Biden vs. Ryan
Open thread. Let’s see how the Democratic pundits think this is going down.
Bill Maher @billmaher
Biden is hitting in one answer all the things Obama left out in the entire first 90 minute debateAndrew Sullivan @sullydish
Biden should not smile condescendingly when Ryan lies. But he’s calm, clear & forceful – more authoritative than Ryan:
Michael Moore @MMFlint
Biden: “I love Bibi more than you love Bibi!”David Gregory @davidgregory
Advantage here is for Biden. Swarming Ryan. Throwing a lot of punches. Talking a lot. Debating.
Basically they think that Biden is doing a lot better than Ryan. So the Democrats are happy that their debater has a pulse.
James Taranto @jamestaranto
Is it just me or is Biden really rude? #2012 @andyrNYTChris Rock @chrisrockoz
The real winner of this debate so far is Joe Biden’s Regis Smile sponsored by Crest White Strips. #vpdebatesPeter Beinart @PeterBeinart
think biden might actually punch him?msnbc @msnbc
Seems like debate prep for Biden involved them telling him to just interrupt Ryan as much as possible, like a guy in a bar. #msnbc2012
The Democratic debate strategy was apparently to put on a show in which Biden would visually dominate Ryan. This will have two effects. The first is it will convince the Democrats that they “won” the debate. But it will probably not convince anyone else. On the contrary, Biden seems to have infuriated all the conservatives who were watching the proceedings. The basic effect of the Biden-Ryan debate on the Democrats is to reassure themselves that they are not sissies.
Biden is doing a war chant for the benefit of the base. They are making the poor old man dance. From some of the tweets, you get the sense that Biden is taking the act a little too far, past eccentric and into gibbering.
Chris Rock @chrisrockoz
Joe Biden should just reach over and slap Ryan in the face and say ‘Don’t forget, Osama Bin Laden is Dead, General Motors is alive’ #debateVANITY FAIR @VanityFair
Biden now calls Romney his “friend.” What do you think Biden thinks the definition of “friend” is?Markos Moulitsas @markos
Funny seeing manly-men conservatives whining that Biden is being too rough and aggressive.
How will this net out? Biden will have not have succeeded in showing Ryan to be unworthy, a bully, unstatesmanlike, or arrogant — that was the principal pitfall that Ryan sought to avoid. But Biden might have convinced enough conservatives that he is a buffoon. The Democrats must be thoroughly demoralized if they found that spectacle bracing. My guess is that Biden has brought the president no net gain.
The image that almost immediately came to mind was that of the berserker. “Emphasis has been placed on the frenzied nature of the berserkers, hence the modern sense of the word ‘berserk.’ However, the sources describe several other characteristics that have been ignored or neglected by modern commentators. Snorri’s assertion that ‘neither fire nor iron told upon them’ is reiterated time after time, and the sources frequently state that neither edged weapons nor fire affected the berserks, although they were not immune to clubs or other blunt instruments.” Fighting a berserker is hard. Paul Ryan could conceivably have shouted back at Biden, grinned, and leaped up and down.
The Roman method for handling a berserker attack was to receive their charge and defeat them in depth. It’s not clear that Ryan accomplished that, but that may have essentially been his goal. Biden needed to break Ryan and he did not. The video images generated by both sides will be used for ads in the days to come. So while Biden may have heartened Andrew Sullivan, that falls short of what he needed to do.
So did Biden take the hill?
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I am tracking this from:
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/10/11/live-blog-the-biden-ryan-vp-debate/
Can someone suggest a better live blog?
Trying to get some work done, and this debate was pissing me off, so I turned it off. (I always get pissed when listening to liars spew trash talk.).
First observations:
Biden is fairly coherent when he’s not drunk. Holding his own.
Ryan sounds like a policy wonk, a technician.
The drunken brawler is doing better than the polite technician. Biden blames Bush who no one has attempted to defend in 4 years (straw man argument), deflects facts, accepts no responsibility, and uses the ad hominem argument to great effect.
It’s clear that the Democrats goal, their prepping is all geared at discrediting Ryan and Romney personally. Their attacks are personal. It’s not about different facts. The problem, the Democrats are telling us, is that the GOP screwed up the country, the Dems are still sorting it out, and you can ignore anything that Romney and Ryan say now because they are just liars who will be Bush II (or Bush III, whatever. blaming a Bush has been their main political point since 1992).
On the other hand, Ryan has wandered all over the place. I don’t know what his plan or goal was, but if you don’t have a target, then you’ll never hit it, and that’s my first impression of Ryan. Maybe he was trying so hard to be ready for anything, he didn’t have 2 or 3 fixed messages to send.
I’ll rewatch the debate later. Worried somewhat, but all Ryan has to do is keep even with the drunkard VP.
It appears that Joe Biden has confused “being aggressive” with “being rude”.
Looks like no ice cream for Joe.
Has it gone unnoticed that between 6:50P.M. and 6:52P.M. Biden interrupted Ryan 17 times. Ryan spoke up over Biden 2
And before the Afghan topic, Ryan was not allowed to make once statement to answer Biden’s loud rant. Biden continues to interrupt. The format has been made small and body langue difficult if not impossible to observe. Much more to say…
That’s the difference of having someone like a Palin in there, versus a Congressman like Romney. No GOP Governor would stand for that.
Do you think “good ol’ Joe” could BS, lie and roll over Chris Christie? Bobby Jindal? Jeb Bush?
Ryan has forgotten which stage he’s on. He’s not on an off-camera Congressional committee arguing policy with a guy he’ll have a beer with a couple of hours later. Biden has insulted Ryan. He’s insulted Romney. Biden would call Ryan’s wife a whore and his kids bastards, if it came to mind between shots of Whiskey.
Ryan’s responding like Mondale. Where is the Reagan “.. I paid for this microphone..” response when Biden interrupts Ryan? That ain’t gonna cut it. Romney picked the wrong “attack dog” for VP.
Obama runs 5 minutes longer than Romney, while Biden won’t let Ryan finish a coherent thought without interrupting. The Pres/VP form a great image. They’ll take and take and take and take from you, your kids, your grandkids, and then blame you for not working hard enough as they cool their heels at Martha’s Vineyard or in Hawaii.
If one wins by shouting, smirking, distracting the other speaker, talking over the answers of another, and becoming close to a tantrum in several moments… oh and makes noises off camera coming from the same….. well. then the one who does all of that as well as receives more time from moderator without exception…. well these are the RUDE RULES— new rules… That person wins… who won with that behavior tonight.
No substance.
After an absolute heart-felt, honest retraction by Romney in print, on TV, radio, and in person to correct the 47% statement on the people dependent and the valiant revision by Ryan to 30%,
Biden interrupts AGAIN, to repeat a lie. That Romney himself asked for total restriction and admission of error.
Lies, Lies… Talk loud, and over talk the one who has been nothing but a formidable opponent if only he would have had one instead of a out of control, controller of time and repeater of misinformation.(I am being kind on that last remark.)
This debate did not have a clear-cut winner as Obama/Romney did.
Ryan came across as calm, well informed, articulate, polite, reasonable and ready to work to improve the nation’s problems. Biden on the other hand, was brusque and at times, even rude. Biden comes across as cynical and not interested in bi-partisan solutions.
This debate did not have a clear-cut winner as Obama/Romney did.
Ryan came across as calm, well informed, articulate, polite, reasonable and ready to work to improve the nation’s problems. Biden on the other hand, was brusque and at times, even rude. Biden comes across as cynical and not interested in bi-partisan solutions. His antics (smiling, laughing, sneering) did not go over well. I do feel much better though after hearing the VP say that we will know exactly when Iran has the bomb. (NOT!)
I guess it depends on what one considers a “winner”.
A a polite, articulate, knowlegeable thinker. Or, a smarmy, smirking, arrogant blowhard intent on sucking up all the oxygen in the room.
Call this one a draw, ’cause conservatives tend to like the former, libs the latter.
Well, it sure looks like Ryan, like most people under the age of 60, has never had any formal debate experience. He should have been prepared to be much more aggressive, or at least patronizing, to Mad Uncle Joe.
Biden started better, but (fortunately!) Ryan finished strong.
And – kudoes to Martha Raddatz, who did a much better job than I expected, in fact she was tougher on Biden than Ryan was.
Let’s see how it plays to the public, I think it comes out about a draw.
A lot may rest on the spin after the fact.
Old Joe is asked what he thinks about the negative campaign ads. He says, “Romney don’t care about 47 percent of the people! They can rot in hell as far as he’s concerned! Says they are dependent on Government like my parents and their neighbors and the crippled kid down the street! He wants to steal old folks dentures and sell them and give the money to his rich buddies! Ryan says 30 percent of the people are free loaders! He wants them to get jobs! That is what this negative campaign is about!” I quote from memory.
I thought Ryan had a better summation. He asked for our vote.
I’ve got to score the win to Biden because he did accomplish his larger goal. This was to support Obama and shore up the campaign’s position in the wake of Obama’s collapse in the last debate. I’m sure Joe has reassured the recently dispirited Democrat base through his performance.
That smirking, the interrupting, and the ad hominems are not liabilities in the eyes of the Democrat base. Rather, they all have somehow morphed into positive things the Democrat base expects and wants to see. Slouching towards brown shirts, are they? And they were Biden’s targeted audience tonight. I did tune into MSNBC this time. They were positively giddy.
Joe may not have moved the electoral needle tonight, but he did but a brake on its slide. He was successful in shaping the ground in a positive direction for Obama’s next performance vs. Romney.
I’m not surprised, either, because these debates do seem to favor the steeply discounted underdogs. Quayle shocked Gore. Then Gore shocked Kemp. Ryan did not go down in flames like the losers did in those two veep debates, but he did come into it with the same high expectations as Gore did in ’92 and Kemp in ’96. It’s always good to be misunderestimated for these things, as Joe the Gaffe Factory was going into tonight.
Here’s an unsettling thought:
President Biden in 2016.
Or sooner.
i score it as a double loss. biden came across as a manic klown (i suspect he was given a shot of amphetamines before going on), and ryan came across as an overly earnest wimp. all he had to do to score a knock-out is wait about 10 minutes in, while biden did his schtick, and say: “mr vice president, if you can’t behave appropriately, and treat the country’s very real and serious problems with the respect they deserve, then please be quiet”. biden would have had a very public melt-down. it almost happened when ryan smashed biden’s 47% remark back in his face. unfortunaltely ryan’s treating biden like a rational adult just plays into the sterotype of gutless republicans.
Joe does not get called on his mistakes.
http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/10/11/biden_contradicts_state_department_on_benghazi_security
I wasn’t listening to all the debate but afterwards Tom Brokaw (NBC) said he raised the limit for tax increases to a million dollars from 250,000. I don’t think that was a change in policy. Joe is still taking credit for the Bush tax cuts for everyone who is not mega rich. Oh, and he graduated college for you, too. You didn’t do that!
The “twenty families” that run banana republics have been replaced by the 120,000 families in the Arugala Republic.
It was hard for Ryan to debate two people at the same time. He should have shut the Immoderator down first thing.
Ryan did fine. Biden did okay, but hurt himself with the smirks. I do not see this changing anything from immediately before the debate.
I agree with Cowboy. Biden stopped the demoralization among the Dems caused by Obama’s bad performance, at least in part. That’s what I meant by the war dance metaphor in the main. In a way it’s like those fake wrestling bouts where the Mongo Smith bites Hopalong Jones ear and hams up the fact the referee can’t see it to the crowd.
It may be stupid. But Mongo Smith’s fans love it. It makes them feel manly again.
Because the conservatives are so energized he didn’t need to convert any to Obama. But because the Dems were so demoralized Biden really needed to boost the Dems.
But like I said: it’s a pseudo victory. To quote Churchill on Dunkirk: “wars are not won by evacuations”. It won’t bring back the the guys who’ve swung to Romney Ryan. The danger is it will cement them in their switch.
What is the effect of Biden on the swing-voter who saw in Romney a real President? It shows in Ryan a real Vice-President.
What occurs to me in these debates is how many things are not brought up in what looks like an attempt to keep to a script and not make any gaffes.
As an example, Biden blamed the huge deficit on Ryan paying for two wars on a credit card. Now, I know visual aids are not allowed during a debate, but one wonders why Ryan did not paint this mental picture:
http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/OBAMAFAILDEFICITSCBO.jpg
Combined with the fact that Biden himself voted for those same wars, it seems that this was a good way to make Biden look ridiculous. True, easier said than done to keep all these facts in one’s head under pressure, but Ryan should have at least been able to pick up on the deficit hypocrisy.
Appearances on TV are critical. Biden came off as a flaming anal orifice. He played to the Democrat base, but I suspect he really hacked off a whole lot of people.
And he displayed his … mendacity … in several places.
1) If the excuse for the Administration lying for the last month about what happened in Benghazi was that the Intelligence community did not know what really happened when our mission was attacked and they came up with the story about the video, which they changed [so its not Obama's fault they have been lying to the press, the people, and the UN]; how can you reconcile that with Biden’s absolute statement that we will have advance knowledge of when the Iranians get a nuclear device? I would also note, that a simple “gun type” nuclear device can be done extremely simply with no real technological breakthrough if you have the weapons grade enriched U-235. To be honest, from the books I have literally 1 1/2 feet from me now, I could do a first order approximation of a design that would have a high probability of working. And I am far from a physicist.
2) The excuse that they did not know that it was an armed attack on the Mission in Benghazi. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Charlene Lamb, who oversees safety and security for U.S. embassies and consulates around the world was on the phone real-time with the late-ambassador for 6 hours during the attack. For them to claim that they had no idea that it was an attack for a month does not hold water.
3) The claim that Obamacare does absolutely does not require any religious organization to perform or fund abortions and contraception is a flat out deliberate lie.
4) His explanation for “why” we did not intervene in Syria when we did in Libya ["Syria is 5 times larger than Libya and is just too big a country to intervene in."] shows that he has never looked at a map of the MENA area. Syria is about 1/9 the size of Libya.
Biden bucked up the Obama faithful by not gibbering and drooling on camera, because they are not going to let any facts interfere with their worship. He angered those who are not worshipers, by his deliberately rude conduct. Ryan won on both facts and importantly the presentation. His keeping his temper under extreme provocation, and his reasonable responses helped Romney a lot. Keep in mind that a preference cascade is beginning, and a lot of people got an excuse to not support Obama last week. And Ryan’s closing statement hit exactly the right note. I think it was a Ryan win. Not a crushing like Romney delivered, but it reinforces the trend. There will be happy faces at our weekly TEA Party/Republican GOTV rally tomorrow.
Subotai Bahadur
Apparently the audience meters favored Ryan, Smirkin’ Joe did not go over well, and perhaps that’s because the audience was already conditioned by the earlier Romney results.
(and I’ll remind the jury – if Biden comes off positive with even 40% of the audience, he probably meets requirements. but he may not have done that well.)
Another random comment – if they’re going to discuss numbers, they should let the candidates have charts and graphs, powerpoint slides, laser pointers, and maybe musical accompanyment.
Every woman in the CNN and Fox focus groups hated the rude interruptions, even the ones that thought Biden won. Or O’Biden as Sarah Palin would say. My wife was offended with the laughs, smirks and interruptions. Slow Joe may have helped himself with the Dem base but he killed himself with the independent women.
When a conservative debates a liberal, it must be kept foremost in his mind that the debate is really about fishing and that he is the fish and the liberal is the fisherman. I think Joe Biden had a great time but went home hungry. That’s just about the best a fish can do.
If you were picking a team to tackle an important project, would you pick Biden or Ryan to join you? I think the answer is obvious.
If this debate was just about theatrics, then I suppose you could rationalize Joe Biden as some sort of a success. In any other context, his primary talent is buffoonery.
maybe i missed it but it doesn’t seem like ryan called biden on his lie about the effect of obamacare on catholic institutions.
I reckon Biden reminded a lot of independent women tonight why they divorced their first husbands.
cjm @ 25: maybe i missed it but it doesn’t seem like ryan called biden on his lie about the effect of obamacare on catholic institutions.
Ryan said his piece first, and never went back to challenge Biden – on anything. Obviously coached not to. I heard that his coaching was to never let Biden set the topic. Unfortunately that meant Ryan never responded to the most blatant lies. I dunno, it might be good politics, but it sure is weak formal debating.
If Biden didn’t win convincingly tonight, the ticket lost. He didn’t. I suspect most people turned it off after a few minutes. You can’t stay clean wrestling with a pig, so Ryan doesn’t come out looking good either. Unfortunately for Obama, that doesn’t hurt Romney one way or another. But the ones who shut it off in disgust hurt Obama. I suspect the poll numbers will continue to show a gradual move to Romney.
There is a good columnist up here in Canada who says that the ones who act like the opposition party during an election usually get their wish.
This will evolve into another huge loss for the administration, mostly because they are continuing to bungle the Benghazi thing, and Biden threw a match on that gas can.
Regarding his demeanor, Biden demonstrated why the only available option, cutting R & R down to size, won’t work now that they’ve established credibility.
Krauthammer had it right: if you read the transcript it was a draw, if you listened Biden won, and if you watched Biden lost. He could have won on TV as well if he had been the nice guy he was with Sarah last time around, but Obie’s failure meant the coaches had only the attack dog schtick to sell.
What will outlive the debate is the smirking and the widening Benghazi coverup. Jokin’ Joe told a thoroughly implausible tale about why the administration took 3 weeks to come some semblance of clean, a tale that virtually no one will swallow. Then he told an obvious lie about not knowing added security was requested.
With a compliant press beginning to show some spunk, he probably won’t get away with that,and the administration will now look more Nixonian than ever.
Rove also pointed out that Joe lied about not supporting the “credit card” wars. He voted for both Iraq and Afghanistan. I doubt the Pubs will let that one slide in their ads.
THE UNDERCARD
The president congratulates Joe Biden on his debate performance.
You know I love the way you work
I love the way you smile and smirk
I love the way you condescend
The way you counter and defend
And Joe you know how good I felt
Each time you hit below the belt
In any fight I’d hold your coat
But Joe you didn’t change one vote
I saw part of the debate, listened to part of it on radio, and read about the final half hour. I thought Biden was allowed to get away with a degree of rudeness and misstatements that was unprecedented. But then the referee was not doing her job. She let Joe go on and on and tended to cut off Ryan and prevented him from completing a number of his replies and refutations of the Veep.
In a football game, if you know the refs are not calling holding and ignoring illegal blocks, you have to get your own players to take care of the matter — by making sure the other team’s offending players are smashed and perhaps by accidentally knocking over the ref while trying to make a tackle. And if Ryan’s team didn’t anticipate that Martha would behave in the way she did, shame on them.
I do think that middle American married women would resent Biden’s rudeness but that urban single women wouldn’t, and would see Ryan’s Marquis of Queensberry behavior as weak rather than polite.
But I believe that the majority of voters do not follow politics that closely and actually form their opinion of who won or lost not by the debate itself but by what the commentators say the next day on the evening news. So Biden did give the MSM enough to declare him the winner. This in the face of several egregious inaccuracies and blatant falsehoods. Unless those are pointed out, I have to count this as a win for Obama/Biden.
It does set the stage for a “comeback kid” moment next week in a format suited to the President. I see it as an opportunity lost for Ryan. I also see it as a further demonstration of the decline in political discourse.
CNN Poll: Debate watchers split on who won VP debate
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/11/cnn-poll-on-debate-winner-ryan-48-biden-44/comment-page-3/
Danville, Kentucky (CNN) – Call it a draw.
Forty-eight percent of voters who watched the vice presidential debate think that Rep. Paul Ryan won the showdown, according to a CNN/ORC International nationwide poll conducted right after Thursday night’s faceoff. Forty-four percent say that Vice President Joe Biden was victorious.
So Ryan eked out a modest win in the polls. Here’s hoping he learns how to kidney-punch effectively. Maybe we can send him to the Oxford Union for some debating practice.
John Batchelor was incensed tonight that Biden interrupted constantly and acted like a complete jackass, and believes that Middle America will be repelled by his rude, boorish behavior as well.
I didn’t watch it, but I got the impression from conservative blogs that Ryan was like Baloo the bear, patiently enduring the taunts and assaults with dirt, leaves, and poo flung down on his head from on high by the Bandar-log (Monkey People).
In fact, the entire Democrat Party remind me of the Bandar-log, and they have for quite some time. Birdwitted, vainglorious, always rushing here and there, and their favorite tactic is to find a high branch and fling their own poo at any of the more serious animals who oppose them.
If you want to cleanse your palate, have a taste of this wine: Christopher Hitchens, Master Debater, demolishing the street thug George Galloway. Topic? should we fight the Jihadis or not? (2005. This one I saw live. We cheered Hitch lustily; he was surprised to see that he had supporters in the audience! about 1/4 of the total.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLKQGwVkczg
Enjoy the spectacle of seeing a master thrust his rapier through a squealing boar of an opponent, again and again. (Hitch, of course, first honed that rapier in University debates.)
29. maineman
What will outlive the debate is the smirking and the widening Benghazi coverup. Jokin’ Joe told a thoroughly implausible tale about why the administration took 3 weeks to come some semblance of clean, a tale that virtually no one will swallow. Then he told an obvious lie about not knowing added security was requested.
The folks at Commentary agree:
“For Biden to put all of the blame for the lies about the video and the denial of terrorism on intelligence officials says a lot about the complete breakdown of administration counter-terror policy. His denial that anyone in Washington knew that the story put forward Susan Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations wasn’t true seems implausible. Even if true, it speaks to administration incompetence. The narrative here is still confused and Biden’s contribution only furthers muddies the waters.
It also demonstrates how absurd and hypocritical Democratic attacks on Mitt Romney for his criticism of the initial reactions from Washington to both the Libya attack and the assault on the U.S. embassy in Cairo, Egypt. Efforts such as those of Biden to deflect blame for a disaster that unfolded without any leadership from the top onto the Republicans are clearly not going to work.”
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/10/12/biden-throws-intel-community-under-bus-benghazi-attack/#more-807892
At least no one is calling the President of Vice Joltin’ Joe.
Polls tended to give a points victory to Ryan, which is how I saw it.
He gets kudos for remaining calm while Joe performed his magnificent clown act (gradually tailing off to a more surly finale as he tired).
One measure that was brought to my attention by Fox’s Megan Kelly after Romney vs Obama was the number of pundits floating around in “Spin Ally” post-debate. Kelly’s assertion was that if you saw more of one party’s colours than the other, that was an indication that that particular party was more excited and willing to talk about their candidate’s performance. After Romney/Obama, there were only about 2 blue flags in the alley (and they didn’t stay long), which was a fair indication that Obama’s team was hiding in the back room sulking rather than face the cameras.
Tonight, red outweighed blue by about 2-1 or 3-1.
Also – check the post-debate expressions on the candidates as they greeted their and each others families, seemed to me Biden wasn’t super-jazzed, while Ryan appeared reasonably happy.
Biden was no berserker, if anything he reminded me of Clown from The Spawn.
Haven’t watched or listened yet, but given Drudge Headlines, Mike Gallegher forecast this perfectly:
BHO’s conclusion of his own performance was that he was “too polite.”
This delusion allowed him to make a decision no sane man would make:
Unleash Joe!
This will never fly in the long run.
The young adult and the old, over-grown juvenile.
38. sharpshooter
the old, over-grown juvenile
aka the poster child for senile delinquency.
Biden is the quintessential mix of postmodern Democrat Party ethos:
-union animal thuggishness,
-corrosive envy brought about by feelings of insecurity surrounding his lack of the skills, intellect, maturity, temperament, and work ethic needed to thrive long-term in the private sector,
-pretending that said envy is concern for “fairness” or “the needy”,
-lofty self-regard and snobbery inculcated by a pseudointellectual “educational” experience in the humanities/social sciences which was based almost entirely on political correctness instead of true learning and knowledge,
-and petty, self-righteous, elitist, bureaucratic public sector officiousness.
So, he certainly appeals to the Dem base, who share these nasty tendencies. But since Biden is a known quantity to the base, I don’t think there is a net gain for them, kind of like playing for a tie. If the Biden people’s goal was to make Ryan slip up and say something regrettable, they lost.
If the Ryan people had as their objective preventing an appeal to the base, then Ryan lost. If, however, their objective was to prevent Ryan from making any gaffes and to look competent on a national stage (which I suspect is the case), then they successfully played for a win.
Probable end result: slight win for Ryan which affects the outcome of the election not at all.
First let me just say Ryan was far too congeal and passive last night. Was it me or did it seem Whacky Uncle Joe had very precise tightly packed answers to nearly each of the written questions asked (to well prepared) did the 0bama administration know the questions ahead of time? Did what’s her name moderator consistently cut Ryan off while barely saying anything while Joe ranted? Ryan had numerous opportunities to knock Joe and his boss for some serious loops but Ryan sat there like a Good Boy letting Biden ramble on and on and on… Romney needs to Quite playing it safe, time for some guts!
It is one thing to win a debate, it is something else to convince people that you are right and it is another thing to advance your cause. I suspect Ryan moved a few independents to Romney and Biden energized some of the demoralized fanatics in the Obama camp.
Ryan emerges as a man who is not quite ready for the presidency but is on the way. Good enough for VP and a potential candidate in 2016 or 2020. Biden remains the buffoon – a man who can damage his opponents but lacks credibility at a personal level. Biden is incapable of gaffes because every other word out of his mouth is ludicrous and everyone expects this.
I have to be a bit parochial here. Parochial because Biden’s uber-smile smirk, demeaning interjections and mocking was a particularly parochial argumentative style. It’s a style from Philly. Also to be more specific Biden’s performance was meant to send mega-leg tickles down Chris Matthews leg. I think that’s why Biden made the many references to Tip O’Neill — working for Tip as a top aide was Chris Matthews’ career highlight. Pleasing Chris Matthews meant that MSNBC and the union and bureaucrat thug wing of the base would be happy.
The Philly Catholic School schools produce a largely Irish-Italian work product of graduates who love that mocking, bully, gotcha style of debate and consider it manly and potent. Not only the incessant mocking, laughing and smirking are characteristic — but the short-cut “That’s just BS!” method of rejoinder. There’s really nothing to ponder or consider, it’s just the aggressive assertion of infallible doctrine that you MUST accept and support — that’s the whole of such an argument, period. Get with the group. The Philly area unions are full of such swaggering bluster in leaders and thugs.
Berserker? Sure, sure, that’s an interesting take. But we all know that really its just Philly Union Thug style. PERIOD. Anything else is just a load of it.
On the last thread Joan was kind enough to wade into the sewer and find video of the inner Biden or Matthews. Good point bvw. Ryan should have said, “You can’t demagogue arithmetic.”
Everyone seems to misunderstand what the word “lie” means.
There is an extreme difference between not letting a statement going unrebutted and not allowing your opponent to finish a thought or even a sentence without interrupting him.
The lies about Libya and scapegoating INTEL will not go well for the Obama Administration, and Biden seemed set on making an enemy of the INTEL establishment. Bad, bad move as the establishment expects Presidents to act responsibly and to live up to failures by being responsible for them… not scapegoating and finger-pointing.
Worse was saying that Iran was going to come around due to sanctions… too bad this is a non-rational regime that doesn’t much care about sanctions, economics or much of anything else beyond making the world burn. That and the fact that there are the AQ Khan designs available on the black market that Iran can get ahold of, and their friends in NoKo also have bomb designs, as well. No, saying ‘calm down’ and ‘they are only months from having enough material and no bomb’ is wish-casting and a blatant disregard for reality. Without rational actors, with available designs and only lacking fissile material, Joe Biden is, essentially, saying its no big deal if Iran gets the bomb. Outside of giving the spur to every other regime in the region to get one, of course.
I was horrified by Joe Biden’s attitude toward such things: they are no laughing matter, no place to score points, but places the US should be united. We are put in peril as a society and a Nation by such attitudes and by playing petty politics with such Jokers intent on their own ends that spell no good for anyone.
Biden appeared to be assuming the role of chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, Ed Shultz or eve the Rev Al. this was a red meat move to stir up enough juices in the mouths of the angry left to have them foaming at the Romney ticket again instead of the President. Anyone that is a fan of those commentators thought Joe won hands down. Everyone else might think he ws a little whacky and strange.
I did not see any gotcha’s in this one.But someone was acting stupid.
The way everything went down worries me. People are saying I’m a progressive troll because I think Biden won, but I think Biden won because his mission was different from Ryan’s.
Ryan’s job was still to peel off disaffected 2008 Obama voters and sway them into the Romney camp. While Ryan had substance, I’m not sure he made the personal and emotional appeals he needed to make to hook them.
Biden’s job was to re-excite the base and pull stragglers and fence-sitters who once leaned Obama (but started to stray) back into the fold. That’s why he turned up the arrogant, rude, condescending, aggressive bluster. The Dem base loves that kind of thing (especially the 35 and under crowd, the ones who aren’t nearly in love with Obama as they were in 2008, and were threatening to stay home). I think Biden succeeded wildly in firing up the Dem base.
I don’t think Biden did himself any favors with independents, but I don’t think that was ever the Dems’ plan. They’re still running with their “we’ve got the registration advantage, so all we have to do is fire them up to get them out to the polls” card.
Hopefully Romney can be more authoritative than Ryan was in the next round, and hopefully he won’t allow the Moderator to cut him off the way Radaatz constantly cut Ryan off.
What a wonderful opportunity for the campaign or one of the PACs (best if R&R do it though). Take the debate and edit it into a form of rebuttal (call it a “post-buttal”). Condense both sides words into summary bullet points. Rerun the debate window-in-window at 10-20x speed slowing where a point needs to be made – with a chess-like game clock in the background that’s totaling talk time, words, adding 10 seconds for every interruption by a candidate – since audience attention is diverted to “what did he say? Or was that just a rude noise?” and takes as long again to refocus on the interrupted messages, and 20 seconds for every interruption by the moderator (charged to the other side). Interspersed with this have the candidate (Mr. Ryan in this debate) that was interrupted complete every argument succinctly – and offer his version of the strongest counter argument by the other-side and then rebut that – but now with facts, figures, pictures and quotes in the sidebar and web links. And also replay parts of the debate where Mr. B contradicts himself – e.g. so we have great intelligence on Iran’s bomb and no intelligence on AQ in Libya?? And if we contradict ourselves – show it and explain why.
Edit the result into three versions – a number of 15 second TV spots, pointing at the web site or a simple memorable web search phrase. A low key and personable youtube version of 10 minutes or less with one or the other or both candidates making the points. And a web site version with the video, other relevant videos (both Mr. B and the administration’s past pronouncements) and lots of links, including observations and suggestions about how the media can do a better job than simply repeating one side’s talking points (and teach this by example on the web site’s presentation of the arguments – similar to how some voter guides present initiatives).
To be really cruel, make it a team response – i.e. combine the material and topics from each debate as they occur and present the results in summary form with using bullet point summaries weaving the candidates’ videos into a montage (including media montages where they all reading from the same leftist meme-of-the-day). And since the web presentation can be infinitely deep – use it to make a fair representation of each side’s argument and the other side’s rebuttal. And since they undoubtedly have reams of debate prep materials – let the editors / producers draw from all that content. Plus either have the NMA folks or one of their competitors produce something funny enough (daily as we get closer to the election) to draw visitors to the site.
e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNhUI8ktHuw
I was unable to watch, but from the reports, I initially was a bit disappointed that Ryan didn’t call out the moderator and Biden’s behavior, but after some thinking, I realized that Ryan played the “Good Catholic Boy” angle far better than I could have managed myself. My main heartburn is the hypocrisy of liberal “Christians” who support the “goals” of the Democratic party as “Christian”, but if they shill that Biden won, then they root for the kind of behavior that they condemn in (selected) others. To me, Ryan’s performance is a fantastic Rorsach test to flush out the “Christian” left’s BS.
If the goal was to avoid gaffes while energizing the base, Ryan succeded with me handsomely. Biden energized his base, but the “gaffes” he made were not quotable verbal soundbites, but his entire behavior.
Vice President Joe Biden claimed that the administration wasn’t aware of requests for more security in Libya before the Sept. 11 attacks on the U.S. mission in Benghazi during Thursday night’s debate, contradicting two State Department officials and the former head of diplomatic security in Libya.
“We weren’t told they wanted more security. We did not know they wanted more security there,” Biden said.
In fact, two security officials who worked for the State Department in Libya at the time testified Thursday that they repeatedly requested more security and two State Department officials admitted they had denied those requests.
“All of us at post were in sync that we wanted these resources,” the top regional security officer in Libya over the summer, Eric Nordstrom, testified. “In those conversations, I was specifically told [by Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Charlene Lamb] ‘You cannot request an SST extension.’ I determined I was told that because there would be too much political cost. We went ahead and requested it anyway.”
Nordstrom was so critical of the State Department’s reluctance to respond to his calls for more security that he said, “For me, the Taliban is on the inside of the building.”
“We felt great frustration that those requests were ignored or just never met,” testified Lt. Col. Andrew Wood, a Utah National Guardsman who was leading a security team in Libya until August.
House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA) released the unclassified cables containing those requests.
Biden’s (and Obama’s) behavior occurs when he thinks he has 90% of the room on his side, and that with his mockery, the mob will turn on his enemies. It worked for FDR (“malefactors of great wealth”); it worked for LBJ (the daisy ad); it worked for Carter and Obama (those mean Republicans).
Election after election, the Democrat candidates have correctly judged the mood of the American people. Only when the Democrat party nominates buffoons, even when they are the sitting presidents, do they lose.
No election, no debate, no speech is about facts or issues, or is about such things only tertiarily.
Everyone watches for demeanor (vote for a president who looks presidential) or viciousness (“he landed a blow”), even if the violence is metaphorical, or tribal loyalty. Emotion, not facts or lies, is the alpha and omega of politics.
Whether or not Obama has sunk to the level of Carter in 1980 or Kerry or Dukakis remains to be seen.
Bad night for Ryan. He came off wonky, insincere when he used the politician trick of “personal stories” and had no fundamental defense for why people are conservatives. He let Biden tell the world what the Dems want the world to hear which is that everyone is corrupt but they are corrupt in favor of the middle class.
Instead of knocking out the Dem stool made up of machine and identity politics he let Biden sit in it and smirk.
Here is the ad the GOP MUST run. Biden laughing and making faces in the background.
Text overlay and narration
“here is what Obama/Biden find funny.”
Pause, dramatic
” A dead US ambassador”
“Lying to the American people about a video”
“Failure to secure our embassies”
“lying about it”
“The US Constitution”
“American values of freedom of speech.”
“American tradition of freedom of religion”
“A failing education system”
“The employment rate”
“The so-called Recovery Summer of 2010, 2011, 2012″
“An economy that mildly recovered in 2009, and has been going down ever since [show GDP Chart]”
“More Americans out of work since the 1980s [show employment participation rate]”
“More people on food stamps, gutting of welfare, free phones.”
“Higher healthcare costs.”
“Last four years have been tough on hard working Americans”
“We do not think any of that is funny…”
Pause, dramatic.
Romney/Ryan 2012
Serious young legislator wipes floor with grinning old political hack. 53% of America is finally realizing the two highest offices in their Republic are occupied by ignorant clowns. Ryan is going to make a great VP.
It took about an hour for the acid to wear off, then Joe was fine.
William @54, the hairs on the back of my neck stood up. That’s a great ad.
For a large part of the younger hipster-poseur Left snark, ridicule and condescension pass for debate and argumentation. They were raised on sitcoms and television dramas ending when one character silences the room with a now-hear-this put down. Their education has left them unable to tell the difference between a premise and a conclusion. The logical fallacies they unknowingly use like reflex tics are features, not bugs. The most frightning thing to them is to be thought uncool, two minutes behind everyone else, or exposed to mocking judgement by their peers. It’s one reason why the media and the political establishment are so effective at marginalizing outsiders.
So, of course they’ll cheer Boorish Biden snapping wet towels at Paul Ryan. But then again, these are people who think shouting down speakers and vandalism are expressions of free speech and that street theatre is actually effective.
Derek – “You can’t stay clean wrestling with a pig…”
Well said.
VP debate in a sentance —
Ryan avoided a “Dan Quayle mistake,” and Biden’s performance reminded voters that he was Obama’s “Dan Quayle mistake.”
Once again, Markos Moulitsas, and his cohorts, shows he has no idea what it means to be a man. From “The Ultimate Man’s Survival Guide”
Always Be Polite: Even if someone is in your face, don’t stoop to their level. Being polite and courteous shows that your a better man.
Don’t shout: Shouting, or talking over others, raises the stress level and implies you don’t hav eht intellect to garner attention.
Don’t Laugh at others: If someone spills a drink or trips, help them. don’t chuckle unless they do.
Of course, it’s no surprise a lefty wouldn’t recognize true manliness as they happily allowed themselves to be castrated years ago.
So was this malarkey or “other stuff” from Joe Biden last night?
The Frank Luntz focus group on Fox called it a draw and basically said neither side had good answers on the economy.
This has always been Romney’s problem. He won’t fully level with the American people and the people know it. He is creating his own credibility gap.
Ryan last night let Biden control the narrative on what caused this depression. Big Mistake.
To provide solutions, one first tell someone what went wrong. Romney and Ryan have yet to tell people what went wrong on our economy. Once that is done, the solutions should follow logically. This depression was largely caused by two things:
• Letting the TBTF go berserk; lend trillions to the unqualified poor, and people just plain unqualified and then package those loans into fraudulent MBS. And along the way engage in selling hundreds of trillions in derivatives. They have let their reserve ratios go beyond the limits of reason.
• Disastrous over- regulation of business that has forced much too much of critical manufacturing overseas.
Until R & R tell the whole truth, this race will be a toss up and they have a good chance of losing it.
After sleeping on it, I’m thinking that Crazy Joe’s performance is going to hurt Obama. One of the things that dawned on me this morning is that Ryan was actually trying to answer questions but Biden wasn’t letting him. I think most people who watched are also going to have that epiphany.
And that’s going to hurt the Ds.
Well, this morning CBS is saying their polls make Biden the winner. Of course I assume CBS is lying, shilling for the Dems, but there it is. If there’s any truth to it all it tells us is, Bluster Wins.
Frankly, I think that’s really much of why Romney won, he blustered more than did Obambus. Which you can see as a prediction of how the next presidential debate will go – Obambus at least, and maybe Romney too, will bluster, bluster, bluster.
Ryan should have been much more aggressive and corrective, and the debate should be structured to allow more interruptions, as the Democratic plan is to lie, lie, lie, and it should be challenged, challenged, challenged, as boring a debate as that will produce.
Oh one more thing, local ABC did a survey, and with a spread of voters Dem, Rep, and undecided – nobody changed their vote after the debate. Of course this is California where it doesn’t matter, but fwiw.
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jj @ 66: Here’s where we see a Romneyesque strategy in motion.
Agree with what you say, maybe even agree with the decision, but believe they went too far, given the particulars of the two individuals, or three counting the moderator, involved.
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u @ 63: Letting the TBTF go berserk; lend trillions to the unqualified poor, and people just plain unqualified and then package those loans into fraudulent MBS. And along the way engage in selling hundreds of trillions in derivatives. They have let their reserve ratios go beyond the limits of reason.
Nobody lent trillions to unqualified poor, maybe one trillion. It’s the twelve trillion to *qualified* borrowers but AT INFLATED PRICES that was the problem, it’s called a “bubble”. And then the packaging and “shedding risk”, until the MARKET collapsed, that all them Wall Street rocket scientist geniuses never saw coming, that characterizes the 2008 collapse. AFAIK the financial industry has STILL NOT FIGURED OUT that the whole game is bad, not even the Fed. The Fed has supported the *market* by printing trillions, but changed not a thing about how it went bad: the banks big and small are still using an invalid mathematical model. The only *hint* I’ve *ever* seen on this in the MSM was Paulson making a crack in 2008 that the stupid Chinese had accepted too low returns on their investments. MBO and all that are not invalid if all the risks, including market collapse, are figured in, but MBO returning real risk-assessed rates would be so expensive, nobody would buy them. So the lies continue. Fixing it would indeed further depress real estate for another five years, it would break modern finance going back to GNMA. And someone should drop a nuke on AIG and blame it on the Iranians.
OK, so why did I just start this recitation … oh yeah. It has entered the Obambus reelection book to MENTION how close the economy came to REAL DISASTER in 2009 as a reason for the Porkulus, etc. Actually, this is true. Biden mentioned it again just last night. And every time they mention it, it flies right past all listeners. Nobody hears it. The one thing in their whole schtick which is TRUE, and it has NO traction. Which is good, because it is too horrible to say. Congress was briefed on it in 2008 and 2009, it’s what McCain reacted to flying back for emergency consultations, and few have ever said a peep about it. There WOULD be riots in the streets, if people even realized how close we came. It’s like an asteroid that zoomed past in the night, that would have ended all life on Earth if it hit. Some people would come to religion if they only knew, but they slept through it, they haven’t heard.
Uh, OK, just thought I’d, y’know, mention it. Have a nice day.
Here’s where we see a Romneyesque strategy in motion.
Paul Ryan was told to simply NOT be too rude to this old fool, because the BASE (and a vast majority of the squishy center) won’t like that, while Biden was told to be as rude as he wants, because his base likes that (which just goes to show you how debased and rotten the Democrats really are).
Romney’s 47% remark was right on target, but the numbers are beside the point. He was talking about his STRATEGY to his supporters, explaining his reasoning to them. The key is that he’s after the rest of the softies in the middle, who I think were quite shocked at discovering what an a-hole Biden really is. Last night changed Biden from that crazy funny uncle you invite who always makes a fool of himself at Thanksgiving into the uncle you never speak to after THIS Thanksgiving, because now he’s rude and nasty, and you’ve just now discovered how nasty he always was.
I’m sure Romney gave Ryan a check-list, because I’m sure that’s how he does things:
1) Don’t be rude to that old fool.
2) Make your points, but don’t bury anybody with numbers. They’re all retarded in the middle. They can’t balance a check-book, and don’t know what the “out years” even means.
3) If Joe interrupts, let him. Every time he sets his mouth in motion, we get more votes.
4) Try not to punch him in his lying mouth. Keep your cool.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Mitt arranged for that rude bitch to moderate. Notice, though, the new MSM trick: the first three minutes, I thought she might be a closet conservative, for chrissakes! When she instantly turned into Biden’s bitch (and, toward the end, clearly his prompter, feeding him his lines) it finally made sense. That was so they could point to two or three cuts SHOWING BEYOND ALL DOUBT that she had been “fair”. I’ve noticed this tactic before, but never so brazenly attempted.
Therefore:
5) Don’t attack the commie bitch. Let her run her mouth. She’ll add to the meme of Paul Ryan being persecuted, which, if you just sit there and take it, with those mooneyes and winning smile going full blast, will get us more soccer moms and single moms than all the condoms in China. Think: how would Jesus look? And make that face. Or a beagle puppy, who’s tail has been stepped on. That face will work, too.
Now, the base won’t like it. How in Hell can you watch Babe Ruth sit there and take three strikes (which, because they were all aimed at his head by a nasty pitcher, weren’t even strikes at all)? Well, Romney is an experienced problem-solver, not a pathetic, slimey, know-nothing politician. First problem: he needs to get elected. We’re already voting for him. The commies are not. But that great, big, fat, lazy, stupid blob of useless humanity in the middle is just sitting there begging to be manipulated, nay DEMANDING to be manipulated. Since logic and science are utter strangers to them, that manipulation must be subliminal. They don’t like thinking all that much.
Jesus or Beagle puppy, Paul. Your choice.
Mittens is looking better to me all the time.
“Of course I assume CBS is lying, shilling for the Dems, but there it is. If there’s any truth to it all it tells us is, Bluster Wins.” – Josh
I note the CBS poll included a substantially larger representation of Democrats than Republicans. . .a topic that has been touched on in the last few days on the ‘blogsphere. That may account for part (or even most) of it.
I finally figured it out.
Biden was doing his impression of the Joker. The maniacal laugh, the smile with too many teeth, the dark condescention, it was all there.
And he pulled it off without makeup.
Who was Ryan? Fit, dedicated and long-suffering? Batman of course. No superpowers, just focus.
Luntz’s group of undecideds last night by a show of hands:
1) Not one changed their mind from the date
2) At least 90% of them voted for Obama in 2008
If a roomful of previous Obama voters are now undecided that is all you need to know. Game over Romney/Ryan win.
I will make two simple points: First is that the VP debate really doesn’t count for much aside from the usual tittle-tattle among the talking heads and even on that level Biden failed. Media is virtually united in saying the VP made an ass of himself and given time, that will be the takeaway. Second is that my wife — who is certainly not known as a conservative, nor even a follower of politics for that matter — demanded I change the channel after 20 minutes. When I asked why she said she found the “old man really offensive and annoying”. In that regard Biden will be shown to have caused appreciable damage. Time will again reveal him to have driven away even more of their base. aka; women! That will prove to be the final nail in the coffin of this moribund administration.
60. Trent Telenko >> precisely!
This was a very clear win for Ryan because he first and foremost looked and acted presidential. As opposed to Biden, who looked and acted ridiculous. Secondarily, it’s a clear win for Ryan because the voters who remain persuade-able are largely white women. And Biden turned them off, bigtime. I suspect he turned them off far more than most realize. Lastly, it was a very smart strategic move by the RomneyRyan campaign to not have Paul Ryan go into attack mode and try to counter all of Biden’s foolishness. That would have played into Biden’s strategy. The base of conservatives wanted him to do more battle, but those persuade-able women out there wouldn’t have been as fond of that approach. They were A.O.K. with the wonky Ryan approach.
Ryan won last night, and the RomneyRyan2012 ticket is sailing toward a big, big victory.
68: Biden was …the Joker…Who was Ryan?
Ryan is Robin, read to take over from Batman in eight years,
Josh, much of what you wrote is true. My explanation was way too abbreviated.
However, you need to understand that Wall Street fed the bubble, because the reserve ratios were allowed to expand beyond all reason. Capitalize the profits, socialize the losses ruled the day. The Banks knew they were too big too fail so they went on a derivatives and lending binge to juice profits, which they kickbacked to Bank executives and traders and not to stockholders. They engaged in all sorts ( it’s a long list) of dubious, if not fraudulent behavior for profits.
On the other hand, the over regulation problem is linked to the banking mess. The over regulation of our economy has strangled real growth starting at least twenty years ago, and has led to declining real wages and a declining standard of living for millions. In the face of this decline, people resorted to leveraging their homes in the hope of staying afloat and maintaining their standard of living somehow. You can talk all you want about over the top grandiose lifestyles, and conspicuous consumption of unnecessary toys and baubles, but the real truth is that the average family was taking it on the chin way before the depression hit. So millions of families were a ripe mark for the TBTF’s nefarious lending schemes.
Both of these situations combined to make the mess we are in. Of course, Buraq has taken this mess to a far more dangerous level with trillions in QE money printing, ZIRP, debt and spending. A debt trap on the national level is a real risk now, where it wasn’t when he took office.
I lost patience with Noonan back in 2008 if not before, but she is right on with her analysis on Biden. And my response is: Modern Democrats do not understand or respect REAL strength and REAL command. If they did, they would not be Democrats – a party run by feminine men, masculine women, and America haters.
I thought Iowahawk’s tweet summed up the VP debate best:
This debate change everything. Last week it was, “holy crap, that guy is President?” Now it’s “holy crap, that guy is VP?”
u @ 73: We’re in general agreement on it all, it just always pulls my string when I see CRA stuff over-blamed for the situation when it was hardly more than the straw that broke the camel’s back, the straw that popped the bubble. All those high-rise condos in Vegas were built to sell to speculators, gamblers really, I guess that’s the right town for it! It’s an interesting grad-student exercise to try to decide what would have happened in the economy if Glass-Steagall had never been repealed. Or if AIG had been required to have reserves for CDS.
Merrill and Citibank were busy putting billions into SIVs with virtually no reserves, virtually infinite leverage, bubbles that would pop if a kitten yawned, and did. Well why not, but NOT backed by taxpayer money, y’know?
So, is there leverage here for Romney/Ryan? I dunno. I’m not sure what Romney or Ryan think of the mess or propose to do about it. Probably not imprison 1,000 TBTF execs or close down AIG.
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OMG look at this, Pimco is getting increasingly agitated:
Central Banks Can’t Inflate Market Prices Forever: El-Erian
By artificially inflating asset prices above levels justified by sluggish fundamentals, these two central banks hope to calm market concerns, ignite animal spirits and trigger the wealth effect. And their actions are contagious.
…
There is a limit to how far and how long prices can deviate from fundamentals.
Seems to me the strategy was to try to get Ryan to lose his head, knowing that Biden would get a pass from the deeply-in-obama-love media.
But it backfired. It’s going to cost the Frauds with women. They don’t like bullies, and will punish bionic joe.
William @54
GREAT ad concept and powerful closing line: “We do not think any of that is funny…”
Romney-Ryan team are you paying attention? Wait, what? You’re already in the editing booth? Good for you, strike now while this particular iron is hot.
John J @66
Excellent analysis, from the checklist (yep, I too am sure that’s how he does things) to the Jesus v. Beagle puppy expressions. Mittens is looking better all the time, and it appears he’s finally playing the long game strategically and tactically. It’s about time.
elkh1 @72
You’ve hit the right analogy: Biden is the Joker. Ryan is Robin. Romney is Batman, the businessman with great wealth and a mission to fight the villains with ingenuity, brains and innovative technology. Holds up quite well.
1. Headline: “Ryan Ekes Out Narrow Win Over Biden & Moderator”. Repub spin meisters are too defensive, as if they feel Ryan lost. Probably, they are disappointed (as am I) that Ryan didn’t win a convincing victory like Romney achieved last week. The starting point for all conservative spin should be the CNN and CNBC snap polls showing a narrow Ryan victory. That way, the criticism of Biden doesn’t come off as loser sour grapes.
2. Luntz focus group – Almost all of them voted for Obama in 2008. They may claim to be undecided today, but their 2008 vote is the best predictor of how they view the candidates and how they will vote this year. If only a very small % of people like this change their votes or stay home, it will be a huge deal on Nov. 6th.
3. I am a big Ryan fan and would have preferred a victory similar to what Romney pulled off last week. Last night was good enuf IF the spin meisters get it right. An example of the some pretty good spin is this RNC ad http://www.gop.com/laughing/
Modern TV debates are won on visuals. The split screen requires a poker face while the other person is talking. What is being remembered from this debate is Biden smirking and guffawing as deadly serious issues were being discussed. While partisan Democrats see that as a sign not to take Romney/Ryan seriously among the less partisan it is only reinforcing the image this administration does not take issues important to the middle class seriously.
I lost power briefly, during the debate, and missed a few minutes of what was said. But I saw most of it. My impression was that Biden was almost maniacal looking at the beginning. This was obviously forced and rehearsed, as a counter to Obama’s passivity. It came across as very phony and rude, and I agree with those who say this will hurt Obama among those few, still undecided voters in the squishy center.
Ryan was okay, not great, I thought. Biden served him up some softball opportunities that he didn’t connect with. A few examples:
When Biden was filibustering on 5 trillion dollar tax cuts, Ryan should have talked about how the left calls letting Americans keep some of their money a tax cut. He should have really hit some of the supply side arguments, the Solyndras and Fiskers are NOT investments, they are monetary sacrifices to the green gods, made because the political left believes in a carbon free world, and that therefore some petulant EPA bureaucrats in Washington will make better decisions than millions and billions of free people, acting in their own best interests. The concepts of free people acting in their own interest on a level playing field with steady and consistent rules, not overly confiscatory, is a winner. We’ve got to keep hitting that one.
When Biden was trying to pound on the “few” businesses that make more than a million $ (or whatever amount he used) Ryan should have challenged back, that yes the government can take that money to pay for more welfare, but then that company will NOT have that money to hire a new employee, and if your number 1 priority is jobs, let the people keep their money. To be fair, I think Ryan tries to communicate these concepts, but in the debate, he was being too pedantic. Gotta be brief, forceful and pithy.
When Biden was going on about entitlements, why didn’t Ryan forcefully counter about the disgraceful testimony of Tim Geitner, who said “we don’t know what we’d like to do about these huge problems, but we know we don’t like your plan.” And we could have brought up the disgraceful lack of a budget resolution in the Senate for 3 years. Mention that political pandering is not political leadership.
I did like some of Ryan’s Libya answers to Biden’s ignorance. But when Biden said “We didn’t know” Ryan should have jumped all over that. “It’s your JOB to know.” And Ryan did mention that it was the anniversary of 9/11, that we should have been ready for action in any case. So Ryan sort of hinted at what I’m saying. But again, it could have been more forceful. As it turns out, Biden was lying when he said that, in any case. The Administration DID KNOW that the consulate wanted more security and they did NOTHING! This is shameful. Ryan failed to mention in this area, Obama’s clear desire to soft-peddle terrorism, calling Nadal Hassan’s Fort Hood murders an act of “workplace” violence. Ryan in a sentence can point out that it’s a bad choice in trying to achieve peace through appeasement. Whistling past the graveyard is Obama, whereas Romney/Ryan stand for peace through strength.
I didn’t hear Ryan mention Fast and Furious, which he could have brought up in the foreign policy portion, pointing out this betrayal of our Mexican allies and the Mexican people (along with Brian Terry) who are now being murdered with those weapons. Biden would have had to hem and haw about the Bush Administration, and Ryan could have dropped kicked any reply about this through the goalposts, countering that this election is about the future, and a Romney Administration will bring to justice or fire bureaucrats that approved this program or followed illegal orders. End with something about Obama’s bad choice for Attorney General, who hasn’t fired anyone, and instead promoted some and transferred others. Holder, in my mind probably was complicit, along with Obama. But if they claim they didn’t know, by god it was their job to know. Point this out.
At the end, Ryan could have summed up with all of this Administration’s bad choices, in people and in policy, and all the things they claim not to know, and then make a promise that a Romney/Ryan Administration would know more, take responsibility, make better choices to run our wars, our economy, our international relations, our law and our government.
Josh @ 65 said the following:
“Nobody lent trillions to unqualified poor, maybe one trillion. It’s the twelve trillion to *qualified* borrowers but AT INFLATED PRICES that was the problem, it’s called a “bubble”. And then the packaging and “shedding risk”, until the MARKET collapsed, that all them Wall Street rocket scientist geniuses never saw coming, that characterizes the 2008 collapse. AFAIK the financial industry has STILL NOT FIGURED OUT that the whole game is bad, not even the Fed. The Fed has supported the *market* by printing trillions, but changed not a thing about how it went bad: the banks big and small are still using an invalid mathematical model. The only *hint* I’ve *ever* seen on this in the MSM was Paulson making a crack in 2008 that the stupid Chinese had accepted too low returns on their investments. MBO and all that are not invalid if all the risks, including market collapse, are figured in, but MBO returning real risk-assessed rates would be so expensive, nobody would buy them. So the lies continue. Fixing it would indeed further depress real estate for another five years, it would break modern finance going back to GNMA. And someone should drop a nuke on AIG and blame it on the Iranians.”
I wanted to fully understand your argument but got lost in the jargon. What is “MBO” and “GNMA”? Could you reiterate what you said but fill in some of the details for the less intelligent?
I agree with your closing sentence:
“It’s like an asteroid that zoomed past in the night, that would have ended all life on Earth if it hit. Some people would come to religion if they only knew, but they slept through it, they haven’t heard.”
However my agreement is based more upon intuition without fully understanding the details. I find it disturbing that politicians on the outside tend to say they are going to fix the economy/system but once they are on the inside, they do nothing to change the status-quo. Also the amount of obvious lying is remarkable, e.g. bogus employment statistics, market manipulation, etc. To me, this indicates that the system is so broken that after one has all of the facts, he shuts up and hunkers down like everyone else. The situation maybe analogous to a run-away freight train going down hill with burned out brakes.
Getting back to the VP debate: Looks like Biden was commanded to neutralize Ryan through bluster and aggressive contradiction. By doing so, Biden/Obama were playing to the Left and the MSM (preaching to the converted). This may have been an unwise strategy since their target audience was female undecided voters. The MSM is trying to spin the debates as a victory for Biden but I don’t see it. Ryan came across as remarkably knowledgeable. However, Biden’s strategy of aggressive contradiction may have been the best Biden could do given Ryan’s command of the facts. I wonder if Obama will attempt a similar strategy in the next Presidential debate and if that strategy could be effective?
IMO, this was Ryan’s basic quandry – When you are in an argument with a 5-year-old, you can’t win by trying to shout louder or talk over the 5-year-older. It never works. You simply end up in a shouting match and look foolish, and with the mood and attitude Joe was in last night, that’s precisely what would have happened. And if we had gotten into that, it would have been a huge loss for Romney/Ryan without being much of a speed bump for Obama/Biden. After all, no one expects much from Joe except for crazy behavior. So, Ryan did all he could do; he tolerated it and got in as many words as he could around the bluster. It was as close as he could come to saying “I’m not having this discussion with you right now” which as anyone who has dealt with 5-year-olds knows, is the only real way to deal with them when they are in that mood.
I didn’t watch the debate last night. I actually DVRed it and watched it early this morning, after I had read through the commentary and analysis here at PJMedia and other web-based venues. The consensus shaping up seems to be that Biden acted like an oaf and Ryan eked out a narrow victory on policy. That’s certainly a plausible take on last night’s events, but I’m not sure I entirely agree with it. Here’s how I saw it.
• Biden came off looking more “statesmanlike” than I expected him to, albeit only in a swaggering, frat-boy manner. It’s obvious that he’s spent a lifetime learning how to persuade, woo, gladhand, and influence people. A regular Gatsby, that man is. I almost thought I liked him for awhile, but then I had to remind myself that he works for the most lying, corrupt, incompetent, and morally debased administration we’ve seen in a century. He also said absolutely nothing of substance. It was impossible to follow his line of thinking on any subject, and he has now convinced me (and apparently many others) that he has no idea what he’s talking about. When he began to discuss, in grave tones, the death of his wife and daughter by accident, there was a faint but chilling indication, perceptible only to finest sensibilities, of the towering Satanic pride, the utter sociopathy, of a man who would turn even this into a ploy for political power. His takeaway line of the night occured near the end of the debate, when he referred to the negative campaign ads as an “Obamanation.” Indeed!
• Again contrary to expectations, Ryan did not impress me as particularly knowledgable or “wonky.” In fact, neither side offered much to actually sink one’s teeth into, in terms of policy. I am upset that Ryan did not defend, nor did he seem to know, what the Catholic Church really teaches about abortion, namely that it is gravely evil, intrinsically disordered, and impermissible under any circumstances, but sometimes allowable under the heading of double effect, never as an intended result. This covers the standard “rape, incest, and life of the mother” objections. It would have been a defining moment in American politics for someone in his position to call this evil for what it is. Ryan had that opportunity handed to him in a golden goblet, and he ducked it. And on the other issues, I do not think that he offered much clarity on the economy, or foreign policy.
• It did not seem to me that Martha Raddatz was biasing the debate in favor of Biden. It seemed rather that she was annoyed by both candidates’ failure to offer specifics or to answer the questions she actually asked. She considers herself to be an aristocrat of the mind, above the fray and juvenility of electoral politics. She wanted the debate to be like the public affairs shows she regularly appears on, an informative discussion she could actually control. What she got was a fight between a rabid dog and an opossum, and it upset her visibly.
My upshot: Neither side covered themselves in glory last night. Neither side is ready to be serious about the disasters facing this country—at least not in public. As a nation, as an electorate, we do not engage reality with any degree of effectiveness. “Politics” could be described as the organ with which a society recognizes and confronts dangers offered by an objective, external world. We treat it more as a source of patronage and entertainment for domestic consumption; as a result the process has become solipsistic and false. We Americans are among the most politically apathetic of peoples, and that is going to hurt us in the end.
All things considered Joe Biden was arude obnoxious horses ass I never expected a sitting Vice Presidentto act so poorly. He even out did Al Gore. There isno doubt that Paul Ryan would make the better President if called upon.
Unsk @ 63: Romney and Ryan have yet to tell people what went wrong on our economy… This depression was largely caused by two things: • Letting the TBTF go berserk… • Disastrous over- regulation of business that has forced much too much of critical manufacturing overseas.
No argument with that. But you are missing the critical third piece, which relates specifically to jobs. And that is we continue to let in millions of new immigrants, legal and illegal, most of them on the low-end of the ability scale, into an economy that isn’t creating nearly enough jobs for these kind of people. This has put enormous downward pressure on wages and has led to massively high unemployment among blacks and young people. To say nothing of the cultural destruction caused by third-world importation.
Neither side ever addresses this. But then, I really don’t think either side wants to stop it.
Unsk & Josh-
Agree with your thoughts regarding the meltdown of the economy, but, with respect, you are still talking proximal, not root, causes.
The root cause being, of course, the entitled and deluded economic notion that the vast bulk of individual Americans and other Westerners possess, specifically the grotesque overvaluation of the material worth of their existence and labor, plus the willingness to do anything including smash society with debt that cannot be repaid in order to get what they “deserve”.
Matt is correct. Neither side has the stones to discuss matters like this of REAL import. Nor do most Americans have the ego strength or honesty to deal with the truth. Romney told a truth about voters receiving government checks voting for Dems solely on the basis of wanting to keep the checks coming and damn any consequences in terms of social and foreign policy, and half the country’s heads exploded. Political suicide though it might be, someone, somewhere, has to fall on his sword and make people face the truth regarding our economic demise by speaking it out loud.
I’m hoping for an R&R win but I don’t believe that either will discuss things like the root cause of our economic troubles during the campaign – or perhaps not afterwards, either. I wouldn’t mind being wrong about that but I don’t think I am.
Limpet6 #68
Yes!
I did not watch the debate but based on the clips I have seen and the descriptions, my first thought was “If I’m ever at a Batman movie and Joe Biden comes in, I gonna run like hell.”
Or run at least as far as my car, where the .223 rifle will be stored in the trunk, if I ever go to a Batman movie again.
Of course anyone paying attention for the last 30+ years knows Biden is unfit to hold high office. His buffoonery last night should convince anyone who hasn’t been paying attention that Biden of this and that Obama’s decision making process is deeply flawed if he picked this loon to be his VP.
Ryan was a more like gentleman expressing his ticket’s vision and plan for our country going forward after such a disastrous 4 years of Obama failures, while Biden sounded like a hollow shallow angry barking old man him and his party represents saying all the false statements with zero contents in his debate for the entire painful 90 minutes!
Ryan should have and could have been forceful than he was, answering Biden’s hollow false statements with a big punch, one of a winning boxer. One such example could be a punching response to Biden’s ultimate gaff that Iran does not and cannot develop nuclear weapons because they do not have the weapons to arm in the first place!!!
Of course nothing could be more than false and a dumb wishful thinking, if not a merely a pure lie here!
For the last 10 years and hundreds round of diplomacy, behind the scene meetings, inspections and one expose after another expose, it became a fact to millions of people across the globe that the Islamic Republic is hell bent on getting the nuclear weapon, with or without the West’s consent. They even admitted such in bold statements and in complete disregard to what Obama the empty suit emperor would or would not do. They are not taking this stupid administration seriously and know that this stupid administration does not mean real harm to their savage rule. After all it was Hillary Clinton herself who said that we the US are not looking to change their brutal regime or any real harm in destabilizing their nasty unpopular rule.
Then Biden said that it was because of his administration’s policy that Iran has become so isolated and crippled by tough sanctions blah blah blah…
Ryan should have counter punched him by saying: Oh really Mr. Vice President? What has that gotten for you? The fact that Islamic Republic has become so isolated and so strapped economically because of sanctions, is so irrelevant! They are still going forward with much more force than ever before enriching their uranium and get closer to their goal of acquiring that nuclear bomb! While at the same time laughing hard at us for being such wimps like paper tiger that this administration has proven us to be!
We need to be tougher on our foreign policy issues and counter punch the dumb democrats stance and policies for the last 4 years which has brought nothing but more resentment, failure, and clear rage by the Islamic world against us. Obama and the team have bolstered, strengthened and appeased our enemies to the core and the proof is clear for everyone who wants to see what is for real out there.
We need to tie the failures and successes of our foreign policies for the last century with history, aka Carter’s policies, JFK’s policies, Johnson’s policies, Reagan’s policies and European policies, their failures, our failures, rise of Islamic extremism, lack of leadership here and in the West, rise of UN and its contempt of our values and of human dignity, honor and human rights, and discuss foreign policy issues in that context crossing the T’s as we should educating our public. Romney Ryan need to listen more to the real experienced experts, generals, ex-foreign leaders, freedom fighters who are actively fighting for a cause of freedom and honor to get a better sense of how to throw that big blow and punch at the Obama team. Believe me the Obama team is as hollow, as shallow as any cultist group we have ever come across our political world. They can and will be defeated big if we come out and punch them with facts and lessons rather than jab them with smile and patience letting them giving people their garbage 1 liners hoping it gets them a big boost! People need content, the ream meat.. remember that famous commercial during the Presidential campaign in 94 where that wonderful smart adorable old lady said: Where is the meat?
That’s what we are talking about!
The GOP team played a “prevent defense” last night.
First, far fewer viewers (I suspect) and those are mostly political junkies who have already made up their minds. Little chance of major vote harvesting amongst undecideds.
Ryan didn’t need to score points, just not screw up. He succeeded in that.
Biden wanted to overcome Obama’s passivity as viewed amongst the base and also reassured the Democrat base that they had a fighter.
But Biden overplayed it and alienated some viewers and most pundits.
Overall, you don’t win playing defense but you don’t lose by doing it well. Ryan played defense very well.
The moderator made Jim Lehrer look good in comparison – faint praise I know.
Joe Biden; The coyote who cried wolf…One too many times.
nmu @ 87: The root cause being, of course, the entitled and deluded economic notion that the vast bulk of individual Americans and other Westerners possess, specifically the grotesque overvaluation of the material worth of their existence and labor, plus the willingness to do anything including smash society with debt that cannot be repaid in order to get what they “deserve”.
Perhaps true, and perhaps even worse than you make it out, but when there’s a burglar in the house it’s not time for such metaphysics.
/overposted
m @ 92: Joe Biden; The coyote who cried wolf
Obama’s laughing hyena.
no mo uro @ 87 said:
“The root cause being, of course, the entitled and deluded economic notion that the vast bulk of individual Americans and other Westerners possess, specifically the grotesque overvaluation of the material worth of their existence and labor, plus the willingness to do anything including smash society with debt that cannot be repaid in order to get what they “deserve”.”
This is actually one level removed from root cause. The state can continue to hand out free government cheese provided it has the economic resources to pay for it. America of the 1950s had more than adequate surplus economic capability to pay for decades of free government cheese. Unfortunately, the United States reached peak *cheap* oil in the mid-1970s and has been running on inertia ever since. The free government cheese continued to flow because America previously had an excellent credit rating and could pay for the cheese through deficit spending. However in 2008, we reached our credit limit and the government cheese began to disappear. We are watching a more advanced version of this process today in Greece and Spain. The people in Greece and Spain are furious that their supply of free cheese is drying up and out on the streets demanding for its return. Too bad for them that the economic process terminating their cheese supply started over 30 years ago.
Running a modern economy is like piloting an enormous supertanker through a narrow harbor. Rudder commands need to be anticipated for decades in the future due to inertia and lag times. This simply does not work in a modern democracy that demands instant gratification. Consequently we will observe the systematic failure of modern democracy as it faces the reality of limited cheap natural resources.
I’m a solid Romney/Ryan supporter. I despise the Dems so much I doubt I will ever knowingly shake hands with another one. I truly believe Democrat=criminal.
That said, Romney needs to just pipe down on the “America has to lead” nonsense. No, we don’t have to and neither does anyone else. We need to “lead” the way in paying off our bills. That means we don’t go fighting wars other places to help other people. If they want to fight, let them. We need to stay out and have our exchequer and economy recover.
Anyone who wants to say, “but we need to support our allies,” needs to get a clue. We don’t have allies, per se. We have countries that are trying to suck up to us for money and support. The closest thing we have to what most would consider an “ally” is Britain, and she’s collapsing into multiculti hopelessness which worsens by the day. Let Israel, Britain, Australia, South Korea, etc., fight their own battles. They can afford it now–and we can’t. Remember: charity begins at home and God helps those who help themselves. If we’re going to deploy troops somewhere, do it on the southern border and keep the damned illegals and drug runners out.
Well one thing I’ve learned for sure is that I wish we could have a select team of Belmont regulars involved in moderating these debates and asking the questions that nobody asks. And then answering them too.
Think of the fun! Subotai asking questions on defense and the Constitution. Blert on economics. Eggplant on a whole host of things. Matt on first principles. Wretchard on foreign affairs. Oh and so many more!
And then Walt could provide rhyming commentary on each section of the debate, since apparently it only takes him (amazingly) two minutes to turn around a new poem! And Old Salt can come in periodically just to slap the candidates around.
How would that be for a Town Hall?
Josh 93
Sweet. In the spirit of democratish compromise…In my household, this post-debate version of Biden shall henceforth be known as the The smirking hyena who cried wolf *.
;^)
*…Whilst trying to discreetly suck away all those pesky bits of free-range mutton that are obscuring his bleach-brightened chops.
“Nor do most Americans have the ego strength or honesty to deal with the truth.”
How fortunate for us Untermenschen that you–along with Josh, Matt, Unsk,and Eggplant, among others–do not share this flaw. The Belmont Club is truly blessed.
Jonah Goldberg says it better than i did earlier:
‘But he would have done himself and his ticket a great service if he had simply turned to Biden and said something like, “Mr. Vice President these are serious issues and serious disagreements about the future of our country. I don’t find them funny and, frankly, I find your behavior here tonight beneath the dignity of your office.” It would have gelded Biden, elicited spontaneous applause in the audience, and endured as the most memorable soundbite of the whole debate. And, it would have been true.’
And the reason ryan didn’t do that? Because he’s just another kabuki dancer like Biden; a pol not a statesman. Ryan is just another GOP wimp as far as I am concerned; not a fighter, just a talker. He’ll go far in that party…
There’s an important point I think many are missing. Biden’s antics were intended to get a rise out of Ryan in the hopes that he would sink to Joe’s level (emotional) at which point Joe could out ‘emote’ him easily and look a winner while perhaps making Ryan look foolish by getting him rattled and/or over-extended into uncomfortable areas of meaningless discussion in which he might easily say something he could be taken to task for by the media later.
If that had happened, Joe would not have looked so strange, because Ryan would have been doing it too and people could say they were BOTH rude and over the top.
Didn’t happen!
Instead, Ryan stayed in a more polite and intellectual realm, focusing on facts and reasoned discourse. This looks weak to the degree that we wanted him to take Joe to task, but is nonetheless indicative of a great deal of self control and inner strength.
By NOT extending into Jokin’ Joe’s territory, Joe now looks ridiculous to many and more than a bit strange to pretty much everyone else. It would have been nice to hear Ryan deliver a snappy come back to put Joe in his place, but it would have diluted the brute strangeness and childishness of Joe’s performance. It was quite satisfying, all in all, to see Joe put on his ‘bully class clown’ act to no effect whatsoever. To the degree he has any self-reflective sentience whatsoever, I think he’s the one who was rattled.
Joe’s mission was to hook Ryan’s ego and take him down with it.
Joe failed, utterly.
84. Matt,
“A regular Gatsby, [Biden] is.”
Maybe so, but remember what happened to Gatsby at the end of the novel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF7aca_fRRs
I don’t do surveys and I don’t watch televised “debates” so I missed the Biden-Ryan- Raddatz show. In the aftermath I see that Democrats like their side to be boors so they remember it fondly. In other memories the discussion seems to be converging on Biden’s random giggling at anything Ryan said; Biden’s silly and wrong claims about the White House’ knowledge of the facts in Benghazi and Biden saying that he voted against the Iraq war when it is a matter of record that he voted for it.
I’m guessing that “giggling idiot Biden” will be the most lasting memory. Biden and Ryan probably helped Romney look good because they are living evidence of the choices that Romney and Obama make.
Mac @95 Ally: “one that is associated with another as a helper”. Two way street.
Roughcoat #98:
Why the ad hominem, RC? What does that add to the discussion?
And going straight to Godwin? Your posts usually aren’t like that.
If you dispute my premise, I gladly encourage productive debate from your POV rather than that type of snark. Despite your assertions to the otherwise I do not believe that I’m perfect (nor are the others – sorry, guys). And there was a time not too many decades ago that I had tendencies to overestimate what I deserved for what I do at work. It was a hard thing to admit that I did not, but I eventually did. As have, I would guess, the other posters you named and much of the BC posters (perhaps not all).
I can’t say the same for about 95% of the people I encounter, and I work with the public at all income levels. So in my (admittedly) limited sample, most folks aren’t dealing with this honestly.
Do you honestly believe, and can you articulate, the opposite of the point I’m trying to make? Do you actually think that most Americans are as realistic about their material expectations vs the worth of their output compared to Americans in, say, 1925 or 1870, or even 1970? Based upon what evidence? Trust your eyes and ears.
Would the subprime thing have happened in 1925 or 1870, even if the banks were offering the same types of loans? I submit that it would not, and that the reason it would not is that the banks would have been marketing a product to a public that was not receptive due to who they were and what they believed in. The expectations and values of the public have changed (not for the better) in particular since the 1960′s. In the pre-WWII era a far, far greater percentage of the U.S. public were averse to using debt to achieve wealth, stuff, and status that they told themselves they deserved simply because they were above ground, and that their neighbors had it. The populace then, for some reasons I understand and others I perhaps do not, had a better ability to gauge their worth monetarily and even more importantly to derive happiness – even a sense of success – from things not material.
I don’t want to speak for Matt but I think he is onto something with what he is saying in his post:
[we are not]…serious about the disasters facing this country—at least not in public. As a nation, as an electorate, we do not engage reality with any degree of effectiveness.
When it comes to economic disasters as well as the social ones like abortion etc., Matt is right, we do NOT engage seriously, and the starting point for doing so would be to return to realistic expectations and assessment of the value of a unit of labor at any particular job and the material expectations thereof. I do not know a perfect plan for returning the populace to that innate state of getting this right, but I do know it is vital to our survival and prosperity.
RC, I have always thought of YOU as one of the ones that gets it. Can’t understand the hostility of your post.
Eggplant #94:
Love the analogy of the big ship in the channel. As someone who has driven boats I’d say that is a terrific metaphor.
We need better bow thrusters.
I agree that not taking the bait was the best stance for Ryan. Straying from that opens up all sorts of unforeseen consequences.
My 32 year-old daughter, mother of one and former Obama voter, found herself surprised by how appealing Ryan was and, if I understand what she was trying to say, seemed mostly impressed by his earnestness while not being alienated by any of his policy stances.
Earnestness is good when contrasted with the Chicago machine tone of the Democratic party and the past 4 years in particular.
My wife was with Matt, almost our of her chair when Ryan rejected the church’s dogma on abortion. But I think we have to take the American people where they are, which is not yet ready to think seriously about what abortion is and means.
It was good for him to base his/their abortion policy on “logic and reason.” The notion that those who hold to traditional, objective morality are fools must be reversed, since it is the liberal who is the fool. We may be able to get there pretty quickly, in which case the rationalizations that support Roe v. Wade will crumble like the same arguments did when slavery was rejected.
Eggplant #94:
“Consequently we will observe the systematic failure of modern democracy as it faces the reality of limited cheap natural resources.”
Actually, I think that “modern democracy” or at least the American version, is fully capable of keeping the ball rolling indefinately. But only if we truly make use of our current capabilities and future potential. We have enormous – and still growing – artificial restrictions on our productive capacity. Most of these are politically driven in some fashion, whether it be government regulations, private lawsuits, or favors for special interest groups. They want it both ways – eliminate the source of the Design Margin while relying on it to provide the free cheese.
We live in a universe that is for all practical purposes infinite from the human persective. We just have to use it.
“And the reason ryan didn’t do that?” – cjm
In a limited way, Ryan DID attempt to slap down Biden’s overtly unprofessional behavior. At one point as I listened, he stated (paraphrasing), “Mr. Vice President, I believe you and I would both be best served if we stopped interrupting each other”. In one well crafted sentence, he highlighted the constant interruptions of Biden, while not sounding like he was whining about it or pointing fingers.
ere are some aftermath thoughts.
What I am going to say up front is this; from what I have read and heard over quite a bit of time…years, is that Biden and libations are life partners.
Was there a breathalyzer test given before he swaggered to the debate table tonight? Somewhat jesting there… most probably not. Curious though that several pundits felt safe enough to reference his relationship between libation, bar rooms and loose lip speak. Anyone who has had that trilogy in a person close to them knows that even when sober (two -three drinks in the belly or a lingering hanger from the night before) this profile of a man can lead to excused offensive behavior, pity, and at times awe over how he does it. How does he string a coherent sentence together, a paragraph…and surprisingly write reports and give speeches that garner support. OK. He does just that.
He did suffer the lose his wife and son. Tragic. And a life long hardship. Of course he has been seamless most times in telling of his family’s horrible experience in pivotal moments when he needs a mental helmsman to rudder him back into the shipping lanes of politicking. He did this last night. Always a hall pass., yes? I use the definitive, always, with a tad of cautions to reserve a tiny quark of space for those who lack couth out there..No pass from them.
Now I come to Paul Ryan. It has been said and written since last night that he lacked the element of ‘pit bull’ as a potential VP. That Romney made a mistake in this particular category. Here is a perspective from little me.
Paul Ryan makes no apology for his grasp of the true facts. He is slow to frustrate. In best teacher form he will state the problem and solution in several ways but remain focused on the content not to deviate from the point. He graciously reveals Mitt Romney’s goodness..Something we have been blessed to hear about a politician in these dark times. Selfish times.. He has been well raised (Catholic school and home) to keep his facial speak to a minimum so as not to interupt, his opponent, advisory or colleague with distracting body language, lip-smacking, and, the worst, loud words,(even off camera) thus giving his disciplined better self over to listening in order that he might cogently respond. (Sans Biden*) He is calm. Collected and informed. If I am aware of Biden’s lifestyle, which includes the egger-on bully, as well as substandard frontal lobe governing, it would be strange if Ryan wasn’t also privy. Biden mentioned Obama once, maybe twice. No personal good will stories there. Guess we must hope there is a morsel of compassion under the shields of BHO. Wouldn’t it be a fine thing to know if it did exist? My guess will be kept within.
So, how do we converse with a man of bar room culture at the tip of his tongue; a man who has achieved a high post of recognition and political currency? How would we go into a debate with that wild card out there as a third voice? I possibly would go for the joke in a debate that carried less weight. I would be confident that my head was clearer than my opponents. My Irish ego would fire up to warm the room.
Now turn to tonight and Ryan vs Biden. The moderator will surely be known as biased by those honest enough to call a spade.. (until tonight, I wasn’t convinced of the stacked deck in Martha; sorry Martha). Or that she was a private guest at the Bidens last spring?
My analysis of this compared and contrasted debate is as follows: how would it of come off if both candidates acted as Biden. With Martha as the wild card, how would it of played for Ryan to call her out on her bias? There is a whole lot of blue states that would have cried foul….on her behalf setting off a version of Big Bird. Whiney whippersnapper meets seasoned veteran politician. Why do I think this? Because Biden’s trilogy was front and center. Those that follow him give a pass. Those that want the Democrats to win close their eyes to his buffoonery. His elder statesman status grants him leniency(MSM) While Ryan may have looked weak on first blush, I saw a real American, speaking American values which are apparent in his whole demeanor. Yes, he looked like he was at a congressional caucus to some degree… But isn’t that a working zone? Biden could have just as well been leaning on a walnut brass-lined bar as much as sitting at the VP debate table. Who do I want to lead me; ask of me to be a good citizen? The one who showed restraint, exhibited knowledge of our great EXCEPTIONAL country’s troubles, trials, and is committed to developing a plan in partnership, not ideas and magical thinking that evaporated with the next gulp of air.. I want a partner for my president who doesn’t treat colleagues like a corner saloon go round. Respect is like water in the desert. I think Ryan got the memo on that growing up. As for Biden? Would you say he values others integrity…. and does it seem like he expects to be treated with integrity and respect even as he demeans and disrespects a fellow member of Congress? That’s what little me saw.
Just wondering.
So the voting booth will help…
no mo uro @ 103 said:
“Love the analogy of the big ship in the channel. As someone who has driven boats I’d say that is a terrific metaphor. We need better bow thrusters.”
That’s cool! Are/Were you a ship’s captain or harbor pilot? I’ve tried to convince my wife to take a cruise on an ocean freighter so I could get some close exposure to modern ship technology. In particular, I’d like to a see an operating engine room in a modern ocean ship.
I based my earlier comment about lag time from piloting a sailplane. With a typical sailplane, when you push the control stick to one side, nothing immediately happens and then slowly the sailplane starts to roll in the direction that you want it to go. You then have to anticipate how far you want the sailplane to roll and then give opposite stick as the the plane approaches the desired orientation (It’s all about leading the vehicle’s lag time). It’s my understanding this is also true with big transport planes and the Space Shuttle.
Getting back to ship technology (I’m now free associating): There’s a wonderful tourist ship that operates from Queenstown, New Zealand called the “TSS Earnslaw”. This ship has a triple expansion steam engine and they actually allow the passengers to be in the engine room while it’s operating. This engine is beyond amazing to watch.
I think Roughcoat’s #98 comment was referring back to peterike’s #96 comment. A problem with the Internet is you can’t read the other guy’s body language and it’s easy to misinterpret a comment. It’s best not to take offense unless it’s clear the other guy wants to be offensive. Then it’s best to ignore him.
RWE @ 105 said:
“We live in a universe that is for all practical purposes infinite from the human perspective. We just have to use it.”
Wise words. Unfortunately to access that infinite universe we need a functioning Space Program. Our Dear Leader Obama has effectively shot the Space Program between the eyes. Even worse, there is no indication that Romney will be any improvement over Obama with regards to the Space Program. Those of us in the aerospace profession are sort of standing on one foot waiting to have our heads loped off.
clementine @107 wrote: several pundits felt safe enough to reference his relationship between libation, bar rooms and loose lip speak. Anyone who has had that trilogy in a person close to them knows that even when sober (two -three drinks in the belly or a lingering hanger from the night before) this profile of a man can lead to excused offensive behavior, pity, and at times awe over how he does it. How does he string a coherent sentence together, a paragraph…and surprisingly write reports and give speeches that garner support. OK. He does just that.
and: how do we converse with a man of bar room culture at the tip of his tongue; a man who has achieved a high post of recognition and political currency?
and: While Ryan may have looked weak on first blush, I saw a real American, speaking American values which are apparent in his whole demeanor. Yes, he looked like he was at a congressional caucus to some degree… But isn’t that a working zone? Biden could have just as well been leaning on a walnut brass-lined bar as much as sitting at the VP debate table.
These are very insightful remarks about a complex Biden. Besides his loss of his first wife he also survived a stroke, if memory serves me. So it is possible that he has a bit of frontal lobe disinhibition together with whatever ethanol effect has dissolved his neurons. These may help explain Biden’s loose tongue and strange affect and bursts of passion, together with his underlying aggressive personality and his special mix of affability and bullying.
We have spent a lot of time trying to understand BHO’s personality and a lot less time looking into Biden’s. This analysis helps a lot.
As I suspected in posting #91, viewership was way down from the first debate.
This one pulled in 51 million viewers while the Romney/Obama debate got 70 million, a 27% lower rating. Or another way to put it, about 40% more people watched the first debate compared to the second.
And here he is in all his laughing , smirking glory. I give you, ladies and gentlemen, the Vice President of the United States of America, Jolly Joe Biden: ( brought to you by the RNC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCtemaHgjyA
Josh: “There WOULD be riots in the streets, if people even realized how close we came. It’s like an asteroid that zoomed past in the night, that would have ended all life on Earth if it hit. Some people would come to religion if they only knew, but they slept through it, they haven’t heard.”
Oh, YEAH. It was close. I started wargaming this whole thing in my head in about 2006. I started to get scared as hell in early 2007. I was petrified in December 2008 when it looked like the lid was gonna finally blow off. I have no idea why it didn’t; I didn’t think they had a prayer.
One of the most remarkable things in politics today is the relatively sanguine attitude EVERYBODY has toward the deficit/debt. A trillion and a quarter a year with no end in sight? Eh, wake me up when we get to quadrillions. It wasn’t that long ago that a hundred billion a year was considered outrageous. The Dems pounded on Bush relentlessly for a few hundred billion a year. Then, VERY SUDDENLY, We went from a few hundred billion to $1.4 trillion in 2008/2009. Can I get a holy crap? And crickets are chirping.
Defense, SS and Medicare are the biggest items in our budget. It’s not brain surgery to figure out that each of these items is going to have to be cut in half (on average), and that’s if we do it damned quick. Even that doesn’t preclude a world-crashing default. Your analogy of an asteroid is apt…the destructive potential is about the same for our civilization.
I go and buy more canned and dry goods, fuel, ammo and supplies as often as I can. I’m gobsmacked at how few people seem to be stocking up. They really don’t see it. Or can’t comprehend the danger. I’m not as ready as I’d like to be, but I know I’m more ready than 99% of my fellow citizens…and I THINK opsec has been good enough that I shouldn’t have anybody (that I haven’t invited) knocking on my door when TSHTF.
I’m not even going to vote. I’d prefer that Romney wins, but I don’t think any man can fix what’s wrong anymore. And I suspect the government will be using the voter lists in bad ways soon. And my state isn’t even in play anyway. I moved recently and it seems like a good time to start withdrawing myself from large parts of the net. I’d like it if I had one modest checking account, a mortgage, utility bill accounts and not much else on paper. Long-term savings is physical, hold-it-in-your-hand-and-stash-it-in-the-yard precious metals, short term savings is cash, and most of my net worth is already tied up in physical, stash-it-in-the-basement commodities.
If things turn out the way they look to me like they have to, I’m going to be a very rich man. Or very dead. More likely the latter, I suspect…but I’m working on an escape hatch from the country if it gets bad and I have time to maneuver…
I want to draw attention to what I felt was the most alarming statement of the entire debate. It was during the discussion of Iran developing nuclear weapons. Biden said:
Biden is correct that there are two basic stages to building a nuclear weapon. You need to acquire bomb-grade enriched uranium, and you need to build a weapon to put it in. But he seems utterly misinformed as to the relative difficulty and concealability of the two steps. Enriching uranium to weapons-grade is a massive industrial process requiring nation-state capability — massive banks of centrifuges, power plants to run them — we know they are doing that. There are publicity photos of Ahmaninejad strolling through the banks of centrifuges.
But there is no purpose behind enriching uranium to bomb-grade except for building nuclear weapons. Bomb-grade uranium has no other application. The fact that they are creating bomb-grade uranium means that they intend to put it in a nuclear weapon. Period. Compared to the enormous effort and expense involved in enriching uranium to weapons-grade, building the actual bomb is much easier — on the level of an engineering project. Especially if the Iranians have acquired the sort of blueprints that Khan was peddling when he sold them the centrifuge technology in the first place. Building an atomic bomb, especially a gun-type device like Little Boy, could very feasibly be done in secrecy. It would require little more than a well-equipped machine shop with commercially available computer-operated machine tools and a handful of skilled engineers and operators. It would make no sense for Iran would be going to the crushing expense of enriching uranium to bomb-grade without a parallel program to build a bomb to put it in. And there is no reason to believe that such a bomb manufacturing program could not be easily concealed.
Yet Biden asserts both. Where does Biden get the idea that “Both the Israelis and we know we’ll know if they start the process of building a weapon”, when such a weapon could be built in a machine shop, generating no radiation, using small amounts of electricity? He could reasonably make the assertion that “Neither the Israelis nor our own intelligence have detected a bomb-making program”, but on what basis could he possibly assert that we would know if one existed when it could be so very easily concealed?
Is the Obama administration really this delusional about Iran’s intent and capability?
“The Roman method for handling a berserker attack…”
First time I’ve seen the Viking-era berserkers matched against the Romans of centuries earlier.
They’re coming to take Joe away, ha ha!
Two debates so far – Romney vs an Empty Chair was a wipe out of historic proportions and Ryan vs a Set of Dentures was, well just . This second debate would have been a disaster for the Dem ticket if any politician other than Crazy Uncle Joe tried it. As it was I think most undecideds probably turned it off 10 minutes in. Most Dems probably ate it up because, well because most Dems are dim bulbs full of resentments and passions, emotions and anger but little knowledge or even intellectual curiosity. Republicans on the other hand likely wonder how a guy so obviously unqualified for any position of responsibility ever managed to make it to Vice President.
Biden is a known buffoon so his buffoonery does not hurt him. What it does for his boss is another question. I doubt strongly Biden changed any minds but it probably did give his base a morale boost, but I am not sure if it makes Obama’s job easier or harder in the next base. As noted Obama cannot get away with a weird old Uncle Joe against Romney. That would just throw the undecideds to the Republicans. At the same time he cannot sleep walk through the next debate either without his Yahoo base going nuts. They will want a foaming at the mouth attack, the kind they get in a teleprompter assisted stump speech in front of a friendly crowd and that is not going to happen either so they might come out of the next debate disappointed which is the last thing Obama needs at this point.
In the end Joe may have made Barry’s job just a little harder.
Just for everybody to know, the Islamic Regime that has occupied Iran and holding it’s nation as hostage for the past 35 years with the blessings of “Democrats, liberals, communists and socialists” in the US and Europe has been sending its highly paid off agents here to the US as so called “Lobbyists” for the sole purpose of reconciliation, and easing off the pressure between the 2 countries. These agents are here free in our country US and live among us. They have been the biggest foreign lobbyists and campaigners to the “Democratic” party heavily for the past 12 years or so.
Obama, Biden and Hillary Clinton have accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations in the past 12+ years from these agents. They of course are all US citizens who freely on red carpets go back and forth to Iran, report their accomplishments, any updates, get new funding and come back to the US again and work their thing all over again.
Several of these entities have had lavish fund raising dinners for both Hillary and Obama. Biden is also a close friend to a few of them.
This is for all of you to know and be informed of course, since our media is never going to look into these not only unlawful cases, let alone even inquiring about any possible investigation.
If you wonder why this administration is so adamantly against any change of rule in Iran or better said regime change even by the way of its own courageous people is because of this. Remember that Iranians who despise their totalitarian regime poured down the streets of the country 3 years ago and Obama did nothing, while Hillary said that they do not want to interfere with the internal issues in Iran. 2009 was the golden opportunity that could be used to help and support the 70 million of secular freedom loving Iranians to topple their barbaric regime and Obama and his ilks put chose to be silent and watch the murderers continue their crime.
This administration is corrupt to the core and only history will expose to us the American people their mafia style lies, deceits and cover ups.