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	<title>Comments on: The Tragic Self</title>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2438</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2438</guid>
		<description>Yes, Trudy....my children both attended our local junior college for their first &quot;60 hours&quot; and, in the main, had classes at least every bit as serious and substantial as what they later encountered at state universities (&quot;Advertizing and Self Esteem&quot;, &quot;Women&#039;s Perspective on the Media&quot;, etc.).  Not to mention the greater affordability which allowed my kids to work and earn their own way in those first years...and gain a true &quot;perspective&quot; on their daily lives.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Trudy&#8230;.my children both attended our local junior college for their first &#8220;60 hours&#8221; and, in the main, had classes at least every bit as serious and substantial as what they later encountered at state universities (&#8220;Advertizing and Self Esteem&#8221;, &#8220;Women&#8217;s Perspective on the Media&#8221;, etc.).  Not to mention the greater affordability which allowed my kids to work and earn their own way in those first years&#8230;and gain a true &#8220;perspective&#8221; on their daily lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Kenton</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2437</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Kenton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2437</guid>
		<description>Trudy B. Taylor -

We had this discussion as each of my kids went to college:

- I do not pay for grades below C.
- I do not pay for useless degrees.  Gender studies, queer studies, women&#039;s studies, sociology, anthropology.
- you match your debt to your future income.  Medical school is one debt level, elementary ed is another.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trudy B. Taylor -</p>
<p>We had this discussion as each of my kids went to college:</p>
<p>- I do not pay for grades below C.<br />
- I do not pay for useless degrees.  Gender studies, queer studies, women&#8217;s studies, sociology, anthropology.<br />
- you match your debt to your future income.  Medical school is one debt level, elementary ed is another.</p>
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		<title>By: Trudy B. Taylor</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2436</link>
		<dc:creator>Trudy B. Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 20:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2436</guid>
		<description>ahhhh...the trouble with (college)kids these days... it really dates us old timers (read: boomers, and how ironic is that?)to be complaining about those whippersnappers,eh? but let me add my opinion to the pile. most of these students would be doing everyone, including their parents and themselves, a favor if they would go to a good, local jr college for the first 60 hours (notice i didnt say first two years) of their post secondary scholastic sojourns . the next stop should be a reasonably good state college or university. there they should research and choose a major that will actually translate into a job which pays a living wage, this would not be psychology, anthropology, or sociology for starters.
parents should step up to the plate and make a few demands in these areas.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ahhhh&#8230;the trouble with (college)kids these days&#8230; it really dates us old timers (read: boomers, and how ironic is that?)to be complaining about those whippersnappers,eh? but let me add my opinion to the pile. most of these students would be doing everyone, including their parents and themselves, a favor if they would go to a good, local jr college for the first 60 hours (notice i didnt say first two years) of their post secondary scholastic sojourns . the next stop should be a reasonably good state college or university. there they should research and choose a major that will actually translate into a job which pays a living wage, this would not be psychology, anthropology, or sociology for starters.<br />
parents should step up to the plate and make a few demands in these areas.</p>
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		<title>By: Bowden Russell</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2435</link>
		<dc:creator>Bowden Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2435</guid>
		<description>Jdg,

You are correct.  The current generation in their 20&#039;s are beyond morally bankrupt/corrupt.  They are lazy with a capital &quot;L&quot; and it&#039;s the 800 pound gorilla no one wants to mention.

They spend most of the down-time at college drinking.  Let them get a job like I did when I was their age.

Of course I&#039;m not suprised that they are Obama&#039;s key constituency.

A pack of drunks and hop-heads.  Way to go Democratic Party.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jdg,</p>
<p>You are correct.  The current generation in their 20&#8242;s are beyond morally bankrupt/corrupt.  They are lazy with a capital &#8220;L&#8221; and it&#8217;s the 800 pound gorilla no one wants to mention.</p>
<p>They spend most of the down-time at college drinking.  Let them get a job like I did when I was their age.</p>
<p>Of course I&#8217;m not suprised that they are Obama&#8217;s key constituency.</p>
<p>A pack of drunks and hop-heads.  Way to go Democratic Party.</p>
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		<title>By: jdg</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2434</link>
		<dc:creator>jdg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2434</guid>
		<description>The very idea that college kids should get loans is silly.  They go to class for 12 to 15 hours a week (if they are &quot;full time&quot;) and many be do another 5 hours a week of homework, if they are &quot;highly motivated&quot;).  And what?  They can&#039;t work part time to pay tuition and very modest living expenses?  Please.

The fact is, most college kids get drunk and do drugs multiple times per week and have lots of free time on their hands.  When they graduate, few of them are productive employees.  Fewer still are loyal.

They don&#039;t need loans.  They need to grow up and be accountable.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The very idea that college kids should get loans is silly.  They go to class for 12 to 15 hours a week (if they are &#8220;full time&#8221;) and many be do another 5 hours a week of homework, if they are &#8220;highly motivated&#8221;).  And what?  They can&#8217;t work part time to pay tuition and very modest living expenses?  Please.</p>
<p>The fact is, most college kids get drunk and do drugs multiple times per week and have lots of free time on their hands.  When they graduate, few of them are productive employees.  Fewer still are loyal.</p>
<p>They don&#8217;t need loans.  They need to grow up and be accountable.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve MacDonald</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2433</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve MacDonald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2433</guid>
		<description>One minor comment/correction. I believe &quot;upscale yuppie whites&quot; to be a subset of &quot;working whites.&quot;

I have always found the popular and over worked &quot;working class&quot; to be an extremely unhelpful and innacurate term in identifying groups of people/voters. I believe working whites and working class to be virtually synonomous in this context.

Aside from my pet grievance, great post.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One minor comment/correction. I believe &#8220;upscale yuppie whites&#8221; to be a subset of &#8220;working whites.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have always found the popular and over worked &#8220;working class&#8221; to be an extremely unhelpful and innacurate term in identifying groups of people/voters. I believe working whites and working class to be virtually synonomous in this context.</p>
<p>Aside from my pet grievance, great post.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Mandel</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2432</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Mandel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2432</guid>
		<description>Professor,

I have admired your work and wisdom for several years.  I have committed myself to reading the classical histories, and cannot help but feel we are already too far along to face what the Romans did, and too, face their same fate.  I don&#039;t have your scholarly background, and you could well elaborate far better than I.

However, considering that fully (or almost fully) half the population will vote for a candidate that promises socialist utopianism, I cannot think other than we are doomed.  We are trillions in debt, have tens of trillions more in unfunded entitlements in the near future, a corroding infrastructure, deep cultural/tribal divides (democrats split between the &quot;black&quot; vote, the &quot;hispanic&quot; vote, et al. while republicans languish over the &quot;conservative&quot; vote.  no more stark a contrast possible: race vs. ideology), and are becoming a de facto bi/multi-lingual society.  e pluribus no more.

Half of all Americans pay no income taxes, yet benefit enormously from the half that do.  And they demand only more.

Please offer a glimmer of hope.  It isn&#039;t that we&#039;ve not faced serious hurdles previously, it&#039;s that the very nature of our republic is lost.  It reminds me of Ammianus, who knew Rome&#039;s best was in the past, yet couldn&#039;t come to admit it.  I hope I&#039;m wrong, but fear I&#039;m not.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Professor,</p>
<p>I have admired your work and wisdom for several years.  I have committed myself to reading the classical histories, and cannot help but feel we are already too far along to face what the Romans did, and too, face their same fate.  I don&#8217;t have your scholarly background, and you could well elaborate far better than I.</p>
<p>However, considering that fully (or almost fully) half the population will vote for a candidate that promises socialist utopianism, I cannot think other than we are doomed.  We are trillions in debt, have tens of trillions more in unfunded entitlements in the near future, a corroding infrastructure, deep cultural/tribal divides (democrats split between the &#8220;black&#8221; vote, the &#8220;hispanic&#8221; vote, et al. while republicans languish over the &#8220;conservative&#8221; vote.  no more stark a contrast possible: race vs. ideology), and are becoming a de facto bi/multi-lingual society.  e pluribus no more.</p>
<p>Half of all Americans pay no income taxes, yet benefit enormously from the half that do.  And they demand only more.</p>
<p>Please offer a glimmer of hope.  It isn&#8217;t that we&#8217;ve not faced serious hurdles previously, it&#8217;s that the very nature of our republic is lost.  It reminds me of Ammianus, who knew Rome&#8217;s best was in the past, yet couldn&#8217;t come to admit it.  I hope I&#8217;m wrong, but fear I&#8217;m not.</p>
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		<title>By: Morton Doodslag</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2431</link>
		<dc:creator>Morton Doodslag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2431</guid>
		<description>There appears to be an inverse relationship when it comes to the politics of victimhood between the rhetoric and vitriol used, and the actual conditions on the street.  For example, the West has never been more affluent -- society has never been more open to opportunities for &quot;oppressed&quot; people, there have never been more handouts and assistance for &quot;the poor&quot; than today.  Yet their narrative would convince you that things have never been worse for women, blacks, and other minorities.  Never mind that a black man and a woman have risen to the pinnacle of power -- never mind that blacks and women have become billionaires in various industries -- never mind that more wealth resides in more American homes than ever before in history -- We are told by these victimology pimps that it has never been worse, that government oppression has never been more ominous (this while advocating the largest expansions of government power in human history...).

This has an ominous parallel in Islam.  The more concessions these demanding ungrateful and greedy Muslims extract from the West, the more vicious their denunciations of us become.  Preposterous claims of victimhood at our hands become more lurid and inflamed daily.  The more concessions and money and open hands proffered to Pakistanis and &quot;Palestinians&quot; and Saudis -- the more venomous hatred treachery and contempt spews from their mouths.

It&#039;s clear that the deal of &quot;winning the hearts and minds&quot; of people who claim victimhood, and then demand endless concessions from us is no deal whatsoever.  Their greedy maw is a bottomless pit of demand, and their hatred and contempt is a bottomless well of poison.

The victim pimps of the Left along with the victim pimps of Islam only become emboldened and inflamed by concessions from us.

Perhaps it was never about concessions in the first place, but about a deliberate tactic to subvert, demoralize and destroy the object of their hatred by bleeding it dry and spitting on its corpse.

The Western edifice is the object of the Left&#039;s hatred, and of Islam&#039;s venomous hatred.  It has proven through its actions that it is hardly monster both Islam and the Left claim.  It has repeatedly proven itself to be fair and open to concessions and extremely generous.  It proves itself through actions to be both tolerant, and open to change.  Yet this fact doesn&#039;t mollify the demands of Islam&#039;s and the Left&#039;s high priests.  Our actions have only increased their greedy demands and their vitriol.

Think of it -- we allow millions of Muslims to immigrate into the hated West where we dispense opportunities and a helping hand.  We treat them as worthies, encourage them to succeed.  They repay us with venom and treachery, and a honed desire to see us annihilated.

On the left, 6 decades of concessions to change and true progress doesn&#039;t engender much respect or fondness for our system.  Our actions have fueled their increasingly histrionic rhetoric of victimhood, and expression of hatred for our system until it is beyond parody.

&quot;Winning hearts and minds&quot; seems like an abject failure.  We only did it with the Japanese and the Germans after so soundly kicking their asses that they didn&#039;t dream of stabbing us in the back.  Perhaps we should reconsider our approach to the Left and Islam?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There appears to be an inverse relationship when it comes to the politics of victimhood between the rhetoric and vitriol used, and the actual conditions on the street.  For example, the West has never been more affluent &#8212; society has never been more open to opportunities for &#8220;oppressed&#8221; people, there have never been more handouts and assistance for &#8220;the poor&#8221; than today.  Yet their narrative would convince you that things have never been worse for women, blacks, and other minorities.  Never mind that a black man and a woman have risen to the pinnacle of power &#8212; never mind that blacks and women have become billionaires in various industries &#8212; never mind that more wealth resides in more American homes than ever before in history &#8212; We are told by these victimology pimps that it has never been worse, that government oppression has never been more ominous (this while advocating the largest expansions of government power in human history&#8230;).</p>
<p>This has an ominous parallel in Islam.  The more concessions these demanding ungrateful and greedy Muslims extract from the West, the more vicious their denunciations of us become.  Preposterous claims of victimhood at our hands become more lurid and inflamed daily.  The more concessions and money and open hands proffered to Pakistanis and &#8220;Palestinians&#8221; and Saudis &#8212; the more venomous hatred treachery and contempt spews from their mouths.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s clear that the deal of &#8220;winning the hearts and minds&#8221; of people who claim victimhood, and then demand endless concessions from us is no deal whatsoever.  Their greedy maw is a bottomless pit of demand, and their hatred and contempt is a bottomless well of poison.</p>
<p>The victim pimps of the Left along with the victim pimps of Islam only become emboldened and inflamed by concessions from us.</p>
<p>Perhaps it was never about concessions in the first place, but about a deliberate tactic to subvert, demoralize and destroy the object of their hatred by bleeding it dry and spitting on its corpse.</p>
<p>The Western edifice is the object of the Left&#8217;s hatred, and of Islam&#8217;s venomous hatred.  It has proven through its actions that it is hardly monster both Islam and the Left claim.  It has repeatedly proven itself to be fair and open to concessions and extremely generous.  It proves itself through actions to be both tolerant, and open to change.  Yet this fact doesn&#8217;t mollify the demands of Islam&#8217;s and the Left&#8217;s high priests.  Our actions have only increased their greedy demands and their vitriol.</p>
<p>Think of it &#8212; we allow millions of Muslims to immigrate into the hated West where we dispense opportunities and a helping hand.  We treat them as worthies, encourage them to succeed.  They repay us with venom and treachery, and a honed desire to see us annihilated.</p>
<p>On the left, 6 decades of concessions to change and true progress doesn&#8217;t engender much respect or fondness for our system.  Our actions have fueled their increasingly histrionic rhetoric of victimhood, and expression of hatred for our system until it is beyond parody.</p>
<p>&#8220;Winning hearts and minds&#8221; seems like an abject failure.  We only did it with the Japanese and the Germans after so soundly kicking their asses that they didn&#8217;t dream of stabbing us in the back.  Perhaps we should reconsider our approach to the Left and Islam?</p>
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		<title>By: James- The Historian</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2430</link>
		<dc:creator>James- The Historian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:25:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2430</guid>
		<description>Here is a slightly different perspective on the need for the government to finance higher education.

1. Let&#039;s start with the institutions themselves and cut the cost of all the unnecessary non degree track socialist programs that continue to drive up expenses.

2. Start by going to a very affordable Community College for the first two years and save tens of thousands in costs, learn in much smaller lower division classes, be taught by career educators as opposed to grad assistants and avoid the room and board bills.

We do not need federal subsidies, we need common sense.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a slightly different perspective on the need for the government to finance higher education.</p>
<p>1. Let&#8217;s start with the institutions themselves and cut the cost of all the unnecessary non degree track socialist programs that continue to drive up expenses.</p>
<p>2. Start by going to a very affordable Community College for the first two years and save tens of thousands in costs, learn in much smaller lower division classes, be taught by career educators as opposed to grad assistants and avoid the room and board bills.</p>
<p>We do not need federal subsidies, we need common sense.</p>
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		<title>By: cfbleachers</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/the_tragic_self/#comment-2429</link>
		<dc:creator>cfbleachers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Feb 2008 17:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/2008/02/16/the-tragic-self/#comment-2429</guid>
		<description>The problem that I share with you VDH, is that we are both turn of the century at heart, unfortunately, not this century.

We would much prefer those who chose to run, sought to serve principles rather than principals.

We would much prefer not to have our opinions spoon fed to us, pre-masticated in soundbite size pieces.

We would much prefer that our news be delivered to us without the need for two tablets of Dramamine and that there was at least a modicum of difference from the front page and the editorial page.

We would much prefer that the &quot;best of us&quot; would sacrifice in order to run for office to represent the whole of us, rather than the most narcissistic of us running for the power to pander to the farthest fringes in an ever widening orbit away from the nucleus of what we stand for and against.

We would much prefer that empty campaign rhetoric would be replaced by honest and intelligent discussion of issues that matter to the republic for which we stand, rather than lightweight lightning rod issues that stand down the republic in the eyes of the world.

We live in a time in America where the media owns the truth, decides what it is, shapes it, repackages it and then tsk tsk&#039;s those who have the temerity to distrust it.  We would rather live in a time when the facts were treasured, not measured.

Keep up the good fight VDH.  Your patience and eloquence far exceed my own.  For my part, I would tear down the two party system completely, expose its fringes for what they are, cease the mindless pandering and start over from scratch.  You are a far better man than I...and for that we are forever in your debt.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem that I share with you VDH, is that we are both turn of the century at heart, unfortunately, not this century.</p>
<p>We would much prefer those who chose to run, sought to serve principles rather than principals.</p>
<p>We would much prefer not to have our opinions spoon fed to us, pre-masticated in soundbite size pieces.</p>
<p>We would much prefer that our news be delivered to us without the need for two tablets of Dramamine and that there was at least a modicum of difference from the front page and the editorial page.</p>
<p>We would much prefer that the &#8220;best of us&#8221; would sacrifice in order to run for office to represent the whole of us, rather than the most narcissistic of us running for the power to pander to the farthest fringes in an ever widening orbit away from the nucleus of what we stand for and against.</p>
<p>We would much prefer that empty campaign rhetoric would be replaced by honest and intelligent discussion of issues that matter to the republic for which we stand, rather than lightweight lightning rod issues that stand down the republic in the eyes of the world.</p>
<p>We live in a time in America where the media owns the truth, decides what it is, shapes it, repackages it and then tsk tsk&#8217;s those who have the temerity to distrust it.  We would rather live in a time when the facts were treasured, not measured.</p>
<p>Keep up the good fight VDH.  Your patience and eloquence far exceed my own.  For my part, I would tear down the two party system completely, expose its fringes for what they are, cease the mindless pandering and start over from scratch.  You are a far better man than I&#8230;and for that we are forever in your debt.</p>
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