Where Did Our Real Wealth Go?
The Greek Lesson
No, I don’t mean the classical Greeks, but their present-day counterparts.
Economists have given us all the usual diagnoses of what went wrong in a now bankrupt Greece — high taxes, tax cheating, too generous retirements, unsustainable entitlements, government corruption, and anemic demography.
Add to such socialism the natural foreign policy and collective expressions that always follow statism in the modern Western world — increased pacifism, utopian pretension, moral equivalence, cheap anti-Americanism — and we have the foreign policy expression of Greece (and much of the EU) of the last 30 years. (A citizen who believes by birthright that he is to be taken care of by the state always hates the state that can never do enough, in the fashion that the country who is taken care of militarily always hates its protector.)
In other words, Greece is the canary in the mine of the impending crack-up of the modern welfare state. It is a great gift to us all, this example. A year ago, the socialists, even as they were juggling and falsifying their books, were bragging that the Wall Street meltdown was a referendum — and capitalism was doomed. Now, the entire socialist dream is exposed and even the most ardent statist knows that there is no longer enough “others” to pay the tab.
The poor EU learned that the Greek siesta, the 10PM Athenian dinners, the state power company vans at the beaches in the workday afternoons, the kafenions full of 50-year-old men at 11AM, the angry students perpetually in the streets at each hinted reform, and the moonlighting telephone employees all came at the expense of far harder-working Scandinavian and German socialists, who apparently now realize a nice two weeks each year on Santorini or Crete aren’t worth billions of their own Euros in rescue bailouts.
We Are All Greeks Now?
Here in California we see the symptoms of the same Greek malady as we go from one budget shortfall to the next — dream-like borrowing, raising taxes, and furloughing, in lieu of the tough medicine of cutting government payrolls, changing pension payouts, and freezing the pay of state-workers until their compensation mirror images those in the private sector.
Postmodern Western society will soon witness a real showdown, analogous to the teenager who rebels and either accepts that he is still dependent on his parents and therefore subject to the rules of the house, or runs away and implodes in a sea of drugs and street-life.
In short, how will an entitled society react when the money runs out and it learns that it must change or wither away — and all the whining rhetoric about “social justice” and “a green future” and “spread the wealth” and “redistributive change” won’t bring another barrel of oil or bushel of wheat or Douglas fir 2” x 4”?
Imagine…
Imagine a politician announcing: we are going to raise the Social Security age to 66. We are going to freeze and cut spending until we balance the budget within three years, and then with surpluses pay down the debt within 6 years. We are going to build 100 new nuclear power plants and open up the country and its shores to oil and gas production. We are going to cut back all federal entitlements and subsidies by 20% immediately. We are going to ensure enough water for agriculture. We are …
Would collective relief or revolution follow?
FL Sen. LeMieux (the appointed guy) noted that if the federal government just went back to 2007 spending there would be a huge surplus this year and next.
Fred Barnes wrote about this point in “The Weekly Standard.”
If federal government spending can’t be reduced to just 2007 levels, then we are in big trouble.
While I agree in the main my cheeky nature demands that I ask if you are going to give up your academic position as you state
“Yes, before we have the actor, the writer, the professor, the insurer, the investor, the regulator, and the politicians, we need the elemental among us to find or create material wealth. We, the sloganeering class, forgot that, and so subsidize our high living either on borrowed money or the prior productive investment of those now in the grave yards. And the tab is coming due faster than we ever dreamed. All the soaring, teleprompted rhetoric, the Ivy-League credentials, and the social justice boilerplate will no more create wealth than ceremonial fifth-century AD consuls and robed bishops could fabricate the glory of Rome.”
Volunteering to become a farmer, miner, or facotry worker are we?
Yes I will become a farmer (or rancher in my case) as I have run cow-calf pairs before …. even though this was one reason why I went back to get a PhD.
“Imagine a politician announcing: we are going to raise the Social Security age to 66.”
Social Security and Medicare are the 600Lb gorillas in the room.
If we can’t immediately move the age of inception to 70 and eventually to 75 in the next couple of years will will indeed, all be bankrupt.
VDH is a raisin farmer in California (his real job)….Professoring just keeps that afloat, much as my own father is a cattle rancher in Texas that pays his notes with cash from the oil patch.
I see no shame in labor, and would gladly abandon my office for the pastures of my agrarian heritage and the spirit of rugged individualism that comes with earning a living on the land, if it were economical. Unfortunately, through a series of misguided programs and corporate acquisitions it is exceedingly difficult to make any sort of living in agriculture. The primary problem with such a loss is the complete lack of personal responsibility in some of our modern bretheren.
How apt, envisioning a society dominated by drones. Beehives have one queen, tens of thousands of workers and a handful of drones. Balance is all important if the hive is thrive, proper and endure. But our hive, American society, is awash in drones that consume the wealth, the workers dwindle and eventually the queen will perish. Never would unthinking nature permit such a recipe for disaster to persist. Unfortunately we rational beings mock nature and use our wits to increase the rewards for drones and starve the workers. I think the honey train is about over.
Proudhon once declared “property is theft!” No, socialism is theft. Leave it up to a French anarchist to get the truth precisely backwards. This from a nation that thinks good manners means taking your wife to dinner after seeing your mistress. I once asked a Frenchmen why he put ashtrays on the tables in the non-smoking area of his cafe. “So the smokers don’t rub out their cigarettes on my tablecloths.” But, of course! The French aren’t all bad, you see.
The Greco-Roman Europeans seem to think that liberty means violating the law with impunity. The Anglo peoples recognize that voluntary compliance to the rule of law ensures freedom for all. A fellow I met from Naples informed me that it’s all a matter of perspective (or perhaps preference). Italians like to converse nose-to-nose so I informed his nasal hairs that he was “just flat out wrong“. Then we all got drunk and laughed a lot. Italians aren’t all bad either.
I was unable to find lodging on Rhodes for less than $100 a night. The youth hostel was full so I teamed up with a gang of Aussies (no better travelers in the world) and we rented a rooftop at $2 a flop. Where there’s a niche, capitalism always provides a service . . . even at $2 a head. It was a bit surreal to see the street below in daylight blocked with shops offering $5000 fur coats, but a genuine Greek coffee (with water on the side) ran me 50 cents. If I need fur, I’ll kill the beast myself, so I opted for the coffee.
Where am I going with this? Adam Smith got it exactly right in the auspicious year of 1776. The invisible hand of the market rules all. Note to granola crunchers everywhere: capitalism is organic and entirely natural. Socialism is poison in the soil. Got that? The difference between “greed” and enlightened self-interest is not a matter of perspective. You’re just flat out wrong if you believe the former.
Socialists aren’t bad people. I drink with my socialist colleagues frequently. Separate checks, of course :)
I am just a country boy
Trying to make some sense
But I’d like to ask the Congress
I’d like to ask the President
Can you tell me where,
All the money went?
We might not be broke
But we’re badly bent
Badly Bent – The Tractors
I have truly come the conclusion that the elite statists are so stupid they can’t even see how stupid they really are…..
Cerdic.
Are you not familiar with VDH’s background?
Cheeky is ok, but it better be based on substantive facts or it just sounds churlish.
After you read Victor Hanson’s biography, then re-read this essay and note that after that excerpt that you called him on – he mentioned the ‘we’ of the sloganeering class.
If you’ve been following this man’s life and writings – you have to acknowledge that hypocrisy is alien to his nature.
You are tossing silly pebbles at a mountain.
“…taxes here in California may soon top 60% on top incomes (10% state, 15% plus payroll on most of one’s self-employed income, 39% federal).”
I have long suspected that countless Californians have remained in the state only because of their inability to sell their property at a decent price. How many of them feel a sense of obligation to stay until the bitter end? And why should they? Do these individuals owe anything to their shockingly immature friends and neighbors who have brought California down to its knees?
I don’t get the impression that most of California’s voters are ready to truly bite the bullet. They merely wish to continue procrastinating and hope some sort of miracle occurs. The odds that this current crisis will be satisfactorily resolved are no better than perhaps thirty percent. California’s government unions are the deciding factor. I can’t imagine the typical forty-nine year old prison guard who is getting ready to retire next year with a ninety thousand dollars annual pension listening to reason. They are not going to gulp hard and accept a more modest package requiring them to retire at sixty-five with only an annual pension of thirty-five thousand dollars. Furthermore, the state is getting bluer by the week. Red and purple state voters are leaving in droves—and leaving the pot smoking and welfare recipient losers behind.
Cedric – VDH IS a farmer as he has said many many times.
Cedric, our esteemed host already IS a farmer. And also an acedemic. As, perhaps, one of old who could turn the tightest verse while rhapsodize knowingly on the pastoral ways.
Dr. Hanson:
Indeed the day of reckoning is coming, but if Obama or anyone remotely like him is in power, they will not acknowledge the rational lessons of Greece. They will instead deny, obfuscate and double down. May I engage in a bit of armchair prediction?
(1) Obama is pulling our troops out of foreign conflicts not because it is militarily wise, not because it is wise for national and world security, but to get his hands on as many defense dollars as possible for his leftist domestic wish lists. I’ve little doubt that he would gladly reduce our troops to Barney Fife-like poverty, leaving them a single bullet in a BDU pocket.
(2) As you so accurately point out, the signs of California’s impending catastrophic collapse have been long in coming and are unmistakable. Even many liberals are admitting their gravity and danger. Yet does any of this spur the leftists that run California to effective–as opposed to fierce rhetorical–remedial action? So too it is and will be with Obama, who is now talking about putting up a pittance in loan guarantees for two nuclear power plants when we need a hundred or more. Many gullible conservatives laud this rhetoric as a sign of rationality on Obama’s part. The reality is that he is simultaneously shutting down our sole national nuclear waste depository, Yucca Mountain in Nevada, after mega bucks and decades spent ensuring that it is ridiculously safe and effective, and before a single ounce of waste is ever deposited on the premises, He knows that he can say whatever he likes, secure in the knowledge that talk is cheap and that his environmentalist friends will tie up any nuclear plant in litigation for a generation. Also unremarked upon is the fact that Obama is doing nothing whatever to trim the regulatory and permitting red tape thicket that also makes it next to impossible to open a nuclear plant. Obama will continue to talk the talk, but behind the scenes will absolutely obstruct nuclear, oil, coal and natural gas production.
(3) Millions of green jobs. Yeah. That didn’t work out so well for Spain, did it? Obama will continue to pour megabucks into solar and wind and “clean” and “green” technologies that don’t exist and likely won’t exist for centuries, if ever, also secure in the knowledge that his own regulatory agencies will make it nearly impossible to exploit these nonexistent technologies and his environmentalist allies will obstruct them no matter what. He will bankrupt GM and Chrysler.
(4) Obama and his supporters will bankrupt Social Security and everything else in sight and will steal, obfuscate, and do whatever is necessary to maintain the glorious, people’s socialist illusion. He will blame it on Bush.
(5) The divide between Americans who think, dream, produce, build and maintain, people who can actually work with their hands and their brains and their self-proclaimed betters, the parasites who benefit from all that is produced by far better men and women than themselves, will be stretched to the breaking point. When that occurs, those who can, will. Those who can only regulate and legislate will find themselves on the losing side of another historic revolution, and it won’t be pretty. The military, who are after all in the working class, will overwhelmingly reject the elite. Most Americans are not and never will be Europeans. The elite have never understood that. They never will. It will be Bush’s fault.
We’ve built a class of civil service millionaires here in California, and they’re not going to be satisfied until all the money is in their pockets, all their benefits are better than everyone else’s, and their jobs are completely secure. If this means the retirement age has to be raised to 90, and the rest of the state’s population has to live in poverty to finance their affluence, then so be it. Ungrateful citizens, don’t you understand these people are used to getting Columbus Day off, with pay?
Cedric, Dr. Hanson IS a farmer. You blithering ignoramus.
When the economic meltdown started what changed from one day to the next? The only thing that changed was a lack of confidence. It wasn’t as if this problem all of a sudden was discovered, it was known for some time. Currency and the value of that currency is always a measure in the confidence of the issuing country. I know many will say we should return to a commodity based system but that type of system allows only limited growth as there is a limit to the amount of that commodity. What is needed is a return in the confidence of the American Dollar and the only way that can happen is if we get our own house in order.
It would not actually take too much to do it because once a measure of confidence in the way we keep our economic house money would free up and then the economy could grow. The GDP has to grow in order for us to just keep pace. If the economy stalls for as little as a few years the damage done may take decades to undo. We also have to have enough fiscal discipline not to spend the new dollars as they pour into the federal coffers.
It is the spending stupid that is the root problem. It was always the spending. In a few years we will be spending over 50% on just the intrest of the existing debt and if the debt keeps rising at current rates we might not even have that much time. China is dumping U.S. Bonds. Japan will not be far behind. Soon no one will buy our bonds and when that happens as it surely will then we as a country will be bankrupt.
A total freeze on all Federal Spending including Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid will be necessary just to buy a few months grace period. The best thing that could happen is for the remaing unspent dollars of the Stimulous Package to not be spent. Open all Federal Lands to Oil/Gas/and Mineral exploration Drilling and Mining. Stop wasting Federal Dollars on Green Projects the market will do fine without spending a dime.
I could go on but unless we take drastic remedial action and soon we might not have the luxury of waiting until the November Elections no less the 2012 election to save our collective butts.
So RIGHT ON THE MONEY (literally and figuratively)!
The last paragraph was the kicker. OH SNAP!
A scary good read.
Government is the current asset bubble. It will pop, or voters will release the air. Let’s hope the latter happens first!
Early indicators may be the results and platforms of the June U.K. Federal elections, and October in the city of Toronto municipal elections for the American mid term elections in November.
As for Dr. Hanson’s point, he already is working the farm and will hopefully remain at his academic post that he may impart his insights and inspire some of his pupils for all our benefit, and especially to the betterment of generations to follow.
And beyond the personal, from a macro perspective, the boomers financial assets at a peak, and all the bogus financial products that have created, were a massive sector.
If one believes that GDP will grow, so to will the finance industry.
When the finance industry is causing GDP growth, the economy has twisted, or become misaligned. That IMHO began to unwind two years ago.
The question now is where does the excess apply their efforts to generate income and pursue a career. And it would seem that’s going to occur in industries where there are more useful services and goods being produced.
Buffett said in the late 90′s the environmental industry will be the next great growth area intothe 2030′s. Notwithstanding the current b.s. of climategate, fresh water, waste disposal, and energy, are three essentials that alone could see increased demand – waste water treatment and water purification companies, recycling, and nuclear power plants to name a few specific examples.
Consider the latter, and the scale of employment – nuclear engineers, physicists, construction companies, uranium miners and mining engineers, commodity traders, and on it goes … and for decades.
This is one area of potential growth at least, where there is real demand and greater efficiencies and strategic benefits.
And as for the deficit situation – how much will TARP repayments by banks reduce this years deficit? And the balance of funds assigned, and yet unspent could immediately reduce the massive deficit this year. That’s the powder for this summer to buy the election results this November. Let’s see if the biggest bang will be deficit reduction versus the typical pork barrel b.s.
VDH: “Would collective relief or revolution follow?”
That is, of course, the $64,000,000,000,000 question.
My own sense (shared no doubt with many here) is that Obama is deliberately trying to polarize the country by aggravating social fault-lines and fanning the flames of partisanship. So far he has pulled back a bit when things get politically threatening, but that may not last. The goal is to break America as a world power, and he will pursue that goal by hook or by crook. Thus, revolution of one kind or another may come regardless.
Nevertheless the correct path is (can only be) to openly challenge the nonsensical leftist narrative, because we know where it leads. There is a risk of course, but I estimate that only about 25% are truly married to the radical transformative agenda that Obama represents, maybe less once all the facts get out. There will be pushback. Civil strife may follow, and it will take literally Churchillian and Lincoln-eqsque levels of clarity and will to see us through safely to the other side. This is where we find ourselves, with nowhere to go but forward.
Dr. Hanson you almost never reply to questions by posters. Given all that you have said,do you honestly believe we can survive three more years of this fiscal insanity? This is a rhetorical question.
My dad used to say that when people are three generations off the farm or out of the factory they lose all their common sense. Dad was right.
I wonder if there isn’t another “bomb” in our future.
To survive as a nation, there must be spending cuts. Job growth will benefit those who wish to work – not those who live off the system. It seems to me that it was the latter who were and still are looking to Obama as the savior. Whether by draconian cut-backs or by economic melt-down, they will suffer the greatest impact.
Those who believed Obama’s air-headed campaign rhetoric, who still believe that he could deliver were it not for the party-of-No, are unlikely to realize his promises were unfulfillable. They will take this personally.
I remember the Watts riots of ’65. This has the potential to replicate this on a far broader scale.
A thorough exposition of Dr. VDH’s agricultural experience, labors, joys and frustrations may be found in his book ‘Fields Without Dreams’; a Works and Days for our time.
As you are content to blame all the financial problems of Greece on European socialism, could you assist my understanding by explaining why Guatemala is so poor? I mean, the US had all the socialists there shot in the 50s and 60s….
Yeah, we build no “damns” but we say a few.
“Ungrateful citizens, don’t you understand these people are used to getting Columbus Day off, with pay?”
They are convinced that they are owed their large salaries and pensions. These public sector workers are also often your immediate family members and intimate friends. One must be willing to end long relationships with people who are very close.
I am increasingly convinced that John F. Kennedy will be remembered mostly for signing an executive order in 1962 allowing government employees to unionize across the nation. This has ultimately brought the country down onto its knees. It can be argued that this is the number one reason why California has been effectively destroyed.
Manufacturing produces wealth by adding value to raw materials. Our manufacturing has gone to China where the wealth is now being produced. China is becoming wealthier as the United States is becoming poorer. The globalists have been cheering for this for years. Now, even they are beginning to feel the pinch. China is not our friend, and China does not need us. We are shipping our remaining wealth to China. Does anyone think this will end well for us?
Often these things end in a revolution. All-ee, all-ee, in free. And then it gets truly nasty.
Our president for life might not see it that way.
“But ultimately our generation lost sight of the fact that we must eat and therefore grow food; we must clothe ourselves and therefore need fibers; we must move from place to place and therefore need fuel; and we must have shelter and therefore have wood, cement and glass.”
No, you’ve got it all wrong. We just have to be green about it. We can recycle everything – everything. Right down to us, as in Soylent Green. That’ll solve the problem. No sweat.
chrisa798,
Cedric, Dr. Hanson IS a farmer. You blithering ignoramus.
Hah! That old insult packs in more derision that an entire paragraph of obscenities.
One small correction, if I may. There is no such thing as a cement layer. Cement is the powder that is mixed with sand, gravel and water to make concrete. Cement masons place and finish concrete.
I think this is the best of your essays in a long time. There is another essay that I would recommend, this time by Theodore Dalrymple, that explains much. It is called The Uses of Corruption and compares Italy with Britain. Italy, of course, is the next failure waiting to happen in the EU.
California was a wonderful place when I came here to live 54 years ago. The decline began with the governorship of Jerry Brown. It is ironic that he is poised to become governor again to complete the circle. I don’t think the California voters are ready to elect Meg Whitman and I don’t know if she could get anything done if they did. Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad.
Giles Agricola knows
Not to dig a well downhill from a Privy.
EnviroNut Statist knows
that only the EPA can prevent typhus.
Why this sudden push for nuclear? I’m against it. However, drill baby drill for more oil.
I worry about the possibility of a Greek-like response to cutting budgets.
It will be informative to see what happens in New Jersey. Gov. Christie has decided to make some serious budget cuts, and look at how the Democrats in NJ have responded: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/02/nj_democrats_take_aim_at_gov_c.html
we are going to raise the Social Security age to 66
As far as the nation goes, it needs to be raised to 75. The average lifespan is almost 80. Many people are living into their nineties.
We can no longer afford to pay social security for 15 or 20 year retirements.
Victor’s “Money Speech”?
Francisco’s Money Speech:
“Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard–the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money–the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law–men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims–then money becomes its creators’ avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they’ve passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.
“Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society’s virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion–when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing–when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors–when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you–when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice–you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that is does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.
“Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men’s protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked, ‘Account overdrawn.’
“When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, ‘Who is destroying the world? You are.”
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1826
Where Did Our Real Wealth Go? – It wasn’t created! The government regulated, crowded out, and taxed away our creators.
When I was a kid, captains of industry were praised instead of despised. People who built efficient factories and produced desirable products were thanked. They were thanked for the products and services, and for creating jobs and for making our nation stronger. We celebrated industry for creating the future and making our lives better. Now they are despised for damaging the environment, for making a profit and keeping some of it, and for moving their operations overseas where they are welcome.
I worked 3 summers on the line in a GM production plant. I would have loved to continue with the company after graduation. I loved seeing the product of my labor rolling off the end of the line and I could see everywhere in the plant opportunities for improvement.
But I also saw the writing on the wall. Union rules and indifferent management ensured that those opportunities for improvement were never realized. Town, state, and federal politicians and regulators were all hostile towards the plant – despite the enormous taxes paid by the company and its thousands of employees. The plant was closed 2 years later and has been idle for the past 20 years. I went into an information career instead. Re-open a few factories here in the Northeast and I’ll be there.
VDH: “Postmodern Western society will soon witness a real showdown, analogous to the teenager who rebels and either accepts that he is still dependent on his parents and therefore subject to the rules of the house, or runs away and implodes in a sea of drugs and street-life.” EXCELLENT! Really gets it down right.
BTW: Georgie Country Club Bushies really WERE bums., the result of the original sin of Reagan not picking Jean Kirkpatrick as VP.
And I would like to highlight one point of VDH’s essay, virtually ALL of the asinine damage done to our utilization of assets listed resulted from the crusading of spoiled offspring of wealthy families who have never worked for their own living in their lives.
Joseph Kennedy comes to mind as a prime example, but any eco-loon march in Berkeley is replete with the offspring of wealthy parents demanding the cessation of economic activity which might affect one of their playgrounds.
And rational thoughts never enter their minds. The most perfect example is that all the eco-loons DEMAND that every auto be replaced with an electric version, yet at the exact same time they oppose nuclear power and virtually every other energy source which will be needed to power all these new electric eating autos?
I suspect that underlying this disconnect is that they have theirs, so secretly they don’t want the sheeple crowding them on their vacations and lifestyles. So what better way than to restrict the small people to destitution and “ghettos”.
Way back in the 80′s the columnist William Raspberry wrote about a conversation he had a Washington party.
Looking around at the collection of lawyers, bureaucrats, journalist, academics etc he turned to a friend and asked:
“Do you know anybody who makes anything?”
It had suddenly occurred to Raspberry that his entire professional and social security was comprised of people who more or less did nothing but talk for living. He had no personal contact with anyone who participated in the creation of any material good. After asking around, he found that he didn’t know anyone who even made things has a hobby. He said, “I couldn’t even find anyone who had made so much as a bookcase.”
That little newspaper column opened my eyes up to the most profound division in modern society. It is not rich vs poor or ethnic-group/race A vs ethnic-group/race B or male vs female etc. It is the division between those who create the real physical wealth of our civilization and those who merely manipulate others by persuasive communication.
The trouble is the manipulators are always inherently more politically powerful because politics is about persuasion. Worse, the manipulators are completely oblivious to their own ignorance about the materially creative. Even when they approach a problem with a sincere, unselfish intent to do good, their insular subculture prevents them from understanding the practicalities of material production.
So we end up with an elite political class that functions as did the mandarins of China who were so prideful of their distance from material production that they grew their fingernails to ridiculous lengths to intentionally cripple their hands. They could not even feed themselves and were proud of it. When they reached that state, their administration of the empire became delusional and the collapse of the dynasty soon followed. Then the cycle would repeat itself.
Now, we too are governed by a class of people who see no value in material production. Oh, they value the nebulous “jobs” but they think any job is as valuable as any other and so see no problem with driving the materially productive out of their communities and eventually the country as a whole. They are actively proud that they shutdown factories, farms and prevent the construction of infrastructure. They sneer at the materially productive for being greedy even while their own lives are fully devoted to obtaining more coercive power over their fellow human beings.
Perhaps, as in many things, the Chinese are the template for all human civilizations. Perhaps the talkers are in the long run destined to always dominate and then destroy every polity. Perhaps we too must suffer through collapse, destruction and rebirth.
As the whole Chinese curse says, we may be living in interesting times.
Mr Hanson,
I have been reading your posts for quite a while. I must say that they are pretty consistent representations of a conservative worldview with a compelling historical perspective. I would just like to say that this current post personally resonates with me to an exceptional degree. As an unemployed engineer in his mid-50s, I find my career as a wealth creator in the trash bin. I currently have no value to this society as it exists now. Jobs come and go but their are no jobs for me anymore. The really sad part is that I get to watch all the good things that were brought about during my carer squandered. No one is interested in creating wealth anymore. The movers and shakers of today are just playing with piles of old money. I am now a ward of the state and a have joined the growing army of dependents. I really don’t see anyway that this is going to change. I still have hope that my kids may find a way but I’m afraid that they are going to end up pretty disillusioned as well.
Dr. Hanson, your insight is always refreshing. I’d caution against, however, giving too much emphasis to production of food, clothing, and shelter as the basis of wealth. Needs are hierarchical, and if basic physical needs are not fully met, then food, fiber, and shelter are the basis of wealth. But once these items are abundant, the products of the actor, the professor, and the regulator become of greater value. These products, too, enhance the human condition and are thus items of value. Our problem is not the import of physical goods from other countries. Nor is our current reliance on service and information as our main source of wealth a problem. Rather, the problem is the large and growing number of residents who do nothing of present economic value – physical or otherwise – but still receive redistibuted money. This is facilitated by the politicians who pander for their votes and the bureaucrats who serve them as prized customers. The market will eventually correct it — quite painfully, if we keep resisting the correction. The money will, in fact, run out.
I think this article is just basic commone sense.
Taking money out of the private sector economy to feed the public sector economy is not sustainable.
It just blows my mind that ANYbody buys into what the current administration is doing.
It is akin to the bad old days of medicine when bloodletting was thought to be the cure.
If the patient actually got worse, the response was…MORE blood letting!!
If large federal expenditures are good for the economy, why did the economy tank in the last ~ year of th eBush Administration.
Oh wait, maybe back then we called called it “Federal Government spending” instead of “stimulus”.
Yeah, that’s it!!
Since the feds want to take us back to 1950 carbon sonsumption, how about us put them also on a 1950 budget diet? EH? Fair enough?
Why feed the fat cats. The sloganeering class.
Sell Big Bird! Cut politically correct social indoctrination programs and activist groups (the pork in porkulous). Return education to it’s rightful place – to the States. Privatize airport security. Dump FEMA and sell off it’s coffins. Deport the illegals and secure the borders. Cut corporate welfare (porkulous). And on and on.
Can you imagine, just imagine, if every GOP politiican chose, or was told to by the leadership of the party (ha!) to read this entire piece, down to the last syllable, to their constituants at some public forum? Can you imagine the titanic political earthquake that would ensue if we all adopted this “Hanson manifesto” as the single clearest and most cogent enumeration of what conservatives and the Tea Party movement are all about, and shouted these words from every rooftop?
Drones? The worker-bees throw ‘em out of the hive comes winter, and let ‘em perish.
Cedric can your Phd translate this for me please – “klania kai mangia”. If you must know what it refers to ask a Greek, better yet a modern day Greek politician… “it’s” at the root of all their troubles in Greece today, and most applicable to your own post too.
he was judged to extent with out money,that he have to get Republic of Biafra,
legal tenders all denominations of the currencies,so he will know
what picture marked on its encrption for people who their imgaes appeared will
do with other currencies of the world,just like tony montana as he was arrested to establish
prsent on cuban currency and USA dollar they counted for him on bank treaty.
That was Col.Frank Omenka who later got the note via a protocol exile in Benine Republic
which was leaked and people said that Republic of Biafra legal tender
is on sell in ECOWAS region but to direct and channel people died
in River Niger Bridge head mosque bomb.
…before we have the actor, the writer, the professor, the insurer, the investor, the regulator, and the politicians, we need the elemental among us to find or create material wealth.
As money represents labor, wealth begins with a shovel going into the ground.
Wealth comes from the earth.
If we worship the earth and keep it “pristine” (defined as untouched by humans, regardless of the damage done by storms, earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes) we will starve.
Hey! The Social Security full eligibility age for those turning 65 this year is 66!!! That change was made by the politicians in 1983 …
see: http://ftp.ssa.gov/retirement/1943.html
The majority of today’s workers will not be full SS eligible until they turn 67.
The move to a “service economy” has been a disaster. As a former member of the manufacturing class, I’ve seen the decline first-hand.
There is an immutable fact that our leaders are ignoring, to the peril of the country: People need things. Dr. Hanson points this out. Modern life commands modern devices, and we’re not making them. We could be and we should be. Our way of life requires the manufacture of things like cell phones, computers and autos. Our govnerment has allowed businesses to sell out its own citizens in the form of NAFTA and other treaties that consider American workers last, if at all.
When we awaken from our slumber and begin to elect politicians who understand that capitalism is the best and only engine to improve the life of man, we’ll begin to make those things that modern life needs. We’ll start creating wealth and our standard of living will begin to improve.
Would collective relief or revolution follow?
Depends on where you live.
I suspect in California, Michigan, Illinois and the rest of the heavily unionized, entitlement rich “bleu states” you will see rioting and anarchy complete with burning cities. Those who have always had everything given to them by the state do not have any respect for the property of those who have actually worked for everything they have. That includes people like politicians, city/state unionized “public workers” the “professional students” and “academics” like Cedric. The governments of those entities will not be able to handle it because of their “progressive” attitudes and laws which leave the productive segments of society at the mercy of the hooligans. Those productive members of society will bail out ASAP leaving nothing but the welfare state leeches and the politicians. Those who can have already left or are leaving before it comes to that-see California and Greece for fine examples of that.
In other states that have healthier economies and laws it will go on but to a lesser extent. For example in Texas they might try to riot, burn and loot but a heavily armed general population and the “Castle Law” will put a stop to that fairly quickly-it is hard to keep on rioting, burning and looting when you get a face full of buckshot.
In general there will be a “revolution” of sorts, in fact it has already begun. It isn’t the revolution that the liberals/progressives/Marxists wanted, though. The sleeping giant is awake and it is pissed.
On the other hand, as the money runs out, will state workers, pensioners, and entitlement recipients accept that there are too few wealth-creators to fund their pay-outs, or, as in Greece, hit the streets in protest, teenager style, each time some adjustments are necessary?
They will riot. They are all “junkies” and we all know what happens when junkies have to go cold turkey. See the above for what the reaction will be to that.
On a related note…
I think the politicians know what is coming which is why you are seeing some of them announcing their “retirements”. The rats are leaving the sinking ship because they know that getting reelected will be the least of their worries soon. They want to get out and find a safe place to hide before the people come after them.
As the author and others have pointed out liberals tend to gravitate to professional careers where they have little contact with ordinary working people, people that actually make the economy function at the grassroots level. The empirical evidence that they are wrong about the efficacy of Big Government is overwhelming by now. Why they persist in believing the opposite is true is puzzling, except as an expression of blind elitism. It’s not rocket science to know who is going to eventually win the argument though.
I would agree with the good professor on many counts. As a former State employee and now state university worker, I would just add that most of us want to do a good job but feel we are prisoners of the unions. We have no choice whether to join or not, and we can thank Jerry Brown for that. He signed into law the “fair share” fees law that requires non-union members to pay virtually the same amount of dues as a member. He of course realized that the he and other Dems would get the money back from the union PAC.
Dr. Hanson states that “Money is simply a representation of stored capital that comes from real production of some sort.” Although that is true, it is a reality-based concept that progressives are simply unable and/or unwilling to grasp. To a traditionalist, money represents a store of value, but to Obama and his ilk, money is a psychological ploy, something to be used for leading the sheeple around by their collective nose.
A personal experience opened my eyes to this dichotomy. In college I met a poli-sci progressive who, with simplistic joy, asked me, “Like, why can’t we just replace all money with poker chips?”. This kind of moronic viewpoint is basic to the left, who are essentially leeches on the saved capital, culture and morality which have been painfully built up over decades by traditionalist Conservatives. Progressives underpin their mindset with Keynesian economics as tactics and socialist economics as unstated, unacknowledged goals. The former provides a superb intellectual cachet, and a perfect excuse to create more trillions of fiat money digging us further into debt.
Will reality ever intrude into the progressive dreamland? Stay tuned, as either the EU collapses, and/or China decides to stop buying US debt. Then again, maybe progressives want such a crisis to occur, thus providing them with a perfect excuse for forcing full redistributive policies down our throats. Whatever the outcome, I can’t imagine it will be pretty.
Shows you that a “Phd” is not a real measure of the holder.
If we take over the Senate and the Congress with small government conservatives we can avert this crisis. There will be tough times but God will smile on us.
DO NOT GIVE UP, DO NOT LOSE HOPE.
Nov.2, 2010 is our Independence Day if we reclaim our heritage of opportunity as promised in the Constitution.
Nov. 2 is the deadline.
It could be reduced dramatically if we were to pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq. I for one am sick of the argument that because we got involved, we have to see it through until everything works swimmingly over there. I wonder how many of the people who honestly believe that lost money in the stock market because they were so loyal to buy-and-hold on companies that were just not going to recover that they couldn’t take their losses and move on.
Yup, very familiar with VDH’s background. No, I was not taking a stab at him … rather I was pointing out that lots of people out there who are in these positions won’t give them up without a fight. Like I pointed out — I used to ranch as well. Hard work, backbreaking work, and one of the reasons I continued my education.
How many of us have worked 18 hour days at backbreaking labor before? Very few I would wager. Or not for very long.
I remember a story from long ago about a barbarian coming across the Rhine and sneering at the old, weak Roman poet in a tavern. The moral of the story was somethng along the lines of the strength of Rome could be seen in the fact that it could support a poet and that not every man had to be a barbarian warrior, which the barbarian did not understand of course.
While I agree to a point with VDH about the need to trim the intellectual drones in our society to a degree, there are limits. And while I admire VDH for his ability to be a gentleman farmer as the founders were, we all can’t be one. There is not enough land.
So to a degree we will continue to need specializaiton — but not to the degree we have it today. More engineers and fewer lawyers and bankers for example.
And Catherine (and others), noticed how I asked the question? I too used the “we” in asking it … implying not just VDH and myself but soceity as a whole.
Like I said I’ve worked a farm (I was a big kid and so by age 12 I was free labor for the summer for relatives with farms), I’ve ranched, I worked a lawn care business, landscaping, etc. etc. in the past. I used to drive through Baltimore and hand out business cards and bus passes to the guys on the side of the road with the “Hungry will work for food signs” and tell them they could make $8 an hour (this was back in the early 1980′s) if they showed up to do a sod job tomorrow. Not one ever showed up.
Ditto when I ran cow-calf pairs in Eastern Colorado. I’d need an extra 20 or so guys when it came time to round up and ship the pairs in the fall for about two weeks. I could never get the unemployed to show up. Even though I was offering $15 an hour (early 1990′s), three meals, and transportatin to and from the land where I had the cows.
The point is simply this — what makes money, what creates wealth is really in many cases labor. Labor goes into mining, farming, ranching, manufacturing, etc. Labor can also be mental labor such as what the inventor goes through. But in the end its the value of that labor that creates wealth. Yet most of us I would wager, are unwilling to put in the hard work.
Not most of us here on this board in this discussion but the larger “we” that I alluded to above.
Change will come not because we’ve decided that it’s time, rather we’ll change (as a society) when our collective faces are rubbed in the mud. Human beings just don’t give up the good life until they have to.
That time will come.
I think this is your best essay yet!
There is one problem with it, though… the statists will not ever admit to any of this. Their belief system is their pride and joy… the thing that sets them above and beyond the rest of us… how can they ever admit it is fatally flawed? They cannot, of course.
So what’s going to happen? Well, they will distract the folks with a good, old fashioned witch hunt… and the media will gladly play along. You see, Goldman Sacks and friends were involved with helping Greece hide its debt, so by the time its all done, they will put the vast majority of the blame on GS, who fleeced the noble, if naive, politicians of Europe. Its bullshit, of course, but in the end, they will have convinced themselves and many of the commoners that it is all the fault of the capitalists.
You see, the narrative is already written, and truth is subservient to narrative. Wealth grabbers and the poor are to be the good guys, wealth builders and Americans the bad. So it is written, so shall it be! And since the whole world is interconnected, a line can always be drawn from the irresponsible (politically holy) to the designated enemy of the state. Let the blame-shifting begin!
(Side note — Goldman Sacks is a rotten organization. They need an army of accountants and lawyers to permanently encamp up their butts. I am not defending GS, except to state that they are not the bad guys in the Greek [and rest of EU] collapsing welfare state.)
We have degenerated into a consumer economy, consumer society to where in Autumn 2008 George Bush urged Americans to go out and buy in order to rev up the economy. Being a consumer implies being passive and feminine, even gay. A producer economy is more male driven, is pro-active, bold and industrious. Just look at the hard charging, macho captains of industry we used to have. This was capitalism at its best. Today’s Wall Street is certainly not heroic and it is not capitalism. Libertarians should remember that Ayn Rand’s books had capitalist heroes, Hank Rearden, John Galt who earned their riches via industry, via making things. Not via jacking around financial paper and getting a skim from that
Victor has hit all of our weaknesses and illusions about what constitutes the real work of a developed nation. We can be energy independent via VDH’s program and this will eliminate half our trade deficit. But even if we brought back steel making and factories and production here we would still have many unemployed due to automation and computerization. We simply don’t need as many workers to build an automobile or refrigerator. Even a lot of white collar jobs are being computerized out of existence
I’m not saying billionaires should be unjustly taxed but much of our wealth is not spread around as well as it used to be. It is concentrated more than it was in the 1960s. We have credentialed educated people out there doing make work jobs in universities (climate change, woman’s & ethnic studies) and the Federal government. The working class used to get a large share of what now goes to credentialed class drones such as lawyers. The wealth is still there but is perceived as missing because it used to be spread around more equally because it used to be that all Americans were needed to work. The labor of all Americans was valued. This is obvious from the very low unemployment rates we used to have
We are seeing the beginning of large wealth distribution problems because the labor of many fine Americans is simply not needed to produce a realistic volume of goods and services America needs. So if you have millions of redundant workers do you give them handouts? This can be very destructive because psychologically people should feel they have earned what they have and are not dependents of the state
We could probably get rid of half of America’s government workers and we would get along just fine. All these useless workers has come about because the jobs simply are not there for them in the private sector and this trend has been snowballing for decades. To where it steals from the remaining private sector workers and businesses to feed the public sector Frankenstein workers with Frankenstein salaries pensions and benefits.
This is why the delta smelt ruse is used to give useless enviro-bureaucrats permission to steal the irrigation water of million of acres of California cropland. By these evil actions these bureaucrats are perceived as very busy and caring as taking necessary action. These highly credentialed bureaucrats are trying to justify their existence and bloated salaries
6. ~Paules:
“Note to granola crunchers everywhere: capitalism is organic and entirely natural. Socialism is poison in the soil. Got that?”
That was epiphanous. These “back to Nature” animistic, luddite, and anti-Western/human people are actually prescribing an artificial/unnatural economic construct for…the sake of Nature?
Governmental borrowing is the tool by which the sheeple can be impoverished while they feel enriched. Our nation is being looted by cynical voters and politicians.
“Imagine a politician announcing: we are going to raise the Social Security age to 66. We are going to freeze and cut spending until we balance the budget within three years, and then with surpluses pay down the debt within 6 years. We are going to build 100 new nuclear power plants and open up the country and its shores to oil and gas production. We are going to cut back all federal entitlements and subsidies by 20% immediately. We are going to ensure enough water for agriculture. We are …
Would collective relief or revolution follow?”
I really think, at this point that it would be welcome. I think that the usual suspects would scream and scream and scream…but that it would truly fall on deaf ears.
As soon as the electorate sees the debt decreasing, or even just real concrete steps being taken to eliminate it and the entitlement state, there would would really be a collective sigh of relief.
Yes, the left will go berzerk–but that’s what they do.
Luckily for America, Barack Obama has shown us the truth of the “progressive agenda” and the american people have rejected it.
I’ve got family in Europe. I love them but the difference in attitudes and world view are shocking. Socialism has imbued in them this cross between a sense of entitlement and a learned helplessness.
We’re not like them, but we are headed in that direction…there is still time for us to maintain our way of life and our backbones.
The one aspect of Europe’s collapsing welfare state that consistently gets overlooked is how much more quickly it would have come without ugly Americans providing for their national defenses. As eager as Europeans seemed to embrace Obama and his statist agenda, deep down they know that their great socialist experiment would have never gotten off the ground without their evil capitalist American sponsors.
Yet most of us I would wager, are unwilling to put in the hard work.”
Fewer are than would be were those who actually work for a living not laughed at and called stupid hooples by those in the establishment and media. Witness how Barry characterized working folks when he didn’t think his comments would be reported and the way the same media and “in crowd” characterizes Palin for not being educated at the “right” schools. Anyone who works for a living at anything other than mocking real work has been belittled by the “progressive” crowd for at least thirty years. Even jobs requiring a solid education are laughed at if those doing it are educated at “lesser” institutions or in technical fields. That there are now fewer folks who would be proud of working for a living is no surprise given the concerted anti-work agenda that’s taken hold in schools.
Decades of teaching children that not only is hard work beneath nice people, it’s also an evil assault on mother earth has yielded a generation or two that believe it’s an insult to expect them to work and a tragedy to produce rather than consume what’s produced elsewhere (let “them” live in an evil industrial society, not us). The most corrupting money spent on politics is spent on what passes for education and is allocated as if it were not political spending. It is, however, the most political of all spending and has yielded the results the “progressive” crowd intended when they created the federal “education” department and systematically took control of education away from the states.
have a nice day
60 Cedric: A much better post. I was disappointed in your first post, too. The question, followed by “are we?” really does not convey the point you say you were trying to make in post 60. That, combined with the context of rebuttal of Dr. Hanson’s points, made it look like a direct criticism of the professor.
While I’ve have seen the use of “…are we?” often in a demeaning/sarcastic one-on-one conversation, I’ve rarely seen it in the way you were attempting to use it: Directed at one individual while referring to others.
Would collective relief or revolution follow?
We shall soon see Professor, and acknowledging that there isn’t any “collective relief” available leaves only your latter option.
Paules@6,
Socialists aren’t bad people. Well they’re demonstrated to be a lot like Muslims; ie, if you’re not one, then you’re awaiting slavery or death, sooner or later. Whole bunch of moral equivalence required to not call that bad.
MikeNcD@12-3,
I see it a little differently. According to plan, it’s worse. The current assault on Toyota looks to be opportunistic, aggressive and orchestrated. Next Ford. By the time Ford buckles, the remaining non-US automakers will be required to raise their prices to subsidize Gov’t Motors.
Kipling had it right all those years ago. Putting the Sons of Mary in charge instead of the Sons of Martha does not yield good results. If you want things done, get the Marians out of the way.
I was raised in farm country (my family ran a farm-equipment dealership), and now have a doctorate in clinical pharmacy and work as a medical writer.
In my spare time, I still like fixing things – I work on old Mercedes diesels and antique farm tractors. I never cease to be amazed, though, that many of my co-workers actually look down on my choice of hobbies. I had a (now ex-) girlfriend who asked me “what was so fun about having grease under my fingernails or splinters in my hands”. Her choice of hobbies? Reading. Nothing wrong with that in principle, but… her favorite author was David Sedaris.
Needles to say, that relationship went nowhere. I’ve since married, and my dear wife is only too eager to help me install sets of piston rings in antique Farmalls.
As I have stated before, 2010 and 2012 will provide us with the opportunity to combat the plague of progressivism.
The weapon should be austerity.
The target should be Academia.
We can simply not provide student loans to person getting frivolous liberal arts degrees, instead focus on math and science.
No more money for Post Colonial Studies or Critical Theory!
Why should tax payers subsidize that which directly insults them?
“Note to granola crunchers everywhere: capitalism is organic and entirely natural. Socialism is poison in the soil. Got that?”
All the crunchies talk about “Sustainability”.
If something is not profitable, it is not sustainable.
Who can honestly say they didn’t see this coming a long time ago? We just flat out lost our way. We abandoned the work ethic. We stopped thinking about transmitting something of real value in the course of our business transactions. Everyone wanted to “make” money when in actuality all they were doing was accumulating money and extracting money from the economy in numerous ways without creating or transmitting anything of real value. We made crap and marketed the heck out of it. We sold snake oil and didn’t care if the infirmed got taken to the cleaners.
We became selfish as we tried every way imaginable to get on the money train. We became so obsessed with getting on the train that we forgot that someone had to either push, pull or otherwise cause the train to move. Now, along with junk food, junk entertainment, junk art, junk government and a junk legal system, we now have a junk economy.
We did this to ourselves as we looked the other way when our legislators used their offices for personal gain as opposed to serving the people. We thought we could vote money into our pockets. We just went with the flow as we abandoned common sense and proper behavior. Now only we can right the wrongs by embracing discipline, education, common sense, hard work and ethical conduct.
52. BackwardsBoy:
Our govnerment has allowed businesses to sell out its own citizens in the form of NAFTA and other treaties that consider American workers last, if at all.
………….
No, you have it backwards. The government forced industry to outsource and to move manufacturing plants overseas because of their over-arching regulatory nature and their confiscatory tax policy.
The Federal tax revenue on petroleum products is greater than the profits of the corporations that produce the product.
More TAX than revenue to the producer. That is flat wrong.
tom
In the 90′s we had a dot.com bubble, in the 200′s we had a housing/mortgage/lending bubble, in this decade we have a government-treasury bubble, and they all burst. Watch the inflation indexes for further proof of the deficit insanity. Inflation is a form of tax.
To the question:Imagine:
“Would collective relief or revolution follow?”
The premise is the solution to deficit of trust. The trust is broken. The revolutioon comes at the ballot box, a peaceful American civilized revolution to throw the rascals out.
As a Texas resident, and long ago California resident, my immediate concern is that California, NY, Michigan and similar states are working hard to make their debts and obligations, national debts and obligations. Unfortunately, given the power of the Federal government, I think they will succeed. I’ve liquidated investments in US companies and invested in China and India. I’m encouraging my children to think not just about the US but other countries as places to consider for opportunities.
There’s very little in our society that makes me think we will return to the days of living off your own efforts. The days of expecting to live off someone else’s efforts are here to stay; the general population has been led to expect it.
A little revolution might be a good thing!
Please be cautious about California water– it is a battle of rent seekers on one side and ideologues (ESA) on the other. There must be an option other than -”if they are wrong we as proof must be right.” California through massive federal subsidies grows rice we don’t use in a desert! A massive waste of water that could go to far more high value crops, development needs and even fish. But it is about who controls the water and the public is not an invited party by either side. The public is required to pay no matter which side wins and receives no value in exchange. The fish and ESA related law suits are an equal abuse of the public interest and trust. The battle for water in California is a battle of subsidized special interests- the winner if we continue to frame this issue in this manner will never be the taxpayer. Remember the enemy of my enemy can still be my enemy.
“Where did our real wealth go?”
No mystery there. A tiny fraction went into the con artist’s pockets….only a few hundred billion, but that’s all they expected in Round 1. The real riches will flow to them in Round 2, as the remaining 70% of the wealth of America is squeezed dry in the next few years.
The remaining fraction of the wealth so far stolen was destroyed so the con men could get their tiny fraction.
(1) Much to “entitlements” that the ignorant blow on ipods and sneakers. Exclude Social Security and Medicare reimbursements (more on them later) from that. These “entitlements” are subsidies for the lazy not to work but to vote Democrat, subsidies for illegal’s to vote Democrat when they are made citizens before 2012, and subsidies for blacks to vote Democrat. Call those “Deadbeat Subsidies”.
(2) Much to all forms of graft, kickbacks, and payoffs. Put the “stimulus” in that column, and the billions siphoned from Medicare yearly. Call that “Friends of Obama”.
(3) Some to pure vote buying. Acorn, stealing elections. $50 an election to millions of “voters”. Call that “Voter Fraud”.
(4) Much to crony capitalists of all types to buy their support, and contributions to the cause. Call that “the Chicago Way”.
(5) Some to “green entrepreneurs” who are working so hard to save our planet. Call that “Greenmail”, and
(6) An astonishing amount burnt or shoveled to Goldman Sachs, AIG, George Soros, and others, in the multiple market manipulation scams of 2008, all designed to get Obama elected: the historic Stock Market crash, the unprecedented oil run-up and crash, the impossible Money Market meltdown scheme, the creative Derivatives Con, the life changing Real Estate crash. Call that “Barney’s Little Scheme”.
And where are the “lucky” souls who managed to navigate those financial landmines, thank you very much? Perhaps knowing their names will help illustrate the root causes of the destruction of America.
Here are a few: Barack Obama, Barney Franks, Chris Dodd, Franklin Raines, George Soros, Goldman Sachs, Al Gore, and AIG. Those honorable citizens all somehow managed to avoid the depletion of 30% of wealth that the rest of us have shouldered (so far). It pays to be “smart” in America.
A) Should a communist administration take power in America, what would it do ?
To find the answer, answer this first:
B) which Country, which People have defended Freedom all over the world and defeated the USSR ?
You get the answer to B, you get the answer to A.
And they are doing it, and our pundits keep criticizing the “mistakes” of this administration. This administration isn’t making any mistake.
The pundits are making a mistake, they fail to call for a rollback of totalitarianism and they fail to call Americans to defend America against those who are trying to DESTROY it.
Nonetheless, we can hope in the Wisdom of the People in November.
I have little to add to Dr Hanson’s brilliance or to the many other fine comments on this subject other than to point out that with regards to California’s future the current focus seems to be on whether we elect Meg Whitman (sic?) as the next governor. And I believe that electing her, or pretty much anyone else in the conservative camp, is irrelevant and will not fix the problem. The problem is the legislature and by extension the people of California who insist on ignoring the damage that the lockstep Democratic stranglehold on the state is wreaking. And that is where the problem lies. I’m a fairly recent transplant to California, arriving shortly after Schwarzenegger’s (sic? again) election. I voted for the reform initiatives that he brought with him and was deeply disappointed to see them defeated by my fellow citizen’s. Didn’t they understand that many of those reforms were precisely the reason they had voted to replace Davis with Schwarzenegger? Apparently not. If I fault Arnold, it’s for the fact that after that defeat he tucked tail and folded. Rather he had used his office to make an impassioned plea to convince and yes, even to shame, the voter’s into understanding what they had done. And perhaps even resigning out of principle, if the message failed. He certainly didn’t need the pay and the message sent may have shaken some people into sense. Unfortunately that did not happen and he now suffers blame for what is essentially the fault of an unthinking, self-indulgent population and a politically entrenched ruling class. To coin a not so original phrase “We have met the enemy and it is us, the people of California….ya’ fricking nimrods”
12. Yucca Mountain was a dumb idea to begin with. We should be reprocessing all this used fuel in order to give it new life. We could run our entire nuclear fleet for seven years off of the actinides recovered from used fuel, off of just the fuel efficiency of our current fleet. Fission products should then be chemically separated into various useful elements- the extraction of precious metals from fission products can go a long way toward paying for the operations of a reprocessing plant. The balance of the fission products, which are still significantly radioactive, can be buried on site.
40. Shannon Love:
“Looking around at the collection of lawyers, bureaucrats, journalist, academics etc he turned to a friend and asked:
“Do you know anybody who makes anything?”…
That little newspaper column opened my eyes up to the most profound division in modern society…the division between those who create the real physical wealth of our civilization and those who merely manipulate others by persuasive communication”
Thank you for a making a very important point.
We can no longer afford to endulge their egos and endure craziness they inflict on us.
People don’t peacefully reconfigure their reality willingly. A drastic but necessary “revolution”, such as the reasonable but hard core one you describe, will only come from some huge external event that necessitates it.
Maybe an asteroid or something…..
One more thing, we can’t possibly repay the debt in six years- it’s too high. The Federal government is incapable of sustaining revenues above 19% of GDP, so there’s no way we could pay off all the debt within six years even if we started today. Twenty years, now that’s more reasonable.
Great posts, all! To wit:
Yawning Over Potemkin Zombieland
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 2/16/10
Well then, it’s agreed:
There are just no prophets today,
Warning us about,
Potemkin Zombieland. Hurray!
Hurray! We’re okay,
With hamster pipe walk-left-walk-right preachers!
They don’t mesmerize us,
Not according to our liberal school teachers!
No, the wing tanks are full,
On the jets of our preacher and politico class!
We need discern nothing,
Enlightened thought is just a worrisome morass!
Even if one of us in thinking,
Were to succeed,
Not one, but all need enlightening,
To work. Agreed?
So we’re ever so happy,
With Potemkin Zombieland!
Leaders: rich, plebes: broke,
Enslaved America is so grand!
That’s what some preachers and politicians,
Do, if not say, by their action!
Never mind their blinding us to all that,
Our one job: Their satisfaction!
Never mind Western Enlightenments’ tragic view,
Check and verify against each man’s sin,
We embrace mystic, therapeutic tyranny,
Our lives: dust, that masters live: golden!
It’s the new all-for-one,
And the new one-for-all,
Feudal lords over us,
Come now, lords of cabal!
Actually, we need to be,
More primitive, more easy-to-herd,
More easy-to-direct gerbils!
More nadir! Our zenith leaders’ word!
We need faux James Bond leaders and preachers,
Jetting to elite vacation spots!
With fake licenses to steal our monies and lives,
No consequences, no harms, no blots!
There is a truth about the Democrats of today that few really understand. They have a real plan. They have a real vision. Everything that most people see: the “noble charity”, the “empathy for the oppressed”, their plans to create “equality” and to bring about ultimate “fairness” are a smokescreen for their real vision. This vision has never changed in its ultimate goals. It was long ago put to print by a writer few people have read or remember:
Thomas Malthus from which we get the term Malthusian.
Malthus described a world with too many people, too few resources.
This world is the one our elites envision, and these elites have come to have a sort of faith that it is they who deserve the best of all things and they are seeing a mass of 2-legged rats that threaten the utopia they deserve, who far outnumber the volume of servants needed to serve these elites’ desires.
Those 2-legged rats would by the bulk of us by the way….
…and these elites want to attain enough power to accomplish the ultimate goal as expressed by Saul Alinsky in his book “Rules For Radicals”: to achieve first by way of the ballot box and the protest sign – and eventually any means necessary – sufficient power where they can use a bullet to enforce their will upon the public to accomplish their ultimate goals.
So, what’s wrong with America is that we’ve become a nation of bourgeoisie who have no connection to the means of production. The factories, the farms, the mines, the refineries have been ignored for far too long.
We need to idolize the proletariat of our country who build capital wealth and send the teachers and intellectuals who are undermining our country into the fields for re-education.
Somehow that just sounds too leftist for me.
I pray there is a return to sanity soon, but I fear there won’t be. I don’t expect to draw my military pension for very long, and if I don’t retire soon, I may not draw it at all.
Sometimes I believe I can feel what the legionaires felt standing guard on the Rhine, or Britannia, in the early 5th century…the sense of bewilderment looking over my shoulder to the Capital at a lifetime spent defending something so that others in that same Capital could piss it away.
Deus, adiuva nos.
In a healthy free market economy, those that deal in money (banks, financiers, investors, etc) should grease the wheels of productivity, and they deserve their cut of the profit (and share of losses). But when you have them siphoning off much more than they deserve from the producers, while virtually eliminating all risk to themselves, you have a problem.
Whatever happened to basic accounting?
In a healthy free market economy, those that deal in money (banks, financiers, investors, etc) should grease the wheels of productivity, and they deserve their cut of the profit (and share of losses). But when you have them siphoning off much more than they deserve from the producers, while virtually eliminating all risk to themselves, you have a problem.
Whatever happened to basic accounting?
“Why this sudden push for nuclear? I’m against it.
Easy #33 GeOffery
- we produce 3% of the worlds oil, while we consume 25% of it. The world won’t run out but oil will only get more and more expensive. Quite a bit of the worlds oil is supplied by unstable countries that hate us and the west.
All of those AlGore Green renewables might add up to 4% of our energy needs in the next few years, maybe 20% years down the road. We need to exploit ALL sources of energy if we want to continue the lifestyle we are accustomed too and that includes conservation. There is no way around nuclear. We need to get over the Jane Fonda misconceptions. It is very safe, can be made to be inexpensive and is a far better alternative to sending our troops around the world to secure our energy future.
Take a look at “Power To Save The World” – Gwyneth Cravens & “Physics for Future Presidents”, Richard Muller. We are fortunate to have Steven Chu bending Obama’s ear and he deserves great credit for getting this ball rolling. Hopefully they will also begin exploiting our huge natural gas resources as well.
USA has been bankrupt by design for over a century. The war tax became a permanent income tax wherein all profits from USA are siphoned back to counter-reformationist Bank of England, under Rothschild and Vatican control.
It is impossible to be wealthy under such the debt-slave system. Every dollar created also creates an antidollar of debt. Computers tag antidollars to debtors ensuring their wealth is canceled, and ownership returns to the banksters.
The real “current” transfer of wealth began shortly after Bush took over. The Neo -Cons stopped renewable rescource technology and decided to transfer our country.s wealth to the Middle East.
A big mistake. A trillion or more of American wealth has now been transferred to the middle east, just in bribes and corruption payments. A brake has now been put on this money. And we have turned the corner toward renewable resources…
is it enough? nobody is sure.
There are those that want to continue to destroy our future. …who knows who will win…?
We now live in a global village; that means competition with once-undeveloped countries. Our copying Europe into socialism, ie, taking from producers and giving to non-producers, at the national level has bankrupted us, as well as Europe. It didn’t work for the USSR, and it won’t work for us. If we had followed the constitution, charity would have remained a local/state responsibility. Look at your 1090 booklet and see where the money goes, largely social programs. (By the way, 20% of social security/Medicare recipients are under 65 – check it out at the govt website)
95. Kochevnik, for the last time the Vatican has no part in the New World Order. The NWO hates the Vatican! The NWO wants to rule the world and eliminate all religion except worshiping THEM. The real irony is that you support them wholeheartedly, even as you rant against the banksters. It is because you are a murderer at heart that you can’t see where the battle lines are, and you project onto Christians the works of those who would love to exterminate Christians. You’re on the wrong side!
# 18 Collective relief or revolution ? The core question.
Obama’s intentions are the destruction of America above all else. He has 3 years remaining to further his cause. His present efforts and words are largely a smoke screen toward that end ie concern over debt, jobs, nuclear power,transparency on and on. He has made it his business to create divisions on numerous fronts. Revolution is likely in our future as elections have failed their purpose – to clense out the corrupt, incompetent, greedy, and statists. One should consider acquiring a Concealed Cary permit and appropriate protection before the 2nd ammendment is further attacked. Are you expecting Obama to protect you ? When taxes exceed 50% (California) then you are indeed a servent to the government and ever more dependent there on. A ship of fools. Being afraid is appropriate in these times. Better yet be prepared because we will have the past year times three. Good Luck.
Anonymous
hello… the destruction of america began with george bush, ..this guy killed us.
2.9 million americans, iraquis, afghanistans and palestiniens have been killed and wounded since the wars have been going on…
its true
The west side of the San Joaquin has some great soils for almonds and a host of other tree crops. We should bring in the canal water to help these growers. It gets more complicated for big cotton growers. In order to produce cotton for the world market a federal subsidy is required. It gets kind of complicated as much of the cotton goes to china. China buys cotton and sells us clothes. Our subsidies prevent poor countries like Mali from being competitive in the world cotton market. As far as tree crops I am toally with VDH. The environmenalists want to destroy productive activity whereever the can. They wish to depopulate the San Joaquin and the entire world. Population control. Elites living in downtown condos in SF, LA, NYC, Boston,… I deal with architects and planners and this is the type of society those propeller heads are pushing for. Cap & Trade is a carbon tax to destroy the economy and eventually depopulate the USA and the world. Just go take a urban planning class at your local college.
@44 Seven – “Since the feds want to take us back to 1950 carbon sonsumption, how about us put them also on a 1950 budget diet? EH? Fair enough?”
I don’t think it’s 1950 carbon consumption they want to take us back to. It’s more like 1865; that’s what they want by 2050. I did the calculation some weeks ago, based on the stated goals of the Senate climate bill, plus ORNL’s (Oak Ridge National Laboratory’s) carbon emissions estimates from 1832 onward. It’s possible I made a mistake, of course, but that’s what I got.
Something I forgot: I think that’s 1865 per capita emissions, not 1865 total emissions. I forget what year I got for total emissions.
San Joaquin will be forced to pay tribute to the liberal couple who made pomegranate popular in California. They’re bough up the water rights and will have a monopoly on water distribution in the valley. Coupled with global warming [solar flares or otherwise] it will be a new serfdom for those outside the inner circle.
Agriculture, Mining, Manufacturing, Research and Development.
Those are the Big 4 sectors of every expanding and self sustaining capitalist economy. The only nation on earth that seems to understand that is “socialist” China. Reading the posts on this and other sites confirms that most people have no idea what China is accomplishing, and will accomplish in the next several decades.
America cannot adopt the measures China has, but it could certainly stop spending hundreds of per cent annually above its tax base. And changing the tax code to REWARD and STIMULATE savings would be novel idea. Savings rates of 30-40% are pretty normal here, because people are not Taxed to death if they set aside funds for investment.
Where has the wealth Gone..? follow the money.
Since 1913 when the US govt signed over control of nations banking and currency to foreign banking system ( the Federal Reserve), the US dollar has eroded to the point it is given away by the US Govt in order to support it.
It is today held hostage by the petro dollar system which replaced the gold convertibility system in 1971. This allowed for inflation to shred the dollar to its present day ratio, which results in taking 21.87 to purchase what 1.00 could in 1913. ( in 1970, it took 3.92 to purchase 1.00, so almost all this inflation in in the last 40 years, after removal of gold convertibility).
Its not rocket science, the US government has been complicit in destroying the US dollar, and the US voter is too lazy to research, understand, and change the present system.
Greece, like other EU nations has become more than a society based on hate on greed like America. Whatever their problems, Greeks and other Europeans have a basic human right to health care while all but the richest Americans are denied this right and must be forced to grovel before the K-Street overlords or risk being left to die when one inevitably gets hit by one of the bullets that are ever present in America’s urban centers. (What happens when people have access to guns but no access to food, shelter, and health care? That is the American nightmare.)
9-11 propagandists like Hanson stir up racism against Muslims in order to keep Americans in thrall to the oligarchy of Bernie Madoff, Bill Gates, and the Texas oil barons who are poisoning are our Mother Earth so she can no longer sustain our lives. (I wonder if Hanson believes he will be able to secure a place in one of the Forbes 400′ self-contained biospheres that will become the only places capable of sustaining life once our Mother dies.)
Poor Europeans take to the streets and protest because sometimes their governments hear their cry and respond with compassion, sometimes, but not always, the effects of US imperialism and the racism of their colonial past can mean callousness like is typical in America. Their American counterparts merely die of exposure, starvation, and treatable medical conditions, or else, they turn to crime, for even if they get caught, they can at least go to prison and secure the basic rights of food, shelter, and health care that a compassionate society would provide unconditionally for all.
VDH’s essay as given us all a chance to pontificate and for many to kick the dogs they hate the most.
“Where did our real wealth go?” Great question. In the recent housing bubble it SEEMED as if real wealth was being created, as real houses were being built by real people, but apparently all the wealth beyond a certain point was illusionary and the blame can go out to so many quarters.
Automation and outsourcing are clearly two huge factors in reducing the number of people who build or grow things. Far more people repair, sell, serve, or transport products, than create them. Then there are millions of politicians, government workers, soldiers, teachers, policemen, and firemen, who don’t produce anything, but provide a service and whose salaries and eventually retirements are paid from taxes; state, local, and Federal.
Financial services is another huge, and one could argue, overpaid sector, but their salaries are not, at least until the double-bail-outs, paid by taxes.
Markets in this country, with and without government intrusion have produced some terrific boom-bust cycles from the Revolutionary War to the present. So far, we have always been able to find our next bubble, er, boom.
One terrific source of income is communications technology and cable providers, producing ways to communicate much more profusely, and permitting us to jabber on here.
OK, I’m exhausted, now; someone else can continue from here, if they will promise not to “solve” our problems simply by consigning some group (in this democratic republic)…to hell. All these groups have self-interest and a vote, whether you like it or not. Our “solution” has to be perceived to “work” by at least 51% (+ or – 10%) of the people.
Good luck to all of us.
This is the Opus Magnus, the whole enchilada if you please, of our current state of existence. We are no longer a society that values personal freedom; rather, we view capital as public property. More accurately, we view the world as “What’s mine is mine, and what’s yours is mine”.
When we as Americans began accepting Welfare and charity without hesitation, eventually looking at these privileges as entitements, even rights, we began the path of our own destruction.
I was speaking with my teenagers last night about life, liberty, and the pursuit of property, their role in the comong World, and my dependence on them as our last, best hope. I think that they are beginning to get it. At least, they are listening.
The statist-radical-progressive Democrats have managed to spend the wealth of our great nation for over 45 years. The size of government both Federal and States has expanded so immensely that the working citizen taxpayers can no longer support them. The salaries and benefits for government “workers” is over the top and needs to be brought into line with social security benefits for the peons. If the Republican leaders are smart, they will incorporate the tea party policies into their platform and run conservative candidates. No more RINO’s and traitors like Sen Spector of Pennsylvania. Dump all the Democrats and RINO’s. Go Tea Party, Go Conservatives, Go Republicans!
This topic was a tough one for me. I’m glad I could get my fix on NRO.
Greeks know who stole their wealth. Of course, they are the birthplace of democracy, not the corrals for mercenary consumerist debt slave sheeple.
We have lost our ability to determine what a good decision looks like. We have been demorilized as a country.
I offer a foundation truth upon which many complex decisions can be logically apended.
**********
The correct role of government is to be wealthy and with that wealth be able to provide necessary services to it’s citizens. The foundation of the governments wealth is the careful nurturing of taxible wealth, equity in the hands of all citizens.
**********
This statement is applicable to any form of government. When Governments ultimately fail, failure is a process of becoming illigitimate through not being economically strong enough to supply the protection, services or control that the citizens require.
My comment as been “awaiting moderation” for more than 24 hours now? What’s up?
Dwight:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
VDH’s essay has given us all a chance to pontificate and for many to kick the dogs they hate the most.
“Where did our real wealth go?” Great question. In the recent housing bubble it SEEMED as if real wealth was being created, as real houses were being built by real people, but apparently all the wealth beyond a certain point was illusionary and the blame can go out to so many quarters.
Automation and outsourcing are clearly two huge factors in reducing the number of people who build or grow things. Far more people repair, sell, serve, or transport products, than create them. Then there are millions of politicians, government workers, soldiers, teachers, policemen, and firemen, who don’t produce anything, but provide a service and whose salaries and eventually retirements are paid from taxes; state, local, and Federal.
Financial services is another huge, and one could argue, overpaid sector, but their salaries are not, at least until the double-bail-outs, paid by taxes.
Markets in this country, with and without government intrusion have produced some terrific boom-bust cycles from the Revolutionary War to the present. So far, we have always been able to find our next bubble, er, boom.
One terrific source of income is communications technology and cable providers, producing ways to communicate much more profusely, and permitting us to jabber on here.
OK, I’m exhausted, now; someone else can continue from here, if they will promise not to “solve” our problems simply by consigning some group (in this democratic republic)…to hell. All these groups have self-interest and a vote, whether you like it or not. Our “solution” has to be perceived to “work” by at least 51% (+ or – 10%) of the people.
Good luck to all of us.
There is a most excellent quote being passsed around the internet “The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates” attrubuted to Tacitus. Did Tacitus really write this and what was the original Latin.
I think it would make a splendid motto for the US Congress.
VDH:
“Would collective relief or revolution follow?”
Yes, both will happen and the same party (the tea party/conservatives) will be blamed for both. The question is; how much violence can we tolerate before we lose control? As you have pointed out repeatedly the “blame Bush” mantra of the left is still in full swing, this is by design so that when their policies fail it’s not their fault but the fault of those who opposed them. It’s the message they will use to rally the government unions to the streets.
There is one other message from the left, it is; “it’s not my fault”. (Ayn Rand wrote the script for the left and they are following it to the T). The left cannot produce any wealth and they cannot take responsibility for not doing so but they are experts at dreaming up ways to steal wealth from the wealth creators but they won’t take responsibility for that either.
From the conservative side it must be continually pointed out that the “blame Bush” mantra of the left is simply being used to avoid responsibility for their own actions, something the left has always done.
The other conservative message has to be the medicine of reform, tough love, serious belt tightening and a positive picture of the incredible shrinking government and the benefits that will result. Yes the conservatives will be rightly blamed for removing the parasites from the backs of the tax payer. The parasites won’t like it. They will scream loud and long.
Thank you Mr. Hanson and keep up the good work.
What happend to:
Yesterday´s:
Home on the range?
Oh, give me a home where the buffalo roam,
…
And the skies are not cloudy all day.
Today´s:
Oh, give me smaller gov,
As big ONE I loathe,
There foamy-mouthers hold sway,
To push dark clouds our way.
A terrific read and I expect we will see this tone bubble up more often. I sense the media (talking heads) are starting to attack rather than wow at the wonderful diversity of culture in the common land and now in the political land.
You may want to bone up on growth area’s and trending. You obviously are looking at the world from a baby boomers perspective. Your teeth are falling out now……have faith in someone other than yourself….new teeth (generation) will come in. Let it happen and don’t be so arrogant to point fingers.
The raw resources of the future don’t look the same as they did while you were learning how to ranch. The raw resource of the future are bits & bites ( + and – ) electronic opponents. How these bits and bites are delivered and organized will rule the world. Content is everything in the future. Whether educational or entertainment electronic content is EVERYTHING. Nerds will prevail. You may wish to analize how the under 30 year old uses their time.
There has been a shift from steel (auto business) and Ford’s mass production line to cable/wireless infrastructure.
Obviously the basics are necessary but the future is star-trek like communcation and interaction. Nerds will rule.
The drive-thru is done but the plug-in will produce an economy that you may not understand yet.
The shift is starting to get messy and obviously the politians don’t know what to do. Then again, they are all over 30.
Microsoft, Apple and Sony will rule the world and know how to tax us.
Education will be everything.
Coincidentally, Mark Steyn has a column on the subject of Greece that, while lighter in tone and style, is just as grim on the subject of Greece as the precursor to America’s future.
It can be found at http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/greece-236468-government-america.html, “America’s future could be all Greek to us”.
@Poor Citizen:
You have no understanding whatsoever of the terms you sling about. Do you even have any idea what the term “neo con” means or from where it originates?
I don’t think you even read VDH’s essay. The Blame Bush mantra is wearing thin and VDH demonstrates why with crystal clarity, yet you pop in here and repeat Chairman Zero’s tiresome rhetoric.
Depart. Your presence is not required.
Wow this article does give someone many different points of view and a lot to think about.
Comrade Citizen Progressive
Progressive agenda for 21st-century America
My Fellow Forum Members. Yes, the election is over, but the work has just begun.We progressives should prepare once again to play our role as agents of bold ideas and political social transformation in the Midterm elections in which members of Congress, state legislatures, and some state governors are elected. We progressives will have to reflect a belief in the need for change. We must support our party through charity, through volunteerism, local and state governments, though surely all have a role. We should argue that we need programs that serve our national and international needs and encourage faith in our public institutions, creating a positive cycle of political change and space for further reform, advocate for true reform of our tax system so that everyone pays their fair share.
We progressives should reach out to recruit new members who share our goals and want to join our fight. Our movement lies in being an unapologetic champion for progressive ideas. Finding new confidence and imagination, we have begun to renew our political capital. Just remember this. For struggle, Solidarity and Socialism! I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Obama. Our laws and his will, according to him. We will not overthrow the government with violence. We shall stand, remain and be the law of his realm forever. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead for Obama to deliver them from evil.
I’ll gear this review to two kinds of people: current Zune owners that are considering an upgrade, and people trying to decide in between a Zune and an ipod. (There are more players worth taking into consideration available, such as the Sony Walkman X, but I hope this gives you sufficient info to create an informed decision of the Zune vs players besides ipod and iphone line too.)
What do you put in a http://www.ashing machine? Net curtains!