Forecast: Category 5 Riot Expected to Hit Oakland Soon
When a hurricane strikes the East Coast or the South, residents are warned for days ahead of time to prepare for the upcoming disaster. But out here on the West Coast, unfortunately, our disasters usually come in the form of earthquakes, which arrive suddenly and with no warning.
So it is with a rare and uneasy feeling that Californians are currently awaiting one of the few West Coast disasters which has been reliably predicted ahead of time. Except this catastrophe is not going to come courtesy of Mother Nature, but instead as what our president might call a “man-made disaster” — in this case, a riot.
Nearly everyone in the Bay Area agrees that a major Oakland riot is brewing if the verdict in the trial of policeman Johannes Mehserle, accused of murdering BART passenger Oscar Grant on New Year’s Day, 2009, comes back anything other than “GUILTY!” The problem for Oakland’s sense of security is that Mehserle is almost certainly not guilty of murder, and the jury is likely to give him a comparatively light sentence or even let him go completely.
The case has received wall-to-wall coverage in California for the last 18 months, but here’s a quick primer for those of you elsewhere in the country who may be unfamiliar with it:
In the early hours of January 1, 2009, a large group of young men got into a brawl on BART, the Bay Area’s subway system. Police were summoned and stopped the train at Oakland’s Fruitvale station, where a chaotic mass-arrest scene spilled onto the platform. As hundreds of passengers watched — many of whom were filming the proceedings with their cell-phone video cameras — several harassed BART police officers tried to subdue and then arrest dozens of brawlers. In the midst of the melee, one of the cops (Johannes Mehserle) pulled out a pistol and shot one of the men being arrested (Oscar Grant), killing him.
Sounds bad, right? Not so fast. As revealed in some of the videos taken of the incident, Mehserle was absolutely flabbergasted to see a gun when he looked down at his hand, because he had been instead reaching for his taser, which is also gun-shaped and kept in a belt-level holster. As several witnesses, including a weeping Mehserle himself, testified at the trial, the shooting was entirely accidental, and Mehserle was instead trying to tase Grant, whom he felt was out of control and resisting arrest. You can see the moment yourself in the last few seconds of the most famous video, when Mehserle looks at the gun in horror and then puts his hands to his forehead in dismay. The gestures only take a few seconds, but the entire case rests on this.
Because of public outcry, Mehserle was put on trial for murder, even though the threshold for murder was self-evidently not met in this case. Is Mehserle guilty of killing Oscar Grant? Certainly. Should he be convicted of involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide? Probably. But a murder conviction requires proof of intent and malice aforethought — that you not only wanted to kill the victim but also planned it ahead of time. And it’s quite obvious first of all that Mehserle hadn’t planned anything, since he had never even met Oscar Grant until moments before the shooting; and that Mehserle’s distress afterwards — as well as the testimony of eyewitnesses who heard Mehserle saying “I meant to tase him!” — prove beyond any reasonable doubt that he had not intended to kill Grant at all.
For the incident to count as “murder,” these thoughts must have gone through Mehserle’s mind: “Here I am surrounded by hundreds of eyewitnesses, half of whom are filming me, as well as several policemen including my superior officer; I think this is a good time to murder a stranger in cold blood in front of everyone, just because I’m a homicidal maniac!” Highly dubious, to put it mildly.
In the court of public opinion, however, facts play a minor role. Oscar Grant’s grieving family, egged on by ambulance-chasing lawyers, radical political groups, and every race-baiting organization on the West Coast, pressed for the maximum charges against Mehserle, in a gamble for a full murder conviction, even though it was inappropriate and they had a slam-dunk case for a lesser charge (such as involuntary manslaughter). However the judge’s jury instructions, not public opinion, will determine whether “lesser included charges” like manslaughter can be considered. The trial was moved to Los Angeles because of overexposure in northern California, and it is due to wrap up in a day or two.
When it’s over and the jury comes back with a verdict — watch out. Things are likely to get ugly. Very ugly.
Rumors of a riot after the verdict have been swirling for months, and have increased exponentially in the last few days:
All over the city, there’s talk of a riot if Mehserle is not found guilty of murder or manslaughter. Flyers and graffiti are posted everywhere demanding justice for Grant. Bloggers and columnist[s] are already speculating about how deep the civil unrest will become. Rodney King’s name is tossed about and the police are getting ready to crack heads if a riot goes down.
To get a taste of the mood around Oakland, look at the photos which have been scattered throughout this post. They were taken from this YouTube video and show graffiti sprayed earlier this week around Oakland’s most scenic spot, Lake Merritt. The sentiments range from “Mehserle Must Die!” to “LA Better Get It Right! Or else!” to the chilling “Oscar’s revenge? Mehserle’s kid!” And with the words “Cops bleed too” adorning the city streets, I have the feeling we may indeed be in for a repeat of the 1992 Rodney King Riots.
What’s your take on the case and on the inevitable civil unrest that will follow, whatever the verdict may be? What charge should Mehserle be convicted of, if any? If I was on the jury, I’d vote for negligent homicide, a few years in jail, and a guarantee that he’d never work in law enforcement again. (If he’s incompetent enough to draw the wrong weapon in a stressful environment, he should not be trusted to safeguard the public.) But murder? Forget it.
Negligent Homicide and a few years in jail sounds about right.
But the whole idea of Tasers has a huge flaw. I have no doubt that people have nearly been shot. Making the Taser gun-shaped and on the same belt as the gun was asking for trouble. Training and a far different shape are IMHO needed to make things safer. I would not be surprised to see this the only case of mistaken shooting.
As for Oakland, it has been a powder keg for quite some time. Largely, because the local leadership particularly the Nation of Islam which wields great power there has not been able to provide any direction. Other than scapegoating for local failures. I would surmise that a huge riot in Oakland will create a massive reaction politically. Guaranteeing Jerry Brown’s defeat, IIRC he leads in the polls now. There is not the social, and critically economic “give” that was in LA during the King Riots.
I agree…and would go a step further. Sometimes I think things like tasers and pepper spray are a part of the problem, not part of the solution. In general, the bad guy isn’t afraid of being shot anymore…worst case scenario, a tase here, a spray there, and you’ll be walking and talking out of a courtroom the next day. But to your point, absolutely…probably a good reason that pepper spray is in a can, and not dispersed by a gun-shaped device. At the very least, it should be holstered differently.
Do American police still carry batons? It would make sense to incorporate a taser into the end of a club – a non-lethal weapon with a very different shape. Solid state electronics can be made tough enough to survive such use.
Thats why the defense sounds weak to me… I would have accepted reflex action in the heat of the moment but mistaking two weapons of different weight, size and shape hmmm… sounds like the nearest excuse to none at all. I think he was scared of being overcome and having his weapons taken and used against him and he made a split decision that ended badly a bad judgement call that ended in the loss of life. Murder in a sense, hes dead not malicious but reckless! Plea bargain and maybe he should be allowed to meet with the family and hear their pain. This is an esque of racism. White armed cop unarmed black man not a good look for the defendant if only he took the time to think. Riots will continue because to those who are surface thinkers it was racial… thats a big number.
Provide DIRECTION??? What direction could that group possibly provide that would be beneficial for anyone except those who wish to continue the violence and hatred?
If Oakland breaks down into massive rioting (race-based or leftist or both), I say just encircle the rough neighborhoods where the rioting takes place with National Guard troops, and if the rioters attempt to break out of those districts, use force – deadly force if necessary.
Let them destroy their own neighborhoods, then don’t give them one cent to rebuild, unless somebody has private insurance to rebuild it.
Then let them live in the rubble they created.
What folks like Eric R (who says “let them destroy..their..neighborhoods”) should know is that many of these leftist, anarchists, who were causing a lot of the incitement were not in “their own neighborhoods (suburban areas”). They came to downtown Oakland–City Hall which the intent on causing chaos in neighborhoods of other people who would have preferred not to have their cars set ablaze.
I agree with renee. Black, white, asian–law abiding people have the right to be protected from rioting people, whoever they are. It would be unconscionable for OPD to assume the rioters speak for the mass of law abiding people. One of the worst things LAPD did in 1992 was abandon areas of the city to the nuts, leaving law abiding people unprotected.
who’s “unprotected”?
when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away.
This seems similar to the Rodney King case, in which case, the rioting will be racial. In that case, it is likely to be limited to neighborhoods already down and out.
On the other hand, this also has similarities to the Amadou Diallo case in NYC, where he was shot 41 times by 3 cops on a dark street when he was reaching for something (it turned out not to be a gun).
The hysteria around that also had people fearing a race riot, and like in this case, they moved the trial out of town – to Albany. The cops were acquitted — and there was no riot.
The demonstration is planned to start at 14th & Broadway — downtown Oakland, not “neighborhoods that are already down and out.” Suggesting rioters be allowed to destroy “their own neighborhoods” is just an ignorant statement on so many levels. The people that will be hurt are small business owners of all races, ages and genders.
What many fail to realize is that the actual rioting and the majority of the destruction and property damage is caused not by locals, but my rich, white, ‘anarchist’ kids mostly from Berkeley. I work in downtown Oakland and witnessed the riots in 2009, and you know what I saw? Mobs of angry people marching and protesting. And the ones who initiated the violence? White kids from the ‘burbs.
That’s too bad.
What a load of rubbish. Go look at Katrina, go look at Rita, go look anywhere there’s been major rioting and looting, and you’ll see an overwhelming number of blacks. The only time the “rich white kids” outnumber anyone is in the WTO protests, the animal rights crap, stuff like that. In this case, you might get quite a few white anarchists, but watch closely, once the rioting starts, it will be blacks everywhere stealing and looting.
Right on bro…a brutha needs that 52″ LED TV when the power is out. Gotta have some street cred and something to barter with after the lights come back on…right?
Really Kareema? “Bro, street cred” what TV loving looter uses these terms anymore. Who’s really behind the black mask and hoodie from which you spew. Stop stirring up crap.
Sorry, Olivia, that’s an old urban myth. Way too many videos are out there showing that the vast majority of looters/rioters were black.
Next time you need police protection, don’t call 9-1-1, call the ACLU. They’ll file a suit on behalf of your estate.
Uuummmmm, how can it be an urban myth if she SAW IT WITH HER OWN EYES? Anyways, she’s right. Guess how I know? I live here too and have repeatedly seen the same thing.
Also, the amount of racism proudly on display here in these comments is pretty scary. For Chrissakes, all I wanted was to see if there was anything on-line about the possibility of riots in my city, and everything that’s available comes back to white supremacist rhetoric and websites. Sick. I may live in Oakland, but at least I’m not where you backwards people are. Yuck
I agree with Olivia, since I saw the same thing. Certainly the marchers will be majority black, but the idiots from Anarchist’s Bookstore and the like — those that couldn’t make the trip to Toronto for the G20 — will be the major instigators within the mass of people.
On the outskirts however, smaller groups of black teenagers will do a lot of the damage, breaking car windows and the like. I saw this with my own eyes last time, as we stood outside our uptown restaurant to ward away these knuckleheads who were roaming the streets like packs of wild dogs.
Fabricated…”white kids from the burbs” did not go to Oakland to riot after parolee Oscar Grant was accidently shot by a cop. Regardless of race, the animals who rioted then and will riot soon are just that…animals whos’ breeding ability should be removed. There is a fine line between protesters and morons who jump through windshields. The fools, whatever race/gender do it because the are allowed to…Police must use overwhelming force to squash rioters while at the same time allow the protesters to do their peaceful thing. This is a very difficult operation seperating the good from the bad at a emotional “protest”. Unfortunaltey there will be jackasses, black/white/mexican/asian/indian who will choose to destroy things and Oakland and it’s “community” will be set back another 25 years……bet me…
I am an Infantry soldier in the National Guard and Im with you on this one. But they had better be careful what they ask for. Most of my unit has been back from Iraq for less than a Year so some of us are still in that mind set. California better not start crying when they ask us to come in and do our jobs, cause we dont have to follow the same rules as the local law enforcement. We are, in fact, Infantry soldiers.
undisclosed- Be careful with your statement, and you mindset. A politician will not think twice about skewering you if it means political points(remember the Haditha Marines).
I am not buying it, sorry. I feel badly for all involved. The riot will come, many will suffer. The Nation of Islam will be the winner in the end. However a cop killed a man who did not deserve to die. Happens every day in this country to average citizens. They go to jail for murder. The cop doesn’t get special dispensation because he was horrified. When the wife kills the abusive husband, she still goes to prison. Most would agree it is somehow “justifiable” homicide due to years of beatings. However murder is murder. Sorry to bust this meme….but he murdered a man…
Didn’t read the article did you. Murder requires several elements, most of which are no present in this case.
Shooting a unarmed person to death with a pistol is explained as…??????…..justifiable…accident….hmmmmmm???????
i believe the term “homicide” will be used in the verdict…can you explain the definition of that word to me
I doubt if you could comprehend it.
Have you every been in a manufactured rage event, JJ? If you want to blame anybody, blame the scum who created conditions in which scores of police were forced to wade, risking their own lives to protect the innocent people trying to use public transportation.
The city where I live is burying two young cops (fathers) this week. It would have been four, but two others were saved by their vests in a separate shooting.
Cops in Toronto are taking heat from the Right AND the Left (mostly, the Left) for either using too much force or failing to use enough force to quell moronic Québécois “anarchists” who flooded the G-8 to liberate small consumer electronics — you know, in opposition to The Man.
There were 50 shootings in Chicago last weekend — all responded to by an outgunned, outmanned police force overseen by someone who sides with the ACLU and against his own men.
I’ve been really troubled lately to see some comments on my blog literally celebrating the murder of police officers. And not just the usual mugger-huggers, but also at least one who claims to be aligned with Right-wing politics. Grow up. You’ll certainly go crying to the cops the next time you feel really threatened — and if you are in real danger, you’ll kiss the ground when they arrive.
Thank goodness for Zombie, subjecting himself or herself to this stuff. I lift a big bottle of antibacterial soap to you, whoever you are.
Oh, please, Tina. There was a time I respected the police and the job they did. Since their conversion into a paramilitary force and the huge increase in the use of SWAT teams to serve warrants, my trust for them has reached virtually zero. Their constant reference to non-police as “civilians” is bad enough. Unless they are in the military, so are they but they choose to ignore this fact.
Mehserle was either badly trained, too highly-strung for the job he held, or knew exactly what he was doing and did it, thinking the Thin Blue Line would save him. I was not there, and so cannot say. I am not him and so cannot say. I am not at the trial, so I don’t know what to say about it, either. But the point remains: he shot a man in the back while holding him down, at point-blank range. His “mistaking” which weapon he had grabbed is something I do not buy. The tasers I have seen have a grip that is a darn sight different from that on a handgun. Badge-lickers, please note: I said “that I have seen”. If he made that bad an error, I stand on my point about his lack of training.
He has to answer for what he did, just as any citizen must; letting him walk will send a message to every Bull Connor wannabe on every police force in this country.
Homicide is simply this, the killing of one person by another. For example, when someone is drunk and they crash there car into another car and someone dies, that is called Vehicular Homicide, a crime less than murder. When someone accidently kills another person (no intent, no malice and apparently what actually happened here) that is called Negligent Homicide, a crime less than murder. When someone kills an individual who is trying to kill them or another, that is called justifiable homicide and is not a crime at all. On the other hand, when a person intentionally and unlawfully takes the life of another that is called Murder. If it is done without malice aforethought, it is second degree murder. When it is done with malice aforethought, it is called first degree murder. There is no crime called “homicide” there are crimes that involve homicide, but that is all. This is why police departments have HOMICIDE detectives. They investigate all HOMICIDES some of which are murders and some of which are not.
Grizzly: Bull Connor? Oh, come off it. Don’t be ridiculous.
How shameless to flip around wild accusations of prejudice from behind a cowardly, anonymous nickname. if you really cared about such things, you wouldn’t be ashamed to sign off on such a serious accusation, now would you?
It could be an accident. It could also be negligent homicide. What it isn’t, is murder.
Manslaughter. The cop neglected to make sure he was drawing his taser, rather than his gun. Careless handling of a firearm resulting in the death of a bystander is involuntary manslaughter, and the cop should go to jail for 5-10 years, less time served.
myth buster,
There was nothing careless about the shot. He hit his target. This really seems to be a case of a good cop and good shooting.
“Shooting a unarmed person to death with a pistol is explained as…??????”
if it’s accidental as is the case here? “Involuntary Manslaughter” – just like the article says.
but since you didn’t bother to read and understand that from the short article before commenting, I have little reason to believe you will bother to read and understand what I just wrote, either.
Bust this meme? HA! You, like so many others, think the world of yourself. How about you bust open the article and READ it, eh?
Certainly, Mr Mehserle “killed” Mr. Grant,..but “killing” is NOT necessarily “murder”. A “murder” conviction, requires “proof” of a “deliberate” INTENT to KILL. There is NO proof as to Mehserle’s INTENTIONS, in this case. & since it is “reasonable” to believe that the killing could have been “accidental”, then under the law, the jury MUST, by law give any benefit of any doubt, to the defense,..the burden of proof, of intent is on the prosecution,..& in this matter, there is NO proof of intent to kill. There is, certainly, proof that Mr. Mehserle was not as carefull as he should have been,..hence, he was “negligent”, so a charge of “Negligent Homicide” could be supported by the evidence,..but there is no proof of an intent to “kill”,..I am thinking, that if Mehserle were black, & Mr grant were white, then we would not even be having this trial,..But if we were, then those who are screeming for Mehserle.s head,.would, instead, be saying that the system is just picking on a black cop, because he is black,..This whole “murder” charge is politically motivated pandering to black racism,..pure & simple,…
Can someone explain to me why people in large cities display their displeasure with a jury verdict (or some other deemed offense) by destroying their one neighborhoods? The logic of this has always eluded me.
I agree that negligent homicide with a few years in jail is warranted here. But if the jury or judge decides otherwise, to what end is the destruction of private and public property? Many people (police as well as civilians) getting hurt and possibly killed will not bring that young man back, nor will it console the grief of his family nor will it add additional punishment on this officer or his family.
It will just make the people of Oakland look like a bunch of animals to the rest of the country.
Because leaders won’t act like leaders. In LA in 1992, the mayor lynched the cops before the trial, and the media re ran the few snippets of a videotape without showing the entire thing. The Simi Valley trial was not televised so the eventual acquittal was surprise and outrage to many who had only seen the snippets.
Here, I sense a lot of the same: one side is steaming in anticipation of an “unfair” verdict; Jerry Brown is not stepping up to deal with the situation and if there is an aquittal, it will surprise many who will react badly.
Leaders need to act to dissipate this anger now, and racial leaders, if there are any there, need to speak up also and embrace any verdict. But for now, it seems, only the angry side is talking. The trial should have beeen televised.
A majority of the rioters aren’t even from the city that they’re destroying. I will bet you cold hard cash that 99% of them are bratty rich kids who live in berkeley (where all the crazies are from)
When you say, that “people” sometimes distroy their own nieghborhoods, over disagreements with jury verdicts, you have it right,..But you neglect to clarify, exactly “which” people you mean. The only people that I have heard of, who are dumb enough to trash their own areas are those of the “Black” persuasion,..Please note, “White” people did not riot over the O.J. Simpson verdict, where a black jury allowod, a clearly guilty O.J. to get away with the murder of 2 “white” people,..& while I am at it, let me ask,..Exactly how many young black men, have been murdered, by OTHER BLACK MEN, in Oakland, since the death of Mr Grant,.? Dozens certainly. And where in the black community, is all the outrage over those deaths,.? Where indeed,.? The black race in America, needs to clean up it’s act & stop blaming “Whitey” for all of there many problems. If Oscar Grant, could have just ridden on BART, that night, without getting into a fight,..then he would be alive today,..
Oh, my, it’s not just to express displeasure that these ruffians riot, sometimes it’s to express their “joy and happiness” in celebration of their basketball team winning a championship.
iow: it’s an EXCUSE by a group of people who are so filled with contempt and hate for society at large they just need an excuse to be destructive.
There will be a riot no matter the verdict. The race baiters lit the fuse, and the verdict is just the end of that fuse. These folks will riot, angry or happy.
And all that graffiti looks the work of one person.
exactly…and a set up by the socialist/communist/anarchists. When is America going to wake up to the coordinated attack? This has nothing to do with a cop and a killing, but about an opportunity to riot, for any reason.
Red spray paint…
Leftist ideology always promotes segregation and violence. It would be great if the race husslers from J. Wright down to Al Sharpton could be put out of work; their current job of living off of social unrest has gone on long enough.
Agree! And they’re aided and abetted by the media which LOVES a good riot (as long as they can present it sanctimoniously as “social justice” instead of a bunch of criminals taking advantage of the situation).
Whenever anybody starts an argument with “any reasonable person would . . ” I know they got caught and have no recourse but to toss aside all principle and go into their “fake limp” to avoid accountability for their actions.
But will the right ever admit such behavior? No, instead you get pearls of wisdom from Eric R . . .
“I say just encircle the rough neighborhoods where the rioting takes place with National Guard troops, and if the rioters attempt to break out of those districts, use force – deadly force if necessary . . . Let them destroy their own neighborhoods, then don’t give them one cent to rebuild . . . ”
Hey Eric, here’s a thought, let’s do the same with Israel and its Arab neighbors. I think we’re all pretty sick of the victimhood going on over there . . . “We killed your children because you fired rockets at us waaq-aa-aaa” . . . “We fired rockets at you because you killed our children waaaa-aaa-aaa”
I say just encircle the rough neighborhoods where the rioting takes place with National Guard troops, and if the rioters attempt to break out of those districts, use force – deadly force if necessary . . . Let them destroy their own neighborhoods, then don’t give them one cent to rebuild . . . ”
That’s what any reasonable person would do.
Looking for blood in all the wrong places.
I always knew that liberals were long on hate and short on brains. But do you have to prove it in every post?
Well, you have to give Skeez credit – at least he’s consistent. Incoherent, spiral-eyed crazy with hate, but consistent.
Gee, Mr. Cleaver, what hate?
Hate and The Principal Liar sleazits” Oh yeah. Need more?
In reference to General McChrystal –
5. skeeziks
“The guy’s a fraud. A poseur. A punk.”
June 23, 2010 – 3:15 pm
Hey The Principal Liar sleazits. If the Cesspool fits, live in it.
And the Principal Liar sleazits certainly has found a home.
Don’t you live in the same ‘hood as Van Jones? Yeah, you that other part of OakTown that won’t burn. Most anything in them thar hills is safe. Modern Liberal Toothy Hillbillies? And down on the flatlands, where the Modern OakTown Liberals have successfully kept the nasty masses at bay for 100 years, you know you don’t want to go there and be bro’ on Redemption Day.
So Liar, Most Pure Modern Liberal, The Most Ethical Object Known, Exalted By Itself As Perfect Sewage, what about the Person’s Galore Routine? Being sooooo many persons might make your legacy merely a taint.
No hate here –
skeeziks
“conservatard…”
“… (slut and softball) are too stupid to comment on…
Hail Rush! Go Sarah!”
June 11, 2010 – 11:32 pm
233. Now and Then:
“Hail Rush. Go Sarah!”
Dec 5, 2009 – 7:03 am
More hate. The Punk said this in reference to a soldier deployed in Iraq.
84. skeeziks:
“Actually, it’s a Deployed Retard bracelet”.
Feb 11, 2010 – 6:09 pm
You made your cesspool. Love it or leave it.
Whatever.
“But do you have to prove it in every post?”
Yes! A thousand times yes! That train is always right on time.
Don’t hate me because I’m right. Im the only true conservative on this board.
Now that’s funny.
I’ve never commented at PJM, but this last comment by skeeziks made me laugh.
I mean, you even picked a name like ‘skeeziks’. Waaait a minute… is that you, Al Gore?
Its odd that all of the graffiti pictured is done by the same person. Were they taken in the same location?
One question. Having never held one, does a taser, although similarly shaped, holstered and all, really feel exactly like the pistol the officer claims he thought he was reaching for? No, it doesn’t sound like murder but it sounds plenty fishy nonetheless. Will he reach for a banana and shoot his old lady some day?
Several types of Taser used by police departments are designed to have as nearly identical weight, grip, balance, etc., to service pistols as possible. This is intended to make training easier, as hand-eye coordination skills and “muscle memory” learned in pistol practice can also “read across” to the less-than-lethal incapacitating weapon. The X26 Air Taser, and the later C2, were both designed with grips nearly identical to the Glock 9mm pistol used by many police departments, for this exact reason.
When Columbus PD (near my home town here in OH) adopted the X26 two years ago, I noticed the strong resemblance of its grip section to the Glock pistols. (CPD uses Smith & Wesson pistols, BTW.) At the time, I wondered if, under stress, an officer reaching for a holstered Taser might end up with the service pistol in extension instead. (Believe me, in a high-stress situation, you are looking at the potential assailant, not the weapon in your hand, lethal, less-than-lethal, or whatever.)
Which means that while this incident grieves me, it does not especially surprise me. Except perhaps that it didn’t happen somewhere earlier.
Ergonomics is the science of making tools fit people. While it’s a useful art, it can sometimes be carried a bit too far. In my professional opinion, this case is an object lesson in that principle.
The primary responsibility for this tragedy is the department’s. Specifically, their training officers and whoever decided that the Taser should be carried in a holster that could be confused with the service pistol’s. My suggestions would be;
1. Stop using the “pistol-twin” Taser immediately, and replace it with one that does not have the same “feel” as the service pistol.
2. Put it in a belt holder that not only is different from the pistol holster in “feel”, but is nowhere near it on the belt. I’d suggest on the left side for right-handed officers who carry the service pistol on their “strong-side” hip, and the opposite for “southpaws”. Also, make sure that the Taser used can be used with either hand- not all have their controls laid out to allow this. (But then, it took forty years to get service pistols that were largely ambidextrous, too.)
3. In training, put extra emphasis on not confusing the two in the immediate action. Yes, this will take more training time, and cost the city more money. That’s the city’s problem. If I were in charge of training, I’d simply tell the mayor, “It’s your choice; pay for extra training now, or pay for lawsuits later. Up to you.”
clear ether
eon
Another idea is color-coding the weapons. Maybe a bright red butt for the pistol and a yellow butt for the taser. That way, even if the officer is focused on the suspect, they can clearly see the color in their peripheral vision and avoid using lethal force unintentionally.
Red == Dead
Yellow == Mellow
color coding would not have helped – no one looks at the holster before grabbing a weapon-
I would like to see how calmly any one of us would remain in a melee of punches and rioting youth who you have no idea if they are armed or not or if they would challenge your hold of their fellow rioter- anyone could have made the same error in the midst of a chaotic life endangering situation- most of us would never volunteer to go into that riot
My suggestion is very simple- next time there is a riot of black youths, and people call for help- the police should refuse to act- just let them “wild” – let them do the killing and get convicted
they are damned if they do or don’t anyway
The butt, not the holster. Unless you’re shooting from the hip or something similarly stupid, if you can see the rear sight, you can see what color the butt of your gun is.
You are absolutely correct. Anyone claiming a color code would work has clearly never had any training or practical shooting experience OR has never even hunted. I think “eon” hit the nail on the head. Ergonomic similarity has no place on a police officers belt. There should be no mistaking the weapon your hand is holding without having to look at it. This was a tragedy waiting to happen.
You forgot a few:
white = right
black = crack
brown = down in the cold cold ground
blue = Jew
There, that oughta take care of it. Now we don’t even have to ask them for their papers.
good points.i wonder how he could have confused which weapon he was holding if he was using the sights.if he was intent on “tazing” the man instead of shooting him-he probably wouldn’t have worried about his marksmanship.
Under high stress (which he most likely was) it’s not uncommon not to see the sights, not to hear a shot, not to feel the recoil, not to feel being shot at all… it can all happen, you are doing it willingly, but it feels automated. Been there, done that.
The ONE thing I am very confused about is the holster. I can understand mistaking a taser for a service pistol under stress. I can even understand taking aim and firing, using mostly muscle memory myself in quick target acquisition at close range I aim with my thumbs, not my eyes.
However, the simple fact that the officer probably had a level 3 retention holster, likely of the Safariland type…
I really, really want to know what type of holster he was using for his service pistol. If it was a level 3 retention, it does take some effort getting the firearm out… and to point, what holster was being used with the taser?
Zombie: I don’t know who you are, but I think you are not American. I think you are either from Iran, where police shoots people point blank, or a memeber of IDF
who also shoot people point blank, or you may think that Oakland CA, in not california, rather north Korea, Zimbabwe. I just saw the video. that bastard is guilty as sin. he shot the guy point blank. when you shoot someone with a taser gun, you will hold it for a few seconds, he just shot him and pulled his gun
Hey Miriam –
In this case, like many, the devil is in the details. Let’s walk through this:
Did the cop shoot the guy? – Obviously.
Was the death “wrongful”? – Probably.
Should this cop be on the street? – Absolutely not!
Should the cop do prison time? – Probably.
Was this a “murder”? – Almost certainly not.
Murder is a legal term with a specific legal threshold. The key threshold is intent. To “murder” someone you must intend to kill them. To convict this cop of murder it must be shown – beyond a reasonable doubt that this cop intended to kill someone he had never met in front of video cameras he knew was there. That is going to be an almost impossible threshold to meet.
Negligent homicide (with a decade or so behind bars) would have been a slam dunk. He would have probably plead guilty. But by demanding a murder trial – the game has been changed. The jury may well be charged with the question “murder – yes or no?” If that is the question – the answer will have to be no, it should be no (if we are to ever return to the rule of law in this country). There was not a “murder” here. Despite of our emotions on this issue the cop is “not guilty” of “murder”.
By demanding “murder” trial, the DA has set this guy up to possibly walk. Had the DA charged the guy with what he actually did – he would already be in prison.
This is the point of this story – not that the cop should walk – but that by trying the case in the court of public opinion – he might actually walk and the people of Oakland will probably burn their town down (again).
Here we go with miriam’s patented technique of using every issue to blast the Jews.
She also seems to have some kind of emotional hangup on this point blank nonsense. I guess she feels that right and wrong are determined by some kind of cosmic tape measure.
As to the guy not holding the gun on him for several seconds, even a flaming anti-semite like you should be able to figure that out. As soon as he pulled the trigger, he realized he wasn’t holding his taser. Do you think they feel the same when being fired?
Zombie apparently believes in a trial by a jury of his peers as the way to resolve issues like this, Miriam. Sure seems American to me.
Innocent until proved guilty. It’s still the law.
Maybe he can get a job with the IDF as a border guard. Better still we could use him in Arizona. Let’s admit it, the man has talents.
More of that evil jooo hate.
ah Miriam confused as ever poor dear- YOU are the one from IRAN, or so you say
never miss a chance to say something stupid either- instead of any cogent argument either way you insult Zombie and make off topic entirely baseless comparisons
IN IRAN dear- the RIOTERS would be the ones in JAIL not the cop
Wow, I’m surprised Obama hasn’t already pronounced this guy’s guilt.
Hell, he called a cop stupid just for trying to protect a black college professors house when a person (who later turned out to be the professor) was found breaking into the house.
Barry must have been out golfing or toasting Paul McCartney.
He didn’t do it on purpose from the reaction and statements. But he didn’t murder the guy on purpose either. I would have to say either incompetence or poor training. I can tell you from experience there is a LARGE difference in the feel of the taser pistol to a real pistol.
The photos of the vandalism look like that were all written by the same person.. if there is such a thing as a handwriting check with a spraypaint can.. regardless, I think there will be civil unrest, and no matter who’s at fault the race baiters will blame the cops.
‘Grant served two state prison terms for various felonies including a conviction for drug dealing.[32] In 2007 he was sentenced to 16 months in state prison for fleeing “from a traffic stop while armed with a loaded pistol”.[9] During that incident, near his Hayward home, San Leandro police shot him with a Taser to subdue him after he threw the pistol into the air and ran.[9] The arresting officers testified that even after being Tased, Grant “continued to resist efforts of the officers to handcuff him”.’–wiki
Sounds like a typical Oakland citizen. An armed and violent drug dealer, who likes to duke it out with the cops, when he’s not up at the state prison. Hope the jury will take that into consideration.
They can burn Oakland to the ground for all I care. Wouldn’t be much of a loss. I just I hope it doesn’t happen today, because I have to drive out to Alameda.
Dave and Zombie: which chapter KKK do you guys belong to?
I’m the Grand Exalted Dragon, Most Excellent Cyclopean Pointy-Headed Cross-Burner, and Kleagle-beagle for the Marin County Chapter of the KKK. I also run the Klan’s annual Toys for White Tots Only drive, and I sweep up around the place to boot. Furthermore, I was recommended for the job by the late Democrat Senator, Robert Byrd, so have a little respect.
Zombie tried to get in, but, like all good left wing organizations, we don’t have no truck with Jooooooish Mossad agents.
My apolgies Dave, rereading my post I realize that I implied you were part of the KKK, that was not my intention.
No worries. I understood that you were needling miriam a tad.
Marin chapter of the KKK! Oh, that’s a hoot. Miriam might not dare to believe it, but she would fit right in. After all, the only way to make any sense of what she writes is by making a luxurious fetish of unconscious irony.
Of course she knows she would fit in.
The whole point of her asking was because she’s looking for another hate group to join. The Taliban cell she’s a member of has become too touchy-feely… hasn’t had a good beheading in weeks.
Must not be yours, or you would already know.
“Zombie: I don’t know who you are, but I think you are not American.”
Shhh.
He’s a Mossad agent sent over here to work with agencies like the BART police and the Gestapo. His task? To expedite the murder of innocent Pal terrorists and underprivileged armed drug dealers, with multiple priors in order to further Zionist world domination.
Don’t blow his cover.
Huh. I’ve been following Zombie for years. Zombie’s photo essays of the Bush years “anti-war” protests are the stuff of legend and provide hours of entertainment…what a fantastic caption writer. Anyway, I’ve always had a hunch that he is a she. I mean that she is a gal. I guess we may never know. What’s not up for debate is that Zombie is without doubt a Mossad agent. Or maybe a CIA agent doubling as a Mossad agent acting as a blogger?
Miriam, hun, it’s time to up the dose again.
“Anyway, I’ve always had a hunch that he is a she.”
You never can tell with Mossad agets. They’re masters of disguise.
“He is a She”? Dang, that just about double the number of suspects!
Yes, we are masters of disguise. I am currently staked out in Principal Skeeziks le Grouce’s bathroom. I am disguised as a box of exlax.
Personally, I think Zombie’s essays are great. I’ve been following for years as well and have never had a dull moment.
I appreciate the company, but really, one Larry Craig in the world is enough.
Another uprising, complements of your community organizer.
#10 Dave: Mossad agent? i think you are right. I saw how they bungled an
assisnation in the Emirates, remmeber, fake wigs, fake passports
may be this cop is a mossad agent.. he murdered someone but did it sloppy!
just like those agents, this cop f…..ed up.
Congratulations!
Because you have successfully spelled “Mossad”, and came real close on “remmeber”, you win a cookie!
Bungled? They killed the guy right? Didn’t get caught? Pretty nasty fellow IIRC, just like Grant. Take the side of the gangstas because you don’t have to deal with the drugs and violence in that area do you?
Nah, it just that in miriam’s world, anyone killed by a jew is innocent.
As is anyone who murders a Jew (in miriam’s world).
I think the real question, was he shot at point blank range? If not, the agents probably weren’t jews.
If you don’t get caught, you didn’t do it…slick how that works…
Miriam,
Let me remind you that the killing in the Emirates was a success after all. Did they want to kill him—–yes. Did they get it done——-yes. Sounds successful to me. By the way, I talked to the local Mossad agent and they are very aware of you.
Why would any sane person continue to live in that area?
At last count 27 remained.
Riots in Oakland, ya think? You’ve gotta remember you’re dealing with the type of morons who’ll riot over a stupid Raiders football game! This firestorm is going to make “Rodney King” look like a schoolyard scuffle, these mouseminds are going to burn themselves out of house and home! Hey, I wonder if Mayor Gavin “Sanctuary City” Newsome will open the doors of SF to the newly self-displaced homeless from across the bay? Now that would be something to see, eh? I hear the 49′ers are going to suck this year, so maybe San Francrisco will be the next NorCal cesspool to get torched?
I hope that everyone in that area who isn’t a hoodlum, is stocking up on food and ammo. They are going to need it. Hopefully they will announce the release of the verdict a few hours ahead, so that those who aren’t planning on rioting can get home safely.
Dave: greetings from the big apple!! thank you! I am laughing my A….off!!!
The question Californians ought to be asking is, why did it ever get to this point? Are there no adults, judges or prosecutors, who would stand up and say, absent any evidence of premeditation, there will be no murder charges?
This exemplifies pathetic. Jerry Brown is running for governor? I lack the vocabulary to describe this travesty.
I want to thank California for keeping New York from being the laughingstock of the entire country. We’re bad, but not as bad. Sorry.
This is the Bay Area. Pandering to loonies is just about the only skill set left.
The liberals who’ve been running the state for decades have spent so much effort over the years in perverting and corrupting the mechanisms of state government to achieve their partisan ends that nobody trusts the system anymore. They’ve seen justice perverted by the powerful so often that they’ll just figure this is another instance.
I hope the riot spreads across the bay into San Fran. This will be fun to watch, and nobody at the local, state, or federal level has the backbone to stop it.
I predict there won’t be any sympathy riots in San Francisco. First, the victim wasn’t gay. Second, 99 percent of San Francisco’s street violence is due to black or hispanic gang banging. Third, the victims of the gang banging are typically other gang bangers or family members.
Oh – I don’t sympathy riots – I want the actual Oakland rioters to cross the bridge and start burning and looting SF – Berkley too. The self-righteous leftists there can either let it happen or hammer them with the law.
During the LA riots, they tried to cross Wilshire into Beverly Hills – the line of Beverly Hills cops with loaded rifles and shotguns convinced the looters otherwise. I doubt the SF police would do the same.
Maybe it’ll come to LA. Wouldn’t that be fun? The last riot cost us 51 dead.
is anybody else out there old enough to remember the National Lampoon comedy album? must have been about 1974. a Joan Baez impersonater sang a song about rioting that went:
“Pull the triggers, n***ers, we’re with you all the way,
Just across the bay…”
a wonderful image of those Marin County idjits cheering the dark people on from the comfort and safety of their million-dollar homes.
The riots will happen because the Race Baiters like Sharpton and his ilk have been instigating. They want a riot.
Innocent people will die because the nutless, PC Law Enforcement officials will not allow sufficient force to be used to control the riots. The perps never die, it’s the innocent, and mostly Black residents. But who cares about them, they’re only N****r cannon fodder.
If they really want to save lives, the police need to shoot arsonists on sight, shoot agitators on sight, and keep the rioters confined to their own neighborhoods. It will be bloody, but it will save the lives of the innocent cannon fodder. They killed what, fifty people in the Rodney King riots, and ruined how many thousands of lives? A couple dozen well placed shots would have saved them.
We won’t do it. We haven’t the balls.
Is it me or is there an influx in the blogosphere of idiots trying to acuse & drag Israel into every bad subject they can find?
Me thinks it is the O-bots trying to set the scene for the abandonment of Isreal by this administration.
Well, if Oakland folks riot, I sure hope the cops stay home. Can’t understand people destroying their own communities. What dummies.
it won’t be THEIR HOMES….it will be the area around the court house…businesses they can steal from because of the verdict..you know..a little run through the jungle at another person’s expense.
I agree they should go across the bridge to the bosom of liberals that allow these things to go on.
Lets hear Jerry splain this one…
Under pressure like a riot type situation, it is entirely understandable that a guy might not pause to think about which tool he has pulled out, especially if design and location are similar. One can be CERTAIN of having done the right thing, and still discover to his horror that he has done the exact WRONG thing. Think about that umpire in the perfect game fiasco.
That said, extra thought needs to go into all of it– taser design, location on officer, training to differentiate, all of it.
This guy was horrified. He did not MURDER anyone. The same crowd would organize a riot-type gathering to CHEER if the man had removed the cop’s weapon and shot him with it. And the same store windows would be broken and the same merchandise stolen.
My understanding is that the Taser holster is on an officer’s left, their gun is on their right. For most officers that is enough of a difference, but the consequences of the rare exception can be deadly.
I don’t think redesigning the Taser is a good idea, a pistol is shaped the way it is because of hundreds of years of design evolution to perform the task of drawing, pointing, and firing accurately. A change in design would compromise those characteristics, and training to use the new design would introduce more confusion in crisis situations about which aiming method to use with which tool.
Of course, since it’s such an obviously bad idea, it will probably be required by law in California very soon, its legislators having already solved all the other state’s problems.
The taser can be holstered wherever the officer and department is comfortable with it. I have seen officers with a thigh holster just below their service pistol.
Sadly, Taser Intl/ changed the design about 12 years or so ago. The original design (and no, im NOT talking about the powder-actuated 1970′s TASER) looked like a flashlight, same cartridge design. When they first went to the Pistol shape I thought it was a bad idea, and I havent changed that. HOWEVER, the simple fact remains that there are maybe a dozen incidents like this, in hundreds of thousands of Taser uses. While I understand the reasoning behind the design change (easier to train) IMO in this case they should have left well enough alone, especially since frankly it’d be a lot easier to put the damn thing on a belt if it was shaped differently. as far as OPD and SFPD, they’re screwed no matter what they do. if they are held back to “Not Exacerbate an already bad situation” like Gates did in LA, they’re to blame when the Manure hits the fan, if they Let them actually DO their Job, they’ll be sued into bankruptcy becaise the “Cops were Abusive”. I dont envy those guys a bit.
Oakland deserves everything it gets. A quick look at the people that have been elected there is all you need to know about why this will be happening and why it is well deserved. Another quick look at their school system and the lack of education going on will also inform. And another look at the rampant lawlessness that pervades the city and surrounding areas will scare the hell out of most people, black or white. I quit driving into any surface street in Oakland, after dark, years ago.
Last time I was looking for work, I was contacted by several companies in the Bay area about doing an interview. Turned them all down.
Was the commute to far from the real world where you currently live to never never land?
It is my opinion that the officer committed negligent homicide. It is my opinion that there is something inherently flawed in designing a taser to look and handle like a gun, and make it so easy to mistake one for the other, as occurred.
It is also my opinion that the culture and society of the Oakland area is vile and disgusting, occupied by knuckle dragging neanderthals who use incidents such as this as a convenient excuse to vent their anarchic hatred of authority. There must be something in the water or air that makes Californians so…”peculiar”
There is simply no place in American society for the ghetto trash culture that has contaminated communities across the country
Its all smoke and mirrors………
In my experience as a firearms instructor, far, FAR too many cops are completely ignorant to the proper use of firearms. This is a systemic trend, across every agency and department I have worked with, and around. (which includes the top 10 metro area police departments, FBI and DEA)
Only when the public outcry in predominantly minority neighborhood/victim shootings is loud enough will the department “respond”….
and its always the same smoke and mirrors…
Criminal murder/manslaughter charges they KNOW will not stick, when the REAL issue should be a very indignant public asking “you ignorant jackass, WHO taught you to do THAT!”
Several “outrageous” shootings in my area over the last few years consisted of 50+ shots fired at single (and often unarmed) suspects, with most resulting in less than 5 contact wounds (a miss ratio of over 90%).
Only one, the incident in NYC where the unarmed groom was shot the night before his wedding, resulted in any action. And again, it was the wrong charge.
They (correctly) were found not guilty of attempted MURDER, but they WERE guilty of being ACTUALY STUPID in their employment of arms. But there was no such angle to the investigation. The department wasnt interested in the truth (these guys are incompetent) or fixing the problem (we dont teach weapons skills)
The department brass all know this. Firearms training a joke in most agencies. When their crappy training does manifest itself on the street, its smoke and mirrors…ignore it, or when the heat is on, throw the idiot to the mob on an impossible to prove “murder” charge,
That way, you dont have to answer for you piss poor LEADERSHIP and crappy TRAINING.
i have to agree with you on the training.i worked for an undisclosed department where i live and the instructors constantly emphasized that the training they did was a joke but that it was all they were allowed to do. seems that real or even sub-par training would leave the department liable if someone got a fatal shot. so everyone was trained as little as possible so no one could say that the officer was trained to shoot, why didn’t he aim for the body instead of the head. sad but true.liability rule the department. your not allowed to do the job you dreamt of because you are too well trained,even when you aren’t.
I was in law enforcement for 32 years and taught firearms, cqb, less lethal munitions etc… When I indicated a few flaws in the firearms program the boss said how can we fix the problems. I explained in great detail how to fix the problem and the added cost requirement. He responded to me by saying, ” it would be cheaper to pay the victims family or the police officers family, then to spend all this money to fix the problem “. I am so glad I am retired so I don’t have to deal with idiots like my former boss.
“Why would any sane person continue to live in that area?”
Where I live is great…wouldn’t want to live in Oakland though (been there, done that).
No crime here, no crowds, all I can see looking out my back window is a whole lot of trees. And, the weather is better than anyplace I’ve ever been, except Hawaii.
California, and the Bay Area, rules…if you’re in the right part of it.
Hey Moderator, Truth hurts eh?
If there are riots, this may be the tipping point for Oilbama.
Officer Dunphy where are you? yoooo hooooo……
I was a ground zero during the L.A. riots. I lost a third of my customers due to destroyed/burnt out buildings (almost 6,000). People that are handed things are like small children, they do not understand the consequences till after the fact then complain their mom has to walk 5 miles to the store instead of 2 blocks like she used to.
Believe it or not, people burning down their own town will actually cleanse the place for the long haul in a perverse kind of way.
It’s like my grandfather used to say, “There are two kinds of people, the ones that will spend a dollar or two a month to water their yard, and those that won’t.”
Oakland does not have a lot of watered lawns you know…
I have to strongly disagree with you on this zombie… did you watch the video?
The ppl being arrested were NOT resisting, the cops were however actively attacking them and being as forceful as possible in arresting them… THATS PRETTY DAMN CLOSE MALICE.
This malice directly lead to a 2 pronged failure of self control. AFTER the person was cuffed the officer pulled a weapon… either a TASER or a GUN is considered lethal force in most states…. NEVER SHOULD HE HAVE GONE FOR HIS TASER OR GUN. The person was cuffed and the ground period. THERE WAS NEVER A TIME IN WHICH HE LEGALLY COULD HAVE USED THE TASER. Had he drawn his taser instead of his gun and shot him he should have gone to jail for tasing the person in question. However in his malice and want to inflict pain on this person who was cuffed on the ground he mistakenly draw his gun… and killed the person.
This is malice aforethought defined….
malice aforethought n. 1) the conscious intent to cause death or great bodily harm to another person before a person commits the crime. Such malice is a required element to prove first degree murder. 2) a general evil and depraved state of mind in which the person is unconcerned for the lives of others. Thus, if a person uses a gun to hold up a bank and an innocent bystander is killed in a shoot-out with police, there is malice aforethought.
So now the question is does the Taser cause great bodily harm…. If the roles were reversed and this was a cop dead on the ground 70%+ of the DAs in the country would be screaming up and down YES YES IT DOES.
While you can argue those DAs are wrong(and they would be) they make up the vast majority of the DAs and you thus create a huge double standard between citizens and “elite citizens” aka cops. A cop is suppose to be held to the same standard as every other citizen period. The fact they aren’t is causing many problems throughout the US. This guy should get at least 10 years for this at least. The massive negligence involved is beyond belief and those other cops on that platform should be fired. The behavior of all the police in that video DIRECTLY caused this event. They acted completely unprofessionally, did not use any training they were taught to keep themselves safe or anyone else, it very easily could have been some person in the train that took that bullet as it bounced around in the station.
If these ppl the cops were arresting were dangerous in even the slightest all those cops would be dead. They made so many mistakes and poor decisions through the video its hard to believe they are even cops at all. At any time had these ppl being arrested chosen to fight back those cops would be dead right now. They in no less then 3 different time all but handed they’re guns to the ppl they were arresting. This behavior can only be explained in one of two ways. Either these officers felt completely safe arresting these guys or they felt completely safe and are completely unprofessional and felt like attacking these individuals. Either way the cops are solely at fault here.
Involuntary Manslaughter at best. not murder. there was no premeditation.
However, the riots will certainly do wonders for california. Especially when the rioter find the the store owners are armed and will use deadly force to protect what they have built.
A riot in Oakland would probably put kaput to Mayor Moonbeam’s chance to play once more at being governor. When you add “fiddling while his town burns at the hands of his clients” to “medfly,” you get “simply unreal.”
You know to me, it did look like the cop thought he was using a less deadlier weapon, as with a gun don’t you raise it up higher for aiming and use two hands mostly, give a last warning, but isn’t a taser is held closer, down on the trunk of the body? Understand there is no need to have eye level in using either of these weapons but doesn’t your partner need to know where that shot came from and from whom exactly, as well, no?
Just wondering… he does seem surprised as heck.
Maybe he shouldn’t be a cop again agree but he shouldn’t be found guilty of anything more than accidentally shooting someone and causing death in carrying out his duties as a police officer to the best of his abilities – which were found to be defective here agreed.
So he’s not a good cop, due to inability, poor training, or whatever, so remove him from policing; but to punish with a prison sentence in this case is wrong and two wrongs won’t ever make it right. Putting improperly or inadequate cops in jail for making mistakes that result in the loss of life, is worse than the latter – threats of riots. Be like the police giving into the criminal element. May justice prevail.
American police are out of control.
That is the issue, not the merits of this one particular case among thousands.
They are trigger-happy with the real guns and also use the tasers for torture.
America is out of control…
Sounds like a Rhapsody about Blue.
9. Thomas_L…. The Taser is designed like a pistol, there is little to distinguish between them by feel. My department carries both Tasers and Sig-Sauer pistols. Contrary to Root ’83′s allegations we did extensive training when we began issuing the Tasers as the similarities were a cause of concern. In ten years we have never had an incident where a person was shot by accident.
I can’t speak for the level of training of other agencies but we have in-house firearms instructors (and we are a relatively small department) I can’t imagine that he has been hired by the FBI or DEA or top ten metro agencies to conduct weapons training, just sayin’
All our cops meet MCOLES standards every twelve weeks or they don’t work, it’s that simple.
38. Gershwin; “American police are out of control”
An interesting assertion, please provide some supporting evidence or you will end up going into the “Permanently Ignore” file with Robotech Master. Say an even dozen or so cases where cops have shot somebody out-of-hand or have Tasered somebody for fun would make you a lot more creditable.
If you don’t know (and I’m sure you don’t) the Taser records every discharge, there are little paper strips that are discharged when it is set off, they must be collected and turned in with the used unit, The device records how many charges are delivered, at what time and for how long, each and every time it is used. An officer cannot use it at will without having to explain to his supervisor what happened (in my department you better have somebody in custody for resisting arrest if you used it!).
If there is a Police Department that is using them as you suggest I would tell you to get in touch with the FBI and the ACLU.
lol anton enjoy your ignorance and supporting gang members while those of us who have sworn an oath to defend the US Constitution do so…. vs enemies foreign or domestic…
And 95% of the rioters won’t be out there over Oscar or the cops or the hjustice sytem any more than the vast majoity of the Rodney King looters. Memorable quote: “Free shit! Get some!”
By the way, what injustice were the LA rioters protesting the night the Lakers won?
It sounds like the TASER could use a little design improvement. It’s already, by it’s nature, an electronic weapon, with a battery and probably a microprocessor on board. It would be relatively simple to have it sense the change in capacitance when your hand contacts it and to come forth a distinctive GLEEP noise or some such thing. I wouldn’t have thought that the TASER was easy to mistake for a firearm, but I’ll leave that to the folks like Anton, who is in a position to know better than I do, and to the jury, who are sworn to deliver a fair verdict.
To Anton, if you don’t mind, under what circumstances do you carry a round in the chamber as a matter of policy, and is the safety normally on or off? Do your weapons have a double safety like an Army automatic, and are they single or double action? I’m trying to understand the issue of mistaking the weapons by feel.
When tasers first came out they had a look and feel very very similar to pistols. This issue was pointed out and true mistake were made(though rare). The taser companies changed the way the tasers look and feel to prevent any of these rare mistakes from happening. Very very few police departments use the older tasers. The new taser(which 90% sure is what said cops in video are using) are virtually impossible to mistake for a pistol… unless your in full panic or rage mode. Its takes some insanely poor training to even bring the possibly of mistaken a modern taser for a pistol. This guy was reaching for his taser but because he was so busy timing about how much fun it was going to be to taser this guy on the ground he mistaken grabbed he pistol and pulled the trigger.
He was to busy thinking of the fun of inflicting pain on the person to be paying attention to doing his job… which anyone can see from the video all the cops in there were doing the same. Much of this is because they knew none of the ppl were going to resist so they could do whatever they wanted. This of course created and then compounded the event.
We carry Sig Sauer P220′s (.45 cal large-frame semi autos) there is a round in the chamber all the time, no external safety at all on the weapon, internal safeties prevent discharge unless the trigger is pulled all the way. The weapon functions in both single and double action modes.
The Taser has a grip and trigger assembly that is very close to the design of a semi-auto pistol. Take a look at the Taser website; http://taser.com/PRODUCTS/LAW/Pages/TASERX26.aspx and the Sig Sauer website; http://sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=94 and you can see the similarities of the portion that you would be touching when reaching for the weapon when deploying it. I’m not sure what pistol the OPD carries, the most common other weapon is the Glock which has a very similar shape; http://www.glock.com/ and is made with a plastic frame making identification by touch even harder.
It has the same beavertail above the hand-grip and the same arragement of the grip vs trigger position. This is the issue we raised with our department when they were first issued and is the reason we spent a LOT of time on training before we put them on the road. Taser has made efforts to differentiate the unit from a pistol, most of these cues are visual (the colors and shape of the unit) and would not be apparent by touch.
In my opinion the kid panicked and drew what he thought was his taser and discharged his weapon inadvertantly. This could mean many things, a failure to train adequately is probably the most likely, a easily frightened personality another, either way the Department in question has a lot of things to answer for; why did they not train the officer properly? why did they not screen out the inadequate officer before he became a danger to others?
Ultimately people that need to answer these questions are the citizens of Oakland; Why don’t we have a proper police department? why don’t we demand that they train/screen/equip officers adequately? why don’t we take the time and trouble to ensure that things are done right BEFORE a tragedy occurs? why would we not bother to raise our kids properly rather than let them roam like wild animals and end up in a brawl on a transit platform?
As to the overheated comments regarding what sort of offense occurred all I can say is this; check the law. I know CA is the land of “fruits and nuts” and has some pretty screwed up laws on the books but I’m sure the law for murder is based on common law and is what is called a “specific intent” crime meaning that the prosecution must prove that you intended to commit the crime when it occurred. Unless they can prove that he intended to kill the subject they don’t have a case. Unless a “lesser included offense” instruction is given to the jury they MUST aquit if they do not find the specific intent portion to have been proved.
Sorry about the over-long reply but the devil really is in the details.
All of that graffitti is by one person. Real mass movement, there.
Few riots occur at low temperatures, therefore, this trial really should have been held in the winter.
Anyone want to place a bet on who’s side Diaper Jesus will come down if the verdict is anything less than what these riot-happy gangbangers want???
If you like Obama’s deliberate and calculated non-reaction to the BP oil disaster, just wait until theres 1,000 thug lifers committing deadly street violence masquerading as “a cry for racial justice.”
Oakland is represented by two of the most radical leftwing race bigots in the country in Mayor Ron Dellums and Congresswoman Barbara Lee.
Worse yet, the Oakland City Council and Alameda County Board of Supervisors are as likely as not to end up as enablers and defenders of any rioters if god forbid this potential grenade does go off.
I hope it does not and that there is a shred of decency and sanity left in the City of Oakland. Having spent plenty of time in that town tho, I am sad to say decency and sanity were chased out by decades ago by the likes of Ron Dellums and Barbara Lee.
“White kids from the ‘burbs.”
Since when is Berzerkley the ‘burbs?
You see a lot of interesting things out in the ‘burbs (Orinda, Moraga, Lafayette, etc.)…but, not a whole lot of anarchists rioting.
Funny thing, when I lived in Berkeley and Oakland I had to have five deadbolts on my front door, and in the bad parts of town I’d get lulled to sleep by the soothing sounds of sirens, screams and gunshots.
Never experienced any thing like that that when I lived in Walnut Creek.
I always thought the Korean shop keepers had the right idea during the L.A. riots.
Punks like terrorists only understand one thing. And I’ve found whether punch or bullet, when hit back or return fire whizzing by the head, the message comes across abundantly clear.
Let them know there are easier victims.
Self defense and the right to defend property with lethal force are the backbone of a lawful society. The reason why these morons riot is because they know its completely safe and they can loot and pillage without any punishment. In fact in many area like chicago the police spend most of there time protecting the criminals by oppressing lawful citizens. This leads to the idea that they(the criminals) have free run once they out number the police(which they can easily do)… and thus you have rioting without punishment. The police/government are as much to blame for this rioting as the criminals. They all but openly encourage these criminals to riot by doing everything possible to enable them… and should the rioters be hurt or killed by lawful citizens protecting they’re property/themselves it won’t be the criminals going to jail… no they will get off free and sue the person for huge sums of money…. chances are the city/state/police will charge them with a crime as well and put them in jail.
What a disingenuous description! He was not killed the midst of a “melee”. The video shows very clearly that he and his friends were already lined up against the wall, fully under the control of the police officer. Grant was shot in the back. Mehserle looked like his was reaching for his handcuffs, not even the taser.
That said, I don’t think it’s murder. He did not intend to kill Grant. It was a mistake. Murder requires intent. I could see involuntary manslaughter though, and if that’s the verdict, then I think there’s still time to be served, and I don’t see the basis for a riot.
That said, however, the majority of the “rioter” do not need any kind of a basis, other than an opportunity, so I suspect there would still be problems.
Involuntary manslaughter can’t be the decision because that is not what he is being tried for. If they would not have insisted on a murder charge like they did most likely he would’ve been found guiltybut inbstead since they insisted on murder most liely he will be found not guilty.I hope anyone living in that area that does not want to be caught up in this will be ready when it happens.Once a riot starts it quicly turns into a mob mentality and most of the participants will act like wild animals.
Actually,..although the charge is “murder”, the Judge can allow the jury to bring back a “manslaughter”, because a manslaghter charge is a “lesser” charge than murder. On the other hand, if the charge, had been manslaughter, then the judge could not allow a murder conviction,..Also, if the jury convicts, on any charge, & the judge disagrees with the conviction, the Judge can set aside the conviction, & order an aquittal,..In short, a judge can lower the penalty that a jury arrives at, but cannot raise it,..
You have to touch a person with a Taser to subdue him/her. A gun can be shot without touching. So why did the officer pull the trigger? He got it confused with a Taser? I don’t think so. I think this is very definitely negligent homicide, voluntary manslaughter at the least.
Law enforcement tasers have a range of over 20.’ The electrodes will penetrate most street clothing. There’s a civilian version that has 15′ wires. Info is available at taser.com
If the rioters go after anyone it should be straight to the BART administration building and find the real, negligent culprits – the moron(s) who bought TASERS SHAPED and fired LIKE HANDGUNS. DOH! Tasers used to be completely different…. on purpose … you KNEW what you were holding BY FEEL…. you didn’t NEED to LOOK.
To Oakland BURN BABY BURN AND GOOD RIDDANCE.
Will a riot over this matter bring peace or justice to anyone?
I imagine sunrise will find several people resting in peace.
So what is it about the practical applications of the Berkeley ethos don’t we understand? Oakland and Berkeley, what, five miles apart? With the kindling in Oakland and the fire in Berkeley, isn’t this eruption a foregone conclusion?
Okay, Moonbeam isn’t currently mayor of Oakland, but his political base remains the same. I am guessing the voters will remember that.
memo to thugs, punks and vermin in general: hey, you’re not supposed to be in a melee and stop regular people from going about their business or put them in harm’s way. the cops will come and you could get shot in the head or punched in the eyes and go blind or end up a crip.
I see here that lots of people think that the officer probably should do some time, even though he might not be guilty of murder. Nobody is asking this: was he following whatever kind of standard procedure police training requires for this kind of situation? Was he doing something that might have caused this situation? Can any of this be proven? Tragic mistakes happen, and the people who make them are not always incompetent. I think it is best that we give some benefit of the doubt to officers (and soldiers) who find themselves confronted by a large and potentially violent mob, and must try to make it out alive without killing any of the aggressors.
The black culture at large will always be stuck in tribalistic reactionary warfare with issues like these until the time that they learn to embrace personal responsibility and reason, until then they will continue to follow the path of entitlement/victim mentality and knee jerk violence and NEVER move forward.
Uh if everyone is so sure that a riot is coming why isn’t anyone trying to contact Barry the messiah and have him intervene and quell the violence. After all wasn’t it Barry himself who said that he was going to be bringing us all together again? Maybe he can convene another beer summit or maybe a “bong” summit given that it’s happening in California. Ah yes, peace, love, rock & roll and a few bong hits will surely quiet the crowd.
“…why isn’t anyone trying to contact Barry the messiah and have him intervene and quell the violence.”
Ummm, because everyone knows the current POTUS wants riots in the streets of American cities and he won’t do jack to try and stop them. I’m willing to go out on a limb and say that if the animals do riot, Barry will say something to show his support. It will be a highly coded message, but we will all know what he means. Kick back and grab some popcorn.
Good on you, Mehserle. Don’t feel horrified. Shame on the population that makes you even think you need to say your sorry. People riot, they take their chances. They had a chance to stop. Before tasers, you’d have been justified in shooting, so why not now? Bunch of whiny liberals is the only reason they’re thinking about charging you. You not only shouldn’t feel guilty, but you should be proud of defending your fellow officers. Shame on those who trained you to be a wimp, top think tasering was actually a option. It’s time to go back to paying the price for your actions. Threaten to trash a neighborhood, harm a police officer, then you take a chance of getting shot. When the cop says “stop or I’ll shoot”, and you move, you are dead to me, and the world, and nobody should spend one MOMENT agonizing over your death.
Well..first when gangs of thugs start brawling and fighting, what should police officers do? Lawlessness in this country has gone wild. Gangs everywhere, as graffiti shows. Seeing as how people now, cannot control themsleves and their emmotions, it looks like Old Uncle Sam will. The federal government is poised to take over total control of this country, with these STUPID retalliatory measures being strewn all over if not giving the murder verdict. These have never worked and only promote more distrust and anger on both sides. Stupidity breeds stupidity. Learn from actions taken by others, and then think before you ACT! Never get into a lawless activity, there are consequences.
If this wasn’t a police officer we were talking about, the man would have been convicted of murder some time ago.
“Deliberate indifference” comes into play here. If the officer didn’t check to see what weapon (and a Taser is a weapon*) was being used but knew he was carrying a gun, then he was an idiot. This doesn’t have anything to do with his job or training or even intent. Most drunk drivers who kill people didn’t intend to kill anyone, but they drove with deliberate indifference to the others on the road and often get many years in prison.
*Don’t believe me? Try one out on your local public officials or police officers sometime and see what they think!
I know that this isn’t an issue of first-tier importance … but the fallout from this verdict seems extremely likely to decide the fate of the Oakland Athletics, in light of that club’s current ambiguous ballpark situation. If riots break out, the Athletics will relocate wherever they have to, but relocate they shall. Good job, Oakland!
Uh, no.
California law does NOT require premeditation for a killing to be considered a murder. It requires only “malice aforethought”. Premeditation is one form of malice aforethought.
Another form is “when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart” (Usually, the letter of the law is graceless and flat; once in a while, it’s poetry.)
If (a big if) the jury considers the use of the taser to constitute excessive force and sufficiently so as to reach the level of “malignant”, then yes, a guilty verdict is appropriate.
There’s no question that cops in general have been a little quick on the taser-trigger lately. It’s entirely possible that the thoughts that went through Mehserle’s mind were, “This jerk is not respecting my authoritay! I find him guilty of one count of Contempt of Cop and sentence him to a good tasing. Here you go, bro. Oops.”
It’s sheerest happenstance that the death resulted via a weapons-handling mishap, rather than a cardiac condition, but it shouldn’t affect the verdict, one way or the other.
Burn, Baby Burn!
Murder one needs to prove planning and intent. Murder in the second degree, however, isn’t so stringent. The difference between manslaughter and murder 2 is that murder 2 involves some kind of motivation, where manslaughter is a complete accident. the only burden for murder two is whether or not he acted recklessly and without regard to human life. Now, I haven’t been following the case as closely as others, but I think a murder in the second, and about 25 years in prison is right in this situation. If I “accidentally” mistook my service pistol for a taser and used the defense, “i was only trying to electrocute him and incapacitate him” it wouldn’t fly. And I think the police, trained in crowd control and, one would imagine the control of their weapons, should be held to a higher standard. If the cop had accidentally hit him with a car, or had been engaged in a gun fight and a stray hit someone, sure maybe manslaughter would be appropriate. And I think the people are upset more because of this culture in many departments of the police getting away with things that would send anyone else to jail. And I’m sorry, I really don’t know how much I’m buying in to the guy accidentally drawing the wrong weapon. Maybe he thought he saw the suspect reaching for a gun or trying to grab a cops gun or something, but someone who walks around with these weapons on his belt (and occasionally takes them out to recharge or clean or whatever) day after day should have a pretty good idea which weapon is which. They don’t feel anywhere near identical in weight distribution, the grip is probably different… I’m just saying…
Ok, so with this fact before us it makes total sense that Oakland is about to lay-off 80 police officers!!?? That’s so California!
I am shocked at this really! After all that have seen in the media about the “Benifits” of pot, the fact Oakland is known as “Oaksterdam”, and to listen to Jerry Brown talk-what’s going on over in that dumpy city? If you listen to the pot people and Jerry Brown talk about Oakland, it is a freak’n “utopia” or “Garden of Eden”!
No, once again we see those we elect flat out lie to the public-of course their will be riots. The Urban idiots in California have this “mob mindset” and when the justice system works against them, and the “carzies of California” don’t agree or like it-they burn their own cities and communities. Makes sense to me!
This time however things maybe different-NO MONEY! There many not be money to rebuild what they burn down and destroy. The State is borke and 3 cities have already gone bankrupt (Vellejo, San Carlos, and Maywood-all broke). Los Angeles and San Francisco are all grappling with massive budget deficits-so where do they expect to get the money to rebuild.
Yea, let it burn-I guess people did not learn their lessons from all the post Laker Game riots, the 1960′s Riots and the 1992 riots in Los Angeles. In the end, the crazy people of California (AKA: LIBRAL MECCA), will blame the police for all the crime and “wrong” in thier communities-WAY TO GO CALIFORNIA!
There are too many undefined facts, from the article, to make any meaningful determination in this tragedy. The commentators, some, raise important issues, of fact, and law, which need further enlightenment. Example: the conduct of the victim. Why was he there? Did he elect to join an act of violence? If so, does he enjoy the same reasonable standard of personal safety in the melee, as a peaceable person? The conduct of the officer. How much training in lethal and less than lethal weaponry did he have? Where was his superior officer during the conflict? What was his immediate situational knowledge and orders? If his defense is error, the choice of the wrong weapon, is this reasonable? How much situational control had been established, when he used his weapon? Intentional homicide can be almost instantaneous, but instantaneous horror at an error is a strong defense.
I know mature police officers who regret the current ubiquitous lack of weapons training; it is no longer considered a key talent in raises, and promotions. Police, unlike all other governmental employees, are essentially needed for the application of force, up to and including lethal force. I am continually amazed, in these events, that the individual officer’s life and career are on the line, but his chain of command never sits on the razor. Thus he continuously carries life defining responsibilities, his and others, while his superiors do not,e.g. police chief, or mayor. Where were these leaders when death was near?
All citizens, or every color, have a right to be furious about incompetency or immorality which leads to wrongful death by police. But they must choose between the difficult struggle to improve society or burn it down.
Under Michigan law “…any group of five or more persons acting in concert to wrongfully engage in violent conduct…” can be declared a riot. This brings a change in a lot of circumstances as to use of force and the duty of the citizen to comply with a lawful order. I don’t know what the Cali law is but the crew on the transit platform sure look like a riot from Michigan’s point of view.
66. R. L. Hails Sr. P. E.
So right you are, “Where were these leaders when death was near?” probably asleep in bed, they certainly will not be sitting at the defense table looking at going to prison. From what I have heard of Oakland’s Mayor the city would be better served by the first homeless guy you could find.
Reading articles about gangs of Oakland thugs (unfortunately Black) targeting and assaulting elderly Asians for no good reason other than they can; I don’t see how this can turn out well. California authorities must decide if their state will die in chaos, blood and anarchy or they’ll drop the hammer on Thug Nation.
In 1971, at the heart of revolutionary zeal and madness in the USA, Governor Nelson Rockefeller ordered the New York State Police to retake Attica Prison with lethal force. Several hostages and 30 odd inmates died. It was widely condemned by the left ,but it put a damper on the violence of the time. What happens this time if riots start will be a portend of the future.
Couple of points.
First, the officer is described as looking down at the pistol. Had he drawn his weapon on purpose, wouldn’t he have brought it to eye level before he fired? I don’t think LEO’s are trained to “shot from the hip”.
Second, those of you, who can only think of blacks when rioting is mentioned; are either unaware of the riots that have happened after college sporting events (i.e., white college kids), or among Hispanics (I believe the last one was in DC), or you’re just too f**king stupid to have ever read a history book, or you’re just using the moment to bad mouth all blacks in general. In reality, during any type of urban unrest, the majority of the citizenry are home where it’s safe. No doubt, they’re expecting the same police protection as any other group of citizens. The people out looting, are the same hoodlum knuckleheads who make life miserable for the blacks who live in those same neighborhoods. They are no more representative of the majority of blacks in those neighborhoods, than the occasional bed linen wearing fool is representative of the majority of whites.
Since I work nearby, I’m going to head down to the demonstration the day the verdict is due. Then once a guilty verdict is revealed, I’m going lead the crowd in a chant of “The system worked! The system worked!”
Wish me luck.
Good Luck!
I do not wish you luck, Bart Jones. Stay away from the demonstration and stop looking for trouble. What happened was a terrible accident. Don’t make those business owners take the brunt of ridiculous violence by people like you. GROW UP!!!
As I understand it some of the rioters are from their own neighborhood and some are from other places. Problem is they think they can get away with it because they have in the land of liberals. A different example Texas and Louisiana. Conservative right to carry in Texas and a lot of armed people. The local library raffled off a shotgun for a fund raiser. I have not locked my house for 12 years and have never had anything taken. The black folks in my neighborhood don’t care that I am white and I don’t care that they are black, we wave to each other when driving by and behave just like neighbors do, watch out for each other etc. A hurricane hit Texas and everyone pulled together and began taking care of things so they could put their lives back together. They did post some signs saying looters would be shot, don’t recall hearing about any. What they did not do was moan and cry and expect the federal government to come save them. Louisiana, incompetent liberals with warning failed to do their evacuation plan, the residents laid around waiting to be rescued by others and when relief did show up it was never enough and when they weren’t waiting on handouts they were looting stealing and raping.Some of them came to Texas for hand outs and freebies.
It seems to me if you want to change the way people behave during a crisis you need to change the way the behave when there is not a crisis. It helps if they have some responsibility for themselves and take ownership of their community. If you don’t have anything invested in it of your own you take no pride in it nor do you care for it. California you will harvest what you plant. You set up a firm foundation and encouraged the entitlement culture, the stuff you planted is now bearing fruit.
The only thing that will save the country from the fools is to stop letting them run things.
72. jrob “It seems to me if you want to change the way people behave during a crisis you need to change the way the behave when there is not a crisis”
That pretty much nails it down! A toxic society cannot survive a crisis, or even an “event”.
Well, if these fine upstanding citizens decide to riot, I’ve got the best idea of all. Bring in the Guard. Not some untried unit, but one that’s just come back from Iraq. Nice n jumpy, ready to shoot at anything that moves funny. Give ‘em armored cars and Humvees with pintle mounted Ma Deuces and unlimited belts of ammo. Then for backup, some of that mil-grade riot gas.
IF YA DON’T WANT A CIRCUS FOR A GOVERNMENT, QUIT ELECTING THE FRIGGIN CLOWNS!
Oh…I left out this: Let loose a whole belt into the first row. When the fine outstanding idiots see how Mama Deuce cleans up her kitchen, they will head for the hills. Boo friggin hoo.
That graffiti all seems to be in the same hand.
For the record, officer Mehserle is a BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit District) cop, not an Oakland PD officer. BART officers, I am sorry to say, are more like mall cops. Oakland PD have their own problems, but BART police are a totally separate organization, with many of them working outside Oakland entirely. But it will be the Oakland PD, with help from surrounding city departments and Alameda and Contra Costa sheriffs that have to respond and deal with any rioting. They have already held at least one practice drill for this.
That’s what so many people fail to realize is that this issue really isn’t an Oakland problem–it’s a BART Police problem. If Les Mehserable had taken those kids off the train at the Orinda or Concord station instead of Fruitvale, would it still be an Oakland problem? I think team Mehserle rarely gets any real action and came upon this incident charged and ready to pounce. If Mehserle was threatened by a man lying face down with at least another cop assisting, why were 2 other cops facing outward towards other passengers–why weren’t they holding down this young man also. Instead, the first reaction if to go for the taser. Come on. I don’t there was intent to murder in this case, but there definately was intent to send a message and excessive and unnecessary force was used.
To the reply that I may not have been “hired” by ten different police agencies, and the FBI and DEA:
You are correct, I was not hired by all of them, but as a USMC and L/E Firearms Instructor for over 30 years, I have had the opportunity to work with various members of their training staffs at counless “instructor development” courses over the years. Everything from the FBI Academy at Quantico, to the Lethal Force Institute, to Gunsite Ranch, and dozens of various NRA sponsored Law Enforecement Firearms Instructor Courses all around the country.
These are not just “cops” that attend these courses, these are (supposedly) Police Training Instructors: The guys with the (supposedly) best/most proficient weapons handling skills, teaching ability, and evaluauation skills that various Departments have to offer. They are there to learn new/better training techniques to bring back to their “students” and departments.
My opinions are based on what I’ve seen:
Most treat this “training” as a vacation…a feather in their cap, and a piece of paper they really dont intend to do much with. A Department (read: taxpayer) paid junket with hotel, meals, and crates of “free” ammo to burn up for fun.
All tend to wear combat boots and BDU trousers with dozens of loose magazines piled into their cargopockets, regardless of how their officers may actually be dressed/equipped on the street.
If permitted, none will wear body armor, carry a flashlight, nightstick or other “incumberences” on the firing line.
Some who are unable to effectively draw weapons from department issued “triple threat” holsters will simply substitute various “fast draw” holsters or other non-standard web gear that does not reflect what they, or their officers, will actually BE WEARING when a deadly force encounter occurs. Although often understandably skeptical of these situations, the hosts of these development schools will usually allow them to “run what they brung” because the training has been PAID FOR.
Far, FAR to many “instructors” are completely incompetent “weapons droppers” when it comes to training with non-strong side, or single handed shooting. Many are obscenly out of shape, and simply TOO FAT to perform basic “wounded shooter” drills, like accessing a weapon with your “other” hand should you be shot/stabbed or otherwise disabled in your primary hand early in an encounter with a suspect.
Basic understanding of “domanint eye” or “cross dominant” hand/eye coordination of students, or even simply how to work with with “lefties” are poorly understood by FAR to many “instructors” I’ve worked with. Many attending “long gun instructor” training (shotgun, sub gun, patrol rifle etc)have no real prior experience with shoulder fired weapons of any kind.
These “instructors” I’ve described are the ones setting the training agenda in America, THEY are the ones recomending to their departments, and to their towns, what how and how much training their officers should recieve.
We recently lost two officers in the small town I live (not work) in, due to poor training. Thats 50% of our full time police force. A naked, unarmed punk took on two fully armed men of our profession in a hospital emergency room, and guess who won.
Next time you see 20 officers surrounding a car with weapons drawn and wonder the wisdom of a “circular firing squad”, or hear about 30 to 50 shots fired with only 2 or 3 hits, dont be surprised….
Stupid is as stupid does
77. The Root “83
I stand corrected, I trust you didn’t pass any of those yahoos. When I took the Firearms Instructors Course at the good ‘ole podunk Macomb Police Academy we had to wear all of our regular equipment and shoot in the 95% or better or we didn’t pass. We didn’t get to go on junkets, or stay in any hotel rooms, I still had to attend to my normal duties while I went to the class as extra duty and I drove home every night.
Maybe Michigan has higher standards or I am just lucky enough to work for an agency that gives a damn.
Just so you don’t think I am B.S.ing my agency ORI is MI6339400.
To all of the people making comments like “let Oakland burn” are you even considering the fact that there are people living in that city who are good people just trying to get by in life? When I finished college I was forced to move back to Oakland with my family because I have not been able to find a job that would allow me to support myself. I am not a violent person, I have done good things with my life…do I deserve to be worried about going home from work because of what might happen as a result of this verdict? I know that there are way too many people in Oakland who are violent and will take any excuse they get to riot…all I’m asking is that you consider people like me before you say things about letting Oakland burn to the ground.
How about a pre-emptive riot? Have everybody that isn’t black or Mexican grab their weapons and head down to the ghetto for a murder rape and pillage spree?
The cops could lead them. We can call it the Whiskey Rebellion. Oh, you say that name is taken? Then I’ll go with the Bart Blow-up.
Tiffany, welcome to the real world. Unlike the world you live in (the 4th world), good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.
Where your comfort level with violence is doesn’t matter to those that are violent.
Lets be reasonable, so long as Oakland provides bloggers with the chance to express maximum umbrage based on minimum facts, we will be happy.
The first step in having others care about you is caring about yourself. If you care about yourself, you will have your shotgun ready with plenty of shells. Water, MRE’s and some bandages in case a ricochet nicks you. Then when the riot is over, you can have a cold one and watch Ophra while waiting for the Department of Health and Human Resources to remove the body parts from your porch.
Riots can be fun! Approach it with a positive attitude. If you are going to do looting, start early. DON’T take your shotgun with you. National Guardsmen tend to get antsy about shotguns and rioters. Take your 357 and keep it out of sight. Unless, of course, you are disputing a particularly nice bit of loot. Then shoot first and aim low.
This guy should have never been put on trial period. When a bunch of gang bangers riot on trains and endanger others, getting killed is a risk they are taking when they endanger other peoples’ lives. Who knows who these thugs might have killed if the cops had not intervened. And, as far as that goes, these gangs are routinely murdering innocent people as well as other gang bangers. As far as I am concerned, this cop should be released with no charges, and all his back pay restored to him as well as money for damages while he has been in jail for doing his job. I bet when this punk was shot dead, accidentally or not, the gang bangers stopped rioting and resisting. This cop is acutally, an inadvertent hero.
As far as those mongrels in Okakland who look for anything to riot about, they ought to be forewarned, You Riot, you Might Die yourself. A riot is always an out of control mob and somebody always dies as well as they use it as an exuse to loot and burgle businesses and homes. The sane citizens of Oakland, if ther are any, ought to warn the punks that if they riot in their neighborhoods that the rioters and looters will be shot on the spot by citizens.
These California cities are totally insane and out of control. The Lakers win a ball game and these thugs go out and riot, plunder, loot and burn cars. The Lakers lose a ball game, the same result.
These insane California Punks use any excuse to riot, loot and plunder and what I have never figured out is why the decent citizens in California tolearate this crap.
And, what makes this citizen sick is that California Politicians elected to Federal Office, such as Pelosi, Feinstein, Miller, Boxer, Waters, and others bring this California Lunacy to The Federal Level and Infect the Rest of the Nation with their Insane Legislation and Regulations.
The rest of the USA ought to Vote California, Oregon and Washington State Out of the Union and leave them to the Illegal Invaders and Thugs that they harbor and give sanctuary status to. They have as official laws the Aiding and Abetting of Criminals. Californians who tolerate the insanity by their government officials and Thugs on the Street deserve what they get. If the decent citizens of California will not demand a responsible government out there, the rest of the country should not have to pay the costs of bailing them out.
It was a tragic accident Yes. But lets face it. It would have NEVER happened if the victim had not been acting a fool. This poor cop made a mistake and he has to live with it. I cannot even begin to fathom what is on his mind. But unfortunatly the black community has been brought up to enjoy violence and feel that they are oppressed even when the cause of their failure is themselves. And now they want blood. or more likely a free television as these things are just an excuse for gang bangers to pillage and burn and be lauded by the lame stream media as heroes. We better wake the hell up and fast. The good cops cannot protect us. the govt refuses to protect us and will do more to hinder us and help them. The govt will allow this all in the mname of social justice, because something bad happened many years before we were born. its time to start prepping for the real fight once the elections are over and nothing changes.
Zombie’s audience in a nutshell:
But lets face it. It would have NEVER happened if the victim had not been acting a fool. This poor cop made a mistake and he has to live with it. I cannot even begin to fathom what is on his mind. But unfortunatly the black community has been brought up to enjoy violence and feel that they are oppressed even when the cause of their failure is themselves.
Yep, act the fool and die. Hitler would have wept to see that his philosophy and world-view survived intact in post war America.
this is a great opportunity to buy great real estate cheap ..i mean the rioters only burn they’re own business and homes and neighborhoods…good people in… bad people out..next!!
Even by the fevered standards of logic common to this blog, that’s laughable. The only people affected by rioting in Oakland have been downtown businesses. You’re nearly as ignorant as Zombie; that’s a wake up call. Read a newspaper.
I am Oakland born and raised non black adult and although I do not live there anymore I still consider it my hometown. I am not prejudiced nor am I a bigot, but the fact that there is rioting over a policeman during the performance of his duty(to uphold the law)accidentally shooting a law breaking person is totally ridiculous. Parents: Teach your children to respect the law or work to have them changed! The fact that the victim was black and the officer was white should not matter,I dont believe that the officer decided that here is a “black one” that I can shoot. It needs to be dealt with for what it was, an unfortunate accident. I dont believe that there would be much media coverage nor riots if it had been a black officer and a white victim. Note: To you future “victims”, “a fool is a fool no matter what color you are”
Wow, lots of chatter in those responses about the Zombie’s predicted riots, practically all taking the prediction of “Level-5″ rioting in Oakland after the verdict as a given. Hey, that was a lot of hot air. Riots didn’t happen tonight after the verdict was announced, and likely won’t. What happened was first a fairly large and very peaceful demonstration with speakers using a microphone to talk to each other. After those people dispersed a little after dark a less sophisticated crowd showed up and started doing some vandalism and breaking of windows and looting at a couple of storefronts in one area of two or three streets in downtown Oakland. Not “Level 5″ riots, practically no one hurt, nothing on a more widespread basis at all.
And the earlier peaceful demonstrators by and large were not satisfied with the verdict — despite the blogger’s assertions it wasn’t open and shut that Mehserle had no idea he was using his gun — but they just showed up, made their objections known, listened to each other, and went home. So all that nattering on in the preceding comments about riots in Oakland, rioters, burning the city down, all that stuff — had no basis in reality. Just fiction. How about waiting to see what happens before jumping in to discuss it?
Also, Zombie’s descrip of what took place on the BART platform leading up to Oscar Grant’s death was misleading and wrong. He says “…several harassed BART police officers tried to subdue and then arrest dozens of brawlers. In the midst of the melee, one of the cops (Johannes Mehserle) pulled out a pistol and shot one of the men being arrested (Oscar Grant), killing him.” (!!!!)
Where to begin with this — there weren’t dozens of brawlers, there were a few, or perhaps several, but not more than one dozen of them. They were not harassing the BART officers, if anything it was the other way around. Some video footage showed one officer punching O Grant a few minutes before he was shot. That officer (Pirone) has been fired for this and past incidents of mistreating people, but he also testified at Mehserle’s trial. Why? Because he was the officer closest to both Grant and Mehserle when Mehserle shot Grant. This shooting did not occur “in the midst of the melee” at all — as anyone can see in the videos, three detained men, Grant being the middle one, are sitting with their backs against a wall when Mehserle walks up and pulls Grant out to a laying-down position on his stomach. Pirone walks up and puts his foot or knee on Grant’s neck and holds one arm. Then Mehserle pulls out his gun and shoots Grant in the back. This was not a chaotic, panicky, high-pressure situation. The guy was face down on the platform and was being held there by another officer. Mehserle had time to think, to check, to look at his weapon — all the time one would need. He didn’t take that time but it was available to him. Please at least keep the obvious facts straight.
PERHAPS IT IS BADLY TRAINED INDIVIDUALS IN PRESSURE SITUATIONS THAT NEED TO BE MORE STEELED AND OBSERVANT WHEN DEALING WITH THE PUBLIC. WE FEEL YOUR HEAT AND ANGST HERE, IN MIAMI. OUR RECENT WHITE-COP-SHOOTS-BLACK-CITIZEN INCIDENT COULD HAVE GONE THE WAY YOUR INCIDENT DID-AND ALL TO WELL, WE REMEMBER MIAMI UP IN FLAMES IN MAY OF 1980. IT IS MORE THEN THE INCIDENT-IT IS THE LONG HOT SUMMER, YOUTH WITH NO SENSE OF BEING ATTENDED OR LACK OF OPPORTUNITIES, AND THE ABYSMAL RESPONSE OF POLITICIANS TO A FAILING ECONOMY. LEBRON JAMES CANNOT MASK THE REAL PROBLEMS MIAMI FACES—ONE HURRICANE, AND THE FACADE OF CIVILITY COULD BE TORN OFF—UGLY THINGS COULD HAPPEN. CONSIDER-OUR SECURITY GUARD AGENCIES ARE A SHAM AND IN SHAMBLES; TRY GUARDING BUSINESS’S WITH A GROUP OF FOLKS TRADITIONALLY ABUSED AND NEGLECTED BY THE AGENCIES THEY WORK FOR—NOT MUCH PROTECTION! MIAMI HAS WEAPONS–CITIZENS HAVE CARLOADS-AND THE ARMORIES SELL AND TOUT THEM SHAMELESSLY. MIAMI MAY HAVE SPORTS-BUT THIS TOWN HAS BEEN ECONOMICALLY SHAMBLED AND I DOUBT THE HOOPLA WILL AFFORD IT A REAL UNDERLYING POSITIVE DIRECTION. THE NEWS IS VERY CONTROLLED, AND “THE NATIVES ARE RESTLESS”;; JUST MY OBSERVATIONS AS A LONGTIME RESIDENT. BY THE WAY, THE WEALTHY STILL THINK THEY ARE SITTING PRETTY IN THIS ECONOMIC MELT-DOWN.THEY ARE STILL TURNING ON THEIR OFFICE RADIOS AND CONVINCED THAT RUSH LIMBAUGH AND REPUBLICAN POLITICS ARE AN ANSWER TO EVERYTHING-THAT IS VERY NARROW AND FRAUGHT WITH ILLOGICAL ASSUMPTIONS. OUR TWO CITIES ARE NOT DISSIMILAR IN THEIR PROBLEMS……