cuckoldry is a terrible crime, and there’s a reason that the Old Testament prescribes the death penalty for adultery (for both the cheating wife and the interloper).
That said, an overwhelming majority of DNA tests confirm that the mother’s husband is indeed the child’s father, and these are initiated when the putative father has doubts. I don’t need a DNA test to know that my mother’s husband is my biological father- I can see the physical resemblance for myself. You grossly misrepresent reality when you say that there is a very high degree of probability that the child isn’t yours. And another thing, what’s with the singular? In my neighborhood growing up, I knew exactly one family that only had one child. Maybe where you’re from only children are more common, but maybe that’s the problem here: you’re selfish, and so are the women you’re describing, which is why you’re not interested in having children. Me? I don’t have children yet, because I’m not married. I would be married by now if it were my choice, and I probably would have wound up regretting it, so thank God for prayers that are answered with “no.”
Now I’m not saying Proverbs 31 women like my mother are common, for the Bible would not have referred to them as more precious than rubies were that so, but I will not let your cynical dismissal of marriage go unanswered. For the record, my parents just celebrated their 25th anniversary last summer, and the last five years have not been easy, but that only makes the bond stronger. My paternal grandparents were married for 52 years before my grandfather died, and likewise I can say from physical resemblance that he was my biological grandfather and my uncle’s biological father.
So yes, choose wisely. The wrong woman is a death trap, but the right woman will stay by your side “for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, ’til death do us part.” Of course, if you want to marry the right woman, you had better be worthy of her, and that means no double standards. You will devote yourself to her and keep yourself pure for her (there’s a reason adultery and adulterate share the same root word, “adultere,” meaning “impure”). You will not view pornography, but rather be willfully aroused only by your wife. You will provide for your family. You will embrace her fertility and happily beget children with her. You will not envy other men’s wives nor the lives of single men. You will not give the impression that you are anything other than a faithfully married man. In turn, you demand the same behavior of your wife.
Solid red pill familiarity here.
TFR’s list is very good. I’m surprised that no one is taking it seriously, and he missed ones.
0. The divorce rate is still very low among the relatively well-off. It’s just that the poor, and the lower-to-mid middle class are failing marriage 101. Find someone with upper-class values, highly religious values, a family without divorcees, a strong ethics of fairness, or upper-class (not hollywood, but real upper class) friends…and you’re set. People like that don’t get divorced. And they work to make their marriages work. On the other hand, if you suck at picking partners, maybe you shouldn’t.
0.5 Pre-nup. Legal contracts are legal contracts. Make one. Using real lawyers. If you’re worried about the hideous legal climate that you default into … fix it.
But now for the real reasons…TFR’s + 1.
1. Do you want kids to raise? To be your kids when they’re adults? When you’re old? Marriage is the best path to that, regardless of it’s imperfections, or its downright crap.
2. If you want kids, do you want them to be well off. Single-parenting is near the top of the “worst-things-you-can-do-to-kids” list. Huge statistical evidence. Marriage sticks together better than cohabitation.
Yes, 1,2 constitute “do it for the kids”. That was most of my reasoning when I opted in.
3. Sex. Married people have more sex than non-married people. Horror stories suck. But the data appears pretty clear.
4. Wealth. Rich people = married people. Poor people = divorced people, unmarried people with kids. 2 incomes and 1 set of expenses is much better than one income and one set of expenses. Also, 1 income and one full time home-maker is a much better life (for most) than 1 income without said full-time home-maker.
5. Partnership in life, not just in business. Two minds to solve problems are better than one. Of course, you have to become partners to do that.
6. The history. A life without a shared history sucks. If you don’t spend much of your time with folks who know you tremendously well, and who have known you for near forever, your life is impoverished. If you can get that without getting married? Good luck to ya.
Nice list. I agree.
0. If an airline only crashed 40% of the time, or just 20%, instead of 60%, and all the men aboard would lose their children and wealth, while the women would keep theirs, would men still fly?
0.5 Pre-nup. Legal contracts are legal contracts. Make one. Using real lawyers. If you’re worried about the hideous legal climate that you default into … fix it.
LOZOZOZLLZ. So what you are saying is that if two people break their promise before God, lawyers can make up for it. Are you selling divorce attorney services, along with your “only 40% crash” airline tickets?
But now for the real reasons…TFR’s + 1.
1. Do you want kids to raise? To be your kids when they’re adults? When you’re old? Marriage is the best path to that, regardless of it’s imperfections, or its downright crap.
LOL!! Have you read Stephen Baskerville’s TAKEN INTO CUSTODY? lzozozolzloz
2. If you want kids, do you want them to be well off. Single-parenting is near the top of the “worst-things-you-can-do-to-kids” list. Huge statistical evidence. Marriage sticks together better than cohabitation.
YES! And that is why you should be directing your rage and anger against women who initiate 75-85 percent of all divorces! Also, you should be directing your rage against the banking cartels that created feminism to desoul women.
Yes, 1,2 constitute “do it for the kids”. That was most of my reasoning when I opted in.
3. Sex. Married people have more sex than non-married people. Horror stories suck. But the data appears pretty clear.
This is simply not true. Many non-married people have more sex than married people. Especially in today’s climate.
4. Wealth. Rich people = married people. Poor people = divorced people, unmarried people with kids. 2 incomes and 1 set of expenses is much better than one income and one set of expenses. Also, 1 income and one full time home-maker is a much better life (for most) than 1 income without said full-time home-maker.
LOZOZOOZLZL you contradict yourself! You write “poor people = divorced people.” YES! ANOTHER REASON NOT TO GET MARRIED!!!
5. Partnership in life, not just in business. Two minds to solve problems are better than one. Of course, you have to become partners to do that.
What? Partnership? Why do I have to sign a contract to give half my wealth to someone if she boffs the pool boy? 75% of 85% of divorces are initiated by women, so if you need a partner, seek a man!
6. The history. A life without a shared history sucks. If you don’t spend much of your time with folks who know you tremendously well, and who have known you for near forever, your life is impoverished. If you can get that without getting married? Good luck to ya.
LOLlzozozoz! Many people can live perfectly happily with many firends and deep relationships, without having a fatty buttcocked domineering desouled transferrer of wealth to feed.
Something tells me you are one of them.
You’re an idiot, and a troll.
Dear Benjamin,
Do you not know that personal attacks, vulgarity, and namecalling are against forum rules?
Why the h8?
Is it because you sense the deep down thundering truth, and it exhorts you to lash out?
Actually, GBFM’s points are correct. But he missed an argument.
Someone earlier talked about the emotional benefits of being in a marriage. I’ve seen both marriage and divorce. The emotional costs of divorce are tremendous, far outweighing the benefits received in marriage. Think “root canal without end”.
There’s a good reason this and GBFMs reasons are hidden from men contemplating marriage. Marriage 2.0 is for suckers.
That’s OUR arguments. And your arguments are…name calling. Hmm.
You’re the troll. You project like a female.
The average married man has sex once every four days. You’re delusional if you believe that normal single people have sex that often. Most so-called players only have sex once a week or less, and a great number of singles don’t have sex at all (voluntarily or involuntarily). Now as for divorces, you better believe I condemn them! I agree with Jesus: marriage is for life, so remarriage after divorce is adultery, whether you initiate the divorce or not, and it is adultery to marry a divorced person.
you say you agree with jesus.
but i don’t recall jesus walking around boasting of how much more sex people would have in only they got married!!
jesus based marriage upon the higher ideals, also espoused by moses.
as a neocon, you are trying to trick us into the marriage sham (which is but a front for the divorce cartel) with promises of lots of sexy-sexy time.
once every four days! yes, that is worth her taking the children, your freedom, your assets, and your life’s savings after banging whoever she wants up until she married you at thirty, and then banging everyone she wants during and after marriage too!!
adultery is legal these days. not sending an adulteress alimony is illegal.
this is what you get when the neocon banking cartel, and not god, defines marriage.
and it is why marriage is over.
“Also, you should be directing your rage against the banking cartels that created feminism to desoul women.”
What the hell does banking have to do with feminism?
ummm are you kidding me?
the fiat banking cartels funded feminism, as both central banks and the abolition of the family are central tenets of the fiatocracy.
what, did you think the abolition of the family happened all on its own? lol!
their divorce/debt/debauchery regime accomplishes many things:
1) it transfers wealth from men to the state
2) it desouls women (via secretive tapings of you know what) and makes them loyal to the corporate-state bottom line, instead of the teachings of Jesus and Moses
3) it messes up the kids and sends them to corporate-state daycare
4) it allows them to convert fiat dollars into physical wealth and property
please, do not take my word for it, my tender little lamb and flock of lost sheep.
please, listen to the enlightening words of an insider:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCpjmvaIgNA
Blot out 0.5, for it invalidates the marriage. A marriage entered with divorce as an option is no marriage at all.
Good to know that you admit that American style “marriage” is no marriage at all since all American style “marriages” have divorce included.
I am interested – what cultures, aside from Catholic ones, do not have divorce? “And he shall give her a document of spearation, and place in her hand”.
Yes, mzk1, it was out of the hardness of your hearts that Moses permitted divorce, but the Rabbi said, “What God has joined, let no man separate.” In the extreme case of grave physical or moral danger, it is permissible for a man and his wife to stop living together, but they remain married until one of them dies. This is for those inside the Church; it has no meaning to non-Christians, but I say it here as a counterweight to the evildoers who encourage sin. How far we have fallen, that your rabbis and Protestant ministers, and much as I am disgusted to say it, many Catholic presbyters, have condoned sorcery in the form of contraceptives and approve of the sin of Onan.
The Rabbi berated the teachers of the Law in His day because they weren’t doing it properly, but instead distorted the Law to unjust ends, like creating shelters for their money to avoid supporting their aging parents.
But it’s OK when women do it. Your lack of self awareness tells me you’re female.
Prenups exist to protect hard working men from lazy women. GBFM is right that they’re a poor lawyerly patch to the problem, the problem of lifetime theft of assets and income from the productive (usually men) to the nonproductive (usually women).
That the default mode, marriage with no prenup, allows the female to transfer resources from the man for life doesn’t trouble you. But it troubles you when men call bullshit on that practice and start to take steps to curb the theft via prenups.
I can see how that would really bother you.
When did I say it was okay when women do it? I have no double standards. Marriage is for life, period. If you go into it denying that, you aren’t married at all, and you are living in sin by “marrying.” If you freely enter marriage and then destroy the marriage, you are guilty of adultery. If you reconcile with your estranged spouse, you do well, but if not, you are obligated to remain celibate until one of you dies. “Remarry” before then, and both you and your paramour are guilty of adultery, and you incur the guilt of adultery again every time you have sex. If it’s a sin for a man to do it, it’s a sin for a woman to do it.
Agree with you. I am so glad my parents were married, and were happly married until my Dad died. The day before he had a massive heart attack, he was singing love songs to her. She still misses him 5 years later.
I’m really glad I found a good husband. Our marriage isn’t perfect, but we take care of each other. What a lot of people don’t get – marriage is not about “me, me, me”. It’s about the other person. It’s part of growing up and disciplining your self and learning to put someone else’s needs first. He thinks about me more than himself and I think about him first. If he’s had a rough day – what can I do to make it easier for him? If I’m having a hard day, he does the same for me. That kind of thing.
Interestingly, if you look at the successful societies in the world – the ones which are civilizationally advanced – they all have a strong code towards marriage. If you look at our own society, it’s quickly becoming a two-tiered one. The kids who grow up with married parents, even if the parents make less money, are emotionally more stable, less likely to go to jail or have a teen pregnancy, more likely to make good choices, etc. Children need fathers as well as mothers which is one reason marriage is so important – because without marriage, the father is much more likely to leave.
As far as those arguing that a man is better off leaving his wife of many years for a young hottie – if all you see in a woman is a hot body, then you are basically seeing her as a sex-object (objectifying her) and the response is for her to see you as a wallet (a money-object). Or whatever SHE can use. When you marry someone, however, you see them as a complete person, with strengths and weaknesses and someone you serve, not someone you use.
Cynical people who think all women (or all men) stink should not get married or have children! If you’re a man and you don’t want to end up living a horror story divorce – may I suggest – don’t marry the first pretty face you see. I’ve known men who focus it seems only on looks (just like some women focus only on his earning power) and then are surprised that they fight all the time, etc.
For me, ultimately, though, it comes down to living your life so you are pleasing to God. if both you and your mate have God as their first focus, then the rest of it does seem to work itself out.
“A life w/o shared history sucks.”
Not anywhere near as much as a life w/shared history involving a vindictive skank. And that ain’t just me, but apparently God thinks so too:
Pr 12:4 A virtuous WOMAN is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.
Pr 14:1 Every wise WOMAN buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.
Pr 21:9 It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling WOMAN in a wide house.
Pr 21:19 It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry WOMAN.
Pr 23:27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange WOMAN is a narrow pit.
Pr 25:24 It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop, than with a brawling WOMAN and in a wide house.
Pr 27:15 A continual dropping in a very rainy day and a contentious WOMAN are alike.
Pr30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.
21 For three things the earth is disquieted, and for four which it cannot bear:
22 For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;
23 For an odious woman when she is married; and an handmaid that is heir to her mistress.
Pr 31:10 Who can find a virtuous WOMAN? for her price is far above rubies.
Pr 31:30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a WOMAN that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised.
Ec 7:26 And I find more bitter than death the WOMAN, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.
Ec 7:28 Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a WOMAN among all those have I not found.
Happily Married especially sounds disingenuous describing his happy marriage. Kinda like someone who won HIS game of Russian Roulette and can’t understand why YOU don’t want to play. Marriage is a game where what I can win in no way justifies risking blowing my effing head off, m’kay!!!
As moral godless states, feminism has turned marriage for men into what they claim it was for women back in the “dark ages”. That seems fair.
My sons are young yet, but when they reach that age, I will be advising them against. It’s not that I think marriage is always and everywhere a bust, but the risk of a bad outcome is so high over the long term that it doesn’t add up in my book.
I think often that my own living arrangement might be a lot more pleasant for me if my spouse felt less secure about her bargaining position. Unfortunately that’s how most “modern” women seem to be wired.
The idea that women, as a class, were treated worse than men, as a class, in Western society is total bullshit.
Unless you happen to think sitting at home with the kids is a far worse outcome than trying to beat another man to death with a cudgel for access to a watering hole.
Indeed.
http://www.psy.fsu.edu/~baumeistertice/goodaboutmen.htm
I’m especially intrigued by the idea that we are descended from twice as many women as men, and that 80% of women have procreated, but only 40% of men. That means that 60% of men are, in some sense, over the long haul, wasted.
As a classic artificial philosopher once stated:
“A strange game; the only winning move is not to play.”
To me, a relationship with a modern woman that involves enough cohabitation to get them legally entitled to your shit is like Russian Roulette with a 10rd .22 revolver and 5 of the chambers are loaded. You’ve got a pretty good chance at not shooting yourself, but why take the risk in the first place? Certainly not for the rewards: services of a professional cost a lot less, all things considered.
Only if you don’t count the non-monetary costs. Prostitutes will cost you your health and your soul. It will take a while, but it will catch up to you in due time, and it will kill you.
So will American style “marriage”.
Then remain celibate for the rest of your life. It’s a great blessing if you can handle it, but woe to you if you choose sex without marriage, for that makes you no better than the women you condemn.
Or mythbuster, I can get married outside the Western world where marriages are actually real contracts instead of a farce. I bet Hindus, Muslims and non-Western Christians have a better idea of what family values are than fake plastic American “christians” like you.
Like I said, there is no such thing as traditional marriage in America, you have to look to the third world for real traditional marriage.
This is wise. I have no quarrel with you over foreign brides.
If it Flies, Floats, or Fornicates
.
.
.
Rent It!
having someone to “share the foxhole with” does not require getting married. nor does procreation or a 2 parent family. i am currently taking advantage of economies of scale by having a roommate, no need to get married. also not sure how getting married is the only way one can be a part of a social network, even that of a female. and sex? lol. yeah, because marriage is known for INCREASING the sex that men get. good one.
only reason i can think of is religion.
Actually, it does, on the average. Wait a couple of years.
After still being married for over twenty years, here’s what I tell young men who want to marry:
1. Find business partner with a multiple personality disorder
2. Sign a binding contract that risks all of your assets but none of theirs(include your children). Make sure to include a clause that sends you to prison if they dissolve the contract and you fail to keep up with business expenses.
3. Run up as much debt as you can, consider borrowing money from leg-breaking loan sharks
4. Take all of your aspirations, dreams and goals and bury them in the backyard with your dignity
5. Hover above the floor in a house full of eggshells until one of them cracks and your partner needs an exorcist to calm down.
I also sell time shares in Kabul.
aside from wealth, having a wife is the best practical protection between the most virulent aspects of the US matriarchy and the individual man
females run america, and simply being married tells everyone that, as a male, you are (at least partly) under the thumb of a female already, and thus the male’s opportunities for employment, networking, socializing, and general acceptance greatly increase
married men have a built-in buttress — the presence of a wife makes men less likely to be arrested, bullied, or otherwise harrassed by matriarchal institutions . . . b/c, again, he is already partly bought-in via marital status, thus provisionally OK to the sisterhood
just one example: it’s almost impossible for a single man to be awarded a “ministry” or “pastorship” in the US without a wife (nearby, to tell him what’s OK to do and say) . . . despite the marital status of, say, jesus and baptist john, churches simply will not consider a single man as a spiritual leader . . . after all, he might tell the parishioners, largely females, something true, and Goddess knows THAT cannot be allowed
the Moody Church Network, for instance, is a longstanding, nationwide radio/bible-school organization with their own stable of trained and/or affilliated “pastors”
their rule has always been that any pastor must be married and have at least two children (ie be yoked) or they are not even considered to represent the Moody Church and its religious-empire
multiply that sentiment by a zillion, and you get the picture
or, one could apply the example to, say, obtaining high political office in america . . . seen a lot of single-male presidents during yr life? lol
could go on and on, but the biggest (perhaps only) advantage to a modern male in marriage is the “vetted clout” one accrues simply by signing the papers and putting on the ring
america is ruled by collective female fiat, not by The Patriarchy . . . and america wants her male servants well-yoked and fully under control before she takes a chance on allowing them any real power or influence
if the married man disobeys the gynocracy, or chafes in his chains, he is divorced and eviscerated by the gyno-courts and associated vampires, and he is cut-off from the protection of the Herd, instantly becoming an unprotected outlier (single male) subject to all penalties thereto
Thumbs up.
I am lucky in that I work in a fairly libertine industry where I can be single and almost no one will bat an eyelash. And though I am friendly with many religious people, I have no interest in trying to fit in to their community.
However, I have already experienced several of my male friends being forbidden by their wives from associating with me anymore.
Never heard of the Moody Church- but there is biblical precedent for their actions. In the early days of Christianity, a priest had to be married, had to have a family, and the children had to be well behaved. Keeping his own family in order was evidence he could keep his flock in order.
Not true. Celibate men were always accepted in the priesthood, and it would be an absurdity to suggest otherwise when St. Paul was celibate himself. If he ever had a wife, she died young long before he became a Christian, nor did he have any children.
I Timothy 3, 1-13.
Again, you’re spouting nonsense. You have to read the passage in context: who is writing this passage? St. Paul, who was an unmarried bishop. The correct way to interpret this verse is as a disqualification to people who are married more than once or who have disordered families. Interpreting it as a disqualification to the unmarried renders the entire epistle nonsense, for on what basis could Paul be a bishop if all clergy must be married?
Paul was an Apostle, picked direectly by the big man himself to spread the Good News. A little bit more then a Bishop.
And the apostles set out the rules for the organization of the Church.
So find me a passage from one of the other books where it states the unmarried shall lead us. I suspect it will be hard to find. It took me less then two minutes of going through a Bible I hven’t opened in over a dozen years to find that passage. I knew that Paul had addressed the issue of who should be leaders within the Church.
The passage says what it says. It doesn’t say “Let the single men amongst us take the lead.” It says what it says. Prove otherwise. I prefer to let written passages speak for themselves.
HH, Paul said “I would that all were like me.” So you suggest that he wanted nobody to be fit to be a leader in the Church? You reject the Biblical teaching that celibacy is better than marriage? Furthermore, God does not impose double-standards.
I have been a single man all my life, and in my experience in a traditional office environment single men are sort of looked down on by others, especially women and married men. Maybe single men are not taken seriously because it is presumed they are immature or not able to make a commitment, or simply an outlier when most others in the office are married.
This is a generalization but based on my own experience, when women are middle aged and never married, in the workplace they are considered hard-charging business people who put their careers first. Men who are middle aged and never married are considered immature frat boys who are too afraid to grow up and make a commitment. Or it is assumed that they are gay.
It never seems to occur to anyone that a man has chosen not to marry for rational reasons – because he is aware of the real-world odds against a successful and happy marriage, is knowledgable about the financial and legal implications of marriage especially an unsuccessful one, and has witnessed the emotional and financial damage associated with marriage in terms of divorce etc among their fathers, brothers, or friends.
Ok.. I guess I have inadvertently uncovered a reason for a man to get married: to give the impression to others that he is a mature, responsible, grown up adult. Societal expectations.
This reason will fade over time though as never-married becomes more common.
He is immature if he’s having sex when he’s not married. A man who voluntarily swears off marriage and sex, on the other hand, is quite mature.
I agree. Unmarried men are seen as immature and unreliable.
The alternative is, of course, to become a Morlock. To go to those places where the Bene Gesserit dare not look.
That is, become a tech geek.
We get the moneys, and true tech work (dev and ops) is extremely unattractive to females. It’s the best industry in which to ghost.
Alternatively, trades involving getting damp, dirty or needing physical strength and persistence such as plumbing, contracting, etc. are mostly unattractive to women unless they’re the daughters of tradesmen. Depending on the area, your experience, and the hours you want to put into it, tradesmen can make more than techies or even some professionals.
I hate the way marriage gets such a bad rep. Marriage as it was intended is awesome. 5 reasons:
1. Some one who complements you. Who is strong where you are weak. A person who is on your team,
2. A great sex life w/ someone who knows you and your body and what makes you weak. With no fear of std or will he/she be there in the morning.
3. Someone who knows you and your flaws and still loves you and gives you grace, a best friend.
4. Someone to have and raise children with.
5. Someone who together you can accomplish more than you ever could apart.
I have been married 15 yrs and love it. I feel sad for the people who will never get to experience that type of joy. It has not been perfect but it has been more than worth it.
Sean, also WELL DONE. I might also add that being “selfless” is difficult for many, including me, but yours is a good attitude!
I keep hearing that Not All Women Are Like That. Now I know where the one that isn’t lives – with you.
Congratulations on your happy marriage, but not one of those reasons requires a man to get married. I have all of those things with my girlfriend, except for children, and as we all now know no one has to be married to have children or be a good parent.
“Marriage as intended” was awesome. So was the income tax, socialism, and lobotomies.
But 66% of first marriages end, and 2/3 of those are ended by the wife. The earning spouse loses almost everything, which is irrelevant at age 24, but is catastrophe after age 35.
Here are five reasons to get married:
1. You don’t like kids;
2. Your sole support is from a Spendthrift Trust;
3. She provides the down payment for the house;
4. You will never buy her expensive jewelry (which will be deemed a gift and not community property);
5. You will not be affected when she divorces you since: its her house anyway, she can’t get at the Trust, and you don’t like kids.
Here are five reasons NOT to marry:
1. You will be wiped out and indebted at age 40 and you’ll never earn it all back. Ever.
2. Her new boyfriend will spend more time with your kids than you do.
3. You will pay spousal support forever, since she won’t marry her new BF: just live with him while you pay and pay her as she and her new BF live in the house you bought; She will never get a job: the kids are “too young,” she is now “too old,” the “market is bad,”–she will never work.
4. You will live in an apartment forever, paying for your kids to go to college, as your wife bitches about late support payments while living in your house;
5. No one cares about divorced men: no one; the courts don’t and will toss you in jail if you’re late with child support;
-the US Government can pull your passport too;
-child support accrues till a court changes it–it does not matter if you lose your job;
-the court can “impute” income to you for support calculations–decide that you could be making more than you are;
-child support is not deductible;
-the Natl Org for Women insists that the “primary Caregiver” should get the kids (hint” that is not you).
NO ONE WILL TELL YOU THIS till after you divorce.
And, iff you are a woman and the bigger earner, this applies to you as well.
I am happy to see at least one guy present the case for marriage. I understand a lot of the anger men feel toward women, but really, we are not all bad. Don’t paint us all with the same brush. My hubby and I have been happily married for 27 years. It wasn’t always perfect, but we stood by one another through good times and bad. I am happy to have a partner and friend, who is always there for me and the kids. I do my best to keep him happy, because I appreciate him so much. I wish that all of you would find someone to share your lives with. Think about old age, and being alone. We all lose our charms in the end, to quote Marilyn Monroe, and your girlfriends might not stick around.
Sure, I won’t blame all women. But since the majority of divorces are initiated by women, I wonder. In my case my ex wanted me to file so she could play the victim. She who for years never said “I love you”.
The feminist movement has been good for the wealthy elite women, and few others. Many divorced women with children would still be better off if they had been able to remain in their marriages.
The divorce rate among Catholics practicing Natural Family Planning is around 4%. In order to practice NFP both partners must put God, and their partner, ahead of themselves. Gee, maybe there is something to that.
Carol, you, like my dear wife and I, are adherents to a culture that has nearly died out. I agree with all of the reasons presented here for being married (except for the child thing; my wife is past childbearing age, and I never wanted children), but for younger men today things are different. Many young women today are basically good of heart, but they constantly have postmodern feminism whispering in their ear, telling them lies about men, encouraging them to behave narcissisticly in relationships, and rewarding them when they do. It damages their psyches, and they can do a lot of harm in a relationship without really realizing what they are doing. The most sensitive of them, after they inadvertently blow up their first several relationships, no longer trust themselves to make good choices and they just withdraw. Add this to the percentage of women who really do hate men, and it adds up to young men having little to look forward to when it comes to women.
Just one – for your children.
“Sentimental hogwash!” –Mr. Potter, It’s A Wonderful Life
/crusty old man in a wheelchair
You mean the children that men pay extortionate child support payments for, and then get to see four days a month?
Short of the missus agreeing to a paternity test, how can a man be certain that his children are actually his?
From a woman’s word (e.g. I’m pregnant and you are the father, this is so-and-so and he/she is your son/daughter, etc)?
As if that is a reliable indicator of a woman’s fidelity… (Not), after all, the mother has that certainty of knowing she is the mother regardless of who the biological father actually is.
Funny how the very same technology that is routinely used to convict the accused, exonerate the accused or overturn a previous conviction is not allowed to excuse a man from paying 18+ years of child support for some kid who is the product of his wife’s infidelity. The presumption of paternity should have died with Charles Dickens. This is the 21st Century. Family Court needs to change its goddamned calendars.
Your statement like many on here are very generalized. Women are not guaranteed custody in many states. In some, they are not the chosen gender. In many states the outcome is 50/50, and with women’s new found freedom to act like they “think” all men act, gaining custody after the initial 50/50 only takes time and patients. Divorce is a battle and the rules laid by the court are not optional, for either party. As men get wiser to the game, their position has improved in the eyes of the court. The loose free partying wild life style that many women choose to live today while in the midst of a divorce and custody battle has cost them even 50/50 custody. I have witnessed this, participated in this, and given good advice to young men entering this battle with a positive payout for them. Back to the question at hand, there is no foreseeable reason for a man to get married in my eyes at this stage of my life. I have had different views when I was younger, but I can’t remember why I justified marriage or mirage then. It could have been slow brain development.
Really? One can’t be a good parent without being married? So once someone gets divorced they automatically become bad parents?
So are children better off with parents who are married and miserable and can’t stand each other anymore than they are with parents who are not married and happy?
So all parents that are married are miserable and all parents that are not married are ecstatic. Is this what you are saying? Stats please? The earlier point was that married parents were best and there is something to this.
Of course one can be a good parent without being married. But it’s hard, risky, and more probably a failure. It’s also selfish –if it is a condition of choice rather than unavoidable circumstance. For children the best situation is a (female) mom and a (male) dad, in a monogamous (or at least not polyandrous) marriage in a law system that protects such marriage and a culture that cherishes it.
It is a huge problem for the generation without Dads, without being born and raised in such whole marriages that our law system no longer protects marriage to an adequate degree. We have abolished laws against fornication (SEX! without benefit of a license or permit, which includes but is not limited to a marriage license), laws against bastardy (having a child out of wedlock) and perhaps have made divorce too easy.
We definitely have allowed divorce to become a ruination to life after divorce for too many. The divorce problem is like the modern problem with encouraging big loans to the immature and those of bad credit. We encourage entry into a process full of big risks, and then punish many or most of those who follow through on what was encouraged. Our cultural and legal treatment of divorce produces a great bitterness and that scares off many who would otherwise marry, I am sure.
In actually 80% of those who do marry stay married — the high rate of divorce is a result of those who divorce and divorce again. Just like a bad loan problem is a function of a the fraction of the population who borrow badly again and again, so too is the divorce problem a problem of those who divorce again and again.
Why do we embitter our future in so many ways! The children raised in broken families, or to single parents, have great burdens of bitterness that are almost impossible to erase.
I had some reasons for marrying and then I got married a couple of times. I am now out of reasons. At my age I’d rather have a talking frog.
Onlt one reason needed for some of us.
It is immoral to live with a woman and have sexual relations outside marriage.
I realize this is a minority viewpoint in today’s world, but if you have this viewpoint, odds are, you’ll end up with a woman with this viewpoint.
And that betters the odds of a successful marriage. 34 years and counting.
Or you can remain celibate, like me.
No, I can’t. Just saying.
I know of a few men who are celibate in their marriages. It is not their choice. Marriage is no guarantee of sex let alone good sex.
No, you mean “chaste”. “Celibate” means unmarried.
Actually “celibate” and “chaste” are synonymous; both can be used to mean abstaining from sex.
Celibate can also mean unmarried. So can “happy,” “free” and “If that bitch thinks she’s getting her paws on my money, my deer camp or my Porsche, she’s got a few screws loose!”
No, chaste and celibate are not synonyms. Married couple who have relations, and are faithful to each other are chaste. Celibate simply means not having sex. Some marriages are without joy or sex.
Reason #4 for writing poetry: It’s cold and lonely here, a) without you or b) with you.
HH said”
Actually this is a majority viewpoint in today’s world, when I mean majority, I mean the real majority in the non-Western World. In this real world, marrages are entirely political/business contracts that are arranged. Yes, arranged marriages, the only real traditional marriage. Take a look how low the divorce rate is in India or Pakistan. Those places practice real traditional marriage. America only has debased sham marriages that are nothing more than government registered boyfriend and girlfriend. And even then, it only gives the girlfriend benefits and prizes while the boyfriend gets all the punishment.
I am actually a proponent of arranged marriage, and were marriage not such an utter disaster for men in our society, I would be looking to popularize the idea.
Same here, but in this age where absolute volition is the only thing that validates a choice, well, good luck with that. I see no way to bring it about.
Look at how high the rate of honor killings are.
Rather, how low they are.
In America, on the other hand, women are praised for castrating their husbands and throwing the severed penis into the garbage disposal.
Women are also allowed to lie about rape just for fun (see : Duke Lacrosse).
America is not in a position to morally lecture these other countries.
It’s true that marriage is a high risk chance for any man to make in america when looking at it from the perspective of what do I get out of it a marriage is a reflection of God’s love and dedication to the church. He didn’t save us to get something out of us but saved us because he loved us in spite of our faults. That should be the same reason a man gets married.
married men live longer on average and are happier on average.
I keep hearing that. Oddly, I don’t much see it.
I’ve also heard–numerous times–that it is scientifically proven that the bumblebee cannot fly.
Polls and statistics are child’s play. You decide which premise you want to champion, then cherry pick your facts to support the narrative. And as for polls, I recommend Sir Humphrey Appleby’s lecture to Bernard on how polls are conducted [from the 1980s BBC comedy "Yes, Minister." A work of genius on the level of Frasier.]
Completely bogus. That is just a lie that women propagate when they are seeking to swindle a man out of money.
Sort of like the ‘women earn 77% of men for the same job’ lie. Just as bad.
The income disparity isn’t a lie, it’s just not the whole truth (i.e. the disparity is function of not how women are treated differently than men, but how women act differently than men).
Similarly, I have no doubt that married men are happier and long lived, but the untold truth is that divorced men are probably, in general, not as happy, etc.
What about divorced men?
The suicide rate of divorced men is quite high compared to the general population.
Also, the laws surrounding divorce are the only way that men can find themselves under slavery or in debtor’s prison, simply for failing to keep their wives happy at all times. Yes, people think slavery and debtor’s prison have been abolished, but in reality, they are alive and well in America, simply because once a man has ‘displeased his wife’, he is no longer considered worthy of human rights as relates to slavery and debtor’s prison.
No, married men don’t live longer; it just seems that way to them.
Levity aside, I note that there are no reasons being presented here why a man should get married, but rather why he should stay married. The flip side, as many point out, is that whilst man proposes, woman disposes…of the marriage and the man’s assets.
Debunking:
http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.ca/2012/10/the-married-life-expectancy-premium-is.html
There are a few legitimate reasons for a man to get married. There are only 4 that I can think of, and I’m not saying I agree with them.
1. Religion
2. Immigration/green card
3. Specific financial/tax benefits – such as getting access to her social security, for example especially if she dies first. This would suggest you could put off marriage until your early 60s or whatever rules apply to get the benefits. (Of course, at certain income levels there is a marriage penalty in the federal tax code, which would be considered a disincentive if anyone actually thought about that before getting married)
4. She is wealthy or makes more money than the man- The “John Kerry” strategy. This could work especially if you think you could keep some of this money after a divorce but it means don’t sign a pre-nup if you’re the man.
The marriage penalty only exists for income earners well into the six figures. For combined taxable incomes below about $70,000, the tax rates combine linearly.
Look hard enough and I’m sure you can find a good number of women on exhibition around the internet. The popularity of amateur porn has ensured that odds are many women have a record of their escapades for all to see. That’s your marriage pickings folks and no way Jose would any sane guy settle for that. Just imagine their children coming across it one day as well.
Let’s play a game of “name 5 reasons men should run screaming from the concept of marriage.”
1. The single mother- She either spawned the seed of a cad, or pushed the father out of her life, and now you get to pay her bills.
2. The village bicycle- Now that she’s had several dozen bangs from studs, she’s ready to “settle down” and you get to pay her bills. Until she reverts back to village bicycle mode and divorces you.
3. The bitter settler. She spent her most attractive and fertile years chasing guys 3 or 4 notches above her in sexual market value. Now, the ringing of her biological clock is so loud, she’s gritting her teeth and willing to marry you even though you are far below what she feels she deserves. Every day, you will be punished for the Mr. Bigs that rejected her while you pay her bills.
4. The Disney Princess- This woman might be very nice, relatively chaste, and maybe even religious. However, you will be measured by her unrealistic expectations of married life, not by any logical or sane determination of mutual benefit. Your quality as a husband, in her eyes, is entirely dependent on her internal emotional state. So you better keep buttering her up. And you get to pay her bills.
5. The Dr. Jekyll- This woman will purposefully put her best foot forward 90% of the time during the courting stage, and will say all the right things about what she wants out of marriage. But once she has you hooked, you get to find out what she’s REALLY like. And you get to pay her bills. This variant is especially common among “conservative” women you might find in church.
ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON!!!
*standing, cheering, and applauding*
Orion
Number five is, I admit, true to an extent. And more so lately, but I’ve see enough successful marriages coming out of conservative christian settings to believe you are still better off looking for Ms. Right in a church or religious college than you are at, say, a naked luau.
In the end, I think most of those who cannot live up to the words “Till death do us part” do so for the reason C.S. Lewis gave: they never intended to. Ms. Right is the one who means it. Bit of a “No True Scotsman” argument and not much help, but I wish those still looking good luck in finding the one who means it.
However, a widow is usually trustworthy. If she has already demonstrated herself faithful to her first husband and now finds herself a single mother because of his untimely death, there is no reason to doubt she’d be faithful to you, too.
If she is truly faithful to her first husband, she would never become involved with another man after her husband’s death.
Or, after over-working her first utility unit to an early grave, she’s looking for a younger, healthier model.
God have mercy on your soul, for you surely need it. God approves of remarriage after your first spouse dies, and when did I say anything about overwork? Accidents, murder, and diseases that have nothing to do with overwork all claim lives. Marriage is “’til death do us part,” not forever. There is no marriage in Heaven, so don’t try to bind the living to the dead.
I keep wondering about how common #3 is.
I recall reading an Esquire article about ten years ago by an anonymous female author describing her wild sexual adventures from eighteen to thirty-one and how she had found the man-her-dreams and was now about to finally marry and settle down.
That seemed to me to be the apotheosis of the Cosmo Girl/Sex in the City lifestyle wherein young women are told they should dedicate their twenties to a glamorous career and red-hot romance, rejecting all marriage offers and then expect to be swept off their feet by Prince Charming at the precise moment they start to age out of the meat market. The problems with that approach are too obvious to remark upon, among many the brutal (Mother Nature ain’t politically-correct) stats on the freefall drop-off in fertility after age thiry.
I’d say it’s at least moderately common. Off the top of my head, I can think of two young women I know who are constantly chasing after men who are way out of their league, accomplishment-wise. The interesting bit is that I don’t think these women are having wild sexual adventures because they reject most of the offers they get, preferring to pine after the men they can’t have. (And men of accomplishment these days regard most young women as lawsuits on legs, so pump-em-and-dump-em is out.) I suspect these women will be bitter settlers, or bitter non-sexual lesbians, in another ten years or so.
Companionship and children would be reasons good enough for me. But I’m dreaming.
Here’s my story:
I was adopted at birth, but never bonded with my adopted family, from whom I’m estranged. It’s been a secret desire of mine since I was a young man to be a husband and father, to have a wife and family of my own, i.e., my own flesh and blood. That was my dream.
I’m tall, attractive, educated, successful, in my early 40s, and generally have no trouble getting laid. In fact I have more women approaching me for dating/sex than I can deal with, but they tend to be sluts, or married, or older. Finding a sound woman to settle down with to start a family has been extremely difficult to say the least. They simply don’t exist. A large part of my struggle I can attribute to personal concerns about divorce statistics and the devastation caused to men in divorce cases. It’s too big a risk.
I enjoy life and stay active. However, in the last couple of years I’ve noticed the first faint signs of depression and, more recently, genuine despair, which I’m attempting to assuage with alcohol and drugs. I’m not sure how I’m going to deal with the disappointment in the long run.
Companionship and children would be reasons good enough for me. But I’m dreaming.
Here’s my story:
I was adopted at birth, but never bonded with my adopted family, from whom I’m estranged. It’s been a secret desire of mine since I was a young man to be a husband and father, to have a wife and family of my own, i.e., my own flesh and blood. That was my dream.
——————————————————-
Being adopted gives you a blessing and a curse. The curse is not knowing your past. The blessing is not having one. You are free to live your own life and make a name for yourself… instead of being bound to the predictions and expectations of your parents (a foolish quest I tried to follow, failed, and am now ruined by it).
As for your desires to start your own family… this is natural. A good way that society thought up of to harness this in a good way was the institution of marriage. This worked in the past because people back then knew that you had to work together to improve your situation. This is no longer the case and now Marriage has become a suicide pact for men as a result.
Well that was obvious. You say you want a family of your own, but you sure don’t act like it. If you really did want a family, you wouldn’t be chasing married women and prostitutes who don’t charge. Now you’re starting to realize that this lifestyle is a dead-end, and the depression is setting in, so you self-medicate with alcohol and barbiturates. That’s a death spiral. On this course, you’ll be dead in five years from either a DUI accident, an accidental overdose or suicide, assuming some jealous husband or terrible disease doesn’t get you first. Before you decide you want a family, you must first decide you want to live, and turn from the way of death you’re on. Then, before you can start a family, you need to detox: no more drugs, no alcohol for at least a year, and no sex or dating for a year. This detox period will give you a chance to reorient your thinking toward marriage and fatherhood.
The risk of marriage exists. The damage from despair and drug abuse is already real. Take a plunge, man! Live dangerously.
I’ve read through all the reader comments and have seen valid arguments for and against marriage except for one. What the man wants? Not what marriage “provides” you or the risk it creates for you but what does the man want in the situation.
Society has programmed men not to ask for or require anything to be fulfilled except the desire followed by the action to please and serve women. All the valid arguments I mention above seem to be the same programmed auto responses uttered by every married man since the dawn of time. It’s all about expectation (expectations placed upon the man) and the selflessness described above by one gentleman is a one way street.
I was married and am now divorced. What did I learn besides all the down sides and pit falls of the institution? I don’t want to be married. I don’t want children. I don’t want the aggravation, commitment or responsibility of someone else’s thoughts, feelings or actions because they are almost exclusively at the expense of my own. Where is the emotional payoff for me? I’m supposed be satisfies solely by knowing my spouse is happy?
If man is not happy he is told to suck it up/man up and give more because that is what marriage is all about. If the woman is not happy she is told to collect her cash and prizes and find another man that will “make her happy”. Men need to realize that all the reasons men give and hear in favor of marriage are nothing more than an illusion to disguise the truth…it’s all about her her her…has never and will never be about or for you.
Do I get lonely sometimes? Absolutely. But I rather “feel” lonely while surrounded by peace and quiet with my needs met rather that “being” alone with someone laying right next to me while being told my needs are being met.
People forget to distinguish between the sacrament of marriage, which is pure and true, and the legal contract of marriage, which is corrupt and false.
A man and a woman form a union. That union is fully realized in the physical embodiment of their child, who is equally, genetically half father and half mother. Biological parents should raise up and support their child.
There is a reason why Jesus made marriage the highest sacrament in His church. It was to fulfill prophecy. Read Genesis: “God created man in his own image, male and female created he them. . . . Go forth and multiply.” That’s the sacrament.
But in today’s world, with the attitudes of these girls, under this court system, with the terms and conditions of this marriage contract, I can’t think of a single reason for a man to get married. Presumptive paternity, abortion on demand, no fault divorce render the marriage contract null and void. So why get married? It’s only a license for betrayal, abandonment and bankruptcy.
This is a female problem. To the extent that she doesn’t realize it is the extent to which it’s a problem. It’s an attitude problem, and it’s her problem. The only one who is ever going to do anything about it is her.
For men, it’s a legal problem. Men could solve that problem, if they had a mind to do so. It’s very simple. Change presumptive patertinty to determinative paternity. Replace no fault divorce with just cause divorce. Make those changes and you’d be surprised at how fast women come around.
But as long as men are going to pander to women’s medieval fantasies, there’s no hope of that happening.
Change the law. Change the terms and conditions of the marriage contract, if you want to make marriage the sacrament it once was. Otherwise, STF up.
The modern American girl is not worth 50%. She certainly isn’t deserving of presumptive paternity. And no fault divorce, hey, she wants the absolute right to change her mind for any reason or for no reason, why don’t I change her mind for her and just say no?
She offered me sex. I had sex with her. End of story. The problem you people have is that you don’t know rock and roll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqwCko-kzR0
And now she doesn’t like it. I don’t care. Dump your attitude and change the law. Or live as being nothing more than a one night stand. These are your options.
I have an education. I have a job. I have a career. I earn a salary. She has an education. She has a job. She has a career. She earns a salary. Okay, this is equality. She wants to get together and have sex? We’ll meet at a hotel, as long as she fronts half the bill.
That’s true equality, and that’s what she wanted, or at least that’s what she said.
And now she doesn’t like it. I really don’t care. Who is she to me but a debt sink hole? She can buy her own house. And I’ll be happy to sell it to her, for a commission. But marriage is out of the question. I’d rather have the money and the freedom.
The modern American girl cannot grasp that; she’s too wrapped up in herself.
Hey, little girl, go to college. Get a job, build a career. You go, girl! Buy your own house. Sit at home alone with your cat and complain about men.
No man is ever going to have anything to do with you. You’re a spoiled child. Grow up, change the law, or remain the one night stand you are.
And honor the sacrament. It is pure and true. Otherwise, you’re just a bad joke. And not worth the attention of any man. Live with that, and complain about it.
Gawain’s Ghost/Roissy 2012!!!
Rock on, dude!
Because few things are more pathetic than a 40-year-old man going to a bar to pick up chicks.
You meant ‘woman’ in that sentence.
A 40 year old man picking up 25 year old women is both natural and normal.
A 40 year old women who thinks she can be a ‘cougar’ is what is pathetic and against biological realities.
I’m 49 and date girls between 27-32, I’ve been doing that for about 8 years, best decision I’ve made in years. I don’t have any kids nor been married nor want either. You might end paying a bill or 2 for the girl, but in my experience it’s been money well spent. I’m very happy and that’s all I desire.
I will mention here that my brother was in his 40′s when he married a 23 year old. His first marriage, her second.
And since he’s NOT well to do, financially, in not perfect health, diabetes, and her mom and dad built them a house- across the street from them, we all know what he’s getting out of the arrangement, and what he saw in her.
We don’t know what she saw or she’s getting….
It’s been 12 years now. They have 2 kids.
Wait a minute there. Isn’t that the plot of “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”?
You didn’t say what this girl looks like or how she acts. Were both she and her parents desperate for her to be married off? Sounds like an arranged marriage. Old World immigrants?
Reasons:
1. Children — they need to know that mom and dad love each other (even during times when they don’t like each other much) and will always be there together to raise them. The commitment of marriage is the best evidence we can give our kids of that assurance. Certainly not foolproof, but the best assurance we can give.
2. A legal commitment strengthens the confidence that each spouse feels that the relationship will survive long term.
3. It pleases God. Regardless of whether one’s faith is strong or weak, to the extent one is religious at all the affirmation of a relationship before God is a plus.
4. It pleases parents and society. That social and familial affirmation has value. The value may vary a lot, but it is real.
5. It has utilitarian value on a purely selfish level. Most men are older and die younger than their wives. There will be a time of failing health (which may be a short time or may last many years) where a healthy wife is a major advantage.
Stan,
Those are pathetic reasons. It is 2012, not 1965, Stan.
1) Children : They are often used as pawns to sanction the application of slavery and debtors prison onto men. Plus, see my comment #33 : a man can have a child while single, if he wants.
2) Legal Committment? Are you insane? The laws are heavily, heavily rigged against the man.
3) Absurd. How do you know what pleases God? Did he tell you?
4) Similarly absurd. Only the weak live their lives to please the ignorant. Instead, make them accept your choices, through logically making the case.
5) Nope. She will leave and take the man’s money while he is at his earnings peak. Anyone who is worried about ‘being taken care of in old age’ should NOT marry, as divorce inflicted on him against his will will leave him impoverished. A man should save his money and hire professional help in old age, not lose his money to an ex-wife who leaves once his earnings are past their peak.
Toads,
I have no interest in trying to convince you. I was responding to Helen’s invitation to state my reasons and/or legitimate reasons others might have for marriage. My primary purpose in life is to be the best father I can be. I realize that your purpose may very well be different, but that’s my commitment.
You may think these pathetic, but that’s just a reflection on you.
If you had any education or understanding in human history, or the maturity and intelligence to recognize wisdom, I suspect you’d be able to see that others may have reasons that are legitimate — even when they aren’t the same as yours.
Translation : Stan is stumped because I brought up hard realities that clash with his fairy-tale worldview.
Wisdom? You painfully lack it.
Education? You lack that too.
I am sooooo glad that more men are waking up to the reality of how bad a deal marriage has become for them, and are not getting swindled by the likes of Stan.
It is more pragmatic for a man to be a pickup artist today, than to sign up for the lopsided legal contract that is laughably called ‘marriage’.
His advice worked for my marriage. It seems a lot of people like you have little or no experience with people who have been successful with the institution of marriage. I was brought up with the idea marriage was to create a happy family. It really helps if the expectations are the same on both sides of the equation.
Also, women aren’t all nasty and greedy, and men aren’t always honorable, so the generalizations are off. My wife married me in spite of the fact I was only a student, had no money, no car, and only a lawn mowing job. We had all 5 kids before I graduated. It took longer that way, but we are happy we did it that way.
Religion has a large part in that success as well, particularly if both spouses are of the same faith. A church can provide a lot of structure and support for families as well as a path to transmit good family values to the next generation. If you aren’t religious, I don’t know what to tell you.
You have no understanding of human history, otherwise you wouldn’t be promoting love/romance based “marriage” instead of actual traditional marriage (arranged marriage like those practiced in the non-Western world).
I will take apart your argument for ‘merrican style “christian” “marriage”:
American style “marriage” is not necessary to have children. An egg cell costs $3,000-$5,000, hiring a surrogate in India costs ~ $20,000. Having two children will cost ~$50,000. This is far,far, FAAAARRR cheaper than an American style “marriage” and divorce settlements.
American style divorce settlements has made such a contract worthless. If you want real marriage contracts, the third world is the only place where they exist.
I have a hunch that the Hindu Priests, non-Western Christians and the Muslim Imams have a better idea on that than your typical plastic American preacher like Glenn Stanton.
A society that establishes no-fault divorce, vaginamony, and an incredibly corrupt (anti)family court system deserves no pleasing. It deserves contempt. Our parents deserve contempt for establishing these evil laws in the 1960′s and 1970′s.
Others have already demolished this absurd reason. This utilitarian value has been destroyed by divorce and family courts in the US since the 1970′s.
I was replying to stan.
Rocket,
And a superb reply it is. Good work.
Yes God did tell us, through the Bible and through His Church. There are two God-approved lifestyles: marriage and celibacy. You can have sex within marriage, or not at all. Both are virtuous, but sex outside of marriage is a sin against your own body.
And yet this so-called “christian” will make no effort to crush the family judges and the divorce industry. Contrast this to the deeply faithful Hindus, Christians, and Muslims in India who have formed a powerful men’s rights movement that stopped feminist policies (like no-fault divorce) dead in their tracks.
Plastic American “christianity” is such a contemptible hypocritical mess.
dear myth buster,
why do you spend all your time here criticizing good men
while never passing judgment
on the corrupt judges
the corrupt legal system
and the fed-funded feminist movement
which destroys families
and aborts millions?
why do you spend all your time
slaying your brother
instead of praying for him
and setting your sites on larger targets?
unlike you, jesus and moses were not afraid to speak truth to power
but here you are, claiming their mantle
on your high horse
where you make faces at your brothers
and give the vast corruption
a free pass
are you that blind
or just indifferent
to corruption?
why do you never pas judgment on all the publications
that encourage women to fornicate
why do you only target the good men
here who are observing the corrupt system?
do you really consider yourself a christian?
Err, watch out for that huge age-disparity thing.
Don’t assume the young trophy wife is going to play the faithful helpmeet when the elder husband is wearing diapers and blowing spit-bubbles.
Pillow over the face, anyone?
This beautiful/maudlin, insightful song from the 1970′s Broadway musical by Stephen Sondheim, “Company” covers this discussion rather well. The song is entitled, “Sorry-Grateful”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiqiTrMVLdQ
Just turned 54 this past week. Still not married. 24 years ago I was in a relationship that I thought was going in the direction of marriage. There was the joy and happiness of being with someone who wanted to be with me and who cared about me (and we hadn’t had sex – I had actually stopped before we got to that point). I was about ready to suggest that we think about a more permanent situation (not marriage yet, but on the way toward it).
Suddenly, without warning, the switch was turned off. One night everything was just fine. Then, after going to some art fair thing it was all over – went from lover to brother in less than 24 hours. I still don’t understand why. Her excuses were “I don’t like kids” (she never saw what happened when I visited some friends – they would tell their son I was there and he would run to the door to greet me and drag me to his room to play) and “I didn’t like her friends” (I only met three, while one gave me the thumbs up the other two were married to each other and verbally fought like cats and dogs all the time. Being around them sucked.).
While we were dating, she said on several occasions “I don’t need a man to have a child.” Of course what she meant was that once she got pregnant she didn’t need a man. I heard about a year after the “we could still be friends” she had a son (and not married). Since then, every time I date and start to think of a relationship, I suffer a flashback and change my mind.
I’ve heard female friends call men “lying dogs”. I was asked by a female acquaintance why men cheat (not some, but apparently all). Another who constantly says “she doesn’t need a man to complete her.” Another who likes to disrespect men and just says she’s being “sarcastic”. I hear the constant crap from feminazis and femilezzies about the evils of men and that nasty thing we want to stick you know where. I hear of women who go through terrible divorces (yet, interestingly, the same behavior that causes the divorce was okay before they were married, the woman thought she could change him). I know of a woman who, during one weekend, treated her boyfriend like crap, and she doesn’t know why (does she need a reason?). Women complain about us looking at their breasts yet buy bras that lift and separate those puppies. And I know periods are natural but I still don’t care to discuss them.
There are times I wish I were married (my Mom and I have a good relationship, and she lives over 600 miles away). I am lonely (though being an introvert helps tremendously, and alcohol/drugs are not needed for me to cope either). I don’t have many “close friends” (though strangely enough the ones I have are female). I often times feel that my soul is in danger because I’m not married, that I could be a better person if I had a significant other (I guess that would make me the insignificant other).
However, I will live out my life single (which means I’ll be able to retire early in a few years and have plenty of money for retirement).
Ms. turkeybaster really sounds weird. I don’t know what to think of that.
I only know that she must be well and truly punished as such a twisted creature almost certainly raised a son who grew up to be a dysfunctional monster who causes her nothing but grief. Terribly sorry for the kid.
David W: You were lucky. You were in a relationship with a Cluster B woman and you got out of it without marriage or children. I was half lucky: I married her, but I realized right away that I had made a horrible mistake and I got out of it before she got pregnant.
You need to do something to associate yourself with a better class of people. I don’t know what is worse: women who bash on men because they mean it, or women who bash on men just because it’s cool with their friends. A good woman will stand up to her friends that bash on men, or better yet, she won’t associate with women like that in the first place. It’s true: Not All Women Are Like That. Although a lot are, and post-modern feminism encourages it. It takes a woman who is strong of character to stand up to that. Such women are admittedly not easy to find.
1. Youshouldaputaringonit.
After having been married and divorced, I’ll qualify that with a. Separate finances (community property state or not) and b. A pre-nup agreement that specifies i. Each person keeps whatever they have already, with equal division of future common property, ii. (paternity testing of both parents, prevents mix-ups at the hospital as well as paternity fraud) and iii. custody (equal unless there’s cheating, then the cheater loses it). Would ideally like a return to fault divorce, but it’s not likely today.
Sorry, can’t think of four more reasons.
My Ex faulted me for believing marriage was a “commitment” and not a “relationship,” felt I was “missing something” for not being very vulnerable and, after 10 years, Let’s Just Be Friends-ed me for some dude whose newly-Ex wife had been cheating him with two different guys. Fortunately, we had no children and were dividing debt at that point.
Like Silver Surfer (#24 above), I got hit-on by married women a lot and found good women scarce. My Ex seemed to be okay and appreciate what I had to offer at the time. She still doesn’t get why I was annoyed with her rationalization I’d “be better off” (ironically, she was right, but wasn’t her focus then) and why her life with an insecure broke schlub is now worse.
There WAS only one reason for men to enter this legal contract: to guarantee to the women that any children resulted from that union would be raised by both partners and the woman was not left alone with the child. Once with the contraception devices available, the woman is no longer the weaker but has options.
They can raise children together if they both really trust each other without marriage.
I heartily agree with the the sentiments expressed on this subject. There really are no good reasons for a man to get married. Radical feminist induced female narcissism has poisoned the well and it may take generations for the mess to clear, that is if it ever happens at all. I don’t think it will.
Yet one minor detail keeps gnawing at me. Something I heard George Gilder say on a recent “Uncommon Knowledge”. I paraphrase: if the traditional family breaks down then there will have to be vast increase in the welfare state to take care of the women and children, and a vast increase in the prison system to take care of the boys.
It is clear that the traditional family is breaking down. It is also clear that we can’t sustain the current size of the welfare state, let alone vastly increasing it. On the outside, we might be able to hold out under such a scenario for perhaps a generation or two, but it would drain the remaining vitality from the already rapidly depleting moral capital of the West. Ah, the splendors of progressivism!
If these two factors continue on their current trajectories, Western Civilization as we know it, or in any form at all, isn’t long for this world.
One result, though, is a sufficiently devastating crash that returns us to prior social conditions. Male strength and ingenuity might once again become more prized and useful. If so, then women would realize they actually need us and are willing to compromise again. Yet to get to that point requires suffering on a scale we in the West have been immune from for a while now. It won’t be pretty.
That is, by my own limited lights, the *best* case scenario for what the future holds. Any way you slice it though, it just doesn’t look good.
Any thoughts?
I hadn’t noticed the plethora of “jacks” when I picked the handle for the above post. For clarity’s sake, the above post was written by me, heretofore known as “anotherJack”. In case anyone is wondering. I don’t want anyone to take the responsibility for any half-baked notions that are wholly my own.
Right off the top of my head, I can only think of one benefit to getting married.
So your children aren’t bastards.
OK, two reasons.
So you aren’t living in sin.
But mostly so your children aren’t bastards.
But yeah, all the reasons I’m thinking of are for religious or moral reasons.
From a financial point of view, it seems like the worst decision you could ever make.
So seriously, the best reason I can think of is for your children.
Sex once or twice a year?
I’ve been married 36 years, and have 7000+ “hits”. Marriage is a “your mileage may vary” institution. Sex was on my list of reasons for getting married, along with a nice companion and building a family. It worked. Your viewpoint doesn’t represent everybody.
Unfortunately, you are a statistical outlier. A one-percenter, if you will pardon the expression.
Don’t bother me with this, I’m busy watching “The Shining”
This entire question is biased. There’s no question that marriage and family laws and our culture are punitive to men in many respects. That is what it is. The reasons to marry aren’t any different because of that — the trade offs just balance differently. So the question doesn’t make sense. Reasons to marry are what they’ve always been, and many have addressed them above.
And if you want an economic explanation for a social institution, it is that barriers to exit can actually have positive effects on relationship survival.
“Reasons to marry are what they’ve always been”
And almost all of those reasons are subject to change without notice, without cause, and without recourse.
The barriers for exiting a marriage are placed upon men. The gates are fully wide open for women exiting a marriage, collecting £200 as they pas “Go”.
An excellent game to play, as it will force a Socratic approach to comprehending why marriage is a terrible deal for men nowadays.
I should add, if anyone says ‘children’, well, quite a few men are deciding to hire surrogates (which are not expensive in India) and become single fathers. Toban Morrison is a Canadian man who did just that.
http://photogallery.thestar.com/1038282
And unlike single mothers, single fathers are using their own money, not taxpayer money.
Yeah, with the surrogate system in place in India, there is no good reason for a man to get “married” in America.
I just turned 60. My wife and I have been married 33 years. We have had five children, three boys and two girls. Four are grown, fine intelligent young adults; and the fifth is in high school. Marriage and family are best the thing that happened to me.
So, my five reasons:
1. She a good friend and a terrific person (and a terrific cook) and I want to live my life with her.
2. Marriage is declaring in public, before God and man, that we are no longer two, but one. That brings stability to the situation.
3. I want children. And I want them to grow up in a situation that is as certain and stable as anything is in this crazy world of ours.
4. There are tax and financial advantages to marriage – or, at least 33 years ago, there were.
5. It made my family and friends happy, and the party was a *blast*!
Just my $0.02 worth.
This comment is a perfect example of how older people have no conceptual awareness that the actual *laws* incentivize divorce, and that divorce is not an accident, but rather is MARKETED to women, for profit. There is a large industry that profits from increasing the number of divorces.
He things that ‘declaring under God’ is all it takes, nevermind that most Churches have deviated greatly from Biblical marriage (you know, the one that states women have responsibilities too) and are now indistinguishable from what leftist feminists want.
Modern churches differ from radical feminists on no issues except abortion (itself a bogus issue where both sides of the debate are anti-father).
Indeed, I cannot think of any Protestant who will excommunicate those who remarry after divorce. On this matter and on contraception, the Catholic Church stands alone.
Actually, we’re perfectly aware of it. I know good and darn well that my wife could walk out tomorrow and do very well for herself, under the current legal regime. But I judge that the odds of that happening are very low. How so? (1) She’s already had 19 years’ worth of opportunities, including many times when we were financially better off than we are now. If she hasn’t done it already, I don’t think she will. (2) Yes, it’s true: NAWALT. My wife grew up with old-fashioned values and she is strong of character. I have never known her to interact with anyone in an unfair manner, and I have many times witnessed her fulfull a responsibility when it would have been easy to shirk off.
You can look at it as an exercise in risk management: can the risks be mitigated so that the remaining risk doesn’t outweigh the benefits? There are things you can do to mitigate the risks. Pre-nup is one, although you need to very carefully check the laws in your state. Not having children is another — if you know for a fact that you never want children, or if you already have children and don’t want any more, get a vasectomy. Another risk mitigator is finding a good woman. This is admittedly not easy. A good start is to spend some time studying the archives at Shrink4Men, so you can start to learn how to recognize bad women. (This is something that boys should be given instruction in when they are young — I don’t know why we don’t do that. Wait, let me take that back, I do know: feminism won’t stand for it. If you have young male children, take it upon yourself to instruct them in this.) In the long run, mitigation consists of changing laws and the culture, although those are things that will take time and can’t really be done on an individual level.
What you have left is a mathematical relationship: do the benefits outweigh the mitigated risks? (That assumes you have a reasonably accurate accounting of the expected benefits…) It may be that, in your own opinion, they do or do not. Lots of men these days are reaching the latter conclusion. I don’t agree, but I understand how they did the math and came up with that answer.
I sort of agree with Brown Line but with qualifications.
This relates to age – if you are 55 or over and your wife is within 5 years of your age (which is typically the case) then both you and your wife were brought up with the notion that marriage was a partnership with rights and responsibilities on both sides.
50 years ago, starting in “the swinging sixties” the situation changed with contraception freeing women from the need to carefully select their life partner and womens Lib declaring that men were not needed. This tendency has only accelerated over the intervening half century with the result we have seen discussed above.
So, yes, Brown line has a valid point FOR HIS GENERATION but the younger the person is, the less and less that this applies.
One of my friends for along time was considered gay as he was never seen with a woman. Eventually he told us “Every month, I go into a brothel, spend the night there and have as many women as I like. I get rid of my sexual frustration and as I’m a regular and a big spender, the girls treat me well. No headaches, no whining and no refusal of any form of sex. It is cheaper than maintaining a wife and even getting a cleaner in to my home once a week it STILL works out cheaper than marriage with none of the risks”.
You could have heard a pin drop …
I’m 24, my wife 26. Both of us were raised with the picture of marriage you present. Admittedly, I was shown by my older parents (40 when I was born). And she was shown by here grandparents. Marriage is about finding a partner who sees the main purposes and goals of your life in the same way as you. There is a lot of gloomy talk and gloomy generalities on this board. But if you find one, specific woman who realizes the value of love, respect, perseverance, all those generalities go away.
I married in 1963 and I share your World View. Some here in search of 5 reasons have bought into a World View that will never let them find happiness.
Hey, Brown Line. The challenge is to name 5 reasons a man should get married, not 5 reasons why Brown Line is pleased to have already done so.
Thanks for playing.
1) maintenance sex. Yes a single guy can get sex without marriage and marriage can at times ruin regular sex, some women need the marriage commitment for regular, monogamous sex
2) Health benefits. A lot of guys are freelancers earning incomes without benefits. More “female” jobs provide benefits due to womens lobby. Ironically this incentive is dilluted with domestic partners acts which now cover many benefit plans reducing a mans need to marry
3) It can make a man appreciate what he has rather than focus on what he wants. Being single can be a playland but if you’re looking for a long term relationship it can be serial disappointment as you look for a woman who satidfies everything. Marriage can take the focus from finding the perfect woman to being happy with the woman you chose
That’s it! Three is all I got and they could all be argued. ALL the rest are specious at best because they can be attained without marriage – economies of scale, support, teamwork
There are Federal Tax advantages. Income tax if one spouse earns several times as much as the other, there is real savings in joint filing. Estate tax: if the spouses have several million dollars of assets, there can be enormous estate tax savings.
The middle-aged woman who lived next door lived alone. She slipped and fell in the shower. She owned a business but no one came to see about her until she did not show up for work. By that time it was too late. She was dead.
I know you can have someone live with you without being married, but I am glad that I am married. I always wait until my wife is home to take a shower.
I used to teach 6th grade, which included sex ed. I told my students it was more important to find someone that you admired and respected, than it was to find someone who was hot. Some of them are just now getting married. We’ll see how it works out.
Yeah. Remember the “Sex and the City” episode where freewheeling Samantha gets a terrible case of the flu, calls around in desperate need of assistance and her gal pals are all too busy and her many casual paramours couldn’t care less that she needed help?
What happens when, after decades of enjoying the single life, you are now old, sick and helpless and there is no one with any filial obligation to care for you? We all know what the Nanny State’s incentive will be.
The Nanny State’s incentive is so strong that she will simply not notify your wife or kin that you’ve been put on the Liverpool Pathway Protocol.
Sorry to be the bearer of the bad news.
Because a society -without- marriage ends up more like a wolf pack in structure.
It seems like a worse structure than a society that upholds the contract of marriage for anyone that is -not- the alpha male -or- female.
Some of the subcultures seem particularly problematic from the outside when the person ‘in control’ can move on at a whim.
But who knows. Maybe throwing out the first institutions of civilization in the name of ‘open-mindedness’ will bring about a much better civilization. After the child-free generation or ten.
Wolves mate for life. The beta and gamma males and females defer to the alpha couple’s leadership, so they don’t mate when resources are scarce, even as the alphas continue to mate. However, when they mate, they mate with each other, while the alpha male mates with the alpha female. What you’re thinking of isn’t a wolf pack, but rather primates.
Dr. Theodore Dalrymple (Life at the Bottom, Our Culture, What’s Left of It, etc.) has described what life is like for women in modern Western slum societies. A “progressive” society, when law-and-order breaks down just enough to render political correctness unenforceable, becomes mighty, mighty tough on women. No legal protection AND (unlike past centuries) no cultural restraints either.
If you find the right woman, you can find a million reasons to get married. I did, and I did, 24 years ago.
Name 5 Reasons a Man Should Get Married
1) Chidren raised outside of marriage are more likely to be screwed up. And when you get down to it, without children, it’s all kind of pointless. So not getting married (even if you do reproduce) is basically half-assing it.
2) ”
3) ”
4) ”
5) “
The problem with that is that you are saying that there is no degree of unfairness in the law, that you would consider the breaking point.
You have also exposed another politically incorrect reality : that the father is much more likely to put his children above himself, while most mothers will not (and the law currently incentivizes women to use children as pawns for extraction of money for her shopping sprees).
‘Marriage’ is not one thing but four. The first is romantic intimacy; the second is the social declaration of coupledom.
Element number three is the religious or spiritual aspect, which is essential and important for some but not for others.
Some couples don’t get to the public declaration stage; they see their relationship as nobody’s business but their own. Others want and seek that element of social recognition. Perhaps through a secular or New Agey ‘commitment ceremony’. Or maybe, like many couples in France and Belgium, they opt for exclusively religious wedding ceremony where they sign their names only to the Catholic wedding contract – and not to any other piece of paper.
So far, so good. So what’s the problem? Element of ‘marriage’ number four is the problem: the legal or civil marriage contract.
Politicians have transformed civil marriage from a union of two spouses (as social conservatives nostalgically and mistakenly imagine it to still be) into a triangular relationship in which there are not two spouses but three: the couple and, in the role of the third spouse, with the state as the domineering third spouse and head of the household.
The state – in effect, the third spouse – writes the contract; the couple are permitted only to append their names; they have no input into the terms of the marriage contract itself.
The challenge is the develop an alternative legal framework to the 1960s-inspired, politician-created and now in terminal decline apparatus of ‘civil marriage’.
It’s already happening through cohabitation agreements or cohabs. With cohabs, couple and family commitment have found a home in a more welcoming place: the law of contract, the law of making, exchanging and keeping promises. In a sense ‘marriage’ is returning to its roots: you make a promise, you keep it. Simple as. It does not mean you will always stick together, but it does mean you will stick forever to your promises.
In other words, the government is usurping God, for there have always been three parties to marriage, but the third party is supposed to be God.
The way I see it, most of the reasons for a woman to marry can be extracted from her husband by the law and the courts. All of the reasons for a man to marry are entirely at the discretion of his wife.
Wedded Abyss is a succinct 1-page website that best outlines how bad the laws are for men :
http://weddedabyss.wordpress.com/
It explains the difference between Marriage 1.0 (an equitable deal that put the children first) and Marriage 2.0 (which exists to enrich lawyers and cater to feminist misandric zeal).
I can only say for the 33 years, 8 months, and 14 days I had with my wife, it worked, and the good far outweighed the bad.
1) You already have kids and one looks like he may be a star athlete in the future.
2) You work in an old school firm that prefers married men when it comes to plum promotions. (This is a fairly poor reason, as half the resulting financial benefits are effectively shot down an eventual rat hole but an example of short term planning)
3) You are gay and like the closet and there is no roomier walk-in than a sham marriage.
4) You harbor castration fantasies but would never pull the trigger for real. This way, you only metaphorically lose your testicles, but you get to do so every day.
5) You made a promise to yourself that would stop having sex in seven years. Mission accomplished.
My children were born when I was married to their mother. They only became bastards later.
I have two cats and two dogs. Life is good.
I am reading a bunch of whining cases of men that didn’t choose their wives very well.
No need to be a white knight here trying to insult your fellow man. Many men thought they chose well when they married or found out later that the woman they married was not right for them. So what? They have a right to discuss it and talk about it and that is not whining. This blog is here to help those men find a place to discuss these issues. If this bothers you, perhaps you should find a place where belittling others is seen as “manly.” Because here, your insult is seen for what it is: your own discomfort with men being open about how they feel.
Dr. Helen,
I can’t speak for Mr. Cranium above, but imagine what those of us who accidentally click on one of Instapundit’s (i.e. you husband’s) links to your posts (like this one) see in the comments when they arrive here. It really is rather surprising – almost shocking in fact. There’s a level of strong and consistent negativity towards marriage, relationships, and women that I’ve never encountered anywhere else.
Perhaps you should ask your husband to not link to your posts so that you don’t get trolls like myself and Mr. Cranium. Then y’all can disparage women and marriage in peace.
er…. does Bret realize that Dr. Helen is a woman. Who is he to tell her what she can say about women.
I note that both Richard Cranium and Bret cannot address the crux of the issue here, and are trying to change the subject because it raises realities they would best not like known.
If Western Society makes it unattractive for men to marry, Western Society will deservedly die. It is that simple. It is weird that people either ignore this, or insist that it is still ‘attractive’ for men when men themselves are seeing the fact that it is not.
“If Western Society makes it unattractive for men to marry, Western Society will deservedly die.”
Toads-
You are absolutely correct. Civilization may very well be brought down by the intellectually incoherent denizens of women’s studies departments. That what the King of England, the Civil War, the Soviets, the Nazis etc were unable to do will be done by some half-wits who won’t shave their armpits is irony of the highest order. Without even firing a shot!
Western men, to our eternal shame, have capitulated to feminism in hopes of keeping the peace. Feeding the crocodiles, hoping they will eat you last. Perhaps if EVERY man in the West stopped tacitly agreeing to women’s irrational demands there might be some productive change. That would require active, not passive, resistance. Calling them out on their nonsense, regardless of the cost.
Of course it would be completely miserable, because as we all well know most women are effortlessly destructive and vindictive to a degree bordering on insane. Nonetheless, the current path is unsustainable. With all due respect to the good work of Dr. Helen, “Going Galt” may not be enough.
Bret:
Many of us seem to find it very refreshing to “meet” a woman who’s willing to listen to men discuss our view of how we’re treated in our society (or what’s left of it.) There are a few good women left in America and she’s one of them.
Unfortunately the real sociopaths are all too good at maintaining the mask of sanity and charm for however long it takes to bag their quarry.
Holds equally true for male or female. All those classic abuser stories began with Prince Charming sweeping her off her feet then only becoming a controlling and abusing monster after the honeymoon.
I don’t see that advising people to choose their life partner carefully is being a ‘white knight’. It merely reminds them that they are free to say ‘no’ and that they have a personal responsibility for themselves.
It also is a plea to spare us from people’s personal problems — many more people break up marriage/relationships quietly than there are hard-done by drama queens who at some point chose to marry/bond with a narcissist for their own vain reasons and then tediously complain on every chat forum about the inevitable and predictable outcome.
People like that do the MRM no favours, and btw, the WRM has exactly the same archetype kicking around, poisoning the debate in exactly the same way.
How many men willingly and knowingly marry a bitch? Life is a crap shoot. Sometimes you win and sometimes you don’t.
The truth is that if she’s pretty enough (and still young) there will be plenty of men lining up to marry her no matter how ugly and offensive her personality is. A sad fact of human existence. I’ve seen it happen.
Because Saturday night becomes Sunday morning and it is undignified to be “oldest guy in the club”.
Because you want to start a family, if the others ways of doing this are offensive to your religious or moral beliefs.
Because there are women out there that still believe in the marital bond, and will honor their vows in sickness and in health. Believe me, my wife has been a source of strength to me when things have gotten bad, and I did not get that from live-in girlfriends.
The traditional benefits exist, laundry, good cooking, child rearing etc., but has been driven underground out of the media/hollywood/academic eye. These actually still exist, no *really*! Not usually available to the hit-it-and-quit it types or from part time girlfriends.
Because not every woman is a herpes infected bear trap gold digger poised to strike at your bank account. Some might actually be interested in getting old with you and still love you when you get wrinkled and crotchety and lose your game. These women of quality are looking for MEN of quality.
Seems like a silly challenge.
It’s rather like “Name 5 reasons to paint the walls of your house blue”.
Just as I rather like blue, I rather like being married. In other words, there’s no reason for it, it’s subjective.
The blue paint costs money, it’ll fade over time, it might chip, peel and crack, and the house might burn down, but in the meantime, I’ll enjoy the blue walls.
Um….. huh?
In the experience of men that I trust (I’m young), the paint gets better with age. I think most of anti-marriage posters on this thread would say the paint is made with lead and you’ll get cancer when you get rid of your paint (divorce).
I hope that was a good exercise in metaphor.
Marriage increases the probability you will get visitation rights.
I feel so much sadness and such pity for the majority of the commenters, but none more than those who can only denigrate the good reasons giving. How sad and pathetic life would be without my wonderful wife. I suspect I’d be bitter too.
And yet you say nothing about America’s evil divorce and family court system.
Yes, the Legal System leans towards the woman’s best interests. But the system it replaced was also pretty harsh. If you mistreated or abandoned your wife or child then her father or brothers made a visit. Wasn’t it Sony in Godfather that set the standard for pre 1960 laws on divorce or bad husbandry?
So everybody was a gangster before 1970′s womens lib? Yeah, right. I notice that you are unwilling to tackle the actual cause of the breakdown of the American family.
Unlike you however, men in India, solid upright religious men in India, has taken the fight to the feminist enemy.
dear jeff,
why do you not direct your bitterness at the divorce industry and central bankers who created feminism to destroy the family?
do you not care about the family?
should you not do something to save it?
or do you just feign caring?
It is truly a shame that you are a sad and pathetic mangina who needs another person (Man or woman) to prevent you from being, well… sad and pathetic (this is essentially the inference contained within your own words). The single Man typically stands strong; comfortable in the security of His deep Masculinity — because He understands fully what His Masculinity means to Him on a singular and personal level. Therefore, he doesn’t require other people to “complete Him”; nor will He ever be guilted to take subservient action and throw Himself into the gears of the marriage machine just because the government, a weakened Western culture, or a gaggle of cackling hags (manginas included) think that marriage makes Men less cowardly, angry or bitter (read: “code-words of feminist guilt”).
Real Men….. Men who have fought wars, built society, formed nations, created wealth and have sacrificed themselves to protect women from the most heinous evils of society…. they do not need a woman to pull them up to the ledge of legitimacy. These Men have always relied upon their own inner strength, inspiration, genius and logic. They, thankfully, have never known the sadness or self-flagellation that you, apparently, admit suffering from.
I tell my Son, 19, to never get married or he will almost certainly someday be stripped of all of his possessions by force of law on a mere whim of his lovely wife.
I tell my Daughter, 24, not to get married to anyone foolish and stupid enough to expose himself to her whim, or to the unbalanced vagaries of the legal system.
I do think that they will take my advice.
I’ve been married 18 years and have 2 kids.
I really don’t see what all the fuss is about. My wife and I are equal partners in this. We’ve been through a ton of shit in our short lives so far and have always been there for each other. It is not necassarily easy, but it isnt hard either.
I can also see that what I have isnt as common as it should be. But what I do see is a bunch of spoiled children who need to grow the F up and learn how to act like adults. Here is an idea: when you make a promise: f$@#ing keep it. So that little bit about ‘until death do you part’ think about it before you actually sign the contract. It goes for both sides.
Here is an idea: when you make a promise: f$@#ing keep it.
What an ignorant and small-minded comment.
For one thing, you fail to hold women to the same standard of accountability that you want to hold men to. That means you don’t think women are as capable as men. That makes you a misogynist.
Another (much smarter) commenter correctly stated that what a wife gets out of marriage is enforced by the state (and even paid out to her if she wants to leave the marriage), but what a husband gets out of marriage is entirely at the wife’ discretion.
Ridiculous people like Jake are OK with that.
I can’t speak for Jake, but my response is “find a woman that can F@&%ing keep a promise.” We can talk all day about the costs and incentives of marriage and divorce. Find somebody who is internally driven to make marriage work. Somebody who’s places greater costs for failure and greater incentive for success on themselves than society has put on them.
dear jake,
should not your comments be directed at women?
after all, 75% to 85% of divorces are initiated by them, as they are promised cash and prizes and fornication for destroying the family.
jake, why do you not take up preaching to women, so as to better the world?
That’s the problem. It DOESN’T hold for “both sides”.
Jake did say the part about keeping a promise applies to both sides.
Unfortunately, the courts do not share Jake’s principles.
If you believe in Christ as your savior, then getting married is the way to enjoy the marriage bed, have children and have life long companionship with your wife. Of course, this is a fallen world, so many don’t believe in Christ and thus don’t feel the same pangs of conscience if they have sex and even children outside of marriage. Even those who do believe find it all to tempting to try for the benefits of marriage without the responsibilities. And even if you believe and are married, the specter of divorce can still loom as it takes two to tango, so when you think you will have life long companionship, guess again.
What depressing reading this thread is.
Depressing? Sort of.
Informative and factually accurate? Certainly.
Men don’t exist just to be ATM machines for women.
“Men don’t exist just to be ATM machines for women.”
Ann in L.A. has realized that and finds it depressing.
Yes Ann, it is really depressing that more and more men are unwilling to be your ATM.
Yes Ann, it truly is depressing.
Men are getting wise to the devastation that men can experience from a marriage gone bad and no longer are willing to take that chance.
The best, and really the only acceptable reason, is that he meets and falls in love with a sane woman. They are extremely rare.
That’s not intended as a slam on the ladies as a sex, but simply the reality of the results of feminism.
Oh, and I got mine, thank God.
Marriage is desirable if you want to have kids. It is well-known that stable two-parent families are necessary for kids to grow up psychologically healthy. The issue is to find the right woman.
Marriage is optional for those who do not want to have kids. The “couples life” can be quite rewarding with the right woman. However, I think it silly to push people who do not want kids into getting married if the might be happier not doing so.
When I read Dr. Helen I have to ask most of the responders in threads like this – What’s the weather like on your planet? ‘Cause it ain’t the one I inhabit. In less than a year, my wife and I will celebrate our 40th anniversary. I read many of these blog entries out of concern for our son. But I think he’s found a keeper who thinks the same way about him. Her parents will also celebrate their 40th next year. Upbringing matters. I also read about your woes, and the causes of same, to help our daughter become a woman I can be proud of, who resists pernicious societal/peer pressures. I wish you all the best, but I think your lives are missing a dimension and I am sorry for that.
chuckR is another person who has lived in a cave for the past 40 years, and has no idea how much the reality and legal system has changed…
I bet he would be surprised to know that a lot of women nowadays have 10+ sexual partners before demanding a provider formerly called a husband.
ChuckR strikes me as the sort who wins the lottery and concludes that everyone who didn’t weren’t as clever a lottery player as he was.
1. So he can be forced to become celibate, not by his choice, but by hers. Women are not stable people.
2. See #1
3. See #1
4. See #1
5. See #1
But thats just my 2 cents. 50+, single and loving it.
Never been married, working on our third decade with the Better Half.
When we were both earning well, it would have cost us over $4000 per year to file a joint return. Instead, we went to Fiji, Italy, Honduras….
As part of our employment, we’ve both managed people. And, sooner or later, when you manage people, you manage a nutjob. And managing a nutjob can be very expensive — both of us know several people who have been sued and lost a lot of time and money fighting the case — when it really boiled down to “my manager was mean to me, he wanted me to be productive and wouldn’t coddle me.” If we had been married, a single nut working for either one of us could have ruined both of our lives.
I wanted a home and family. The most wonderful time of my life so far was when my wife and I had two kids in high school, 2 dogs, 2 cats, and a mortgage,
Very interesting discussion. Here’s mine.
1. It’s a sacrament.
2. Someone to grow old with. (Ie, sleeping with Grandma.)
3. For society, to engender young-uns who will make enough to pay the social security of you singles. And to eventually to turn blue states red.
4. To raise kids and spoil grandkids.
5. And as to the sex part, I quote a sign in my aunt’s kitchen: “Kissin don’t last. Cookin do.”
Only a woman would make a list like yours. Note that none of this is a very good deal for the man.
1) Sacrament? Where were you when the laws were rigged to increase the number of divorces by catering to the whims of the short-term oriented, less intelligent gender?
2) Does not require marriage. The wife usually leaves when the husband’s earnings potential peaks so as to maximize her payout.
3) Hispanics outbreed you, AND vote Dem. States are only turning blue, idiot.
4) But since the father is not allowed to have contact with the kids once the wife decides she wants to have another man (but still the money of the husband), a man is not guaranteed this.
5) Oh my god. Note how this woman rationalizes how cutting off the husband sexually is OK. My god.
Oh, and ‘cooking’ is a skill modern women do not possess. Most men are better cooks than women nowadays…
I notice you didn’t mention that the laws are preposterously unfair to men. Just how you like it. Too bad for you, men are finding this out.
Your list reveals a pathetic lack of understanding of why men are wisely choosing not to marry and become pickup artists instead.
Following your logic men ought to push for the ratification of the ERA. Once that amendment is in place equality becomes a swinging door. Probably not what the feminist had in mind.
Marriage is a sacrament whether society treats it as such or not. What does that make adultery, fornication and wanton divorce? If you said “sacrilege,” then you’re right.
That’s no reason. If somebody told you that the one who dies with the most sacraments wins, she played a trick on you.
That’s ridiculous, because if that were so, those laws wouldn’t apply equally to women. The fact is that the Torah says if a man has sex with another man’s wife, kill them both.
Marriage is a social convention and a legal issue. I’ve lost my respect for both, for the most part. I can have it all on MY terms thankfully.
If the majority of these comments were made into a book it would be titled “Cynical”.
If the liberal policies over the last 30 plus years were intended to destroy the family and have it viewed as a futile endeavor they’ve exceeded beyond all their expectations. First they destroyed the black families with welfare. Next on the radar, the rest of us with Feminism, no fault divorce and gay marriage.
Indoctrination in our schools, activist judges and liberal legislatures can all be changed but only if we become an active citizenry again… or we can just let them win.
I theoretically agree with the commenters who have come up with some good reasons for a man to marry (children, economy of scale, moral sex if you are religious, companionship, a shared history) but the problem is that the misandric divorce laws in the U.S. make it impossible for a man to ensure that his marriage will work this way. What options does he have to bring a misbehavin’ wife back into line? None. He can’t threaten to leave her if she withholds sex, for example, because she’ll make out like a bandit if he does leave. His hands are tied. He might get lucky and end up with a good woman, but the whole thing only works so long as she plays along. If she runs amok, he’s out of luck.
He can drag her to his pastor and let her hear that she is in rebellion against God. He has a right to have sex with her, and she has no business taking Communion if she is not fulfilling her marital duty, and this does go both ways. Denying sex to your spouse or maliciously undermining your fertility is a form of cheating every bit as much as having sex with somebody else.
The trouble is that:
(a) most Pastors now have swallowed the feminist kool aid and preach feminism not the gospel.
(b) if the woman refuses to repent, she will be supported by the churchian sisterhood, and the husband shunned.
I tell my boys not to date or go out with anyone from North America. NZ women are just as feminist, but we have less fascist laws.
Well, I am 54 and have been married for 34 of those years. The reasons I see are:
1. She completes me. Yeah, I know it is corny. Still, a man needs a woman for fulfillment. Call it God or call it Evolution, the joyous people I know tend to be married.
2. Children. We have two beautiful daughters, both now over 30 and happily married and kids of their own.
3. Grandchildren. We have 4. Probably all we will get buy unless you have grandchildren you have no idea just how much pure unalderated fun they are.
4. To have someone who is ON YOUR SIDE. Right, wrong or somewhere in between, there is one person to count on to be on YOUR side. Supporting you. Defending you. Loving you.
5. To have someone to grow old with. As you age, you will find that being able to look forward to having someone to age with is kinda nice.
I got a few more, but those 5 are reason enough for me.
PS, almost forgot, didn’t I read somewhere that married people tend to live longer? Surely that counts for something.
Its all up to the individual whether conventional marriage is a good or bad idea because we all aren’t wired to crave the constant companionship and responsibility marriage offers. We all don’t want kids, or need financial support, or enjoy the sharing of all the minor details of life with a woman/man that marriage requires.These things are the reasons it exists so if they appeal to you then all the cynical crap is irrelevant. Remember Schrodingers Cat guys, you have to Play to Know, one way or the other.
As soon as we married my wife quit her regular job to go on a voyage of personal self-discovery as an “entrepreneur.” Ten years later, I’m paying all the bills *and* cooking all the home-cooked meals, while she continues to loaf. When she’s not making suggestions about how the meals I cook could be more “healthy” (i.e., tasteless), that is.
For me, getting married was a huge mistake. I tied myself to a gigantic boat anchor. I now live that life of quiet desperation, and pray for an early death.
I despise women.
Preach on, Brother Patrick!
Dang! Late to the party as usual.
I can’t come up with 5 good reasons, but I can come up with two, although they’re kind of intertwined.
1) As an expression of faith- Faith that you’ve found a life mate, a partner to share life’s joys and travails with, living as a family as normal humans in normal human societies have lived for thousands of years now.
2) As an expression of hope- How much is peace of mind worth? What is the price of satisfaction? If you get married, you get both those things, mostly secure in the knowledge that despite current fads, you have achieved a union that is (still) optimal (oooh, bad word to use, courtesy of Obama and John Stewart) for raising children and passing some material wealth on to them, rather than just half your genetic identity.
Note that both of these reasons are nebulous, emotionally laden, and very fragile- All it takes is a does of divorce papers to completely trash both these reasons.
But if you want to play the game, you have to have some skin in it. Having kids and not getting married works great, until the girl dumps you and her new boyfriend is beating your kids regularly. Then, not so well.
Having kids and not getting married works great, until the girl dumps you and her new boyfriend is beating your kids regularly. Then, not so well.
You seem to be under the misconception that ‘marriage’ does one iota to prevent this exact situation.
It does not. In fact, the divorce laws are designed by feminist to ensure that it is easy for a woman to do exactly this.
If you think marriage shields a man and his children from this, you are sadly, sadly mistaken.
Toads, you seem to be under the misconception that marriage is a guarantee of poor treatment at the hands of an evil woman.
If you think that, once children are part of the relationship, that they are better off without a father, (in the sense of their father, married to their mother), you are sadly, sadly, clueless.
The whole gist of Dr. Helen’s post is that marriage nowadays has few good points for the men. I get it. Really.
What never ceases to surprise me is the cries of victimization. I mean, my God, its like a dorm full of guys popping estrogen pills.
“OH MY GOD! Man, don’t you know what will happen if you get married????? She doesn’t really love you. She’ll stop having sex with you after she’s had X number of kids, most of whom won’t be yours, you stupid cuckolded moron! And then, she’s gonna DIVORCE you! And she’ll get child support and alimony totalling 110% of your take home pay, and not have to pay any taxes on it. For the rest of her life! She won’t let you ever see the kids, and the family court system will provide uniformed police security 24/7/365 to ensure that you don’t get to see them, especially while she’s banging her new drug addict biker boyfriend. Then you’ll get sent to jail for not paying child support, and your kids will hate you.”
Look. The system sucks. Men are expendable now, in different ways than they were expendable 100 years ago. If you’re reading this, you already know that. So what are you going to do? If you have the biological imperative to pass on your genes, you can either find the best woman you can, have faith and hope for the best (like I said above) and stay married as long as you can, hopefully til death do you part. Or you can do a modern caveman impersonation, and get multiple lower quality women pregnant, and be an irresponsible player asshole baby daddy.
Either course of action will pass on your genes to the next generation. Which one has the best chance of passing your genes on to subsequent generations? What is your ultimate goal? If you’re looking long term, then, unfortunately, your best bet is to bite the bullet and attempt marriage. If it works out, you win big. If it doesn’t work out, you’re pretty well screwed. That’s the rules of the game. Whether or not you play is up to you. If you’re going to play, you just need a little faith and hope.
The whole point of looking “Long Term” is that it provides you benefits. Like the Ant and the Grasshopper.
Your “Long Term” is a life of misery and then death. Then your grandchildren have a great time.
Who cares about that?
Family courts in most jurisdictions — like California — effectively re-write pre-nups — to the point that most pre-nups aren’t worth the paper they’re drafted on.
Provisions that safe guard the male’s assets are simply voided — with female judges calling all of the shots.
There is now a considerable body of case law on such matters, so it matters little what wrinkles your attorney spins your way.
Further, alimony, wrapped in a child support costume, lasts decades.
I know of a few fellows who are unable to earn above-the-table wages: the state is looking to put them in prison because their incomes collapsed after divorce.
This meant that they were living out of their cars/ under a tree — for months at a stretch. Further, their employers, knowing of their situation, gouged them by shaving 30% off of their market-rate pay — while also leaving them with no contributions towards Social Security/ IRAs, etc.
Needless to say, they were flat broke and sure to stay that way.
So, the State picks up her child support tab, anyway.
————
These provisions are overwhelmingly applied racially: that is — only to WHITE husbands.
Mexicans just head back to Mexico. Many a Black cad didn’t have a ‘straight’ job to start with, but in any event, the courts don’t exact much: state supported single Black mothers are considered a normal thing.
Yeah — it’s wildly racist.
———–
Also left unsaid: a hitched woman feels free to let her weight blossom to manetee norms. Some are so huge that conventional sexual geometry is no longer possible.
———–
Beyond that, women — in their core being — can’t respect, nor love, a powerless man.
Yet, that’s what the family courts have created.
This, then, is creating the new demographic: Bastards.
Bill and Barry show us what that may bring.
( Barry’s father ( take your pick ) was a bigamist. Legally, the spawn of bigamy is a bastard, a common law that goes back 1,000 years, plus. )
For more on the evils and travails of a bastard: see King Lear — by Shakespeare.
The immortal bard covers all the bases.
1) Intimacy – someone who knows you better than anyone else
2) Shared experience – do things together share the memories
3) Regulation – stops men from indulging in their worst habits
4) Economic diversification – two jobs reduce the risk of being without income
5) Social status – marriage is a higher status state for both parties than living together or being single
‘The worst habits of men’? That is pretty bigoted.
Do women not have bad habits?
In reality, women need to be controlled much more so than men, for a society to function. All traditional cultures knew this, and the devolution of modern women under the freedom provided by ‘feminism’ is further proof of this.
Note that those are all valid reasons for a woman to marry. Especially true for the never-ending fun of #3! (well, fun for her….)
Wow! Sounds like a lot of angry & disappointed men out there. I have been married for 32 years, more “better” than “worse.” And my husband thanks God every day for me and tells me every day how much he loves me and how glad he is we are married.
A lot of you are telling younger men not to marry. But what can we tell young women about how they can be the type of woman who makes marriage truly “worth it” for a man? In churches, many girls are learning from Proverbs 31: “A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life.” A lot of wisdom in those ancient words!
Yes ma’am! Much wisdom in those words. And those ladies are far more rare than rubies, too!
In my experience, this kind of thing is a source and reinforcement of the baseless pride (often in contradiction to reality) that contemporary women often possess. They don’t see it as a directive to _become_ that kind of person, they see it as a pronouncement of what they, innately, are. BIG difference for the husband.
1. someone who will have your back and will look out for you even at the expense of their own interest
2. To give you the experience and structure of family
3. Someone who knows your thoughts and feeings and yes even your bullshit
4. someone to hold hands with in your golden years
5. The willingness and optimism that all of the above are true and and will continue to be means everything that marriage is about
chchch, you give good reasons for women to marry. But the thread asks why men should marry. Please allow me to help.
1. someone who will stick a shiv in your back and will look out for their own interest even at your expense.
2. To give you the experience and structure of visitation “rights” to your own children.
3. Someone who knows your thoughts and feelings and won’t hesitate to use them against you.
4. someone to inflict celibacy upon you or considers the twice a year she gives you to be manna from heaven in your married years.
5. The dementia and self-delusion that all of the above are true and and[sic] will continue to be means everything that marriage is about
FIFY.
FOR:
1. Religious reasons. Believers shouldn’t fornicate.
2. Children. We need them and they need as stable a family as we can give them.
3. Society. Every marriage is a step against the breakdown of Western civ.
AGAINST:
You have to marry the modern American female. May God help you; you’ll need it!
Again, at 34 years and counting, it is still possible to have a successful traditional marriage in today’s culture. Both the man and the woman have to want it, and understand what it means before taking the plunge.
And, even though not addressed here, reading all the comments firms up my decision to oppose SSM, because it destroys the fundamental meanining of marriage. As have all the other “innocuous” changes that have brought about the situation today that most commenters here are yelling and screaming about. The changes that cannot be foreseen by changing fundamentals are almost always bad, and the bad changes that can be foreseen always worse then predicted.
No fault divorce- Great idea. No woman (and it was always put as a woman) should be trapped in an unhappy marriage. So, now, at the drop of a hat- “I’m unhappy, I’m leaving, good-bye and thanks for all the fish.” Turns out not to have such a great idea.
Declaring that single motherhood was the same as widowhood. Daniel Patrick Moynihan warned against that policy even as it was being implemented. Turns out he was right. If you subsidize something, you get more of it. If I were dictator I would end AFDC cold turkey, and return to Aid for Widows and Orphans. That right there would strengthen marriage.
Presumption of paternity in these days of DNA testing should be done away with as a concept at divorce time. DNA tests for child support should be required as a matter of law in every single case that goes before a court. Without exception. Perhaps even for all births- but I’m not willing to go there yet. Suspicious husbands can get children tested if they want. No need to get the state involved here. I wouldn’t have with mine- but I have been told my children are clones.
Next, child custody. I am actually in agrement with the presumption that the female is the default partner for custody of children, unless the children object, or the mother can be proved unfit. However, that’s not “fair”, as if there were a fair way. I’d go with this: The partner initiating the divorce loses custody of the children unless the other partner agrees to give up custody, or can be proved to be unfit. And false charges of child/sexual abuse in a divorce case should meet with mandatory jail time. Including jail time for the psychiatrist/psycholgist/child welfare worker who backs up the charges.
And, child support. Ah, the real stickler. Should the children suffer financially because of a divorce? Of course not. Should they be able to continue living in the lap of luxury should it be a rich couple’s divorce? Nope. Minimum child support: 25% for one child (33% > 1 child) of gross income of the non-custodial parent, up to a MAXIMUM of 80% of the average annual income for individuals (not couples or families) in the non-custodial parent’s state of residence. You should have to provide for your children, but there’s no need to give them more then a middle class lifestyle. No spousal support for partners who initiate divorce. (Unless the pre-nup says so.)
As for young people getting married today, too many are making the same mistake that young people were when I got married. They don’t actually know their spouse to be.
Pre-cana, or pre-marital workshop. Should be required by law before a marriage license is issued. Even wihtout it, Question One a prospective husband should ask and answer- Do you want children? If both say no, run, don’t walk, to the nearest attorney for a “Massey Pre-Nup”. (and think strongly about “WHY?” you want to get married while you are driving to the attorney’s office.) If she says no, you say yes, just walk away and find someone else. Don’t try to change her mind. If she says yes, you say no, reconsider your answer before walking away. If you both say yes, continue down the list.
Every marriage I have personal knowledge of that failed before children entered the picture or while the children were still young had warning signs before the couple ever said “I do.” If your parents and friends are telling you “No” find out why- don’t dismiss them. And very marriage I know of that ended shortly after the last child flew the coop ended because the husband was a cad, and the wife stayed with him because of the kids. I KNOW there are exceptions to this- I’ve just not known any.
Some other not actually hard and fast rules, but usually so. If you met your prospective spouse in a bar, they are not going to turn out to be non-drinkers. I know that sounds silly- but- I know one girl who wanted a non-drinker for a husband who met all her future husbands in a bar. She’s on #3. If you’re a 6, your prospective wife a 10, get that Massey Pre-Nup regardless of how good the pre-cana shows you’ll be as a couple. Your income is way above what she can expect on her own. She may have fudged on some of her answers… I’m sure you can think of some other rules to put in there.
The STATE doesn’t prevent couples from having a goood marriage. As the rules currently exist, they do make the marital break-up extremely unfair for males. Which makes it easier for a less committed to female to give up and walk away. The standard vows include the words “for better or for worse”. Sometimes there is a spot of worse before it gets better. If you walk away, you’ll never know.
That’s way more then my 2 cents worth.
81. HH
“Again, at 34 years and counting, it is still possible to have a successful traditional marriage in today’s culture. Both the man and the woman have to want it, and understand what it means before taking the plunge.”
Well, HH. Perhaps you got married before the massive buttcocking and desouling of women took place.
Let the dead bury the dead, HH. For your world is no longer the world we live in. your lackadaisical “ho-hum” attitude created the world we live in, as liberty requires eternal vigilance, and you were just too self-satisfied to pursue your own happiness, never thinking about the societal decline that surrounded you, and that your children now inherit.
No priest or deacon should marry you if you get a prenup, because doing so invalidates the marriage.
As for DNA testing, I do support mandatory DNA testing at birth because of the child’s right to know his or her own family medical history.
Which means, of course, that you think anonymous sperm donation should be outlawed, because you support mandatory DNA testing at birth because of the child’s right to know his or her own family medical history.
Which is impossible to do if donors are anonymous and don’t have DNA on a government record…
Why wouldn’t I want sperm donation banned? It’s nothing but male prostitution designed to enable a woman to have a child with someone other than her legitimate husband. I’m as against it as I am against female prostitution. Actually, moreso, because at least female prostitution normally involves natural copulation, whereas this monstrosity consists of all manner of unnatural acts. Besides which, the industry presents an appearance of legitimacy, rather than admitting that they are nothing but pimps dealing in male prostitutes. Disgusting.
SMASH the family judges and divorce lawyers first before bitching about sperm donations and surrogates. You fake plastic “christian”.
Rocket, for the last time you cannot justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. I addressed a specific point that was raised; that does not mean that I in any way condone what the family courts have done. What you are doing is no different than those who accuse Jesus of condoning homosexuality because He didn’t directly condemn it.
I’m not a canonist, but I believe you’re claim is not fully correct. If and only if the prenup provides for disposition of assets upon death (the example commonly given is the case of a widowed person who has children from the prior marriage and wants to protect those children’s inheiritance) then it might not invalidate the marriage. If one is blessed with enough assets for such to be a genuine concern, pay a canonist to advise your lawyer who draws up that prenup and give a written opinion on its acceptability.
True, but I was speaking of a prenup that deals with divorce, which is what was at issue here.
I notice that all the people who are pro-marriage are giving very nebulous theoretical reasons, and appear to be in pathological denial that there is a legal regime that invalidates these reasons.
As Socratease above said :
The way I see it, most of the reasons for a woman to marry can be extracted from her husband by the law and the courts. All of the reasons for a man to marry are entirely at the discretion of his wife.
None of the intellectually cowardly people on this thread have any answer to this airtight and logically devastating sentence.
“My wife is a saint, so logically every other woman in the Western world is just as virtuous”
Yes, we get it, stable environment for the kids, love and affection, combined income, support through the rough times, company in old age, blah blah blah blah. All of which can be withdrawn without warning, without cause and without recourse.
Imagine buying a car, and the dealership was allowed by law to repossess the vehicle on a whim, regardless of whether or not you paid the bills on time. And to top it off, you still had to keep making the monthly payments anyway. Who would want to deal with such a business? Just because they haven’t repossessed your car yet doesn’t erase the fact that half of their customers have been fleeced.
How long would a car dealership stay open that did this? Would anybody ever by a car from them? Find a “dealership” that wants and is willing to work for your repeat business.
I agree with another commentor but I’ll give you what I consider to be valid reasons:
1. To have and raise one or preferably more children. Being a Dad is in and of itself enough of a reason – need 5, well keep having kids. (Yes things can go wrong but assuming you’ve managed to marry and create a child you have a valid reason even if you wind up without your wife for any of a few reasons later.)
2. Lifetime companion committment. Note a committment and what actually happens may differ, but the desire to grow old with someone is a valid reason.
3. Safe Sex. Again there is no guarantee of this, but if the contract operates as expected there is an expectation of this.
4. Extended family support. This operates at many levels and in many cases one partner brings a stronger family to a relationship, but both parners gain not only each other but their family.
5. Ability to function as a committed team. If you think it’s tough to get committment in a marriage, well in a relationship without a core committment you can rest assured you’ll always know you can’t really count on the other person, marriage formalizes this committment.
6. Financial reasons. Yes there are benefits, they come with risks, but they are there.
That makes 6 for someone who complains about one of the first 5.
lozozo
bill writes “3. Safe Sex. Again there is no guarantee of this, but if the contract operates as expected there is an expectation of this.”
You should do PR for an airline which crashes 50% of the time Bill!
You could say “Reason # 3 for fling Bill Airlines: Safe Flying. Again there is no guarantee of this, but if the contract operates as expected there is an expectation of this, but the contract fails 50% of the time, but still, if it works out, you’ll live. Come fly with us today!”
loolozzzol
bill must be a professional comedian.
he writes, “6. Financial reasons. Yes there are benefits, they come with risks, but they are there.`”
that’s like bill telling people to invest in bill airlines, which crashes 50% of the time, for financial reasons, as there are benefits to be found investing in an airline that crashed half the time (even though there are risks too!).
You speak as though they were random, and not the predictable result of the pilots. Divorce is high because of fornication and contraception. Ditch those and the divorce rate is very low, albeit not zero.
Why don’t you ask a hard question?
1. I’ll live longer.
2. I’ll enjoy more acts of sexual congress.
3. I’ll know who my children are and they’ll know who their father is.
4. I’ll make more money.
5. I’ll avoid fornication; that such persons as have not the gift of continency might marry, and keep themselves undefiled members of Christ’s body. And I have not the gift of continency.
6. I won’t be dependent on Medicare, Medicaid, and Obamacare in my old age.
7. I’ll have more children and grandchildren who will grow up as libertarians who will help to proclaim liberty throughout all the land and to the inhabitants thereof.
Those are all reasons for women to marry.
But a man who marries may not get any of these, and in fact may get the opposite of all of these by taking the risk.
There is a ton of ignorance, delusion, and denial of reality in your comments.
I am sooooo glad that a growing cohort of young men are wise to this scam and choosing to pragmatically become pickup artists instead of marry the modern woman.
The live longer canard is a lie that just won’t die. That figure includes divorced men. When controlled for never married single mend, they live the same length as married men. Actually they live longer but the figure is within the margin of error.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/200902/no-getting-married-does-not-make-you-live-longer
Toads,
He’s talking about his reason for getting married. He is not denying reality, he is describing the reality with which he lives. It sounds like he’s found a great woman and built a great relationship.
yes!
every now and then, someone describes their own personal experience in jumping out of a ten-story high window and living!
so, now, let’s all jump!!!
(the neocon banking cartel tries to sell its debauched, desouled 32-year-old women as “good as new!” but they know, as did moses and jesus, of the wicked things debauched/desouled women are capable of–cuckholding, fornicating, transferring a man’s assets and children to the neocon corporate state, aborting 50,000,000 innocent souls and calling it a “right.” yes, women are the ideal soldiers in the neocon bnking cartel’s army of darkness, debauchery, and devastation, as the family is destroyed and man’s Natural Rights are trampled upon via the buttcocking welfare/warfare state which wages a perpetual war against truth, beauty, god, and the unborn)
Toads, you are a one man truth squad, and as a divorced man who thought it “Could Never Happen to Me,” I appreciate it.
The people here with hands over their ears, insisting that “marriage is worth it” may be right–till the wife ends it.
I never thought I would be divorced. I’m ashamed to admit that I pitied and had secret contempt for men who were divorced (the losers). I married a lawyer, not a bimbo. Had two terrific kids.
But divorce wiped out in my late 40′s. It never occurred to me that my “wonderful wife” would do it. We lost the house, paid a fortune to lawyers, and sent our kids through turmoil like no one can imagine.
I had to “buy” the “goodwill” in my law firm from my wife. Its a fictitious asset that the courts create to give more money to the wife. No one would ever buy my law practice. I had to pay her lawyer too, since my income was greater.
My ex told her therapist we had “grown apart,” which meant in part that she was bored with her house in an exclusive part of LA, bored with a beach club, annual trips to europe and Hawaii. I was not perfect (I work a lot) but I can assure you that no one ever said “let’s get a smaller house,” or “we don’t need those trips to europe.”
if we could have just split that would have been fine: but that’s not how it works. My reward for providing a great lifestyle? Pay her for years after divorce, while she stayed at home and I worked. Borrow the money needed to pay her for her “half” of the goodwill in my law firm.
Its worth it till she decides its not. That’s all you really need to know.
I married a lawyer
Mistake #1…
These threads are nothing if not predictable. A small but noisy group of embittered misogynists decide to universalize their crappy marriages and subsequent divorces as if they represent everyone. They don’t. There are a lot of worthless women out there, true. There are also a lot of worthless men as well.
As… the ‘misogyny’ slur. That is merely the blurt of a woman or mangina who cannot debate the actual points.
Misogyny is imaginary, but misandry is real.
Only after you comprehend that will you be qualified to open your clucking beak.
They’re both real. As far as qualifications go, if I’m happily married while your marriage was a miserable failure, you tell me who’s more qualified. Sorry that you’re apparently incapable of choosing the right mate. Lacking in judgment, I guess. But hey, I’m sure those motherless children you advocate will have just wonderful upbringings.
And aren’t you the tough guy, throwing around insults you wouldn’t say to my face. Or, maybe you’d be foolish enough anyway, and learn how Marines handle situations like that.
Oh my god… just about every cowardly cliche imaginable has been compressed in just one little comment from ‘Gaydar’.
On one hand, ‘he’ shames like a feminist seeking a handout.
On the other hand, his unconvincing ‘tough guy marine’ bluff.
Let me tell everyone what Radar’s role is in society :
Pickup artists want to have sex with women.
Women want to have sex with pickup artists.
Radar gets to pay the bills!
Everybody wins!!
Oooh, you’re a “pickup artist”. Color me impressed. Do you wear feather boas and eyeliner like the guys on TV? That’s just super manly stuff there. As far as how convincing my routine is, couldn’t care less about that. BTW, Marine is always capitalized. Pro tip. So, since I’m just a coward, tell me all about your service.
Feminism? Wouldn’t know about that. My wife is a mother first and foremost. Quit working fulltime shortly before our eldest was born. As I said, judgment.
In any case, I’ll be off now. Time to go to the bed with the love of my life. Have fun with your whores.
dear radar,
you write, “Have fun with your whores.”
did not jesus befriend a whore and reform her?
why do you not follow his lead?
who do you speak so bitterly and hatefully?
do you not like jesus?
does your wife?
Sure, Jesus reformed a lot of whores, but the key word is reformed. He had zero tolerance for hypocrisy, and that means that whores and whoremongers unwilling to abandon their sins were not welcome to follow Him.
Yes mythbuster, Jesus certainly had no tolerance for hypocrisy. Woe to you then mythbuster, when you’re standing before Him.
Radar is just another stormtrooper who directs his ire against men who are calling for justice. Notice that this coward “Radar” doesn’t have the balls to confront these family court judges and lawyers.
Indeed! Nor does Radar have the courage to speak out against the federal reserve system which financed the destruction of the family. Nor does Radar have the courage to speak out against the false preachers who inhabit our churches and sanctify and encourage the destruction of the family, all for a few fiat dollars more. At least Judas took silver for betraying Jesus and Moses!
Yes, Julia Gillard, the Australian Prime Minister has recently caused the dictionary definition of “misogyny” to change even further for female benefit.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/10/19/world/asia/australia-macquarie-misogyny/index.html
dear radar,
you are the misogynist.
you refer to women as “whores.”
did you ever have premarital sex? with whores?
did you wife ever have premarital sex? was she a whore too?
please keep your hate for women to yourself.
thanks radar!
You are making a lot of assumptions here, and those are accusations, not honest questions. There is nothing misogynist about calling people out on their sins, especially when their bragging about them.
The problem is: the system rewards worthless women,not worthless men.
Women are filing over 70% of divorces, and survey studies indicate women cause over 90% of divorces.
boy radar,
you sure throw that word misogynist around!
radar, what do you think about the women who fornicated and aborted over 50,000,000 innocent, unborn souls.
25,000,000 of these unborn souls were women. so they killed women.
are not the female fornicators and aborters greater misogynists than those good men who merely live by the words of moses and jesus who teach “thou shalt not kill” and “thou shalt not commit adultery?”
i understand that the postmodern fiatocracy hath deconstructed and desouled the world, but radar, as a man you cannot claim “victim,” unless you are an utter pansy.
moses and jesus both had it rough–far rougher than you do, but they didn’t bow down and worship the corrupt fiat masters, like you do.
Responding to Toads.
Not true the biggest reason and most important reason mentioned by most: Children destroys that sentence. If you want kids and want to raise them, marriage is the answer – and yes you can wait till the first one is on the way.
Dead wrong. A man has no legal rights to his children in America. He can only be in their lives is the mother wants him to be (although he has to pay for her shopping sprees under the banner of ‘child support’ even if she ejects him from contact with his children).
Plus, more and more men are deciding to hire surrogates and go it alone as Single Dads. This Canadian man, Toban Morrison, has done just that :
http://photogallery.thestar.com/1038282
And unlike single mothers who use taxpayer money, these men are using their own money.
Try again, Bill.
And unlike single mothers, single fathers are using their own money, not taxpayer money.
Even the fiercest opponents to modern marriage dynamics agree with the premise that a 2 parent household is the best environment for kids.
The problem is that the fathers have no control over whether or not that environment remains intact.
True… but the modern woman is so incapable of motherhood that a single man going it alone might be a net benefit. For one thing, a man who really goes this route is going to be very, very dedicated (unlike many single mothers who have a child just for attention and status jockeying).
Also, this ensures that the father’s resources go straight to the child, instead of the two places they usually go today, which are material products the mother wants for herself, and divorce lawyers…
How many children were denied the chance to go to college because a divorce lawyer took a large chunk of his father’s earnings? How many children were denied a better life because the mother wanted a luxury car, a $6000 purse, or a needlessly big house on a subprime mortgage?
A child of a single mother is disadvantaged. The child of a single father…. maybe, maybe not.
Plus, it improves society through ripple effects. If even ONE man does this, it immediately forces 1000 different women to behave a bit better, knowing that they can now be bypassed.
Marriage is the bedrock of civilized society. If no one was married we would not be civilized. True, civilization requires more than just marriage, but that is secondary. Without stable families and the relationships and obligations they create, well … fill in the blanks. Everything else flows from that premise, so here’s my five:
1. You want to live in a civilized society
2. You want a sense of fulfillment in your life that comes for commitment and intimacy that extends over decades.
3. Good teamwork makes life easier for both without a doubling of effort. Let’s call this efficiency.
4. The future. We project ourselves into the future through our children. Shaping your child and their future ensures maximum impact.
5. Health. On average individuals within a marriage are healthier and live longer than singles.
Why would anyone chose a single life?
All wonderful abstracts, which pale in the face of concrete threats of alienation, impoverishment and even incarceration.
The only compelling reason for a man to marry is if he is prepared to sacrifice his assets, vitality, time, and even life for a woman and her children who have no requirement to even acknowledge his sacrifices. He must accept that the sacrifices will continue in perpetuity and have no expectation to be acknowledged for it.
Thus, the biggest reason for a man to marry is that he does not feel his life is his own, and must be used in the service of others.
Aka: a sucker.
Dr. Helen, perhaps your question should distinguish between mindless marriage and Shakespeare’s “marriage of true minds” (Sonnet 116). The primary purpose of true marriage is the lifelong, deep growth of both individuals into a unit which then enriches children, the community, and the greater society for generations.
Yes, we live in a male-hostile legal environment, so finding true marriage means focusing on it in all your interactions with women. Examples: If she thinks more about the wedding (“her day”) than about you, she’s not it. If you’re getting married because of sex, either to get it or keep it, she’s not it. It takes time, effort, and self-knowledge to deeply know the person you marry, but it’s the only way to a real marriage. Of course, if you’re both shallow, it’ll never happen.
DH and I have been married 34 years, and we are increasingly married each year. Divorce has never been an option, even in rough times, because we both want what only marriage can grow in us. Five years in, I cross-stitched our wedding sampler, which says “A wedding is an event; a marriage is an achievement.” True then, true now.
Agree wholeheartedly. It’s true that love is not the same years into a marriage as it was at the beginning – it’s better. Deeper and more meaningful, if not quite as intense. Physical attraction has grown into a real friendship and team, being each other’s rock of support in the lean times and friend and companion in the good times. It ain’t always a bed of roses and it’s hard damned work, but it’s worth it.
MochaLite:
You completely miss the implications of this very long discussion. You say: “true marriage is the lifelong, deep growth of both individuals.” Never has been. Never will be.
Marriage is about having children. Period. That is all that is to be said. Three millennium of civilization have demonstrated that this is best done by the cooperation of a man and woman. The woman must, in some sense, “submit” to the man. She must accept his sexual power and authority for the sake of the children he generates within her and provides for, for the next 18 years.
In return she: (1) has children (which she cannot, until recently, do by herself), and (2) can nurture them (cook food for them, wipe their arses and noses, keep clothes on their bodies), while the male “works for” the resources that make this possible.
That’s the deal.
Or it was, until romanticism and feminism destroyed it.
P.S. “love,” “companionship,” yadayadayadayadayada, is icing on the cake.
Feminism wants the icing while throwing the cake in men’s faces.
“The woman must, in some sense, ‘submit’ to the man.”
Oh no, you di-int !
Man… you just opened up the Feminist Gates of Hell with that remark.
Well, you already know that I disagree, samwise, but here’s why: DH and I were married 6 years before having children. We will be married at least 30 years as empty-nesters. Out of a 65-year marriage, only about 20 years are actually given over to child-rearing. So, what of all those other years? Are they meaningless? I say that the two individuals bending and shaping to form a unit is the point of marriage … not children. They are the beneficiaries.
As to your comments on “submitting” and “accepting sexual power and authority”, I can only assume that you are joking and put those in to get attention.
Dear MochaLite:
Those 40 years together you’ve had with your mate are the byproduct, not the goal. The phenomenon of being able to live with a mate 20 years or more beyond child-bearing/rearing age has only been around for a century, two at the most. It is not of the essence. Be grateful for small favors.
As far as “submission” and “sexual power,” no I was not joking. (read lzozozozozlzo aka Great Books for the biblical details. Or the Epic of Gilgamesh, or any of the other ancient tales.)
I
meant
every
word.
yo, fish, I am a bicycle.
I’m sure she was too, maybe she still is?
Little crude lol.
I’m with aretae. It helps that mine was agreed to be an open marriage from before we married, and I have benefitted greatly from this (as has she, natch). But more than anything you have to remember that you don’t get to live your life more than once. I could only have had this life -had kids young, have good career/business, good income, a great lover by my side helping me obtain/achieve all this- by making the choice i made early on, the choice to have kids with her, and tog do it as a husband.
Now, i know, maybe they’re not really mine some will say. but oh man are they mine. The personality traits that could only have come from me? yeah, the kids got those, plus physical attributes.
I recognize it could have turned out badly. At times it seemed like it might, though each time we worked through it successfully. But i had good reasons to think she was a stand-up girl. For example, i got her preggers before marrying her, and when i got cold feet she told me that she’d keep the baby and make no child support claims if i wanted to go, she wanted to be a mom and was certain she could do just fine on her own.
If I had to do it all over *now* i think there’s a chance that you’d all scare me into not doing it. Certainly I think we should do something about divorce law… maybe make it so that the more custody she demands the less child support he gets to pay, with some legal device to keep jerks from using this to abandon kids with no child support. I’ll leave improvements in the law to experts to propose first, then I may be able to better comment on that topic.
What should some lad do now? I don’t know. It does make sense to wait until one’s 30s to marry: she won’t have that much youth left in her with which to get herself a better deal later on. But there’s a huge risk here because she gets less and less fertile very quickly. That’s another aspect of getting to live life once: youth passes very quickly! Having kids early means wealthier, care-free middle age, but if care-free is what you want then you’ll want that in your twenties, not fourties.
Lastly, this is not just an American problem, it’s global, and we’re staring at demographic doom, and i don’t think it’s just about modern attitudes to marriage, culturally or legally. I suspect that much of what drives low birth rates is about economics: it’s very easy to survive and even prosper by oneself, but raising a family is more costly than ever, at least relative to not raising a family. And I don’t see a fix for that; we’ll just have to see what happens after we lose ten or more percent in population, what we do about it then (i guarantee we’ll do nothing about it for now).
the white knight writes:
“It does make sense to wait until one’s 30s to marry: she won’t have that much youth left in her with which to get herself a better deal later on.”
yes! that is the solution! marry her and pay to get that which gave for free from 18 to 30 when she was younger hotter tighter and forty pounds lighter!
yes! buy the car after it has $100,000 miles on it. that way, nobody will steal it from you!
no wonder western civilization is collapsing.
i hadn’t thought that through well enough, but then, marriage after 30 is the norm nowadays… But what is your answer? Can’t marry them at all, can’t have a nuclear family, …. I married mine young, and that’s what i’d recommend were it not for how scary marriage really is. My dad advised getting her to abort and then partying the rest of my 20s… i couldn’t believe it. But i have had plenty of fun in my 16 yrs of marriage, so i partly did what he suggested! My answer is open marriage; it’s worked for me.
Observation:
Poly-married-folks agree with one another an awful lot about marriage. As usual, when I find a co-traveller, we seem to be in very similar places.
The American center of Poly may be Sili Valley, Seattle, Boston or Austin. If you happen to live near Austin, or visit, send me a message (email on my site).
openly married said:
Flat out dead wrong. India doesn’t have this problem, Pakistan doesn’t have this problem, the Philippines doesn’t have this problem, Iran doesn’t have this problem, Mexico doesn’t have this problem. See a pattern here? You see, the Western world has this problem and it was created by romanticist delusion that gave birth to feminism.
Iran most certainly has this problem as their fertility rate has fallen from 8 in 1978 to less than replacement rate now. India will have this problem soon. China has it now, though for obviously artificial reasons. Birth rates have been falling the world over and the trend is that they eventually fall below replacement. Sure trend != destiny, but for now that’s what we see.
Sapwood, you need to keep up with your demographic research. Third-world fertility is falling off a cliff. The expression “getting old before they get rich” is becoming an oft-repeated saying. The Muslim world has just hit a wall fertility-wise. Same for Latin America. As for China…
(1) To not be lonely.
(2) To produce a healthy next generation.
(3) SEX!
(4) to have a partner you can disagree with and still have.
(5) By union to improve financial health and outcome, improve one’s status in a society, improve one’s political power and standing.
Just for reason (2) society needs to cherish and specially protect marriage and outlawing bastardy. And for reason (5) limiting divisions and grudges that result in societal costs — legal, social disruptions, jails, welfare, etc. — to be peaceful and to encourage enterprise society needs to be tough on protecting marriage as a solemn special contract. Reason (3) is also a warrant for legal protections against adultery and fornication — because sex holds great risks to public health.
Reasons (1) and (4) are personal.
Not to be forgotten is that G-d made the world and humans. By highly respecting marriage we draw closer to G-d.
You are, in a word, ‘delusional’.
“(1) To not be lonely.”
Until she leaves on a whim.
“(2) To produce a healthy next generation.”
Assuming she doesn’t take the kids and move in with her abusive new boyfriend, leaving you with no involvement in their upbringing beyond a monthly cheque and a brief visit a couple of times a year.
“(3) SEX!”
Which often dries up before the honeymoon vacation is even over. Regardless of your position on sex outside of marriage, it is common and easily available. Marriage does not guarantee sex, and is one of the flimsiest reasons for matrimony.
“(4) to have a partner you can disagree with and still have.”
I argue with my friends often on any number of topics and we still respect and support each other. What does marriage have to do with this?
“(5) By union to improve financial health and outcome, improve one’s status in a society, improve one’s political power and standing.”
Until she leaves and takes at least half of everything, and you’re forced to live out of your car to make the monthly alimony/child support payments. As for your social standing, that will be in the toilet; even if she doesn’t slander you to friends and family to justify the divorce, married couples tend to treat recent divorcees as plague carriers who might poison their own union.
“Not to be forgotten is that G-d made the world and humans. By highly respecting marriage we draw closer to G-d.”
To steal a quote: Jesus hung out with 12 guys and a prostitute, so really he’s a lot more like me than you.
Hey V10 I really don’t give a flying f*k what Jesus ever did. But I do know that with your attitude you ain’t no prize. Drop the grudge match attitude to life post-divorce, hey bro.
And not that it matters, but a relation with a prostitute is a few cuts higher than a “friend with benefits” type of dismalistic sex.
Hey, you’re the one that brought up ‘getting closer to God’ as an excuse for matrimony.
Marrying to impress a 3rd party or make them happy, even The Almighty, is yet another flimsy reason. If the Lord is pleased by us participating in a hollow charade built upon lies and misrepresentation… Well, it’s certainly not a flattering estimation of Him.
PS. Prostitution is at least honest.
“As I think about it, I wonder in today’s anti-male climate, whether there are financial and legal reasons that a man would want to marry. Maybe I’m being too cynical here. Can readers help me out?”
There is nothing necessarily cynical about wanting to legally and economically improve your life. And wishing to improve the life of someone else is the very opposite of cynical.
Along with legally and economically, marriage can improve your life socially, physically, sexually, emotionally, and intellectually. Choose carefully, of course, but that’s true about everything in life, right? Actively love and respect the person you’ve chosen and expect the same in return. Be faithful to the marriage. Contribute your fair share. Consume, for your own personal wants and needs, never more than 25% of the combined household income.
How many arrangements between two people, besides marriage, make it possible to have the experience in which the person you desire is the very same person you’ve legally chosen who has also chosen you? Keeping a good marriage is the greatest gift parents can give their children.
Well said, Meade!
Sandy, Mary, Elizabeth, Pamela, and Bobby Jo.
I expect to be pounded for this comment because it goes against the conventional wisdom among most commenters at this blog, but there was a time when most of the complaints made here by men — complaints I think are basically legitimate — were true for women. Specifically, husbands could be unfaithful or cruel without any real downside, and wives were at an economic disadvantage if they wanted a divorce. That doesn’t mean it’s fair to treat today’s men the same way, only that men need to seek out solutions for this imbalance.
I hope that having public advocates like Dr. Helen is a start to fixing that imbalance because I think marriage is a great thing for spouses, children and society. I hate to see so many commenters give up on the institution of marriage.
Hahaha feminism n a nutshell right there. It was never about redressing perceived grievances, (which I call to you to prove: which you can’t.) it was about stomping some men down and getting some serious rage out on men with the help of the court.
In the past, I perceive women as having a bad deal, so I want to get some HATE on and stomp some men down – drj circa 1960.
Ok we screwed up and society is in terminal decline but we aren’t going to help you fix anything because it kind of feels good to make men suffer and besides it’s your problem anyway. – drj circa 2012.
As they say, enjoying the decline, soon marriage will be as extinct along with the gentlemen.
Ybm,
So I specifically said “That doesn’t mean it’s fair to treat today’s men the same way …” and “I hope that having public advocates like Dr. Helen is a start to fixing that imbalance …” because I really meant the opposite?
Interesting logic.
Plus, don’t forget that I called men’s complaints “basically legitimate.” In your world, that makes me a man-hating feminist, too.
I’m not married and I would get married primarily for three reasons:
1. I love her.
2. She loves me.
3. She needs me.
#3 is the main problem. I want to be needed and I don’t mean only or even primarily in the emotional/affection sense, but in the physical, practical sense. She wants to have children and raise them full time, or simply does not want to “work outside the home” and would prefer to be a homemaker, and she needs me to provide for her. I live in NYC and meet only career women, with jobs, earning salaries, sometimes even more than I. Bottom line: If she wants, and is able, to support herself, she doesn’t need me and I have no reason to marry her.
if there was an airline
which crashed 50% of the time
with women initiating the crash 80% of the time
because they walked away with the man’s assets and kids
would you call a man cynical
for flying on a different airline
where he got young, hot, tight women
three or four times a week
while holding onto his assets
and building a career
and passing the women off
to other men when they turned 30
and reached the proper age for marriage
as their best sexual years were gone?
No, but I would call him scum who’s part of the problem.
I wouldn’t call him immoral. I would, however, suggest that
(a) he’s lucky/gifted
(b) most folks trying this strategy fail.
(c) most single folks fail this pattern.
(d) sex is only a part of what you’re buying with marriage, and he’s missing most of it.
you’d call him “scum?”
why do so many of you here resort to namecalling? do you not know that vitriol and ad hominem attacks are against the rules here? it seems that for many of you, it is the rule! lzozlzlz
and what would you call the women who fornicated and then aborted over 50,000,000 unborn babies? would you place them on a pedestal and award them with cash and prizes like the trotskyite banking cartel does?
as america goes bankrupt, and as all the 80 year olds hear speak of their happy marriages from the pre-buttocking era, it is strange that none of the 80 year olds lament the death of 50,000,000 unborn babies, sent to die via a woman’s choice alone.
this is because the 80 year olds come from a generation that cares for nobody but themselves. and because those 50,000,000 were robbed of life, the mothers were able to go work for the corporate state, instead of raising children, thusly enriching today’s 80-year-old at the expense of posterity, god, and country.
I’m 23. I’m a survivor of the abortion holocaust, and don’t ever doubt that I call those women murderers, and even worse than them are the abortionists and those who pressure them to abort or approve of their abortions. Men, women, doesn’t matter. I hold all to the same standard of conduct. You, however, seem to be using the sins of women as an excuse to sin yourself, and that is never justified. That logic will get you sent to Hell with them, and you are without excuse.
dear myth buster,
where have you seen me sinning? do you watch over me?
why do you spend so much time here assaulting the good men?
where is your blog that passes judgment on the abortion culture?
would that not be a healthier use of your energy, rather than nit-picking and nagging the good men here like an old maid?
why not man up and launch a blog where your criticize the greater culture, rather than (or at least in addition to) lashing out at your brothers?
I’ve seen you sinning on this very thread by encouraging fornication. That’s a sin called scandal, which is the murder of souls.
There seems to be general agreement of those men who have been through the legal meat grinder of divorce court that, in the end. it wasn’t worth it. For those who have had healthy, long-lasting marriages, the advantages seem to outweight the hypothetical downside.
I think we can agree that the divorce law and practice in most American states tend to destabilize marriage and encourage divorce and destablize family life, to the advantage of women.
One advantage mentioned is the financial and tax advantages of traditional marriage. I think this is a strong reason to oppose gay marriage. Diluting the few encouragements and aid our legal and tax system gives to marriage does NOT help to encourage traditional marriage and families.
If employers have to extend health benefits to new partners of the non-married, then expects some employers to cut back on expenses for health benefits for ALL employees.
Men and women are going to continue to form relationships revolving around sex. That still means procreation, if to a lesser extent than in days gone by. Our legal structure needs to adjust from its feminist overshoot back to support of stable families – or we’ll be deminished to those cultures with more stable families.
lol you write “There seems to be general agreement of those men who have been through the legal meat grinder of divorce court that, in the end. it wasn’t worth it. For those who have had healthy, long-lasting marriages, the advantages seem to outweight the hypothetical downside.”
that is saying “There seems to be general agreement of those men who have been through the plane crash, in the end, the ticket wasn’t worth it. For those who have had healthy, long-lasting flights, the advantages seem to outweight the hypothetical downside.”
yes! for the 50% whose plane did not crash, the flight was worth it!!!!
ALL ABOARD!!!! lozzloz
“For those who have had healthy, long-lasting marriages, the advantages seem to outweight the hypothetical downside.”
Not surprising, really. Most problems don’t seem so bad when you hear about them happening to somebody else. To really understand, it has to happen to you, and then you have to deal with the fallout firsthand, daily, for years on end.
Skydiving is an amazing experience and totally outweighs the risks involved. Until the chute fails to open.
I’ve been divorced for about six years. I own my Harley outright (bought the year I divorced, yes, it was my midlife crisis), just bought a new car, have money in the bank, and no one blaming me for her shortcomings. While I wouldn’t mind having a regular girlfriend, I have no desire to ever get married again. So what’s in it for me?
Raise a family? Oh, hell no. I’m 53. It’s a bit late for that.
Conversation? I get that with friends.
Sex? I remember the wife holding out on me because I didn’t give in to one of her demands.
Financial support? I make six figures. I don’t need financial support.
Emotional support? My wife turned her back on me when I needed her the most.
Housekeeping? I can hire a maid to do that, and it would be much cheaper.
Cooking? Restaurants!
The inequality of the family court system has turned marriage into the worse possible investment a man could make. The acceptance of a woman’s lies in court, despite the complete lack of evidence and evidence to the contrary, means a man can not expect to get a fair hearing when it comes to child custody and visitations. The woman just has to whisper the word “abuse” and the courts take away everything — his home, his children, and his livelihood.
My reply at PJ Lifestyle: http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2012/10/20/the-only-reason-why-a-man-or-a-woman-should-get-married/
Thanks Dave, I just read your post a few minutes ago.
1) Man was not meant to thrive alone. He can survive, but he cannot thrive in the fullest sense of the being human alone.
2) Dodging marriage and procreation because of societal trends seems like a really good idea until you’re too old to do much about it. The manosphere talks about women wasting their youth and finding out they can’t land Mr Right at 40 – but men have their own clock. Talk to an 85 year old unmarried man with no children about his life. Do you see joy? Or look around at the 50 year old divorced women. They have another 3-4 decades of misery to look forward to
3) The right relationship in a Christian household brings meaning to life. Lacking that meaning makes all the gold and sex in the world worthless. Living celibate is another kind of choice, but that’s not what people are doing.
4) A man marries to become the head of the household. That is an honor, but also a responsibility. It’s not being a white knight, it’s being an authority figure.
5) Three ways to make an impact on the world. Write one of the great books. Be a historical figure. Father and shepherd a family. Forge another link in the chain that your ancestors built, and link yourself to the future. To do this well, you have to be in a family.
I’m with the people who are down on marriage. Outside of children in a Christian home, I see no reason to marry. I see a lot of Christians who make a lot of mistakes and get married for the wrong reasons. But I also have a father who just finished sitting hospice with his wife for four years. She earned his love and loyalty, despite dying young. She respected him, honored him, and supported him. Many wives do this for their husbands. Our job is to train men and women, our sons, daughters, and friends, how to do it right.
Giving up is the death of civilization.
1) Man was not meant to thrive alone. He can survive, but he cannot thrive in the fullest sense of the being human alone.
Jim–so why aren’t you raging against the banking cartels which financed feminism to destroy the family?
2) Dodging marriage and procreation because of societal trends seems like a really good idea until you’re too old to do much about it. The manosphere talks about women wasting their youth and finding out they can’t land Mr Right at 40 – but men have their own clock. Talk to an 85 year old unmarried man with no children about his life. Do you see joy? Or look around at the 50 year old divorced women. They have another 3-4 decades of misery to look forward to
Jim–so why aren’t you encouraging women to stop dodging marriage and get married at a young, clean, pristine age. Jim–why aren’t you asking women to stop initiating 75% to 85% of divorces?
3) The right relationship in a Christian household brings meaning to life. Lacking that meaning makes all the gold and sex in the world worthless. Living celibate is another kind of choice, but that’s not what people are doing.
Jim, as a good Christian, why aren’t you commanding women to stop fornicating? Have you not read the words of Moses and Jesus>
4) A man marries to become the head of the household. That is an honor, but also a responsibility. It’s not being a white knight, it’s being an authority figure.
Jim, so why aren’t you raging against all the women and banking cartels which oppose man and the family?
5) Three ways to make an impact on the world. Write one of the great books. Be a historical figure. Father and shepherd a family. Forge another link in the chain that your ancestors built, and link yourself to the future. To do this well, you have to be in a family.
Jim, so why aren’t you raging against the forces that have been eroding and destroying the family, as well as the Great Books for Men?
I’m with the people who are down on marriage. Outside of children in a Christian home, I see no reason to marry. I see a lot of Christians who make a lot of mistakes and get married for the wrong reasons. But I also have a father who just finished sitting hospice with his wife for four years. She earned his love and loyalty, despite dying young. She respected him, honored him, and supported him. Many wives do this for their husbands. Our job is to train men and women, our sons, daughters, and friends, how to do it right.
Giving up is the death of civilization.
Jim, so why have so many of you given up criticizing the feminists and their federal reserve system which transfers assets from good, honest, rugged men to the divorce cartel and state?
Jim, because you have given up, Western Culture is in free fall.
All I know is, my tax bill is going to skyrocket after the divorce, AND I am the one raising our son. Almost worth the nonstop complaining her Ongoing Unfulfillment In Her Low Paying Career to prevent the Man from getting many extra thousands of dollars per year of my money.
In every situation that involves a monopoly, which (sorry) is what marriage, in addition to its many real and potential virtues, represents, the service goes down and the cost goes up.
Marriage is the last to remain of a pre-literate society’s formal ceremonies, such as “livery of seisin” for conveying property, that inform the community of the establishment of a particular economic or personal relationship. Twenty years from now the only people getting married will be gay couples, and then only because they have a point to prove. That’s already the substantial reality in some places, such as Quebec.
The realistic approach to marriage equality is not legalizing same-sex marriage, but rather abolishing marriage altogether as a legal construct.
1. It is not good for man or woman to be alone. Marriage spares me the undercurrent of spoken and unspoken expectations and fear of abandonment that comes with other arrangements.
2. There is wholeness in the man + woman equation. She brings so much more to the table that I can alone and it gets more whole as time increases (see number 5).
3. There is freedom that comes with marriage that protects from all the relational dysfunction out there. For the most part, my marriage has protected me and my wife from the predators and vampires.
4. My kids have tremendous security in our marriage commitment to each other.
5. After multiple attempts at various relationships before marriage I can honestly say that exploring the depths of love with my wife, over decades of time, is the most rewarding of human experiences. After 15 years of marriage I can honestly say that I am in awe of the complexity and breadth of love we have. In my counsel of other couples, I never see that in unmarried people nor in those who aren’t serious about ’till death do us part.’
I seem to be the only guy in the world who got married for one basic reason: I loved her and did not want to go through life without her.
The ensuing 50+ years have seen highs and lows, but no lasting regrets.
Bingo – there are two of us.
I think it is the natural condition of most men & women to want to pair up. But the key for a man is to find a woman who wants to get married, and stay married. My own observation is that women who are like that come from families which are themselves intact. It also seems like these families have religious ties of some kind. The number of these women seems to have been greatly reduced in the last 50 years.
But I got mine.
“the key for a man is to find a woman who wants to get married, and stay married”
Couldn’t agree more, but would extend that to both.
A couple of other comments also struck me: “Mileage may vary” and the one that said many, many people get married without really knowing their mate.
I’m a fifty something, never married. Child of two divorces, child of an Angry woman who often said ‘Don’t be like your Dad.’ She trained from childhood to be a caregiver to her. Grandma and mom: borderline personality disorder, alcoholic). I’m free of them now and enjoy having some peace and quiet.
I’ve thought a lot about marriage and it just seems like a bad investment. I see where you can leap into it while in a passion, in an emotional state. Love is a kind of madness but it’s temporary. When you look at it analytically, the risks are so much greater than the rewards. And some of those rewards have cheap substitutes. Want a companion, get a dog and some good friends. Or pay a therapist $100 an hour. Want sex, rent it. Just want physical touch, find a good masseuse.
Children are an enormous amount of work and risk. But not having children means you have no posterity, no next generation. Someone else will inherit whatever you’ve built. So why bother to build anything?
The one benefit that I’ll never get is that a retired couple can live well on two pensions where one man on one pension is not so easy. However . . it looks like a lot of pension plans won’t be around in ten years.
Once I’m no longer able to work and support myself, I expect it will be time to lay down and die. I expect that our social safety nets will be bankrupted and useless soon after the Baby Boomers start retiring. I expect the next decade of inflation will double or triple living costs while leaving incomes flat. How else will the ruling class handle $16,000,000,000,000 of current debts, growing by at least a trillion a year.
There is one unexpected outcome of all this. I no longer care about posterity or the future. Why should I care what happens after I die? If the Muslims conquer Europe and impose Sharia on all europeans, I care not. If America’s ruling class Elites finish destroying our economy, what care I. If the USA collapses like the USSR, what care I. Let’s see what it’s like when your culture shifts from Decadent to Decrepit. I’m mildly curious to see if European socialism will regress back into its totalitarian parents.
Maybe as part of preparing for the collapse, maybe we should set up a lot of secular Monastaries and Nunneries, places where aged single men and women can go to live in dormitories when they can’t earn a living anymore.
More likely, the Elites and Czars will use Obamacare to pass out ‘pain pills’ and encourage the elderly to self medicate themselves out of existence.
Jeebuz, far too many of the usual hammerhead responses to this topic. “I’ve been married for 500 years and everything’s going swimmingly”.
Morons.
Of course it’s going swimmingly. Until she gets some weird whim, and then you’re finished.
And (at least here in the U.S. of A.) there’s nothing you can do about it.
Cleaned out. House, family, savings. You’ll find your five pious reasons for getting married in the first place rendered irrelevant, and at your age you’ll find that it’s tough to start all over again.
Which is the entire point of this thread.
“Until she gets some weird whim …”
Or you do …
John, how ignorant can you be?
This entire thread has explained how a man cannot have such ‘whims’ as he would lose his life savings. A woman can have the same whim and GET his life savings.
He wants out, he pays (and loses his kids).
She wants out, HE pays (and loses HIS kids).
That you are still in pathological denial of this shows how pathetic the cohort of denialists are..
They are about 10x into the ‘La la la I can’t hear you!!’ stage. Of the Johns on this thread, it is safe to say that they swam through an ocean of knowledge only to emerge completely dry.
“a man cannot have such ‘whims’ as he would lose his life savings”
And yet over and over I’ve seen men do this. So who’s the ignorant one, Toad?
Based on the divorce statistics, you lie john.
I am 100% sure ‘John’ is a woman sockpuppeting as a man.
These are tired old boilerplate lines women use to deny the fact that the laws are rigged against men.
Women, of course, believe that what the ‘feel’ is a greater truth than hard facts. This is the giveaway that ‘John’ is a woman troll.
No, not ALL men will lost their life savings.
Some men will take it from their wives when THEY get the whim.
It is, as many of the more hopeful posters put it, an act of faith.
And one of commitment.
If you marry, then get drunk on business trips and fool around, your wives will know it. Even though we are home 800 or 4000 miles away.
Men, keep your commitments to your wives no matter where you are. I believe that 9 out of 10 of us will keep our commitments to you. And the 10th, well, her husband knows who she is too…
I think the answer is that those men married for decades have found a woman who doesn’t have those “weird whims” or who is dedicated enough not to act on them.
Happily married for 25 years, and cannot conceive of living this life again without my loving, devoted partner. My marriage has added a deeper dimension to my life than I had when single and has, I think, made me a more honest, self-honest and mature person.
But my experience is just my experience. It does not invalidate the horrific life screwing-over many men report here. Convesely: I find it really depressing that those men who have been screwed over cannot even acceot the reality of the experience of we who, for whatever reason, were more fortunate in our choice of spouses.
I think in a certain sense it’s like Capitalism this way: you can play be the rules and still get screwed; you can game all the rules and come out way ahead; you can play be the rules and prosper honestly; you can fail because you made bad choices or had a bad stroke of luck: all four options are always in play.
Agitating for real change (in divorce laws, in the culture that screws up women’s minds, etc.) is the Tea Party approach. Demonizing “those who made it” drags you down to the level Occupy gang, and makes any future improvenent in the realtions between men and women impossible. Which I think is sad and misguided, given that there are some great ones, like Dr Helen (and yes, my wife).
Good comparisons!
104. Greg
1. It is not good for man or woman to be alone. Marriage spares me the undercurrent of spoken and unspoken expectations and fear of abandonment that comes with other arrangements.
Dear Greg, so why are you not speaking out against the divorce industry and the federal reserve system which finances the desouling of women and the deconstruction of the great books and classics alongside the Bible? Do you not care about your fellow men and your children’s future, or only yourself?
2. There is wholeness in the man + woman equation. She brings so much more to the table that I can alone and it gets more whole as time increases (see number 5).
Dear Greg, so why are you not speaking out against the divorce industry and the federal reserve system which finances the desouling of women and the deconstruction of the great books and classics alongside the Bible? Do you not care about your fellow men and your children’s future, or only yourself?
3. There is freedom that comes with marriage that protects from all the relational dysfunction out there. For the most part, my marriage has protected me and my wife from the predators and vampires.
Dear Greg, so why are you not speaking out against the divorce industry and the federal reserve system which finances the desouling of women and the deconstruction of the great books and classics alongside the Bible? Why do you not speak out against the system that incentivizes women to destroy families, rewarding them with cash and prizes for doing so? Do you not care about your fellow men and your children’s future, or only yourself?
4. My kids have tremendous security in our marriage commitment to each other.
So why do you not speak out against the divorce system and rapacious, debauching feminism?
5. After multiple attempts at various relationships before marriage I can honestly say that exploring the depths of love with my wife, over decades of time, is the most rewarding of human experiences. After 15 years of marriage I can honestly say that I am in awe of the complexity and breadth of love we have. In my counsel of other couples, I never see that in unmarried people nor in those who aren’t serious about ’till death do us part.’
Dear Greg, so why are you not speaking out against the divorce industry and the federal reserve system which finances the desouling of women and the deconstruction of the great books and classics alongside the Bible? Why do you not speak out against the system that incentivizes women to destroy families, rewarding them with cash and prizes for doing so? Do you not care about your fellow citizens and your children’s future, or only yourself?
And yet over and over I’ve seen men do this. So who’s the ignorant one, Toad?
You are the ignorant one.
The law punishes men severely for this. But women are rewarded for it.
The men you think you saw were victims of false accusations by women. 40% of rape accusations are false, you know (see : Duke Lacrosse).
I am beginning to think ‘John’ is a woman posing as a man. The debate tactics used by ‘John’ are very stereotypically female.
John, until you grasp how rigged against men the laws are, you will never be informed enough to comment.
Then again, if you really are 75 or 80 or whatever your age is, your generation’s constant swindling of young men for the appeasement of women will soon pass with your passing.
toad is awesome!
“Then again, if you really are 75 or 80 or whatever your age is, your generation’s constant swindling of young men for the appeasement of women will soon pass with your passing.”
yes, John’s generation created more debt and debuachery than any other generation in the history of mankind, and then dumped it on their children and grandchildren, while patting themselves on the back for giving the money to their wives, to satiate their supreme greed.
“The men you think you saw were victims of false accusations by women”
Good grief, Toad, now you’re a psychic!!
Some advice for you personally, Toad. Don’t get married. You’re comments signal you’re not mature enough to handle it, and you will only cause harm to yourself and others.
Hmmmm, feminine shaming tactics. Hey Toad, you might be right, john might actually be a female posing as a male. How stereotypically female this dishonesty is.
Any man who has sex outside of marriage and encourages the same deserves to be shamed for it, and so does every woman. I’m a 23-year-old nuclear engineer with a Master’s degree, and my opinion, for what it’s worth, is that you and Toad are scum. Why? Because you despise marriage but refuse to embrace chastity because that would mean that you couldn’t have sex. Either grow up and get married or swear off sex.
You are absurd…. particularly since ‘marriage’ is just a lopsided legal contract designed to funnel money to divorce lawyers.
Yet men should remain celibate without that?
41% of babies are born to unwed mothers (you know, the ones who decide that they are not attracted to nuclear engineers, but merely want his tax dollars for themselves). Perhaps you should focus on shaming them first.
uh, girl, i have sex outside my marriage, it makes me happy. (it makes her jealous, but that’s her problem and she deals as she gets the same benefit.). i love the conquest. i love finding out what this or that lady look, feel, and taste like between their legs, and i love to show them what i can do. yeah, i’m a gift to women, or at least those that have a g spot: i’m lousy at oral. there’s zero chance you could shame me because my wife knows all this, as do our friends and much of our families.
Myth Buster writes,
“Any man who has sex outside of marriage and encourages the same deserves to be shamed for it, and so does every woman.”
Myth Buster! Oh happy day!
why are you not protesting cosmo magazine and the publishers behind fifty shades of grey which encourage fornication?
why are you not protesting the millions of women who fornicate and kill their babies?
why are you spending your time here, persecuting good men?
the facts are that women no longer feel obligated to live by god’s law, as men such as yourself never pass judgement on them. instead, you spend all of your sexual energy on persecuting men and shaming men and passing judgment on men!
it was women whom the fiat bankers taught to forsake and toss away god’s law. so why are you not trying to save those spinsterhood-destined women who publish and promote adultery, fornication, and butthext?
why are you directing all your h8 towards good men?
are you truly fighting for jesus and moses and your brother and sister? or for satan?
I’m not persecuting good men, I’m calling evil men out on their sins. And what makes you think I’m not protesting abortion? I just got back from demonstrating outside an abortion clinic.
Yes, you have to get married or be celibate. There is no legitimate alternative. Can’t deal with it, too bad, that’s your problem.
And an open marriage is no marriage at all. I’ve got news for you: when you get married, your sexuality no longer belongs to you, but rather to your spouse. Thus, a man has the right to demand sex and sexual exclusivity from his wife, and a woman has the right to demand sex and sexual exclusivity from her husband. When you commit adultery, you are giving something that isn’t yours to give, but rather has been stolen from your spouse. If you have relations with somebody else’s spouse (even if they’re divorced), you are receiving stealing and receiving stolen property.
I have great respect for traditional marriage, that is the one practiced in the third world. I have nothing but contempt for the crappy sham version that the American government is peddling. Because of the evil divorce industry, men in Amerika have no choice but to get married overseas or use surrogates to start a family. The fact that you are ok with jackbooted thugs with badges crushing innocent men into indentured servants makes you the scumbag. A scumbag with no understanding of human history or the culture that the Bible was written in.
Mythbuster said:
And yet he won’t demonstrate outside a family law court or a divorce law firm. Unlike fake amerikan “christians” like you mythbuster, real God-fearing men in India are taking the fight to the feminists.
Yes, now I am 100% convinced that ‘John’ is a woman.
It is true that a man married for 50 years is so well-trained in groveling to his domineering wife that he becomes like a woman, but even then, traces of past masculinity are present. But not with John..
This type of shaming language can only come from a woman. The huge, outright denial of rigged laws, as well as obsessive need to say ‘men also do bad things’..
It is amazing how women who want to imitate men can’t even do it at the most basic level.
You just can’t trick biology.
Younger men might get revenge by cutting off Social Security and Medicare to all those old people who allowed these crap divorce and family courts to be established.
What do you mean ‘might’?
These past few years, economic policies have been plagiarized wholesale from the villains in Ayn Rand novels, right down to the speeches of politicians. I fully expect the term ‘economic terrorist’ to enter the official lexicon in the coming decade, and I welcome the label.
The beauty of it is that we will wage and win this war simply by doing nothing, by refusing to exert ourselves for a system that affords us neither respect, nor hope. I can live very comfortably on wages that technically place me below the poverty line. Good luck getting blood out of this stone to fuel the rampant entitlement systems.
Feminists, enjoy your cats.
Boomers, enjoy your cat food.
Social Security and Medicare are doomed anyway, especially for those about 50 and younger. When talk about means-testing these programs became overt (instead of staying covert as had been the case for the previous 25 years), the writing materialized on the wall.
Combine that with the burgeoning bioethics encouraging medical providers to pull the plug as quickly as possible on older patients, and you will see there’s no need for younger people to do much about Social Security and Medicare for their elders.
The demise of marriage because of experiences like those we see in these comments, meaning that an elderly person is more unlikely to have a dependent spouse, will hasten these events.
Marriage is like California. The only reason their still so relevant is that their both fundamentally great things. Laws have increased costs for staying and increased incentives for leaving, but people still stay for the great weather and great resources.
*they’re
Yes! Marriage is like California. It’s bankrupt.
Thought provoking analogy! You may set out to live in Pacific Palisades but actually end up in Maricopa. Chances are it will be somewhere in between …
)
Toads,
Between your name and your statements, I keep picturing you as a Gorn from Star Trek, because you obviously come from another planet than my wife and me.
Dear James,
What planet are you from? Planet of the Apes? Or just the wife?
Toad comes from the real American world where the evil divorce and family judges screw men over.
The third world is the only world where marriage is actually a real institution.
My hypothesis would be that our worlds share courts and laws, but have very different women in them.
This thread is a discussion between married men who have found great women who are not driven by the corrupt costs and incentives imposed by the court and unmarried men who see the costs and incentives but don’t see the women who make those costs and incentives irrelevant. With some outliers putting in their opinions.
It’s a discussion between the specific and the general.
Oh….. is that what this is?
I thought it was a discussion (based on the original question) concerning the notion that there aren’t many, if any, reasons at all for a Man to marry, since most people cannot produce even 5 fair reasons without ignoring reality.
I think Dr. Helen is asking the wrong question. I can’t think of five random reasons for any man to marry any woman, but I can think of quite a few reasons why I married the woman I’m married to now.
I can’t think of many good reasons why I was married to the woman I divorced many years ago, but then that’s probably why the marriage ended. It wasn’t marriage that was the problem, but the participants in that particular marriage.
Here’s five good reasons I’m married to my wife:
1. Her love and loyalty, which increases in value to me each day. Having a woman who will fiercely defend me against anyone who tries to hurt me is really a valuable thing to have, particularly on crowded buses.
2. Having a partner means suddenly your finances are more important, i.e., you are answerable to someone else for your frivolous spending or lack of thrift, and, hopefully, vice versa. Having a cheap wife who makes sure we watch our spending means someday I’ll be able to retire comfortably. That’s definitely worthwhile.
3. Daily, uncritical acceptance of myself as someone totally fine with my partner is a huge boost to my self-respect and esteem.
4. Her cooking is not only delicious, it’s healthy as well. Left on my own, I’d eat myself into colon cancer or heart disease fairly quickly.
5. Last but not least: sex is terrific, and improves as we become more used to each other. Seriously, sex is very important to my good health, and my wife keeps me quite healthy.
I could go on, but my point is this: marriage in the abstract doesn’t really exist. Marriage exists in the particular, which is nice because so do we.
I’m not sure I’d eat myself to death, but never interact with another person beyond what was needed for me to take care of myself. My wife and I challenge and complete each other well. She keeps me from being a hermit.
Good point, which is why the arrows Toads and others keep slinging at posters with successful marriages fall short. He and they are responding from their obviously failed-marriage perspective and attempting to generalize that to all marriage. Doesn’t work.
Scientists have shown than married men live longer. So there is one reason. Wanna live longer? Find someone who you can grow old with and commit. Second, in the sour grapes department, if 1 in 2 marriages fail (and they do) 3 of 4 marriages fail when couples lived together first. What gives? If you tried the milk and moved into the barn before you bought the “cow” and then tied the knot later, well, you kept your options open and mentally always knew you could get out of it if it didn’t work, didn’t you? Is that marriages failure or your lack of commitment?
Further, many of the attitudes seen here are the attitudes seen in the black community 30 to 40 years ago. That social experiment didn’t end well, with the destruction of the intact African American family, government benefits as financial father, 70% are born to single mothers, 60% of prison population is black males, promiscuity is rampant, serial fatherhood is rampant ad nauseaum.
This is not the path society should emulate.
Laws suck? Yes. War on men? Yes. But the number on reason to marry is. . . children need fathers, present everyday, being a manly role model, teaching son and daughter what a man is and how a man acts. Every single dysfunction a kid can have, every single dysfunction, can be tied in some way to “daddy issues”. And I should know. Married 21 years to my best friend, father of my 3 children and I’m a public HS teacher. Daughter a slut? Son a thug? Daddy issues. Son or daughter failing because teacher and mom “can’t make them”. Daddy issues. Can’t I be that without marrying? You can try but it’s just not the same. Real men, marry because it’s the manly thing to do.
“Real men, marry because it’s the manly thing to do.”
Oooooo…. right. Single men aren’t really men at all…. certainly less of a man than “real man”.
Um… real women don’t make such insipid, fruitless, inane and pointless comments that are obviously constructed to try and shame Men into walking down the aisle. Shutting your vapid, useless pie-hole is just the womanly thing to do.
So…you’re main argument is “children need fathers.” Funny, a lot of women think otherwise (not whining, just making an observation). I don’t have kids, don’t want them and find absolutely no reason to marry. And yes, I’m almost 40. I find it far more manly to steer clear of the train wreck known as Western Civ and make sure I land on my two feet when the dust settles. Shame? Please, from someone I don’t know? It means nothing at all to me.
Marriage should mean more sex than singlehood, and for me it almost certainly does. I can only speculate as to how much honey i’d get if single, but it’s an educated guess from my extracurricular activities: nowhere near what it’s been, which pretty much 4 times a week (excluding times when i’m sick, traveling, or when she’s sick, but including times when either of us is dating others as that doesn’t stop us). Why? because she has a high libido. There was a brief period when she was on depo provera when she had zero libido and resented sex, but as soon as we figured that out she got off that crap and it’s been plentiful ever since. (Her libido went up significantly after her 28th bday, but she never denied me before either, except for the depo period). Sure, as a single i could get plentiful sex by being in LTRs, but there’d be in-between periods, and it’s not easy to hook up 4 times a week (and plenty riskier anyways, disease-wise).
Any man who doesn’t get enough from his wife is a moron or knew it’d be so and loves her anyways.
Also, what about women who complain of not getting enough? Does that not happen??
you write, “Marriage should mean more sex than singlehood, and for me it almost certainly does.”
umm sounds like you have no game.
most women have ten-twenty partners before marriage these days, and only one after, whom they generally just ant to do missionary position with, having tired of all the freaky stuff.
so yes, thee is less sex these days after you mary a deosuled, haggard thirty year old who is “now ready for marriage,” like teh rental car with 100,000 miles on it is “now ready” to be sold to a proud owner. lzozozoz
If “game” means sleeping with death-traps, then good riddance.
So a lot of the replies are ‘I got married 50 years ago in a different era and different culture, so everything is OK today in the world’..
I suspect that many long-time married men are conditioned down to have exceptionally low expectations…
They crow about how ‘their wife lets them have sex’, but they fail to see that the outside world sees them as married to an obese, aged, land whale. Almost no other man *wants* to have sex with that women. But these married schlubs have been trained and conditioned to find their unenviable penury acceptable.
“She cooks food”. Great. She has to cook for herself anyway, so making a larger quantity so the man can eat…. what a bonanza that is.
“She lets me have an hour or two of free time a week, and lets me spend 5% of what I earn on myself!!!” How fortunate..
Again, a lot of these married schlubs are so far gone that their minds have conditioned them to think they are fortunate to have the most minimal, mediocre things.
I bet if someone paid for them to have sex with a pretty 23-year-old prostitute, they would never, ever be able to even look at their 55-year-old land-whale wife again…
In other words, the happiness we see from the schlubs on this thread is the product of expectations that have been ground down to the barest of stubs, over the decades.
My wife is 40 but passes for 25. she no whale.
will she get old? yup, you betcha. so will i. will i get to the point where the only way to get fresh new honey will be to pay for it? yepper doodles, i will. for now i can still get 25 y/o girls, and she can get hers too. when i’m old and beat up i’ll be able to say i had it all… because i already can say that. i have had and regularly have: sex, a nuclear family, girlfriends, hookups, money, travel, intellectual pursuits, my colleagues’ respect, and more. much of this is made possible by my being married to a great gal.
i now earn enough money that i could pay for all the sex i want and not be married, but then, not married i’d lack a nuclear family, and that actually is important to me: my kids, whom i teach my wisdom (such as it is), who will remember me when i’m gone, who will give me grandchildren, who have given me much joy and will likely give me so much more joy, and who will never vote democrap. if i could have had that w/o marriage, wouldn’t i have? but i dont believe i coulda.
Toad, what a pathetic schlub you are!
John, please go to feministing.com. It’s way off to the left.