A reader (thanks!) sent me a link to a CNN article by Martha Brockenbrough, author of Things That Make Us (Sic): The Society for the Promotion of Good Grammar Takes on Madison Avenue, Hollywood, the White House, and the World. Frankly, this bitchy title should tell you that this snarky writer would have no more tolerance for husbands than she does for those who don’t use perfect grammar.
Anyway, the article entitled “Why we get mad at our husbands” is simply a rant against husbands and dads who don’t listen, drop whiskers in the sink, can’t deal with the kids and make some women (including her friend)) feel that they are “married to nothing more than a hairy man-child.”
The author is upset that her husband doesn’t listen to her. After reading her nasty piece, I can see why. The gist of it is that men don’t do enough and that women are angry that men aren’t more like…. of course, women:
The ones we also really need to talk to, however, are our husbands. The fact that so many moms are mad, and that so many of the complaints are similar, is significant. And maybe that can give all of us moms — who love our husbands but wish they’d just be…more like us — the push to make some changes, to delegate more and demand more for ourselves. Anger can be debilitating — but it can also be motivating.
Maybe what Brockenbrough should realize is that women feel anger more deeply than men and tend to do more complaining. Maybe the changes need to start with her and her angry fellow women. When you spend your time nagging someone constantly about their faults, whether the “fault” is their less than stellar grammar or what you perceive to be inadequate parenting etc., than it’s no wonder they tune you out. As Gandhi said, “be the change you want to see in the world.” Stop nagging and ranting and treat your guy with respect, maybe then, he will be more receptive to your requests.
For men out there, if a woman seems angry, does that make you more likely or less likely to comply with her demands (requests)?
My wife and I get along very well, but she understands when to make requests and when not to make requests.
Appropriate times to make requests:
- When I ask something along the lines of “what are the plans for today/this weekend?”
- When I look at her and ask “what should we do today/tomorrow/this weekend?”
The pattern is that I am offering my services to do what needs to be done, and I’m giving her my full attention. I’m not stupid, and I know errands need to be done. I’m asking for her input about which ones are a priority for her.
Inappropriate time to make requests:
- When I get home from work
- When I’m not paying attention (watching TV, on the computer, etc)
- When I’m hungry, tired, or in thought
The pattern here is that my mind is somewhere else and I don’t want to hear about requests/demands for my time right now.
Now this may not work for everyone. I’m not a procrastinator, but I understand that many men are, and they might not ever do something without “motivation”, but don’t assume that as the default position.
I was divorced at an early age, I was only a practise husband.
The divorce was the best thing that ever happenned to me and 40 years later I still smiale when I think of it.
Women of the world, Unite! and give men a change to laugh again
This was a major theme of our premarital counseling – that men have a basic psychological need that, when met, motivates them, and when not met, demotivates them. Care to guess what that need is? Respect. Respect for who he is, without condition. Show respect to a man and he is much more likely to act like the man you want him to be. Unless you want him to be a woman, in which case, why did you get married?
you nailed it
Don’t women also have this basic psychological need?
Respect is important for any relationship. You have to give it to get it so be careful about what you say to others. And no, being “romantically involved” doesn’t change that rule. If anything, commitment makes being very careful in how you act towards your significant other even more important. The rule of thumb is seven good interactions to each negative one as a minimum to maintain happiness.
Or as I put it to one overly-needy girlfriend, “Look, would you stay at a job where the other employees constantly harassed you, dissed the work you did, and constantly complained about you to everybody they met? So why would you put up with that from someone who’s supposed to love and support you?”
Damn she’s whiny, and not very bright. When my kids whine like that, I tell them, “Is your tantrum working (to get what you want)? Do tantrums ever work? What would work better?” After 10 years of marriage, she hasn’t figured out that he tunes her out when she goes into “harpy mode”? Nor her friends?
We would also get along better if she were more like a man. I can spend hours on end with my sons and/or friends, and hardly a word gets muttered by any of us, yet we all have a great time. I can spend an hour with my wife, sisters or daughters, and hear nothing but mindless chatter.
And when I ask you where you’d like to go for dinner, don’t say “I don’t care” and then bitch about the choice I make. If you don’t want Chinese, say “anything but Chinese”, not “I don’t care”. Because then I assume you actually don’t care.
This woman’s problem is that she assumes men are the ones that need to change without considering that women are part of the problem.
Takes two to make a team.
I once watch my brother and my husband build a wheelchair ramp for my father without ever speaking a word to each other. They knew what needed doing and did it, no chatter.
Rule: if you may not veto a restaurant/dinner suggestion without offering an alternative. My room mates in college came up with that one and it fixes this problem.
A somewhat neglected factor in this dynamic is that men were once boys, subject to the authority and control of women (mothers, teachers). A man who readily complies with female direction (e.g., nagging, haranguing, lecturing) is reverting to boyhood. Procrastination is passive/aggressive response to such nagging, an assertion of “masculine” (actually: adult) autonomy.
Dr. Helen, I think it highly unlikely that good sense can prevail over the tidal waves of barely repressed man-hatred pouring over American women through outlets to which so many are addicted: the media and the “women’s magazines.” Consider Ellen Tien’s rant excerpted here. Or perhaps Leslie Bennetts’s tirade excerpted here. And of course, along the periphery of discourse, we have Linda Hirshman and her fellow-thinkers, whose aim appears to be to make men irrelevant to women.
That is the prevailing tone of discourse in those channels. Nor are the purveyors at all abashed about it. It’s demonstrably unfair and untrue. From it one could almost imagine that men’s sole role in the history of Mankind was to rape and enslave women. But for every emission of good sense, such as you’ve become known for, there are a hundred like the ones linked above — and American women have largely accepted it as gospel truth, whether consciously or otherwise.
I’d like to be more optimistic; really I would. But I’ve raised two daughters, and neither my example nor my persuasive powers could immunize them completely. Now that they’re adults and on their own, I can only guess at the influences to which they’re exposed…or which cultural ideas about the sexes have won their agreement. And I fear for them.
Follow-up on that: using sex to control your spouse is not justified for anything short of ADULTERY. Anything else is CHEATING. You are DEFRAUDING your spouse by using sex as a weapon, because sex is something your spouse is ENTITLED to by virtue of being your spouse. Notice the gender-neutral language here, because this applies to both men and women.
And most important, If your wife nags you and is bitchy and unreasonable get a divorce. ASAP. My wife of 47 years has her moments but she’s the love of my life and I can’t imagine living without her. The quid pro quo is fulfill your responsibilities as her husband. Get up and go to work every day (Most of us do, or did) Bring your business all home, keep your vows. And don’t by word or deed embarass her in public, ever.
Wow! Imagine that! You mean, the half-century of Feminist propaganda that convinced women that men were subhuman beasts was wrong? That women maybe, just maybe, are the source of their own unhappiness? Perish the thought!
To all things, there is a silver lining though. Dysfunctional women are teaching men everywhere that we really don’t need a woman in our lives. In fact, life gets better the day a man chooses to focus on himself rather than on trying to please a perpetually unhappy irrational woman.
But in the end, that was what Feminism wanted. “A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle” right ladies?
Enjoy spinsterhood and cats. I know I’ll be enjoying my bachelorhood.
As a Practise Hunsband divorced early I can’t imagine getting married
again. Every man must try it, but after the divorce the World is out playground.
No, every man must not try it. Marriage is a disaster for men.
Experience is a dear teacher. Instead, learn through observation while others pay the price of experience.
Put another way, “Anyone can learn from his own mistakes. Wisdom is learning from the mistakes of others.”
I can certainly understand and sympathize with women feeling frustrated that we don’t do more around the house. I am a terminal chore-procrastinator myself until my wife asks for specific tasks to be done, though I’ve improved from my 20s by a fair bit.
However, a couple of things I think women fail to understand about this pattern are:
1) When someone else takes over from us, or jumps in to help, on a task without asking us first if we want the help, most of us men experience it as a *criticism* — a silent declaration of, “Oh, get out of the way and let *me* do that, you’re clearly not doing it right.” (Usually based on a long childhood history of this declaration being made out loud by exasperated parents!) So we don’t tend to offer help unless explicitly asked, and we instinctively veer towards getting people back to where they don’t need our help. A woman who expects to be helped without being asked has to make it as clear as possible how grateful she is for that help.
2) Asking for help, for most men, is an effective admission of not being up to the job — of weakness, helplessness or failure. As a result, if someone doesn’t ask us explicitly for help, we tend to assume it’s because they honestly don’t want it or want to prove they don’t need it. A woman who refuses to ask for help because she’s fuming in silence that it isn’t being offered without asking is only locked into a negative feedback cycle that misunderstands its input.
3) Women are right to observe that men often do not appreciate the work women do around the house — but they then all too frequently turn around and commit exactly the same error. When a husband finally takes a browbeating to heart and starts trying to help, all too many wives make the fatal mistake of letting the first words out of their mouth be, not “Thanks, honey; I’m so grateful you listened!” but “Well, *finally*! *Please* don’t forget again!” or “Actually, hon, it really needs to be done *this* way instead….” There are few more acute discouragements.
4) If a woman stops doing domestic tasks, things are likely to get chaotic, dirty, disorganized, inconvenient and frustrating. If a man (especially a sole breadwinner) stops doing money-earning tasks, the family is likely to lose their home. Yet too many wives act as if merely helping to maintain a clean and organized household is more respect-worthy than paying for the house itself; if they want men to appreciate the work women do, it wouldn’t kill most women to be more appreciative of what men *already* do, rather than taking it as an entitlement.
5) Most of all, women need to stop making the assumption that if something doesn’t get done *right away* it never *will* get done. One of my own bugaboos is that if my wife asks me to do something, and I take ten or fifteen minutes to finish something else first, she’ll lose her patience and do it herself. Not only does this (as I’ve told her) imply that she doesn’t think I’ll ever do it, but it also means she had no good reason for asking me in the first place (since she obviously *had* the time and energy to do it herself in the end anyway), and it teaches the lesson that I don’t need to take such requests seriously since I’m clearly not actually needed or trusted. (My wife is probably never going to break this habit because she is simply not a patient person, but as I am very prone to asking for five minutes and then realizing an hour’s gone by, I don’t get on her back about it.)
What I think most of these women could stand to ask themselves is, in the words of Dr. Phil, “So how’s that workin’ for you?” For most men, beyond a certain very mild level, nagging is acutely counterproductive as an incentive; but it is *very* productive if what you *really* want is the ego-boosting payoff of feeling like the hard-done-by martyr of the house. (Men often go for the same payoff by doing the silent-withdrawal treatment.) They can solve their problems, or they can feel virtuous by complaining about them, but they can’t do both.
You have stated so many truths and with such wisdom. I wish all husbands and wives would read and consider the things you said.
Damn good points
I spent 11 years married to a woman with a chip on her shoulder. You know what it taught me?
Do not marry a feminist.
Ever. For any reason.
You want to be treated as an equal? You will be. But “equal” means just what it sounds like. I don’t talk crap about you when you leave the room, I don’t constantly criticize your faults. Guys who do that are misogynistic jerks, right? So what is it ok for women to do it? It isn’t. Get over yourselves.
They don’t want equality, they want supremacy.
You’re spot on again, Mr. Bicycle. Masculism is about equality.
Lots of well said comments. But useless as this information is always being provided to women and not listened to. So, here is the standard question. Why are so many older American men marrying Asian wives? Sorry, it ain’t because they are easy to control and step all over. Could it be that “they” get it as part of their culture. Mine does.
Rodger hit the nail on the head. What many Asian women have is “grace”, something often lacking in other cultures, especially American culture. It’s funny how many non-Asian women try to explain the attractiveness of Asian women as “subservience”, or some such thing, because they don’t even understand the concept of grace. In fact, the standard non-Asian’s explanation is simply a form of self-congratulation as in, “I don’t see that Asian woman nagging her husband/boyfriend, so she must be subservient to him, whereas I AM NOT.” This is a great example of the general rule that if you propose an explanation for something, and that explanation is self-congratulatory, then it’s probably wrong.
Ive been married to an American-born lady whose parents were Phillipne Immi grants. Funny, but my wife has always been more of a Valley Girl than a Phillipine national type. American culturally, but still with the grace and manners of Asians. I helped my wife through a drug-addiction problem before we were married-she thought my concern for her made me a good husband candidate. 34 yrs later, we are still together.
It isn’t just Asian women. I am married to a Russian after 18 abortive years of trying to appease an American. The difference is night and day. No mind games. Life is now a partnership rather than a battle up stage your partner.
Adam’s curse was that he wanted to make Eve happy.
Years ago I was in a relationship with a woman who was a Miss Manners freak. Went nuclear on me one morning before work because I put an apple muffin on a teacup saucer instead of a plate. I mean tears and all. Obviously, I am no longer involved with that woman. To answer your last question, it only made me want to put muffins on teacup saucers more, not less. One word to all the anal women like her out there: Lighten up, Frances!
“Wives, respect your husbands…” Ephesians 5
“Wives, honor your husbands, and you will win them over without speaking a word…” 1 Peter 3
Strongly recommend Dr. Eggerichs (and his wife Sarah) “Love and Respect”
Ephesians 5 changed our marriage. My husband and I have led two book studies based on “Love and Respect.” It is an excellent book. Both times we took a poll at the beginning of the class, asking the men if they would rather be loved or respected. In each class, seven out of eight men said “Respected,” much to the surprise of their wives. (Oddly, both couples where the man said “Loved” were divorced within the year. We weren’t miracle workers.)
Women have no idea how important respect is to a man. Most of us also don’t even know how to show it. It felt very counter-cultural when we started living out the Love/Respect paradigm, but it truly works. It is the most important thing I think every person getting married should understand.
Try reading For Women Only by Shaunti Feldhahn. Chapter 2 on the importance of respect to men will blow your socks off. I am a male and I totally agree with the respect issue.
It took thirteen comments before the crux of the issue was discovered. All the rest is hot air.
Know why men die before their wives?
They want to.
I think Madison Avenue has already gotten the message, loud and clear. When was the last time you saw a TV commercial where the man or father was NOT portrayed as an idiot man-child who is rescued or sternly brought back in line by his bossy, smarty-pants wife?
For example, one of the McRib ads portray a recently married man considering cancelling his honeymoon so that he can get a McRib while his new wife mutters “I’ve married a 14 yr old boy!”. Or the Subaru ad where a hoodie-wearing aging hipster retraces the day’s roadtrip stops w/his wife in order to find his sunglasses, only to discover they were in his hood (as his wife smiles indulgently at this discovery). And on and on.
Maybe women like Martha Brockenbrough are flattered by this depiction of women saving their men from uncontrolled urges and bad decisions, but I think it makes us look like a bunch of unbearable harridans.
As the mom of four (two boys and two girls), the portrayal of men in the media makes me cringe. All the kids notice it, and my girls have even asked why the dads are so dumb. What in the world are my boys taking from it? Hopefully not much. Their father is a fine man and I have enormous respect for him. I hope that is what they absorb, and not too much of the “dumb dad” stereotype on tv.
Teachers drive me crazy too, especially the younger ones. They think boys are nothing more than deficient girls: “If only he could sit still…” she says, and I say “If he could sit still, he’d be a girl, especially since you have the county minimum 15 minutes of recess per day. I bet a third of the boys’ ADHD cases here would go away if you gave the boys more recess.” (And I don’t want to hear it; I know it’s an official diagnosis and I said a third.) They can’t say a thing because they know I have eight kids, half of which are at eye level or more already, so we both know I know what I’m talking about.
Simple answer for your girls: “Because TV is dumb.” Not complete but it’ll get them started, maybe.
Cell phone ad, has run the past two winters, but I haven’t seen it yet this year. Guy gets his kids to shovel snow for cell phone privileges/minutes/something. He and the wife watch while kids slave away in the freezing cold; he burns his lip on his hot drink. I love it! but can’t remember if it’s Verizon? T-Mobile?
@Libby “I think Madison Avenue has already gotten the message, loud and clear.”
Madison Avenue’s clients certainly have gotten the message of who’s in control of the consumer dollar. For every dollar spent on a woman’s say-so, only 16 cents is spent by/on a man. All that female-ist whining about her 59, 65, 78, 85, 92 or whatever cents is quite hollow. After all – wait for the ‘click’ – what’s more fun, bringing home a paycheck or spending it?
I assume that Madison Avenue portrays men as dolts because it is successful with women. They know this because they do focus groups for test ads. Many women like seeing men portrayed as idiots who need a women to rescue them.
It’s by design. Males are underemployed, unemployed, graduate less, go to college less, are harrassed right out of the work place, sued out of their little areas of solitude from women’s insanity, etc.
Women were considered to be the purse strings of what was being bought, now they are. Men have been lost.
Madison ave knows this and continues to put out dreck accordingly.
Tim Allen’s “Last Man Standing” ever being greenlit, much less still being on air will testify to this.
Or that one about the computer software designed to remove malware & ramp up speed, with wifey giving hubby the run down as if he can hardly define his computer, let alone operate it. It ends with with wifey saying “…ladies night out..” with hubby displaying a deer-in-the-headlights stare saying “Honey?” as she disappears. Most annoying.
Dr. Helen, I’ve read a fair amount of the things that you write, and I have a question for you — that you don’t really need to answer here.
And I ask this with all due respect. . .
What was it that caused you to turn out so well — with apparently a great deal of wisdom and insight?
I ask that because. . . .I don’t think it was your professional training that did it. If it was — I would expect a lot more PhD’s to have the same type of wisdom.
Is it some outside reading that you’ve done? Was it your parents? Was it Glen? (Okay, I say that tongue-in-cheek, but I suspect there’s a little bit of truth in that — if nothing else, he “enables” you, much to our great benefit.)
Whatever it is. . . I wish there was more of it going on!
CF “My Fair Lady”, “Hymn to Him” – “Why can’t a woman be more like a man?”
http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/myfairlady/hymntohim.htm
And women wonder why men like me are single by choice. I own my own home, my own car, I’m pretty much out of debt, I have a great job, a college education, I’m a veteran, physically fit, a volunteer firefighter until just recently, yada yada yada. And for some strange reason, I choose to be single. Whyever could that be?
Orion
If women are angry that they have to nag their husbands to do chores around the house, then why are they angry about nagging their boyfriends when they have no home together nor children? Most women think their Significant Others are their staff which they need to keep busy, often with make work, to satisfy some dysfunctional emotional need of theirs. Women in general have a latent hatred for men that expresses itself in nagging, man-bashing, and rigged harassment programs at work. My gut feeling is that women like being mad and that no amount of appeasement will make them completely happy.
The more I learn about women, the more I like my truck.
This made me laugh. One of the funniest moments in my marriage came about 10 yrs in. I was reading Dr Laura’s Proper care & feeding of husbands & looked at mine incredulously, “Seriously, you have your own ideas, you have your own thoughts, you have your own mind?” It sounds funny but I was raised by a single woman with a sister, no men. I was raised in the “You’ve come a long way baby” 80′s. Men were irrelevant or incompetent idiots, or so I was taught. I instinctively knew different but had a hard time being married. We were far to committed (& hardheaded) to quit though. I complained about my macho Marine husband not being girly enough lol. One day I realized he was NEVER going to be my best girlfriend & that was fine! He was wonderful AS A MAN, he SHOULD be different from me. It changed my mindset & has made the next 10 yrs (& counting & enjoying now) of our marriage much more happy & loving. I preach that message to every girlfriend who goes off on her husband/men in general.
It never ceases to amaze me that certain women think that men should respond to being treated in a way that they would NEVER tolerate. If her man started following her around the house pointing out HER shortcomings, demanding she change how SHE talks, dresses, acts, or spends time with the kids, well….you can just imagine the outcome of that.
A man who tells his wife she spends too much time shopping, wastes money, buys too many clothes, or doesn’t raise her kids right is a controlling monster whereas a wife who tells her husband that he is stingy, watches too much TV, tosses the kids too high when engaging them in horseplay, dresses and eats like a slob, is just trying to help.
Dumb broad. She doesn’t want a husband, she wants a maid that she can order around.
It would be more accurate to say she really wants a maid who gives her $100,000+ a year.
As mentioned above, men get zero appreciation for bring home a paycheck and working their butts off for belittling bosses to hold the family together. Instead, women judge men by how many dishes they wash.
My wife complains that I don’t listen. I tell her it’s not important that I hear what she’s saying because If I miss what she said, I can always catch it the 5th or 6th time she repeats herself. That smooths things over real good. She knew I was a man when she married me 32 years ago.
You’ll notice that despite all of her anecdotal ‘statistics’ she’s ignoring a pretty well establish body of research that has found that men actually work more hours ( ~5hrs ) weekly when factoring employment and housework. Studies of housework alone show a minor deficit (~1hr). The ones that attempt to show that women do the overwhelming majority of housework typically neglect all but traditional women’s work. This is in line w/ MB’s take on the matter – men are inadequate because they don’t meet their wives’ arbitrary standards for the work assigned to them by their wives.
Well, St.Paul said that men need to demonstrate love to their wives, and women need to demonstrate respect to their husbands. That was nearly 2000 years ago. Pity so many women made fun of it the last few decades — they might have had happier marriages. (Lest you think I don’t know what I’m talking about, my husband and I have been married 24 years and I still feel like a newly wed)
An ex and I were constantly talking about about me, in general, and specifically why I was such a lazy, unsuccessful and emotionally retarded jerk. I loved her so I conformed to her ideas and still, that conversation was continually occurring.
Finally, I pleaded with her, just tell me what you want me to do so we can move on to another topic. Her repsonse was,”How am I supposed to tell you what I want when I don’t even know?” I duly noted that and promptly gave up but still, ten years later, feel like a sucker for allowing her to push me around and make me doubt myself.
I know it’s a famous remark, but I can’t help but be reminded of Churchill’s response to a woman who snapped at him, saying, “If you were my husband, I’d poison your tea.”
Churchill replied, “If you were my wife, I’d drink it.”
Paul gets a bad rap for writing about how the man is the head of the household and the wife’s role is a subordinate one. Feminists get so incensed at this suggestion that they forget to read a couple of verses later: a man is to love his wife as Christ loves the Church, willing to lay his life down for her.
Marriage is a two-way street. As women need to feel loved and cherished, men need to feel respected. A woman who makes her husband feel whipped and defeated is a curse to him. And a man who does not bring joy into his home is a failure.
Judging by what I read and what I see on TV and the movies, America has raised a generation of women who can be best described as lipstick-wearing, wallet-eating heathen piranhas. My advice to young single men would be to stay single. If they just can’t manage to stay single, they should find a nice Reformed Protestant church, become active there, and give it three years. Also, there are many beautiful Christian ladies in Korea and the Phillipines who are more traditional and far less spoiled than young American women.
As for me, I am the most fortunate man I know. I married a wonderful woman almost thirty years ago. I have long since lost whatever handsomeness I once possessed, but she is even more beautiful today than she was when I married her. And she treats me like a king. There is no way I deserve it, but I’m very grateful and try my best to make her, likewise, feel like my queen.
My. Part of what I wrote above sound pretty misogynistic, so let me clarify. I’m not just a mysogynist, I’m also a misanthrope.
Today’s young single men seem to me like young men of any generation: more or less worthless. Having sex all the time with sexy ladies is pretty much the measure of a young man’s dreams of a good life. Having sex, however, used to have strings attached: marriage, settling down, having children, acquiring some responsibility. Without these strings, he will follow the beat of some pretty primitive drums.
Our society used to understand the importance of premarital chastity and monogamous marriage. Well, at some point we decided to break that institution to pieces. Like most important institutions, it was easier to break than it will be to put it back together.
Don’t apologize! Reject the programming. When was the last time a woman commentor apologized for being androphobic or sexist?
An angry woman is a pain. What’s worse to me is the hypercritical one. She makes sure no fault, however small, goes unnoticed or unremembered. That’s a woman who inspires the man to just leave.
I’m one of the lucky ones. Married to a great woman 19 years. She *asks* me when would be a good time for me to do errands. When I ask where we should go to dinner she chooses but asks me if it’s okay with me. Once in a while I ask first if she would like to go someplace I want to and she’s comfortable saying if she really doesn’t want to go.
I see the problem all around me all the time, though. Perhaps for most of history men ran things and saw women as sort of crippled men, but they mostly didn’t expect them to actually *be like men. [Well, My Fair Lady aside.] Today, in the US at least, the feminine is the default mode and women apparently *expect* men to act like women.
I’m sorry feminists. I mostly have one mood all the time. I’m probably overly rational. I want to ‘fix’ problems, not talk them to death. Sometimes when you ask me what I’m thinking I’m really, truly not thinking about much of anything. I don’t much care what your clothing looks like as long as you’re okay with it. I’m pretty direct and very cynical. Deal with it.
I have friends that are driven to distraction by the women in their lives and friends who are as content as I am. The only difference I can see is whether or not the women involved expect the men to act like women.
Oh. And I do my share of household chores. I do the cooking and shopping. I wash my own laundry [she won't let me do hers]. I clean my share. I take care of her when she needs that and leave her alone when she doesn’t. She does the same for me. We’re complementary, not identical.
What a pleasant individual. I can’t imagine speaking with her, or anyone like her, outside of the DMV.
She is the product of a toxic culture. There are other cultures, and other women.
The CNN article was horrible. Part 2 was even worse. I thought Part 2 was supposed to be about men’s response to the original article, but it only provided more advice about how women can control the situation. The whole thing was about managing the household, mult-tasking, taking care of kids. Evidently, the women can’t handle it so why do they expect men to do it? Its like the women lost control so they expected their men to fix it; however, for most men, the house is not their domain. Showing such disrepect doesn’t get the job done. How about a different example? What if a man make such demands of his wife? COOK and CLEAN. Will she do it? Obviously not.
From my perspective, cleaning up the sink after I shave is common courtesy. I don’t want to see hair all over the bathtub from her shaving her legs or bras hanging from the shower rod, so it’s a two way street. If a woman has to “nag” a man over the condition of the sink or leaving the toilet seat up, chance are she’s not a nag – her husband is aa thoughtless, inconsiderate slob.
I consider it nagging if a woman carps over mistakes made in the past that have already been acknowledged as mistakes, but can’t be changed because time machines don’t exist yet. It is not constructive cricticism – it is criticism for the sake of criticizing.
But asking someone not to live like a slovenly hog and expecting someone else to clean up the mess is not nagging.
I don’t know that women get angrier than men. I do know that most men I know have learned or become conditioned to believe that it is counterproductive and/or not socially acceptable to take that anger out on your spouse or partner.
I’m curious, how do lesbian couples deal with this? Especially since their partners are, in fact, already acting like women.
Statistically, Domestic Violence is higher among lesbian couples than it is among any other pairing.
“For men out there, if a woman seems angry, does that make you more likely or less likely to comply with her demands (requests)?”
As someone who has dated 3 women and am now seriously reconsidering the prospect of marriage… let me give you my two cents on this question.
If she’s angry then that in itself become a motivating factor for me… with two caveats:
1) Is it an actual problem? Is it a genuinely bad habit? If so… I’ll try to quit. If not… well… that leads to problems.
2) Last time when she got angry about something… and I stopped doing it/started fulfilling her requests… did she genuinely back off or is she coming in with more heated demands? I’m no opponent to changing things, but I’m not one to fulfill demand after arbitrary demand. Bad behavior on my part is one thing… but it is equally bad behavior to mold someone into someone they’re not against their wishes. If it’s a one time request (or fulfills the first condition) then… ok… probably needs some compromise there… But if it’s a systematic pattern (like it was for my last 3 girlfriends) then… forget it.
Good heavens Morgue, I hope you have some sort of secret signal you use with your wife.
If I’m not allowed to bother a man when he’s watching TV, thinking, on the computer, tired, or hungry, I calculate that leaves a 2 minute window that I’ll have to spend all day waiting to ambush.
So don’t bother him. If you want something done, do it yourself.
Angry = More Compliance. Initially. I need to put out the fire, get back to calm. But long term, it’s something I just need out of my life.
I’ll leave it at that for now, I’m in an entirely ugly place re: Male-Female Relations so I’ve got nothing else constructive. Respect would be nice.
Women send men on quests; men get the chance to prove themselves; then the woman shows the man that she’s satisfied with him. Repeat forever.
(This was the hidden formula of “Get Smart” in the 60s, and why every man in America was in love with 99, who never failed to appreciate Max’s willing spirit even though he screwed up every time.)
If a woman fails to show the man she’s satisfied with him, it’s turned into nagging.
If the woman aims instead at all men rather than any particular man, it’s feminism. Something is wrong and men have to change to fix it. Satisfaction is of course impossible to show.
“who love our husbands but wish they’d just be…more like us”
How silly and childish.
I don’t want to be like a woman, nor do I want women to act like men.
The question is, why doesn’t she seek out a lesbian relationship?
Women bashing? Hardly.
More like venting from a society that teaches us that men are all grossly incompetent or lazy (watch the commercials), that we are all rapists and child molesters, that we have no souls.
There is the joke, why can’t women find a boyfriend who is sensitive, caring and enjoys the same things she does?
Because those men already have boyfriends!
Most women seem to want to either find a gay man to be their Bee Eff Eff or some ass to be abusive but they know he loves them and he will change
Been married to my best friend for 21 years. We’ve had our ups and downs with nagging, and I have learned to pick up after myself for the most part. But I’ll never clean as good as the wife does, and she (grudgingly) accepts that now.
The funny thing with women is that they want men to do more “female” things like clean and talk, but when there is a noise outside in the dark, or something in the house that’s not working, or the car won’t start – they are little girls again. So it seems that men are supposed to become more like women, but it doesn’t work the other way.
“Gutters need cleaning, honey. I did it last time. It’s your turn.”
Really great point. They count the every day things, but do not count the less frequent things. So what if men WERE more like women?
“Roof needs repair? I patched it last time. It’s your turn.”
“Sorry, honey, but it is your turn to fix the car. I did it last time.”
“You think there’s an intruder? Go check it out. I took care of the last burglar.”
“He’s got a knife? Well, I dealt with the last armed robber. It’s your turn.”
“Oh, and you are not doing it right!”
Assuming the angry demand is from my wife, I may comply if the request is specific. For instance I usually am not interested in answering the phone because 90% of the time the call is for my wife of teenage son. We have an answering machine and if I hear something in the message that tells me I should pick up, then I will. This really irritates the wife who will break her leg running for the phone. But I have no intention of changing my ways here, if the call is not for me I don’t care about it, and if they don’t leave a message then I assume it wasn’t important anyway. If on the otherhand she tells me she is expecting a specific call then of course I’ll answer. But that still doesn’t make her happy, she cannot comprehend that I do not enjoy yacking on the phone.
If a woman (my wife) is angry, she may get me to do whatever it is, but I sure as hell won’t be doing it with a cheerful spirit. As for nagging, I’m even less motivated. Frankly after 20 years of marriage, if I could divorce her without losing everything I’ve worked for (she’s never had a job, we’ve never had children) I would. At this point, I’m just hoping to outlast her so that I can enjoy my last few years in silence with a dog that’s always happy to see me.
Hell this is why men go to strip bars… to see a woman that’s actually HAPPY to see him (even if it’s just for the $). I’ll take fake happiness over real bitterness any day.
Consult a psychiatrist. We never want to admit it, but women are much more prone to depression than men, mostly due to hormones. She might be just a bitch, but she might be sick. We don’t tell people with high blood pressure to “suck it up, and just be reasonable”. Neither should we treat depression like that.
A psychiatrist who prescribes drugs; not a psychologist, who will just leave you even more depressed, after taking up lots of your time and money. I spent 20 years in Hell before I saw what now looks so obvious. It may be the problem; it might not be. It’s worth a try.
Good luck.
Or at least get her to have a physical. My wife was having these brief (but getting more frequent) boughts of irrationality and bitchiness, which later morphed into signs of depression.
Turns out the reason was physical. She was having issues with her thyroid. Medication turned back into the reasonable, level headed woman I married six years earlier, withing 48 hours.
There were physical signs of the thyroid issue as well. But neither of us recognized them as such until her condition got much worse.
I spent an hour this afternoon watching my wife shop for clothes and jewelry. I don’t know why she derives so much satisfaction from looking for new clothes, shoes and shiny things any more than I know why my cat has to stop mid-stride and lick some patch of fur.
In marriage as in life generally, its not about understanding, its about accepting.
That’s how I got to my thirtieth anniversary.
My wife used to nag me constantly.
Now she nags the guy who is about to leave her next.
“For men out there, if a woman seems angry, does that make you more likely or less likely to comply with her demands (requests)?”
Less. But let me assure you, there is a very significant (perhaps the majority) population of men who take the path of least resistance and comply simply to get the angry, whiny diatribes to stop. And women like the one referenced react to such behavior.
I’m unmarried, and therefore I don’t have a wife who nags me, so I can’t comment on that. However, shouldn’t the title of a grammarian’s book be “…the White House, and the Rest of the World” or is she talking about some other world, perhaps one where redundancy is acceptable?
Many years ago I was dating a woman. On several occasions she told me that she didn’t need a man to have a child. Of course, she wasn’t talking about the need for a man to provide the sperm. Instead she was stating that she didn’t need a man to get her pregnant. Instead, she had a wonderful gynecologist who would help her (I assume artificially). Needless to say, she eventually dumped me. I am acquainted with young woman who, not long ago, spoke in front of a group about how much her father had meant in her life. However, she has also adopted a young baby, without getting married. Now why, when her father meant to much to her, is she denying her daughter the same benefit. I had a friend who actually talked with me about getting pregnant artificially (thank goodness she didn’t ask me to be the donor), but then I would be the male role model for the child (apparently I had little choice in the matter).
I have rarely met a woman who has had nice things to say about men (“why do men cheat”, “how can you tell a man is lying – his lips are moving”, and so forth). My favorite complaint is “my eyes are up here, not down there.” Of course, these same women are wearing things that accentuate and exaggerate what we are not supposed to ogling.
I know men aren’t perfect, and some should never be allowed to mate. However, because of my experiences and of what I have heard from women like Ms. Brockenbrough, I can never imagine getting married because I can never imagine that I can actually make a woman happy (and we all know, if momma ain’t happy ain’t nobody happy).
Depends on why she’s angry.
On a closely related topic, I’m always barraged by the claim that women are better communicators. Not in my experience they aren’t. It’s somewhat an elitist attitude, not substantiated by any facts that I can see. Seems they perpetuate this myth to avoid any unpleasant self-analysis.
Dr. Helen, glad to see you don’t seem to suffer from any deficiency in this area.
Funny how women brag about generally better verbally, but the sky will fall anyone points out the fact that men are generally better at math & spatial skills.
I started attending (and stopped soon thereafter) feminist gatherings back in the 70s. What I found there was a real dislike of the male gender, and I couldn’t reconcile it, because I was the daughter, wife and mother of males that I actually liked and respected. I had spent my formative years in a southern American (or frontier American = Texas, if you wish) culture that based itself on male competence and, dare I say it, honor, but which at the same time, regarded women as not only necessary to civilization, but key actors in its implementation. When I met these feminist women, I discovered that more than a few of them were daughters of divorce, did not like their fathers, and had been through divorces of their own, and had nothing good to say about their former spouses.
I’m not trying to denigrate divorce, because there are plenty of bad marriages that should be ended for the good of all concerned. What I do dispute is the commonly accepted trope that men are somehow genetically predisposed for all the blame. Women… especially chronically unhappy women… should look at another woman of their acquaintance and ask themselves if they would really be happy married to that person. My guess is, regardless of gender, marriage (or “a relationship”) comes down to individuals who can work together, value each other regardless of shortcomings, and occasionally, swallow their overweening pride.
Of course, being really picky, it’s male sex and masculine gender
Honestly, I do not believe that “most” American women are nags. In fact, I would say that only about one out of 10 of my friends nag their husbands.
I am sorry for these guys who have nagging wives. They obviously chose wrong, and had the wrong criteria when they chose their wives.
People don’t typically change overnight just because a marriage vow is said. I wonder how long many of these people dated their spouses before marriage – did they really know them?
Or, did they just not care because the nagging wife looked so darn hot?
My mother never nagged my dad, and I have never nagged my husband. I’m just happy to have him around when he is not working, even if he is involved with his own hobbies. I have my hobbies, too.
American women have forgotten that they can get more of what they want by being sweet.
As Jack Nicholson said, in one of his roles, when asked how he got women so right:
“First, I think of a man. Then I take away reason and accountability!
A friend was at my house when he wife called saying that she was painting the bedroom and couldn’t get the curtain rod down and wanted him to do it. We stopped what we were doing and drove several miles to his house. As he was taking the curtain rod down, his wife was telling me that “he never did anything for her.” !!
If a wife nags and bitches, she is merely ‘communicating her unmet needs’.
But if the husband blows up and finally tells her off, why that’s ‘psychological abuse’.
I’ve been on two jobs where the most common breaktime activity was griping about the job. One was at UPS (mostly men), and the other was in a hospital lab (mostly women). In both cases the employees worked themselves into a fit about how crappy the job was, and how anxious they were to leave.
I’m a bit older now, and I’ve noticed that a significant percentage of women my age while on break tend to cluster up and gripe about their husbands, ex-husbands, boyfriends etc (when they do this a prudent male will be elsewhere). My male friends are much more discrete about their relationships.
Two observations:
1. All of these are negative feedback situations. You’ve got it bad, they’ve got it bad, so the world sucks and you’re ready to kill somebody.
2. If you air your dirty laundry with your family, the neighbors and the gossips at work, don’t be surprised if your mate acts a bit cold around you. Weathermen and wind direction and all that.
The moral of the story? Relax. Be happy.
Charlie
I have seen several situations where women would do just that. In every case, when the first one divorces here bum, teh rest will follow suit shortly thereafter.
My wife said something about this to me the other day, but I don’t remember it because unless she is telling me dinner is ready or she is naked, I don’t care.
Men: Never lose the upper hand against a woman. A women who views you as lower status than you will never respect you, and will probably fuck the mailman.
Funny, she sounds like she is describing me exactly, yet my marriage is pretty damn happy. My wife has learned to live with my faults. And, I have learned to live with hers. Funny how women fail to acknowledge they aren’t perfect either.
Some years ago I got a book called “You STILL don’t get it”, which went into the evolutionary psychology of why women are naggy and demanding- basically because while they may alienate their men with the attitude, they get more “stuff” out of them. The author said (if I remember correctly) that two thirds of relationships are like this. He also noted that a minority of relationships had women that were more kindly and cooperative, calling them the “sweethearts”, and lamented that sometimes the men failed to respect and appreciate these women.
In turn, it makes me appreciate my husband more- he does recognize and love all of the ways I try to make him happy and comfortable, while he is busy working the stressful job that keeps our lifestyle going. We have been married 22 years, and the infatuation never wore off; sometimes it feels as much like an affair as a marriage.
If you have a choice between honey and vinegar, try the honey first.
The insufferable caprice of the modern American woman is driving men to stonewall their women. They are constantly testing you to be sure they are still in charge.
But the reality is that they don’t really like wimps and they don’t like to dominate because it makes them insecure and unsure of their male partner. Their DNA crys out for domination by their man.
You see this characteristic more with 25-35 year old woman who don’t have the femist fervor that their mothers have. They don’t really want a career.
Women are a wonderful thing.
Naggy women are ok too, but their annoying behavior should be punished (punished in the broadest behaviorist meaning, certainly not via some physical altercation — ignoring the nagging is usually sufficient punishment imho) so that their annoying behavior is extinguished and their wonder can be fully expressed.
An angry women, like any angry person, is dangerous and should be dealt with carefully. Carefully though differs from respectfully, which is sad. So, an angry woman is not respected or wonderful, merely dealt with and the person (man or woman) doing the dealing will be sad about it.
While this comment is responding to the author’s query about women in particular, the point is more broad, in general, for both men and women, becoming angry is not often a wise choice.
My Very Best Roommates (just roommates) were men. I found that they were more straightforward and trustworty that female roommates. If you sat down together before moving in, and made a deal (like we will both clean every Sunday morning, starting at 0900, or we will take turns buying beer…) the guys would always stick to the deal. Women would be hungover, or not feeellll like it, yes, with that whiny tone in their voices. Men are far easier to live with than women.
In my marriage, I just did the same thing. Communicate clearly, once, and guys react pretty well.
Lot of woman bashing going on here based an article written by ONE woman. Why do you men think so little of women, that you all just burst into spontaneous hate comments when someone like Helen Smith gives you an excuse? And shame on any of you women joining in.
Because it rings true in our own lives. Although, you have to wonder about the guys who say ALL women are like that; looks like they either are completely incompetent at picking good women, or they inspire bad behavior?
Did you comment on the original article, asking why all the women who posted vehement agreements and cheers there thought so little of men?
Perhaps I am being unfair and you did exactly that, in which case I apologize. But if it’s “shameful” to criticize observed patterns of behaviour on the part of a majority (never all) of the opposite sex, in the hope of finding solutions to the problems those patterns cause, then most feminist advocacy (including the bits I firmly agree with, like ending domestic violence and equal pay for equal work) has been “shameful” as well.
We’re not bashing women: we are bashing one particular emotional response too many women have learned, i.e. the tendency to blame their husbands for their own feelings of being overloaded, and to take that blame out on their husbands via anger and nagging, *regardless of whether it is justified or not.* We’re not saying it’s *never* justified; we would simply like those women guilty of this to stop behaving as if it is *always* justified.
Dr. Laura has made a career, and written a great book on this very subject. What took you all so long to get a heads up?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060566752/pajamasmedia-20
Here’s another one.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0974143502/pajamasmedia-20
Most arguments that couples have are ‘chore’ issues, and that is due to people allowing their kids to argue the toss for being made to do stuff, this then carries over into adulthood where people end up terrorizing each other over petty trivialities.
When I was a kid, if you argued, went slow over a job or did it badly, you got a second chore so you get practice at doing stuff the right way. So I never developed the ‘trade union mind set’ as striking and protesting didn’t pay off for me.
But for lots of people this anti-authoritarian fad of bring up kids with ‘rights’ and ‘self-determination’ has landed them with self-sabotaging habits and attitudes which make marriage and other teams difficult to run.
Finally, as a wise Rabbi once said regards marriage success: There are no perfectly matched couples, only couples that want to match each other perfectly.
I didn’t get anything from the article. As my children will readily tell you, I don’t speak Whinese. I do, however love my wife of 28 years and I love all seven of my children (6 sons, one daughter).
If I can do no right then your opinion of me is of no value. I no longer pay any real attention to you.
For those who are not married and are already receiving this kind of treatment DON’T marry that woman for it will only get worse. Take it from a person who has been married almost 50 years. I only had to say the above once.
This is something women do to cover up their own failures. The busier you are in defending yourself the less likely you are to see her faults. Don’t play the game. A wife is supposed to be a friend. If you want respect you have to give it!
“You’ll never be good enough to a woman with a mean streak”
Men in single state should tarry,
While women, I suggest they marry.
— Samuel Hoffenstein (1890 – 1947)
For me, it’s very simple. I’ll try to fulfill almost all requests, as long as they aren’t patently dangerous. If I don’t have a strong opinion about something (how to put the forks in the dishwasher, etc), I’m happy to comply.
On the other hand, when I walk into a barrage of directions (“You need to do this…”), I completely tune out. One gives orders to subordinates and inferiors.
I think the angry wives would do well to recognize the difference.
My husband does not listen to me either. But, I knew this going in. The way I fix this is when he talks I listen but pretend to not listen. When he brings it to my attention by hollering at me, I repeat back to him exactly what he sais in the same tone of voice. It is a game we play. We have been together for over 30 years and still in love. When he leaves his underwear on the floor and I skip those in the wash and he wants to know where his clean underwear are I just smile and say pick up the ones on the floor, turn them inside out and wear them another week..he finally gets it. When he shaves and leaves stubble in the sink I clean it..after all..he’s only a man…when the kids needed correction, I threatend to tell Dad on them..they behaved..when the kids are all grown and you have nothing but the two of you..these little things do not matter..they bring smiles to your face when your daughter complains about your son-in-law..it’s life..get over it…
There’s no point in trying to get men to care as much as women about domestic tasks like cooking, cleaning, and raising children. The nagging women should indeed start showing respect. They should learn to accept their husbands for what they are, assuming they are decent chaps in other regards.
Whats missing in this analysis, is that the the bias against men goes deeper than an annoying wife, who never shuts up, but makes up for it by NOT listening. You can barely watch TV, without a show or commercial where the man is portrayed as not being capable of tying there own shoelaces. While the woman is shown as the adult and the glue that holds things together, despite their mans stupidity. I know all women arent like that. Im not bitter. Ill even go further and say the majority of women arent like Brokenbrough,at all. The real issue is that men arnt aloud to be men anymore. The focus is on the bad part of being a man and its spirit killing. In the service, I was surprised to know that I wasnt the only American husband who prefered to be in Afghanistan, then home with the wife. Being now divorced after 8 years of misery, I mean marriage. Ill never get married again.
WRT “if a woman seems angry, does that make you more likely or less likely to comply with her demands (requests)?” – well, after 47 yrs of a good marriage, I’d say it makes me more likely to listen actively and closely – for about 10 minutes. If it takes longer than that to resolve her issue into something I can do, I’ve learned she just needs to vent, and let her (with sympathy). As far as complying… we decided on a rule long ago to separately assess the importance of a course of action to ourselves, and go with the preferred action of whoeever it’s most important to; only if we’re equal do we go with the Ephesians 5 precedence (and that happens very seldom.)
Yes; we use Ephesians as a tie-breaker because neither of us is into “power”, we just want things to work well.
Relationships are all about power, about who has it. If the lines are drawn clearly and accepted by both, there is no friction. Good fences make good neighbors. Each person has to have his areas of authority, and it has to be recognized and respected.
I stuck with my miserable wife until she finally filed for divorce. It was miserable, because she had to have the power in everything. She had to be in charge. She tried to treat me like a subordinate or a child. Being the kind of guy who does not gently acquiesce to anything, we fought all the time. I hated it, but, being Irish, I think she kind of enjoyed the fighting. She seems to like being mad.
We get along much better now that we are apart. She has to respect my prerogatives to get anything from me. She also appreciates me much more. Perhaps that is because she has had a couple loser boyfriends since and can see the difference.
Whatever the reason, the main thing is, it is clear I am not her subordinate, and we get along much better. She has made it clear I would be welcome back into her life. I won’t go there, because the boundaries would dissolve. She simply cannot observe the boundaries of other people unless forced to. It is because she is insecure, and thus, needs to feel in control of everything.
Women, men are not your lackeys. They are not children. There is a reason they do not marry their mothers. Do not try to be their mother. You will just both be unhappy if you do.
“For men out there, if a woman seems angry, does that make you more likely or less likely to comply with her demands (requests)?”
I haven’t been married, and thus cant speak from experience. But I think a major factor is how often the woman is angry. If someone who is normally placid and good natured, is angry, that is a break in pattern, and I would pay attention, and try to do something. But if she is angry almost all of the time, then I would learn to tune out the constant rants for my own sanity. Thus my advice would be to save your anger for issues that matter the most, and learn to laugh off the ones that matter less. Most married guys I have known, truly want their wives to be happy, and will try their best, but if the demands are too constant and unreasonable, they will give up and tune out.
If everything your husband does seems to make you angry, you are either an angry person, or have married a totally incompatible husband. The way to tell the difference there is whether many other people also constantly make you angry, in which case you might have either anger management issues, or are an unreasonable perfectionist.
Ive been married for 34 years. One of the things I remember my wife telling me before we were married(and she was 21 then) was that she never met a women who didnt need to complain about something(not excluding herself) . One of the more refrshing things about her is that she never looks for things to c omplain about, which is what I have noted in some tense marriages Ive seen.