One of the more interesting questions asked on Internet forums is whether Audie Murphy was a war criminal because he used a tank destroyer’s .50 caliber machine gun against attacking German troops. Without pronouncing on that nettlesome subject, the Strategy Page writes that the US military has developed a number of non-lethal weapons energy weapons which were work perfectly well but were never used because they might be the subject of sensational headlines.
Take, for example, the microwave ADS, or Active Denial System (which transmits a searchlight sized beam of energy that makes people downrange feel like their skin is on fire). This system was never quite ready for prime time …
The proposed ROE (Rules of Engagement) for ADS were that anyone who kept coming after getting hit with microwave was assumed to have evil intent, and could be killed. The microwave was believed to be particularly useful for terrorists who hide in crowds of women and children, using the human shields to get close enough to make an attack. This has been encountered in Somalia and Iraq. But not often enough in Afghanistan to give the one ADS there a chance to be used in action (as opposed to tests) for the first time. But the real reason for not using ADS is commanders unwilling to take the media heat for employing a “death ray” on “innocent civilians.”
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The effect of weapons is never purely physical. It is at least partially political. Sometimes the political effect can be used to advantage. For example, a nonlethal weapon called the Long Range Acoustic Device — a sound cannon — could be used to impersonate the Voice of God. The Strategy Page says the discovery came quite by accident when the Navy rigged a microphone to LRAD so that an interpreter could project a warning to suspected pirates. The results were unintentionally startling.
It was noted that the guy on the receiving end was sometimes terrified, even after he realized it was that large American destroyer that was talking to him. This apparently gave soldiers some ideas, for there were rumors among Iraqis of a devilish American weapon that makes people believe you are hearing voices in your head. It appears that some of the troops in Iraq used “spoken” (as opposed to “screeching”) LRAD to mess with enemy fighters. Islamic terrorists tend to be superstitious and, of course, very religious. LRAD can put the “word of God” into their heads. If God, in the form of a voice that only you can hear, tells you to surrender, or run away, what are you gonna do?
Run away, that’s what you’re going to do.
The overall effectiveness of a weapon is at least partially dependent on its psychological impact. From a certain point of view, a microwave weapon may not be used against crowds in preference to bullets because it may enrage them — or at least enrage them after they learned from the Left that America has used a “death ray” on innocent civilians. By contrast a glorified sound system can have fantastically effective results. Why? Because it works on a vulnerability in the enemy’s perception.
It may sound illogical, but there it is.
Perhaps the classic example of mind over matter — rumor over reality is the Indian Mutiny. The decline of the British Raj is often reckoned from this date. How did it happen? Psychology. Indian soldiers, or sepoys, were were somehow convinced that the British impregnated their paper cartridges with a sacrilegious types of animal fat. In drilling their troops, the British officers helped incite the Mutiny.
The British, had fully capitalized on the propaganda effect of technology on less scientific cultures. What they failed to realize was that if the White Man could be ascribed magical powers, he was also susceptible to being blamed for Black Magical ones.
The final spark was provided by the ammunition for new Pattern 1853 Enfield Rifle. These rifles had a tighter fit, and used paper cartridges that came pre-greased. To load the rifle, sepoys had to bite the cartridge open to release the powder. The grease used on these cartridges included tallow, which if derived from pork would be offensive to Muslims, and if derived from beef would be offensive to Hindus. At least one British official pointed out the difficulties this may cause:
unless it be proven that the grease employed in these cartridges is not of a nature to offend or interfere with the prejudices of caste, it will be expedient not to issue them for test to Native corps…
However, in August 1856, greased cartridge production was initiated at Fort William, Calcutta, following British design. The grease used included tallow supplied by the Indian firm of Gangadarh Banerji & Co. By January, the rumours were abroad that the Enfield cartridges were greased with animal fat. Company officers became aware of the rumors through reports of an altercation between a high-caste sepoy and a low-caste labourer at Dum Dum. The labourer had taunted the sepoy that by biting the cartridge, he had himself lost caste, although at this time such cartridges had been issued only at Meerut and not at Dum Dum.
But the facts didn’t matter. The myth did. The British Raj, having ruled partially on the strength of myth, was also undone by it. Take Dum Dum, another name that has ascended into legend. Dum Dum of course, was the site of a Raj era arsenal which manufactured expanding bullets for the .303 Enfield cartridge. Such bullets are widely believed to be prohibited by the Laws on Warfare.
The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use in international warfare of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body, giving as example a bullet with a jacket with incisions or one that does not fully cover the core. This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the Declaration of St Petersburg in 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams.
Dum-dum is now used as a shorthand for an inhuman kind of bullet, as if there were any other kind. Which brings the discussion right back to Audie Murphy, whose Medal of Honor citation (an alleged record of war crime) reads as follows:
Second Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by six tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to a prepared position in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him, to his right, one of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire, which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from three sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad that was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued his single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way back to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack, which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy’s indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy’s objective.
It may not be wholly facetious to note that it was fortunate for Murphy that his Medal of Honor citation was written before people started believing that using .50 caliber BMG bullets against infantry targets was a war crime. Times change and what is regarded as laudable depends in part on the attitudes of the era.
Watch: “Should The .50 Caliber Round Be Banned On Humans?”
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If one is accustomed to the Hollywood image of the hard fighting hero, Audie Murphy is something of a shock – he didn’t look the part at all; but then he was the genuine article, not the imitation.
I heard a story about a WW2 veteran who took his grandson to see a Rambo movie, back when they were new. The veteran was unimpressed. “In the outfit I was in,” he declared, “Rambo would have been the cook.”
While sitting in a group of extras killing time between takes on a movie location “Murph” was the least noticeable actor. Super nice guy. Was lugging a lunch table up a hill once and he – unnoticed – picked up the other end and helped haul it.
“Rules of Engagement”. A progressive term for “we don’t want to win this, just keep the other guys busy for awhile – and try to look good doing it”.
Use of .50 caliber ammunition against people is not a war crime, no matter what loony AF buddy told them that.
Every US weapon used is reviewed before fielding to ensure it complies with the law of war.
So no, that’s actually not a very interesting question asked on internet forums.
“the Strategy Page writes that the US military has developed a number of non-lethal weapons energy weapons which were work perfectly well but were never used because they might be the subject of sensational headlines.”
The DOD is one gigantic unaccountable slush fund that is only eclipsed by the Fed. The exact number of billions that are pissed away every year, like the $7B cash sent to Iraq, will never be known because, as Wretchard says, “because they might be the subject of sensational headlines”.
But far more worrisome than these billions pissed away into the pockets of the MIC is all the weaponry designed with a secondary or even primary purpose of crowd and riot control in the US. Further, we have also seen how local police forces are being militarized with assault weapons and armored vehicles to be used on the local populace.
Wot a nutter! Just because he doesn’t like something, it’s illegal!
Johnny Reb;
http://www.inderscience.com/search/index.php?action=record&rec_id=1398
Look around the room you are in. Almost everything you see is a spin-off from weapons research. The best estimate is every dollar spent on weapons research return 10$ to the US economy.
One of the distinctions between a child and an adult is that adults can set priorities. Several ostensibly incompatible ideas can all be true in isolation. For example you can believe that it is wrong to kill and that others have the right to be wrong and that killers should be stopped and that it is wrong to impose on the freedom of others and that a man should always wear clean clothes. Each of these beliefs can be defended in isolation. It is impossible and irrational to attempt to act on all of them at the same time as if they were equal. 2LT Murphy did not spend his time during the battle lecturing his men on their sloppy uniforms. While he was a quiet mild mannered person he choose at that moment to prioritize defending the United States and stopping the Nazis over his belief in not imposing on others.
Most people become functional adults in that they can make simple choices that allow them to perform at a level needed to hold a job. No one becomes a perfect person so mature that they can rationally consider all the conflicting principles and correctly order them at all times. Socialist propaganda infantalizes people in that it promotes their inflexible attachment to trivial issues so that power can be retained by the manipulating elite.
Every tool is subject to abuse. That is no reason to choose ignorance but rather is a reason to strengthen the mechanisms for controlling the application of the tools to limit the abuse. Band saws can be dangerous. You can either prohibit band saws or invent and install safeties. Ranting about the MIC and choosing not to have tools, whether non-lethal beams or sound systems or nuclear weapons, because those tools could be abused is childish and leaves the community weaker. Having BHO in charge of the armed forces is a bad idea. The answer could be to eliminate the armed forces or to replace BHO. Choose wisely.
In WWI the Brock exploding bullet was developed under the absurd idea that Zeppelins were protected by a double envelope of fabric, the space between the envelopes being filled with the engine exhaust gases. The Brock bullet was not to be used against aircraft, since that would not be cricket, or something. Pilots flying aircraft armed with Brock bullets were given a blue card that constituted their authorization to use such bullets in the event they landed behind enemy lines.
But also in WWI the French tried using 37MM cannon firing through the hollow crankshaft of Spads, and nobody seemed worried about getting a note from their mother. By the way, the problem was that the 37MM could only fire one shot at a time, reloading was limited to when the breech opened under the pilot’s seat, at which time the gases from the breech threatened to asphyxiate the pilot.
In WWII the US developed the Armor Piercing Incendiary round for the .50 cal guns used on aircraft, rounds which essentially exploded. Among other things, hits sparkled and so gave a positive indication of impact, making tracers unnecessary. And fighter pilots did not worry if they were shooting API at ground targets and people.
Relative to the previous thread, Dow Chemical was judged an Enemy of the Left in the 60’s because they made Napalm. And US pilots even began to worry if they should use Napalm on enemy troops.
Exactly how much consideration we are supposed to give to people who start wars, run death camps, and fly commercial airplanes into building appears to be TBD.
The voice of god is particularly effective, especially when used by US troops in air conditioned body armor. Superstitions can be used to good effect. At least half of the power of the CIA is embodied in the threat that causes enemies to question their own infallibility. Enter Hugo Chavez and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. After posing for the camera and hurling insults towards the US, they must be comparing notes about cancer warfare after carefully searching rooms for mechanized cockroaches and cyborg cats.
Area weapons can be creepy. I have heard of audio frequencies that force you to lose control of your bowels. The worst one I came across when thumbing through some white papers was a device that could blind anybody within a mile of the device. Some permanently. When the West finally accedes to barbarism and the gloves come off it shall be truly a rude awakening.
“Small Arms and Load Bearing Equipment in the Open”
“WP in Effect, over.”
-Forward Observer with an International Law Degree.
While the US has stated that it will observe the Geneva and Hague conventions rules of warfare it has never signed the agreements.
One soldier, when told it was against the rules of warfare to use .50 caliber rounds on people by some ignorant reporter said, “I never shot at people. I shot at equipment: buttons, helmets, belt buckles, pens, pencils, binoculars, small arms, and various vehicles. On a battle field it is not safe to be around equipment.”
RWE – To piggyback on your point about napalm, I was at Crane Naval Surface Warfare Center in the late 1990′s, and the largest organization wasn’t Navy but was the Crane Army Artillery Activity. At that time they were shipping out napalm for further demilitarization and there was a controversy about having rail cars of the stuff taking it across country for the demil process.
Napalm would have been one of the less dangerous hazardous material transported by rail. It is much safer than transporting gasoline even, which is ubiquitous on our roads and highways. But since napalm is understood to be a weapon it is perceived as having a much greater hazard than gasoline. The irony is that napalm is gasoline, set in a gel.
toadold – LMAO!
#9 Artillery Jokester – is on-target. When I went through Army basic training years ago we were instructed that the .50 was not an anti-personnel weapon but sould be used against enemy equipment such as belts, helmets, etc.
Audie Murphy’s a war criminal for using a .50 on enemy soldiers? What sort of lunatic world are we living in?
I suppose in the broader scheme of things that we should be concerned about how we kill each other even though that thought is difficult to square with the reality that those engaged in combat are fighting to preserve their own lives. Upon what basis could a rational person properly claim the right to tell another that the defense of his own life, or that of his comrades, is limited to “approved” weapons?
I suspect this one of those few clearly defined areas where the abstraction (kindness in combat) so vividly contrasts with its meaningless effect on human beings (dying in combat). The person getting killed by a 7.62 round or a .50 cal round is just as dead.
Was the absence of the use of poison gas in WWII the result of a sudden wellspring of human kindness or a strategic decision?
Here’s one for the Dawkins/Dennett crowd…how does evolutionary biology account for the apparent desire of humans to limit their own ability to survive and reproduce?
And here I was — thinking that the Law of Warfare was “Win”. And do it quickly, with minimum casualties & damage to our side.
Similar to the idea of shooting the .50 caliber at the equipment not the man wearing it is the idea that the punishment for an action isn’t so much for the action itself but rather the breach of discipline and ignorance of a large amount of training that it indicates. In the recent urination incident the punishment being planned isn’t so much about the urination bit, or even an attempt to slake the lust of certain parties for revenge. It’s more that an expectation of a certain behavior has been made clear and extensively trained for. In a place where there is an expectation of adherence to training and the rules around behavior, the breach must be suitably censured. “I said don’t do it and what did you do? You went and did it.”
“Was the absence of the use of poison gas in WWII the result of a sudden wellspring of human kindness or a strategic decision?”
According the Speer, the Nazi’s didn’t use gas because Hitler was gassed in WW1 and wouldn’t use the stuff. Since he didn’t, the Brits didn’t either. Today people forget that Hitler was the german Audi Murphy. In American terms he had the Medal of Honor AND an Army cross (DSC). He had the Blue Max and the Iron cross first class. If he had been an officer, he would have had 2 Knight’s crosses.
Hitler was a nutter, but he was a brave nutter.
I don’t see what the fuss over pissin on dead rag_eads is. I’ll bet they didn’t care.
pb @ 15: Here’s one for the Dawkins/Dennett crowd…how does evolutionary biology account for the apparent desire of humans to limit their own ability to survive and reproduce?
Come on, you can answer that yourself – restraints are needed by successful species to not outrun available resources, we are a social species and a troop of humans all in reasonably good health may have long-term advantages over a larger troop of starving individuals.
Anyway don’t lump Dennett with Dawkins, for gosh sake. Dawkins shot his wad thirty years ago with the “meme” and “selfish gene”, Dennett has a bookshelf of excellent stuff on philosophy of mind, and his evolutionary writings are generally quite good as well, focusing on the mathematics and logical assumptions involved. I suppose Dennett also has some anti-religious writings (that also get occassional mentions in his other works) that I cannot defend on style or substance, but you didn’t ask about those.
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My take on all weapons is still pretty much the bigger the better, and that collateral damage is generally a good thing, and if you don’t agree with both of these points you shouldn’t be firing anything at anybody, or you are not seriously in a “war” in which case see previous point.
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an @ 17: “I said don’t do it and what did you do? You went and did it.”
Right. But what are the procedures if you disobey your CO’s order on something, versus if you are charged with a war crime?
Rules of engagement are an attempt to control the uncontrollable, usually by armchair quarterbacks. The liberal media, by and large, believe all war is wrong so listening to any criticsm from them is pointless, they have no idea what they are talking about. Reporters should not be on the battlefield period. The public at large does not need to know how we kill our enemies, just that we do. If they want to control it, they should join up and physically control it themselves. When you are in the fight all you want to do is kill the man who wants to kill you in the most expeditious manner possible.
18. stoicheion: Never heard any heroic acts attributted to The Little Corporal. Was it because we tend to minimize our enemies (like all the cartoonish depictions of japanese infantry sporting bottle-cap glasses and buck teeth) or were his medals awarded after his rise to office like most banana republic “generals?” I’m sincerely interested if it is the former and you have any historical references you can pass along.
My first thought on the urination incident was “Is THAT all they’ve got to complain about?” followed by an eyeball roll that would have done a teenager proud. The terrorists murder innocents. The marines pee on dead bodies that tried to kill THEM. So who gets condemned for their actions?
I guess the message that 50′s were not anti-personal weapons never got to P-47 ground attack pilots. One of those fellows related that he was flying low after winning a contest over a contested German train in France when he found himself before a long German column of troops. He did two passes. He also said no 47 pilot was under any illusion over what happened to them were they captured by German troops. But then, they were not afraid death any more than the Geneva conventions, they were afraid of fire.
The Marines have tested something called “BZ gas” on volunteers. It apparently causes temporary amnesia, disorientation, and a sense of feeling very warm. It also apparently causes loss of inhibition, because the feeling of being uncomfortably hot led test subjects to doff their clothes — or so I read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incapacitating_agent
If the effects are more or less as advertised, and it works effectively, I would think it should be used on “enemy combatants” (i.e., terrorists who are not nation-affiliated). It ought to be used in extreme hostage situations, where there are a lot of hostages and at least several well-armed and determined hostage takers. Incapacitate everyone and then sort them out.
In Vietnam time was when we were using tear gas to drive the enemy out of caves. Turns out that was considered to be a crime against humanity.
So we went back to the more civilized way of just shooting them.
A 50 cal came in real handy.
21. SpeakEasy
18. stoicheion: Never heard any heroic acts attributted to The Little Corporal.
He was a messenger, running messages from trench-to-trench, often under enemy fire, probably deliberately aimed at him, because the enemy knew what he was up to by his movements. He did not do an Audie Murphy or an Alvin York. He neither killed nor captured anyone. He did do a very brave thing by the nature of his job, and his medals were well-earned.
Stoicheon #18 and Peter Boston #15:
After the war a German general was being interrogated and he asked why the Allies had not used gas. The reply was that we feared the Germans would too. The German general replied:
“Did you not notice that we seized every horse we could find in the occupied countries? We did not have enough fuel for transportation because the Panzers and the Luftwaffe needed it so badly. Even our artillery was mainly horse drawn. Horses will not move if they can’t breath and it is not possible to use a mask on a horse. If you had used gas you would have wiped out our army’s battlefield transportation. Your intelligence people are complete asses!”
A plan was developed in the US to utilize gas for the invasion of Iwo Jima. Neither Japan nor the US had signed the treaty against the use of gas (In fact, Japan used biological warfare against the Chinese). The gas attack was to be combined with jamming of all commiuncations with Iwo Jima and a leak of false information on the development of a new US “death ray.” The plan got approved all the way to the top until it got to FDR, who nixed it.
Minuteman # 11:
You were at Crane, Indiana? (The Navy’s choice of locations for “Navy” bases – Crane, McAlester, OK, China Lake, CA always amuses me). I was looking into using Crane’s overhaul services for my Thors in the late 70’s.
I do not recall the napalm transport controversy, but I do recall an earlier furor over the transport of nerve gas loaded rockets for disposal. People did not realize how deadly were the industrial gases that went by their homes every day. Look up the RR accident in Graniteville, SC.
#19. Josh
Do you not see the contradiction between the Standard Darwinian Model – where natural selection favors the survival and reproductive success of an individual – with “something” that kills off the individual for the good of the other? Where in evolutionary theory does the other even come from?
Whatever else he may be Dennett is a naturalist. Have you seen Alvin Plantinga’s persuasive argument why Darwinian evolution and naturalism cannot reliably exist together in the same mind?
Hmmmm…has no one heard of the .50cal sniper rifle?
Indian soldiers, or sepoys, were were somehow convinced were were somehow convinced that the British impregnated their paper cartridges with a sacrilegious types of animal fat.
They didn’t have to be convinced by eloquence, or even by slander. When the Brits replaced their Brown Bess smoothbores with muzzle-loading Enfield rifles, the cartridges were indeed coated with a mixture of cow fat and pig fat, and the riflemen had to bite the tops off of them, then pour the powder down the bore, then ram the greased bullet down the rifled barrel. Cow and pig fat offended Hindus and Muslims both, and after the first wave of offense, the lubrication was changed too late for anyone to believe that those foul substances weren’t still in use.
The Last Mughal, William Dalyrimple, Alfred A. Knopf 2008
22. SwampWoman
Darn right!! These guys go around beating, mutilating, and stoning women; buggering boys; cutting heads off journalists; and blowing up civilians. After the urinating their bodies should have been left for dogs.
pb @ 28: Do you not see the contradiction between the Standard Darwinian Model – where natural selection favors the survival and reproductive success of an individual – with “something” that kills off the individual for the good of the other? Where in evolutionary theory does the other even come from?
You can’t have survival factors unless there are death factors. Evolution is a very complicated doctrine, and it really didn’t make a lot of headway in its simplest forms, even in scientific circles, until they got around to population dynamics and genetic mechanisms in the later (1940+) twentieth century.
Whatever else he may be Dennett is a naturalist. Have you seen Alvin Plantinga’s persuasive argument why Darwinian evolution and naturalism cannot reliably exist together in the same mind?
Dennett is certainly a naturalist, and I believe he could look at religion in those terms too and be much more positive about it. I’ve read Plantinga, but don’t recall that specific point. I reject any kind of teleological explanations no matter which side presents them, pro or con.
@26 Don Rodrigo. I believe he received his Iron Cross – First Class during the French 1917 Offensive at the Chemin des Dames. He captured a shellhole position full of French Poilus by the ruse of sneaking up on the shellhole and shouting that they should surrender as they were surrounded (it was only him). The role of Message Runner was not for the faint of heart, as it became considered a death sentence in that casualties were extremely high. Hitler volunteered for the duty. Not surprisingly Hitler became enamored of the idea that he was “being preserved” for some greater moment. Not a terribly comforting thought in any event.
@5. stoicheion
“The best estimate is every dollar spent on weapons research return 10$ to the US economy.”
That’s the message that the MIC has been driving home almost as long as the Democrats have been claiming that SS is a sustainable entitlement. Obama now claims that the Fed made money on all those bailouts, that the UAW bailout (GM & Chrysler) has earned them money, that unemployment is 8.5% and inflation is 2%. Wanna buy a bridge?
Anyway, RT again exposes what the real agenda is:
Battlefield US: Pentagon arms police departments with free heavy weaponry
“You can thank Uncle Sam, the Department of Defense and your own American tax dollars for the 1033 Program, an initiative that is giving hundreds of millions of bucks’ worth of military hardware from the DoD and putting it in the hands of your favorite neighborhood cop.
In 2011 alone, the Department of Defense forked over roughly $500 million worth of military machinery to law enforcement agencies coast-to-coast that would have been left otherwise unused. In many instances, however, the goods are grabbed by sheriffs in smaller jurisdictions that don’t have much need for the weaponry, other than to install fear within the community.
…
That doesn’t mean that they are the only small towns that scoop up these deals from the military, though. In Hanceville, Alabama, for example, the fewer than 3,000 citizens of the southern American town have already accumulated more than $250,000 in military equipment, reports the Cullman Times. Aiken, South California, substantially larger with 29,494 residents as per the 2010 Census, has benefited from the program to the tune of $100,000 since 2010, but mostly for items such as first-aid kits and boots, local officials say.
In nearby Richland County, however, the local sheriff can now cavort around town in a machine-gun ready personal carrier that he likes to call “The Peacemaker.”
“The dynamic is that you have some officer go to the chief and say, people in next county have [military equipment], if we don’t take it some other city will,” adds the Cato Institute’s Lynch. “Then they acquire the equipment, they create a paramilitary unit, and everything seems fine.”
…
Sheriff Daniel T. McEathron told NV Daily last year, “If somebody looks out and sees a Ford Crown Victoria sitting out there, they may not take you very seriously, but if they look out the window and see this thing sitting there, they’re going to know you’re serious.”
This thing? That’s a Lenco BearCat G3, a bulletproof, off-road-capable, 8-ton armored vehicle that the Minnesota county sheriff managed to pick up for a price of $237,000 — all covered with a federal grant.
…
Attorney Arthur Rizer asks The Daily, “If we’re training cops as soldiers, giving them equipment like soldiers, dressing them up as soldiers, when are they going to pick up the mentality of soldiers?”
“If you look at the police department, their creed is to protect and to serve. A soldier’s mission is to engage his enemy in close combat and kill him. Do we want police officers to have that mentality? Of course not.” “
And that is the real issue. Do you want some trigger happy 18 year old marine or even a local police officer firing .50 caliber machine guns or even sniper rifles into a local anti-government protest in your town?
18. stoicheion
Someone’s crossing over Goring’s medals with Hitler’s.
He got the Iron Cross FIRST CLASS.
As an enlisted man that was very, very rare.
He chronically volunteered for ‘suicide missions’ , that is running messages AFTER the phone lines were blown up from British artillery. ( He never served on the French front. Hence, his respect for the British, beyond all other enemy soldiers. )
—–
During the 1923 putsch Hitler bravely stood with Goring and Ludendorff…
Nationally recognized WWI heroes….
Any wonder why no bullets came their way?
c.f. Tannenberg; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tannenberg_%281914%29
blert @36: I’ve got a bit of a quibble with your assertion that Hitler did not face the French in combat. The 6th Bavarian Reserve Division with its constituent 16th Regiment (List Regiment) were transferred to Upper Alsace for rest/refit in August 1917 and then to the Chemin des Dames front. The division participated in the German Spring Offensives at the Aisne and the Marne (facing the French and then the Americans). They were reassigned back to their old front of Flanders in August 1918. Now that is probably enough Hitler talk on a post called the “Voice of God” for me.
He was in the hospital for months — right on through the period mentioned.
“He chronically volunteered for ‘suicide missions’ , that is running messages AFTER the phone lines were blown up from British artillery. ( He never served on the French front. Hence, his respect for the British, beyond all other enemy soldiers. )”
What’s going on here.
Hitler was a runner. Running was his job.
Where did all the decorations come from. I have only read that he won the Iron Cross.
2d Lt. Murphy –
and in reference to some recent news – piss on them
The .50 cal round is may be considered illegal for use by some who aren’t in the military, but the military knows full well there’s no prohibition in using it. Read Mark Bowden’s Blackhawk Down; the US Army Rangers openly discussed their use of the M2 during that fight.
And if there’s some illusion about .50 cal having to target “equipment”, then consider the Barrett M82 used by snipers. That’s meant for sniping personnel, not equipment. Andne of the long distance sniping records – made by a Canadian soldier during action in Afghanistan – was made with a .50 cal TAC-50.
I have read that the International Red Cross was attempting to have nations accept the arguement that a *specific* .50 cal round (the Raufoss Mk 211) was illegal, but that was a specific case. And it hasn’t seemed to have gotten much traction anyway.
http://www.worldwar1.com/heritage/hitler.htm
Weblink to a Chronology of Hitler’s WWI service.
“The Voice of God”? That will be difficult, as John Facenda died in 1984.
Audie Murphy was a great American and a patriot. Any slander against his memory should be treated with utter contempt.
davod @ 39 said:
“Where did all the decorations come from. I have only read that he won the Iron Cross.”
Almost all Germans who served in WW-I were awarded the Iron Cross Second Class including Hitler (they deserved it). However, award of the Iron Cross First Class was a big deal and rarely given to a corporal (Gefreiter). Hugo Gutmann was the officer who recommended that the Iron Cross First Class be given to Hitler. It’s ironic that the military decoration enabling Hitler’s political career was given to him by a an officer who was Jewish (he received the Iron Cross Second Class). Gutmann’s biography is interesting (he died in the US), refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Gutmann
Hitler was one of the worst human beings who ever lived but his courage in combat was beyond dispute. The story about Hitler and Henry Tandey VC is of interest, refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Tandey
re: hitler and his running and whatever he was — whatever he did was – very – wrong
my father popped a runner – a bicycle currier – at a distance of a mile or more – he had something better than a .50 – a crew fed 105 – it worked good – they did what needed to be done – and the proof of that is that we are here now with our ‘putes, commenting. God may have mercy on their souls – but the more relevant point is – God has them, not us, and for that fact – we can thank the mortals who did these things – call it nasty if you wish – i know it is also necessary.
the .50 is a very good round for individual use – it is no different than any other cartridge – it’s a bit-o-lead, fired from a rifle – or in Audies case a tank mounted machine gun – i wonder how he was able to feed it and keep it going by himself – there’s a lot more to it than just pulling a trigger – good on him.
in any case – war is hell – prepare thyself to go there, or stay away – don’t criticize those who prepare and go, despite the unsanitary results – they do it, and we can sit in our warm houses and discuss opinions –
Confederate H:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/laura-ingraham-and-sen-jim-demint-warn-conservatives-not-to-ignore-ron-paul-and-his-policies/
If only Bryan Preston and PJM would listen to DeMint. It’s not about a particular 76-year-old, it’s about a movement.
James Wilson #213:
I read of a personal account of a P-47 pilot in WWII who was shot down and badly burned.
He was lying there in agony and a couple of German soldiers came up, artillerymen. He could speak German very well and they started asking him why he attacked them the way he did. It was so unfair, they said, that they were attacked and so often badly hurt when they were not even in position to fire yet. Did he not understand they could not do their jobs if they were attacked while still on the roads? And they went on to point out that they were using horses to tow the guns and even the horses were often killed by the “jabo” attacks. It just was not fair, in their view, for the Allies to have such overwhelming airpower and such effective ground attack aircraft and to use it to prevent them from even getting into position to use their artillery pieces.
There was even one P-47 pilot who caught a German unit out in a large field, with no cover – and they surrendered to him, waving white flags.
When the US Army invaded the German city of Aachen, the Germans retreated and finally holed up in the city’s opera house, a large, heavily built building made out of stone. They had prepared supplies of ammo, food and water in the building and figured they could hold out months. And then the US Army brought up tracked 155MM artillery and fired at the opera house from a few hundred feet away, beinging the place down around the Germans’ ears. The Germans surrendered and their commander stated that the use of such heavy artillery in direct fire applications should be outlawed.
So the perception of “War Crimes” in combat depends on where you sit.
“Someone’s crossing over Goring’s medals with Hitler’s.”
No, what I was trying to do was give meaning to Hitler’s decorations by establishing a rough correspondence between German and American decorations. I failed, obviously.
The German military is organised in a very different manner then the US Military.
The best example of that might be von Luck, who as a major commanded a recon battalion. As a LT. Col he commanded a division. In the German Army promotion was commanding a larger formation. Rank was slightly different. Under the American scheme, a Battalion was commanded by a colonel or Lt. Col. IF a Major was given a battlefield promotion to command a Battalion, the rank went with it. The Medal structure was different also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_decorations_of_the_Third_Reich
I should have found a better way to make my point, which was Hitler was a very brave fellow, who faced death unflinching many times.
39. davod
Being ‘a runner’ was not a regular position within the Table of Organization & Equipment.
All communication was by way of land-line telephone — with the occasional radio-teletype towards the end of the war. ( Lt. Guderian cut his teeth this way. )
Runners ( suicide volunteers ) were requested after enemy artillery destroyed so many phone lines that extreme measures were required.
The tit-for-tat: medals, promotions, — and time off in the rear — IF you survived it.
It was SO dangerous that it was strictly voluntary / punishment duty.
All of the armies tried to eliminate enemy runners as priority #1 — and reduce the number of runners that they themselves employed.
During our Pacific Campaigns of WWII we used dogs for this mission. Even with their low profile and high speed dogs suffered brutal losses — three out of four when it really counted.
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Iron Cross FIRST CLASS to a living enlisted man in WWI was highly unusual. IIRC less than twenty enlisted men so received it.
By comparison Iron Crosses 2nd class were ten-a-penny.
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The German and American military awards — in a way — are inverted: our officers have a very small chance of receiving MoH — even when serving side by side with enlisteds who did get the MoH. Witness the captain vs the sgt so recent in the news.
In the German Army the highest medals are exclusive to top ranking officers.
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Circa 1923, having an Iron Cross First Class gave Adolf street cred — a most unfortunate situation.
Adolf’s ‘bravery’ — ‘marching with Ludendorff’ — was sarcastic.
Talk about life insurance!
stoicheion @48…you didn’t fail there. The correspending medal v.medal is mostly accurate. How they were distributed was culturally different. The fact that Hitler was awarded an Iron Cross – First Class was very significant in that corporals just didn’t get those. It was unfortunate, like Henry Tandey’s decision not to shoot, or Germany’s decision to allow Vladimir Ulyanov’s transport through Sweden to Russia.
Hitler was a well documented war hero, and that gave him the credibilty to become…what he became. Ludendorff being icing on his cake, so to speak. The fact that Hitler declined promotion to Corporal speaks strongly to his belief that he was “untouchable”…the promotion would have taken him out of the messenger service pool. Blert is correct in noting that the messenger service was just about the most dangerous duty there was in trench warfare. So here we are, still mental prisoners (in a weird way) of Gavrilo Princip’s urge to make Serbia “greater”.
http://evilbloggerlady.blogspot.com/2012/01/congressman-allen-west-says-it-best.html Congressman Allen West says it best, if you have not been there you are really not in a position to judge. Now civilians who have not served still have a voice. But Congressman West is right that this fake outrage needs to be toned down a notch.
As for Audie Murphy…he was a hero and no war criminal. And he would have been likely killed if he did not do what he did.
#46 “it’s about a movement.”
**
Yes, and it is a movement that for years has called everyone else RINO’s, war-mongers, Zionists, war criminals, etc etc, and all the while saying they will never vote for an “establishment” republican. If this movement is now taking some return fire it is to be expected. After all, they will never vote for anyone other than a Ron Paul clone. What is the point in kowtowing to them? Ron Paul has spread his conspiricy theories about repubs all over the landscape but now expects to be treated with the proper respect.
Didn’t the first Medal of Honor winner of the Iraq invasion perform his heroic feat manning a 50 cal?
“The liberal media, by and large, believe all war is wrong so listening to any criticism from them is pointless, they have no idea what they are talking about.”
I respectfully disagree. They know exactly what they are talking about and we should listen because it is a window on their souls. I have seen glowing articles in the ultimate liberal media standard bearer, “The Nation” extolling and romanticizing the virtues of Central American “freedom fighters”. If they were truly “anti-war”, they would be as outraged about those guys’ violent activities as they are about whatever the US military does. They are not “anti-war”, they are on the other side. Certainly not so much now that their homey is Commander in Chief, but just wait until a GOP CinC.
An old joke tells about a little girl at the Bronx zoo who is grabbed by a lion and taken into the cage. A passing Marine charges in, bops the lion on the nose and rescues the little girl. A New York Times reporter witnesses the whole thing. The next day the NYT headline reads: “US Marine assaults African immigrant and steals his lunch!”.
Never willingly give the enemy an opportunity, foreign or domestic. I question the horse sense (or lack of it) of, not a soldier pissing on a taliban, but a soldier video recording it. Taliban drenched in urine offends me not in the least, and given that a taliban is nothing more than a backstabbing throat cutter, I consider the urine episode a fitting tribute to the character of this adversary. But I don’t want to know about it. I don’t want to find out about it, by virtue of video evidence. How would vid of the thing serve but a fleeting release of tension for others, but also in fact serve also as evidence for the Murtha core of enemies domestic, who would hang you by your neck to damage the cause of your fellow soldiers and advance their political ambitions? A taliban drenched in urine is indeed a tribute considering the atrocities they get away with, and are given a pass, by western media. The issue is how it affects the morale of the troops, and I trust the U.S. military to maintain it’s honor, by virtue of the discipline and punishment it will and has meted out regarding conduct befitting or unbefitting. Turning the enemy into a latrine is not a problem but the vid is.
This reminds me of a joke in our household. My husband and I have both at various times suffered bouts of depression. We were prescribed different anti-depressants, and we finally took to referring to them all as “the Dum Dum Pills”.
“Yes, and it is a movement that for years has called everyone else RINO’s, war-mongers…” the war-monger epithet is in some cases deserved. Did you listen to McCain singing ‘Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran in 2008? And when the gubm’t gets bigger and bigger regardless of Republicans being in power, what term would you prefer but RINO?
And then there was the small matter of McCain’s top foreign policy advisor Randy Scheunemann being on the payroll of the country he wanted to commit American blood and treasure to defending from Russia AFTER that tie-eating President had stupidly attacked a Russian-backed separatist enclave that he’d already lost a war to (Saakashvili).
“If this movement is now taking some return fire it is to be expected.” They’re not taking ‘return fire’, they’re being demonized as nuts, 9-11 Truthers (that’s only a tiny minority of Ron Paul supporters, and certainly not Paul himself simply because he doesn’t refuse to speak to some people who are Truthers) etc etc etc. Only a few MSM types ever asked Reagan to disavow the John Birchers, whereupon he replied that they were endorsing him, not the other way around — even after Reagan had taken the Birch Society newsletter for years. Apparently such an answer from Paul is never acceptable.
You act as if the poor little Republican Establishment, including certain talk radio hosts, hasn’t had this comeuppance due for years. That goes for El Rushbo and Hannity. Their objections to Bush’s expansion of government and executive power were weak, at best, and their equating loading companies up with debt and leaving the employees and not the PE investors on the street with capitalism is misleading.
What do you owe the GOP insiders and the people that run Fox News and the RNC? Did they get you a job when you were kicked to the curb in 2008 or 2009? No.
Ergo, I don’t owe them a damn thing, and neither do you.
I don’t remember where I saw this, maybe the history channel, but Roman tourists used to sail over to Sparta to see Spartans dressed up as the once mighty Spartan warriors of old recreating their famous battles for the tourist trade, and making some money. Perhaps the first re-enactors.
I went through the Geneva conventions laws about weapons use and found the use of only certain weapons was banned for use against civilians, ie; fire, gas, non detectable fragments in fragmentary devices etc.
The .50 caliber Machine gun is considered an anti personnel and anti material weapon it is not against the law to shoot infantry/humans with it.
Use of exploding or expanding ammo on humans infantry is.
The main idea was, The .50 BMG HB was mounted on the vehicle Murphy was shooting from was meant to be used as an anti aircraft weapon, as in “The Tank destroyers anti aircraft weapon station” it was not illegal to use that same .50 weapon against enemy personnel.
Anti aircraft fragmentary, exploding, incendiary ammo is illegal to use but was considered illegal only in weapons above .50 caliber such as the 88 mm Nazi dual purpose cannon or the various AAA 20 mm weapons which fired only exploding/incendiary (flak rounds) shells.
I spent four years in the Marines and was never told at any time that any weapon I was trained to shoot was illegal to use on human infantry.
I was instructed that using large caliber .50 or above weapons was over kill against infantry and if you had a 7.62 x 51 mm weapon use it as a better expenditure of ammo.
WP in target marking smoke shells is not illegal to use against human targets.
The easy way to find out is to study the rules of land warfare and even Wikipedia can show whats illegal and what is not.
The Liberal anti war folks would have us believe harsh language against our enemies is too much pain inflicted and illegal, well, Piss on the wussy bass turds then.
Well then every American tank commander and pre-Bradley mech infantry squad leader is a war criminal as the Browning M2HB has been a feature on American armored fighting vehicles since it’s development. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that if it doesn’t have an M2HB on top then it isn’t an American AFV (Bradley? I rest my case
) I’ll make a small exception for the M85 50 Cal that appeared on the M60 series MBT’s I suspect at the urging of McNamara’s whizz-punks. It’s not an M2HB but it was a .50 cal. Akshully methinks it predated McNasty but the narrative is too good to let go. 
And unless Audie filed down the points to make some sort of dumdum round which *is* proscribed I’d say if you find the yahoos who are trying to foist this narrative upon you to piss on em. I’ve heard there’s a coupla devil dogs that might be able to help.