Readers may recall Maher El-Gohary, the subject of a post about a month ago. He was an Egyptian Muslim who decided to convert to Christianity, which resulted in a spate of death threats against him. Gohary attempted to escape the fate of an apostate by trying to emigrate to Australia, an application which was promptly denied. Although Western intellectuals believe Christianity is in decline, it is by some accounts the fastest growing religion in the world. China may soon be have the world’s biggest population of Christians. Inevitably, some of those who decide to become Christians are now Muslims. Apparently El-Gohary’s problem is quite widespread. Apostasy is becoming a global problem and a number of protests have been scheduled in cities throughout the world to support the right of Muslims to change their religion. I attended the first of these at Martin Place in Sydney and was surprised to hear Barack Obama’s name mentioned in connection with the El-Gohary case. More on this later, but in the meantime, I listened to Mark Durie‘s explanation on the subject.
Durie’s remarks can be heard in their entirety here and here. They are only about 12 minutes long but had to be split into two videos to get under the ten minute YouTube limit. Basically Durie argued that Sharia law was set up like the Hotel California. You can check in any time you like, but you can never leave. You could become a Muslim, but it was nearly impossible to stop being one. That fact was becoming increasingly recognized, said Durie, as more people in the West looked into it and it was beginning to cause the severe PR problems for the Islamic world.
His remarks were delivered to a crowd consisting mostly of Australians of Arab descent, some of whom I knew to be former Muslims. The protesters tried to frame the problem of apostates within the framework of Article 18 of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that people have a right to choose their religion.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
The goals of the protesters are pretty basic. They want Western public opinion to accept that it is legitimate to challenge Islamic precepts and are using the UN’s principles to do it. President Obama‘s now famous remarks about the right to build a mosque at Ground Zero were essentially a restatement of the principles of Article 18. The president told a group gathered for a Ramadan feast that “our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable.”
But let me be clear. As a citizen, and as President, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country. And that includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in Lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances. This is America. And our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable. The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are. The writ of the Founders must endure.
So it was with some interest that I heard a human rights activist say that Maher El-Gohary’s daughter sought President Obama’s help to get the her conversion recognized before she became an adult in order to avoid liability for a more severe punishment for apostasy if she officially changed religion later. After all, if President Obama is so hot on the right to build a mosque near Ground Zero he might be expected to sympathize with a 16-year-old who just wanted to become a Christian because his “commitment to religious freedom must be unshakeable.” Of course her request was ignored. The reality is that presidents are too busy to help obscure Egyptian families, although they are not too busy to attend Ramadan dinners to endorse $100 million mosques. Justice under politics is like that. The day El-Gohary can host a glittering dinner for the president, then he too can expect a more sympathetic hearing.
Right now the short term goal of the apostates is to force Western liberals to live up to their own book of rules by showing up at their self-righteous festivals with a copy of Article 18 of the cherished “United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights.” The simple act of coming out of the shadows and into the public light creates a huge dilemma for the liberal narrative. Once they recognize that apostates exist and have legitimate rights, it becomes very difficult to avoid further and more embarrassing questions.
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Quoting the declaration would be an effective tactic if the UN were not a whited sepulchre when it comes to human rights. Australia is right now being berated for trying to impose some sensible rules regarding aboriginals on social security payments while in many countries real damage is being done to people. The UN should be shut down, it’s such a bad joke. If it can be made useful as an aid delivery organisation that will have to do. It no longer has legitimacy to pontificate on anything more serious, given the number of unelected or improperly elected governments supplying reps to swan about and make up stupid “Rapports”.
One of the worst aspects of post-modern society is that it proclaims it’s morals and principles loudly and repeatedly, and then turns around and applies those same morals to only the politically acceptable groups. This gives people who live outside the post-modern world an entirely wrong idea of what is going on.
They need to understand that freedom and rights are selectively applied. Muslims=OK, Christians (of any sort)=Not OK; “activists” destroying the center of a city to protest a G-7 meeting=OK, Tea Party members quietly protesting against insane taxes and spending=racist.
El-Gohary and his daughter probably believed that Obama was serious when he made his statement about religious freedom. The poor fools might have even read and believed what the UN’s Article 18 said and thus thought that it gave them rights. They just aren’t subtle enough, sophisticated enough, to understand that only the enemies of civilization have rights, only the opponents of sanity may be given consideration. They probably are mystified by Bush=War Criminal when Mugabe=Swell Guy.
Little people don’t have rights, only screaming, red-faced haters from backward despotic lands are allowed to express themselves freely. Burn a Koran and there is outrage, “Piss Christ” meanwhile wins accolades and grants. Scribble a cartoon of Mo and cities burn, murder 2700 people and you get to open a victory monument less than a decade later (and on the same day as the event).
One wonders why the simpletons just don’t Get It.
Blogstrop, I agree, the UN should be defunded and then dropped into some Third World dump of a country. NYC could use the land for a park or at least parking spaces. The very idea that some tin-hat dictator can come among us as an equal and lecture us about our “transgressions” and responsibilities makes me sick.
Oooh! a Declaration!
I never cease to be amazed by the European and third-world peasant fascination with acts of pretended legislation by a phony international “legislature”. The UN, or associated phenomena, even have phony courts and phony executive bodies that hold hearings and issue declarations.
It’s all ridiculous, of course. Hot air from tribes with flags holds no sway in the real world. In THAT world, there is no safety or succor for ex-Muslims, unless they happen to live in a free country – an archaic concept which the UN is trying very hard to eliminate.
Fortunately, except for some expensive real estate in Manhattan and Geneva, the UN doesn’t really exist.
Hello Wretchard,
You wrote:
“Inevitably some of those who decide to become Christians are now Muslims.”
And I suspect you wanted to write the reverse.
I would like your opinion on the efficiency of moving the Islamists’ war to a successful close for the West, by insisting at the point of a gun that Saudi Arabia also respect Article 18–that Saudi Arabia has voided their Westphalian sovereignty by being cradle to a totalitarian philosophy which they have permitted their citizens to export, and in self defense we must suppress it at it’s center of gravity.
“Right now the short term goal of the apostates is to force Western liberals to live up to their own book of rules…”
Ah, but noneother than Lenin spoke to this: “Party members should not be measured by the narrow standard of petty bourgeois snobbery. Sometimes a scoundrel is useful to our party, just because he is a scoundrel.”
Flexibility in moral standards is not just an advantage the Left seizes gratefully and often. It is an essential element for their survival.
“Article 18 of the UN Universal Declaration of Rights which states that people had a right to choose their religon.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship”
Article 18 can also be used to counter PC thought control; I get to think what I like about AGW, same sex marriage, the efficacy of Keynesian economics or whatever I please. I do believe I’ll be quoting that particular article more often heretofore. It matters not to me that the UN is a moribund and corrupt institution, it is holy to the Left. I will use Alinsky rules to force them to play by their own rules.
Sweet.
I suppose you could get western libs and feminists interested in these rights. But they’re probably too busy protesting the election of Iran to the commission on the status of women.
When they get that fixed….
Demographics are against us, the jihadis use our open society to their advantage, etc. But this grand jihad, basically kicked off by the Mufti of Jerusalem when he was getting checks from the Third Reich, is doomed to fail. Islam is a dying force in spite of appearances. It can only survive in the totalitarian or isolated enclaves of ignorance. Although the Buddha Dharma is the extreme polar opposite of Islam, especially if you value free and rational thinking, the emotional and devotional appeal of the Gospel is going to decimate Islam. The victims of Sharia are going to go rogue in the open societies of the West. The Mamma Grizzly Factor. The Victory Mosque proponents think they can undermine America from within. But in the long run they got nothing. Their ideology is doomed like Soviet communism.
Like the League of Nations, the UN has outlived it’s usefulness. The problem, like always is timing. It (the UN) needs to be replaced but the replacement needs to be ready to step in quickly.
Like trading in the old beater for a brand new shiny Hubmobile. You want to swap keys and get out of there, not hang around and fill out papers.
The Poles started something that might work early in the Clinton administration. IIRC it was called the ‘Council of Democracies’. Not sure what ever happened to it. Clinton and his Sex Poodles didn’t like it because of NIH (not invented here) syndrome.
To me that was it’s second best feature.
America killed the LON (aborted might be a better word), and created the UN. So an international body by Democracies for Democracies that the USA joins instead of creates might be better. Joining would lessen the charges that the whole thing was a ploy by America ( not that the State Department has someone clever enough to create a ploy) while not affecting the power wielded by the USA in the slightest.
So the seconf tier democracies need to work out the details. That would create a buy-in for them and reduce the outcry from the despots who see the UN as a source of wealth and prestige. They won’t be happy about losing either.
The first amendment unwritten “right” of expression ends when your fist hits my nose. Freedom of speech stops when that speech causes harm to someone. So it is only logical that Freedom of religion should have limits also. When religion is used as a weapon, then it should be illegal.
THAT is what the whole Mosque thangie is about. The real question is do we use the legislative process to define the limits on freedom of religion, or do we let the tyrants in black robes decide?
The mosque is a memorial to the 19 terrorists that killed around 3,000 American non-combatants.
Westerners have trouble understanding that because most think a Mosque is just a funny looking church. It isn’t and never has been. Since Islam is both religion AND government a Mosque has always been Temple, School, Market, Hospital, Memorial, Arms Depot and Administrative center. ALL of them, although the proportion varies from site to site.
The Major primary of a Mosque has always been to spread Islam to newly conquered lands. That is why they are built.
Nothing about Mosques in the Koran, AFAIK. Mosques were a product of the second wave of Islamic expansion.
Fascinating. And remember, Obama could be the poster boy for Islamic apostasy if he weren’t so busy being a secret Muslim. Lordy, but he’s just a bad example everywhere he goes, isn’t he?
Skip: ” So it is only logical that Freedom of religion should have limits also. When religion is used as a weapon, then it should be illegal.THAT is what the whole Mosque thangie is about. ”
Bullseye.
The sad truth is I have never heard a single conservative legal scholar or “conservative” politician question whether the there are limits to the protection of Islam’s criminal activities under the First Amendment.
The same party establishment that is trying to renominate Lisa Murkowski, after she so obviously lost her reelection primary, using methods worthy only of Ayers, Buraq and the Chicago gang, will use all it’s power to shut up and shut down anyone who brings up such an extremely important issue as this one.
Heaven forbid that we confront directly a threat to this country. We simply cannot be discussing such things in the polite company of the MSM and media. We must follow always the Left’s version of political Queensbury rules that favor the our enemies, our traitors, murderers and thugs.
Perhaps compliance with Article 18 should be a prerequisite for membership in a successor organisation to the UN.
Anton, I look forward to your comments and those above are some of your best. Richard, same to you, mate.
“Ayers, Buraq and the Chicago gang, will use all it’s power to shut up and shut down anyone who brings up such an extremely important issue as this one.”
The up-side of being the village idiot is that they can’t shut me down. So I’ll Jill slap them with facts as often as I want. As hard as I want. Not that it will change their mind, but Even village idiots need entertainment and sometimes YouTube just isn’t enough.
Having worked along side the UNHCR and observed their work in refugee camps in CAR, Chad, Kenya, Sudan and Somalia, I must say the only thing I have seen them do with any vigor is complain about how petty the US response is — despite the fact that the US contribution is far and away the largest. A Foreign Service colleague who used to blog under the nom de plume “Diplomad” posted several years ago on the response of the US and of the UN to the Indonesian tsunami. It was laughable except that it was so sad. Yes, the UN has outlived its usefulness (as have a number of executive branch offices of the USG) but I think it has a bureaucratic inertia of its own that we will be hard pressed to overcome. I’d love to see it overcome, though, and be replaced by something smaller, more efficient, less self-aggrandizing, and funded to a lesser extent by the US. F
What is a religion…exactly? I mean to say, what defines something as a “religion”.
Can I ride in on a white steed one day and declare that all who follow me will find the kingdom of heaven, but once they join…they will be shot as deserters if they try to leave? Can I shoot them?
And that all women are now property of the men in my religion? They must wear burlap sacks and football helmets at all times in public…and if they are caught without their football helmets, they should be stoned? Can we men stone them?
I also wish to wipe out all Eskimo tribes. I think that Eskimo tribes are a “gutter” assemblage of people. In my mandate, I say that having any dialogue with Eskimo people is a waste of time, that only their annihilation is an acceptable goal. Can a build shrine in Alaska, so that I can be close to them…come into the most contact with them? Is that a noble enough goal for a “religion”?
What if my “preachers” go to the pulpit and “pray” for the destruction of all Eskimo people, because they are the sons of apes and pigs? Am I still a “religion”, if I seek to slander, demonize and annihilate a whole race of people?
What if members of my flock hijack dog sleds and ram them into igloos all over Eskimo land? Can I build a shrine on the blood soaked snow to commemorate the triumph of my “religion” there?
Will Article 18 protect my actions, no matter what they are…as long as I call my acts “religious”?
If Canadians take up the protective banner on behalf of Eskimo victims, can I plot to blow up Toronto? Gun down a group of Royal Mounties, shouting “nibxiktuq to all Eskimo people and their infidel supporters!” Is that still a “religion”, if I do that?
When does a “religion” cease to be a “religion”? When does it become so antithetical to the laws, mores and moral rules of a society…that the society says that it won’t accept it under Article 18 or any other misapplied “protection”?
The “freedom” to practice “religion”…is it incapable of being defined? Are there no boundaries? Anything goes? Are there no absolutes for moral guidance in our society…anyone’s concept of morality is as good as anyone else’s…therefore, there are no restrictions upon what “flies”?
Or are there some tenets that are so polar opposite to our social construct, that we simply say, “that doesn’t fly here, sorry”. Can we say that and not be “bigoted”?
Are there any lines that we simply can’t cross as a society…or do we glorify form over substance in our laws and social constructs? If we can’t answer these questions, we don’t have a society..we have anomie.
In re Obama’s status as an islam: If the paternity thing is valid, and I believe it is for the islams, his being raised as a Christian would, at least as far as the West is concerned, trump the islam thing. But he spent a very formative part of his childhood in Indonesia as an islam. Which kinda kills the ‘raised as a Christian’ idea along with the communism of his mother. I think he is an islam in the eyes of the islams, but we cannot know what is in his heart.
He is rumored to have spent time in Pakistan as a teenager (I think)
We can observe those who are very much interested in the matter. The saudis were very nice to him. There are rumors he has assured an Egyptian diplomat of his adherence to islam. The irans are dismissive but that could be the shiite/sunni issue.
I am not much into conspiracy theories but they grow where there is doubt and doubt grows from a lack of data. He has covered a lot of his past and nobody seems curious.
Takiyya anyone?
I think the seed-of-the-father thing is important in different ways according to who and where you are.
A doctrinaire Muslim would consider O to be a Muslim until he formally repudiated it, in which case he’d be an apostate. Not sure how the death penalty for apostasy applies to people protected by the USSS.
Even sitting in Wright’s church for a couple of decades doesn’t, iirc, overcome the presumption of Islamistism absent a formal renunciation.
Hell, he didn’t listen to the sermons, did he?
No harm, no foul.
So one question is what Muslims think about this and what do they do about it. Keep quiet, is my guess.
Nothing says “death to islam” quite like apostate’s going to another religion.
That the full faith and trust of the US government has been the instrument of support for an organization designed to spread enhance and promote democracy, seems ironically to have been the weapon of choice for the Islamists, which governments control most of the committees and boards within the institution while not ever giving more than lip service to Article 18 among others. Alinsky would be proud.
Who will fund the fundees once the fundamental instrument is no longer to be trusted? Is it in the interest of KSA or Beijing to manage such a corruptible and corrupting thing? For Beijing it would require the recognition of the fundamental notion of hujman rights, for the house of Saud it would mean recognition of the rights of individuals while being in the peculiar position of supposedly preserving the traditions of Islam.
When faced with the certainty of massive disconnection and defection due to Copernican observations what did western religious traditions do? I expect no less of Islam, or CNN for that matter. It is indeed a long war.
The difficulty is that there is no central religious authority, and many local or regional authorities hold opposing views which seem to walk on the egg shell which is the Islamist perspective. They have no need to explore WWMD? How do we hold their murderous hand from committing such a self destructive act? For if Islam does not come to grips with how to allow for moderation it will certainly implode.
It is the stuff Pope Benedict is about.
“Restoring Honor” – Live stream
They just finished singing “Amazing Grace” complete with beautiful live music with bagpipes.
I hope it is being recorded, because you need to see and hear it.
I got in on it late myself.
Papa Ray
6. Tamquam
Heh. I like the way you think.
The hypocrisy is choking me. Those who frame the mosque issue as a matter of supporting or rejecting the Constitution and the First Amendment should be asked, “If you support the First Amendment, would you defend the right of someone to put a billboard of the Danish cartoon of Muhammed across the street from the mosque?” Obviously, if they say no, they are not true constitutionalists.
Second, a crucial difference between religious worship protected by the First Amendment and cult activity that is not protected, is the degree of freedom one has to choose to be a part of that religion or choose NOT to be a part of that religion. Here is the text of the First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
There it is folks. If you are not permitted the FREE exercise thereof — and that means free to leave and free NOT to participate as well as free to join — you are not a religion that merits First Amendment protection.
Just say NO!
@18,
The church pastorized by Rev wright as an admixture of NOI, liberation theology and radical values, could arguably be a variant of Muslum preachment albeit without the minarets and calls to prayer. The Congregational ties are as firm as the UN’s commitment to Article 18
Skip, every reference I’ve ever seen to the failure of the League of Nations was premised on the assumption that it failed mainly because the U.S. was not a participant.
The absurdity of that logic is this: during the life of the League, the USA was deep within its most adamant “head-in-sand” isolationist ostrich act. Anyone who takes more than a few minutes to look up what was going on around the world and inside the USA will see that Americans were so preoccupied with just surviving day-to-day, they simply didn’t pay much attention to the chaos in all the other countries. Those who did weren’t too shy to shout that the US shouldn’t get entangled in stupid foreign dust-ups.
When Italy was cheerfully machine-gunning and gassing Ethiopian tribesmen, the notion that a hypothetical U.S. delegate would have shown any more spine than the rest of’em, is just a bad joke.
But, yeah, you can see that if someone REALLY BELIEVES that the League failed because President Fascist Wilson was betrayed by the evil and petty U.S. Senate (which refused to ratify his precious treaty) the logical extension of that delusion would be to think the United Nations would be more successful, because We are members. (But just look how the consistently self-serving veto votes of the other UNSC members has shown that to be a big fat fantasy.)
Tragically, the United Nations has retro-evolved to become a vast house of prostitution, dominated by the murderous thug dictators of some hundred new nations of dazed slaves. Those subjects watched their supreme leaders chieve power by the slaughter tens of thousands of their friends and family, while the US and other “civilized” nations clucked and looked away. Try to make sense of the spasm of inverted logic that welcomed the tyrants of these new nations — each carved out of the living flesh of suffering farmers, herdsmen, women and children — to an international institution dedicated at least nominally to the peaceful and equitable resolution of conflict.
This has made the U.N. a travesty; A SICK JOKE; an open running abscess governed by pimps and child molesters. It is a titanic siphon sucking the wealth out of our pockets to deposit it in the vaults of those dictators.
p.s. to Papa Ray – C-span broadcast the whole thing, will play it again later.
Let that be you.
Papa Ray
The current generation of wanna-be-ex-muslims is going to have to perform some heavy lifting to bring Islam into the 21st century. Our forefathers had to do the same in 1776. Unfortunately, the progressives have just about rolled that back. Our only hope is a server reboot before they crack the root password.
“Skip, every reference I’ve ever seen to the failure of the League of Nations was premised on the assumption that it failed mainly because the U.S. was not a participant.”
Which is why I wanted to use the word abortion, only abortion is such a charged word and some of the PJM floaters are not very literate. Remember, it’s not just the BCer’s that post here and some of them (floaters) have the intellectual skills of a box of rocks. So I try not to present things in such a way as to let them wander off the trail. Sort of like herding goats.
If it was only the BC crowd, I would have used just the word abortion.
IMHO, If the USA had been a member of the LON, then maybe Japan would not have walked out. Maybe Italy would have not invaded Ethiopia. And maybe I’ll hit the powerball tonight…..
The US as a Leage participant is not a matter of one more dipplemat signing a useless petition or whatever it was.
The US would have been, would have had to be, the hammer of the League.
The Allies were exhausted. Compared to their exertions in WW I, we had just finished a vigorous warm-up, out total casualties less than twice the Brits’ one morning on the Somme (iirc?).
That left us.
Funny thing, that. The folks who insist we should have been in the League are insisting, irrespective of their supposed goals, that we run around the world attacking people at the behest of the League.
Not what they think they mean.
oikophobia – fear of the familiar
James Taranto at WSJ doing some of his best writing in quite a while, on just wtf is it about Obambus and the leftoids.
The turbaned iman said come in
His swarthy features wreathed in grin
We welcome you to paradise
Come join with all the gals and guys
Who have accepted Allah’s will
Whose words in heathens quite instill
The fear that God will strike them down
As noble Atta struck the crown
Of western arrogance and greed
Oh how I love to see them bleed
What’s that you say, you’ve changed your mind
I do not mean to be unkind
But once a Muslim always so
In truth you have nowhere to go
For Allah says that we must slay
All those who do not choose to stay
With great regret then you must die
For we were friends sir you and I
But we must bend to Allah’s will
In death you will be Muslim still
Somewhere there’s a post lost to ‘moderation.’
Too many commenters here have missed the point. We agree the UN is bad, bad, bad and worse, but that is not the issue. 6. Tamquam has it right!:
We on the right need use the tools we have – not the unavailable ones we’d prefer – and beat the progressives into the dust. Get over the stench and use the UN when it’s handy. Afterward we can close it up and ship the stinking mess off to Guantanamo Bay or Han Island, whatever.
What the world needs now is a place where Moslems can go to renounce Islam, a place where they can cast off the chains of Sharia Law, a place where all God’s people can worship (or deny) God a the manner they choose — no matter they be black or white or Moslem.
What better place to build a Freedom from Islamic Extremism Center than Ground Zero where so many died at the hands of Islamic Extremists.
sv @ 34: What better place to build a Freedom from Islamic Extremism Center than Ground Zero where so many died at the hands of Islamic Extremists.
works for me … though it’s hardly a unique location on that account.
I promise to pay the barber who de-beards any de-reverts there, and for the ladies … her choice of tank tops.
Both the apostate rallies and the “honor” event in Washington DC create, in their own ways and in their own scales, an “existence” problem for the ruling elites. Yoo-hoo. We’re here. We exist. What are you going to do about it?
For others, existence rallies are acts of affirmation and defiance. For example, Sarah Palin at the “honor” event in Washington said ‘did you think you were alone? Hardly. Look around you and you will see that you are not alone’. That was one of the most effective moments of her speech.
The reason why the regular press will be at pains to minimize or edit these events into oblivion is precisely because each day something that’s not supposed to exist continues to survive amounts to an indictment of the ruling narrative. It’s the old “power of No” again in another guise.
It is a necessary but not a sufficient condition to challenging the prevailing narrative. At some point it actually has to challenge the conventional wisdom and establish a new one. But in the meantime simply getting to groups to rise to a kinda sorta defiance is a powerful enough. It’s a mini declaration of independence.
Though no one will admit it, these events demoralize the hacks whose will increasingly find they must rely on astroturf methods to raise support that is even a fraction of what the rebels can mobilize. Another way to think about it is they are starting to fear losing the battle for ‘cool’. Conservatives and apostates are still a long way but perilously nearing the boundary of “cool”. That makes for interesting metrics. Once you start hearing hit songs, or seeing celebrities at open variance from the standard narrative that is powerful evidence that the tide is turning.
But that’s not there yet. As Ms. Palin put it in her speech in her second-coolest line, ‘you just have to keep putting one foot in front of the other’ and whether you are trying to evade the Taliban, or attempting to fight having lost both hands and the use your leg, or being in the Hanoi Hilton for years, one way or the other, you will overcome.
“I Do Not Believe In Religious Dialogue”
HIS PLANS FOR THE MOSQUE
“NO RELIGIOUS DIALOGUE”
To the Cairo University on Rights For All an article titled “The Most Prominent Imam in New York “I Do Not Believe In Religious Dialogue”
He also admitted that “[In the West] they have separation of church and state, this of course does not exist in any Muslim country. About 99% refuse to separate religion from state and many call for establishing an Islamic Caliphate.”
CONCLUSION
This should alarm the ardent skeptic on the mindset of the Islamic visionary who advocates establishing Islamic lobbies throughout the West.
Abdul Rauf uses stealth strategies that make it difficult to detect their Shariah driven agenda and while under the guise of interfaith dialogue and building bridges in what they say in English.
In Arabic the statements are clear—the bridge is to build Shariah.
—
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPTS
What Imam Of Ground Zero Mosque Says
Translated Verbatim from the Arabic
(by Walid Shoebat)
9/11 MOSQUE IMAM BOASTS:
‘Obama’s historic speech in Egypt came from me’
In previous reports researched by the Walid Shoebat Foundation, it was revealed that Imam Rauf has made statements in the Arabic language – while appearing on Arabic media outlets – that completely contradict his moderate tone when speaking english, exposing him as a direct supporter of terrorism, both financially and verbally.
NOW THIS!
So who really was speaking on that historic day of June 4th 2009 in Egypt? President Obama or the Imam of the proposed Ground Zero Mosque, Feisal Abdul Rauf?
The Shoebat Foundation has obtained a shocking audio recording of Rauf’s own voice boasting in Arabic that Obama’s historic speech in Cairo was provided by the Imam’s work with the Cordova Initiative in what the Imam called “The Blue Print” which, according to him, was the solution to the Islamic-American divide. Rauf claimed that Chapter 6 of the Imam’s work engineered by the Cordova Initiative was the construct for the entire speech:
“This is an example of the impact of our work in a positive way to be used by the president.”
“The blue print,” Rauf elaborated, included everything from U.S. policy to Jewish and Christian relations with Muslims.
For an Imam in New York to be involved in the orchestrating U.S. foreign policy is quite the claim. In the recording dated February 5th, 2010 Rauf boasted that:
“We have to look at it [as] how to engineer solutions. At the Cordova Initiative we think of ourselves as an engineering shop. Yes. We have an analytical approach. Our work has been that.
IN THE BOOK CHAPTER 6, I WROTE ABOUT THIS BLUE PRINT as to WHAT HAS TO BE DONE BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT, what has to be done by the Jewish community, what has to be done by the Christian community, what has to be done by the Muslim community, what has to be done by educators, what has to be done by the media.
For example, IN MY BOOK IN THE ARABIC VERSION page 293, what did I write? WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO DO. IF YOU EXAMINE THIS CHAPTER YOU WILL FIND THAT THE OBAMA SPEECH IN CAIRO WAS ALL TAKEN FROM THIS SECTION [Section 6].
—
His suggestion to Muslims on how to deal with western Christians and Jews was:
“deal with them as one courts a pretty girl he wants to date; stop thinking like a typical Muslim. Then you can engage.”
He also discussed how he courted Bloomberg and the Jewish Community boards that “we have inroads with the Jewish Community Center”.
“people need to use peaceful means to advise the governors and government institutions…we also suggest to the governors and political institutions to CONSULT [MUSLIM] RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS AND [MUSLIM] PERSONALITIES IN THE FIELD SO AS TO ASSURE THEIR DECISION MAKING TO REFLECT THE SPIRIT OF SHARIAH.”
—
A Medal of honor should be conceived for Obama and Bloomberg.
I suggest calling it:
“The Littlest Man Award”
In recognition of the great lengths these men will go to to compensate for their non-existent feelings of self worth.
Another possible name for the Obama/Bloomberg Award:
“Meritorius Service Award for Promoting and Maintaing Dishonor”
—
Doors Start to Open to Activists in Syria
ALEPPO, Syria — For five years, Chavia Ali’s attempts to start a disability rights group were thwarted — by prejudice, a lack of money and the Syrian government’s stranglehold on civic life. The government gave her a license, but prevented the group from meeting because of what Ms. Ali believes was a whisper campaign against her, a Kurd with a growing profile.
Then everything changed.
Last year, Ms. Ali was told that a third of her budget would be paid by a group led by Asma al-Assad, the wife of the Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad. Now Ms. Ali, 29, is everywhere, giving television interviews, speaking at ministry conferences and having her picture taken with the first lady.
The reversal of her group’s fortunes is part of an overture that government officials have described as a new embrace of civil society.
But the embrace is complicated. Even as doors have opened for a few people, like Ms. Ali, they have shut with increasing frequency on activists demanding greater political rights, according to human rights lawyers here. While some rights advocates welcome any opening, no matter how small, others say it extends only to groups that pose no challenge to the established order.
“Civil society means free people create free initiatives,” said one Syrian activist, one of many who requested anonymity for fear of government reprisal. “How can un-free people do that?”
Ms. Ali embodies the conundrum. Her cousin was arrested this summer by the security services during one of their regular sweeps through Kurdish villages, but she refuses to talk about what happened.
“Some ideas you can’t touch,” she said. “I don’t want to go outside of my case. I am working on disabilities.”
Doug
Rauf Off the Record
Rauf continued to speak off-the-record after an interview was concluded. He compares himself to a football coach who sends in “players” like Obama to move the ball forward a couple yards at a time. Rauf is soft spoken but leaves no doubt about who is in charge and who is calling the plays.
Rauf is very clear about what he is up to. He is the soft side of the Muslim Brotherhood. He uses his charm and pleasant personality to keep the lambs comfortable and resting while the distant wolves salivate and dream of feasting on the carcass.
One has to be brain dead to not at least consider that the Cordoba islamic center would be used as an empowering symbol throughout islamoworld. Bloomberg and his liberal cohorts either refuse to acknowledge reality or they just don’t care. I’m not sure which it is although it doesn’t seem to matter anymore. The same bad end results in either case.
We’re in a race. Either the Left consolidates enough power so it can ignore public opinion and elections, or the Great Unwashed pushes them into political Siberia. Like Lincoln siad, “A house divided cannot stand. It will be one way or the other.”
Boston:
His wife may be even better in the practice of Taquiya!
Sold Ingraham a Bill of Goods for a while, and still has either Irshad Manji or Ayaan Hirsi Ali under her spell.
Don”t have time right now to find out which.
I got back from the Restoring Honor rally on the mall a couple hours ago. The crowd went from Lincoln Memorial to the Washington Monument. My wag as to numbers on the mall today would be about 400 k. The biggest crowd I’ve seen was about 1 million on the mall about 10 years ago for a men’s christian group called Stand in the Gap. The press ignored it but featured the louis farrakan Million Man March that was later put on.
I saw very few press at today’s events the one crew I did see was clustered around leftists with signs.
That was likely just me. I think this one will get more coverage.
Beck’s closing speach talked about the black robed brigade of the American revolution. These were preachers. Beck mentioned that the American revolution was preceded by the Great Awakening and pastors like George Whitefield, that the language from the revolution was first created in the Great Awakening.
At this time the theology of the America was mostly Calvinist. These were the losers denomination of the wars on the continent and england of the wars of the previous century.
Richard Aubrey @ 29
No, the League did NOT fail because of the US not being in it. Had the French sent just one division into the Rhineland when Hitler remilitarized it, and the Brits and French together a couple of divisions with air support to Abyssinia to stop Mussolini in 1935 or 1936, the League would have defeated fascism and been considered a success. I have never seen any evidence, credible or otherwise, that the US not being a League member had any bearing on the League’s and France’s and Britain’s inaction.
Bob Murphy @ 12
I like that idea, maybe some day the US will again be in a position to lead such an effort.
W “Yoo-hoo. We’re here. We exist. What are you going to do about it?”
W, we are trying in my small city and surrounding area to awaken the population and get them educated, fired up and sworn to vote. Along the way a few good men and one woman have stepped up to the line and are now working along side me.
Time is getting short, but reinforcements are arriving. The battle will be close fought.
We also have a contributor of sorts, I’m not sure exactly how to classify him except to say that he has given us some money for expenses, bought supplies himself and generally been supportive. He insists though that he not be directly involved, especially if there is media attention or questions asked by anyone. We don’t know his motives nor intentions, we are not asking as of yet, cause we don’t want to run him off.
He was one of my first contacts when I started going door to door. He didn’t contact me for over 6 weeks.
Puzzle that.
I tried to watch the rally at C-Span, but it is down, saying to check back later. I missed most of it when it was live streaming as my youngest grand daughter was having her birthday party and we were involved and having a great time. She is now officially three years old going on five in most things and even older in others. It continues to amaze me, my oldest grand daughter was somewhat the same but at a later age. I have tried to raise them as equals and not show favor to either one, They are my life, my joy and my reason for living. We had most of the family over and it was all good.
I read yesterday about the warehouse in Houston burning down along with all the voting machines and associated gear. All this after there were at least two accusations of voter fraud and promised investigations. With everything in ashes now the democrats are complaining that everything must be done to make sure their voters are not inconvenienced or hampered from voting.
I hope I live long enough to see them get their due.
Papa Ray
That’s right Papa Ray. It’s not like the movies where the soundtrack suddenly comes on after the rousing speech. What happens is hundreds of gray days when you are just slogging, doing the groundwork, staying behind the scenes. And then one day it happens as if by magic. But it isn’t magic.
The magic that you may see some day is the accumulation of that slogging reaching a critical mass, finding its moment, coming to the boiling point. My own experience is that there are many such moments at different levels and they almost always surprise even the person who did the most to put things together.
The fancy term for this is “emergence”; it is what happens in a complex system when things start feeding off each other. But the thing to remember is that it is not always one way. You can have terribly distressing and frightening emergent events. About all you can really do is remain flexible, keep a reserve of good people and good plans and keep your cool. Then you’ll be ready for whatever comes.
As I’ve argued elsewhere, the biggest impact of the Tea Party movement is the widespread experience of doing something. It will be different things for different people. Some will play a leading role because they can and they must. For others it will only a word of encouragement, perhaps an apple offered, maybe a sticker put on a bumper. And yet all those things will make the difference.
If Obama had really converted to Christianity wouldn’t he likewise be the subject of constant death threats?
Wouldn’t he be the most hated and scorned man in the Muslim world?
But… he’s not- for some reason we’re not allowed to hypothesize about-
Not that complicated to me- I can’t work that hard-
It goes without saying that Obozo would never help another Muslim become an apostate.
Even more evidence that Obama is Muslim
I was at Restoring Honor, too, mainly because my dad is a big Beck fan and needed me there. Four things surprised me.
1)The size of the friggin’ crowd. Basically, human carpet from the Lincoln Memorial to the Washington obelisk.
2) The religious theme — yes, I think Beck is trying to ignite a Great Awakening. Interesting approach, although I was also there 10 years ago for the 1 million man Promise Keepers gathering and that didn’t bear a lot of fruit, as near as I could judge.
3) So many black speakers, and the special tribute to Martin Luther King. The King tribute struck my ear as a little phony. Or am I mistaken that King was a Leftist?
4) The number of people who brought their kids. Wow. That will give the freedom movement longevity.
Marty.
I did not say the League failed because the US wasn’t in it. I said that, had we been in it, we would have been supposed to do the wet work. Not that that would have saved much.
Suppose the French and Brits had asked a fellow League member, the US, to help out in 1936. Don’t know if we could have come up with a division.
My point is that the folks who reproach the US for not being in the League fail to realize that our role, as described by others, would have been to be the Hammer.
Gwynn Dyer once remarked that the dirty little secret of the UN is that, when UN-sponsored war has to be done, it’s those awful white guys doing most of it, and the US most of all.
Would have been the same in the League, had the League voted for war any place.
Which, as you point out, they weren’t likely to.
Richard (49), remember this old one? NATO = Needs Americans To Operate
“Or am I mistaken that King was a Leftist?”
No evidence that he was. Go back a few posts and read Richards writing on revisionist history.
Hoover and others wanted to label Dr. King as a Commie so they could slander him and lay the ground work for a media trial. They were scared of the blowback of trying for a legal trial. IIRC, the King family still thinks that James Earl Ray was a patsy and the support effort behind him was US Government. No more evidence for that then there is that Dr, King was a commie.
But one rumor is considered fact and the other a wild eyed conspiracy.
The lone nut gunman is almost impossible, which is why whenever any government provides that for an answer, a rational man has to look hard at the question. Especially when a government commission puts forth the lone nut theory. The harder the ‘elites’ support the lone nut explanation, the less likely it is to be factual.
Ask a cop that is a friend. He will tell you that if there are loose ends in a case, the DA usually won’t prosecute. Look at the OJ case. To many loose ends. If Jack Ruby hadn’t done the dirty, there would have been one ‘ell of a trial, with a pretty good chance of Lee Harvey walking. It would have been fun watching a Physics Professor trying to explain how a bullet turned in mid-air without touching anything, or having the firearms expert explain how the bullet went thru JFK, turned in mid air, went thru the Governor, then was found on the stretcher at the hospital without a scratch on it. That bullet disappeared later. I’m not a big fan of ‘majic’ bullets and doubt that there are 12 people in Texas that are.
After selling that fresh, 3 day old fish to the public, passing Dr. King off as a commie would be seen as a cake walk. One of my regrets about dying soon is that I won’t live long enough to see some of the 20th century cover ups exposed. That and not being able to visit/urinate on Carter’s grave. SOB has to have made a deal with the devil.
People like your “contributor” are often some of the most interesting people you’ll meet. Undoubtedly he’s someone who has reason to fear retaliation if his views come out in the open, and not just from political forces – some of those family pressures are the most vicious of all, especially when a lot of money is involved.
Of course, this usually just encourages the put upon member to work even harder for what he believes – as long as he can do it without being caught, of course.
Let’s just say I’ve seen some of that in-the-family maneuvering up close and personal.
“The King tribute struck my ear as a little phony. Or am I mistaken that King was a Leftist?”
I wasn’t there did not stream it, but know that MLK was a republican, and despite the hijack of the SCLC by young and impatient black leaders, and as well as some impious whites, the words and ideas Rev. King spoke go to the heart of the dream, not a black dream, not a white dream but one for all our children.
W, PR/36,44,45–
Yes, I’ve seen it in non-political areas of my life: you’re plugging along, no real signs of getting ahead of the problem, can’t quit–then you begin to sense improvement, the breathing rate slows, monitor pattern looks better. It was working all the time but hadn’t yet gotten to the point where it showed on the surface.
I’ve told med students: “When the first molecule of penicillin hits the first bacterium, it dies; then by the thousands, then by the millions, but it may take many millions before you can be sure it’s working. The worst thing you can do is start meddling with a sound plan.”
The media don’t attend Beck’s rally. It’s stupid bunch of losers or, as you said, just not cool. Even covering such a silly thing is embarrassing, totally uncool.
But when the turnaround comes, they’re flabbergasted–had no idea!
And maybe a lot of us are, too. Palin asked everyone to note they aren’t alone. But the decentralized nature of the TP movement guarantees nobody in it can know what the collective effect or strength is overall.
Examples: 1) Miller in AK: ‘way out there, practically in Siberia or something. And everybody knows that Murkowski has the inside track and the polls confirm it. But a letter to Instapundit reveals that the TPers were quietly working behind the scenes, getting enough money, going around talking to non-reporters, finding out the truth. You know the result: “upset”, “unexpected”–except the guy who wrote Instapundit pointed out it was not at all to those who had good information, not press releases.
2) I have a relative who’s active in the TP in the Dallas area, has been since the beginning. He mentioned casually that there was going to be a big meeting last night, but not a rally, tho anybody could come. It was “. . . what you might call committee heads but there’s no official name. We’ve been at this for months. You’d be amazed what we’ve been doing.”
Now, Dallas is generally a conservative area so no surprise there but he wasn’t aware of the fellow in AK. When I filled him in, he said, “It’s a lot like that here.”
So, what do you know? In AK, the penicillin was working all the time.
For Wretchard, a different cup of tea:
“The Zaitokukai gained notoriety last year when it staged noisy protests at the home and junior high school of a 14-year-old Philippine girl, demanding her deportation after her parents were sent home for overstaying their visas. More recently, the Zaitokukai picketed theaters showing “The Cove,” an American documentary about dolphin hunting here that rightists branded as anti-Japanese. . .
Mr. Sakurai says the group is not racist, and rejected the comparison with neo-Nazis. Instead, he said he had modeled his group after another overseas political movement, the Tea Party in the United States. He said he had studied videos of Tea Party protests, and shared with the Tea Party an angry sense that his nation had gone in the wrong direction because it had fallen into the hands of leftist politicians, liberal media as well as foreigners.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/world/asia/29japan.html?pagewanted=2&hp
If you map this national park service picture tool over on to this
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2579336/posts“>picture of the restoring honor rally — you can get a rough idea of the size of the crowd. The trees on the right obscure the dense crowds beneath them.
I believe the national park service is going to give a crowd estimate on monday.
The Dangers of Germany’s Dependence on China
08/27/2010
Beijing’s High-Tech Ambitions
Der Spiegal Online
China is seeking to engage with the West, but on its own terms. German companies are beginning to feel the effects of this policy. For instance, they note with concern that there is a growing tendency among the Chinese to blatantly demand the divulgence of industrial know-how in return for the right to do business in China. And it irritates them that China is treating traditional German industrial domains as strategic business fields.
The contradictions have even crept into the rhetoric of corporate leaders. When German senior executives are in Beijing or Shanghai, they have nothing but glowing praise for the country. But the minute they return to Munich or Düsseldorf, they complain about industrial espionage and instruct their personnel departments to avoid hiring Chinese interns at all costs.
As wretchard pointed out in comment #36 above the most powerful thing Palin said in her speech was that we were not alone. That, more than anything, is the message that the current powers that be fear more than anything else.
The current narrative has been and continues to be that anyone who opposes the agenda of the Ruling Class is a member of a small and shrinking minority headed toward extinction, inferior beings that the tide of social evolution shall sweep away into oblivion. To a great degree they got a lot of people who opposed them to believe it. How can you fight it? Despair and apathy followed.
But once the disaffected realize that they are not alone and not some fringe minority they begin to see that resistance is not futile, and that they may indeed refuse to be assimilated. I think this is happening now.
The question is what measures the Ruling class will take to maintain the narrative, and what measures they will take to maintain their power if and when the current narrative crumbles.
Wretchard has written about the power of “No,” but No itself is a nuanced thing that comes in many degrees. When the peasants come to break the manor walls are they coming merely to take the food that is hoarded within or are they coming to inflict a slow and painful vengeance of death upon the lord of the manor? “No” can manifest itself in infinite ways.
It may be the simple spoken word, the pronouncement of a prison sentence, or the very loud No that comes from the barrel of a gun aimed at someone’s head when that gun is fired.
We live in interesting times.
Marty #43
June 1935— Anglo-German Naval Agreement signed. This was a diplomatic
triumph for Hitler— it recognised Germany’s right to rearm, and revealed the
hollowness of the Stresa Front.
http://conservativepartyarchive.blogspot.com/2010/06/75-years-ago-todaythe-anglo-german.html
The Brits torpilled the Versailles treaty, alllowing Germany to rearm. Because of the Depression the British shipyards were looking for new opportunities that would bring some contracts, Germany was the ideal customer.
Idem, Samuel Hoare, in letting Musolini invading Ethiopa, was hoping that it would dismiss him from Germany
So in such a context, it would have been inopportune for France to invade Rheinland, as France policy was in line with London
Wretchard #36: The reason why the regular press will be at pains to minimize or edit these events into oblivion is precisely because each day something that’s not supposed to exist continues to survive amounts to an indictment of the ruling narrative.
Two interesting examples of the “editing”: first from Gerard at American Digest: “‘Tens’ of thousands rally while hundreds ‘pack’”: http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/enemies_foreign_domestic/tens_of_thousands_rally_w.php
And from Inside Cable News: “One would think the network with the “Best Political Team on Television” could tell the difference between Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin– not to mention spell Palin’s name right . . .”
(click to see the picture– unbelievable FAIL)
http://insidecablenews.wordpress.com/2010/08/28/the-hazards-of-livetv-25077/
…. China may soon be have the world’s biggest population of Christians ….
Or, unless some other place also has a rapidly exponentially growing quarter billion Christian population, (America, still?) quite likely already has.
And, at that, a passionately enthusiastic Christian population that already has missionaries and bishops in America and Australia and also in every one of Judeo-Christian/Western/Human Civilization’s already post-Christian states.
Including in every one of Euro-peon Neo-Soviet’s on and off-shore satellites.
Well, the UN is just a tea party for spineless, moral-less politicians. I mean they can’t even stop a genocide(read darfur), how can they ensure freedom of religion???????
Obama is an apostate. He even says he converted to Christianity. So, why no muslim hostility toward a convert in the most powerful position in the world? Could it be taqiayya? The permissible islamic denial of islam for the ‘greater’ goals of islam? Or are the so called stated goals of islam itself more despotic, belonging more to the most brutal than to the fundamentals of islam?
It’s hard to say. But something doesn’t add up in the bigger scheme of things as it’s been related to the rest of the world.
Bloomberg
Yen Rising Proves Catch-Up for Asia Exports at Traders Target 75 to Dollar
Japan’s currency needs to rise 47 percent to equal its strength in the mid-1990s based on the Westpac Real Effective Exchange Rate Trade Weighted yen index, which accounts for an inflation rate that’s been mostly negative since 1998. Deutsche Bank AG, the world’s biggest foreign-exchange trader, estimates on that same basis the yen would have to gain to 55 per dollar from 85.22 last week to match the record 79.75 in April 1995.
“In real terms, the yen is not really that strong compared to 1995,” said Eisuke Sakakibara, known as “Mr. Yen” for his efforts to influence exchange rates when he was Finance Minister from 1997-1999. “In 1995 we were in crisis. Now, given the fact that the U.S. recovery is faltering and the Japanese economy is doing relatively better, I think this situation is not what you call a crisis situation.”
Unlike 15 years ago, Japan is less reliant on the U.S. for trade. Asia, which has some of the world’s fastest growing economies, accounted for more than 50 percent of Japanese exports last year for the first time, while U.S.-bound shipments made up 16 percent, about half the level from a decade earlier, Ministry of Finance data show.
- The principle that people of all faiths are welcome in this country and that they will not be treated differently by their government is essential to who we are.
No, actually, it’s not.
What’s essential to who we are is to recognize the meaning of the First Amendment, and to understand when religion is used as a tool of geopolitical conquest, as Islam has been used for centuries and sharia is used today.
Reformation is not just a river in Saxony.
Until the defeat of the Papal States in 1870, the Church was no better (indeed, it was arguably worse) than the Muslims on the issue of allowing members to leave the faith.
In Bologna in 1858 a six-year old Jewish child named Edgardo Mortara was seized by papal police to be raised in the Church. The Inquisition had got wind that a housemaid had secretly baptized the boy and insisted that he be removed from his parents’ influence and raised Catholic.
Pope Pius IX took a personal interest in the case and no amount of protests from around the world could persuade him to return the kidnapped boy to his parents. “I couldn’t care less what the world thinks,” stated Pius IX.
Witnesses to the Pope’s playful public interaction with the boy suggested sexual impropriety. Perverted spiritually and otherwise, the Edgardo Mortara grew up to be one more “celibate” Roman priest.
The silver lining to the story is that worldwide revulsion to the Church’s behavior contributed greatly to the forcible annexation of most of the Pope’s territories and the unification of secular Italy.
The lesson to be drawn is that Muslim attitudes won’t change until Islam is militarily defeated.
Why does anyone care about Article 18, or the UN. The UN is a toothless organization that turns money into thin air.Without Western Europe the USA, Canada Australia and Japan it would consist of beggars in rags screaming for alms. A lot of people are trying to use logic and a reasonable argument to explain Islam. Perhaps a better approach is to use ignorance, beliefs, and fear. There is also no tolerance in Islam Christians and Jews are people of the Book and can live and practice their religion IF they pay a tax. All others must be converted or killed. There ifs also the issue of once Allah’s always Allah’s. which leaves Israel, Spain Italy and some other parts of Europe in a bind. Then you could consider Sunni vs. Shia or Arab Muslim vs. non-Arab Muslim. From my point of view when you talk about Islam I see plenty of bloodshed for all.
Sharia law, just like joining a gang. You can never quit.
David Levavi…
I entirely concur.
Shintoism was defeated only in fulsome battle.
Genocide upon the Japanese was not necessary, even though they professed to be self genocidal!
So too, it must come for islam.
It took battles such as Iwo Jima to convince the Japanese that they held NO martial moral superiority.
Lord only knows what it will take to liberate the islamists from themselves. But there will be blood. Islam will have it no other way. Period.
Delay and denial ramp up the body count very much in the manner of the head in the sand diplomacy of the 1930s.
The bottom line is that what is in operation here that is problematic is not an Islamic religion but an Islamic justice system. I have no problem with a place of muslim prayer but I do have a problem with a place of issuing judicial decisions for all Muslims to act on that have physical consequences. Unfortunately in Islam, both places are the same place.
The private judicial acts of issuing, promulgating, and executing Sharia fatwas (Islamic judicial judgments) to hurt and kill those who offend Islamic law have no 1st amendment protection. But the police do not monitor these private court systems to ensure that there is no problem and that Islamic religious courts operate in a similar space to Christian and Jewish private courts. Had we an organized system to do so, the 1st WTC bombing would never have taken place.
Yeah David we know, every measure to save the West has to be weighed with respect to how it is perceived by the Jews. They are history’s arbiters in these matters.
Who, pray, is the “we” you represent Ivan? I speak for myself and I am Jewish. Hence, I do inevitably weigh “every measure to save the West” through Jewish eyes. Make no apology for it either.
Instead of mumbling and grumbling in your beard, Ivan, you might demonstrate some courage and spell out the specifics of your complaint. Kidnapping and perverting children to your faith and sexuality okay with you, Ivan?
In any event, Napoleon III, the Catholic monarch who withdrew his protection of Pius IX saw things as this Jew does. So did the Nineteenth Century Protestant protesters in America whose anti-Papism needed little encouragement. So did the Catholic Piedmontese who attacked the Pope and stripped him of his power and property.
Just another example of Jewish money and influence to the creepy likes of you, I suppose, Ivan.
I’ll spell it out for you David. You pick out one dumb kidnapping out of everything that ever occured in the 19th century – cholera, child prostituition, wars, wrenching displacements caused by the industrial revolution – and made it your iconic comment on the Catholic Church. Who is being the obsessive here? Or again, when the WTC was destroyed did anyone think like Abe Foxman apparently did, given his comments on the Auschwitz nuns – my god this is so like the Catholic antisemites in the Poland. Every other historically informed person made the immediate visceral connection with Pearl Harbour, but not our friend Abe. The Catholic Church for all its flaws is the main repository for the historic memory of the Western tradition, you may not like it, but that is the way it is. And frankly accusations of antisemitism implied or otherwise are tiresome and meaningless; it is used with equal facility to encompass such disparate men from Hitler to Benedict XVI to Richard Burton(the explorer) and from Nicholas II to Solzhenitsyn. When everyone is an antisemite, no one is.
I believe it was David Warren of the Ottawa Citizen (http://davidwarrenonline.com/) who opined a few months ago that so long as Sharia exists, there are no Moslems.
Sharia demands death for apostasy. As long as this remains true, then any claim to “belief” in Islam is automatically suspect – it is as likely to be made out of fear as out of faith. Only when a Moslem is free to say he has rejected Islam will it be possible to accept any claim of Moslem faith as genuine.