Catholic-Jewish Solidarity for Religious Freedom
Under the headline “The Vatican’s Twisted Priorities,” the Italian journalist Giulio Meotti published an incendiary denunciation of alleged Catholic anti-Semitism in the March 16 edition of the Israeli news site Ynet. Meotti wrote:
In a special interview with Die Tagespost last week, Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem Fouad Twal, named by Pope Benedict to represent the Vatican in the Jewish State, declared that “Israel’s existence as such has nothing to do with the Bible.” He then compared Christians’ condition in today’s Jerusalem with Jesus’ Passion: “We Christians never forget that even our Lord himself suffered and was mocked in Jerusalem.”
Ynet should hire a fact checker: Fouad Twal represents not the Vatican, but the small and dwindling community of Arab Catholics in Israel and the Territories. The Vatican’s diplomatic representative in Israel is its ambassador, the Italian Archbishop Antonio Franco. That Arab Christians are Arabs before they are Catholic and maintain an implacable hatred for the Jewish State is nothing new. To survive as an Arab minority, they ingratiate themselves with the Jew-hatred prevalent in the Muslim majority. But there are only 120,000 Arabs among the 300,000 Christians resident in the State of Israel, and a growing number attend Catholic services in Hebrew.
The irremediable bitterness of the Arab Christians aside, the Jewish people have a friend in Rome in the person of the present pope, as they did with his great predecessor. As Assaf Sagiv, the editor of the conservative Israeli quarterly Azure, wrote after Pope Benedict XVI’s visit to Israel, “Benedict XVI—the former Joseph Ratzinger—is actually one of the best friends the Jewish people has ever had in Vatican City.” The Israeli columnist Aviad Kleinberg wrote at the time, “John Paul and Ratzinger buried once and for all not only the accusation of the Jews’ murdering the messiah, but the entire theological theory that the Christians replaced the Jews and are now the Chosen People and that the New Testament annuls the Old Testament. The Old Testament is still valid, declared the two, and the Jewish people is still God’s chosen and beloved people.”
This is important not simply as a matter of accuracy, but because lingering distrust and anger continue to undermine what should be a Jewish-Catholic alliance for religious freedom. As I argued in a February 19 post (“After they come for the Catholic Church, they will come for us”), the Obama administration’s attempt to force the Catholic Church to dispense abortion pills and contraceptives through health plans offered by its institutions violates the First Amendment. To argue that Catholic institutions should accept federal standards because they accept federal money is nonsense, because they have no choice but to offer health insurance under Obamacare. The haredi organization Agudath Israel backed the Catholic bishops, I reported, but not the Orthodox Union, the Modern Orthodox organization.
Applause
Ditto.
I agree. However, Jonathan Sarna is not orthodox. He taught for many years at Hebrew Union College which is a Reform institution. The only time that I know that he mentioned Orthodox Jewry was a decade ago when he lamented its growth and predicted its decline. He is in the tradition of the Reform movement’s patron saint, Stephen Wise, who hid facts about the Holocaust in order to help Roosevelt with the Jewish vote. There is nothing that Obama will do that Professor Sarna will not support.
Sarna was educated at an Orthodox day school and continues to identify as Orthodox; I met him when he was the main speaker at a Shabbaton at an Orthodox shul.
Excellent article, (as all of yours Mr Goldman) also viewed by an Jew in Israel. To round it up the diplomatic representative of the Vatican (in any country where diplomatic realtionships exist with the Vatican) is called Nunzio Apostolico, and is fully accredited by the government in each country, as any ambassador, with the same privileges.
While I agree in general, is the Vatican News Service still taking on an anti-Israel stance, like any other european country?
Also, the Church has a history of blackmailing Israel over minor issues, such as getting a terrorist-aiding prelate released. I think all of this was pre-JPII, so it would be good to know if this still occurs.
Finally, are they still officially pushing for the internationalization of Jerusalem?
– but still waiting for one of Fr. Schall’s pensive essays on this and what’s happening at Georgetown.
Modern Catholics favor Jews far more than any other church. Most Protestants would say that the election of the nation of Israel is about the ancient Hebrews from before Jesus, not the same as Jews, and far removed from the modern state of Israel. Arab Catholics admittedly have a bad case of revanchism and a dispossessed culture, but they can also be expected to have a much less soft view of their faith, as European Catholics.
They aren’t bad people. On the contrary, they are very high quality people. Yet, high quality people with 2-3 children are left in the dust when an excessively extended feast period, granted by technology, favors a quantity strategy. Arab Christians would thrive in the right environment.
You really don’t know much about this. The State of Israel would not exist without Christian Zionism, which is exclusively a Protestant current (including Lord Balfour).
Lots of people are disagreeing with me here, and I suspect it’s a generational issue. Mainline Protestants are no longer mainline, and the numbers keep getting worse. Evangelicals are the vast majority of Protestants now, and are not at all hesitant in wanting to convert anyone and everyone to their faith, including other Christians. Or else.
Opposition to Israel is just keeping with modern times for the sake of keeping up. At this point, it’s best to try to defend separation of religion and state, for the sake of defending religion. Jokers like Sarah Palin or Rick Santorum are a laughingstock even for people of faith under 40 now, and largely “win” solely by default.
The best wakeup call might be a visit to a black or Hispanic church. Not a mad house like Obama’s, but somewhere closer to that area. Not Episcopalian or Lutheran or Presbyterian or some other irrelevant, dying husk that was extremely important in the Truman administration. They’re hanging out with the Reform Jews playing bridge and bingo.
“Evangelicals are the vast majority of Protestants now, and are not at all hesitant in wanting to convert anyone and everyone to their faith, including other Christians. Or else”.
Or else what? … serve them white bread and mayo? Evangelicals are some of the nicest people I have ever met.
Or else they’ll be the ones cleaning the gutters in heaven, or something. Who knows. It’s the intent.
HG wrote: “Or else they’ll be the ones cleaning the gutters in heaven, or something. Who knows. It’s the intent”
That’s it, that’s the consequence? Noburning at the stake, expulsions, etc.? I’m ok with that. It’s the actions, not the intent that matter to me.
Agree with that! Evangelical Protestants are some of the strongest supporters of Israel. Christians don’t convert people “or else”; Higher Game must be thinking of the religion of peace, Islam.
Wow! The State of Israel would not exist without Christian Zionism? I am so blown away by this statement. It actually frighens me that Jews believe this. Supporting Israel is the right thing to do, after centuries of doing the wrong thing in so many ways, especially in the face of Islam’s goal to do away with Judaism and Christianity. Israel exists because the Jewish people made it exist fighting against virtually the entire world. The Christians are indebted to Judaism – Jesus was Jewish. I am grateful for Christian support of Israel, believe me, but we had better take responsibility for our own existence. History has proven that.
When putting forth such an argument, it’s best to give the impression that one has actually MET a Protestant.
Lovely reply. As an evangelical wholly supportive of the Nation of Israel, I don’t know anyone who isn’t.
Forced conversion to one’s religion is Islamic, not Christian. Anyone who would make such ridiculous claims has never read the New Testament.
I don’t find Protestants to be any less supportive of Israel than my fellow Catholics; dunno where you got that from.
Giulio Meotti has spewed anti Christian and particularly anti Catholic hared for a long time
Why is he still allowed a stage to preach such hatred?
Meotti is responding to spewed hatred from Arab Christians. He didn’t create the hatred. I don’t agree with his evaluation, but I can understand his point of view: he lives in Italy, where the Vatican bureaucracy in general is of the same stripe as the European Community bureaucracy, that is, anti-Israel.
An attack on religious freedom that is well past the conceptual stage:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2011/06/anti-circumcision-movement-anti-semitic-says-san-francisco-city-attorney
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/6064_12.htm
oh….. this is the important one:
http://mgmbill.org/
When I lived in Brooklyn I became friendly with a neighborhood shop-keeper, a refugee Arab Catholic. He was a teenager in 1948 and fled with his family ahead of the Egyptian army. He got a green card to the United States in the mid-1970s. Work in the USA was menial, but infinitely superior to being a refugee trying to find work in an Arab world which has its own prejudices.
This man was dignified and intelligent. Even though he had attended a prestigious Latin School in British Mandate Palestine, the 1948 war cast he and his family into poverty in Lebanon and derailed his educational plans to become a medical doctor. Despite his resignation, he still felt the loss of his potential acutely after 50 years.
I sometimes wondered if my friend suffered from Stockholm Syndrome. The 1948 attack which destroyed his family’s life and his future was initiated by Egyptians, not the Jewish people. (He said he remembered Egyptian radio telling the civilian population to flee or die). But he primarily blamed the Jewish people for the loss of his home and the ruination of his future. He spoke sincerely, but I could not understand why he did not blame the Egyptians.
Can it be that when a people exist as a precarious minority for 1400 years they adopt the viewpoints of their “masters”?
That’s part of it. Dhimmitude can become a habit–even a perverse sort of consolation. In addition, remember that much of the Mideast has been mired in a premodern state, and the local Christians aren’t exempt. Culturally, intellectually, and emotionally, they don’t reflect post-Enlightenment Western Christendom so much as they do the mediaeval sub-species that specialized in pogroms.
And don’t underestimate the power of pride. Middle Eastern Christians lived as vassals, as resigned “Untermenschen” to their Muslim overlords for 14 centuries. Suddenly, within a few decades, a (relatively) small number of expatriate Jews retake their homeland from Muslim squatters. They defend it against all comers, including the combined forces of several Muslim nations. To Mideast Christians, the question must occur: why weren’t YOU able to do that? The mere question has humiliating implications, and fallible human beings can seldom forgive being shown up on such a scale.
Just a heads-up, a little OT: the Pontifical Institute Notre Dame of Jerusalem Center is run by a pervert-worshipping cult that’s been masquerading as a Catholic order for the past 65 years or so. Keep your money and children well away from there. I don’t know why the Vatican let them be in charge of this, but JPII wasn’t the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to the LCs.
Jews and Christians share the same ethics; the Ten Commandments are the Foundation of both Faiths. Some scholars view Christianity as a continuation of Judiasm; both Jews and Christians pray to the One God, both value traits of kindness, humility, forgiveness, and The Golden Rule.
In a modern world beset with so many problems, is it not fitting that people of faith stand together for peace?
It is time for Jews and Christians who love the ideals of freedom, liberty and equality before the law to stand together. It is time to come together in the Sight of God, who has so Blessed us, to preseve America; His Great Gift to humanity.
Something else to consider. The history of Catholic-Jewish relations in the US is very different from the history of Catholic-Jewish relations in Europe. Most Jews and Catholics in the US descended from the great immigration during the Ellis Island era. The were both reviled by the WASPs as foreign invaders. When the KKK has it’s second life in the teens and twenties, Catholics and Jews were lumped in with Blacks as part of the hated other. So most American Catholics don’t carry the Old World prejudices around with them; their point of reference is how they were part of the same group from 100 years ago.
To the extent that some Jews still carry the Old World attitudes, it’s because their ancestors went straight from Ellis Island to the Jewish neighborhoods in New York, and never saw the bigger picture. More Catholics ventured into the rest of the country and developed a very different attitude, especially because of Klan activity.
Israelis, who descended directly from European immigrants, have no way of comprehending any of this. Europe is a completely different kettle of fish, and they’re still (especially in the East) loaded with antisemitism. It’s ironic that of all the major religious groups in America, it’s the Catholics whose experience resembles the experience of the Jews the most, and yet so few Jews understand this.
This is an excellent comment.
One must take into account that the American experience in this matter is quite peculiar.
I am rather surprised at the lack of historical perspective: Pope Gregory the Great and others in the Church did a great deal to ensure justice for the Jewish population. Had that not been so, Jews would be as rare as Cathars.
There were bans on forced conversion and such. Again, had that not been so Jews would be as rare in the West as they are in the Arabian Peninsula.
I further object to the anti-Christian trash written here. Were it not for the strong support of US Christians especially the Evangelicals, the Israel lobby would be a joke and Israel would so the way of Rhodesia.
The key for Israel is to take control of Judea and Samaria in any way possible. Israel is very silly, and does not know the enemy. Islam is a success gospel, and success is a sign of divine favor failure…. The Palies are despised because of their failure which is aided by Israeli Marxist politics.
In the end it is Israel which will die unless more wisdom and less love of ideology is shown.
I suggest your view of history is very distorted, much like those Muslims who think Jewish/Christian life under Islam was all roses. Whatever bans there were on forced conversion, the definition of “forced” did not necessarily include torture or intense persecution. See, for example, “Thy Brother’s Blood”, by a very loyal Catholic Scotsman (and Christian Zionist).
The reason there are Jews today is because of hunders of thousands who gave their lives rather than convert.
No argument with the rest.
Both Denver Bob and mzk1 are correct … and if anyone tells me they can’t both be correct then they are also correct.
I would be happy to engage Mr. Goldman in a debate about the Jewish complicity with Muslims in the persecution of Christians in Spain prior to the liberation in the 15th century.
Good grief. Who do you think financed the Reconquista? We made it possible for Los Reyes Catolicos to finish off the Moors, and got kicked out of Spain for our troubles. But if you must, see
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FF22Aa01.html
The Catholic church has an awful history when it comes to how they’ve treated the Jewish people. They need to come together.
Howard Gottlieb
http://www.easy-fundraising-ideas.com/programs/church-fundraising-ideas/
This is a terrific essay by Spengler and a delightful comment section. I’m not read well enough on the subject which is why I read Spengler. However, the oppression of minorities seems to be an observable phenomenon throughout the world and history. Spengler’s warning to Orthodox Jews is prescient I think. If Obama and his fellow secularists are successful in oppressing and usurping the Constitutional rights of Catholics they will surely come for ALL people of faith.
“If Obama and his fellow secularists are successful in oppressing and usurping the Constitutional rights of Catholics they will surely come for ALL people of faith.”
Wrong tense. It is not they WILL come. They already have. The same legal interpretation affects every faith, even though directed at Catholics. The moment the precedent was established, then it applied to all, immediately. Catholics were just the stand-in for everyone.
Marc, I think I’m right. However, if you can cite me some examples where the regime has exercised measures designed to usurp the liberties of some other faith-based organization I will happily stand corrected?
Muslims are exempted from the law – as are the Amish. However, they (the government) are coming at the Amish from another angle – through agriculture and child labor laws that make it illegal for them to work their farms.
lolly, are you saying Muslims and the Amish will not be required to purchase obamahealthcare should it pass the Court? For what reason(s) are they exempt?
I think one problem is that we Orthodox Jews are such a small minority, that the laws will by nature contradict our religion, unless a generous interpretation is used. For example, we have basically compeltely left the publica school system, but the pressures of trying to maintain our own religious and secular studies cause us to look for whatever crumbs we can get. We are therefore dependant on the good will of the local politicians, and in general we live in Democratic strongholds.
Some examples where we differ from conservative Christians:
(1) Our schools generally only accept Jewish students, and if possible are single-sex. (We wish the Christian shools rejected Jewish students!)
(2) “Brain death” is very controversial in our community, and “pulling the plug” is often considered outright murder.
(3) Adding Chanukah songs to the list would not enable me to sing “Silent night”. In some case, I would be required to give up my life first.
Chunnakah irony: 1 and 2 Maccabees are considered canon by Catholics, but not by Jews. While the Church does not celebrate Chunnakah, it is not forbidden to sing hymns related to it.
That the election of Israel is irrevocable is already in the New Testament and the Catechism, for one of the signs that the Second Coming is near is the mass conversion of Jews (not by force, but by God revealing the Truth to them). No longer will they be stiff-necked and hard of heart, as the prophets from Moses to the Apostles all identified most of them as being. Instead, they will finally “look on the One whom they have pierced, and mourn for Him as one mourns for an only son.”
Catholics need no Jewish support. They will do just fine by themselves, as long as they are themselves. Let the Jews do their thing, and others their own, too. There ain’t nothing broken here that needs mending. In other words, who cares what the Jews do? Another non-issue, objectively.
Fine for you to say. I’m a Jew, and I care about what we do.
Wow! Don’t quite know how to answer your comment except that in this day and time of the unholy alliance between the far left and radical Islam I certainly do think that Christians, of all stripes, and Jews, of all stripes, need the support of each other.
Actually, any objective analysis would reveal to you that the opponents in modernity’s great contest are those people of faith who live a metaxical existence and those secularist, existing in Second Realities and given over to mental and spiritual pathologies.
HG wrote: “Or else they’ll be the ones cleaning the gutters in heaven, or something. Who knows. It’s the intent”
That’s it, that’s the consequence? Noburning at the stake, expulsions, etc.? I’m ok with that. It’s the actions, not the intent that matter to me.
Excellent article, but I do have one question. Why does it matter whether or not the Catholic Church believes in the Election of Israel? I understand the importance of its rejecting the view that the Jewish People are responsible for the Crucifixtion, but the right of the Jewish People to live in peace and security in their own land (which includes the right to defend themselves against those who seek to deprive them of such right) should not be dependent upon a belief in a religious doctrine from the Old Testament. Otherwise why should Buddists, Hindus, atheists or anyone else who does not believe in the Old Testament support Israel? The only thing that the Jews should demand from others (including the Catholic Church) is the recognition that they enjoy the same basic right of all other nations. Belief in the ongoing existence of a covenant between G-d and the Jewish People is of great importance to the Jews themselves as an internal matter, but it is not necessary that others share this belief.
The Catholic Church by definition believes in the Election of Israel, for in its doctrine Jesus of Nazareth is the fulfillment of the promise of that Election and the Church are God’s People (that is, Israel). What about the original People of God, namely, us Jews? Are we still God’s People, or are we outcasts who lost that status by rejecting Jesus? The latter view (which prevailed until the 2nd Vatican Council) fostered anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish violence (although the Church as such did not doctrinally support anti-Jewish violence — just separation, Ghettoization and contempt). The Church must either affirm the continuity of the Covenant (like John Paul II and Benedict XVI) or take a supercessionist view that promotes anti-Semitism — there’s no middle ground. Non-Christians can be indifferent to the issue.
A solid summary. Catholics and quasi-Catholic denominations like Anglicans, Methodists, and other mainlines accept Vatican II reforms and views of Jews. New Protestants can differ, often very strongly.
“New Protestants can dffer, often very strongly.”
What is that throw-away comment supposed to mean?
Another slam at Evangelicals?
Not really, because these are faith issues that will naturally bring different views. Lots of people support Israel in the sense that they support Jamaica or South Korea, though. There’s overlap.
I don’t understand the need for a Catholic – Jewish alliance except for a few self-important self-elected community leaders to meet with each other.
There is so many means of expression out there including the Tea Party that allows both individuals and institutions to make their voices heard.
What Mr. Goldman is suggesting is an insider game with the tacit approval of their constituencies. If I wanted that I could vote Democrat.
As far as the Jewish experience in America, the late writer Harry Golden put out some very interesting books and articles about how Jewish pioneers brought commerce to our frontiers.
But the main point I made is that there is a bond of Faith that exists between Christians and Jews; their are more similarities in beliefs than differences.
We can put those details aside for now, what’s important is that we stand together to preserve the freedoms and liberties we have fought for and cherish as Americans…and view one another as brothers and sisters in the sight of Our Maker and Creator.
“Ynet should hire a fact checker: Fouad Twal represents not the Vatican”
In related news, anti-Semites get their facts wrong, warp reality to match their twisted hatred, and shout their lies as loud and as often as possible. Same as it ever was, but everyone needs to denounce them.
So if I work for a Christian Scientist, they should be absolved from providing MEDICAL insurance and send me to a faith healer. And actually, what if i work for a Faith Healer? Do they get to send me to a Shaman? Or what if i work for a Shaker who dont reproduce? Should they be absolved from providing and kind of maternity, pre/post natal care?
Hopefully the Supreme Court will put the kaibosh on the ABORTION that is Obamacare and this will be an irrelevant conversation. But if we do manage to dodge this Obamacare bullet…it will be IN SPITE of the Catholic Church’s efforts to shove this Obamacare down the throats of Americans. They wanted this Obamacare disaster. Now that it works against them they r all up in arms! As u sow…so shall u reap! And it looks like the Church’s chickens have come home to roost! Too F’ing bad for them! Boohoo.
I should add too David, that I am with u on reconciliation between the Church and Judaism. But its the Orthodox Jews who resist this. ESPECIALLY the Agudath Yisraoel types. I have an acquaintance from my travel club who is a Polish Priest. That would be a double whammy btw…POLISH and PRIEST. He is also an exorcist! Not a joke! A modern day exorcist! When he came to stay with me I asked a few of my former rabbis if they would like to meet him. They declined with “extreme prejudice”. When I told them that until the Messiah comes we need to learn to get along with them as they r both in the “same business” well lets just say their response to me was less than cordial. The ideal situation for most religious Jews would be no contact good or bad. Maybe some cooperation on some matters in THIS world. But the Jews certainly have ZERO interest in any kind of “theological agreement” Like it or not religion is a HUGE business. The last thing the Jews want is to lose customers so they must be viscerally anti-Christianity. And i say anti-Christianity in dogma. NOT anti-Christian individual.
The Polish priests I know half-believe that 9/11 was the Jooooooooooooos’ fault. Maybe your friends knew what their reception likely would be.
The Catholic Church has always maintained the rite of exorcism, and Jesus Himself was an exorcist. The more amazing thing is that people don’t notice the flurry of demonic activity these days.
Who are these Hebrew-speaking Christians in Israel? Syriacs? Russians? I’m curious.
@ 24 The Hebrew-speaking Christians David is referring to are Filipino, Ethiopian gentile and other guest workers in Israel and their children, if I understood his previous columns correctly. The Russian presence has increased only slightly but in terms of land owned by the Russian Orthodox Church in and around Jerusalem it is reportedly a substantial increase in recent years.
Some questions were posed over at the Belmont Club blog where regrettably, the PJM gremlins (surely not the esteemed host Wretchard) chew up my posts. So I will briefly answer them here:
Muscovites with their bursting at the seams 14 million and plus might disagree with this outdated demographic assessment. But even if for the sake of argument the rest of Russia is dying while Moscow gets fat, Russia is still very relevant on the world stage and arguing that they’re just a bigger version of Canada with nukes as Wretchard did is a bit of a non-sequitir. Russia will continue to matter quite a lot especially in the event of a sudden, surprising collapse in American power forcing a new Rapallo on David’s old favorite subject, Germany. The anathema suggestion that a minority in Israel has been hedging their bets with respect to Washington by playing the Russia card, if not preparing for a steep decline in U.S. power projection, remains a heresy at almost any ‘conservative’ forum online. David’s Asia Times articles ‘Putin for President’ and ‘Americans Play Monopoly, Russians Play Chess’ also would’ve never been published by any conservative think tank or website, PJM included, as they are heretical if not reflections of Le Richileiu-esque amoral realism.
The commenter Roughcoat also suggested that I’d be along to quibble with The Pravda on the Potomac Post and Wretchard describing Putin as a dictator. Well not quite, more like the head of a one-party leaning state ala Mexico under the PRI or to take a less corrupt and more benign example, Japan under the LDP for decades. The question for the WaPost crowd and former Georgian government lobbyist/Soros agent Randy Scheunemann remains: if the elections were not free and fair according to international observers, than who actually won? Joseph Biden’s new best friend and longtime CPRF boss Gennady Zyuganov? Fair Russia? Who?
But suggesting that George Soros has corrupted even ‘conservative’ circles views of Russia and made the Kremlin the eternal enemy of the West rather than a ‘frenemy’ that’s eager to do biznis is also heresy. But Soros used the CIA like a rented mule and got what he wanted — selling off the largest steel mill in the Russian Federation to 2010 Forbes Russia rich list leader Vladimir Lisin. How in the hell Soros ever hung on to such a lucrative juicy asset throughout Russia’s vicious ‘metal wars’ that left hundreds of biznismen dead all over Siberia and Moscow, I leave to your imagination. But mokre kyshe (good roof) as the Russians say.
And lastly, a devilish suggestion for David on the Russia-Israel angle: does anyone here seriously think that if the reports are true and Israel has ‘bought an airbase called Azerbaijan’ that this could’ve been done without Putin’s knowledge or blessing?
The clans that run Azerbaijan after all have assets all over the world, but a great number of apartments, gold reserves and bank accounts in Moscow among the Swiss, Lichtenstein and other venues. Azeri-Russian relations are quite good, right down to the Muslim Azeris donating to restore the beautiful 19th century Russian Orthodox Church in the old first oil boom mansion row of Baku.
But once again, suggesting that if the Russian military has cutting edge military hardware derived at American taxpayer expense with Hebrew lettering on the boxes — taboo. Suggesting that Putin is not an enemy but just a frenemy – taboo. Suggesting that Western oligarchs like Soros were the initial kryshe for Khodorkovsky and Berezovsky and hence the takedown of MK was not merely a typical turf war but a sovereignty/national security issue in Putin’s eyes — taboo.
Sorry, here are the links:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-does-azerbaijan-airbase-deal-in-plan-to-attack-iran-7601132.html
UK Independent article some in Israel and John Bolton think is an Obama Admin attempt to scuttle a massive Israeli air strike on Iran from much closer, non-Gulf Arab bases
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/294856/bolton-blames-obama-leaking-israeli-azerbaijan-relationship-patrick-brennan
Bolton NR piece
And could Obama’s plea to Putvedev for more ‘space’ prior to the election also be a not so subtle request for Moscow to open the spigots and ease prices at the worldwide gas pump?
End of thread for me, talk amongst yourselves.
A very good article. Catholics by-and-large support Israel even in Europe, even in the Vatican bureaucracy (although many in the Vatican – and in Europe generally – do it because they know it’s the moral thing to do, not because it is their natural inclination).
However, with regard to Evangelicals there are some differences in approach. THe term “evangelical” is in many ways a pollsters creation, masking wide variance under the label. What does Mars Hill Church in Grandville, MI – with its liberal theological teachings as put forward by former pastor Rob Bell – have to do with Trinity Church in Cedar Hill, TX – with its strict conservative focus on Substance, Covenant Relationships, Legacy, and Marketplace? Not much really. They are as different as can be. Because of this, when someone tells me they’re an evangelical, I have no idea what they really believe or what their position on Israel or America are. Evangelicalism has evolved quite a bit since the 1980s!
And don’t forget the Jews for Jesus movement hosted at Messiah College! What does Orthodox Jewish thinking make of that outgrowth of evangelicalism?
VATICAN COUNCIL II SAYS JEWS NEED TO CONVERT, CATHOLICS ARE THE NEW PEOPLE OF GOD BUT REPORT ON SSPX CLAIMS VATICAN COUNCIL II SAYS OTHERWISE
An Associated Press report,Vatican to breakaway traditionalists: not enough by Frances D’Emilio (VCstar.com)says the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) ‘has opposed the Vatican’s decades-long outreach to Jews, Muslims and members of other faith. More broadly, it opposes the liberalizing reforms the Vatican enacted in the 1960s.’
However a reading of Vatican Council II’s Nostra Aetate 4 says ‘the Church is the new people of God’.Catholics are the new people of God . The Chosen People.Then Vatican Council II further says that all people, Jews included, need Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for salvation (Ad Gentes 7). Jews need to enter the Church with Catholic Faith and the baptism of water to avoid Hell (for salvation).
So Vatican Council II is still saying like the SSPX that Jews, Muslims and other non Catholics, including Protestants and Orthodox Christians, need to enter the Catholic Church for salvation.
So the so called liberalizing reforms is not supported by any text from Vatican Council II.
Vatican Council II also mentions that there can be non Catholics saved in invincible ignorance, with a good consicence (LG 16), with the ‘seeds of the Word’ etc. We accept this as a possibility just as did the popes and Church Councils of the past. They knew that we do not know any particular case. So they are not an explicit, exception to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus or to Ad Gentes 7 and Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II.
Vatican Council II is in accord with the literal interpretation of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus .
Vatican Council II has not changed the teaching of the Catholic Church with respect to other religions as this report on the internet alleges.
The AP report says ‘Jewish groups have expressed concern that the Vatican’s overture to the breakaway Catholics could call into question 50 years of progress in Catholic-Jewish relations.’ It is the Jewish Left political position that Vatican Council II has changed church-teaching. They are unable to cite any reference from Vatican Council II.
The report states: ‘A Vatican statement, issued after Friday’s meeting, said both Benedict, and Levada’s office, studied the Society’s response to the papal overture. But the response, delivered to the Vatican in January, “is not sufficient to overcome the doctrinal problems that are at the foundation of the fracture between the Holy See and the Society.”
The Vatican has never announced that Vatican Council II states that Catholics are the new people of God and that Jews need to convert to avoid Hell, according to Vatican Council II. Instead the Vatican is building up a reputation of throwing away Catholic doctrine for the sake of peace and security.
The report says ‘the statement didn’t elaborate on what failed to satisfy the Vatican’s conditions.’ The Vatican has held secret talks with the SSPX however two of the negotiators during those talks, have expressed Catholic doctrine in papers of the International Theological Commission. They are available on the ITC website.They allege that those saved with the baptism of water and in invincible ignorance are known to us and so they are explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Ad Gentes 7. This is heresy. It is a rejection of the Nicene Creed in which we say “I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin”. The ITC is saying that in some cases, rare cases, known to them there are non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire and in invincible ignorance and without the baptism of water. How do they know these cases it is not elaborated. However the bottom line for the ITC and the Vatican is that there is salvation outside the church in the present times,even though they do not know any exception to the dogma or Vatican Council II.
This is a new doctrine and irrational. Hence it is understandable that the Vatican has not elaborated on the precise doctrinal difference and has kept the issue secret.
The report said ‘Because of “worry about avoiding a church rupture with painful and incalculable consequences,” Fellow was invited to “clarify his position with the aim of closing the existing fracture, as hoped for by Pope Benedict XVI,” said the Vatican statement.’
The SSPX could be excommunicated for not accepting the Jewish Left approved version of Vatican Council II, denying the actual text of Vatican Council II which says Jews need to convert and Catholics are the Chosen people, and not accepting heresy and new doctrines, approved by the Vatican.-Lionel Andrades
http://www.vcstar.com/news/2012/mar/16/bc-eu–vatican-traditionalists-1st-ld-vatican-to/#ixzz1qs1QX2kd