The capital of Haiti, Port-Au-Prince has been heavily damaged by an Intensity 7 quake. The Navy will probably play a pivotal role in relief operations because they can move large numbers of hospital beds at 500 miles per day. The real race against time will be for those who are buried alive. The rickety nature of buildings in Haiti may work in the survivor’s favor. Easier to dig them out. Crowbars, reinforcing bars cut in 4 foot lengths and sharpened at the end — all these need to be pressed into service.
I had the misfortune of being in an 8 storey building about 150 miles from the epicenter of an intensity 7.7 quake and I can tell you for a fact that it taught me a great deal about human nature. I was in an open plan office with about 80 people in it. Three persons fell to the ground in complete hysterical panic. By that I mean kicking their feet in the air and writhing on the ground. Three persons went into a state of enhanced consciousness. By that I mean they were taking it all in and thinking. In less time than it takes to blink, the three had made eye contact with each other. The rest were in a state of shock and were literally open-mouthed. In about one or two seconds, the three persons in enhanced consciousness took charge of everything. The remaining seventy odd persons instinctively took their orders from the three and carried the panic stricken like hogs down the stairs.
I made two choices in a split second. One was to adjust my tone and voice to something I estimated would most carry authority; and the other of which was to tell the boys to head for the ground floor instead of the roof. Halfway down the stairs I was wondering whether the wager would come off. The real fear was being buried alive and the question was whether the building would hold up until we got down. As it transpired the worst was over and we all made it down. Nothing broke except the windows. And after about fifteen minutes several of us felt brave enough to go back up and do a sweep, in case someone else had been left behind.
But others were not so lucky.
In Baguio city, much nearer the epicenter, the buildings did not hold up. If the building I was in had been 100 miles closer to the quake, I doubt it would have stood it either. There was a seminar being held right outside of Camp John Hay, then a USAF recreational facility, and many participants did the “book” thing. They went under the tables. Most of them died, buried alive. The ones who bolted for the door lived. Many others died in at the Baguio Hyatt as the heavy concrete entombed them. The two lessons here are: if you want to survive a heavy quake, the best place for you to be is in a one story bamboo hut on flat land. Even if it collapses on you it is possible to kick your way out. Unless you’re saved by luck your first decision will either save your ass or be your last.
For years afterwards I kept a breaker bar under my bed and a pocket flashlight in my pocket. It also left me with a rule of thumb. In any disaster, about five to six percent of the population will stay calm. An equal number will panic. All the rest will wait for leadership. If the panic guys take charge, the panic will be universal. If the cooler heads take the lead, there’s a chance.
In Haiti a lot of people will be digging with crowbars tonight, by the light of flashlights or kerosene lamps. They’ll hear or imagine voices of those they love under the rubble. Remember them in your prayers or your charity tonight. And be glad it’s not you.
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I heard Maxine Waters talking on the news about the necessary effort to respond to the disaster and she made a plea to France and Canada to pitch in as well, and all I could think about was that was the first and only thing she has ever said that I agree with.
I was in Haiti in ~1980 as a medical student pseudo-medical missionary (I went with a group of real medical missionaries and did scut work; started IVs, took out sutures, acted as a surgical assistant).
There is no shortage of one story huts, but there are a few presumably well-constructed buildings such as the presidential palace, where the Duvaliers (Papa Doc and Baby Doc) had their headquarters. You can see from current raw news feeds that the presidential palace is more or less flattened. There will be a lot of dead people in the capital where the hotels and “decent” buildings are situated.
Remember them in your prayers or your charity tonight.
Several Hail Marys already said. Logging off now to make a rosary intention.
Just watched the Captain Sully / US Air special tonight that I had taped from last weekend. The passengers all agreed that there was no screaming and/or panic either before or after the plane ditched in the Hudson.
I also seem to recall the people who *did* make it out of the Twin Towers reported no screaming and/or panic in the midst of that inferno, with people very diligently and deliberately going about the task of trying to help each other escape. Nor was there any screaming or panic on Flight 93 (except for a report of one Yurpizoid who wanted to “negotiate” with the Muslim lunatics). Ditto the scene in the flaming Pentagon, although since they were mostly military, one might assume that emergency training might kick in more than on a passenger jet that’s “gonna be in the Hudson”.
Which makes me wonder (1) if scenes of disasters featuring screaming and panic-stricken people plunging headlong into walls are just beloved stereotypes of Hollywood movin’ pictures, and (2) who, exactly, were the two people Wretchard describes as going belly-up and eyes-back in terror, because we don’t seem to see those sorts of reactions in American disasters. How very un-John Wayne of them.
(And (3) why bother to save them when they are obviously on Darwin’s “too stupid to live” list?)
Thanks for sharing that story, Wretchard. I always thought it was best to dive under a desk. It makes more sense to head for an exit, no matter what floor you are on. I don’t really live near a fault line, but you never know.
I pray for the people of Haiti. I can’t imagine the terror they are going through.
I grew up in earthquake country and we were taught to get in a doorway.
I have not actually been to Port Au Prince but have flown in and out many times. There is nothing much to fall down, especially west of the airport.
Delay is probably as big a killer as actual panic or stampeding. This occurs when people don’t understand what is going on or are waiting for the situation to break in one direction or the other. The Station Night Club Fire
If you watch the video of the fire you can see that the cameraman recognizes the danger at around the 31 second mark and starts heading for the door. At the 45 second mark the apprehension of the danger becomes general. At 1:20 the first scream starts and it’s downhill from there. By that time the flames were already engulfing the tail of the crowd.
About 20 seconds of that lost critical time might have been usable if the crowd and leadership dynamics that night had been different. Maybe forty lives, who knows, might have been saved.
The 1989 Loma Prieta quake found me on a high school football field, coaching, about 45 minutes north of San Francisco. At the exact moment I felt myself getting light headed, the kids around me were saying “Coach, I feel sick…dizzy…” and I noticed that the football field was coming at us in waves. I saw the goal posts madly dancing, the same as the huge oak trees lining the road past our field. Cars and trucks were squealing and bouncing as the road likwise moved in waves…after a few minutes, we laughed it off. Then I thought, “Hmmm…what if this is not the epicenter?” Knowing that my folks were at Candlestick Park for the World Series, I ran to my car, turned the radio on, and listened as the announcer breathlessly went on about the Bay Bridge collapse, the huge fires burning in the Marina, the Cypress collapse…
My Father knew immediately what the consequences would most likely be, and raced to his firehouse via the backstreets, stopping only to drop my Mother off with her Aunt and Uncle in the City.
We have video of him fighting the fire in the Marina, and he stayed on duty four days in a row with not much (if any) sleep, searching the Marina for survivors, putting out fires, etc.
I’ve experienced quite a few quakes of different magnitudes, but that has been the topper to date.
Don’t get under anything, but rather, if you can’t get out into the wide open, get NEXT to something that will keep that ceiling or wall from crushing you, and allow you a survivable space. (Next to a table, a couch, etc.)
Has anyone heard reports of Puerto Rico? Haiti’s having heaps of big aftershocks but I don’t see any responses on the usgs did you feel it map from PR.
If you are able to get outside and are near multi-story buildings, keep your face covered because the air can fill with glass confetti shards. Pulling your coat over your head like a hood works. And watch for broken mains.
W, glad you survived. My mom is one of those steady people. I’ve seen her draw strength from within and work wonders under extreme stress. We’ve learned to mark the date because six months later she collapses for a day. I have found that I get the same adrenaline jag from a 1.2 as a 6.5, a surge of efficiency, then a long nap when we think the main cluster is over. My daughter didn’t realize we’ve been having a series of little quakes lately and she thought she was really sick because she kept losing her balance. I showed her the map at usgs dot com and she heaved a huge sigh of relief.
My aunt once lived in a really cheap rental house. The San Andreas ran through her back yard. The cousins and I had fun scrambling in and out of the big crack.
I missed the 1989 Loma Prieta quake because we lost the floor of our rental house in Little Loma earlier in 1989 and I moved to Montana. The world became a trampoline and we bounced and scrambled out of the house and up the hillside to huddle together by an ancient rock wall, then realized one of the girls was still asleep in bed(!). After the big quake, my dad had trouble tracking down Mom — she couldn’t get across the bridge so caught a ferry to her parents’ house and took care of them. The ferries were a godsend.
Wretchard,
It’s a safe bet that the Navy will be there. My son is a Seabee and I have followed the Navy very closely for the last eight years. They were a few hours behind the Australians at Banda Aceh and right behind Katrina – doctors not licensed in Louisiana were not allowed ashore so patients had to be heloed out to ships and Seabees were not allowed to help much because construction was reserved for unions. Isn’t it odd that our military can be first responders to any disaster anywhere in the world except at home? For interesting comments on the 2004 tsunami check out the “diplomad”. I assume his postings are still ou there in cyberspace. God help the Haitians!
Ned
I just checked and the Diplomad’s domain has expired. It was a fantastic site and I’m hoping that the Diplomad is a follower here on BC. He would certainly be a wonderful contributor.
Ned
In the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake in N. California, I was up in the Santa Cruz mountains about 6 miles from the epicenter. The next morning I found out-of-the-way little roads around the rock-slides blocking the main roads, and got back to the homeless shelter I ran in San Jose. It was fine. The CA building codes are good protection from earthquake damage, so the newer buildings usually don’t fall. It’s those older ones.
But those constant after-shocks! When one would wake me up, I would already be standing, braced, in a doorway. I’d literally get to the door before I was really awake. And be holding the standard emergency bag that never left my bedside, with it’s money, a very few essentials and slip-on sandals. The sandals were very important to keep from having to walk barefoot over any broken glass. The emergency bag was light enough to carry while running away. And to provide bare basics if it was all you had left. California does offer some good earthquake-prep training.
The after-shocks lasted 2-3 weeks and kept everyone nervous as cats. Some of them were pretty strong, enough to get you up and running.
In the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake in N. California, I was 6 miles from the epicenter, at a retreat in the Santa Cruz Mts. Early the next morning I found little side roads and got out around the rock slides to get back to the family homeless shelter in San Jose that I was running.
It was a new structure, and was OK – CA building codes mean that the newer buildings usually survive.
But the aftershocks lasted for weeks, with some strong enough to set you running. It made us nervous as cats. A building could look OK, then fall on the 3rd or 4th aftershock. During aftershocks, I would wake up already standing in a doorway, braced, not knowing how I got there from my bed. And holding the light emergency bag that never left my bedside. It had little but money and sandals – to keep from walking barefoot over any broken glass. It was light enough to carry while running.
Those people in Haiti are going through hell right now.
I will offer my small prayers for Haiti.
The Japanese are quite ….. nonchalant about the earth moving. When I asked why no one reacted very much I was told “Where can you go?” That is true, you cannot outrun an earthquake. Also, they are very accepting that if it your time then there is not much to do.
I was about 4 miles from the epicenter of the Northridge ‘Quake of 1994, living in a city called Chatsworth at the time. “State of enhanced consciousness” rings true to me, as I recall spending the bulk of the shaking actively trying to exit the house (unsuccesfully in the pitch black).
Humorously, both my housemates at the time admitted to basically lying cringing in their beds,screaming “quake”! Can’t say I issued many orders afterwards aside from “let’s get the hell out of the house”.
All in all, we suffered zero injuries and a lot of bric-a-brac scattered all over the house, and had to endure about 24 hours without running water or electricity. Not bad, and thank God for America’s status as a “developed” nation. I suspect things will be much more severe in poor haiti.
cellec,
thank God for America’s status as a “developed” nation
Design Margin counts. Haiti is different, not just poor in lacking money. It isn’t that they suffer from a reliance on government to solve their problems. Only people from the wealthy middle class of a developed nation still harbor the illusion that government can solve their social and economic problems. The poverty in Haiti is deeper. They have fundamentally failed to create and accumulate wealth to build in a design margin.
Basic training in how to respond in an emergency is part of basic training. This is one reason that I have called for 6 months of universal military training after the 17th birthday.
Every thirty or forty years we get a big quake in Seattle, last one was a 6.8 on Ash Wednesday in 2001. You’re supposed to get under your desk or run out of the building, I just walked. Light-industrial one-floor, brick walls, metal roof. Lots of squeaking and rattling, but nothing came down. Nobody died from the quake, but one person died of a heart-attack from the fear the quake generated. In a place like Haiti or China, there would have been hundreds of deaths. That’s about the worst we get, and we get it twice or thrice in a lifetime, tops. So I don’t have a quake phobia.
I was in the October 1989 California quake, on the top floor of a 5 story building at the Stanford Research Institute. In other quakes about the time you realize it’s an earthquake and people start to smile in recognition, the shaking stopped. With that one at that point it got worse.
I found that the Stand in a Doorway advice does not work if you have a room with 12 people and two doorways. I barely could get in arms reach of the doorway, and I had to hold onto the frame to be able to stand up. At that point I decided that getting under a table was a better idea, and then noticed the nearest table was right next to a large glass window. I moved toward another table, but before I could get there the shaking stopped. A 2 hour 10 mile drive to the hotel followed.
When the power came back on I observed a local TV station saying the following over and over:
1. Before you got to work call first and find out if they are open.
2. Before you go to a store or the mall or a movie, call first and find out of they are open.
3. Before you go to the airport to catch a plane, call first and find out if the flight is still scheduled.
4. Call us here at the station and let us know what is going on in your area.
5. And remember that this is an emergency so be sure to STAY OFF THE PHONE.
And yes LifeoftheMind, Design Margin counts. Using it up on stupid socialist schemes is not just a bad idea, it is evil.
# 4 Nahncee – I had noticed that same thing, having gone through a fairly big earthquake in California (San Fernando, 1971) and a couple of whoppers in Japan: very little screaming. Mostly, people got very quiet and got to a place to shelter in – a heavy desk,or into a doorway. No panic, just silent shock.
The only exception to hunkering down came during a quake at Misawa AB, where the military radio/television station building was about a hundred feet from a hundred and twenty foot tall water tower on very spindly legs. None of us wanted to be in a building full of powered-up electronic equipment if the tower crashed down in our direction, so we all ran for the door.
When we got outside, everyone began laughing because of the way all the cars in the parking-lot were still bouncing and bobbing up and down.
I was in a 3.2 magnitude quake in Arkansas in the mid-1970s. I was a child, and watching TV in my parents’ bedroom just before going to church. I remember looking away from the TV to see what I thought was the wall behind me gently rocking. Later, I found out there had been a very tiny earthquake. At some point the New Madrid Fault will let go again and with vigor, and there will be a lot of midwesterners and southerners who have more significant earthquake stories.
Worst thing that happened to me was falling off a ladder and breaking my wrist. I was in a building attached to the hospital. After the falling stopped, I thought, “Did I hit my head?” and since I could remember landing where I was I assumed no. Then I realized my left arm hurt, and my left wrist was warmer and more numb than it should have been, not to mention bent at a rather unappealing (to me) angle. At that point I received the endorphin/enkephalin Emergency Broadcast Message, which said, nonverbally but very clearly: ATTENTION! YOU HAVE BEEN SERIOUSLY INJURED. YOU HAVE 15-20 MINUTES TO GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER AND GET TO THE ER BEFORE YOU ARE IN SOME VERY DEEP DOO-DOO. THAT IS ALL. Okay. Now, the wrist — splint or no? No splint, so I wrapped my shirt around it.
I cradled my wrist and stood up, noticed I was bleeding from my wrist, and told the two people where were there (they had heard me fall), “I need a towel or I’ll bleed all over the place, and I need a wheelchair because I don’t think I can walk to the ER.” As they ran after those items, I sat back down on the floor, laid on my back and elevated my knees because I didn’t want to pass out and fall yet again. Later, the lady that pushed the wheelchair said, “It was so wierd. You didn’t cry at all, you were so calm.” Within the allotted 15 minutes I was in the ER, with an IV started and some morphine on the way. My wrist did hurt, later. But in a pinch, and with some built-in protective neurochemistry, that could be compartmentalized while I ran the checklist and figured out what to do.
I don’t think I’m any kind of expert survivor. I think I had a huge dose of some of the most potent opiates in the world in my bloodstream as well as massive doses of epinephrine and norepinephrine, and it kept me from freaking out. I hope I will do as well in the next earthquake or tornado (far more common in Texas), but who’s to say. I guess there are people who pick ‘panic’ in the choices of fight vs. flight, that may be their reaction to sympathetic nervous system reaction. I think it does help to wargame these kinds of things in your mind, and have a plan for what to do in the first 30 seconds of common disasters, major and minor. Plans are very comforting even if they are not initially correct, and having something you have decided to do is better than casting about for what to do if you have no ideas.
RWE@18
Design Margin counts. Using it up on stupid socialist schemes is not just a bad idea, it is evil
IMHO, this is one of the best arguments I have ever read against the “Never waste a crisis” bunch.
Wretchard, re: “enhanced conciousness”. Have you noticed that it is very seldom the “smartest people in the room” that exhibit this trait.
RWE and programmer,
While I agree with your points about Socialism and waste my point was that there is a deeper issue about culture. Something has to explain why a place like Haiti is so poor and has no Design Margin to waste. Socialism is at best a symptom and really does not apply in this case.
Before the 6.9 Santa Cruz quake (Loma Prieta?) I had no real sense of how terrifying quakes could be, and it wasn’t even close to a Great quake! (8.0 or higher). We’d all seen the Mexico City mega-disaster a few years before, but I think we all thought ‘that can’t happen here.’ Many Japanese said they thought the same thing until the Kobe quake.
I was in Berkeley at the time, I think about 80-90 mi north of the ’89 epicenter, but it tossed me in the air and lasted forever, building intensity and seeming downright furious. I still can’t fathom the fury of a 7.7 or an 8… I didn’t trust gravity for several months afterwards, but was lucky to avoid most of the aftermath since I’d already accepted a job and so moved to Hollywood exactly one week later. That was Oct. 30, 1989. At the Halloween parades and parties I was amazed to find hundreds of revellers dressed up as quake victims covered in blood, with some as the earthquake itself festooned with collapsed bridges, shattered buildings, tiny bloody bodies, etc. A different kind of aftershock.
Back in the early 80’s a friend of mine bought an airplane from the Haitian Air Force. It was a WWII vintage T-6 and had proved a bit too challenging for them; they had switched to Cessnas.
The T-6 needed some work to get it ready to fly and he found the HAF people to be very nice and helpful. The colonel who ran the unit wore a uniform, but the sleeves of his shirt were nearly gone, leaving the cuffs and not much else.
The day he departed he gave the colonel $100 or so to thank them for all the help. The man looked shocked and refused to take it. My friend insisted that he take the money, telling him to divide it up amongst his men. Not the normal situation in a poor Third World Country.
I don’t know what went wrong in Haiti, but it started with the French importing a great many slaves, and I don’t know if the problem was that they imposed the French culture of the time or that they failed to do so. Note that the Dominican Republic on the same island is not nearly as bad off, although we did have to invade it at one time as well.
When I started a masters course in Systems Management at the Univ of So Calif, I looked at it as a square filler. But the professor in the very first course got my attention when he asked “What is wealth? How do you define it? Wealth is not money, which has no intrinsic value. Wealth traditionally is defined as things such as land, raw materials, manpower. But note that the Third World countries have most of that in the world and they are considered to be poor. What they lack is not resources but good management.”
When I lived in the Wash DC area I noticed an interesting phenomenon. If a group of blacks were walking together, two would walk side by side, three would walk side by side, four would walk side by side, and so on, until they took up the whole sidewalk and there was no room for anyone else. No one wanted to walk in the back, even if it was just based on physical reality and not social position. Some cultures appear to be antithetical to leadership, and therefore to management and even simple good sense.
These Japanese have about 3 mild earthquakes a week, so it can not surprise them at all. Most people in more stable lands lack this experience, that is why every earth movement is a horror to them. Also, they used to live in one-storey bamboo houses with paper windows instead of glass panes, exactly for this reason.
There is one thing at Haiti to wreak society completely: voodoo cult. It is not indigeneous, it was imported from Dagomea with slaves. Every country where it took root is doomed. By its social consequencies, it is really, really evil.
Sergey, I don’t think you meant it that way, but a 7.0 earthquake is not mild. ’89 SF earthquake was first listed as a 7.0, later downgraded to a 6.9. It killed more than 60 people. It would have been thousands if not for the miracle of the Bay Area’s World Series, (Oakland vs SF) which began right at the moment the quake struck. Upon finishing the National Anthem they announced “PLAY BALL!” and the TVs went dark. Normally the freeway leading to the Bay Bridge would have been congested with tens of thousands of commuters. Most of the deaths came from those miles of pancaked freeway. Unbelievably most of us were home to watch the opening game at that moment. Kobe was, I believe, a 7.1 or 7.2, and it killed more than 5000 Japanese.
Having been through a serious earthquake as a kid (Alaska, 1964, 9.2), It’s one of my few vivid memories of that period (father was USAF stationed at Elmendorf AFB).
Wood frame house, on a concrete slab foundation for ftw.
The Roman Catholic archbishop of Port-au-Prince died in the quake:
According to Fox News, “The body of Msgr. Joseph Serge Miot, 65, was found under the rubble of the archdiocese, and may be one of only hundreds of victims trapped in the ruins of the building.”
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/
Prayers for the rescue workers as well as the victims– they will have a terrible ordeal ahead of them.
In my time as an instructor our department hired a guy who was an expert at computerized adaptive testing. I sat through a number of his presentations and one thing remains, that shares a theme here. The first actions determine the whole course of the test as similar to your first decisions in a crisis affect your outcome.
Get the first question or two correct you are tracked to do well miss them and you are tracked to not do well. So my colleague’s assertion was the challenge to creating an adaptive test was to choose the first questions with a lot of attention to make sure the difficulty level is proper.
Every decision you make can be thought of as a first decision. Fortunately, most decisions placed in front of us are not immediate life or death ones.
W.
I have experienced the ‘enhanced conciousness’ effect myself, more than once. In some cases life threatening events were unfolding at light speed. I was/ am fortunate enough to be one of those whose mind focus’ in such events.
The feeling is indescribable. It is what I imagine adrenalin junkies pursue.
I regret that I cannot control its onset directly, I would make many fewer bad decisions.
#22 & 27
The attached link describes a plausible scientific hypothesis for the situation in places like Haiti, Mexico and Detroit. However, I’m sure many, even in the BC commentariat, find it repulsively un-PC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations
Re the endemic poverty question, can’t help but note that the UN building in Port au Prince was five storeys tall. bad time for such a comment, but…well, it’s a small country with a concomitant limited number of talented potential entrepreneurs, and nothing like a five storey cargo cult HQ to quench those sparks.
Good writeup, wretchard, both on Haiti and your own experiences.
I’ve been through most of the LA quakes since 1971 – I missed (!) the Sylmar quake. The 1994 Northridge (1992 riots, 1994 earthquake …) was pretty nice, I think another .2 and the nails in my apartment building would have given up. Sixty seconds after the first shake, I believe everyone in the building and most in the neighborhood were standing in the street. I rode out the shaking itself in a doorway.
I can barely imagine the damage there must be in Haiti now, with no building standards, few emergency services. Of course, even without the quake I’m sure Haiti could soak up all available emergency supplies. Just have to shake one’s head.
And of course Obambus was front and center on this one, as he was not on the pantybomber, but even here Obambus projects this bored and exhausted vibe these days, like anything requiring action is simply beneath him. Perhaps it is beginning to dawn on him that it is part of any executive position, poor bastidge.
Your numbers are interesting, and the fact that you could spy through a room in a quake to find the few you were looking for. So many of those 95% imagine they are in some other category, at least until we are tested.
Tales of forgotten earthquakes. In my bad days I was sleeping in a Murphy bed in a so called studio on the boardwalk in Venice Beach when the Sylmar earthquake hit 30 miles away. In my drugged haze I scarcely moved. That night large waves crashed ashore. It was the early ’70′s and as Mr. Dylan said “Revolution was in the air”. I returned shortly to rural New York and my town was flooded by Hurricane Camille. It all felt positively apocalyptic.
I feel for Haiti, one of the most wretched places on the face of the earth. Makes you realize how blessed we are to live in the USA.
When living in San Jose, I experienced a number of what I would call “smaller” quakes and the “swarms” that come as aftershocks in the same area.
But one was interesting, to say the least. In our bedroom, we had an old “Cowboy” or frontier bowl with a pitcher in it. Both being empty and noisy when we closed a dresser drawer too strongly, that sound of the clattering of the ceramic pitcher and bowl (I think) was the catalyst that woke me to an amazing experience.
I awoke “immediately” – no rubbing the sleep out of my eyes – at about 2:30 am, and sat straight up in bed with my eyes wide open.
I did what Wretchard said some do – I began analyzing. Perhaps too stupid to be afraid, I experienced approximately three or four fairly violent shocks or waves. Additionally, my memory recorded a rumbling sound that was differnt from the clatter of the ceramic bowl and pitcher, which was of course present, and different from the noise the house made as it moved.
What struck me the most, however, was the pattern of the waves that I felt. Each was distictive and each embodied the same characteristics. The wave seemed to creshendo, hit, and then drop off immediately. All waves had the same characteristic and felt most like the crack of a whip. It seemed like that wave form could very easily overcome most building structures, especially in a 7.7 level quake.
The worst I ever experienced in the Bay Area was about a 6.1, but I was usually outside when the larger ones hit, or better, airborne. The one I described above was approximately a 5.6 Richter.
Kieran — Can you tell more details of th 9.2? The photos I have seen of up-ended streets, or landscapes which look more like ocean waves are all unbeievable, unfathomable. How old were you at the time?
Kieran — Can you tell more details of the 9.2 in Alaska? The photos I have seen of up-ended streets, and landscapes which look more like ocean waves than land are all unbeievable, unfathomable. How old were you at the time?
I grew up in southern California and took earthquakes for granted – what we call the tea cup rattlers. The 1994 southern California earthquake was the first serious quake I experienced. Wisdom at the time said the doorway was the safest place to be due to support structures. Due to changes in building codes, wisdom now says to “drop, cover and hold” under a table, desk, etc.
W’s “enhanced consciousness” is the best phrase I’ve heard for the sensation. Time does funny things during an earthquake – it can feel like 10 minutes from start to finish, and scientists will say it lasted about six seconds. To make a long story short, in 1994, I levitated out of a dead sleep to the doorway, 3500 books went flying, dishes smashed, and furniture marched. When it was over, we immediately moved outside, joining up with neighbors, who fell into patterns described by W – some hysterical, most quiet and looking for direction, and a few leaders. We organized search parties, supplies, listened to the radio and helped one another. People were fantastic. I am now in the Pacific Northwest. I teach the Community Emergency Response Team (CERT) course that trains civilians for disasters. It is tailored to each area’s risk assessment and is an eight week course (3 hours per week). I heartily recommend it – it teaches fire suppression, light search and rescue, emergency kit preparation, triage, and educates everyone on the particular risks their area faces. God help the people of Haiti.
Well W, I for one am damn glad you made it to go on to other things including starting and running this great site.
7.7 must have been a day to wear the brown pants. I was in the 6.6 Sylmar, CA quake in ’71. I was living in Playa del Rey sitting on the balcony of my condo overlooking the Ballona Wetlands’ and Marina del Rey. I can tell you it took me about two seconds to get outside from the third floor.
The entire block was filled with fellow beach volleyball players and locals …. I just can’t fathom a 7.7….great job.
I just hope the larger-every-day bulge in the lake floor at Yellowstone and increase seismic activity in the Yellowstone caldera don’t portend a blast. Volcanologists say it’s overdue. Of course if it blows we’re all doomed.
LTM #22
Something has to explain why a place like Haiti is so poor and has no Design Margin to waste. Socialism is at best a symptom and really does not apply in this case.
It has to do with tropical heat and low IQ.
YELLOWSTONE
Not all super volcanoes have been found, but one of the largest is in Yellowstone Park, USA. Scientists searching for the caldera in the park could not see it because it was so huge – only when satellite images were taken did the scale of the caldera become apparent – the whole park, 85km by 45km, is one massive reservoir of magma . The idyll landscape of Yellowstone could soon explode with devastating consequences.
When will it next erupt?
Scientist have discovered that the ground in Yellowstone if 74cm higher than in was in 1923 – indicating a massive swelling underneath the park. The reservoir is filling with magma at an alarming rate. The volcano erupts with a near-clockwork cycle of every 600,000 years. The last eruption was more than 640,000 years ago – we are overdue for annihilation .
Rest easy and have a nice day.
Good grief –drudge has a headline –500,000 dead –
Ashland, symbol ASH is up just a point on slightly heavier than average volume. Guess they haven’t seen Drudge out in the world yet.
Worth buying? Catholicism, the main religion … does it permit mass graves?
BTW, ASH makes plastic coffins.
There is an effect just the opposite to enchanced consciosness: total lack of consciosness combined with very quick and precise life-saving action at the face of mortal danger. It is also combined with unbelivable physical strength, like that of maniacal psychotic, and complete lack of memories about all these developments after return to normal consciosness. It saved my life more than once, and I know about it only from other witnesses. Is it just me or somebody else experience this or heard about it?
“It has to do with tropical heat and low IQ.”
You got to look at the difference between Haiti and the Dominican Republic. The difference is staggering.
IQ is dependent in part on pre and post natal nutrition.
A bad start is never overcome.
If an entire culture is dirt-poor, in a Third World sense, we’re going to see a lot of artifically-induced low IQ.
Once you crack that, as the Dom Rep did at whatever time, you will have a permanent advantage over a culture which has not.
If the 500,000 dead number on Drudge is true then according to the wiki this would be the 3rd worst earthquake in history in terms of human lives lost and the 3rd or 4th worst natural disaster ever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_natural_disasters_by_death_toll#Earthquakes
Mein Gott ein Himmel
Sergey: Sorry, my experiences include a clarity of thought and recall of incredible detail. It actually seems as if the the limits of my peripheral vision expand. I had, on one occaison a fellow who lifted a heavy piece of steel, but he was relatively strong to start with. He did need a small verbal push to get going but worked on his own thereafter.
For societal collapse poverty and malnitrition are not defining features: most of its history humankind existed on the brink of starvation. But lack of trust is really deadly. This leads to so awful society disfunction that abject poverty results, even when natural resources are rich. There is nothing more destructive for social cohesion as institutionalized paranoia, which is the best description of voodoo practice. It is real curse. I know that nominaly Haiti is a Christian country, but it is so entrenched in primordial superstitions! Now it is struck by disaster of Hiroshima scale; Lisbon catastrophe is what comes to mind.
Habu, Mammoth Mountain in California is another semi-active volcano that may be due to blow on a 100,000 year clock, I’m too lazy to google the figures but IIRC while not quite Yellowstone size seems capable of covering Los Angeles 300 miles away with a foot or more of ash, probably even more so for Las Vegas, and do no good at all for the thousands of tourists visiting it at any time, bathing in the hot springs and all between ski runs or summer hikes. Had a number of 5.x and I think 6.x quakes there a few years ago, I believe it’s been mostly quiet more recently.
Uh-oh, CO2 emissions, too!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammoth_Mountain
TWO times the Banda Ache Tsunami
(re the poverty and lack of trust, the DuValier dynasty –with its secret police –had to’ve been the western hemisphere’s worst civic experience since being a captured guest at an Aztec church service)
Natural disasters like this are so humbling. We human beings think we are so powerful & intelligent, but all the earth has to do is twitch and we’re reminded how small we really are. Let’s hope this earthquake brings the best out in us.
Wretchard, re: “enhanced conciousness”. Have you noticed that it is very seldom the “smartest people in the room” that exhibit this trait.
The other guy was a guy called Joel and the other, I believe was a man whose job was as a driver. Two of the three who went to pieces were fairly senior staffers (in their early 30s) who often went to pretty scary places in Mindanao as part of their duties.
I’ve often thought that hysteria and courage were sometime things. In my own experience, I can remember times when I was ridiculously brave and other times when I was absolutely, humiliatingly yellow. There are some dangers to which I am strangely indifferent, and others which I unreasoningly dread. So if there’s a next time an earthquake strikes, there’s no guarantee I won’t the one paralyzed with indecision or gibbering with fear.
Well, I would say it was just some real bad juju if I didn’t believe in plate tectonics and continential drift.
Now I’m pretty sure they’ll drop below Rwanda in GDP (PPP).
Now we’re all focused on the half million ( perhaps) dead but Stalin, Mao, and Hitler purposely killed hundreds of millions in combined numbers. Today we tolerate Iran’s threats to finish off the Jews and some don’t even flinch. In fact obama is threatening the Jews ! What a POS.
62. wretchard:
“there’s no guarantee I won’t the one paralyzed with indecision or gibbering with fear.”
I don’t see you as a gibberer .. maybe a transient moment of wobbly, but gibberer…never.
One disaster that can’t be blamed on global warming.
Yes, let’s remember Haiti in our prayers and charity.
Habu,
I’m pretty sure they’ll drop below Rwanda in GDP (PPP)
Maybe and maybe not. Let us say that one week ago the population was 10,000,000 with a per capita income of $1,300. All from the wiki so don’t yell at me. If half a million are lost and they are disproportionately from the poorest and most vulnerable members of society then the average wealth available for the survivors goes up. In addition if just as a WAG $5 billion gets spent in and around Haiti over the next 6 months by international relief efforts. That would work out to a 30% increase in the net wealth per capita for the survivors. Just as the Black Death of the 14th century increased the available capital per capita for the survivors the earthquake could increase the net wealth of surviving Haitians. Even a tenth of that level of relief aid could have a dramatic effect. It is also possible to consume or steal hundreds of millions of dollars and produce no visible change. The evidence for that is the Palestinians.
To be blogged under the title “Wealth Effects of Disaster.”
#62 Wretchard: the thing about earthquakes is they strike without warning and stop (albeit the ongoing aftershocks). Other situations you have time to imagine much worse than what you may be confronting – thus, the wobblies to outright paralization. It’s the imagination that will get you.
I’ve had a number of such moments on both sides of the yellow fence.
A couple of them involve bar fights. We were in a crowded tavern and a fight broke out next to my group. My brother’s legs were taken out and immediately I started looking for someone to kick, no thoughts just pure reaction. The fight was over very quickly before I could locate someone to kick and the offending parties were removed from the place. I got really wound on that one and could not sleep for a long long time after it.
Similarly a buddy got picked on in a bar, but that time I refused to at least let the jerks know my buddy had terminal brain cancer and that is why he had a “skinhead” hairstyle. That one haunts me to this day, a regular of the bar told me exactly what happened and since he knew my buddy’s situation I would have had backing (the owners & workers at the establishment knew my buddy’s problem too).
One time I recall being a hero. Was swimming around about Dubai. The fiance (who is now my wife) was off playing in the water with a friend. I heard her yell out for me so I started to walk to them, thinking it was a simple summons. It was no simple summons, they were in mortal danger.
I was walking to them and a couple steps from them the bottom gave away I went in belly deep water to nearly over my head — with a good surf pounding in. Calmly, I got to them, they were anything but calm but fortunately for the three of us I could dig my feet into the bottom and watch the waves and get a breath when the trough passed.
We held onto each other and I pulled them into the shoreline. By the time I got us all to a depth were we were all safe the lifeguards were on the way.
Other people did die on the beach that day.
I am thankful for two things #1.) I did not know the true nature of the predicament going into it #2.) That state of enhanced consciousness that focused me. Of course there are more things to be thankful for (no rip current, the surf probably allowed me to the breaths I needed, etc) but those are two big ones.
Earthquakes and seismic design for nukes are my bread and butter. I’m considered something of an expert in my design office.
Two things matter – design/construction and placement.
US building codes for general construction as well as for critical infrastructure like nuclear power plants are very good and getting better. The guidance to NOT go outside is based on stuff falling off a building right where the exits are. Go through a door and get conked on the head. A doorway in a wood frame building reinforced with a header and extra 2x4s supporting it so it is some extra protection.
So see what our building codes really rely on, look at a new home under construction. At the joints you’ll see metal reinforcement plates. Home Depot has a whole row of them. The joints are the weak spot in any design so this metal bracing is the right idea although we might be overdoing it.
Commercial and industrial buildings are also built to improved building codes. The San Fernando earthquake showed that metal joints in commercial buildings sometimes failed so that point has been beefed up in new codes.
Remember the admonition in the Bible about “build your house on rock, and not on sand.”? Where you put your building has a big influence on the violence of shaking that it will experience. Build something on solid rock with a good connection between foundation and rock and the stresses are relatively limited. Put your building on mud or wet soil and the shaking will be multiplied since the seismic waves slow in such material and so increase in amplitude.
Of course, if the fault trace runs THROUGH your building, there is nothing to be done since one side will go North and the other South. In California, we designated known fault trace areas as no-build zones. Some structures, like the BART tunnel through the Hayward fault have to have special highly engineered designs to cope.
Lastly, an old building may be the safest. Why? Because it has been tested. An older building in the SF Bay Area has likely seen four or five major earthquakes. If it hasn’t failed yet, it’s probability of failure next time is low.
So, for buildings in US earthquake zones, do get under a table or a doorway and don’t run outside. Elsewhere with poor or non-existent seismic codes (New Madrid?), the same advice applies.
BTW, did you know you can estimate your distance from the epicenter easily? It is the difference in arrival times of the P waves and the S waves. I’ve gotten pretty good at it from my 30+ years in the Bay Area.
O/T..permission requested
BC’ers….the last five or so comments back on the thread “Exo-atmospheric” are of a greater impact to us than anything I can currently think of (save nuclear war). And obama promised us he’d build it up….
I recommmend a peek and hopefully W can do a thread on it.
From pics I have seen the smaller buildings and shanties look like they went through a grinder. Entire slum neighborhoods looked like a debris pile from a demolition project.
Block and concrete buildings disintigrated for lack of reinforcing and poor quality of the concrete.
There is no reinforcing steel for two reasons #1 cost and #2 concrete made with beach sand is salty and corodes the steel. coroding steel expands cracking the concrete. solutions to this problem are expensive (epoxy coated steel or non-ferris reinforcing).
A/Mouse #53
this source assigns IQ’s http://hypnosis.home.netcom.com/iq_vs_religiosity.htm
Haiti 72
Dominican Rep. 75
Guatemala 79
USA 98
Scotland 108
I agree that the D/R shines over the Haitian disaster. Colder temperatures almost always produce advanced civilizations.
rab @71
108 sounds a bit high for anywhere’s average, although Scotland has produced a phenomenal number of great scientists from a tiny population. I looked through the list on the link and I didn’t see any IQ datum for Scotland. Where’d you get that number?
OK, I found it out of alphabetical order, but it’s 104 for Scotland. Damned high, and the Scots have plenty of grit as well. Thank the Lord for our 18th century immigrants from Ulster.
Third try to get this past the filter.
I came across this at Fernham(http://fernham.blogspot.com/2010/01/forgetting-haiti.html), she writes(about Haiti):
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My college friend, the brilliant Annie Seaton (now a Dean at Bard College) suggests that this catastrophe—the earthquake and all the things (poverty, deforestation, buildings without re-bar in the concrete, political instability, racism) that make this earthquake so horrifying—is a result of the Enlightenment. I think that maybe she’s right. Maybe, as she suggests, we should all read Susan Buck-Morss on Hegel and Haiti
(http://www.amazon.com/Hegel-Haiti-Universal-History-Illuminations/dp/082295978X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263412779&sr=1-1) and, while we pray for the victims, the survivors and all who help them, we should also try to think our way to a more just world, one in which Haiti would not always and forever suffer.
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Now supposing that the Enlightenment has been described as “The freedom to use one’s own intelligence” Immanuel Kant , and that it has been tied to democracy, freedom and reason. Is she arguing that the Haitians are not capable, and should have remained under the benevolent leadership of the French. This seems a strange assertion for someone who seems to be a liberal.
I would like to ask her this on her blog but I was wondering if someone would let me know if I am missing something.
I do think if the death toll is as great as many fear that the US should via the UN or unilaterally declare the place a protectorate and abolish it’s legal system and government then start over with a common law system, and after many years they should be given Haiti back to it’s people, hopefully a better place.
I once toured a Ticonderoga-class, AEGIS-equipped cruiser that had just come back from a mission to intercept Haitian refugees at sea and return them to Haiti.
The irony of using a multi-billion dollar, cutting edge, weapon system to combat an invasion by some of the poorest people on Earth seemed to escaped the officers I spoke with.
Sorry, but the US has and should continue to quarantine the place. No foreign power can remake the Haitian society into something we would recognize as civilization – only Haitians can do that.
43. Morton Doodslag: (Question on Alaskan Earthquake).
I was 5 years old. I remember watching the glass birds walk off a shelf as I waited for my tv shows (and my anger at my shows being interrupted, well at that age what do you expect). My dad was on the highway home from base (got through about an hour late, but was ok). We had a small frame house off-base that came through just fine.
One of the landmark new buildings downtown was a 2 or 3 story Sears store, that basically collapsed.
At the distance Anchorage was at it was about an 8.2 (I think I remember).
Riddle @ 72
<>
I agree totally. I think most of these immigrants had originally arrived from Scotland because of the Highland Clearances.
They were clearing land in Scotland for sheep farming.
“the US should via the UN or unilaterally declare the place a protectorate and abolish it’s legal system and government then start over with a common law system, and after many years they should be given Haiti back to it’s people, hopefully a better place.”
They had a name for that way back when. It was called colonialism. Apparently it is better for the inhabitants to suffer on their own than to live under the patronage of a white master. Same applies to most of Africa.
Culture counts, even within a single country. One of my friends was a member of the Philippine Airlines Rescue and Recovery team. He and his boys had the job of getting to a crash site and rescuing or recovering, as the case may have been.
He had two incidents, the 1987 crash in Mountain province (http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=06261987®=RP-C1015&airline=Philippine+Airlines) and one in Iligan City (http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_details.cgi?date=12131987®=EI-BTJ&airline=Philippine+Airlines) that same year.
The tribesmen in Mountain Province are known for their industry and honesty (BTW, they played a key logistical role in helping Krueger defeat Yamashita) while the folks south of Iligan have a less than salutary reputation. By the time he got to the Mountain province crash, the tribesmen had already tried to rescue the victims. One was carried piggyback on these durable mountain folks’s backs until the road, but died.
The Iligan crash was bizarre. They couldn’t find the wreck for a time despite the fact that it landed near some towns. The locals professed ignorance of its whereabouts. When they finally found the airplane, they saw everybody was looted.
Then the locals came forward and asked him if they could “help” for a fee. My acquaintance told them “no thanks, we’ll carry them out ourselves if we have to take all week doing it”.
Culture matters. The main thing about culture, so far as I can tell, is that it is organic, with some outside influences. The Mountain Province folk (northern Luzon) were proverbially hard working from time immemorial. They’re just like that. While the other group have always been like that too.
The uplanders regarded many of the lowlanders as “foe” and were uplanders precisely because they had been pushed up by the waves of subsequent migration. So while it is very comforting to think of the “Filipino people” as one undifferentiated mass, there’s a heck of a difference between an Ilocano and a Maranaw.
One Muslim rebel resolutely refused to speak to a government negotiator in Tagalog claiming he did not want to “speak an oppressor’s language” and insisted on continuing the discourse in English. History is kind of interesting up close. Nothing is as simple as the tropes make it seem.
My college friend… suggests that this catastrophe—the earthquake and all the things (poverty, deforestation, buildings without re-bar in the concrete, political instability, racism) that make this earthquake so horrifying—is a result of the Enlightenment.
pomo claptrap
… unless the claim is that the Enlightenment made such wimps out of us that we see horrors in the primitive, in the everyday, in the state of nature. That, I could get behind. The Enlightenment has failed indeed when it brings forth such gibbering beasts as the brilliant Annie Seaton (now a Dean at Bard College).
HABU: Of course if it blows we’re all doomed.
Im too far east to be bothered by a local event. Good luck. Hope you enjoyed the climate.
I do need to evacuate No. 1 Son, tho.
What in the hell are 40,000 Americans doing in Haiti? They arent doing marketing surveys for cereal. No oil there. Somebody’s making shirts ’cause I got one or two. Something else is happening.
For all the saints, who from their labors rest,
Who Thee by faith before the world confessed,
Thy Name, O Jesus, be forever blessed.
Alleluia, Alleluia!
Thou wast their Rock, their Fortress and their Might;
Thou, Lord, their Captain in the well fought fight;
Thou, in the darkness drear, their one true Light.
Alleluia, Alleluia!
Rev 14 v13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Not by works alone, but by your light shining before men.
If you’re in a situation where you feel the panic at your edges, there are ways to keep the gibbering at bay. I have had times when I had to perform life-saving first aid for a period of many hours. After the initial burst of adrenaline wears off, I get a flutter of panic, knowing I cannot stay awake and keep clearing airways, etc., so I take a deep breath and pray and in moments feel restored. I have learned to practice this so the next time I need to draw on my inner strength, I can, and quickly.
As for uncanny strength, I had that once, but it didn’t last quite long enough. I saved the person’s life but then dropped her. I had the willpower but my body was weak — my elbow tore. A few more seconds would have helped immensely, but at least I kept her from drowning and was able to do CPR once she was lying down. The strength was part and parcel of the running to rescue, figuring out how, and simply doing what I must. It was very difficult, but for about 15 seconds I was able to lift well beyond my physical capacity.
Darren’s comment at #20 about wargaming in your mind? It really is a good idea. Read novels about challenging situations, too. In one of the interviews of Schuringa he says he instantly knew that he needed to stop the terrorist. It fit into a scenario that has become part of a modern parable. We’ve all put ourselves in the shoes of the passengers of Flight 93, and now Flight 293. What would you do?
Habu: Well, I would say it was just some real bad juju if I didn’t believe in plate tectonics and continential drift.
Pat Robertson blames it on Haiti’s pact with the Devil, but it will be a “blessing in disguise” if the Haitians finally see the error of their ways, convert from Catholicism and join the $700 Club. As someone noted above, Drudge says there’s maybe 500,000 dead in Haiti. That makes me feel like I did on 9-11, with a heavy feeling in the pit of my stomach. Three million people out of the total of nine million in Haiti might need medical treatment right now, and there’s no way to get it to them. And pretty soon disease will rear its ugly head. So Pat Robertson is right about one thing, this is a catastrophe of Biblical proportions.
Pat Robertson has done more to damage (the perception of) Christianity, especially among the Chattering Classes, than anyone else in the past 25 years.
Pat Robertson was probably thinking about the legend of Baron Samedi, who the story goes keeps the dead folks safely in the ground in return for the Haitians to do him favors whenever someone invokes him –or somesuch. remember Pat R. is no spring chicken if you get the drift.
Re blaming the Enlightenment for leaving such enclaves as the Haitians behind, in a way that’s precisely true, tho in a way opposite the modern liberal would think. think of that five story UN bldng, think of Clinton busting out Junior DeValier and installing the far more crooked if less hereditary royalist Aristede. Search [ Maurice Strong Haiti ] –the tranzis have been down there for a long time, pushing their programs in front of whatever they’re really doing, and making sure that their seed corn –desperately needy people –is protected from well, enlightenment.
Whatever is wrong, it’s not the individual Haitian –it takes guts and gumption to sail across the gulf of mexico on a forklift pallette to try to find a better life –and as well, Haitians that get to this country and manage to stay have established a fine enough record of citizenship and accomplishment to have had several different commentators remark on same today.
This has been an interesting thread to read, with all the personal recollections of earthquakes. I live in Pennsylvania and have never experienced one.
So I don’t really have anything to add, except that I read somewhere that there is no place on Earth that is immune to earthquakes. There could be an undiscovered fault deep underground that only slips once in 1000 years, but when it goes, look out.
Charleston, SC had a major earthquake in 1886.
Excerpt:
The 1886 earthquake is a heavily studied example of an intraplate earthquake. The earthquake is believed to have occurred on faults formed during the break-up of Pangea. Similar faults are found all along the east coast of North America. It is thought that such ancient faults remain active from forces exerted on them by present-day motions of the North American Plate. The exact mechanisms of intraplate earthquakes are a subject of much ongoing research.
Translation: They don’t really know much about these kinds of faults, or when they’re going to blow.
Buddy:
Or the invasion from the North noted above.
Luke 13:1-5
1Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2013:1-5&version=NIV;ESV;NASB;NIRV
Buddy, isn’t it funny that we owe to the Haitians that the french lanquage remains one of the 3 (?) official languages in UN !
Among our “west Indies coloniess” Haiti was one who was the most developped, where black population make revolution to get the same rights as the french population got in France, which our revolutionnaires accorded them, but that Napoleon fought back, and finally let the country accessed to its independance, within paying a big amount of money. Since then, the country never recovered its wealthiness, quarrels ensued, Haitians immigrated to Louisiane and elsewhere where they found more serenity.
and came the tyrannic powers like Duvalier who eradicated what was left to the peasants, the ability to make their own earning with pigs husbandry and agriculture.
I visited Port-au-Prince in the seventies, I was chocked to see how poor and corrupted they were, comparing to the other Antilles islands, even to Carthagena in Colombia. Young teenagers girls were following me and my future hubby, telling him, [come with me, we are much better than "her"]
It’s a bit like Jamaica when it became independant, gangs, mafia businesses make insecurity.
Now, our still Antilles departments had the opportunity to vote last sunday for their autonomy, and they chose to remain “french”, because of the money they get from us within the diverse allocations.
I don’t think that these islands in our nowadays society could fare alone, as blacks aren’t people who deal with finance and or enterprises in a wide scale, their economy is based on artefacts and agriculture, tourism is developped by whites, otherwise, not many people would want to go there.
Tim,
declare the place a protectorate and abolish it’s legal system and government
You have a good argument. There are places that lack the essential attributes of sovereignty and pretending that they are nation-states and our peers is an expensive farce that demeans the law and imperils all who rely on it. Places like Haiti and Somalia are not countries with the same legal capacity as Australia, the Netherlands, India or Uruguay. We should have placed Iraq and Afghanistan in an acknowledged path of tutelage and cultural transformation before restoring their status as international actors. We should be explicit about this. Fail to establish the rule of law and permit your population to be self supporting to the extent that you become a threat to the health safety and stability of the outside world then you will be placed in a Trusteeship. If you host or enable terrorist attacks on people outside of your borders or threaten vital strategic interests, and yes that means oil, then we will come into your country and to the extent that you are a strategic threat then you can become a strategic target. If you do not want to face those risks then do not provoke a crisis. We are remarkably peaceful if left alone.
To be blogged under the title “For Protectorates.”
LTM 91,
Doug Casey back in the 90′s had a plan for Haiti
http://www.escapeartist.com/efam27/Haiti.html
He also gives a quick overview of the economy, that probably has not changed much except that drug trafficking is a much bigger business today.
He also mentions issues about property ownership and a crisis of the commons in Haiti.
**************************
This promise got his attention. “Tell me more,” he said, which is the usual reaction. My plan basically contemplates the 100% elimination of all taxes and regulations; these things serve absolutely no useful purpose in any Third World country except to create sinecures for parasites. That part is simple, and obvious. The twist is to take all government assets and put them initially into one large corporation to facilitate distributing 70% of the shares, pro rata, to every citizen now living, 15% in trust for the next generation to be born over the next 21 years, 10% for the folks who allow it to happen, and 5% to be sold in the world’s capital markets. The money raised thereby would mainly be used to promote the fact the country is open for business in a way no country in the world has ever been. And the people, not the government, would be the direct beneficiaries.
There’s much, much more to it. But, in essence, it’s possible to transform a hellhole like Haiti into the kind of place you’d want to move to, no matter where you now live, regardless of other considerations. If there were ever a true free market country, the place would be so overrun with rich people that workers now making $1 a day would be in demand at $15 an hour (what I have to pay my maid in Aspen—in cash, thank you). Could it happen? ………..
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The Individual Haitian is precisely what is wrong. Superstition, disdain for education, literacy, veneration and worship of the Big Man. All producing a society that takes a quake that would produce 500 dead in Taiwan or South Korea (themselves only 50 years removed from devastation) into a quake killing half a million.
I favor an emergency response to do what can be done to save people. It is the only humane thing. But permanent refugee status for millions (or even thousands) of Haitian in the US in time of recession? No.
Nor do I favor extended aid, or some sort of regency/protectorate whatever. It is time to acknowledge truths that cannot be spoken due to PC but nevertheless are true. Haitians are no more capable of governing themselves humanely (let alone wisely) than 3 year old children can be left unsupervised with dangerous weapons. Yet, it is time for the world to simply leave Haitians to their fate. And when they complain about their poverty, their ills, their horrible state, simply tell them the truth. They themselves created their Duvaliers, their Aristedes, their Papa Docs. And it is up to them to fix it, or not and live with the consequence.
Yes America can and should do what it can. For a few weeks perhaps. But that is it.
Life: the people of Iraq or Afghanistan are no more capable of approaching the rule of law of say, Argentina, Brazil, or Paraguay (itself a low standard) than I am of flying around like Superman. We could be in either place for a thousand years and that would not change. They are after all, Iraqis and Afghans, the one a deeply tribal, corrupt, and polygamous people, and the other even worse (in that respect). We cannot make them un-muslim, non-polygamous, non-tribal, non-superstitious, or non-Big Man. That is who they are. We can create regimes that are at least not hostile to us, offer us advantages, and make explicit examples of our enemies (the important thing) after 35 years of passive, cringing avoidance of retaliation for attacks.
That’s OK. It’s time to admit things. Most of the world, excluding North America, Western Europe, Japan, Australia/New Zealand, and South Korea is just different. No more capable of creating or living in a cooperative, rule-of-law, stable, peaceful society than Stone Age tribesman are of making a living trading derivatives in Zurich I-banks.
That doesn’t mean they are not human, or can’t be better than what they are. Paraguay is no paradise but is better than Iraq. Iraq is dump, but is better than Afghanistan. Afghanistan is a tribal hell-hole, but people there are more well-off and possess more human dignity than Haiti. Afghanistan won’t be anything other than a tribal hell-hole, for generations. But it can at least be a more peaceful, and less of a threat, tribal hell-hole, that provides a deterrent example to would be repeats of 9/11, and a means of leverage on Pakistan. Afghanistan could become, for example, Mali or Niger or Mauritania. Those are hell-holes too. But at least the Taliban does not blast everyone apart village by village.
That’s something.
About those east coast earthquakes, I was outside Washington, DC once when one struck. I didn’t think such was possible before it happened. The building I was in jolted, and there was a loud crash. Felt like somebody had dropped a 10-ton weight on it. It turned out the epicenter was 100 miles away, near Richmond, VA. Luckily it was brief and didn’t do much damage anywhere, but that was simply a tremendous amount of energy unleashed out of the blue. Looking at the scenes from Haiti, it’s hard to wrap your head around such awesome forces at play here. Gives one pause.
A terrible earthquake struck Lisbon, Portugal around the beginning of the Enlightenment and it has been cited as a major factor in the nascent crisis of belief in Europe. In Candide, Voltaire famously used the heartless randomness of the tragedy in his arguments against a benevolent Creator. I wonder how this one will be interpreted in Haiti. Pat Robertson’s comments seem mad to cultured Western ears, but I bet you they resonate in Haiti. Google up HAVIDEC, a quasi-political religious movement in Haiti formed in the aftermath of Aristide whose self-confessed goal “to take Haiti back from Satan.” The truth is, since Aristide embraced voodoo the old Christianity vs. Satanism tensions have re-awoken of late, if they ever went away to begin with. Aristide even re-confirmed the original Dutty Boukman voodoo ritual of 1791, the one in which Satan was allegedly enlisted in the revolutionary cause against the French.
What a spectacular and heart-wrenching disaster. Haiti, the lush tropical paradise, the once “Pearl of the Antilles”, reduced to a surreal moonscape, its desperate people on their knees, and now this catastrophe. How will the Haitian people wrap their heads around this?
There is a political earth quake beginning to shake in Massachusetts as the seat of the multi decade sponsor of the health care bill Ted Kennedy is up for grabs.
In a week republican Scott Brown has gone from being 10 points down to a statistical dead heat according to two going on three polls– with the vote coming up next tueday.
A loss in Massachusetts the bluest of the blue states would totally undermine da dems. It looks like even the breath this possibility is making them nervous.
I’ve read there are brown signs all over central and eastern Massachusetts. no coakley signs.
http://nats101.geo.arizona.edu/greateq.html
GIANT EARTHQUAKES OF THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST
snip——————
The danger of a very large earthquake striking the coast between northern California and British Columbia proves much greater than suspected
Few people question the possibility of a devastating earthquake once again hitting Los Angeles or San Francisco. The state of Alaska has also suffered some serious shaking, including, in 1964, one of the world’s largest earthquakes. Until recently, however, many residents believed that the intervening territory from northernmost California to southern British Columbia (an area sometimes referred to as Cascadia) was a safer place to live. Seismologists had recognized that Vancouver and Seattle were not exactly sheltered–sizable earthquakes buffeted the region in 1946, 1949 and 1965–but no truly disastrous events had ever damaged these cities.
Yet views have changed drastically. Ten years ago Thomas H. Heaton of the U.S. Geological Survey and Garry C. Rogers of the Geological Survey of Canada began warning that giant earthquakes could indeed strike this seemingly quieter stretch of coast. Initially, many scientists questioned the seriousness of the threat, but most doubters now realize that such earthquakes have happened in the past and will do so again.
snip——————
I took this article to read while camping on the beach near La Push on the Olympic Peninsula’s wild coast.
I met a geologist there and asked him if it was true that a giant earthquake and tsunami could hit.
He said that not only was it true but that strain gauges said we were overdue.
I asked him what they suggested for all the people around the coast to do. He said that they suggested that people should carry 3 days food and water in their cars because all these huge trees would fall down and there would be no services, probably for at least a week.
Also there would be a tsunami. I asked what they suggested for the people living on the coast. He said that they recommended that people carry 10 feet of rope with them.
What use would that be, I asked.
You could tie yourself to a tree.
But you said the tsunami was going to knock down all the trees.
You should tie yourself to the seaward side of the tree.
So…..Now I am tied to a tree, (a 200 ft tree) rolling around in the surf after an 80ft tsunami with lots of other trees. That sounds….dangerous.
We estimate that tying yourself to a tree would raise the probability of your survival from nil to 10%
I spent a delightful night on the beach below 200ft bluffs.
Here a picture of a tree one might be attached to.
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/1c/84/ea/wild-beach.jpg
http://www.livescience.com/environment/050103_cascadia_tsunami.html
Great article titled:
Tsunami-Generating Earthquake Near U.S. Possibly Imminent
nice graphics too.
……..Major studies on the Cascadia fault zone have identified 19 to 21 major earthquake events during the past 10,000 years. During at least 17 of these events, the entire fault zone probably ruptured at once, causing an earthquake around magnitude 9 and major tsunamis,………….
The Cascadia subduction zone, a 680-mile fault that runs 50 miles off the coast of the Pacific Northwest — from Cape Mendocino in California to Vancouver Island in southern British Columbia — has experienced a cluster of four massive earthquakes during the past 1,600 years. Scientists are trying to figure out if it is about to undergo a massive shift one more time before entering a quiescent period.
“People need to know it could happen,” said U.S. Geological Survey geologist Brian Atwater.
The historical record for this zone, which has the longest recorded data about its earthquakes of any major fault in the world, shows that earthquakes occur in clusters of up to five events, with an average time interval of 300 years between quakes, said Chris Goldfinger, a marine geologist at Oregon State University. Goldfinger and other scientists have been studying this subduction zone for many years.
The two most recent quakes on this fault occurred in the year 1700 (a magnitude 9 event) and approximately the year 1500. It has now been 305 years since the last event. So is the Cascadia subduction zone finished for now or on the brink of event number five?
“We know quite a bit about the periodicity of this fault zone and what to expect,” he said. “But the key point we don’t know is whether the current cluster of earthquake activity is over yet, or does it have another event left in it.”
Got to go with whiskey on this one, the most sober and reasoned opinion I’ve heard regarding Haiti, Afghanistan etc. in quite some time. We can continue to shovel “Coals To Newcastle” but it won’t change a damn thing. It would be interesting to see dual powerhouses Russia and China get their own “Little Haiti’s” but we all know that ain’t gonna happen. New York and Miami taxpayers get ready, your population is set to increase soon. Once the dust has cleared and the new palace is built, “The Comedians” can retake the stage
Thank God for the U.S. military. They are on their way, in force and, ready to help. The Mormons and the Red Cross will be right behind them, if they aren’t there already.
The UN will send a representative in a couple weeks, once someone gets a proper hotel open again.
Whiskey has a point. It would seem the cause for the horrific loss of life in Haiti is just the horrendous conditions of Haiti, and even then it’s hard to understand how a half a million people could die, unless there were additional problems of soil liquefaction, slides or fire. Lightweight wood single story structures like many of the typical Haitian house or shanty should have been performed better in a 7.0 unless they were multistory, or just really poorly thrown together which I suppose is likely in those conditions.
Heavy, unreinforced masonry buildings are the real killers in earthquakes. The vertical supports crumble and the buildings pancake. The heavy weight of the structure is accelerated with much more force than a light wood structure. Even modern, reinforced concrete structures in a long quake, can fail badly because the concrete on the vertical supports can crack and can be thrown off or “spall”, reducing the compressive strength of the support needed to support the structures to the point of failure or collapse. That is why California freeway bridges have metal “jackets” around columns to avoid that problem, and why freeway bridges collapsed in the Loma Pietra ( SF), Northridge ( LA), and Osaka quakes.
Running outside tall buildings in a quake can be dangerous because of falling debris like Whitehall said. But each situation is different. If you think the possibility of collapse is greater than falling debris, go for it. In big quakes, you may not have a choice. I know friends who lived close to the epicenter of the Northridge quake,( which had a ground acceleration apparently similar to an 8.0 at the epicenter), that were thrown to floor of their second story home by the violent shaking and couldn’t get up until the shaking was over.
One of most devastating potential quake sites in the US is actually New York City, where some seismologists think a quake as large as 6.0 could occur. There are in that city, untold thousands of poorly reinforced high multistory masonry buildings with the potential to collapse on one hand and many really tall buildings with lots of glass, along with poorly attached masonry, to shatter and fall on the other. Rescue crews would have a huge problem getting around that city in the case of a big quake.
I would question the 500,000 dead figure based on the tendency for someone to overestimate and everyone else’s tendency to quote them. It was posited that there were 10,000 dead in New Orleans due to Katrina. The truth was 1000 dead. Based on that, I’d expect that the 500,000 dead figure would be down-graded to around 50,000 dead. Just a thought.
In a practical sense, Whiskey’s prescription for dealing with Haiti is on target. But isn’t it worth seeking causal mechanisms that run from the genetically-and-environmentally-determined low IQ average to the political structures that lead to a dysfunctional society? For example, does a society with a mean IQ below 80 fall prey to Big Manism because the intelligence difference between the masses and the elite is 30-50 points, and that gap allows the elite too many degrees of freedom in their quest for wealth? Whereas in a society with a mean IQ of 102, IQ of the elite is more like 20-30 points above the average, and thus they have not such an overwhelming advantage in the political game of life.
I would like to see some data on the variance of IQ in places like Haiti versus Germany, Japan, Scotland. I suspect the variance is greater in the basketcase societies.
Whiskey, an exremely cogent analysis.
IQ is extremely overrated, especially in politics where it seems to count for next to nothing. I (and I’m sure all of you) have known an endless number of highly intelligent people of whom the old farmer would say “He just ain’t got no damn sense.”
In fact you’ve all seen very intelligent people use the most supposedly intelligent reasons to talk themselves into the most incredibly stupid actions. While someone with not much IQ but a big heaping pile of common sense (and most important of all, self restraint and the respect for the rights of others) will generally achieve great success while their more “intelligent” peers wonder how they did it.
My belief is that Haiti (and impoverished countries like it) have established systems in which there is no respect on an institutional level for the rights of anyone, and in that system the “intelligent” people find themselves either continually leaving or being groomed for predatory positions in which they can spend their lives living well by stripping the lives and property of everyone who isn’t quite as clever as them.
wws
Of course, you are free to believe that IQ has little correlation with material success, but the data, e.g., The Bell Curve, leaves that belief unsupported.
Your suggestion that the problem starts with a political system geared to rapacity begs my question? I am asking why the political system of low IQ societies is always of that sort.
As far as intelligent people leaving Haiti, that surely happens, but in the 19th century non-African immigrants entered Haiti and became much of the elite, bring their higher IQ’s with them.
OK, so we have almost 2 Billion that are overwhelmed by Islam, another billion or so that are conquered by Socialism, a billion or so that have reverted to Marxism and then a few million that succumbed to Voodoo. And of course the millions in America that have lost their minds in worshiping THE ONE, not even counting those that have immersed themselves in Paulism and Laroosism.
While all of that is going on you have a few million in America and even in [e]urope that believe in the American Constitution and our Founder’s ideas and ideals.
(Don’t get hung up in the numbers…you know what I’m trying to get across)
Seems kinda lopsided to me. So who has the most weapons and ammo? And is it going to come down to that?
Will the most powerful and uncontrollable outside force determine who the winner and losers are?
There is an old, old saying. “Don’t mess with Mother Nature”, or “Let us a little permit Nature to take her own way; she better understands her own affairs than we.” ~Michel de Montaigne
Until it is settled or decided, I vote to:
Buy More Ammo..!
Papa Ray
82) Sylvia,
“Darren’s comment at #20 about wargaming in your mind? It really is a good idea.”
You should always be thinking “what will I do if …”
When you get your seat on a plane, count how many rows to the exits, so that you could find it if it’s dark.
When you’re driving, pay attention to the lanes next to you, so that you know whether you can move over in a hurry if you need to.
We made our kids practice getting to the various exits in our house, blindfolded and crawling, so that they would be able to do it in case of a fire. (Luckily we haven’t had to use that training yet.)
etc
I was reading on this thread last night and recall that some were talking about the state of their mind when presented with a crisis or terrible event.
I would say from personal experience that anyone’s mental state is going to be unknown until the event takes place.
And even then after many such events that person’s reaction can change. I’ve seen it happen many times.
The most that I have seen, is in the event that where people are trying to kill you and in how that individual acts or I should say reacts. You can receive training for this event but until it is for real you will not know if the training did any good for that individual.
Then also, you can not gauge the individuals continued reaction to continued threats upon his life. It may be that the individual gains better control, better defense, better reactions or at some point, his/her condition deteriorates with each successive event.
I’ve seen and experienced both.
Papa Ray
The UN will send a representative in a couple weeks, once someone gets a proper hotel open again.
LOL, too true.
Meanwhile, specialist first-responder teams from SoCal and probably all over the country are there now.
80. herb
You’re correct, you won’t need to evacuate if Yellowstone blows …. you need to do a bit more reading on super volcano damage.
You might then want to bend over and kiss your tush goodbye, cause fella you’re not escaping the fallout. No one will…but hey , just educate yourself a bit more and then be sassy.
I have seen repeated claims that Bawney Fwank has the highest IQ of any member of Congress. I have also seen repeated claims that Ronald Reagan was a dunce.
I think that makes the case about the political value of IQ as much as anything. IQ may favorably influence a persons attempt to manipulate the existing system, but it has nothing to do with creating a “good” system. That depends on respect for personal rights and cultural values, and that is a moral decision, not an intellectual one. There has always been an endless supply of extremely intelligent criminals, and the most intelligent always find a way to seize and hold power.
Once a bad culture is established, it sucks everything into it. I also suggest that a wicked, rapacious culture is by far the norm for mankind, and is to be expected as the default situation. It is western civilisation and especially it’s American incarnation that is valuable and unique in the human experience.
Another factor – except for the English speaking countries, most nations descended from colonial administrations are disasters, Haiti being the worst, but all being bad. The French and the Spanish especially seem to have left a legacy of offical incompetence and dysfunction wherever they went.
Don’t forget – until we got rid of our Kings, our culture believed in the “Strong Man” too.
W, I would, as I am sure a great many BC’ers would enjoy your thoughts on the discussion taking place for the last 10-15 comments back on thread “Exo-atmospheric”.
It is a discussion of more than simply passing interest to many of us.
Thank you.
Ne cede malis, or “do not yield to misfortune”
I’m sure the great Haitian nation will rebuild to their former status with minimum tin and cardboard if we continue to provide our lachrymose prayers. Brave people they are to have managed to hold on to both voodoo and Catholicism.
Also, one must think that at some point cannabalism will appear.
If I seem unmoved by their misfortune just take a minute to reflect on what I have stated. I just get a tad bit concerned over keeping that nation afloat with billions of our fiat money decade after decade….and to what end?
obama must be the luckiest man alive.
If Haiti isn’t a shovel ready project for our 17% unemployed then none exists.
He can also incorporate the Tonton Macoutes to maintain the proper balance of raping, pillaging and terror. No doubt he’ll have a Czar of Haiti soon to study Haitian methods of internal population control.
Habu, agree on 113. How much do we want to borrow from the Chinese in order to donate it to the Haitians?
Am also interested in seeing how much the other wealthy nations like China, Saudi, Russia, etc… donate to the Haitian relief cause. I’ll take the under.
Habu, Steeple: agreed. This is just and international version of our national “war on poverty”. If they want out of that mess bad enough then they should be hauling themselves up by the bootstraps. DVD’s and Hot Pockets didn’t exactly sprout out of the sod here in the U.S., it took work and strife and trial and error to produce it.
Habu wrote:
“obama must be the luckiest man alive.”
Watch him blow it.
I propose that his response to this incident should finally answer our year long question: Is Obama some demonically inspired evil genius sent to take over this country and transform into something wicked? Or is he just a hopelessly overrated incompetent who got promoted to his office due to the power of wishful thinking by 53% of the voters, and is a man who has no idea of what he is going to do tomorrow, much less any grand plan for the future?
Is he really just Chauncy Gardener after all, and a mean spirited version at that?
Of course a demonic genius *would* use this tragedy as the perfect storm to burnish his own image. But I predict that Obama will see little use for Haitians since his limited thought patterns will see no direct way that a bunch of poor Haitians can help him – they don’t vote in this fall’s elections, after all. So he’s going to sit in Washington, make a few speeches, and play pattycake with Reid and Pelosi, just like before. What good that will be done in Haiti will be done by the US Military who will respond with heroism and class, as they always do.
They will succeed in doing a lot of good, but it will be in spite of Obama, not because of him.
If I were Obama, I would have been standing on the deck of the first US Aircraft Carrier to get there, I would have suspended all other business, and I would have directed at least the first two weeks of reconstruction personally. Anyone who knows the power of direct leadership would do the same, and reap great political rewards from doing so.
I believe that type of thinking is so far removed from Obama’s thought patterns that it may as well be an alien language to him. I believe that deep down he truly has no idea what he is doing and never will.
Some comments based on my two weeks in Haiti in 2002.
We were on a mission trip to help on some construction projects for a family of native pastors there (several brothers and one sister). They were working hard on being self sufficient and expanding into other parts of the country. They were smart, hardworking, and were not corrupt in any way I could see. They were also trying very hard to instill these traits in their congregations. Needless to say, they were a small (but expanding) island in an ocean of the opposite. IMHO the work they were doing is the only kind that will transform Haiti. They were like cultural and spiritual missionaries to their own country.
The comments on the problems of the voodoo culture are very much to the point. Many/most of their congregants were ex-voodoo, and it wasn’t until they had gotten free of that, that there was any sign of them prospering in any way.
The buildings I saw (a few miles East of the capital) did have rebar. I know because I could see it – which means it was poorly placed. The aggregate (gravel) looked like some kind of chalky white rock which could not have added much strength, like it is supposed to. I could see chunks of old busted up cinder-block type masonry in some of the upper concrete floors, which had to be poor filler and reducing the strength of them. Bottom line: signs of poor construction technique which would not hold up well in an earthquake.
So what I saw was that a culture can be changed, but it looks like very hard work and you better be in it for the long haul – think multi-generational. They were on their fourth generation (their Dad started it and their grandchildren were just starting school) and feeling like they were just starting to get some momentum going.
Although I haven’t validated it from experience, Lt. Col Dave Grossman’s On Combat talks a lot about the physiological effects (and after-effects) of high-stress situations. It seems that knowing what to expect can be very useful when you find yourself in such a situation.
Another factor – except for the English speaking countries, most nations descended from colonial administrations are disasters, Haiti being the worst, but all being bad. The French and the Spanish especially seem to have left a legacy of offical incompetence and dysfunction wherever they went.
Don’t forget – until we got rid of our Kings, our culture believed in the “Strong Man” too.
The Spanish attempted to populate Texas with European blood starting in 1682. By 1821 there were at most 7800 Mexicans with any degree of European ancestry living in Texas. Stephen F Austin started moving English speaking settlers in to Texas in 1821 and by 1834 there were 34,000 English speaking people living there. The English speakers quintupled what the Spanish had accomplished in 140 years in rougly 13 years. The great historian TR Fehrenbach hypothesizes that the Spanish couldln’t colonize Texas because their culture insisted on setting up a government (through the church) first and then bringing in settlers. Meanwhile, the culture that the Americans inherited from England was to welcome all the settlers that were willing to endure the hardship, and then form the churches and govt from scratch when ever the need arose. I think he’s right, and I think there are lessons in there for our current generation. Declining societies wait on the govt to take hold. Ascending societies go make things happen and then form a limited govt to manage affairs after the fact.
cris,
“It seems that knowing what to expect can be very useful when you find yourself in such a situation.”
That’s the whole point of training. Even if what is occurring is not exactly what has been practiced, it will get people past the important, initial seconds, and have them in the mindset to be taking action, rather than panicking or waiting for someone else to take charge.
uh, Haiti was independant since 1806, can’t see a colonial influence since then, though Jamaica got its independance since 1962, can’t see things went better under anglo-saxons domination too, just in a few decades, and in 2 centuries ?
I’m sure that everybody here knows that the criminals are going to take advantage of this disaster, and you and other Americans.
I’ve already received two emails requesting donations.
You know where to send any money. Don’t send it unless you verify where it is going and to whom.
Papa Ray
MarieClaude, Mexico and most of South America have been independant since 1820-21 (excepting the brief unpleasantness with Maximillian) and they’ve never outgrown the colonial legacy, either.
Mercantilist colonial administrations were set up to shake the locals down for all they had and ship it back to the homeland. That may be the original sin behind the persistent failure.
Habu, So you lived in Playa del Rey home from Phoenix work in ’71. I lived in Venice home from grunt duty. I got busted in Venice by an LAPD black and white driven by a guy from my battalion (2/14th, 25th Division). Strange days, small world. I met another guy ,same time , riding with a biker gang also from my unit at the Beach House Bar in Venice.
Okay, I’ve been stewing over how to phrase this without sounding pretentious. I have tutored low-IQ kids, but I’ve never experienced being in a low-IQ society. The average IQ of my friends is at least in the 130′s and probably closer to the 150′s. I know a few of my friends are above 190. I know how we operate as a community and those 130′s really are slow compared to the 170′s.
When my daughter was ill she tested 30 points lower than when she was healthy. I know I don’t alway operate at full speed — a migraine crops my score, for instance.
So, if you have a society with an average IQ of 80, and they are homeless and hungry and scared, it’s going to be like herding sick sheep?
How does the Dom Rep keep the Haitians on their side of the line?
107/Ex. Love the blindfold idea. Will have some fun with that here.
wws, except that our ties were really cut with Haiti, as independance didn’t happen pacifically
Best thing to do with 500,000 dead bloating exploding bodies in the tropical heat and spreading diseases we can’t even pronounce is to simply burn the place to the ground.
Cholera will show up soon followed by perhaps bubonic plague … torch it and start over.
125. trangbang68
yeah it was a fabulous place. Great for R&R and it’s value had the thrust of a Saturn V. There were 10-12 of us who worked worldwide on a moments notice so all the guys pitched in for the payment..I lived for free. Venice was a freak show but the bars up near Manhattan Beach, Portola, Redondo Beach were so full of boomers in their 20′s seeking the right balance between total debauchery and pure hedonism …. interesting days bro.
Wretchard #78: “Culture counts, even within a single country.”
Your story of the air crashes brings to mind one told by a member of USAF. Back in the 90’s he was on a humanitarian mission to Africa and an aircraft crashed just after takeoff. He and others ran to help and while trying to rescue the survivors he felt something odd. An African was trying to pick his pocket.
Habu #114:
Obama will no doubt soon announce that all 9 million Haitians will be employed as administrative staff for the new Universal Health Care he wishes to impose on us. Unfortunately disadvantaged minorities gravitate toward those kinds of jobs like flies to honey or substances even more aromatic.
And they won’t even have to move here because it can all be handled by phone. Which is another advantage, because the Friends of Bill ended up in control of Haiti’s phone system after our invasion in 1994.
The Spanish attempted to populate Texas with European blood starting in 1682. By 1821 there were at most 7800 Mexicans with any degree of European ancestry living in Texas. Stephen F Austin started moving English speaking settlers in to Texas in 1821 and by 1834 there were 34,000 English speaking people living there. The English speakers quintupled what the Spanish had accomplished in 140 years in rougly 13 years. The great historian TR Fehrenbach hypothesizes that the Spanish couldln’t colonize Texas because their culture insisted on setting up a government (through the church) first and then bringing in settlers.
pd @ 120:
The other wildcard in the Texas/Southwest equation was the Comanche Confederation that included the Apache, Navajo, and the Yaqi. This was a powerful indigenous presence that did not recognize Spanish or Mexican sovereignty. Mexico always found its northern portion problematic to govern or even to hang on to. The Anglo sttlers were invited in by Antonio De Santa Ana with the provision that they become Mexican citizens, and also have the more prominent Anglos marry into elite Tejano families. One could consider this either very clever or very desperate on Mexico’s part, but in the end it spelled doom for Mexico’s governance of N. Mexico. Even California and the rest of the Southwest aspired to independence from Mexico without Anglo influence. This is ironic, considering ‘La Raza’s’ bogus claim on ‘Azatlan.’
“9 million Haitians will be employed as administrative staff for the new Universal Health Care ”
No, I think they already have been committed to work for the TSA.
I don’t live in earthquake country what we get is Tornadoes. I sleep with an 18″ Bowie with a 3 ” wide heavy blade and a powerful little flashlight beside the bed.
I figure come tornado or bear I ought to be prepared to hack my way out of the house or the bear.
I may be jumping into a fire storm here, but, regarding ex-colonial nations: I spent some considerable time in East Africa, SW Asia (Pak west to Horn of Africa) and the Caribean. My take is that there is a very large differece in previous colonies based on the original ‘mother country’.
The differences are two. The first is the basic view of what colonies were to provide the home country. The second is the base line culture of the mother country.
Here goes, (Sorry MC). English colonizers were, primarily, interested in making fortunes, returning to Blighty as part of an aristocracy and receiving a check in the mail every month. As a result, the minimum number of Brits were actually in the colonies (North America being the glowing exception!) The goal was to have one or two middle class managers in situ, and living well, with the rest done by locals. This necessarily meant teaching as much as possible to the locals.
The French seemed to want to use colonies as places to export excess population from Metropolitan France, i.e. Algeria. This meant that many middle management jobs were filled by Europeans. Not much left for native population but stoop labor.
Italy just never figured out what to do.
Germany came in to late to do much.
Spain wanted the precious metals and was not interested in much else. Even today, Buenos Aires is over 40% Italian. Mexico, except for the 100 families, is Aztec/ Mayan. Very little was passed down by ruling elite to el indios.
Finally, from worst to best, Italian, Spanish and French latin culture had (past tense) a different view of property, wealth and the right of ordinary people to accumulate same. Most of the elite presence in latin based colonies, even today, was/ is elite Europeans on royal grants. Anglo based colonies tended to allow, at some level, both locals and energetic middle and lower class Europeans opportunties to do well. This affected the quality of the actual immigrant.
Of course this is a broad generalization, based on my own observation and reading, but I have never been able to refute it and have even verified it with natives of the various places.
(PS this is being written at the office. No points requested for composition)
131. Annoy Mouse:
“9 million Haitians will be employed as administrative staff for the new Universal Health Care ”
No, I think they already have been committed to work for the TSA .
By George I’ve think you’ve got it. Voodoo telepathic patdown or VTP will be the new protocol run from a NASA Assembly Building size call center. Free Jamaican Ganja and congressional level health care. Gangsta baby, Chi-town style.
HEP-T #132:
Back in January of 1998 a series of powerful tornadoes hit central Florida at around 0100 hours. One of the targets was a trailer park, wherein lived a man in his trailer who had a fear of drowning. The trailer park was next to a lake, and as a precaution due to his phobia the man wore a life jacket to bed each night.
A tornado ripped through the trailer park that night, tore up the man’s trailer, tossed him in the air – and he landed in the lake, with his life vest on, unscathed.
“but I’ve never experienced being in a low-IQ society.”
If this doesn’t describe Obama’s America, I don’t know what does.
but hopefully it’s something like a nationwide stroke and the patient will recover its wits soon.
oh, my. Reckon there’s a backstory?
From the Guardian this is a link from the URL above. One can’t help but think of the Massachusetts election –and heck damn near everything going on in politics and economy everywhere –and wonder at an element of the honest right finding so much common ground with an element of the honest left.
michaelhoskins
you may-be right on some generalities, but that is eliminating what we brought there, building solid infrastructures, while the British empire only thought of making businesses, ie exemple Lebanon is still ruling its government with our 3rd constitution, see our cities in Maghreb, you couldn’t differentie them from Marseille, in sub Sahara countries, we built bridges, airports, all it is useful for a country to evolve (my step father built Konakry harbour and airport, Abidjan bidge and airport (my hubby’s prime youth up to seven years old was there, he had a private “boy” to look after him, and it’s one of his best souvenirs) The populations rapports were more close with ours’ than the natives were with the Brits’.
Well, anyway, you still see Brit’s former colonies saying that they would have preferred the French, and French former colonies saying that they would have prefered the Brits
I knew that this thread title kept reminding me of something:
Ted Nugent, Live: Intensities (In Ten Cities)
it’s a good one.
For Haiti, in tent cities.
Man goes to a psychiatrist and says, “Doc you’ve got to help me. Some days I dream that I am a wigwam and some days I dream that I am a tepee.” Herr Doktor Professor Alienist Shrinkmeister sucks on his pipe and replies, “That is your problem, you are two tents.”
Thank you folks thank you, we’ll be here all week. Be kind to your Server.