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	<title>Comments on: Better Late Than Never</title>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98439</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 03:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98439</guid>
		<description>Actually, they cleaned up in the Herero War. Not that that was anywhere near a fair fight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_War</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, they cleaned up in the Herero War. Not that that was anywhere near a fair fight.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_War" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_War</a></p>
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		<title>By: jsallison</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98426</link>
		<dc:creator>jsallison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Better the palm tree of the Afrika Korps, than the cherry blossom of the rapists of Nanking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Better the palm tree of the Afrika Korps, than the cherry blossom of the rapists of Nanking.</p>
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		<title>By: jsallison</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98425</link>
		<dc:creator>jsallison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:49:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Don&#039;t have a problem with adopting a symbol, suitably modified for post modern sensibilities, of a group that has been credited with fighting a &#039;clean&#039; fight.  I used to paint a coat of arms on the side of my turret reminiscent of the teevee show Paladin, so sue me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t have a problem with adopting a symbol, suitably modified for post modern sensibilities, of a group that has been credited with fighting a &#8216;clean&#8217; fight.  I used to paint a coat of arms on the side of my turret reminiscent of the teevee show Paladin, so sue me.</p>
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		<title>By: chrisa</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98409</link>
		<dc:creator>chrisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 01:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I was gonna jump in re Germany, but others seemed to have handled it well, except for that one arrogant snivel dude.

Germany seems to be pretty good on a theatre-by-theatre basis, so as long as this conflict doesn&#039;t expand to Pakistan, Iran, etc., perhaps they&#039;ll be a plus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was gonna jump in re Germany, but others seemed to have handled it well, except for that one arrogant snivel dude.</p>
<p>Germany seems to be pretty good on a theatre-by-theatre basis, so as long as this conflict doesn&#8217;t expand to Pakistan, Iran, etc., perhaps they&#8217;ll be a plus.</p>
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		<title>By: Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98403</link>
		<dc:creator>Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 19:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98403</guid>
		<description>Mauther #10:

The Afrika Korps &quot;incident&quot; seems overstated to me. So they took the Afrika Korps symbol, which was a palm tree over a swastika, and replaced the swastika with a Maltese cross, the symbol of the modern Bundeswehr? Good Heavens what a scandal!

Besides which, in all respects (number and activity of Nazi functionaries, ratio of pure military action to war crimes and atrocities), the Afrika Korps, or all Wehrmacht formations, was perhaps the closest to the modern German myth of good soldiers doing their duty without the taint of Nazism.

just sayin&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mauther #10:</p>
<p>The Afrika Korps &#8220;incident&#8221; seems overstated to me. So they took the Afrika Korps symbol, which was a palm tree over a swastika, and replaced the swastika with a Maltese cross, the symbol of the modern Bundeswehr? Good Heavens what a scandal!</p>
<p>Besides which, in all respects (number and activity of Nazi functionaries, ratio of pure military action to war crimes and atrocities), the Afrika Korps, or all Wehrmacht formations, was perhaps the closest to the modern German myth of good soldiers doing their duty without the taint of Nazism.</p>
<p>just sayin&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Mauther</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98377</link>
		<dc:creator>Mauther</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98377</guid>
		<description>While I&#039;m certainly glad to see our allies stepping up, I don&#039;t know that I want to see the Germans getting back into that business.  I view German militarism much the same way I view the New Kids on the Block.  I&#039;m not a fan or their original work and have no interest in seeing a new tour.

Besides, they seem to jump back into bad habits a little too quickly. For instance the Afrika Corp incident from 2006
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&amp;sid=aGLhkIItQqns&amp;refer=germany</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I&#8217;m certainly glad to see our allies stepping up, I don&#8217;t know that I want to see the Germans getting back into that business.  I view German militarism much the same way I view the New Kids on the Block.  I&#8217;m not a fan or their original work and have no interest in seeing a new tour.</p>
<p>Besides, they seem to jump back into bad habits a little too quickly. For instance the Afrika Corp incident from 2006<br />
<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&#038;sid=aGLhkIItQqns&#038;refer=germany" rel="nofollow">http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&#038;sid=aGLhkIItQqns&#038;refer=germany</a></p>
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		<title>By: Janus Daniels</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98372</link>
		<dc:creator>Janus Daniels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 20:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98372</guid>
		<description>7. McGehee:
Please forgive my ignorance for thinking, as our generals (Army War College, etc.) predicted and confirmed, that the Republicans trashed diplomacy, that Iraq had no WMDs, that attacking Iraq was a fiasco, that invading Iraq was a disaster, that occupying Iraq required tens of thousands more troops and hundreds of billions more dollars.
Imagine my relief, now that you have revealed that I was wrong.
Yet, Petraeus and Odierno  Shinseki seemed to do well, once they got a chance to.
Too late for thousands of our dead troops, and tens of thousands of maimed, blinded, crippled, and brain damaged troops.
Do you really imagine that you know better than they?
http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ssi/pubs/2003/bounding/bounding.pdf 
(Alternately, if you can name a general on your side, do so.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>7. McGehee:<br />
Please forgive my ignorance for thinking, as our generals (Army War College, etc.) predicted and confirmed, that the Republicans trashed diplomacy, that Iraq had no WMDs, that attacking Iraq was a fiasco, that invading Iraq was a disaster, that occupying Iraq required tens of thousands more troops and hundreds of billions more dollars.<br />
Imagine my relief, now that you have revealed that I was wrong.<br />
Yet, Petraeus and Odierno  Shinseki seemed to do well, once they got a chance to.<br />
Too late for thousands of our dead troops, and tens of thousands of maimed, blinded, crippled, and brain damaged troops.<br />
Do you really imagine that you know better than they?<br />
<a href="http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ssi/pubs/2003/bounding/bounding.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.carlisle.army.mil/ssi/pubs/2003/bounding/bounding.pdf</a><br />
(Alternately, if you can name a general on your side, do so.)</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98370</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98370</guid>
		<description>Casey needs to dust off his own history books. 

In WWI the Austro-Hungarians were a liability that constantly needed German help against the Russians (although they did hold their own against the Italians). He also fails to account for the respective empires of the British and French, that collectively included roughly half of the world. When you add the US you get pretty darn close to &quot;the rest of the world&quot;. By the end the Germans were retreating because their last desperate gamble to win the war before too many Americans arrived had failed. It didn&#039;t help that they conscripted so many men from their agricultural sector that they were starving from the Allied blockade as well.

In WWII the Germans defeated the French, British expeditionary force, Belgians and Dutch in six weeks despite being outnumbered (even in tanks). In the the east the Germans killed approximately eight Soviet soldiers for each of their own killed, despite being consistently outnumbered. They were only defeated due to the massive superiority in men, material and logistical capacity arrayed against them. Even against the American army the Germans were superior on a unit-to-unit basis, even with massive inferiority in aerial support.

The 20th century German army was not composed of super-men, but it was the best-led force. By leadership I am referring to the NCO corps (the backbone of any army) and the officers, certainly not the civilian leadership. The average division of the German army could defeat the average division of any other army in the world in either of the world wars. Fortunately for us, the numbers were anything but equal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Casey needs to dust off his own history books. </p>
<p>In WWI the Austro-Hungarians were a liability that constantly needed German help against the Russians (although they did hold their own against the Italians). He also fails to account for the respective empires of the British and French, that collectively included roughly half of the world. When you add the US you get pretty darn close to &#8220;the rest of the world&#8221;. By the end the Germans were retreating because their last desperate gamble to win the war before too many Americans arrived had failed. It didn&#8217;t help that they conscripted so many men from their agricultural sector that they were starving from the Allied blockade as well.</p>
<p>In WWII the Germans defeated the French, British expeditionary force, Belgians and Dutch in six weeks despite being outnumbered (even in tanks). In the the east the Germans killed approximately eight Soviet soldiers for each of their own killed, despite being consistently outnumbered. They were only defeated due to the massive superiority in men, material and logistical capacity arrayed against them. Even against the American army the Germans were superior on a unit-to-unit basis, even with massive inferiority in aerial support.</p>
<p>The 20th century German army was not composed of super-men, but it was the best-led force. By leadership I am referring to the NCO corps (the backbone of any army) and the officers, certainly not the civilian leadership. The average division of the German army could defeat the average division of any other army in the world in either of the world wars. Fortunately for us, the numbers were anything but equal.</p>
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		<title>By: McGehee</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98368</link>
		<dc:creator>McGehee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 19:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98368</guid>
		<description>No Janus -- the ones who were &lt;i&gt;right.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Janus &#8212; the ones who were <i>right.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Janus Daniels</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98363</link>
		<dc:creator>Janus Daniels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98363</guid>
		<description>&quot;... so long as the pacifist-in-chief keeps the hell out of the way of the generals running the show.&quot;
You mean the generals who told us that we should boost diplomacy, that Iraq had no WMDs, that attacking Iraq would be stupid, that invading Iraq would be a disaster, that occupying Iraq would require tens of thousands more troops and hundreds of billions more dollars, etc?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230; so long as the pacifist-in-chief keeps the hell out of the way of the generals running the show.&#8221;<br />
You mean the generals who told us that we should boost diplomacy, that Iraq had no WMDs, that attacking Iraq would be stupid, that invading Iraq would be a disaster, that occupying Iraq would require tens of thousands more troops and hundreds of billions more dollars, etc?</p>
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		<title>By: Casey</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98351</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98351</guid>
		<description>Willy and tim need to dust off those ole history books and do a little review.

In WW1, the German Empire fought alongside the Austrian Empire. I&#039;m not counting the miscellaneous small fry on the Central Powers side. On the other hand, we had France, Britain, and Russia. Italy joined a year after the start of the war. 

We can ignore Russia and Austria, since most of the time they took turns shooting massive blanks logistically and strategically. Italy never accomplished much, just as they didn&#039;t 25 years later.

So it was mostly Britain and France against Germany, with France doing most of the heavy lifting early on. Germany&#039;s population was around 65 million, Britain&#039;s about 46 million (counting Ireland) and France about 40 million. This gives 86 million vs. 65 million. Even that&#039;s not anything near a &quot;Germany against the world&quot; ratio, and we haven&#039;t deducted the Irish yet.

In 1940, we had German c. 80 million, Britain can&#039;t find offhand, and France c. 40 million. Considering that France dropped out after 10 months, and Britain fought on alone for another year before the Soviets were attacked, we again fail to have a &quot;Germany against the world&quot; scenario.

And, no, WW1 was not a tie; when Germany signed the Armistice the Allies were chivvying German forces eastward at a rapid pace. Absent an armistice, the Allies would have over-run most of Germany by the end of 1918. 

And (again) no, it didn&#039;t take six years to defeat Nazi Germany, since the Soviet Union didn&#039;t join until June 1941, and America in December 1941. Taking the latter date, it took three and a half years to defeat the Nazis, and William is ignoring the tremendous challenge of crossing the Channel against armed opposition.

So let&#039;s not build the Germans into supermen. They tried that once themselves, and look what happened. :)

All that said, if one uses a balanced and rational approach, it is possible to say that man-for-man, the 20th century German Army was tactically better than most of their opponents. In 1940, they were probably the most effective land army in the world. Alas for Germany, (as Rommel observed) the Americans started out knowing less, and learning faster than anyone else in the world.

One must conclude that German soldiers are usually of high quality, but are neither losers nor super-heroes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Willy and tim need to dust off those ole history books and do a little review.</p>
<p>In WW1, the German Empire fought alongside the Austrian Empire. I&#8217;m not counting the miscellaneous small fry on the Central Powers side. On the other hand, we had France, Britain, and Russia. Italy joined a year after the start of the war. </p>
<p>We can ignore Russia and Austria, since most of the time they took turns shooting massive blanks logistically and strategically. Italy never accomplished much, just as they didn&#8217;t 25 years later.</p>
<p>So it was mostly Britain and France against Germany, with France doing most of the heavy lifting early on. Germany&#8217;s population was around 65 million, Britain&#8217;s about 46 million (counting Ireland) and France about 40 million. This gives 86 million vs. 65 million. Even that&#8217;s not anything near a &#8220;Germany against the world&#8221; ratio, and we haven&#8217;t deducted the Irish yet.</p>
<p>In 1940, we had German c. 80 million, Britain can&#8217;t find offhand, and France c. 40 million. Considering that France dropped out after 10 months, and Britain fought on alone for another year before the Soviets were attacked, we again fail to have a &#8220;Germany against the world&#8221; scenario.</p>
<p>And, no, WW1 was not a tie; when Germany signed the Armistice the Allies were chivvying German forces eastward at a rapid pace. Absent an armistice, the Allies would have over-run most of Germany by the end of 1918. </p>
<p>And (again) no, it didn&#8217;t take six years to defeat Nazi Germany, since the Soviet Union didn&#8217;t join until June 1941, and America in December 1941. Taking the latter date, it took three and a half years to defeat the Nazis, and William is ignoring the tremendous challenge of crossing the Channel against armed opposition.</p>
<p>So let&#8217;s not build the Germans into supermen. They tried that once themselves, and look what happened. <img src='http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>All that said, if one uses a balanced and rational approach, it is possible to say that man-for-man, the 20th century German Army was tactically better than most of their opponents. In 1940, they were probably the most effective land army in the world. Alas for Germany, (as Rommel observed) the Americans started out knowing less, and learning faster than anyone else in the world.</p>
<p>One must conclude that German soldiers are usually of high quality, but are neither losers nor super-heroes.</p>
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		<title>By: tim maguire</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98347</link>
		<dc:creator>tim maguire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98347</guid>
		<description>William&#039;s right. Twice in the space of 25 years German armies marched out to take on the world almost single handedly and damn-near pulled it off both times. If you ignore the rest (granting that it is a lot to ignore), you have to admire them for that at least.

My problem with the wussification is that it is not so far from militarism as we may imagine. It&#039;s the other side of the same coin, they were extreme in war and are extreme in peace. I&#039;ll relax when they stop being extreme.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William&#8217;s right. Twice in the space of 25 years German armies marched out to take on the world almost single handedly and damn-near pulled it off both times. If you ignore the rest (granting that it is a lot to ignore), you have to admire them for that at least.</p>
<p>My problem with the wussification is that it is not so far from militarism as we may imagine. It&#8217;s the other side of the same coin, they were extreme in war and are extreme in peace. I&#8217;ll relax when they stop being extreme.</p>
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		<title>By: NukemHill</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98346</link>
		<dc:creator>NukemHill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98346</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Just try to forget that Germany hasn’t thrown a winning war since 1871.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Just so long as they&#039;re just attending these wars, and not headlining, I&#039;m okay with that.  If they pull their weight, we&#039;ll take full advantage of their skills.  Well, so long as the pacifist-in-chief keeps the hell out of the way of the generals running the show.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Just try to forget that Germany hasn’t thrown a winning war since 1871.</p></blockquote>
<p>Just so long as they&#8217;re just attending these wars, and not headlining, I&#8217;m okay with that.  If they pull their weight, we&#8217;ll take full advantage of their skills.  Well, so long as the pacifist-in-chief keeps the hell out of the way of the generals running the show.</p>
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		<title>By: William Youn</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98344</link>
		<dc:creator>William Youn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98344</guid>
		<description>Well, to be fair, the last two wars Germany fought in were billed as &quot;Germany v. Rest of World,&quot; and it took the rest of the world a heckuva lot of time and resources to beat Germany. And round WW1 was settled by the refs as a &quot;draw.&quot; It took round WW2 for a KO and the &quot;rest of world&quot; to claim the title, and it took the &quot;rest of the world&quot; nearly 6 years to do that.

That said, you have to laugh at the PTSD stats in the article. &quot;Just the thought of it can be stressful.&quot; Our NATO &quot;allies&quot; need to grow some serious stones and stop being pussies. In Germany&#039;s case, I do mind the wussification...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, to be fair, the last two wars Germany fought in were billed as &#8220;Germany v. Rest of World,&#8221; and it took the rest of the world a heckuva lot of time and resources to beat Germany. And round WW1 was settled by the refs as a &#8220;draw.&#8221; It took round WW2 for a KO and the &#8220;rest of world&#8221; to claim the title, and it took the &#8220;rest of the world&#8221; nearly 6 years to do that.</p>
<p>That said, you have to laugh at the PTSD stats in the article. &#8220;Just the thought of it can be stressful.&#8221; Our NATO &#8220;allies&#8221; need to grow some serious stones and stop being pussies. In Germany&#8217;s case, I do mind the wussification&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: rbj</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2009/07/07/better-late-than-never-8/#comment-98343</link>
		<dc:creator>rbj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:55:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/vodkapundit/?p=12741#comment-98343</guid>
		<description>While I am ticked off that many NATO members are wimping out in the GWOT (or whatever the nom de jour is) and wish they&#039;d take more responsibility for their own defense, in Germany&#039;s case I do not mind the wussification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I am ticked off that many NATO members are wimping out in the GWOT (or whatever the nom de jour is) and wish they&#8217;d take more responsibility for their own defense, in Germany&#8217;s case I do not mind the wussification.</p>
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