The Unforgiven
The man who shot Jimmy Hoffa, or so he himself says, was Frank “The Irishman” Sheeran, who told author Charles Brandt where, how, and when he put Hoffa down in a book based on his deathbed confessions. He told Brandt that his chief qualification for killing Hoffa was that Hoffa trusted him. Which kind of tells you what kind of guy he was. But the most intriguing part of the story is how, after he had committed more than a score of murders for the mob, Sheeran figured he could still square things with God. Brandt writes:
During his final illness … he told me he had made his confession and received communion from a visiting priest … the following day, a week or so before he lost strength and stamina, Frank Sheeran asked me to pray with him, to say the Lord’s Prayer and and Hail Mary with him, which we did together.
Some of the reviewers at Amazon were struck at how Sheeran would try to con God and get a “shot” at heaven. Now, before anyone on the Left starts to laugh at religious manias, let’s hear it from Hugo Chavez, that paragon of Marxism. The Wall Street Journal reports:
Concern about Venezuela President Hugo Chávez’s health grew Friday amid reports the cancer-stricken leader will seek emergency medical care in Brazil, a day after the president broke down during a religious service and begged Jesus Christ to grant him life.
Mr. Chávez, who faces a potentially close presidential contest in October, made his plea during a televised Catholic Mass in his home state of Barinas Thursday. “Give me life, even if a life in flames, or in pain, it doesn’t matter,” Mr. Chávez said as grim-faced family members looked on and clapped.
Or as it goes in Spanish, “Dame vida, aunque sea vida llameante, aunque sea vida dolorosa, no me importa.” Chavez was almost echoing Fyodor Dostoevsky, whose character Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment said almost exactly the same thing: “let me live; any which way, but let me live.”
“Where is it?” thought Raskolnikov. “Where is it I’ve read that someone condemned to death says or thinks, an hour before his death, that if he had to live on some high rock, on such a narrow ledge that he’d only room to stand, and the ocean, everlasting darkness, everlasting solitude, everlasting tempest around him, if he had to remain standing on a square yard of space all his life, a thousand years, eternity, it were better to live so than to die at once! Only to live, to live and live! Life, whatever it may be!…How true it is! Good God, how true! Man is a vile creature!…And vile is he who calls him vile for that,” he added a moment later.
The problem with forgiveness is that it runs counter to human notions of revenge and justice. A search through the Internet will bring up such such nettlesome conundrums as Can God forgive the Nazis? Inevitably someone online argues that the problem of forgiving the Jew-killers is analogous to the false problem of forgiving the Christ-killers.
Big advocate of mercy here. Have experienced it greatly in my own life. Didn’t bury Jimmy Hoffa under Giant Stadium, but did a lot of dastardly deeds in my day. Grateful for the cross and the empty tomb.
Forgiveness and Resurrection
” “The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs.” “You see,” said Aslan.
“They will not let us help them.
They have chosen cunning instead of belief.
Their prison is only in their own minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out.”
The cycle of revenge and those who promote it and profit from it was well understood by Nicias in 415 BC
He said–
“We must remember also that we have only just recovered in some measure from a great plague and a great war, and are beginning to make up our losses in men and money.
It is our duty to expend our new resources upon ourselves at home, and not upon begging exiles who have an interest in successful lies; who find it expedient only to contribute words, and let others fight their battles; and who, if saved, prove ungrateful; if they fail, as they very likely may, only involve their friends in a common ruin…”—
Nicias, speaking in the Athenian Ekklesia against the Sicilian expedition in 415 BC.
… the false problem of forgiving the Christ-killers.
“Vengeance is Mine. I shall repay.”
- Deuteronomy 32:35
Alyosha is correct. Ivan is advocating rebellion. By calling for the answers to be revealed here and now he is denying the possibility of Free Will, for once the answer is given then what is there to choose? For Christians that would be accepting the gift offered by Satan at the Temptation on the mountain. For Jews it is simpler. Life is the gift and the answer in the here and now. To demand an infinity of it is to demand that men become like a multitude of gods and debases the value of the gift. Arguably Islam, in removing all choice from the human agent and transferring all responsibility to an abstract and arbitrary power that promises to instantaneously reward violence in this world and the submissive abnegation of individuality and rejection of life, accepts Satan’s offer.
What is Chavez offering to give up to prove his sincerity? Is he repenting of his crimes or recanting any false doctrine? He offers nothing and solicits applause from those he debases with his mockery of faith.
V 2,
Good points.
Clint Eastwood knows what it is to be The Unforgiven.
“We all have it coming Kid.”
“Yes, I asked God into my heart, and my life has changed, but I still sin.”
“So?”
“Well, I don’t think I’m worthy of His love.”
“You don’t think you’re worthy?”
“No.”
“And you asked God into your heart, just like He asked? And you meant it with all your mind, body and soul?”
“Yeah.”
“Do you think God is a liar?”
“No.”
“Then stop feeling sorry for yourself and get your butt to church. Tomorrow’s Easter. Renew your vows to Him tomorrow, follow His commandments, and quit your whinnin’. You’re starting to sound like a durn liberal.”
L3 in the new again, making waves!
But CPA is challenging that version of events. Appearing on CNN Friday evening, Leo Linbeck, a Houston construction magnate who is one of the super PAC’s primary funders, said he was not aware that Cantor’s donation had been earmarked specifically to target Manzullo.
“It’s news to me. I don’t know what their expectation was,” Linbeck said. “For us, it came in, it went to our super PAC, and we spent it on the activity that was underway.”
Linbeck also framed the Cantor donation in terms that are sure to roil the House Republican Conference.
“We are delighted that the House leadership of the GOP shares our vision of creating real competition for entrenched incumbents,” Linbeck said. “I mean, that’s so forward-thinking of them. This idea that committee chairs and House leadership ought to actually compete for the support of their district, we applaud their foresight.”
House GOP leadership aides, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said they were perplexed by Cantor’s decision to donate to a group that was openly trying to take down sitting incumbents of his party.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/74926_Page2.html#ixzz1rOpajJQM
God forgives, but we are probably doomed to return here and try again until we get it right. I think there is a fairly good probability re-incarnation is a reality. The Jew-hater may come back as one, the misogynist may return as a feminists, etc, etc. Death is not the end and thus, not an escape. Many will not feel comforted by that.
The theory behind the Jewish repentance at Rosh Hoshanah and Yom Kippur is that God, who can of course do anything, chooses to limit his omnipotence to create a space for human choice. If we ask God will forgive all our trespasses, all the laws we broke and vows we took and offenses we committed, as long as the other party to our transgression is God himself. The Kol Nidre is a legal argument for releases from contractual obligations between a member of the community and the God who has promised protection for adherence to the terms of the contract. What God does not forgive are offenses against other human beings. Those remain unforgiven unless we obtain absolution and pardon from those we have injured in this world.
By withdrawing just enough to transfer responsibility and the power to act to resolve our injuries, to do right or wrong to forgive or seek the divine power of retribution to be good or evil, God gives power to this world. He gives life to life and makes creation not just a static dream that may vanish in an instant and therefor is void of meaning, as is the world according to Islam. If we choose wrong and do injury to the penitent they can still call on God to assist them. He has not departed and we shall be judged. We are however not mere objects whose actions mean nothing.
We will be surprised by who is in Heaven, and who is not.
The story of Manasseh, King of Judah, comes to mind (2 Kings 21, 2 Chronicles 33). He built altars to the pagan gods Baal and Asherah, sacrificed his own children to them, moving the Lord to anger against him. He became a captive of the Assyrians, who led him into Babylon in shackles with a hook in his nose. But the Lord found forgiveness even for him. 2 Chronicles 33:13 “And when he prayed to him, the LORD was moved by his entreaty and listened to his plea; so he brought him back to Jerusalem and to his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD is God.”
> Some of the reviewers at Amazon were struck at how Sheeran would try to con God and get a “shot” at heaven.
There is no conning God, of course. But the Lord’s sin accounting system is somewhat different than what we think. When the teaching of theology in the mainstream Protestant churches came to a halt a couple of generations ago, people were left with the notion that they’d make it to Heaven if, on balance, they had led a “good” life. There is not much in the Bible to comfort someone with such a view. It is both harder, and easier, than that. The lukewarm shall be spat out. God will indeed forgive your most heinous sins. All it takes is to give up your own will and submit to God’s, in love, fear, and faith.
Based on interviews before his death, I will not be surprised to see Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven. If he was as truly repentant as he sounded, Jesus’ sacrifice was great enough even for Dahmer’s sins, gross and repugnant as they were.
That Pro and Contra chapter in The Brothers Karamazov was one of the top two parts of the book that affected me the most the first time I read it at age 19. Ivan had such a good argument. But in the end, I had to go with what Paul said in Romans 8:18, “I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.” Without that faith, can anyone say no to vengeance? And if vengeance rightfully belongs to us, then the world ultimately becomes a place where few if any are left standing.
Sheeran and Chavez at death’s door appear to want salvation without repentance. That won’t happen.
Here’s an interesting video of some people who were, you might say, scared straight: “they felt like they belonged there”
Sheeran didn’t bury Hoffa under Giants Stadium. Hoffa’s body was cremated in a funeral parlor if I remember the book correctly.
Anyway, Sheeran also took credit for killing Joey Gallo, delivering the guns to the Kennedy assassination, and perhaps most damningly, getting Joe Biden elected to the U.S. Senate.
Perhaps the greatest obstacle to faith is not in accepting the possibility of a loving God so much as in believing that anything could exist which could love us.
Faith must pass all doubts, even these.
But even in cold, hard anthropology, perhaps watching a criminal seek absolution on the edge of death is the last good they can do for the community, finally endorsing the dominant and necessary narrative.
And perhaps it helps the principal, who may just be an average guy like you or me, through the journey.
Just watched this today:
http://180movie.com/
What’s interesting to me is that when Ray Comfort starts getting people to admit their sins, most everyone admits very forthrightly that they are a liar, thief, fornicator, etc. And quite a lot of those people, having acknowledged what they are, fully admit that they should/shall end up in hell.
And they smile as they say this.
I had a few thoughts in reaction to this passage the in documentary:
1. Everyone knows in their heart what they are. No one is going to be genuinely surprised by what goes on record when they stand before God to be judged.
2. No one can plead ignorance.
3. The smiling is a weird defense mechanism.
That passage from ‘Crime and Punishment’ is very similar to this one from ‘The Hunchback of Notre Dame’:
“The miserable man said to himself that, when his hands should be worn out with fatigue, when his cassock should tear asunder, when the lead should give way, he would be obliged to fall, and terror seized upon his very vitals. Now and then he glanced wildly at a sort of narrow shelf formed, ten feet lower down, by projections of the sculpture, and he prayed heaven, from the depths of his distressed soul, that he might be allowed to finish his life, were it to last two centuries, on that space two feet square. Once, he glanced below him into the Place, into the abyss; the head which he raised again had its eyes closed and its hair standing erect.”
And if you go all the way back to the Mahabharata, there is still the same thing, in the story of the man lost in a terrifying forest, who falls into a pit and hangs there suspended by a vine. Surrounded by monsters and venomous snakes, he notices a beehive high above him, from which drops of honey are falling. And amid all the terrifying dangers that beset him, his life hanging by a thread, he stretches out his finger to catch the honey. He still cannot give up his hope and desire for life.
I read East of Eden many many years ago – it is a retelling of the Cain and Abel story. What made it worth reading for me was at the end when the characters discussed the wording in the biblical passage. What one discovered was that the original word (in Hebrew according to East of Eden characters) in the passage was “timshel” meaning “thou mayest” as in “thou mayest rule over sin”…making the story about choice, not something ordained or commanded. From the book:
“But ‘Thou mayest’! …that makes a man great, that gives him stature with the gods, for in his weakness and his filth and his murder of his brother he has still the great choice. He can choose his course and fight it through and win…It is easy out of laziness, out of weakness, to throw oneself into the lap of deity, saying, ‘I couldn’t help it; the way was set.’ But think of the glory of the choice! That makes a man a man. A cat has no choice, a bee must make honey. There’s no godliness there…And I feel that I am a man. And I feel that a man is a very important thing—maybe more important than a star. This is not theology. I have no bent toward gods. But I have a new love for that glittering instrument, the human soul. It is a lovely and unique thing in the universe. It is always attacked and never destroyed— because ‘Thou mayest.’”
Of course someone like Chavez could only be faking his cancer. I only wonder who will be so low as to play along with whatever miracle “cures” him- whether that’s Cuban healthcare or Christ’s intervention.
Wretchard mentions C.S. Lewis– who played a role in Chuck Colson’s midlife conversion from Nixon’s hatchet man to Prisoner 23226 in a federal prison and the eventual founder of Prison Fellowship. The Anchoress (on Wretchard’s blogroll) posted about Colson’s brain hemorrhage on Thursday:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/theanchoress/2012/04/05/chuck-colsons-easter-gift/
The fourth commenter from the top tells about Chuck’s personal kindness to a friend who was sent to prison. “. . . the next thing I knew Colson was flying in and going with me to see my friend and to put his prison ministry local people onto the case. My friend was watched over and came back to his faith.”
The lovely thing about repentance and forgiveness is the way it can spread from one person to another.
As for Chavez, he reminds me of Heine’s cynical words toward the end of his life: “Dieu me pardonnera, c’est son métier.”
thank you all for your thoughts and words.
So many times I have returned to this forum and found perspective, comfort, and renewal, much like going to church.
Maybe it’s perverse that anonymous strangers can open their hearts and minds, step back from their passions and righteous wroth to take stock of things.
Maybe it’s the anonymity that allows people to reveal intimacies of thought and history forbidden and punished by the strictures of their daily lives.
Either way, we owe much to our Host, Mr. Fernandez, for creating and maintaining this place against all the corrosive forces opposing, and despite the terrific energies required.
Even if our exchanges don’t immediately solve the planet-sized problems we see, they at least help me make a lot of small daily decisions to donate money here, give of my time and energy there, and do a little better.
On the other hand, Wretchard could just be an AI construct, carefully crafted to draw out a bunch of closet subversives…
Think I’ll go suck down some single malt.
Talking of death bed conversions-
John Von Neumann–the founder of computer science–
In 1955, von Neumann was diagnosed with what was either bone or pancreatic cancer.
A von Neumann biographer Norman Macrae has speculated: “It is plausible that in 1955 the then-fifty-one-year-old Johnny’s cancer sprang from his attendance at the 1946 Bikini nuclear tests.”
Von Neumann died a year and a half later.
While at Walter Reed Hospital in Washington, D.C., he invited a Roman Catholic priest, Father Anselm Strittmatter, O.S.B., to visit him for consultation.
This move shocked some of Von Neumann’s friends in view of his reputation as an agnostic.
Von Neumann, however, is reported to have said in explanation that Pascal had a point, referring to Pascal’s wager.
Father Strittmatter administered the last sacraments to him.
He died under military security lest he reveal military secrets while heavily medicated.
Von Neumann was buried at Princeton Cemetery in Princeton, Mercer County, New Jersey.
On his death bed, he entertained his brother with word-for-word recitations of the first few lines of each page of Goethe’s Faust.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann
Similar to the story of Manasseh mentioned above is what is written in Ezekiel 33: “As surely as I live, declares the sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.” (vs 11, NIV). And in the same place it is written: “If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so.” (vs 18-19)
It is a dangerous thing to judge a deathbed conversion, for one day we may find ourselves in the same position. I have seen in myself the great potential for evil, and I do not like to dwell on what I might be like if I had lived under different circumstances. And even though I might consider myself “good” relative to others, am I really so good as to deserve life?
When hearing of convictions from the likes of Chavez, Screwtape comes to mind:
http://youtu.be/7pTzHc4ZJPQ
My mother-in-law was the sort of left-wing educated bon vivant who wouldn’t give Christianity the time of day. Her daughter was an under achiever who became a hippie about ten years too late and was spinning out in the desert. Her son-in-law a drug addled veteran who needed some kind of crutch. 30 years later, the daughter and I are still in love, productive, happier than anyone has a right to be with four great kids and faith for the long haul.
My wife’s mom contacted a slow acting organic dementia that all her degrees and worldliness had no cure for. In a lucid moment before darkness set in , she cried out to God for mercy and I believe she found it. This Easter, think what it means that there’s an empty tomb and a risen Savior!
Here’s a song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB53Sx7oK94&feature=related
Thank you, W. As we worship our risen Savior, in humility remembering the depths of His suffering and shame in our stead, it might also be prudent to spend time in intercessory prayer on behalf of the untold thousands of native Christians currently undergoing persecution for their faith in Afghanistan, Albania/Kosovo, Algeria, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Malaysia, Nigeria, North Korea, Northern Cyprus, Pakistan, Philippines, People’s Republic of China, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Turkey, Yemen and various nation-states of the Indochina region. In those parts of the world Easter Sunday sometimes has an entirely different outcome.
The 1956 novel “Pincher Martin” by William Golding is entirely about an individual’s greed for life. After his destroyer is torpedoed in WWII, an officer called Pincher Martin crawls out of the ocean onto a small rock in the North Atlantic. The rest of the novel describes Martin’s unconquerable will to survive until he is rescued.
Apparently, when asked about his intentions in Pincher Martin in an interview shortly after the novel’s appearance, Golding gave this paraphrase of the novel’s theme:
“To achieve salvation, individuality–the persona–must be destroyed. But suppose the man is nothing but greed? His original spirit, God-given, the Scintillans Dei, is hopelessly obscured by his thirst for separate individual life. What can he do at death but refuse to be destroyed? Inhabit a world he invents from half-remembered scraps of physical life, a rock which is nothing but the memory of an aching tooth-ache? To a man greedy for life, tooth-ache is preferable to extinction, and that is the terrible secret of purgatory, it is all the world that the God-resisting soul cannot give up.”
For readers of the book, the puzzle is to figure out on what page of the book did Pincher Martin actually die.
The Good Son was really pissed off in the parable of the Prodigal Son. That parable is an interesting thing to contemplate. It does imply that whatever you know of morality and justice doesn’t amount to much. It also implies that past deeds don’t account for much. The entire concept of morality, and of crime and punishment, wither in the tale under the blaze of love and the potential for renunion. Of course there is a risk involved. Who, once bitten twice shy, would take a chance on the Prodigal Son, or on Humanity?
I can’t bring myself to lament the imminent passing of Hugo Chavez. He claimed to smell a lingering wisp of sulfur at the podium of the UN general assembly the day after an address by President Bush. I suspect that the smell is overpowering to Chavez, now.
#19 Prometheum_x: It is a dangerous thing to judge a deathbed conversion, for one day we may find ourselves in the same position
I don’t know if you were referring to what I said or not, but when I said, “Sheeran and Chavez at death’s door appear to want salvation without repentance,” and “That won’t happen,” the emphasis was meant to be on “appear to.” I believe you are absolutely right that it is not up to us to judge a deathbed conversion. I should have said, “IF Sheeran and Chavez… etc.” (But Chavez has been Catholic all along, hasn’t he? So the word ‘conversion’ wouldn’t apply. Some other word might better describe whatever it is he’s experiencing. Does he just want to go on living or is something else happening? I don’t know.)
Any phenomenon can be seen as good, bad, or indifferent, depending on the observer’s perspective, so all we can do is decide to do and be what we ourselves know is right and good. Our only task is not to betray ourselves given the lessons we’ve learned at the hands of first, our parents, and then the Universe as it has presented itself to us. We should listen to and acknowledge, very carefully to our feelings, all of them, “good” and “bad” and “insignificant”. They are a message from ourselves to ourselves about what we need to do to make things right. Drugs of any kind “artificially” alter those feelings, which may be required if there is a significant chance that those feelings could cause us to harm ourselves or others (broadly defined). Pain (both emotional and physical), unless it causes us to hurt ourselves or others, is a very powerful and honest friend. To the extent we use it to right ourselves and the world, we will be paid back and made whole…
trangbang68 @1. Have you repented and atoned for your “lot of dastardly deeds”?
Victor @2. As a half-Sicilian, I appreciate your post.
Blast From the Past @3. Excellent points, especially about Chavez. As for Islam, Mohammed in his world view, I believe, felt he was victimized and betrayed, and as such built into his religion the vengeance he believed was rightfully his to unleash. All adherents to his religion are taught to participate in and support his personal maniacal vendetta against the “infidels”.
#26 Karen: Your statement (and others’) prompted my comment, but it wasn’t really directed at anyone in particular. I was directing it at the tendency that most of us have (myself included) to look at such conversions with suspicion. Such suspicion is perfectly fine if we have to interact with those persons and have to make practical decisions on whether to trust them. Quite frankly, I have little need to question the the fruit of Chavez’s repentance, because I will never have to make a decision based on whether I think his conversion is genuine. I will also never know the man except as filtered through news accounts, which scarcely count as knowing at all (barring something truly atrocious like genocide).
As for the terminology, conversion is correct in a general, informal sense, as it describes the turning of the heart from one path to another. In that sense, conversion should be a lifelong habit of the true believer.
If Saul can be St. Paul…all else is possible with conversion. Happy and Blessed Easter to all.
Threads such as this are the reason I started commenting on BC. Initially thinking that I could throw out a point of doctrine from time-to-time that might be appreciated by someone who is seeking, knocking, and asking.
Certain key points are worth restating now. What mankind needs, at least the segment that are believers, is epistemological rehabilitation. Meaning we adjust our thoughts to align with the viewpoints of God as expressed in the Word. Some above, show that they understand this. Some do not.
Essentially, God is under no particular obligation to meet our expectations, but indeed the opposite. Expecting God to adhere to our sense of justice is foolishness.
‘But, but, I’m confused by all the stuff in the Bible, so many different interpretations’. Absolutely. There is info concerning unbelievers & believers. Doctrines concerning several dispensations: perfection, the fall, the Deluge, Age of Israel, Hypostatic Union, Church Age, Exit Resurrection, Tribulation, Second Advent, Millenial Reign.
The problem of sin, all sin, has been resolved. The lamb of God has taken away the sins of the world. Sins great and small are no longer a barrier to eternal life, except the sin of rejection of the lamb. That is true for all humanity, though we might judge some evil and some righteous.
The Romans disparaged early church age Christians as followers of ‘the Way’. You know – “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the father except by me”.
Oh yes, there is still a barrier because mankind is still spiritually dead as a result of “death passing to all men”. Belief or faith resolves that issue as well – permanently.
After salvation, which occurs upon faith in Christ, all barriers are permanently removed. Oh yes, there will be more sin, but sin, no matter how despicable, cannot undo what God has done. It’s called grace. “For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God”.
Then comes the discipline, for God “scourges alive with a whip, every son that he recieves” as a means to deal with continued sinning of believers. But he does not whip the neighbor’s child, unbelievers.
Unbelievers, well there is no hope without belief. They are not even aware of the spiritual battle that has been joined by believers who continue to exist in the veil of tears.
Wretchard,
Did “Our Beloved Nightmare” get pulled for reediting?
sfblue 28,
Thank you. Paranoids do have enemies, they work to create them. Mo actually betrayed and victimized and then destroyed the Jewish hosts who took him in as a refugee when he fled to the city of Yathrib, since renamed Medina. His violation of the laws of hospitality is the original sin in Islam.
I for one hope that our Savior’s grace is enough to redeem these people, since it means I too probably will be saved. God’s Grace is God’s Grace and human justice is something else entirely. When the Good Lord comes down to judge the living and the dead they will be the same but until then we must just do the best we can and let the Lord go about His business and trust in His wisdom, love and grace.
Happy Easter to all!
Random thoughts:
#1
God makes covenants. He does not strike bargains. Any human who approaches God & asks something out of the flesh (as opposed to out of the Spirit) is looking to strike a bargain.
It’s as offensive & pathetic a sight as, for example, a child-molesting murderer being brought before all the mothers & fathers of the children he violated and slaughtered, and saying to these parents, “If you forgive me, I’ll tell you where I buried them.”
“Unmitigated gall” is, I believe, the phrase that would be employed to describe such a circumstance. Where does this guy get off thinking he can ask such a thing? Can even contemplate asking such a thing?
There is an infinite gulf between the offender and the offended, so vast that the offender can never, ever, ever — not with all the works he could do nor an eternity to try — cover. He has nothing whatsoever to offer that could build one span across that gulf. He cannot strike a bargain. He has no standing in the court of the parents whose children he abused and murdered.
In the Christian view, every sinner has (im)morally participated in the slaughter of God’s only Son.
I will leave it to the reader to go look up the story of King Hezekiah (2 Kings 20) and think about whether Chavez’ request is more like Hezekiah’s prayer or whether it smacks of the child molester’s “bargain.”
#2
The thief on the cross is probably the most famous instance in Christendom of a deathbed conversion. And we know the thief’s prayer was efficacious because Jesus promised him it was.
So we know these things do happen.
The difficulty is that, since there is seldom little to no “fruit” to go by — these conversions taking place in the last days, hours, or minutes of a person’s life; and “fruit” being how one customarily discerns real conversions from false claims of such — it is exceptionally difficult to tell whether there has been a genuine conversion or not. In these cases, frequently, quite literally, only God knows.
I think we are wise to be skeptical of people. Just not too skeptical when it comes to “the power of God unto salvation” (Rom. 1:16).
#3
The world feels like it is “upside down” precisely because it is. Even many non-Christians sense this. The world calls evil good and good evil. The world claims the sun is blazing brightly at midday when you know for a fact that it’s moonless midnight and you can’t see your hand in front of your face. The world celebrates Person X as a great humanitarian/hero/role model, when that person was little more than a tragic wastrel of their gifted talents or, worse still, a thug.
It is a daily battle to not let your mind and spirit be sucked in by this perverseness. You actively have to resist the current of the world system, which is mighty. And it is exponentially harder when your family and friends are captives to the world, because on top of the mental & spiritual struggle of resistance, you have an emotional undertow to give in & join your loved ones.
Among all the other things He said in His preaching, Jesus did us a great favor, IMO, in confirming in the clearest terms possible, that this sense of upside-downness we have, of living amidst a tsunami of perversity, is a quite accurate reading of our circumstances. If you were a betting person, you would do well to place your money on just the opposite of the world tide, in most times & in most places. Because there’s a strong, strong likelihood that God’s values are just the opposite.
Whoever is powerful on Earth? Not powerful in God’s Kingdom.
That which is accounted as “truth” on Earth? Most likely, a pernicious lie in God’s eyes.
Those who are ridiculed, weak and despised on Earth? Frequently among God’s most cherished saints.
“God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the strong.” (1 Cor. 1:27)
Be of good courage.
When you stand up for life and live the laws of love, honor, and truth, and you find the world bearing down on you in condemnation and disgrace, know that it ain’t you who is crazy.
Imago Dei. He speaks to that which He has planted in you. The still, small voice. He stands at the door and knocks.
Death could not hold Him. Nor will it, you, if you are in Him.
Happy Easter to my fellow believers on BC.
And peace & blessings to all, believers and non-, in the BC forum.
Thanks esp. to Wretchard for being such a wise, generous, and eloquent host.
Don’t know about Sheeran (though thugs generally have a good idea about how the game is played); but it shor looks like Chavez is truly sincere in his remorse and his repentance and his contrition:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/08/us-venezuela-chavez-idUSBRE83701020120408
(Now it’s god’s move.)
File under: Con-trite
I sometimes think of myself as educated. I have four pieces of paper on my wall for others to read that testify to the fact that I have paid a lot of money for and have earned these degrees. However, sometimes when I read the rich prose of deep, reflective and challenging thoughts on theology and the meaning of life, it reminds me of “expert’s” descriptions of wines that I have drunk.
“Highly aromatic bouquet of pear, quince paste, white flowers, toasted grain, smoke and peach skin. Deeply concentrated orchard and pit fruit flavors are braced by dusty minerals and repeat the smoky note. Manages to be both rich and lively, and finishes with strong grip and lingering mineral and floral qualities.”
I’ve drunk a lot of wine and I have never tasted that. I guess my palate is not sophisticated enough to discern between all that is going on mouth before I reach for the next swallow. Likewise, my head sometimes swirls with dizzy speculation when reading various interpretations of man’s feelings and how they conflict with their perceived views and thoughts of a deity or lack thereof as well as how if effects us in our everyday life.
The startling simplicity of the message of the cross can appear at times to be overwhelmed by man’s ability to overanalyze even the simplest of scripture.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believed in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life”
This ain’t rocket science. Even over 2000 years after the fact. Indulge me as I re-write your last sentence. “Perhaps the greatest obstacle to having the faith to accept a loving God isn’t the belief that God could exist; but that a God exists who could love us.” Easter is testimony to the fact that God loves us so much that he is willing to send his own son Christ to die for our sins. Grace is free. This simple message is as revolutionary today as it was over 2000 years ago. The message of the New Testament Gospels is as revolutionary as when Moses gave the Ten Commandants to the people of Israel 1200 years before that. Why would God want to save such a sinful person such as us? Because He loves us.
“Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself”
If I was God I’d say, “Repent and be forgiven. Now you can suffer the pains of your karma with a peaceful heart. Or not. Up to you.”
First, Chavez needs to set his people free. Slavery is not cool, ever. And that’s his real game, like all communists.
You can’t fool God.
The central tenant of Christianity is we are all sinners and anyone can be forgiven anything by God (and we are directed to do the same)…but for complete reconciliation, it does require one to acknowledge and be repentant of the sin. Still it a great gift for one harmed by another to forgive first (regardless of the position of the wrongdoer). It is a release.
I have come to think of humans who do great evil as not sinful, but feral. They have not been domesticated into God’s house. Were I God, I would not be angry at such feral creatures, for they are merely feral, unknowing entirely of domestication.
Them being feral, however, I would not allow them into my house… unless they were to suddenly become domesticated. Then, I would greatly rejoice at my new pet. I would not worry about the terrible things this pet did when it was feral, because, well, it was feral. That creature is not the one before me now. There is nothing to forgive, for it is made completely new.
God reaches out to feral creatures through various agents. It is a dangerous thing to do, and often fruitless. A feral creature will either attack or run away. Sometimes one can be lured by kindness. When a feral one is injured and weak, unable to either run or attack, there lies your greatest chance of reaching it.
A man, sick unto death, suddenly is consumed by thoughts of what lies beyond. It causes him to gain focus. Many do not. Hitler chose suicide. He fully embraced his wickedness, in full knowledge of what it meant. He knowingly rejected God.
Of which sort is Chavez? Is he contemplating the awfulness of his demise and what lies in the hereafter? Or is he a Hitler, willingly wicked to the end, still working some angle? I am guessing he is still trying to hold onto his power unto the end. I suspect the most cynical of ploys, here. He is playing on people’s religious sympathies, playing them for suckers, yet again. It is the most vile thing he could do, for such is a sin directly against God.
God commanded, “Thou shalt not take My Name in vain…” It means to not use His Name for vain, fruitless, empty purposes. It means do not take a false oath. Do not do evil in His Name. The rest of it is, “for this I shall never forgive you!”
If God sees this man as truly contrite, then all is well. If this guy is just working an angle, I am fully confident that his will be the most awful place in Hell, and again, all is well. “Judgment is mine.”, sayeth the Lord. I am totally down with that, because I would hate to have that gig, myself. I’ll leave it to Him.
Happy Easter!
It is God’s will to have mercy on whom he will. His reasoning is higher and beyond ours; yet, if hardening a man’s heart so that God will be glorified, so be it; did he not declare that he raised Pharaoh of Moses’ time in order that He would be glorified; and didn’t St Paul confess he was the worst of sinners; yet, in him, God glorified himself in showing His mercy.
“I must have justice, or I will destroy myself. And not justice in some remote infinite time and space, but here on earth, and that I could see myself… But then there are the children, and what am I to do about them? … It’s beyond all comprehension why they should suffer…” Fyodor Dostoevsky
The reason for the pathology of human evil and suffering is the mystery of human freedom. As Thomas Jefferson rightly said: “Almighty God hath created the mind free.” We are free to choose good or evil, and when some choose evil, human pain and suffering must follow. The only alternative to the pathology of evil and human suffering is the pathologic loss of human freedom, so God made us in His image with free minds instead of making us un-free and controlling us as robots. One can blame God for evil in this world, but that is unjust, because in every case evil springs from the minds and hearts of men who are free to choose evil, which is rebellion against God’s nature. It appears to me self-evident that by creating us with free minds God limited his own omnipotence – for a time – until the last man dies.
it seems that Chavez and Roskolnikov ask for (more) life when they already have it. Life is then therefore a gift and an opportunity. Chavez and his like, spend a lot of time denying others earthly opportunities, and then seek to entreat the almighty and appropriate unto themselves some sort of “special opportunity” (or “special opportunities”, in plurality) It seems to me that both ask for it (more life) and then seek to balance it with what appears to me to be a false humility. This false humility is used to cloak the demiurge and Chavez provides and abject lesson in a real life application as to why.
They’ve imbibed a little too much of their own PR and seek to abnegate god’s kingdom in favor of their own.
Tower of Babel.
That brings us to what is in one’s heart. And therefore, I do not wish to weigh in on as to what would (or will be) the criteria used to judge Frank Sheeran, for it is enough to say that it is a matter of what is in one’s heart. I am also grateful that the business of judgement ( which we all will face) will not be conducted,
“transformed“,“nuanced“nor“arbitrated“by anyone who walked this earth but one.The question then goes to what omissions or deceptions might I engage in when bringing my life as it is to my creator, the father, and so the issue is the same, it is still a matter of what is in one’s heart at such moments.
sfblue, sure have repented and have given my life to being as productive and serving as I can be. Not batting 1.000 (but who is), but thank God I’m not the man I used to be. Here’s a beautiful song about redemption:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyoVJfADlwo
Bogie Wheel @ 34
Your comment spurred in me the insight that all human justice is a form of a bargain. Imperfect men, imperfectly investigating a crime, tried by an imperfect judge, with advocates imperfectly arguing opposite positions to try and illuminate truth for…..wait for it…. and imperfect jury of peers of the accused. How could it be otherwise? What could go wrong?
It is a good thing that God can judge us with perfect justice, but it is a far, far better thing tht he judges us with infinite mercy.
KWB @ 36: And we are ALL on the road to Damascus.
Yes, a shame that the world will be deprived of his insight and leadership.
And what about poor Harry Bellafonte and Sean Penn?
On exactly this theme, i wrote a story where Judas does not kill himself, and goes to the empty tomb. Judas committed the worst sin possible. He murdered God. No worse sin is possible. As he travels to the tomb, he realizes he needs two impossible miracles. First, that Jesus will rise from the dead. Second, and even more impossible, that he can be forgiven for the worst of all sins.
Every time I reread that part of the story, it sends chills down my back. I see the meeting of man and God, and I hear Jesus voice. “Judas I’ve been waiting for you.”
God waits for all of us. Like the father of the prodigal, He waits. With infinite patience,God waits for us to return. The strange mystery: Why does He want us to come to Him?
He offers a gift. A gift beyond any understanding. God wants us. God loves us. For those of us who identify with the faithful brother, God asks us: “Will you come to My party? Celebrate, for he who was dead is alive.”
As a full bore Calvinist, man’s utter depravity does not surprise me. I live fully aware of being a sinner at the hands of an angry God. Yet also fully aware of this God who waits. I rejoice. I go to the tomb with Judas to accept His gift of forgiveness.
Thank you W. for your Easter gift.
Am I hearin’
Billy Sheeran
Put Hoffa in the sod
Then on his knees
Said grant me please
An audience with God
And to His face
I’ll plead my case
For heaven I desire
And if God needs
A heart that bleeds
God know I am for hire
Happy Easter, All!
I must confess, for some reason this Easter seems to be all about ME. Not joking!
Believe me, I’m not one to belabor my regrets. But, today I can’t stop flipping MY missteps, MY regrets, MY flaws, and MY failures over and over in MY mind. And I’m looking for the lessons that will tell ME how to do better next time.
(In a way, it’s a kind of a rebirth, this taking another run at life’s obstacles, especially the ones that’ve already tripped you up before. You make another opportunity to succeed for yourself.)
Am I being selfish?
The truly repentant soul is never seen blubbering on tv for GOD to save his sorry butt. The truly repentant is seen undoing his evil deeds as best he can and to set about being a virtuous person.
That is your answer.
God does not necessarily have the same view of life as materialists (atheists), to whom nothing is more important. For them after death, there is nothing.
From many points of view, death is a desirable transition. In the theory of evolution, death allows progress in the genetic stream. In many religions, death represents the release of the soul from its human suffering.
God is all-loving all-forgiving.
But forgiveness is useful only amongst the living.
Perfect contrition at the end? It must be the rarest of spiritual experiences. Who can know or even hope that one’s sorrow is complete? That every level of being is unified in remorse at the opportune time. Not bloody likely unless its the weight of the sorrow that actually kills you
Amen. Happy Easter, Richard.
I think the true meaning of repentance is often overlooked when this issue comes up. Several have mentioned it, kudos to JFSanders, Bogiewheel, and others who have, but I think it really should be explained a little more fully.
“Repentance” is NOT just saying “I’m sorry” and making a show of feeling bad. That kind of thing is nonsense, and not only does it not fool God, it doesn’t fool anybody else either. True Repentance comes when a sinner makes a deep, inward spiritual change which causes him not only to feel shame at his previous actions, but to change his life in such a way so that he will strive to never commit those previous sins again (of course, being human, we are all quite good at finding new ones) and most importantly, that he inwardly dedicates himself to doing everything he can to make recompense for the previous evils he has done.
A man’s sins are paid for by Christ’s sacrifice, but the sign of true repentance is always voluntary and sincere acts of contrition commensurate with the sin,combined with a need to “make whole” any victims of previous wickedness. Of course this backs into the issue of faith and works, but as James said in his epistle, “You show me your faith without works. I will show you my faith BY my works!” and later, “Faith without works is dead.”
and James on belief in God without any change in behavior: “You say God is One, you do well. So do all the devils in hell, and tremble at his name!”
Now, when this happens in the proverbial deathbed conversion, the outcome is not one that can be made or even known by us – but then, it doesn’t need to be. It’s out of our jurisdiction, so to speak. But I think we can have confidence in this admonition, “Do not be fooled, God is not mocked.”
This world is a funny place, more times than not people create their own punishments without even realizing what they’re doing. Perhaps Chavez is sincere, I’m in no position to be his spiritual judge. But it strikes me as at least possible that he has already created his own punishment by putting his life at the mercy of a band of incompetent cuban “doctors” who play around with radioactive isotopes as if they were toys at a kids science fair. (note that Chavez is reportedly suffering from radiation burns)
wait a second, upon reflection that comparison is quite unfair – to the science fair kids! They probably grew up to be real doctors, not quacks who killed their own patients with their incompetence.
Kind of amazing, when you think of it – the ideological arrogance of Chavez led him to walk unforced, head held high, into the most bungling, incompetent quack-medical hellhole in the world. Cuba. Justice is a funny thing, ain’t it?
“Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small;
Though with patience he stands waiting, with exactness grinds he all.”
This Easter, the Pope tried to illustrate the irony of electric lights masking the heavens above. As usual he stopped short of explaining things plainly, and was left halfway to something honest. Apparently he thinks that church-goers are all confused seniors and dramatizing ninnies who can’t accept new ideas about mankind and our place in the cosmos. I don’t know how else to explain his restrained sermons.
Moreover it’s not enough for communism to end, or for “Chavez” to repent somehow. The tricks must stop. This Pope is a willing player if he won’t denounce them, a charge that goes back to his (lack of) choices as a youth.
The most interesting “death bed” conversion has to be the thief on the cross. He can do nothing. All he can do is speak and die. He has no chance to take any action. Yet he is promised by Jesus. “Today you will be with Me in paradise.” The one person in all history we can be certain goes to heaven. Yet he did nothing but speak and die.
If Chavez is the prodigal home from the pigs, I welcome him. Trust will take longer. Trust but verify.
The amazing thing about reading the New Testament is to be astonished by God’s generosity. The parable of the workers in the field, where those who worked for one hour are paid the same as those who worked all day, seems applicable to this situation. We keep wanting God to be fair. Stupid, you need his mercy too, you don’t want God to be fair.
The thing to remember that with real acceptance of forgiveness. There is sorrow at what you have done, that cannot be undone. Often we have the hardest time forgiving ourselves. Yet this too is the blessing of God’s forgiveness that tho our sins be as scarlet, they are washed away by the blood of the lamb. This most amazing Easter gift from God (actually good Friday gift). The gift of Easter is just death being defeated.
Being born again is only the start of the process. It is only accepting God’s gift to be born again. Then comes the hard part, the sanctification process, which refines us. I look at Elijah’s journey in 1st Kings, where the brook he relied on for water dries up, and God sends him to a widow. This journey was to develop Elijah’s character. He had to step out in faith, for his hundred mile journey through the heart of Ahab’s army, to where the widow awaited with nothing. This is an example of how God develops intimacy and trust with His disciples. He still works this way with us.
You tell God you want to be patient. He offers to give you people to be patient with.
God has a very strange sense of humor. He was the first stand up comedian. Bill Cosby had a very funny example in his Noah comedy act. YOu want me to do WHAT?
When I see Chavez nailed to a cross and hear him speak of repentance, maybe after Jesus himself comes down and takes Chavez’ sorry butt off the cross, just maybe I will find it in myself to repent of my sin against him. But for today I pray that he meets the dear Lord above and soon. So Mote It Be.
The Thief on the Cross is a very hopeful example to us of how a desperate case can still come to good. But it’s dishonest to allow people to believe that they can do whatever they want in life, then take advantage of a last-minute escape hatch and “everything will be alright”. We needn’t go as far afield as Chavez to see this sort of hard determination to have everything our own way right up until the last minute. What about Edward Kennedy? What was his life but a determination to hang onto every benefit the world could offer, then he sent a letter to the Pope at the last minute, once it was too late to do any repentance that would involve giving up anything important?
If you want to read the internal argument going on in this kind of person, read King Claudius’s speech in Hamlet, as he tries to pray:
What if this cursed hand
Were thicker than itself with brother’s blood,
Is there not rain enough in the sweet heavens
To wash it white as snow? Whereto serves mercy
But to confront the visage of offence?
And what’s in prayer but this two-fold force,
To be forestalled ere we come to fall,
Or pardon’d being down? Then I’ll look up;
My fault is past. But, O, what form of prayer
Can serve my turn? ‘Forgive me my foul murder’?
That cannot be; since I am still possess’d
Of those effects for which I did the murder,
My crown, mine own ambition and my queen.
May one be pardon’d and retain the offence?
In the corrupted currents of this world
Offence’s gilded hand may shove by justice,
And oft ’tis seen the wicked prize itself
Buys out the law: but ’tis not so above;
There is no shuffling, there the action lies
In his true nature; and we ourselves compell’d,
Even to the teeth and forehead of our faults,
To give in evidence. What then? what rests?
Try what repentance can: what can it not?
Yet what can it when one can not repent?
O wretched state! O bosom black as death!
O limed soul, that, struggling to be free,
Art more engaged! Help, angels! Make assay!
Bow, stubborn knees; and, heart with strings of steel,
Be soft as sinews of the newborn babe!
All may be well.
Retires and kneels
And what is the outcome of all this anguishing?
[Rising] My words fly up, my thoughts remain below:
Words without thoughts never to heaven go.
Perhaps relevant to this discussion, a perhaps paraphrased quotation from I know not where:
“Almost everyone who says that he demands justice is lying. Almost everyone who says that actually asks for either mercy or revenge.” And I would say, although I am not particularly religious, that neither attitude is acceptable to God.
Unless, he is a God that loves his own virtue perfectly, allows that virtue to be imputed to us by an act of faith in the efficacious sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, and he now loves that perfect virtue imputed to us, even if it does not always operate experientially.
Thanks for the writing, I enjoyed it.
Thank you for this column.
The worst mistake we can make as believers is to offer a confused or incorrect gospel message. Sometimes this results from our inadequate knowledge of the word. We just have not learned enough to fully understand the grace of God. We remain infants or adolescents spiritually. We have not gained enough epignosis doctrine.
Salvation is about what God has provided. There is no place for actions of mankind that would warrant any merit whatsover. No works, no acts, no penitence, no feelings, no emotions are necessary for God to perform salvation.
It is just what is said to be in the scripture, over and over. For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.
Mankind keeps wanting to add more to the equation. To satisfy some sense of human justice. ‘Well, we must feel sorry, we must have true regret of some other human emotion’. There is no place for that!
There is only room for what God has provided, and nothing more. Non meritorious faith. We do nothing. God does everything.
‘But, but, what about repentence. That’s mentioned in the bible’. That changing your mind, nothing more. Changing from indifference or rejection of Christ to belief or faith in Christ. Get the message right. It’s all about God, and nothing about us. Not how we feel, not anything we have done, or will do. Else it would not be solely grace of God.
God does not need your help. He does not need you to feel sorry or any other way. Just faith. How much faith? The size of a grain of mustard seed – according to one analogy.
The gospel message is the most important thing we can offer to a dying world. Don’t confuse it with your own sentiments about how you think people should feel.
The man who shot Jimmy Hoffa, he shot Jimmy Hoffa, he was …
Oops. Wrong reality, or maybe only half wrong.
Well, no, Mr. Fernandez. The thing that knocks down the whole Christian myth for me is the existence of Hell — a place of no redemption or forgiveness. Any god who constructs a place like that for his own creatures is one I refuse to believe in.
Dear arhooley,
What is your state when you turn away from the possibility of a loving creator?
Isn’t that the same thing as hell?
Many of us struggle with the problem presented by the suffering and death of innocents, and the idea of “everlasting” abandonment. I find myself wrestling with with the concept of damnation a lot. Seems to me there is a big fat contradiction between a loving, forgiving God on one hand, and a God who can say to his (“her?”) own creations, drop dead, suffer forever, you got your chance, made your choice, blah blah blah.
Just a little further thinking and it strikes ME that it’s stern and stiff-necked PEOPLE who insist that there is some LIMIT to the mercy of God.
The interpretation and comprehension of God’s love by humans are necessarily flawed. As many have said here, we have no power to “second-guess” or bully God in the disposition of any man’s soul. The power we do have is how we decide moment by moment how we live and how we treat those around us.
So many questions the answers to which will not be known in this life.
Much to take on faith.
It is in my limited understanding that though the Almighty created space and time, he didn’t construct hell.
A host of the fallen -with the gift of free will- choose to occupy a space in time wherein there is an absence of God.
It’s not how long the distance we travel to get to the place where God wants us to be. The thief on the cross traveled the distance necessary when he repented his “guilt” to Christ. The other thief remained adamantly clutching his sin and in turn, chose his fate. He chose separation from God; he chose Hell.
Salvation is not earned through works; works are the believer’s expression of gratitude for the miracle of salvation. So that no one can boast.
Another good song from Casting Crowns:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0KwqFvucdw&feature=player_embedded
Contrary to today’s political correctness – a Christian doesn’t want to be “somewhere in the middle.”
sg @ 68: Salvation is not earned through works; works are the believer’s expression of gratitude for the miracle of salvation. So that no one can boast.
I hear that, and have heard similar, and I like the last part, but I’m still uncomfortable with the first part. The innocent yet virtuous are always a theological problem, it seems.
C.S. Lewis has Ransom call it “the courtesy of deep heaven, that if you mean well, you meant better than you knew.” I’ll go with that. But he also says, “In the end, that is not enough.”
If the God of the Bible and the hell described therein exist, then they exist whether one chooses to believe in them or not. “The concept offends me” is kind of a non-starter in terms of giving a rational reason for the existence or non-existence of these things.
One would do better to point out what, exactly, it is about the Christian doctrine on hell that is inconsistent with what is also taught about the nature of God and the nature of man.
If God is utterly holy, why would He permit any unrighteousness in His presence?
(If God is not utterly holy, then what absolute, eternal law or trait *does* oversee all of existence? And if your answer is “none” … (1) how is this concept somehow better or more palatable than the concept of hell, and (2) why have you not jumped off a bridge yet?)
What happens to those who are unrighteous, if they are not permitted to be in the presence of God? Is it annihilation (see Jehovah’s Witnesses) … or is there an eternal state of existence other-than/apart-from God?
Is there any act a person could commit that would make them deserve to spend eternity apart from God? (If your answer is no, then stay the h3ll away from my kids.)
How good is “good enough” to get to spend eternity in God’s presence? How bad is “bad enough” to spend eternity apart from Him? Where is the line drawn, and who is fit to draw it? (Now return to question #1.)
Christian doctrine teaches hell AND the Cross. There is no one without the other. The character of God — both perfectly just, and perfectly loving — renders both necessary. So …… if the Gospel (of the Cross) turns out to be true, what is so objectionable about hell, again? If the Cross is true, what quality of mercy or love is wanting in the character of God? If the Cross is true, who is ineligible to be saved?
Head-scratcher. What *I* don’t get is someone’s rejection of the Christian God based on the offensiveness of the concept of hell. Really? Hell SHOULD be offensive. And miserable to the Nth. Otherwise, IMO, there is no real answer for evil save some *truly* offensive pablum that cheapens the meanings of both suffering and justice.
OTOH without the Cross, I, too, would be wondering about God’s love and holiness. It’s just that, with the Cross, I find I am compelled to shut my big yap in awe and humility.
My righteousness is as filthy rags.
***************
P.S. There really is no other blog like Belmont Club! Extraordinary place, extraordinary company, extraordinary discussions. Thanks, W!
Mr. Fernandez,
I have seen your column only now.
It’s a deep reflection, indeed.
But I suggest that you carry it on a little deeper.
You seem to take into consideration the meaning of “forgiving” only from the point of view of God.
“Forgiving” has a totally strange meaning when examined from our, human, point of view. From our point of view, the experience of repentance is abyssal.
It is abyssal, unfathomably hard in THIS life.
In the True Life, how unfathomable can it be ? Infinitely more ?
And that is why, an all-forgiving God has been connected from the most ancient times with the idea of a punishment that could be “eternal”.
Understanding the depth of our sins is a tragic experience in this life.
How much deeper is the same understanding on a “lost soul” in the True Life ?
We are loved.
But if are false to God, that Love is in Itself immensely hard.
Or at least this can be thought from a human point of view.
Thank you for the opportunity of this discussion.
Bogie @ 70 – Well done. Great job. You highlight some important distinctions between human and divine viewpoints.
God, the creator, enables us to view, from our contaminated frame of reference, just a hazy spector of the entirety of creation.
Then we, who are just a vapor, soon to disappear into eternity, stand on our shakey legs and declare that we disagree with the way God has ordained the universe. That God must necessarily operate within some context consistent with our feeble thoughts and imagination. We pass judgement on the God of the universe regarding heaven and hell.
What colossal arrogance. Just a chip off the old block of the author of arrogant thought who would ‘make himself like the most high God’.
One nit to pick, though. Doctrine of Total Depravity. No one is deserving of the grace of God. Whatever particular sinner you think should stay away from your kids, well, God makes no such distinction. His view – you were in the same boat until you were sanctified by his grace.
The road to forgiveness is through the legitimate emotions you have to experience to properly emotionally/psychologically process the events that led you to feel resentful. The way I’ve done it is to get a pad and pen and write down all of the words that come to mind when you think of that person and look them up on dictionary.com which will really help to pinpoint the actual feelings. Do this for as long as you need to (but keep that pad to yourself and don’t send it). If you saw the lists of words and ravings I wrote about my mom, you would think I was insane. Finally, I’ve been able to free myself from victim status and now I can have a loving relationship with her again. I took me until the age of 39 and after five years of estragnegement and forests worth of trees and oceans of ink to do that, but after all, it has been absolutely worth it and I’m the strong person I am today as a result of it all (especially the original treatment). You just have to have faith that you will make it, eventually, to the other side.
I could forgive Satan if it means the Souls in his possession were brought before G_d for redemption.
The “parable” of the prodigal son is often far too abbreviated by those who want to spin it: the Elder brother points to his faithfulness, and there is no “You are as disobedient and evil as your younger brother” BS coming from his father, as I hear from some commentators in this thread. The Father admits to the faithfulness of His elder son. Keep in mind that, in the story, the Elder brother is NEGLECTED and IGNORED, despite that faithfulness, when his younger brother returns and the servants celebrated. The father reminds the elder brother that “All that I have is yours”, meaning that while the younger brother is still welcome in the family, he blew through is wad and he’s NOW got nothing to work with.
What would you want? That the faithful and the obedient and the persevering be cursed, kicked in the face, and spat upon? Would you have preferred that the elder brother be cast out and the younger brother given the entire inheritance, contrary to the parable? Wow, how SOCIALIST.
One nit to pick, though. Doctrine of Total Depravity. No one is deserving of the grace of God. Whatever particular sinner you think should stay away from your kids, well, God makes no such distinction. His view – you were in the same boat until you were sanctified by his grace.
No disagreement here. It was more a matter of post length and the appropriateness of going into theological detail at that point, which I deemed was not going to advance my main point on that occasion.
In terms of absolute moral purity and sinlessness, no, children are not “innocent.” Certainly no mere mortal is, in comparison with God. But not even the doctrines of total depravity and original sin negate the recognition that, while there is a moral gulf between mortals (even small children, even babies) and God, there is nevertheless a human-planed moral distinction between small children and, say, thieves, junkies, predators and killers.
We recognize this in our instincts to protect little children; in the sense of wonder they evoke in us; in our colloquial descriptions of them as being “innocent” in a way that we *know* we older human beings are not. Again, one doesn’t have to go through “age of consent” doctrine to understand this. Most everyone gets it on a gut level. And Jesus Himself confirms that there is something special about little children (Matt. 18:3, 18:6), a preciousness in God’s eyes whose recognition we echo in our own, human, fondness for them.
My basic point was: There are only two theoretical positions on hell-as-destination, if one posits the existence of it: Either (1) no, there is nothing so bad that anyone could do that would make them deserve going there, or (2) yes, it is possible to behave in a manner so depraved that one deserves hell.
A person who would assert Answer #1, should, IMO, set off alarms in the heads of anyone who feels some obligation to protect small children, pets, and other vulnerable life forms. !!!
4/4 … Thanks, y’all, it has been fun!
Dougman @ 74 – We have to thank Satan for testing us, keeping us sharp. Someone said that it is only because there is a glass floor through which we can see hell that we may know that we are not there. So, from that perspective, to the extent that we can see evil and reject it and fight it, we know we are good. We just have to be very careful as to what we allow ourselves to consider evil, because ultimately, God is the only one that can truly know and judge that.
“Perhaps the greatest obstacle to faith is not in accepting the possibility of a loving God so much as in believing that anything could exist which could love us.”
For me it’s not that I feel or believe I am unworthy of love (which is “God”, I thought); But rather how can I accept that “His” love is so great that we should all sacrifice for “Him” while I witness “Him” stand by to divvy out that love later, hopefully, as so many who are so very innocent live such tortured lives right now? And how can I accept the judgment of another I am not allowed to judge?
All the glory but none of the responsibility? I don’t think so.
70. bogie wheel
One of the great blessings of Jesus is that Jesus enables an unholy mortal human to enter into the presence of the holy eternal living God–without being fried.
Previously, only the high priest of Israel could do that and then only once a year.
My post at #26 re the Chavez issue bugs me.
The very first words Jesus said when he began his public ministry was, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Matthew 4:17. Now why would he say that? Why would that be his first sermon?
Of what use is the free gift of salvation for those who see no need for repentance? If you really believe that repentance is unnecessary, then you’re fine as you are and have no need for someone to bear the punishment due you. But once the need for repentance is truly recognized, the free gift of grace is immediately available, even at the eleventh hour.
Now my own opinion of Chavez is that he is the same Chavez he always was. I think he sees himself as a great champion of the downtrodden and liberator of the oppressed. I think he believes that God smiles down on him in approval of all the things he’s done as leader of Venezuela. I think that when he stands before the Lord on the day of judgment, he more likely will expect to hear, “Well done, good and faithful servant,” instead of, “Depart from me, I never knew ye.” That’s what I think – I don’t know for certain, but that’s my honest opinion.
But my expressed opinion is not the same thing as presuming to know the eternal destination of his soul. For all I know, Jesus may say to him something like, “You did the best you knew how, and you did not reject me.” On the other hand, Jesus may say, “Your idolization of the Have-nots and your hatred of the Haves have led you astray although you knew of my commands.” Which of these it might be, I don’t know. Or it might be something else altogether that I haven’t thought of. I don’t know. I can’t judge that. It seemed obvious to me that, by expressing my opinion, I was not condemning Chavez, or anybody else, to eternal damnation but apparently that was not so obvious to everyone.
And this brings me to the whole judge-not issue, which seems to be a favorite caution of liberals to club conservatives with. (Not that I’m calling anyone here a liberal; I’m not, it’s just that it’s something you expect more from liberals.) Everybody is supposed to know how judgmental conservatives are, and religious conservatives are supposed to be the worst of the judgmental lot, so much so that, in reaction and self-defense many churches have abandoned entire parts of their own biblical scripture in order to line up with our modern culture’s dictates of sloppy discernment and political correctness. I hope we don’t ever come to that here at BC.
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#78 A Woman: For me it’s not that I feel or believe I am unworthy of love (which is “God”, I thought); But rather how can I accept that “His” love is so great that we should all sacrifice for “Him” while I witness “Him” stand by to divvy out that love later, hopefully, as so many who are so very innocent live such tortured lives right now? And how can I accept the judgment of another I am not allowed to judge?
I wonder, what exactly is it that you expect you’d have to sacrifice for Him? Having fun? A few bad habits? What exactly?
And how can I accept the judgment of another I am not allowed to judge?
You ARE allowed to judge him. You’re doing it right now and nobody’s stopping you.
epignosis, by what authority do you teach? How can someone who feels no sorrow for his sins embrace the Cross at all? If he admits his former actions were wrong, he will by necessity feel sorrow, else what is he but a self-righteous hypocrite? When has repentance ever been taught apart from Godly sorrow (also called contrition)?
Consider the other criminal crucified next to Jesus, the one who was damned. Sure, he wanted Jesus to save him, but there was no contrition, no repentance on his part. He refused to turn from his sins, and only feared the earthly consequences of his crimes, rather than fearing God. “Save yourself and us,” is the cry of a man who desperately doesn’t want to die, but who refuses to turn away from his sins. Can any man refuse to admit his sins were wrong without spitting on the Savior while He hangs on the Cross? The only difference between that criminal and the crowds who mocked Jesus from the foot of the Cross is that he died that day, while the others still had time to repent.
To the rest of you, deathbed confessions and conversions are great things, delivering the souls of the lost into the grace of God before departing the Earth, but do not presume that you will have the grace to have one. There is only one unpardonable sin: blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but the man living out his life enjoying his sins expecting to repent at the last minute is in grave danger of committing it. Repent now, for you do not know if death shall come upon you suddenly, whether from an accident, being murdered, or perhaps a latent disease you didn’t know you had. How many people drop dead from cardiac arrest each year with no warning? And even if you should have warning that your death is near, will you be able to repent if you spend your entire life willfully ignoring God, expecting to repent at the last minute? Are you unaware that God hardened Pharoah’s heart as punishment for his obstinacy? Let him who has ears hear, and turn from his sins with due urgency, not waiting for his deathbed.
One poster asked what perfect contrition was. Perfect contrition is sorrow for one’s sins born of loving God above all things, and therefore hating one’s sins because they offend God.
@78. Because you are judging according to appearances. You do not know their hearts, nor do you know what God has in store for them. What would you say of the martyrs? Is their going forth from us destruction, or does not God have great things planned for them for all eternity? Because they loved not their own lives even unto death rather than deny the Gospel, God will raise them up to great glory in the world to come, and their testimony has won many souls to Christ.
“Judge not lest ye be judged”
Ah yes, the verse most often taken out of context. How we can “Beware of false prophets who come in sheeps clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.” if we are forbidden to judge their fruits despite Jesus saying “You will know them by their fruits”?
Read the context: the measure you pronounce is the measure that will be used to measure to you. Its not a case of “your rule for you and my rule for me”. Don’t pretend to be able to help someone with a speck in their eye when you have a log in yours. Jesus labelled that as being hypocritical.
What Jesus was forbidding was a double standard, applying an unfavorable rule against another, but using a more favorable rule when looking at yourself.
@ Karen Yvonne
“I wonder, what exactly is it that you expect you’d have to sacrifice for Him? Having fun? A few bad habits? What exactly?”
My actual free will! If I am acting to secure “His” love and a place in Heaven, I am not acting as I wish but rather as I “should”. What you may call ‘a few bad habits’ may be essential to my enjoyment of life. And I do have fun but according to many a good portion of that fun — my friends in the LGBT community & the joy they bring me as well as my belief they are doing no wrong in being who they are, the love for my oldest son & his partner who happen to be a part of it, the drinks I enjoy from time to time, and so on — would have to end.
What exactly would I have to give up? That would take far too long to explain, and that’s only if you truly care to know..
“You ARE allowed to judge him. You’re doing it right now and nobody’s stopping you.”
First, no one “allows” me to think or feel as I do. I do it because I can & it’s my ultimate right as a human being. But that would have to end for me to be accepted into “the fold”. I would have to stop questioning “His” authority, I would have to blindly accept.
I have no faith “He” is real.
@81. myth buster
“Because you are judging according to appearances. You do not know their hearts, nor do you know what God has in store for them. What would you say of the martyrs? Is their going forth from us destruction, or does not God have great things planned for them for all eternity? Because they loved not their own lives even unto death rather than deny the Gospel, God will raise them up to great glory in the world to come, and their testimony has won many souls to Christ.”
I do not believe in “God” so I do not believe he has anything in store for anyone. WRT martyrs, I only see that behaviort an ultimate sacrifice & a form of manipulation. Nothing more.
Who told you that you have to stop drinking in order to become a Christian? As long as you’re not an alcoholic, there is nothing wrong with having a little alcohol from time to time, or even a drink or two a day. Who told you to stop loving your homosexual son? Do you think I stopped loving my brother based on his behavior? We look at homosexuals the same way we look at drug dealers- people who are doing something that will kill them and who need help.
#83 A Woman, I agree with what myth buster said. Regarding alcohol, my goodness, haven’t you heard that Jesus’ first miracle was turning water into wine at the wedding? (John, chapter 2) And as for stopping loving someone because they’re homosexual? No, I’m afraid you’ve got that all wrong, too. The Bible does clearly identify homosexuality as a sin but so what – in a world shot through with sin, it’s just one more added to the heap along with all the rest. Your son may be fine with his lifestyle right now, but if the day ever comes when he’s not, this might help him (and their families too):“a loving approach to gays”
“Now, when I talked to God I knew he’d understand
He said, Stick by me and I’ll be your guiding hand
But don’t ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to”
@ 85. myth buster & 86. Karen Yvonne
My responses yesterday were scattered due to time restraints. I apologize for any confusion. So here is my last response…
The way I was taught to interpret the Bible left me seeing I cannot live as required by the Bible. Alcohol is but *one* thing I was taught would have to be avoided. I enjoy several of my “bad habits” and traditions (such as a Christmas tree & the Easter Bunny). Some imagined entity’s judgment of me is not reason enough for me to give them up.
WRT my son I said he is a member of the LGBT community, not homosexual. They are not the same thing. But to your point regarding love, for me “love” is not just a feeling. It’s involvement & acceptance, respect & tolerance, embracing people for who they really are, encouragement & joy, and so on & so on. Those things are not possible if I reject an essential part of who he is.
And in no way will I ever see him as a drug addict. His relationships were not going to “kill” him nor did he “need help” to quit them. That’s just ridiculous IMO. The idea that anyone can pray-away any part of themselves is insulting to my intelligence & nothing less than cruel.
There is nothing you will ever say that will change my views on these few things and many more I am sure. Likewise, I am fully aware of the fact that I cannot change you POV. My original response to the article still stands:
“For me it’s not that I feel or believe I am unworthy of love (which is “God”, I thought); But rather how can I accept that “His” love is so great that we should all sacrifice for “Him” while I witness “Him” stand by to divvy out that love later, hopefully, as so many who are so very innocent live such tortured lives right now? And how can I accept the judgment of another I am not allowed to judge?
All the glory but none of the responsibility? I don’t think so.”
So, best wishes to you both & good by.
I have finally understood why atheists assume, that human beings are basically good, and evil can be done away with social reform and better education.
If there is no God, there is no forgiveness.
Suffering is the evil that nature and other people do unto you. Evil is the knowledge of one’s own hopeless condition. To peek into one’s heart, see evil and find no way to eradicate it is simply too much to bear.
There are three possibilities for the atheist.
1. Continue to live incoherently and make yourself believe that you’re basically a good guy.
2. See no way out of it and commit suicide.
3. Deny the existence of good and evil.
88. My advice to you is that you find a church that actually teaches sound doctrine, not one run by Pharisees who add to the Law and subtract from the Gospel. This problem is nothing new- Jesus Himself rebuked the Pharisees for their many man-made rules that subverted Torah and their interference with the repentance of sinners. The teachers you heard are somewhat less reprehensible if they actually practice what they preach, but they are still guilty of a terrible scandal.
Forgiveness is poorly understood. To forgive actually benefits the person forgiving. You get the other out of your head. The great example of how this works is shown by a victim of the man called “Dead Man Walking”. He “only” raped her. He killed her boyfriend. In her book she tells how what he did to her never left her. He was always in her head. Even though imprisoned on death row, he still had power over her.
She says she forgave him the day he was executed. He was hundreds of miles away, but she let him go. A weight was lifted from her. The killer never knew he was forgiven, the blessing was hers.
So when we forgive, it is also for our benefit, not just the person forgiven. So forgiveness can be seen in a very different light. We think we only bestow a gift to the person we forgive, not understanding we also benefit.
Where forgiveness intersects the person we forgive, is when they accept forgiveness. When we forgive, we must be willing to offer forgiveness to the one we forgive, if possible. To offer to forgive but not be willing to say it, only pretends forgiveness. This is helpful for those who need to forgive parents, or others who have died, or are not around to respond.
To accept forgiveness requires admitting the possibility you hurt someone, and accept a gift of forgiveness. If the person being forgiven does not accept the gift, they forgo their blessing, and their “sin” remains.
Most of the time we want a scapegoat. Someone to blame. If we can assign them blame, we are not to blame. They need to ask for forgiveness. When they go and do likewise, no one ever starts the forgiveness process. So we need to offer forgiveness as a gift, to an other sure he has done no wrong.
This understanding of forgiveness can explain why God forgives us before we ask for forgiveness. All we do when we ask for forgiveness is accept God’s forgiveness gift already offered. This helps understand Hugo’s problem is to be able to accept forgiveness, as God’s gift.
To admit the possibility you have wronged someone, leads naturally to an effort to mitigate any damage you did. If you open yourself to this, you will be blessed. Fake apologies are not covered by this dispensation.