The Rise of the Uncouth
So What?
No one objected. A Dan Rather said nothing—but tried to pass off forged documents to alter the election. A Bill Moyers piled on. There was no voice of “Now, wait a minute, this is going too far.” Did the Left assume that they were going to be perpetually bomb-tossers, forever on the outside of Karl Rove’s ballyhooed three-decades of Republican supremacy to come?
What Comes Around, Goes…
And then something strange and quite unexpected happened. The Democrats nominated a charismatic African-American, won the presidency, after obtaining large majorities in Congress, and suddenly became the Establishment, demanding respect for the Commander in Chief in direct proportion to their efforts to deny respect to his predecessor. Then just as suddenly two tropes appeared after January 20th of this year:
One—cannot we all get along? We deplore this resort to barbarism and crudity.
Two—if you dare sound off like we just did, then you are now a racist.
Not So Fast
The problem is that the public is not really stupid and has a long memory. It hates hypocrisy as much as it does crudity. Part of Obama’s decline is precisely because of this sudden disingenuousness in which one rises to the top on hardball, Chicago politics and playing identity politics (remember Rev. Wright, Ayers, “typical white people”, clingers, etc.), and then of course wants an end to the crudity (like hoping the music stops only when you have grabbed that last chair).
Or so Obama said that he wanted a sort of end to the acrimony. But once he was elected, we got Eric Holder slurring the nation, the President slurring the police, the environmental jobs czar slurring almost everyone, and a host of satellites like Charles Rangel and Diane Watson leveling charges of racism.
So where do go from here?
The standards of civilly, torn down during the 1960s, were obliterated completely after 9/11 (hours after, actually, when Michael Moore (Jimmy Carter’s hero) wished a red-state had been hit instead). We have no more “Wise Men” in Washington and New York, but rather graying children of the Sixties, aging badly. A large segment of the left—from Code Pink and Moveon.org to Acorn and the unions—believe that they really can smear and defame and then retreat to mythical standards of decency when they are now on the receiving end. Does anyone believe that the amateur hit journalists who caught Acorn red-handed used tactics any different from Mike Wallace and the 60 Minutes team?
Back to Corfu
The historian Thucydides has a wonderful chapter in his third book on the stasis at Corcyra on all this. In short, he says when rules, decorum, respect, and commonly accepted behaviors are jettisoned for short-term advantage, then the thin veneer of civilization, in other words the law, is scratched away and we peer at our natural Rousseauian selves below. And quite a scary sight that is, natural man without civilization.
Even more brilliant is the historian’s irony. When those on the outs, who excel through seeking the ends by any means, soon find themselves as the establishment, they want no more like themselves. (I don’t think First Lady Michelle now wishes anyone to charge her nation with being a mean country, or would want any guest to her White House to tell her that he is not proud of suddenly liberal America; cf. Obama’s sudden distrust of the community-organizing Tea Partiers and Town Hallers who are out-organizing Acorn).
But too late. Once the walls are stormed, and ramparts of decency in rubble, it is very hard to rebuild the stones to fend off the barbarians, given the power of natural coarseness, and the problem of legitimacy and irony (Why should we believe that you are shocked at Joe Wilson now, when you booed George Bush not long ago?)
Enough?
The solution, of course, is for the majority to simply say enough is enough, and declare a personal code of decency: “I will not stoop to smear and slur, won’t interrupt a speaker, won’t call anyone a Nazi, won’t do to others what they’ve done to me.” Only that sort of code will end the craziness.
In the short-term it is a losing political formula for conservatives, but in the long term it is the only way to restore sanity and a winning strategy. The New York Times is moribund for reasons other than the Internet. Most (I have not bought a copy in 5 years) won’t read it because of the vitriol of a Maureen Dowd or Frank Rich, and the crass editorials disguised as news accounts on the front page. Obama’s ratings have dived because of the Gates mess, Van Jones, and the Chicago political style. Even Oprah is having problems, once America’s sweetheart went out in a fury on the campaign trail, and used her stature to play on identity politics.
No one needs to become Pollyanna or shocked at occasional tough hits (I’ve been booed and shouted down at a few public lectures by mostly middle-class students parading as “the people” on the barricades), but instead simply refrain from calling your enemy a Nazi or screaming at an official in the middle of a speech, or, like Maureen Dowd, dreaming of kicking Dick Cheney at a reception. The point is not to ostracize or point fingers at others in moralistic fashion, but just simply say, “That’s not my way.”
Otherwise?
Otherwise, we won’t have a tennis match, an awards ceremony, a Presidential speech, a congressional debate—much of anything without some hysterical rant from the unhinged.
South Carolina has a long list of dignitaries that includes Lauren Caitlin Upton (Miss Teen USA 2007 pageant contestant), Board of Education Chair, Kristin Maguire, Governor (and avid Appalachian hiker), Mark Sanford and now Joe “the hater not a debater” Wilson or the “screamer not the dreamer” as others have dubbed him. I did enjoy him cut and running through his apology, which only goes to show that he stands for nothing. He is just another good old boy where in the morning these married men preach to you that there should be prayer in our schools and in the evening they are on their cell phones setting up a date with their other women on the side, hypocrisy has been bred in. I am not surprised that he felt compel to yell like he was at some Friday night game. So long Joey, you too will be seeing the unemployment lines.
We live in a society where Rudeness Is Rewarded.
And as someone born in the early-70s, I have lived in such a society all my life.
Intellectually, on a higher level, I agree that all this vitriol should stop.
However, intellectually I fear that if we wait things out in the meantime The Left will succeed in their goal of destroying this country they hate so much (you could argue that they only hate the American Revolution and instead love the French Revolution; that their hatred doesn’t extend to the “country” only its founding principles, but … ).
McCain tried to be “Mr. Nice and Civil” and he got this head handed to him. I think Republicans have learned not to come to a gun fight with only a copy of Emily Post.
And emotionally, I feel that The Democrats sowed the wind, let them reap the whirlwind.
They spent the last 8 years mainstreaming hate.
Professor, sir, your essay is not perfect! However, your essay is very good, perhaps even close to being a complete analysis of our current political discourse, and that is sufficient!
“The solution, of course, is for the majority to simply say enough is enough, and declare a personal code of decency…”
Well, yes, of course.
But to use the vernacular of the times, “Fat chance.”
Victor a reasoned and necessary call for civility in our political discourse. I’m not sure that some who post here will agree with your call for restraint, but one can always hope.
Now for one nit pick.
“A Rep. Stark or Rep. Wilson, whether left or right, were Sixties people, a generation known for its hip crassness and uncouthness. The baby boomers themselves abdicated the role of elder statesmen, and instead need in their dotage to be taught before they can teach anyone. The proper censors are in the graveyards, a better mannered generation used to hardship and war, whose legacy of standards we have squandered.”
At the end of your paragraph I believe you are referring to the parents of the sixties generation (the greatest generation). I guess they failed in the teaching of those qualities whose absence you lament. Oh well I guess they had too much on their plates to do child rearing correctly or did a whole generation just decide to ignore their parents example?
In our so-called “post racial era” Maureen Dowd in Sunday’s New York Times predictably ascribed Congressman Joe Wilson’s outburst to President Obama speech on healthcare to a joint session of Congress that “you lie” to racism:
“Wilson clearly did not like being lectured and even rebuked by the brainy black president presiding over the majestic chamber. . . . Some people just can’t believe a lack man is president and will never accept it.”
But today we woke up to two news stories regarding blacks gone wild.
At the MTV Music Video Awards, in a bizarre scene where Taylor Swift (who is white) was giving an acceptance speech for her VMA Award, Kanye West (who is black) took the microphone from her hand, apparently because he apparently believed that Beyonce’s “Single Ladies” deserved the award instead. Rolling Stone reported:
“Yo Taylor, I’m really happy for you, I’ll let you finish, but Beyonce has one of the best videos of all time. One of the best videos of all time!,” Kanye shouted to a mortified Swift and the speechless audience. According to sources at the VMAs, Swift was seen hysterically crying backstage after Kanye’s outburst, making it convenient that her performance of ‘You Belong to Me,’ which immediately followed the acceptance speech, was prerecorded. Wale, who is serving as MC for the house band, told the crowd, ‘You can’t fault a man for speaking his mind,’ which was promptly met by boos from the Radio City Music Hall crowd.”
It would be easy to ascribe unvarnished racism as the animating force behind West’s outburst. West later apologized for his behavior.
Also on Sunday, tennis great Serena Williams had some apologies to make of her own. As reported by Total Pro Sports:
“Last night’s semifinals match between Serena Williams and Kim Clijsters was the epitome of craziness as the game ended in the most unusual fashion after Serena was penalized on match point, costing her the game, set, and match. After already receiving a code violation warning for breaking her racket after losing the first set, Williams was serving 5-6, 15-30 in the second. She faulted on her first serve and on her second attempt was called for a foot foul by the line judge. That cost her a crucial point at an important part of the game as Clijsters was now one point away from advancing to the finals. Serena responded to the call in a rather inaffable manner, making her way over to the line judge to shout and curse at her as she waved her racket and ball in disgust.”
Dropping the f-word liberally, Williams said, “I swear to God I’m [expletive] going to take this [expletive] ball and shove it down your [expletive] throat, you hear that? I swear to God.”
Again, was race the motivating factor behind Williams’ tantrum? Maybe. She could have been angry, losing to Clijsters (who is white) or one could take notice that the tirade was launched against the line judge who is a diminutive Japanese woman.
And let’s not forget Van Jones, who among other things, called Republicans (as Ben Stein put it) a “barnyard epithet.” Something Jones later had to apologize for on his way out the White House door.
But in the end, what difference does it make whether West’s tactless behavior was motivated by racism. It was still awful. The only bright spot of the episode was Beyonce’s graciousness in later inviting Swift back up to the stage to finish her acceptance speech.
What difference does it make whether racism caused Williams’ meltdown? It was shameful nonetheless.
We should declare a moratorium, or even better retire the old “racism” trope. Bad behavior whether by Wilson, West, Williams (is it racism, poor temperament or because their last names begin with “W”?) is still crass, rude and beneath the dignity of all involved. Let’s not questions anyone’s motives any more and just call unacceptable behavior out when we see it. There’s really no good reason to try to score extra cheap political points by crying racism to condemn already appalling behavior.
Incivility is a consequence of non-punishment.
Incivility, after all, has its own pleasures: that of venting one’s feelings, and that of seeing despised others quail before one’s words and gestures. When the old Gentleman’s Code prevailed in common society, such acts and words would be sharply rebuffed, sometimes to the point of blows. Compared to the Americans of yesteryear who enforced that code, we’re a milk-and-water bunch indeed.
And of course we have the observations of Thomas de Quincey:
Draw the moral!
“or end up caning each other, as on the eve of the Civil War. He apologized to the President, and should have.”
Why should he have? The President did lie, and baldly.
The “liberals” in this country are not liberal at all, what “progressives” want is not progress, and I must believe they are not post-Western, but are a mouldered branch which will not exist long enough to bring down the trunk. I will not believe what is best since 1776 is in vain.
The rules of political discourse are not that it must be polite, but that it must be effective. I note the provisions Obama lied about have been and for now remain amended in such a way as to retcon him into “truthfulness”.
Well said as always.
I found the outburst at the Joint session address to be illustrative. The President was “calling out” his critics. He claimed that they were lying in their criticisms and then used inaccurate, dishonest statements to substantiate his claims. Rep. Wilson was rightly chastised for his outburst but Pres. Obama went unscathed for the very falsehood that lead to the outburst.
What credibility the President and his administration had with me is long gone. If he (or most of his cabinet secretaries) said it was a nice day I would automatically check.
I wholeheartedly agree with Ben Stein’s letter of thanks to the President for his hurculean efforts in making the GOP look good by comparison.
Our President lies to much, whines to much and is objectionably arrogant and hypocritical.
That he can be heralded as a great orator, shows just how far we have to rise to achieve your reasonable levels of decorum and discourse.
Tuesday afternoon, NPR’s absurd “Talk of the Nation” had a discussion of “The Joe Wilson Incident.” The guests were the usual public radio mix of Historians and race-hustling Newspaper Columnists. At the end of the show, a caller from Mustang, Oklahoma somehow got on and said, “Wilson was just pointing out the obvious… This is just payback for the obscene way they treated George Bush…”
The host and his “esteemed” guests were stunned, there was dead air. I could hear them blink with amazement. They pretended to have no idea what the caller was talking about.
Later, CNN’s “Situation Room” had a story – literally entitled “A Tinge of Racism in Tea Party Protests?” I’m sure someone made them include the question mark. The reporter objected to a few posters of Obama dressed as a witch doctor (“Obamacare,” get it?) and of course, Obama-as-the-Joker was somehow racist, as well.
As Doctor Hanson has written, I had to wonder where all these keen cultural observers had been for the last eight years. I’m not a fan of President Bush – I feel he bailed on the job two years early – but the abuse heaped on him and his family! Bush-as-Hitler, Bush-as-Vampire, Bush-as-monkey, Bush as crackhead… Constant, brutal stuff.
Now, of course, NPR and CNN want to restore a “Tradition of Civility.” They’ve elected a President with a blank resume and he somehow deserves respect. But Barack Obama is like anyone else in life, he needs to earn it.
The left sees decency as weakness Professor. No dice. This time we use their tactics until we take them all down, civilization be damned.
I frequently admonish my students not to use vernacular speech in the classroom. I won’t even allow something so tepid as “that sucks.” Alas, my liberal colleagues think it just fine to encourage rap as legitimate expression. But then liberalism seeks to reduce everything to a rather low common mean.
No contrast could be more vivid than the condition of the national mall after 9/12 versus the aftermath of inauguration day. The tea party-ers left the place as clean as they found it. Obama’s minions left literally tons of trash. How we live says as much as what we profess.
Aye, professor, we’re in a fight for the very soul of civilization. I am encouraged that the American middle class is rising to the occasion. Therein lies the strength of our republic. Marx totally missed the mark when he declared a dictatorship of the proletariat. Rule by the low-born? I guess we’re seeing it blossom now on the left. The right should do better.
“McCain tried to be “Mr. Nice and Civil” and he got this head handed to him.”
Nonsense. John McCain lost the election because he was too politically correct. He could have behaved in a polite manner and still warned the voters concerning the threat of an Obama administration. It would not have been even slightly rude to address his opponent’s relationship with Rev. Jeremiah Wright and other leftist radicals.
Well, Dr. Vic, we’re not in Kansas anymore. It was refreshing to hear Joe Wilson ‘speak truth to power’, borrowing that wonderful phrase so beloved of the Left. And it is delightful to watch ‘mobs’ of orderly, well dressed mature adults expressing their outrage at town hall meetings, etc, stealing a page or two from Jesse Jackson’s and
Al sharpton’s play book. The 60′s generation certainly changed the rules of engagement. And now they are in power. And, miracle of miracles. the somnolent silent majority seems to have learned a thing or two. Being polite, soft spoken and accomodating doesn’t accomplish much. It is the drama and spectacle of boistrous confrontation that attracts attention and media coverage. I am sure that Wilson will survive the tsk tsks of the more genteel.
As for our myriad of rude, boorish celebrity twits, well, they’re just acting out their narcissistic rage. It’s an adolescent thing, and, after all, they are all just very highly paid adolescents. Those of us growing up during the age of ‘Father Knows best’ learned that such behaviour was unacceptable, and brought sanctions. More modern child rearing responds to any activity, including fecal smearing, with ‘good job,good job’
The British Parliement seems to have survived centuries of rowdy, rude, and cacaphonus behaviour, and still functions. I don’t think we have to worry about descending into chaos. When it comes to Congress, I think a bit of chaos would be an improvement.
Victor Davis Hanson is a center leaning liberal.
This country is fighting for its against a racist Marxist president and you go out of your way to write about Joe Wilson that ” He apologized to the President, and should have”.
Obama is the one who owes us an apology. This isn’t the “Bush lied people died” leftist bullsh*t. He was deliberately lying to the American people about his scheme to takeover our healthcare system.
What would the Athenian assembly or Pericles have done with such a lying tyrant? The would have heckled him off the stage and ytou know it.
Stuff it Mr. Hanson. Obama is at war with America.
We need to keep taking to the streets only in even bigger numbers until we free ourselves from Obama and his henchmen.
To say, “Enough is enough” is not enough.
Once a body of people come to live and breathe the politics of bullying
(or, as you describe: “A large segment of the left—from Code Pink and Moveon.org to Acorn and the unions—believe that they really can smear and defame and then retreat to mythical standards of decency when they are now on the receiving end.”),
the only effective recourse is – choose your own words – slap that bully down.
Perhaps saying “enough is enough” would have worked 20 years ago or so.
No longer.
I meant to write “This country is fighting for its “life”.
Hanson is worried about crassness while we have a media that is actively involved in helping Obama destroy our country.
Our electoral process is in Third World status.
We have communist, racists, and left wing terrorists involved in developing our country’s policies.
We have have politicians and half of our Supreme Court who are lawless and disrgard our Constitution.
I wish we had more Joe Wilson’s. Thucydides, Pericles and the like would have joined hands with him.
Writing from a Westminster Democracy, I am a little bemused by the response to this (rather mild) heckling in Congress. I understand that it is considered boorish in the United States – when in Rome, and all that. But is it really degenerate or inappropriate in some absolute sense?
If democracy is an alternative to civil war (and that is how both ancient and modern democracy developed), providing a legitimate forum to resolve contentious issues that would otherwise rip the community apart, then very robust debate would seem warranted. Certainly, Westminster Democracy has been, shall we say, robust throughout its 400 year history.
Regarding “incivility” it may be remembered that butter knives were invented because knives with points on them were being over-used at the table to make debating points in those with whom you disagreed. Things are better now, aren’t they?
It’s certainly true that “two wrongs don’t make a right.” And that, as a consequence, Joe Wilson’s outburst during Obama’s speech (something of a tit-for-tat payback of Democrats’ heckling of Bush) was not highly productive.
Nevertheless, I am growing weary of the excuses made on behalf of the awful behavior of Democrats. It is as if they are the spoiled child — the one whom parents humor in order to “keep the peace.” (At the routine expense, of course, of the brat’s better-behaved sibling.)
Hence, the “Republicans should be above that sort of thing” argument is beginning to wear thin. Gentlemanly behavior has gotten the GOP nowhere in recent years. Perhaps it’s time to take the gloves off.
See: Decorum Be Damned http://emmeffemm.com/id174.html
Joe Wilson is guilty of breaching protocol but I believe it was called for. Why should it be fine for a president to tell blatant lies to the nation and yet boorish for a Joe Wilson to call him on it? As long as we allow elected officials to openly lie to us, we get government based on unanswered lies (and deserve what we get).
Joe stepped over the line when he shouted: “You lie” but he was provoked by the president’s hostile attacks and lies. When lines are used to promote dangerous lies, then those lines should be crossed.
You go, Joe. The Obama Commies now know they can’t give away the store without a spirited fight.
Professor, I look forward to your essays almost like Xmas. But on this topic, I respectfully disagree.
The left and their leader are bullies. As a Man, I know you understand that the only way to handle a bully is to punch them in the nose, then, and only then, can you have a reasonable conversation.
Joe Wilson was a punch in the nose…9-12 in Washington was a punch in the nose…the ACORN videotapes are a punch in the nose…Dick Cheney is a punch in the nose…the town halls are a punch in the nose etc.
Victor, if we had more time, I would side with your reasoning but time is what we have the least of, my friend. The leftist elite means to do irreparable harm to this country. When they have total control which the health care and cap and trade will give them, you will not like what it will take to get back the direction of this county.
In a very few times in your life, a Man, a real Man, has to punch back. Please forgive my contrariness in this instance Professor, but this is one of those times!
Unfortunately, you can’t defeat “Rules for Radicals” with “Roberts Rules of Order”.
Regards
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
Many judge others without looking at themselves. Hurling insults is the sign of desperation. We don’t have to go too far to find them: PJM is full of them.
Let’s see how long it takes for someone to throw the first stone . . .
Yeah,liberals are crude, boorish and racist. Look at Bill Maher, the most crude man, indolent and racist I have seen on TV.
Yes and No
1. Tea Party on 9-12 was the most friendly, smiling gathering of hundreds of thousands I’ve ever seen. There are huge crowds, *mostly* well behaved, at the sport events (well, college basketball madness excluded – those pampered vandals celebrate by braking stuff), but they don’t even come close. People at the DC rally went out of their way to be nice to each other (or maybe not – its just their natural way), to police, to some occasional opponent. The place was unbelievably clean after the event. I did my part and seen people picking up somebody else trash. !! It comes in a huge contrast to a normal trashed condition of any movie theater, for example, that requires a clean up crew after each show. I am always embarrassed to see my synagogue in the same trashed condition after high holidays crowd.
2. Your read on Joe Wilson is in contrast with the most participants of 9-12 Tea Party. One of the most popular category of signs was in support of Joe Wilson. What those signs were saying? Obama – you lied! That the gist of it. If Wilson just booed Obama, or used profanity – he would not be supported. But his exclamation was unscripted, unplanned ( at least it appears to be). And it was the truth. People tired from constant deception. By Obama, Dems and government in general. It was not a pro-republican event, despite that they appear a bit cleaner now. People tired to be taken for suckers. Maybe it breaks decorum, but once in a while you just have to stop the obnoxious liar and tell him the truth – “you lied”.
You devoted many essays over the years to deconstruction of the Left’s claim of Bush’s *lies*. What is very telling now that in ensuing MSM brouhaha over the Wilson’s outburst a question “did Obama indeed lie?” was practically absent.
3. Bunching together crass tennis players and hip-hoppers or rappers with single political outburst is an exaggeration. That said, I of course don’t want to see our congress behave like 3-rd world parliaments with feast-fight entertainment.
4. I agree completely that crassness of society is not healthy. It used to be that manners of high society were emulated, and “behaving like a lady or a gentleman” was a compliment. At one point “manners” books were the bestsellers. Alas, the more cultured decided that its more fun to emulate bad behavior, and all turned upside down. This is not just American observation, btw. I am a first generation American, an immigrant from the former Soviet Union. As different as it was, it went, and continues to go through the same transformation.
5. I quite rarely respond here, so, I’d like to take the opportunity to thank you, Professor for stimulating my brains every week for the last 8 years. Vitamins to the mind. Thank you!
As a military man, and seeing what is happening to my country, I am dismayed and disheartened.
At some point before the fall of Rome, there must have been a Last Legion manning the walls. They knew the city was doomed…that they could not hold the line, and soon the Eternal City would be in flames. Yet they didn’t abandon their posts, they stood and died. Probably for no other reason than they were loathe to desert their fellow legionaires, and the memory of the greatness that once was Rome.
I feel like those legionaires.
The difference, of course, is that along with the barbarians approaching from outside the city, the citizens I have sworn to defend have already begun burning the city behind us…and are throwing rocks and insults against us who remain on the wall.
I pray that God will save us…but since God is perectly just and gives us total freedom, I fear that He will not protect us from the consquences of our own decisions.
At some point in the future, when my tour of duty is completed and I am (God willing) neither dead nor disgraced, I plan to utter the words of Davey Crocket when he left the Congress:
“You all can go to Hell, I’m a-goin’ to Texas.”
… I will not stoop to smear and slur, won’t interrupt a speaker, won’t call anyone a Nazi …
But will call a spade, “a spade” — and a Mussolini-modeled modified Marxist a national socialist.
I agree with much of what you have written here VDH, but not all.
Joe Wilson should not have shouted out (althought I didn’t mind that he did, Obama is a serial non-truth teller …liar I believe is the term). He maybe should have gotten up and left the chamber and the rest of those opposed to this presidents policies as well. Since the media and congress will not let them speak then they have little options left to show that they are not in agreement with the POTUS. Sitting there quietly while the left destroys the country is hardly smart.
VDH …(while I wait for your books to arrive) at what point is this different then a fighting war ? you have my email.
Our president ironically calls for civility after years of fanning and expanding BDS flames by publicly excoriating the former administration. He lowered the discourse bar for years to come. Obama’s faithful tools had the gall to boo and yell slurs at Bush on Inauguration Day. It was not subtle. And of course that crass display was ignored by the MSM, who only aggitate the issue when the left is offended.
If you want respect, show respect. President Obama is reaping what he sows.
13. ~Paules:
I frequently admonish my students not to use vernacular speech in the classroom. I won’t even allow something so tepid as “that sucks.” Alas, my liberal colleagues think it just fine to encourage rap as legitimate expression. But then liberalism seeks to reduce everything to a rather low common mean.
No contrast could be more vivid than the condition of the national mall after 9/12 versus the aftermath of inauguration day. The tea party-ers left the place as clean as they found it. Obama’s minions left literally tons of trash. How we live says as much as what we profess.
Aye, professor, we’re in a fight for the very soul of civilization. I am encouraged that the American middle class is rising to the occasion. Therein lies the strength of our republic. Marx totally missed the mark when he declared a dictatorship of the proletariat. Rule by the low-born? I guess we’re seeing it blossom now on the left. The right should do better.
lol
those “low born” are the elitists ..donch ya know.
regards
Once upon a time, there were consequences for boorish behavior. I’ve known more than one person who was punched out for overstepping the bounds of civility. Now, that would get you arrested. I’m not sure now is an improvement.
Before my time, there were duels. A runaway mouth could have potentially fatal consequences. I wasn’t there, but it seems that more thought went into fewer words, based on what I read.
Console yourselves with the thought that we’re more civilized now.
I trace acceptance of this type of behavior back to the Clay/Liston fight in the early 60′s. While I’m sure this type of behavior existed under the surface in a wide variety of activities besides sports, the accolades given Cassius Clay, later Muhammed Ali, in spite, indeed because of his boorish public behavior, all but guaranteed what we are seeing now.
Not that you’re mistaken Doc but I get a little tired of everyone blaming my generation for all of this nastiness. Did Thucydides have a similar generation to blame? No one was ever rude before those born between 1945 and 1965?
Ah yes, he luxury of “class”…
To paraphrase a Russell Cosby-ism… Liberals are like school in Summertime. Absolutely NO CLASS….
The problem, Professor, is that once one side abandons comity, civility, and reasoned discourse, all attempts to re-introduce them by influence, example, or self-discipline are met with failure.
1. The American people have never been particularly “refined”. One need only look at the Elite versus Rank-and-file reaction to Sarah Palin on the right to understand the break with elite rules of decorum. Deference and “couth” are looked upon as acquiescence by the unwashed masses.
2. Joe Wilson’s moment of frustrated honesty lacked “civility”, however it was absolutely truthful. Elites tend to respect “tact” and “civility” over truth. Truth is to be saved for back of the hand gossip and backstabbing retributions…
There is a point at which sanguine politeness becomes pointless. The Obamessiah passed that point by calling a joint session of Congress to berate and belittle a minority that can do almost nothing to stop him from executing his socialist plans.
At some point the GOP must stand up and shout from the rafters that it WILL absolutely NOT take the abuse and scapegoating any longer.
Obama is a liar. He is a bully and his tactics are supported by a compliant and even worshipful mass media.
The time for polite discourse, comity, and politeness are long past.
In your first book, “A Western Way of War” you uncovered and examined some interesting aspects of Greek phalanx warfare that would very much apply here. The first phalanx to “break”, turn and begin to flee was the one that lost. This seems blatantly obvious until one understands the more “stylized” form of warfare that phalanx battle represented.
However formal the conditions, though I rather doubt the Thebians were going to excuse themselves when they felt the urge to sit it out halfway through the battle. Something tells me the Athenians that they were facing wouldn’t be to obliging for their opponents’ polite gestures.
This is war (as expressed via politics, but no less war). The time for polite gestures has long passed.
Joe Wilson’s outburst was cathartic. It was factually and emotionally correct, if a bit crude. We are, however, Americans and a tad bit less refined than we should be.
As to Serena Williams and Kanye West… Russell Cosby said it best. Like school in Summertime…
Thanks Professor, your opinions are always worth the read.
R/The Mighty Fahvaag
Well said VDH!
But, if it’s any consolation, public morality can turn around quite quickly: the Regency period was succeeded by the Victorian period.
After that great quotation from de Quincey, here’s one from Gibbon:
“History is indeed little more than the register of crimes, follies, and misfortunes of mankind.”
TennesseeVolunteer, I agree with you that many on the left are acting like bullies. To your list of punches in the nose I’d add Sarah Palin. She really gets under their skin.
We are all for Joe Wilson and will support his campaign.
The Republicans need to put on their big girl panties and fight back,.. for a change.
If Obama had the innocence of Swift, we might see things differently.
GO JOE!!!
VDH: “Most (I have not bought a copy in 5 years) won’t read it because of the vitriol of a Maureen Dowd or Frank Rich, and the crass editorials disguised as news accounts on the front page.”
Once in a while I receive an offer to subscribe to the NYT. I despise them so much (not dislike them, not disagree with them) that I go to the trouble of sending back to them an empty envelope so that they will be forced to pay the postage for nothing.
While there has been, without a doubt, a general coarsening of the culture over the last 40-50 years (which has certainly accelerated in the last decade), I don’t think all of your examples necessarily fall into that.
Joe Wilson’s act was an act of patriotism, pure and simple. Obama was sitting there before the nation telling bald faced lie after lie and someone needed to call him out on it. It is far worse that the President can get on national TV and lie and lie and lie and not be held to account for it than for someone to interrupt his stream of lies. It is worth noting that Wilson’s outburst led to the loophole in question being officially closed by Congress so that illegals cannot be covered by whatever health monstrosity they pass. Had he not spoken up, it is doubtful that would have happened. I mean you cannot possibly be suggesting that we ought to smile and nod politely in the face of a tyrant. We need more people to speak up in those situations.
As for Serena, I think it is much to do about nothing. Athletes have always thrown fits. You can’t really expect that people with that much testosterone (Serena included) to hold it together in the midst of intense competition all the time. Sometimes they lose it. It isn’t unusual for teammates in various sports to get into physical fights during practice. But they let it go and they’re back to being good teammates again. Competitors often talk a lot of trash to one another during games and get into heated talk and then they’re buddies afterwards. That’s just the nature of sports–sometimes emotion wins out. You just have to treat it like you treat a little kid having a tantrum. It’s an outburst, but not really symptomatic of civilization falling apart.
Now Kanye is really the sort of poor behavior we need to defend against. The man was drunk and probably on drugs. He practically assaulted a teenage girl. He jumped on the stage where he was not invited, took control of a show against everyone’s will–the appropriate response would have been for security to tackle him and haul him off the stage before he could go on a drunk, stupid diatribe. The equivalent behavior would have been for Joe Wilson to go to the podium and take the mic and teleprompter from Obama. Or for Serena to take the racket from her opponent and run off the court (or maybe bludgeon the ref with her racket). I don’t see either Williams, nor Wilson’s behavior really belonging in the same class of behavior as Kanye.
Kanye’s behavior is more symptomatic of celebrity culture and reality-TV inspired boorishness. Williams is merely one in a long line of athletes flipping out–Wilson one in a long line of patriots standing against tyranny.
I see that VIVO hs crawled back out from under the rock. What’s the matter VIVO, unable to score at Code Pink? There must be some official spontaneous pro-Obama rally that you can join in on. Feeling a bit blue? Why waste your precious time here, go oragnize some community. I don’t think I’d waste a stone on you. Maybe a Twinkie.
Poster “Joseph” above makes a point I’ve been wondering about quite a bit lately; the “Boomers” who are now “in charge” are the progeny of “the Greatest Generation”. I quibble with Brokaw’s over-simple formulation, (after all, our Founding Fathers are truly the Greatest Generation of all time), nevertheless, without gainsaying the legendary achievements or the true grit of the parents of those “Boomers”, what went so terribly and utterly wrong???
#8 My gosh, this is the funniest piece of mockery I’ve read in a long time, positively Swiftian:
“If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination. Once begun upon this downward path, you never know where you are to stop. Many a man has dated his ruin from some murder or other that perhaps he thought little of at the time.”
Then there is this modest proposal for a gentleman’s code: “When the old Gentleman’s Code prevailed in common society, such acts and words would be sharply rebuffed, sometimes to the point of blows.”
In other words if someone speaks rudely to one, one should beat the stuffings out of him…or her. Thank you for the laughs, Francis. And don’t be concerned if some of us disagree with you on this, Professor. As you know probably better than most, even Homer nods.
VDH ….what was the Greeks’ advice for deasling with a narcissist …a particularly dangerous one ?
That you could even link Wilson’s name and behavior with the other two individuals who are crude and low brow is unbelieveable. At least his intentions and observations were honest. Look no further than the British when their house of Parliment is in session to see an example of what Wilson did. True, this is not England but the impulse is the same. What the other two did is not even in the same category.
Apples and oranges. The boorish behaviour frequently exhibited by our entertainment and athletic celebrity elites is the product of their inflated egos stoked by the moronic fawning of the adulatory masses. Narcissism pumped up by driveling admirers is a nasty combination. No, matter. The gods and goddesses of our celebrity culture don’t count for much. Just a new version of Christians and lions.
The Joe Wilson thing is a horse of a different color (oops). But sometimes you’ve got to call a spade a spade (oops).
The rabid Left does not bother with niceties. They play to win. Hardball. It’s not pretty, but that’s the way it is Turning the other cheek is not a winning option. Bush was brutalized for eight years by the Left, the Liberals, and the media. He behaved civily. For him to exhibit anger towards his attackers was a rare event.What did it get him? More abuse and mockery. I think that his failure to respond forcefully to his critics was a serious failure.
Well, now the mob is in power. New rules apply. Maybe, sometime down the road we can afford to be more genteel. This is not that time. The current Democrat leadership appears to be incapable of moderation of both words and deeds. This is no time to be demur.
16. steve: “This country is fighting for its against a racist Marxist president and you go out of your way to write about Joe Wilson that ” He apologized to the President, and should have”.
Obama is the one who owes us an apology. This isn’t the “Bush lied people died” leftist bullsh*t. He was deliberately lying to the American people about his scheme to takeover our healthcare system.”
My God, you nutcases’ hypocrisy knows no bounds.
When lefties angrily protested Bush for his well documented lies (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040329/scheer), you wingnuts turned up your porcine snouts and smugly muttered “Oh, well, we conservatives are dignified and respectful…we would never engage in such uncivilized behavior.”
Of course, now that the shoe is on the other foot, and a black man is in the White House, you wingnuts and your wingnutty GOP reps are howling like the asylum-committed loons you are about “Obama’s lies”, of which you naturally have absolutely no evidence, just some baseles bull**** that Rushbo fed you.
And when questioned about your ridiculous and moronic behavior, your answer is, as always, that somehow your shameful and stupid behavior is warranted, because the ends always justify the means with you delusional nuctases, and clearly the world revolves around you and your petty little grievances. Cry me a river.
You’re an embarrassment to this country.
Wasn’t it Obama shortly before the election yelling at a crowd “Get in their face”, and “If they carry knives to a fight we bring guns”?
Do not ever expect a dime a dozen left-wing media source like ’60 minutes’ ever question Obama on his words or deeds.
I used to be on the left. I once told people I wished Bill Clinton would send a harpoon or tomahawk missle over to Ken Starr’s house. It was crude but fairly standard for the mainstream left. The mainstream right is typically not that way.
There’s a reason Martin Luther King Jr. will always be respected as a great American. He was a uniter. He put us all on the right track. He made us all feel like one. I miss the attitude he brought to America. I miss his vocal cadence, his devotion and his leadership.
African Americans have always led American music. After the revolutionary war, Stephen Foster wrote lyrics that copied slave speech. Gershwin spent his twenties listening to music in Harlem. Jolson did blackface. Bing Crosby and his followers like Sinatra and Martin copied Armstrong and Mills. Elvis and the Beatles copied Chuck Berry, Sam and Dave and the rest.
But Rap took the art form to a place that won’t and shouldn’t mainstream. Rap has made that business offensive. It divides us. Rap is coarse. I wish it would go away. I heard West on youtube following the show. He’s mediocre.
Excellent insight Dr. Hanson.
25. vivo:
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
“Many judge others without looking at themselves. Hurling insults is the sign of desperation. We don’t have to go too far to find them: PJM is full of them.”
“Let’s see how long it takes for someone to throw the first stone . . .”
vivo, have you fallen down somewhere between Jerusalem and Damascus? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember multiple instances of “teabagger”, “stupid”, “moron”, “wackos” and a great deal of insults in your posts. You do seem to have moderated your comments somewhat lately. Could this be the wisdom (or non-wisdom) of the PJM posters influencing you?
Welcome!
Then there’s Dale…
I’m too young to remember a time when politicians didn’t speak with vitriol about their opponents (was there a time)? I wish we had the people in place with the proper decorum, but our society as a whole does not seem to value decorum at the moment.
However, I don’t think we are at the point yet where conservatives can do what you are suggesting. For almost 20 years the other side has been playing by one set of rules, and demonizing conservatives whenever they attempted to play by the same set. The other side has had no incentive to change.
I think it has to get worse before it gets better.
50. Ron
There’s a reason Martin Luther King Jr. will always be respected as a great American. He was a uniter. He put us all on the right track.
…..I don’t think he was a uniter …unless you are only talking about black people. ….like obama they talk and say they are uniters …and you belive them. I DO NOT.
#43 Morton
“…nevertheless, without gainsaying the legendary achievements or the true grit of the parents of those “Boomers”, what went so terribly and utterly wrong???”"
Bork summed it up in Slouching Towards Gomorrah
When faced with the rising counterculture in the 60′s, the Establishment simply…caved.
50. “But Rap took the art form to a place that won’t and shouldn’t mainstream. Rap has made that business offensive. It divides us. Rap is coarse. I wish it would go away.”
Rap isn’t music; it’s verbal trash. It’s worse than that — its destructive. It’s the sound of degrading women, crime, drugs, profanity, barbarianism.
I was sorry to hear Rap on the stage at the 9-12 Tea Party in DC. It was profanity-free and had conservative lyrics, but I wonder who thought the mostly middle-age/elder crowd would want to hear it. Rap is one of the worst aspects of our current gutter culture. I hate to see people who should know better defend it or even appear to enjoy it in their pathetic attempt to be cool.
I am sorry, but as you can see from the comments, I am afraid that train has left the station. I don’t like it, it is not a good thing, but it is where we are at this point in time. It is what happens when leadership refuses to lead for long periods of time. Those on the right and left, who were in leadership positions, reined in decent, humble people, and let the loud and violent have their way and voice. I agree that it is generational, in your boomer comments. Unfortunately, they are the ones training the next generation, whether it be classroom, entertainment,pulpit, newsroom or politics. I do have hope. I see in the generation behind me brave people like the 20 and 25 year olds that exposed Acorn. Some of them voted for Obama because he implied a change from the boomer (Clinton) generation. They now know they were wrong, for the most part. So, I have hope.
Add Beck and Limbaugh to the list of uncouth and I’d probably agree with this article.
Mainstream music and Hollywood have completely gone down the crapper. That’s the end result of constantly appealing to the lowest common denominator. It pays to be an idiot these days.
Perhaps “Willing suspension of disbelief” would be a more proper statement, more acceptable and whatnot, but there wasn’t time.
Exasperation comes to me all the time these days when I see certain people promulgating their position. I yell at the screen, and am tired of having that feeling of impotence. I can understand Joe Wilson’s possibly involuntary explosion …. of two words that I almost missed amongst the words of the speaker.
This is a mountain being made of an anthill compared to the Mt Everest of rudeness that has become customary from the Left.
tomw
#48 Dale – yes I said racist and Marxist in reference to Obama.
He’s a black liberationist and has never disavowed it.
He spent over twenty years going to their Sunday meetings. He was on the cover of their monthly magazine numerous times. He sought them out with his wife because of their beliefs.
They beleive that their god is a god of black people only who demonizes white people to the point of being devils. They preach Marxism.
Its not my opinion that the Obama’s are racist Marxists. Its a fact. The Obama’s have vouched for and support Jeremiah Wright’s replacement, Otis Moss III. He’s surrounded himself with communists and black supremacists his entire life.
I supported G W Bush on very few things. I despise what he did to the GOP. I also despised Limbaugh’s support for him. Not because he was a liar but because he took many of your positions. Comparing him to Obama is sick.
Spare the “black man” crap. That dog doesn’t hunt anymore. Not when we have legalized institutionalized discrimination against white woking and middle class people.
We’re going to defeat you.
Civility is fine but Truth trumps it every time. There is a difference between slander and simply stating the truth. Obama lied. It was about time someone elected official said so openly. His speech was full of lies and it was clear to anyone who had followed the debate closely that he lied. Why should he be able to lie unopposed. Civility should never be a mask to hide behind when the time has come to confront evil and hypocrisy.
When did this vaulted civility ever exist in the United States? Was it the 1800 campaign when Jefferson’s opponents attacked him as an atheist and for having sex with a slave? Was it when Andrew Jackson and Thomas Hart Benton routinely challenged their political opponents to duels? Was it when the opposition derided Lincoln as an orangutan? McKinley and Bryan? FDR’s vicious attacks on Hoover and use of aid money to further his political supporters? I am a little confused of when civility reigned. Democracy, even in a representative republic, is a dirty business.
57. Add Beck and Limbaugh to the list of uncouth and I’d probably agree with this article.
No way. Beck and Limbaugh are fighting back, with the truth. You cannot compare that with the lies we hear from Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Dodd, Biden, Rangel, et al and the disinformation we receive from the mainstream media. You don’t like what you hear so you think they are uncouth.
I guess if we can get through the end of baseball and through football season without unhinged rants we can find cause for rejoicing.
“Get in their face!” – no one remembers that?
And last night I saw mr. Barack “lipstick-on-a-pig” Obama melacholically acknowledging the increasing coarseness of the political speech around.
Gosh! and Kayne (certainly a Obama supporter) reminded me about the “irrelevant bitch” remark, done by another Obama supporter – is it necessary to further connect vulgarity, Hollywood and Democrast Party?
VDH
Sorry, my esteemed friend…this train has long since left the station.
Trash talk politics is in vogue and no reading of the Marquess of Queensbury’s rules will turn a street fight into genteel discourse and reasoned debate.
The rabid, frothing, eye-bulging, spittle-flecked rage is no longer reported on, but rather…spurred on by the entrenched media. To whom should one turn as an example? Keith Olbermann? Maureen Dowd?
The blatant, naked hypocrisy in present day politics is only matched (and surpassed) by the blatant, naked fraud and hypocrisy in our “mass consumption” media outlets…whether in entertainment or news….no difference.
VDH, when a voice is strangled by hypocrisy, fraud and bullying tactics..there are usually only two outcomes one sees. Either the bullied/strangled limp away beaten and bowed…or…they lash back with equal parts fury and ferocity.
Trash talk politics is the SECOND problem. Trash talk mass consumption media is the first. The MCM is the root of the problem, so it makes less sense to treat the symptoms, than to treat the disease.
The fact that it has seeped into sports, entertainment, schoolyards, even into our churches “G-d D-mn America”…should be no surprise at all.
Of course, we’re coarse…our daily diet from the bulge and spittle crowd leads the way.
As usual the leftists attack and lie. They deny their poor behavior and claim it is all the conservatives fault. Really you guys should just make a standard reply and hit send on all topics here. The words and tone are always the same.
Although I must admit that your posts do fit for a change. They demonstrate prefectly the professor’s point.
As a parent, former teacher and coach, not a lawyer or judge, I’ll tell you that precedent is a ________ (fill in the blank). All this civility payback? OF COURSE!!! I have watched both on tv in in person liberals be extremely vicious and FOUL MOUTHED, believing that it’s their right to be so (which it is). However, if anyone dissenting from them acts in like kind, to liberals it is NOT the the dissenter’s right.
Any family, group, organization, society, etc. understands that ground rules, precedents, etc. are to be followed by all in order to have order. Can you imagine any sports event in which there were different rules applied to the different sides? The rage would drive people to be irrational (actually this sometimes happens). Can liberals really not see that they have been the divisive ones, wanting their nasty cake and eating it, also? Pelosi is is LAST breathing human who should sanction Wilson- where’s the sanctions for her disgusting lies and behavior? Don’t be surprised if the next administration will go after her for perjury and Obama for “war crimes” or “abstruction of justice” or anything that they are bent of setting the precedent to go after Bush and Republicans.
Ten minutes ago CNN had a perfect addition to Hanson’s take on Peter Stark (D. Calif):
Congressman says some people aren’t worth peeing on”/ September 15th, 2009 10:28 AM ET
Pete Stark is involved in his own classic YouTube moment.
(CNN) — Rep. Barney Frank, D-Massachusetts, raised eyebrows last month when he told a constituent at a raucous health care town hall event, “Trying to have a conversation with you would be like arguing with a dining room table.”
Now Rep. Pete Stark, D-California, is involved in a similar instant YouTube classic, telling a town-hall participant over the weekend that he wouldn’t “waste the urine” to pee on the man’s leg.
First reported by the San Francisco Chronicle and confirmed by a YouTube clip of the event, the longtime congressman made the remark after the participant launched into a long, but calm, litany about government inefficiency when it comes to nation’s health care system. The man concluded his remarks with warning Stark not to “pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.”
As the audience cheered, a calm Stark responded: “Well, I wouldn’t dignify you by peeing on your leg. It wouldn’t be worth wasting the urine.”
There was a mixture of laughter and boos as Stark motioned for the next question. [...]
The Greatest Generation did fail raising the baby boomers. They did it for the best of reasons though. They had suffered so much with the Great Depression and WW II and they wanted much much better for their children.
Unfortunately they ended up raising spoiled brats who didn’t have to work to help their family and that resulted in only worrying about their own selfish wants. This is a broad brush that doesn’t cover all individuals but I see it covering a generation, indeed the last 3 generations, all too well.
33:
mark
very well put. I felt that what Kanye West would have remember most from Sunday evening is if Taylor Swift had crushed his Family Jewels with a knee to the groin.
THAT would have been a Youtube Moment.
14. David Thomson: “John McCain lost the election because he was too politically correct. He could have behaved in a polite manner and still warned the voters concerning the threat of an Obama administration. It would not have been even slightly rude to address his opponent’s relationship with Rev. Jeremiah Wright and other leftist radicals.”
Indeed, he needed to do that, but it would not have mattered in the end. Generalized Bush fatigue and anti-Pub sentiments were simply too strong (remember too the MSM’s stubborn refusal to do a proper job of vetting BO played a major role as well). If it had not been for the financial crisis, a very shrewd campaign on the Pub side might have had a chance to accomplish a win the election, but alas……..
Dear DALE:
I must admit that I no longer have any tolerance for the crap people like you spout. ‘Bush’s well documented lies’…? You mean we never found WMDs in Iraq? Although every major intelligence service in the world was convinced he had them. That lie? Whenever I hear that libel I want to puke. Or possibly you ascribe to the Truther’s paradigm on 9/11?
Yes you on the Left are a rare breed. Civil discourse with the likes of you is pointless. Apparently in you warped little world, to disagree with his Excellency, Obama, is to be a racist. That refrain is beginning to sound like ‘when they outlaw guns only outlaws will have them’.
Here’s a little heads-up,Dale; if you keep asserting that those of us who do not revere your noble leader are racists, your dreams might comre true.
Doc Hansen: You are a credit to us all but I must (politely) state a case for the opposite.
The libs have gifted us with their messiah. They hold him in reverence and awe. I intend to be the Accuser, the Adversary. Nothing is more gratifying than the desecration of their God King. Nothing infuriates them more than impiety,irreverence, and iconoclasm. I will not stop.
Hey Jim Rockford,
I would just want to point out that while many conservatives do not like the sound of rap (I do not for the record) it is , as done @ the 9/12 gathering, perfectly acceptable. It is just a little different from what many of us consider music however the younger generation accepts it.
My daughters listen to it some and there is rap out there that is not derogatory to women and the such.
It is important to remember that we as a movement (conservative) welcome those who are interested in forwarding conservative values in our culture. A person can listen to rap (some of it at least) and still share conservative values in society. My daughters do it every day.
So lets just say let’s practice “safe rappin” lol….
music like any art is in the eye or in this case ear of the beholder.. and is certainly no reason to exclude anyone from our tent..
:)
Our culture is being torn apart and its going to take time to put it together, if that’s achievable. I don’t know. You may want to look at the Drudge report on the beating a kid took on a school bus. The other kids cheered and all the bus driver did, five minutes after the beating, was ask the kids to sit down. This may not be a good example, but it may be a small illustration of where our culture is.
Thanks once more to Prof. Hanson for his good works.
The cleanliness of conservative demonstration sites (Tolik, #27) is symbolic at the deepest levels. It speaks to core values: discipline, standards, concern for others and civic responsibility writ large.
Plainly stated, Joe Wilson’s outburst was an act of heresy. Work-a-day conservatives, distracted in their pursuit of happiness, have allowed the left to establish a new statist/collectivist orthodoxy. But tea-party, town-hall and conservative media behavior suggests that the old one may yet obtain with the once-silent majority. The question, it seems to me, is whether they can — by the demonstration of numerical power — regain control of our institutions. I think it is possible if the new conservative movement has the will to sustain itself and grow. There are abundant signs that it may.
If the left now holds sway, it is only because we permit it. The social and political structures they have built — too often seen as intimidating and monolithic — are more fragile than most imagine.
The Obama government understands that better than the opposition. It is their sole motivation, rapidly and definitively, to consolidate their power in the instrument of the state.
another point on why VDH has this one up-side-down.
discourse requires a mutual respect and that is lacking in this race and ideologically divided world.
in full disclosure “I do not have respect for the left/socialists/marxists and super narcissist (obama)”
the above mentioned groups have NEVER entered into fair dialog and I don’t expect that they will anytime soon.
60. steve: “He’s a black liberationist and has never disavowed it.
He spent over twenty years going to their Sunday meetings. He was on the cover of their monthly magazine numerous times. He sought them out with his wife because of their beliefs.”
So ****ing what. I can look across the isle at all the good ole boys in the GOP and see a who’s who of retarded right wing christian ideology that is just as shocking and disgusting as anything that’s come out of black churches. Hell, the leaders of evangelical Christian groups are praying for the President’s death, but clearly that is okay with you because you’re a white supremacist and a hypocrite.
“They beleive that their god is a god of black people only who demonizes white people to the point of being devils. They preach Marxism.”
You’e full of ****. Christianity in general has been used by millions worldwide to justify the inquisition and slavery. Evangelical christians justify murder everyday of people they don’t agree with, like abortion doctors and the president. I don’t see any black liberation churchgoers in the paper for murdering people. I do see midwestern evangelicals in the paper for murdering abortion docs.
“Its not my opinion that the Obama’s are racist Marxists. Its a fact. The Obama’s have vouched for and support Jeremiah Wright’s replacement, Otis Moss III. He’s surrounded himself with communists and black supremacists his entire life. “
Yes, it is an opinion, and a stupid one. But by all means, keep throwing around the word Marxist like you have any clue what it means. Go back to Junior High civics.
“I supported G W Bush on very few things. I despise what he did to the GOP. I also despised Limbaugh’s support for him. Not because he was a liar but because he took many of your positions. Comparing him to Obama is sick.”
Bush was a liar. And he was as right wing as they come. You loved him when he was in office, but of course, you throw him under the bus now because you’re a coward trying to pretend he didn’t back a total loser. The GOP will forever be stained by the Bush presidency, and you only have your dumb self to blame by voting for him.
“Spare the “black man” crap. That dog doesn’t hunt anymore. Not when we have legalized institutionalized discrimination against white woking and middle class people.”
Awww….the poor widdle white guy feels like he’s being discriminated against! Let me break out my violin and laugh at the fact that I have to remind a whiny conservative that life isn’t fair. I think being discriminated aginst is exactly what someone like you needs. Pull your head out of your *** and stop spending your life as whiny white victim.
“We’re going to defeat you.”
Yeah you said that in November of 08 too, and look how that turned out. You better start swimming or you’ll sink like a stone, buddy.
True, true, manners are important. Therefore a liar shouldn’t be speaking to Congress, should shut up.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
72. Sherab Zangpo:
priceless comment ..right on
Re: 16& 18: Victor Davis Hanson is a center leaning liberal.
Steve, you are missing the bigger picture here. Professor Hanson is an historian. His knowledge of history has allowed him to see how this kind of decline in civility plays out. True, Obama is no good. However, while the uncivil tactics in use may succeed in countering Obama’s power, such tactics have also led to a complete breakdown in society and civil war. To borrow a line from an old Star Trek episode (in the best tradition of Star Trek, overacted to the point of being humorous): “Do you realize what you have done?!!! You have brought us war! PAIN AND ANGUISH!! DISEASE AND DESTRUCTION!!! HORRIBLE….. LINGERING…… DEATH……!!!
So, Steve. Are you ready for that? I hope so. If not, spend your time gathering survival supplies and stop wasting it making shallow arguments and criticisms of Prof. Hanson.
62. Jim Rockford
Fighting back with truth? Now, that’s funny. Beck accusing the president of hating one half of his background, and keeping busy finding communist imagery in relief carvings on the sides of the very spires of capitalism? I bet he saw some Marxist cloud formations the other day.
Rush stating that he wants the president to fail, despite what it may cost the nation?
They don’t sell truth, they sell sensationalism, because that’s what brings ratings. These two “former” druggies are about lining their own pockets.
DALE:
I feel your pain. You need to let the haterd and bile flow out. It is eating you alive. If you do not learn to control your you profound bitterness, in the end, only you will suffer. You will wither away, flailing helplessly, just like The Thing when it stepped on the electrified grid (the original, 1956, not the pathetic remake). All is not lost. You hve friends, more than you can imagine willing to extend a hand of peace and support. I am here for you. Peace.
Mr DALE. You are a very angry puppy. Are you having regular bowel movements? Sometimes irregularity can make you irritable and touchy. Just a thought.Good luck.
DALE:
you have a profound uderstanding of religon. The depth and breadth of you ecuminical knowledge is breathtaking. I used to make fun of those students who relied upon classic comics as a primary source. Obviously, it works for you. That’s a big attaboy, fella.
Dr. Hansen,
I agree with the intent and spirit of the article but have to disagree on some points. Joe Wilson does not compare one bit to Williams or West. Their outbursts were one sided and unprovoked, Wilson however was forced like many Americans to sit and listen to blatant lies without recourse had he not spoke up. I was watching the speech saying the same thing as Joe Wilson, only much sooner.
With the Democrats and Obama there is no actual debate, just a war fought with media proxies, one sided proclamations, and propaganda. I would have loved to have been able to interject questions into the President’s speech, questions he would have to answer in support of his positions and statements. We have no one to do that for us. The MSM has abandoned impartiality in favor of lobbing softball questions to their “Dear Reader”, and Obama will not appear on Conservative news shows. All we get are lies, deflection, and misinformation from this Administration and the Congressional Democrats. Even some Republicans like McCain and the ones that voted for Cap and Trade have decided that they love power and position more than their country, thus they have decided to “go along to get along”.
While a return to civil discourse would be ideal its time we stopped “bringing a knife to a gun fight”, because unless both sides agree it leaves things lopsided in favor of the side with the gun. We are already at a disadvantage due to the MSM being in the bag for the Socialists.
Rush was quite explicit about why he wanted the president to fail. The nation will be stronger if he fails. I agree.
86. Scott
great post
“Third World Parliament”? How about Britain’s Houses of Parliament? They certainly express themselves “freely.” And yet few, I think, would describe them as uncivilized for doing so. No, there is a world of difference between the talk-show vulgarity we’re daily bombarded with, and Wilson’s impolitic, yet frank, remark. And why are worrying about the supposedly corrosive effects of his comment when every other word out of Obama’s mouth is a blatant lie. Or are these latter somehow made more acceptable by his zen-cool affect and mellifluous voice? B.S.! Let’s man-up a little.
#82 Same old false charges from the same old crowd: “Rush stating that he wants the president to fail…”
Like “Bush lied, people died.” Can’t you librul plodders get some new material? Really, there are some smart people on your side, why don’t you read them and come back with something new instead of wasting your time here.
82. Middleman “They don’t sell truth, they sell sensationalism, because that’s what brings ratings. These two “former” druggies are about lining their own pockets.”
They are popular because they speak the truth, which people can not get from the mainstream media. Left-wingers cannot refute their arguments, so they attack them and call them names. As you have done.
83. ginnie: “I feel your pain. You need to let the haterd and bile flow out. It is eating you alive. If you do not learn to control your you profound bitterness, in the end, only you will suffer. You will wither away, flailing helplessly, just like The Thing when it stepped on the electrified grid (the original, 1956, not the pathetic remake). All is not lost. You hve friends, more than you can imagine willing to extend a hand of peace and support. I am here for you. Peace.”
Are you serious? The remake is a hundred times better than the original.
“The solution, of course, is for the majority to simply say enough is enough, and declare a personal code of decency: “I will not stoop to smear and slur, won’t interrupt a speaker, won’t call anyone a Nazi, won’t do to others what they’ve done to me.” Only that sort of code will end the craziness.”
Or allow the other side’s continued craziness to smother us.
No.
We can no longer remain silent and polite while the other side demonizes us. Joe Wilson is a hero. We need to follow his example. We need to show Obama and his administration that we will no longer be walked all over.
I remember that chapter.
“And speaking plainly, a mark of noble birth, was seen as simple and foolish…”
That isn’t an exact quote, but that was the gist of it…
Sounds familiar.
“I do see midwestern evangelicals in the paper for murdering abortion docs.”
And I see liberals in the news for murdering anti-abortion protestors….
HMMMMMM.
Reading your post, I see that you’ve fallen for the narrative, Dale. It’s pretty sad.
Gordo wrote: “You may want to look at the Drudge report on the beating a kid took on a school bus.
See this is part of the issue. Once there was a time where kids got into a fight, took their lumps, and any ensuing punishments and then went on with their lives. Often they became friends afterward, I can speak personally as in two cases I became good friends with the other boys I got into a fight with. No police were called, no lawsuits were threatened, and the kids were rarely suspended and never expelled from school. The parents handled it in a civil manner and that was the end of it. Boys were boys.
However, back then kids only used their fists, fought in even numbers (usually one on one), and never beat one another mercilessly. The fight ended when one side had won, and that usually wasn’t too hard to determine. Losing sucked, but just the fact that you stood your ground was enough to win you respect. If a serious injury was sustained it was never intentional and it always stopped the fight, often with the injured party being assisted to the nurse (or going and getting the nurse) by their opponent or their friends.
Now kids get weapons, gang up on one another with insurmountable odds, and will beat one another mercilessly. They lack honor and decency, I wouldn’t have called it “honor” back then but I knew how to act, I won most and I lost a few but either way that usually was the end of things. Shooting, stabbing, or getting a gang of friends to jump my opponent never crossed my mind. I did see the slide towards the current trend begin during my high school years when “gangsta” rap became popular.
It is important for “boys to be boys” to take their lumps and their victories with equal grace. Sometimes people just need a good ass whoopin’ to get their heads on straight, to realize that they cannot be bullies, and that some behavior is unacceptable and will notbe tolerated by their peers. Black eyes, bloody noses, scrapes, and bruises often teach valuable lessons to young men and boys. Its said “An armed society is a polite society”, and a society where bad behavior can result in a punch in the nose can be just as polite.
However the Liberals would rather emasculate us.
FINALLY !
I find I can agree with a troll.
The troll is right.
We forgot to define “marxism”.
Let’s see.
“Marxism:
a delirious theory that states that the giant leap forward of humanity out of poverty and starvation (that had reigned unchallenged for tens of thousands of years) has NOT been due to the creation of a free society in which the free enterprise could put at work the giant forces of science and technology and multiply the human work for billions of times
AND INSTEAD it has been due to the “exploitation” of the workers.
And the exploitation of the workers is explained by marxism as: they get paid less than they produce.
This implies that a worker should be paid the same that he produces, which of course would cause the economy AS SUCH to disappear.
Corollary:
any and every attempt to abolish capitalism has created poverty and starvation again.
COROLLARY:
the struggles, fights, wars caused by marxists have worldwide DELAYED the took-off of economies in many countries, caused hundreds of millions of victims (killed, tortured, deported), brought the world into a permanent state of unrest that has highly damaged…poor people everywhere.”
Now we have a good definition of marxism, and the troll is happy.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
PS Aren’t you all happy to have a marxist president ?
…an unhinged Rep. Pete Stark (D-CA) called (President Bush) a liar from the House floor.
Pete is a piece of work.
Great moments in constituent services from Pete Stark
Besides the more blatant elements in this video, he tells a woman who is more concerned about employment than healthcare…
“It isn’t gonna do any good for people to go back to work if they can’t get medical care.”
Huh ?
(for the record (sorry to say) I view the current President making noises about “civility” as merely another aspect of his overall routine)
Time to make up your mind. Do you want to return to the age of Miss Manners or continue with the age of “Me”? Since the 60′s people have been taught that social graces are not needed. No more yes sir, please, thank you, etc. Joe Wilson made one comment out loud. He did not disrupt the meeting and have to be removed from the room like the protesters we’ve seen run speakers out of the hall.
Um, your problem exceeds my healing powers. Have a blessed day.
GINNIE:
Give it up. Another attribute of this clod, DALE, is a fatal absence of taste or class. Hopeless. Original The Thing infinitely more thougthful, and nuanced then the gory remake. Amazing flic. Idoubt that any modern leftwing dwork could appreciate it.
For the serious there is:
“THE VIRTUE OF CIVILITY” Edward Shils
Liberty Fund 1997
ISBN 0-86597-147-1(h) & 0-86597-148-x (p)
What VDH leaves out in tracking recent history of political discourse, is the trend established when last “in power” by the so-called “liberals” to impugn motives and character of proponents of opposing positions or “ideas,” be they “Libertarian,” “Anti-Collectivists,” “Conservatives,” or simply those presenting factual deconstruction of “liberal” concepts, programs or positions.
That trend was established to avoid confronting the basic nature of issues – it continues at an accelerating pace.
Our dear friend DALE is a perfect example of why discourse cannot return to a reasonable level of politeness until the leftists have been completely discredited and shamed out of the public arena. They are incapable of rational debate and have been trained to run round and round in their little hamster exercise wheel of slogans until either they or those they’re screaming at become exhausted. Those like DALE know when they’ve been bested in a logical or factual argument, and instantly revert to their little hamster tube of foul mouthed venting. Whenever such inexcusable behavior gets them removed from a site or venue, they feel they’ve earned a badge of honor for proving they can withstand any and all reason.
The sad fact is, the vast majority of those backing the left don’t know why the do, they simply know that their emotional needs are met by hanging out with a group that has the nod from the elite and is allowed to behave as badly as they like and be excused for it. In return for their votes and vocal support, they get emotional release, and as followers of Ms Dowd may know, most leftists are extremely focused on getting their regular emotional release.
In spite of the high esteem I hold VDH in, I’m afraid that until at least universities will no longer tolerate the shouting down of speakers, wishing for reasonable behavior elsewhere is a waste of time. It is the university, after all, that once set high standards for debate and it is the universities that have reset the standards to their current low level.
Regards
We’re up against a communism-dedicated President, elected through a campaign of calculated misrepresentation and concealment of a record of incompetence and commitment to Marxism, whose team goes to obscene lengths to vilify the opponent they fear most, Sarah Palin, whose game plan is taken strictly from the “Never hit above the belt” rules of Saul Alinsky….and then stages a tantrum over the “racism” of an fully justified shout of “Liar” in a session of Congress?
What is this pitiful dialog lamenting the demise of the Golden Rule?
Every Republican present should have stood up and joined Wilson. That’s what what today’s Democrats would have done if the case were reversed.
Realize this: built into Axelrod’s Master Plan is “The pansy GOP and all other conservatives, clinging to their heritage of civil debate and loyal opposition, will not fight back aggressively. Moreover, they will quarrel among themselves about “not becoming like them”. TAKE FULLEST ADVANTAGE OF IT. Add to this, hide behind “Respect the role of the Presidency”,
We face, not just another once-every-generation political challenge, but the second most serious crisis in our history. We are up against dedicated communists – not Euro-style socialists – doing everything possible in this brief window of opportunity, to change our nation irrevocably.
Protest them! Insult them! Affront them! confront them! Seize their catch phrase: Speak Truth to Power! Force them to fight back! Make their running dog columnists fume! Make them expose their true purpose! Obama doesn’t care about you! Rile the ego-maniac so that he blurts out his true agenda! The sooner the full reality of their foul objectives is revealed to the well-meaning Democrats who were scammed into voting for them, the faster they will be brought down.
The Trojan horse has been brought inside the citadel.
Can the great historian, VDH. produce evidence that good manners combined with stupidity ever led to victory?
This implies that a worker should be paid the same that he produces, which of course would cause the economy AS SUCH to disappear.
Mr. Zangpo (#96), see if you find any intimations of Marxism in Obama’s AFL-CIO speech today.
And the fundamental test of our time is whether we will heed this lesson; whether we will let America become a nation of the very rich and the very poor, of the haves and the have-nots; or whether we will remain true to the promise of this country and build a future where the success of all of us is built on the success of each of us…That’s why the very first bill I signed into law was the Lilly Ledbetter Act to uphold the basic principle of equal pay for equal work.
Alternatively, see if you can find any baldfaced mis-representations of fact…
Because of the Recovery Act…we are putting Americans to work across this country rebuilding our crumbling roads, bridges, and waterways with the largest investment in our infrastructure since Eisenhower created the Interstate Highway System in the 1950s. All in all, many middle class families will see their incomes go up by about $3,000 because of the Recovery Act, helping them get back much of what they may have lost due to this recession.
Obama’s speech to the AFL-CIO convention
this link was posted yesterday on another piece.
I think it is worth reading….previously I thought obama was just a marxist but now I see that he is a retard …well mentally sick anyways.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html
it goes a long way explaining the path of obama. lies are just a part of him. Victor how can you square the circle when dealing with a narcissist ?
Normally I like VDH, however on this one I must disagree. We have been fighting the extreme left for 40 yrs by there rules and we end up with a communist president and the absolute nuttiest EVER now making laws. We must start fighting the way a Thomas Paine, a George Patton would fight back. Patton used Rommels own tactics to great success against the Nazis. We can use SAUL ALINSKYS tactics to great success against the left. Look at the 25 yr old guy and his 20yo girlfriend using ACORN against themselves. The left is like Islam, the left has been at war with America as the enemy within for 50 yrs, starting with the Joe Mccarthy sliming in the late 40s. Its time we need to start treating the COMMUNISTS LIKE WE TREATED THE SOVIETS. OBAMA IS NO DIFFERENT THAN YURI ANDROPOV ,KHRUSHEV, OR BREZNEV. NIETHER IS THE B*TCH PELOSI OR THE WIMP HARRY GREED. BARBARA LEE OF COMMIEFORNICATE, THE B*TCH WONT EVEN SALUTE THE FLAG. Treason is a CRIME. The ONESCUM and his cohorts need to be DESTROYED, by force if necessary.
I’m a bit skeptical that we had something like civility before the 1960′s. We had manners but we have manners today as well… they’re just different manners. The taboos and limitations are in different places.
Today is when, for example, it’s possible for a college student or even a teacher to say that free speech doesn’t apply to offensive speech. And in so many other ways, too, we still have standards and any number of things that simply must not be expressed in public. We still have prudes… we’re just prudes about different things.
And political disagreement has never been civil. Has it? All “my friend from” and “the gentleman from” and those political equivalent to a Southern “Bless his heart” aren’t precisely *civil* though they take pains to pretend to be.
One thing I do agree with very much is about memory. Not that it’s long, because it’s not, but that even a short memory remembers the last eight years.
Dr. Hanson: Thank you once again. I should like to observe that what I have seen in video excerpts, from various “tea party” gatherings and “town hall” meetings, is objection to the prospect of losing one’s own health insurance, demand for cessation of excessive spending on the part of government and fear of increased taxation not just on the wage earner but on small family owned businesses as well. It is true that the exponents of these views have at times been quite vigorous. But why wouldn’t one be angry at the likes of Emanuel, Holder, Sibelius et al running the country with the President acting merely as a spokesman or cheerleader for their ideas as in Mineapolis recently? The President is not a leader. He is mouthing someone else’s ideas.
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2008/08/003-the-worlds-oldest-virtue-38
In a classic column, “Miss Manners” has some profound things to say to us about how the abandonment of such virtues results in more onerous meddling by government — the limit case being a statist totalism.
If you always though Judith Martin was just about which way the spoon should face on the table, read it all.
VDH wrote “The solution, of course, is for the majority to simply say enough is enough, and declare a personal code of decency”.
Lost in the 60′s. What else was lost? Remember those buildings with the cross on top. Funny how when we had believers we were also civil.
The white elite liberal still don’t think they need God.
Our culture war will be lost to the liberals it appears. If they can bring down God, then they can certainly bring down America.
The commentor who placed Limbaugh and Beck in the same sentence as the uncouth Obama. I hate to tell you-LIMBAUGH AND BECK ARE TALK SHOW HOSTS. They have NO force of LAW to enforce there OPINIONS. On the other hand,THE ONESCUM, THE BOLSHE VIK B*TCH PIGLOSI,ACORN,HARRY GREED,C(ASS) SUNSTEIN,HAROLD KOH,CAROL BROWNER,VAN JONES,BARNEY THE FAGGOT FRANK,CHRIS THE DODDERER ALL have the POWER of the force of LAW to use against someone. THESE LEFTISTS ARE TWISTED SICK LOSERS WHO ENJOY THE IDEA THAT THEY HAVE THE POWER TO DESTROY AMERICA. HOW DARE YOU COMPARE A PAIR OF GENUINE AMERICAN HEROES IN LIMBAUGH AND BECK and even put them remotely in the same category as the HATEFUL SPITEFUL SCUM LIKE OBAMA. The agenda of OBAMA and his fellow scum is to steal as much of Americas wealth and freedom as possible. As a freedom loving american, I will do anything to STOP them.
Morton – it’s a great question (and to others sorry for the blockquote but it’s pretty far up the list) – anyway, my take of what went wrong is that the Greatest generation made the mistake of making their children too safe, and giving them too much, so that the boomers (especially those born into the middle class and above) really never learned many of life’s lessons – from the meaning of civility to the need to stand on one’s own two feet. It was a mistake of generosity, easy enough to make when one has endured the sorts of trials the GG’s did. The boomers’ mistake – that of deciding they alone were worthwhile, while the future could look out for itself – is much less forgivable.
The current generation of young adults is going to face some tough decisions – for example, shouldn’t boomers really be required to pay back all the money they owe before they shuffle off the stage? How does one do that morally, allowing for the fact that many in the same age cohort actually made responsible decisions while the others played grasshoppers to the ants? Is the only alternative for the millenials to assume the debt and mortgage their own future? I don’t know….
What about Obama’s not so subtle middle finger? Civility, HA!
No it won’t, it will just embolden the crazies. You need to out demagogue the demagogues, and not well after the fact, but while they’re doing it. It’s the only way to stop them.
“The truth is that a new generation of boors has come of age without sober wise people to teach them how to act.”
The trouble is, not too long ago, those people were parents. But parents have already joined the ranks of the boorish.
This is not restricted to those in power – or the Congress. Boorishness has become a way of life – most recently, the egregious outburst by Kayne West (who was rightly branded “a jackass” by the President.
I forgot about rap “music” (it’s so far out of my sphere). That’s just the public face of the “uncouthing of America”.
78. Dale
Take ginnie’s offer.
“The proper censors are in the graveyards, a better mannered generation used to hardship and war, whose legacy of standards we have squandered.”
Have to disagree a bit. Their “legacy of standards” apparently didn’t apply to their kiddies, hence we have the new liberals of today.
I keep hearing them referred to as the Greatest Generation, and in many ways they are, tho the founding father’s generation, and civil war veterans might disagree.
The Greatest Generation sowed the seeds that we are now reaping. They fought and destroyed tyranny in Europe and Japan, only to subsidize, coddle, and ignore it brewing in their own homes and universities.
If the Left will come clean with its war on/annexation of Christianity, confess it and promise to eradicate it, and end all of the phony deployments of it (Jesse Jackson, Pfleger, al Sharpton, Jimmunie’s Wright and Carter) I think we’ve got a chance.
If “Thucydides has a wonderful chapter in his third book on the stasis at Corcyra on all this. In short, he says when rules, decorum, respect, and commonly accepted behaviors are jettisoned for short-term advantage, then the thin veneer of civilization, in other words the law, is scratched away and we peer at our natural Rousseauian selves below. And quite a scary sight that is, natural man without civilization.” And all so qickly…
…then it is because Grecian democratic civilization had no Judeo/Christian foundation to weather the barbarians at its gates.
Our priesthood in this country is the lawyers, and we voted in their political agents in a majority in two consecutive elections, falsely premised on the lie that we had a president who was Hitler, and that to upstage the majority would lead to a restoration of the people’s will in Politicas.
Fat Fripping Chance. Our government is a secular theocracy based on the tenants of a crackpot religion whose gospel makes it all up a$$ they go along. It always dependds on whose got the best lawyers, has the dough to pay for it, and whether or not you are a true believer in Evangelical Atheism™.
Egyptian kingdoms had a better relationship between its priesthood and its hereditary rulers than either we do now, or Greece did then. That relationship is represented in the two pillars that form the arch, with the arch being the means by which (it was believed) the supreme being liasoned with the anointed king.
Whether or not Israel built its kindom on this from being the Hyksos in Egypt or not, I do not know, but it is the foundation of the Kingdom, and accounts for Christ’s hereditary claims to the lost Kingdom of David, that found itself subjected to every empire you can name between the time of Moses and the establishment of the the church by St. Peter.
And the Barbarians (The Left) do not like it, or, if the do, they envy it, and are jealous of it, and so they covet it.
But the structure of these government’s lasted longer than the Greek experiment. Two millenia (or more in the case of Egypt) each.
We have been a society of Law (republic) and we are transitioning briefly to a democracy, to descend to an (oligarchic: a corrpt elite) tyranny.
“The more corupt the state,
the more it legislates”
-Tacitus
http://tinyurl.com/awyudu
We need a motitorium on National legislation.
Obama seeks a majority vote in congress for more government annexation of private industry; private property.
What happens when that fails?
Obama seeks to rig elections at the polls to sustain majorities in rubber stamp legislatures with
APORNACORN”S help.What will happen when that fails?
Dr. Hanson:
While I appreciate the reasons behind your call to civility, must I remind you of your response to your water-stealing neighbor who rode rough-shod over the young college graduate’s attempt to “reason together as adults to resolve the issue” (paraphrasing)? If I recall the story correctly, it was only after hearing the bully tell someone that your house would be his one day that you finally took firm action and threatened him — after which, you both got along pretty well.
If harsh words and threats of action are needed to make the bullies back down and restore civil behavior to the political world, it’s a small price to pay. Just as you didn’t want your neighbor to take your house, I don’t wish to have my neighbors in the uncouth wing of the Democratic Party take my House.
P.S I remember a nice whord of Code Pink™ agitators being allowed into committee chambers not only to heckle, but to aggravatedly assault then Sec. of State Conileeza Rice at a committee meeting she was “summoned” to by the democrat majority after 2006 elections.
democrat majority has employed anarchy as a tactic in their own modus operandi as “the” majority in congress since the day they began w/ their new majority.
Abominable
Read #78.
He’s one twisted bufoon who hates Christianity but has no idea of what it teaches.
Go find your boyfriend and have a good night.
Just leave us alone.
I believe they are tares. As in the parable.
Gaining?
We’ve some complaint at our constraint
Re: Jordan, Churchill, Moyers;
For life urbane let carnage wane
And pay platoons of lawyers.
Are shoddy guys allowed such guise
To gnaw when fair’s precluded;
The noble checked by ways correct,
Ill mannered, and deluded?
For days of old, when folks were bold,
Our present trouble beckons.
Insulting lads were slapped—the cads,
And waited on by Seconds.
I’m sorry, but yelling “you lie!” at someone as he’s telling a bald-faced lie, as Obama was doing, is something I have absolutely zero problem with. None.
Maybe it’s because I’m young (43). Interestingly, though, I value civility a great deal in my personal life.
In politics, though, what you are suggesting is akin to Monty Python’s Judean People’s Front crack suicide squad.
If the Republicans are “civil”, the Democrats will attack. If the Republicans attack, the Democrats will attack. This is how they have gained control of the White House and both Houses of Congress.
The Republicans will lose in the short term, but gain in the long term? How? By committing seppuku to save their “honor”? While the Fairness Doctrine and Card Check become law?
I, for one, do not vote for a representative so that he or she can allow the nation to be permanently and badly damaged, just so that he or she can claim to be the better person. I’d work hard to get someone like that thrown out of office. Bars don’t pay bouncers to be wimps, and voters don’t select representatives for that purpose, either.
Joe Wilson, doing his job, has nothing whatsoever to do with Kanye West, Van Jones, Serena Williams, Michael Moore or Garrison Keillor.
Apparently the makers of “Goof Off”, are having record sales.
It seems that all those “Question Authority” bumper stickers are being removed from Volvos all over the country. . .
Ha!
A code of decency is valid, if and only if it refers to name-calling, and ad hominem.
But calling, for example, Obama a liar is hardly indecent; it’s the truth.
Obama is a marxist-socialist, if not in fact then in action. By this I mean that I consider Obama himself to be ideologically ‘vacant’. His focus is only on his own pathological narissistic need to control others.
But, he’s the Front-Line Salesman for a hardcore set of radical socialists whose agenda is to destroy the republican and capitalist infrastructure of the US and insert an authoritarian, statist, socialism.
This agenda is presented to us in endless speeches ( doesnt he ever do any work?) filled with intellectual dishonesty (aka lies), brimming with constant emotional manipulation of our hopes and fears – and ready to accuse all of us of bias if we dare to question or disagree.
We have to constantly confront the lies, the manipulation, the ready accusations of bias. We have to do it using FACTS, using REASON, and, using EMOTION. We cannot sit back and watch this gang destroy America.
To say that we must ‘use decorum’ is, I feel, an error. I agree – no smears, no name-calling, but there has to be emotion. Why? Because the left, the socialists, are immune to reason. Totally immune.
They don’t care that the facts, for example, show that the stimulus is a pork barrel rather than an economic base.
They don’t care that their assertions that their public health care ‘won’t cost a dime’, won’t treat illegals, and 46 million uninsured.. and ‘will leave you with your private insurance..have all been shows by FACTS to be untrue.
Obama doesn’t care that his constant use of the Crisis Emotional Tactic to make us do what he wants, is a malicious and authoritarian strategy. He doesn’t care that he has turned Congress into a rubber stamp, by his insisting that they pass bills without reading or debating them.
He doesn’t care that he threatens us with economic crisis..to get his pork bill passed; that he threatens us with a health crisis – to get his health bill passed. All of these manipulative tactics are ..false and contemptuous of Americans.
His tales about America becoming the land of the rich or poor? But it’s Obama who is destroying the middle class! It’s his trillions in deficit that is destroying the future of middle class America! His takeover of private banks and companies that is inserting a socialist infrastructure! His insistence on a public, or socialist healh care system!
The people? Obama sneers at them; what he demands of Americans is that they adore him, that they do what HE tells them to do. No debate, no questions, no dissent. Not allowed. Congress must pass his bills without reading them. Can you imagine the Founding Fathers telling Congress to do that?
And if you disagree with or criticize Obama, then..You are, heh, a racist if you do any of that. That’s quite the tactic to use…
As always, it is a singular pleasure to read your essay, Professor. The solution you propose, however, puts me in doubt: can you name a single historical precedent where revoutionaries have become ashamed of their own tactics in the face of their opponents’ noble behavior? I can think of none.
Can you imagine Hitler Jugend succumming to nice manners of the German elites, or Russian communists becoming ashamed of a sudden, merely because the opposing side did not match their brutality? All revolutionaries had to be stopped, if ever, by force. What we are dealing with now, just as in 1930s, is a bunch of revolutionaries that would like to alter the very essence of this country, from its culture to its political and economic instituions. I very much doubt they will ever be ashamed of their tactics: they justify the means in their opinion.
>>In the short-term it is a losing political formula for conservatives, but in the long term it is the only way to restore sanity and a winning strategy.
It is fascinating to me that conservatives, who understand sacrificing short term gains for long term wins, are always the only ones who even consider or act on such maneuvers.
I think raising two points if perfectly fair at this point.
The first is to consider whether this is really a winning strategy. Over the last N decades, someone has made ground by pressing every advantage, fair or unfair, and someone has lost ground.
The second is to consider whether rampart walls can really be rebuilt while the barbarians are scaling them.
You know the decline of civilization has occurred when, in watching porn, rather than seeing a man ejaculating on a woman’s stomach or butt, he now does it on her face.
VDH:
Point taken; history does not reward a society that acts like we do with anything but destruction. We have violated the “natural law” being Gods law that our fathers knew we had to adhere to in order to remain a lawful, civil and productive society. We do need to speak truth to the lie; we can hate evil and try to save some from it. The right way for all of this was paved a long time ago by the Living God. It is a gift from God that we must choose to receive rather than rely on our own nature or government to produce good which history has proved is quite beyond our human capability.
Part of this current behavior I blame on George W. Bush, because he did not stand up and defend the truth, he thought it was beneath him to argue with idiots and right to turn the other cheek but it was wrong of him not to use everything in his power to defend the truth. Lies of course are indefensible but there was plenty he could have defended and maintained the integrity of the public discourse.
When this current administration and congress lies, as they have, they should be challenged to the full extent of the law to prove they are right or confess their evil deeds take their medicine and we should move on.
Bill Clinton disgraced his office, he told a lie, got caught, faced a judge, was censured, disbarred, impeached and we all for the most part moved on. There was a lesson there for other politicians and for the public as well, not that we are all good students but the lesson was one of consequence.
In a civil and moral society there is no room for obfuscating the truth.
It has been a long road down to the bottom and we’re almost there. No one will appreciate what is to come but you can’t say we didn’t earn it.
Victor, I told you most would turn on you. I believe some here wish for another civil war. They aren’t trying to convince their opponents of the error of their ways, instead they are trying to verbally liquidate them. When so many demonize their opponents, is physical violence far behind? If, as some of you all believe, Obama is a racist commie nazi that is destroying the country, then is there any action no matter how violent excluded?
In my view, the left uses insults specifically as an attack on civil debate. They know civil debate works as a method for finding the truth. Since the truth will not support their efforts, they seek to attack civil debate.
To counter this, we must not return insult for insult, because that is what the left wants, since that achieves their goal of destroying civil debate. We must ignore their insults, and go around them to build public debate, by having discussions with our friends, our neighbors, via Facebook/Twitter, etc. It’s the leaders on the left who are attacking civil debate. The majority of Americans of all parties love this country and want to find the truth.
I’ve blogged about this in additional detail here: http://tinyurl.com/nru9ac, and here: http://tinyurl.com/mp488c
Well, its the Wilson’s and the Van Jones’s types that get the headlines. They, and their kind fail to understand that the will of the people, and the good of the people far outweigh selfish belief, hence they choose the concept of “the world evolves around me” attitude. Their culture cannot accept self discipline because of the failure to understand proper debate, let alone the proper time and place for that debate. Hence, they are unable to control the “teenage primal impulse” because that is how their cultural intellect deals with any opposition to what they believe, whether they are right, or wrong.
Also, I can’t help but to believe that the mythical past of civil American politics is a myth, and to be clear, I mean that in the vernacular sense of the word.
I wouldn’t consider, for example, a pistol duel to be the most civil way to resolve political differences…
VDH:
This is typical for a Californian to put the fruits and nuts into the same basket without looking at the merits of each.
The tennis player did threaten great bodily harm.
The stage walk on was a drunken jerk.
Van Jones overplayed the poor-me card. The senator barked out loud against house rules but not free speech rules against that JSC which was a threatening sales pitch.
This is not new age stuff or the astrological placement of Mars against modern behavior. Rather it is old age stuff where swords would have been drawn and heads broken against immediate threats. We are conflicted that we have to take abuse, albeit verbal, and pretend to chill when some lout is in our faces with their mismanaged anger therapy. There is something to be said for the old ways. The veneer of civilization is only so thin and hardly enforced with political correctness.
The solution to bad speech is more speech–not, in this case louder speech or more intense speech or more impassioned speech or “you hit me first” speech. Rather, what is needed is speech that is so refined, so polite, so stylized, so direct, and so erudite that the character and tactics of the boors suffer by comparison. We must be willing to say, “I would rather lose the day than abandon my character and become like you.”
And this same exacting standard must be applied in equal measure to those with whom we agree. Remove first the speck from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the log from your brother’s eye.
I submit that conservatives fulfill their duty to civility simply by keeping their invective towards the opposition a few points to the sunny side of the precedent the Left set the last go-around.
In other words: de-escalate, yes. Disarm, no. Where the Dems called Bush a [bleeping] liar, we should be satisfied with calling Obama a simple liar, hold the adjective. As the one gazelle said to the other, you don’t have to outrun the lion; you just have to outrun the other gazelle.
By all means, let’s be better than than the uncouth, dishonorable, mendacious party of rum and rebellion (we’ve got Romanism on our side this time), but not “look too good, or talk too wise.”
For the record, I can’t think of another time I’ve disagreed with Dr. Hansen, and I don’t expect to, very often.
VDH: a voice crying in the wilderness. So this is what it feels like to live in a society that has gone over the cliff, but has not yet experienced the sudden stop at the bottom.
Dr. Hanson’s article reminds me of the scene in the movie “Robocop 2″ when the protagonist and his arch enemy are trading weapons fire in a crowded room while the OmniCorp CEO vainly shouts “Behave yourselves!”
Too late.
The other image that the article brings to mind is a properly-mannered Soviet subject in late 1942, lamenting how the Red Army is contributing to the general destruction in Stalingrad and positing how it might behave better so as to contribute to the city’s eventual rebuilding (“In the short-term it is a losing political formula for the 62nd Army, but in the long-term it’s helpful toward rebuilding the infrastructure”).
That’s a well-meaning sentiment, but hardly practical while there are a quarter-million Germans running around the city. You need to defeat the enemy first, then worry about cleaning up the mess.
Or as Maggie Thatcher said,
“In war there is much to be said for magnanimity in victory. But not before victory.”
I wish Taylor Swift’s father, uncle, or brother had been standing in the wings when West interrupted her and had come out and slapped West silly. While violence is rarely the answer, kicking a man’s butt who acts like West is appropriate. He needs a beat down. So does Perez Hilton.
126. Barry D:
excellent post
@129 ETAB
excellent, I’ve tried to say that many times, many ways, but yours is more economical.
All I would add is that 0bama uses the scare tactics/emergency urgency to coerce congress into quick passage of bills that congress has not read, debated, or even been written (in congress).
Appollo Institute wrote “Stimulus” Porker bill.
See no Bill, Read No Bill, Write No Bill. Stamp, Stamp, Stamp. Good to go.
Congress has declared itself illiterate.
We need a moratorium on any further national “legislation”. And the supreme court needs to revoke all rubber stamped “legislation” written elsewhere as unrepresentative, before this gets anymore out of hand.
“If, as some of you all believe, Obama is a racist commie nazi that is destroying the country, then is there any action no matter how violent excluded?”
I’m afraid that this rhetorical question doesn’t offer to enlighten.
Racists, “commies”, and nazis are not imaginary monsters. They have been real, and they may well be real again.
Is Obama one of them? That’s the real question.
Because if, in fact, he is, then no, no action, no matter how violent, would be excluded. This is obvious. So, the question is, “Is he these things?”, not “shouldn’t the veneer of civility take precedence over real threats?”
This invites a rational examination of the facts, not hand-waving about civility.
Shouting “lies” at lies is about as mild a conflict as could be imagined…
One addendum, and I’ll shut up…
I never had any quarrel with the Left when they expressed great anger at President George W Bush. My disagreement was about whether he, in fact, WAS a new Hitler.
I didn’t believe that he was. I don’t believe that a rational examination of the facts supports that he was.
What I wanted was an examination of these facts, not the silencing of anger that would have been quite justified had they been true.
You silly inside the beltway bedwetters are so far behind the curve I fear you are never going to catch up: We are not at a ballet with these people, we are in a streetfight for our very survival and you want to sit with them and play tiddlywinks. If it wasn’t for the April Tea Parties, the Rally on D.C., Glenn Beck, Worldnetdaily.com and others you guys would have already caused us to lose this country by being nice and civilized as they kicked you in the head. If you read the history of the U.S. or even look at other countries and how they debate, our so-called debate in Congress is positively wimply. Have you watched the British parliament go off on Gordon Brown every stinking second he talks? How about some of the Asian parliaments, where they duke it out with fists? How about Hamilton and Burr? And how could you put Joe Wilson in a headline with West and Van Jones, two creepy white-haters? Get in the game before you are left in the cold!
“Victor, I told you most would turn on you. I believe some here wish for another civil war.”
What does it mean when disagreement becomes “turning on you?”
Isn’t this actually an excellent example of a lack of civility? Disagreement, even entirely civil and calmly expressed, becomes “turning on you” and evidence that people wish for the violence and death associated with a civil war?
ETAB/129; –well said!
Standard Reply:
You guys are: Confused[] Uninformed[] Willfully Misinformed[*] Hopeless[] Insane[]
Joe Wilson is a: Bigmouth Idiot[*] Pandering Shmuck[*] Standard Issue GOP Tool[*]
Obama is: Trying to fix 8 years of incompetence and corruption[*] A decent guy[*]
Bush was: A liar[*] A dishonest, corrupt fool[*] Reelected by clueless morons[*]
If you disagree, you are: Dumb[] Dumber[] The Dumbest[] A Tea Bagger[*]
#58
Beck and Limbaugh are not elected representatives and are therefore not germane to the authors topic. Nice try.
I blame this mostly on the media. Once they started rewarding bad behavior this escalated to where it is today.
Jay Leno bumped a planned guest last night, and replaced them with Kanye West, whereas if you do something outrageous enough you get preferential treatment from the media.
People probably haven’t given this idiot (Kanye West) much thought until he made a complete fool out of himself, and interrupted someones proudest moment.
Joseph – (135)
“When so many demonize their opponents, is physical violence far behind?”
A very good point to discuss, back in 2005 or so.
Regards
“It is the madness of folly, to expect mercy from those who have refused to do justice; and even mercy, where conquest is the object, is only a trick of war; the cunning of the fox is as murderous as the violence of the wolf.”
Thomas Paine
Dr. Vic:
We have seen the past. We have seen the present. We can anticipate the future.
Lock and load, brother.
Complain if you must but remember in one, two word cry, Joe Wilson did more to change the horrible Obamacare than all the “Good” guys in both houses put together. Between Sara Palin and Joe Wilson we have patriots who represents us! Obama has given over 140 speeches since his inauguration and we the people have had how many? The entire march on DC got less time than one of Obama’s repetitive blathers. Who speaks for us?
Ill go with Rep. Wilson served his country by calling, LOUDLY, the country’s attention to the inclusion of illegal aliens in the obamacare abomination. This is not tit for tat, it is stating we are being snookered, wake up USA.
You can’t have it both ways. Accuse the Obama administration of overt racism and then use an athlete and a singer to prove your point? Bringing those two incidents into the same article isn’t a logical argument . There are plenty of non-African American athlete’s and entertainers who exhibit bad behavior yet they are not judged by their ancestry. We don’t project blame for their outbursts on current political leadership. We didn’t bring John McEnroe into the discussion of Jimmy Carter did we?
That being said Obama’s seems to be under the same cloud that plagued George Bush. I believe both are good men. However the polarized populace whipped into an hysterical frenzy by the unaccountable talk show lunatics seem to be overwhelming the message they put forth.
“Does anyone believe that the amateur hit journalists who caught Acorn red-handed used tactics any different from Mike Wallace and the 60 Minutes team?”
If I understand that question correctly, you have asserted, albeit implicitly, a grossly inappropriate equality. And in addition, VDH, this article appears to be more a reflection of your soft academic background and sensibilities that appreciation of the “rules” for winning in the arena of bare-knuckled politics.
If there were today an absolute binary choice, Dr. Hanson, between the demise of this republic and the temporary abandonment of civility in order to combat the destructive forces, which side would you be supporting with your philosophy? Unfortunately your article leaves some uncertainty on the matter. And sorry, there is no middle ground or “third way” out. There never is in a war.
VDH:
“… hysterical rant from the unhinged.”
Wilson showed an outburst of emotion. It was a weak moment, but it appears to have been caused by legitimate emotion.
Emotions are sometimes hard to contain when one feels that there is a lack of fair dialogue. Obama’s monologues do nothing to quell these emotions, as he often intentionally or unintentionally incites the opposition. It is no accident that Obama creates his strawmen with the qualification that they are liars.
A corollary to rants from the unhinged is calmly delivered propaganda. History shows that one type of misbehavior is worse than the other. Does Obama’s persistently divisive rhetoric make him a propagandist?
While the Wilson incident is interesting, what may be more important about Obama’s speech to congress was his relative lack of emotion. While Wilson obviously wore his emotions on his sleeve, Obama did not. Obama did not find way to make this speech transcend his other, more routine speeches. His inability to appropriately tailor his delivery to the occasion suggests that he may not be in touch with the content, and that he considers all of his speeches to be performances, rather than tools of persuasion. Shouldn’t he be capable of showing more emotion if he were intellectually invested in the ideas he was expressing? Despite the poor behavior, maybe Wilson deserves some credit for honest emotion, in contrast to Obama’s contrived deliveries. So maybe Thucydides is not the right analogue?
51. Mr Lucky:
“Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember multiple instances of “teabagger”, “stupid”, “moron”, “wackos” and a great deal of insults in your posts. You do seem to have moderated your comments somewhat lately.”
Correcting you: u r wrong. Your fuzzy memory, although correct for the recent one.
BTW, wacko is not an insult, it’s a reality.
Dr. Hanson writes, “The solution, of course, is for the majority to simply say enough is enough, and declare a personal code of decency: “I will not stoop to smear and slur, won’t interrupt a speaker, won’t call anyone a Nazi, won’t do to others what they’ve done to me.” Only that sort of code will end the craziness.”
Sorry to disagree, but I don’t think your solution will work. As I see it, only when conditions become bad enough to where a large majority of the citizens are outraged by such behavior on the part of either side will it change. Only when most citizens are outraged enough to where such actions are no longer rewarded and instead produce a sure path to defeat will it stop. Only when most citizens are so disgusted with such behavior and are willing to publicly denounce such behavior will it stop. Simply deciding that you, as an individual, will no longer practice such behavior will not stop it. In short, there will have to be the penalties of public scorn and/or defeat of persons practicing such behavior in elections before it will stop.
John Adams commented (famously) that “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” He was right!
78. Dale:
Our pajammers ‘friends’ are correct: there will be long waits in a new health care system for those seeking help for paranoia and excessive use of drugs. Maybe there is no cure for them. Must be a living hell . . .
That is a very interesting article (linked above #107) on pathological narcissism.
Albeit long.
A Rep. Stark or Rep. Wilson, whether left or right, were Sixties people
Pete Stark, while an execrable human being, is not, by my definition, a Sixties person. He was born in 1931, graduated from MIT in 1953, and took his MBA from Berkeley (now Haas) in 1960.
Excellent piece, though, VDH!
I have said this before and I will continue to say it “We get the leaders we deserve.” We as a people are rude, uncouth, uncivil, and insulting as well as course and degraded. Look at the shows we watch, the people we admire, the music we listen and the movies we watch.
You want an education in the degradation we are experiencing, spend the evening at Wal Mart. Listen to the way people talk to each other, to the workers there and worse yet on their cell phones (constantly and loudly). Or go to your local school, high school or elementary doesn’t matter and watch how students treat each other, how teachers treat each other, how the administration interacts with both groups ( or not) and how the students treat their teachers.
We have allowed this to happen because we didn’t want to have say “Yes , sir or Yes, ma’am” to anyone. We wanted things to be more casual and less structured. We knew better than our folks ( my mother told me 35 years ago this is how things would turn out, I’m glad she didn’t live to see it frankly- it would have broken her heart). We are Rome and if we don’t wake up the Goths and Visigoths will break down the gates and all will really be lost.
Victor, my take is this: As long as life can only be definable, because of the insecurity of those who insist this be the case, everyone will wind up being cheated.
So, a new counter-culture movement, to counter the counter culture movement of the 1960s (when the upper middle class went berserk) has to take place. To my relief, this is taking place. When people like Wendy Shalit, in concert with those who have been around the block like Phyllis Chesler, become
the dominant voices of the West; then we will
not repeat the pathos of the past as seen by Thucydides, because we would have seen a renewal. How? By heeding, “Lech Lecha”. The
past is not the final word.
So, as long as there is room for the indefinable, to counter the insecurity of others, there is still hope that the worst of the past and present will be weakened.
Agreed, Stark is not a Sixties person. He’s a garden variety pompous ass, and they are timeless, known to Juvenal, Swift, the Marx Brothers.
Won’t be reading your column and the comments without rules anymore — over to Roger…
Mickey, have hope. I, too, was afraid Rome was starting to smolder and that a conflagration would soon break out. I am military as well, but wonder how long I would be willing to stand on the wall when the greatness has been destroyed. The Tea Parties, Talk Radio, New Media, etc. give me hope. On political direction as well as current discourse I now believe we are simply seeing ebb and flow. The question is always whether it will go too far in one direction- will the discourse get so heated and scathing as to turn truly violent, will the political direction take us too far that our options to restore the balance are limited to violence? I hope not, and so far do not think so. In terms of Rome, I do not think we have set the conditions for Julius to take the reins. We’ll see.
seanmahair – (170)
“We get the leaders we deserve.”
You’re exactly right. For all the talk of what the boomer generation is guilty of, as a boomer myself, I think the greatest failing was to ignore education in general and university education in particular. Not ignore as in, didn’t see any value in, but ignore as in didn’t care how twisted it became as long as the degree conferred greater earning power.
A generation that proclaimed itself superior to the point of having the right to overthrow the university itself should have known that they since they broke it, they owned it. Like so much else, though, they simply broke it, shrugged their shoulders, and walked away leaving it to those who wanted access to the students for their own ends. How can a society not end up with our current state of affairs when universities little more than test markets for propaganda? How can a society not end up like ours has when the most respected institutions of learning tolerate, teach, and embrace the abuse of both language and rational thought?
As long as universities are nothing but leftist boot camps that pass out counterfeit credentials the way terrorists pass out counterfeit passports, there’s not much hope of turning the tone of society around. People used to aspire to be polished like their professors were, now they achieve that degree of polish by the time they’ve learned their first dozen obscenities.
Regards
It’s more than boorish behavior that has our train speeding down the tracks, running OUT of track..
When a legal system, or a society looks the other way, or is simply too busy to care about elected officials like a Charlie Rangel obfuscating the facts , not reporting income, not paying his taxes, as he WRITES tax laws, and votes to pass laws to tax “us”, the people… we run the risk of our civilization breaking down.
Laws must be respected.
By EVERYONE.
That is what cements a society.
I respect “your” property and personal rights, “you” respect mine, all backed up by common law.
Unless laws are respected, and enforced when broken, we will surely have chaos as everyone figures, if it’s good enough for him to ignore the laws, I too, will ignore laws I don’t care for.
That is why many Americans oppose “illegal” immigration.
It’s not being a xenophobe or worse, it’s a simple matter of respect for the “law”.
It is “illegal” to enter the United States under less than “lawful” means..
It is AGAINST the laws we all must respect.
That is the thread that binds society together.
Respect for the laws of the land..
Without that, what do we have?
This is the dark side of a society that has been taught over the past 40 years that feelings are more important that reason.
The humorist Florence King summed the phenomonon up well by calling it “The Republic of Nice” (pc, “It’s for the Children,” the self-esteem movement, etc) vs. “The Republic of Mean.” A country awash with foul language, road rage, and rudeness.
And King wrote that in the early ’90′s – before the advent of the Internet!
King also knew from history what excessive emphasis on emotions can do. During the final days of the ancien regime in France, Rousseau’s “natural man” was all the rage. Fashionable Parisians blubbered over sentimental paintings of dead canaries and gave in to emotion. A few years later, they were lining up and cheering as they watched daily executions.
“Feelinnnngs, nothing more than feelinnngs.”
But once you let the cat out of the bag, it’s not only the nice warm fuzzies that come to the surface.
Last time I checked, our founding fathers occasionally shot each other to death in duels. I presume harsh words preceeded the duels. Have you considered the possibility that our country may descend into anarchy if the civilized people don’t get a little hot under the collar? The people with manners have been sitting quietly on their hands since about 1973, and the campus radicals haven’t learned from our restrained example yet.
And where were you when they did this to Bush in 2005, you said nothing, just like the
good little leftie you are. You stink, go lecture someone else because we are not
buying your BS
It is beyond disappointing to have one of or greatest historians, a scholar and and political analyst whom I have always held in the highest regard, conclude a lengthy article on the collapse of civility in political discourse, with the limp-wristed counsel: “Don’t point a finger…… but just simply say “that’s not my way. Otherwise we don’t have a tennis match”.
Or,as the Brits used to phrase it. pre-Islam: “I say, chaps, that’s just not cricket!”
Its just like saying: “If you’re going to play like that, I’m going to take my ball and go home! So there!” Except that they’ve taken the ball from us.
Obama’ theme song is, “I did it my way. You lose. Get over it.”
It i’s like telling victims of the Cripps to respond: “We only recognize marquis of Queensbury rules.”
Instead of telling us to roll over and pay dead, could Dr. Hanson not dig up, from his vast knowledge of Classic Western History, a more heartening message of, say, A Greek response to Persian hordes?
Nice article, but I think it’s too late. For those who think Joe won’t be re-elected, I wouldn’t bet on that. I’ve already made one donation to his campaign and everyone I know here in SC is quite pleased with what he said and content that he did not offer a second apology. If everyone thought the first one was insincere, why would a second be better? As a matter of fact, at a Town Hall meeting with Senator Lindsey Graham, everyone who spoke mentioned Joe Wilson’s outburst as an already forgiven sin. As for the “boycott,” who cares? That’s just one less group of elitist liberals to clean up after. Personally, I don’t care if they boycott Myrtle Beach, the only ones losing their business is going to be the strip joints, drug dealers and hookers. I must say, the Congressman that conjured up the KKK riding through the night to torture poor souls made me laugh out loud! Just what we need, another far-fetched tale on par with the Birthers, the Truthers, death panels and Communists. I guess everyone needs their own personal boogeyman and that’s what this administration really provides.
I agree that the loss of civil discourse in political today is problematic. It seems to be an outgrowth of the public’s decent into infantilism. Everything has become hyper-internalized and, as such, is met with an emotional response instead of an objective and rational response. There is no ability to maintain 2 or more conflicting thoughts or premises in one’s own mind and use such conflicting outliers to bound an objective truth that lies somewhere in between. That which conflicts must be purged.
However, there is another problem at issue here. Too long have our elected representatives used the rules of decorum to veil their lies and mask corruption. How is it then that a serial and egregious tax cheat has come to be head of the IRS without constant consternation on the floor of the senate and the house? Well such excoriation is “just not done” via the decorum rules. If a president is using the bully pulpit to effectively lie to the country should he not be called on it in a manner that reaches the same audience he just lied to? If not, the lies will eventually become accepted truth.
I guess I just don’t see an easy answer to the problem.
sure, it would be swell if everyone agreed to be polite and civil and we all romped through golden fields with bunnies and unicorns. however, take one short visit to the huffpo, kos, or DU comment sections and see what sort of civility is being practiced by those who are preaching it.
we can guard against excess, but if we do not call a spade a spade then we will be plowed under.
Dale, in point #48, is it possible for you to disagree without being disagreeable? For calling names demeans interaction. Or is that your endgame? Power only to you to shape the present and future?
Your essay, Dr. Hansonm speaks to the malaise of our time. I wonder (and sometimes despair) how we can bring back civility.
It won’t happen unless the left agrees, and since they see their mandate as the ends justify the means, I don’t see how that’s going to happen. I fear a Great Catharsis, in the form of war.
For once I agree with something the President said (West a jackass) — and then he takes it back! Why!
I’m reminded of a comment Gregory Peck’s character made in The Guns of Navarone:
“To win a war, you’ve got to be just as nasty as the enemy. Only thing that worries me is that someday we’re liable to wake up and find we’re even nastier than they are.”
Stu said: “I think it has to get worse before it gets better.”
I agree with you Stu. For some time I have felt we (the world) are in the midst of a decline in society very similar to the fall of the Roman Empire. Didn’t this take around 400 years?
We can choose to be part of the decline or part of the re-building process. The two processes need to go hand in hand.
You haven’t dealt with Alinsky and other leftists who developed tactics specifically to defeat decent and reasonable people. Decent people didn’t die out, they were defeated and routed from the field. They still show up from time to time and the Left crushes them.
Remember your Alinsky: pick the target, isolate the target, polarize the target, destroy the target. Attack people not institutions, because people hurt faster. There is nothing but the fight.
I find it ironic that there is an ad for Joe Wilson accompanying an article calling him an uncouth boor. And yea, he apologized. But the ad says ‘stand for truth.’ So, he seems to be exploiting his actions which kinda make the apology meaningless.
Good article though, appreciate the sentiment.
Joseph at 5.
We did not ignore our responsibility but we failed in it. We did not want our children to have to undergo the difficulties that we had to live through so we erred in not teaching them about some of the rougher realities that exist in any civilization.
We also erred in assuming that they were learning our country’s history in school. Even while helping them with their homework. At least that generation did learn to add, subtract and make change. Today’s graduates can’t make that claim
This is not unusual. My parents didn’t make me get up at 5am and gather eggs or feed stock since we had “progressed” and lived off the farm. We had a bus rather than walking four miles to school. Today’s graduates feel deprived if they don’t have a “cool” car.
We didn’t have to leave school for a month or so to help pick crops. Today’s don’t work while attending school and many don’t work while attending college.
My generation has retired from the field and can only shake our heads with despair for our country.
I almost pity the poor mutineers who now demand respect from the crew once they have deposed the captain. Almost.
VDH you are getting real close to the fool who won’t yell fire doing the opera for fear of offending the diva. This was definitely a “Fire” moment. We, the people, have no voice anymore with the MSM in bed with the left and no leader in the GOP who has a set, to proclaim our view. Joe was doing what any red blooded American would do when faced with outright lies from a man he was supposed to respect. When do you speak up? Where would Joe have spoken that anyone would have heard? God damn it! He was crying “Fire” for all of us!
“inside the beltway bedwetter”
VDH? Oh my
Congrats Doc, that’s gotta be a first.
Dr. Hanson:
I respectfully disagree with you on the outburst by Joe Wilson. Yes, he was impolite and violated the legislative rules of order, but this is nothing that the democrats have not gotten away with for years, perhaps decades. Conservatives have tried being decent, measured, kind, and temperant – and lost bigtime. Politics as played by Obama and Co. is a contact sport, show up prepared to bang heads or go home. Do I prefer to be polite, to be reasonable? Yes, but that is exactly the response the left is counting on, that we’ll fold under pressure when they lie to us, call us racists, or the like, or wimper that we’ve not playing fair. Boo Hoo – the left hasn’t played fair since Eisenhower was President. Given the choice between winning impolitiely or going meekly down to defeat, ala John McCain, I prefer the former. I’d rather die with my boots on, thanks.
Similarly, I have tried reasoning with teenagers who stand behind me and my wife in a restauarant, spewing profanity – asked them politely to stop, that there’s a lady present. Didn’t work. Instead, I had to get in their faces with my physical imposing frame and tell them I’d kick their pathetic butts if they didnt shape up. That worked; they left in a hurry. Morale of the story: bullies don’t understand anything but force, someone with the will to protect themselves. Which would you rather be, the hammer or the nail, Dr. Hanson? I know how I’d choose.
156.Rashputin:
You are correct the the demonization of Bush was wrong, but just because your enemies use a tactic does that give you the right to follow suit? And if you do does that give your enemies the right now to escalate to something even worse? Is it time, as genghis is now advocating, to “Lock and load, brother.”? Sounds a little scary to me.
I agree with 161. Bill
“That being said Obama’s seems to be under the same cloud that plagued George Bush. I believe both are good men. However the polarized populace whipped into an hysterical frenzy by the unaccountable talk show lunatics seem to be overwhelming the message they put forth.”
Let us all behave more like adults instead of like characters in Lord of the Flies. We must come to some accommodation with the millions of Americans that voted for Obama. I don’t think most here advocate the disfranchisement of half the electorate of our nation, so do you think calling them morons, nazis or worse is the best way to get them to see the light?
If an obscure Congressman had, in similar circumstances, voiced the same complaint against Andrew Jackson,the man on the twenty would have demanded the satisfaction of a duel. Upon hearing an offer of apology, Old Hickory could easily have relented and offered an invitation to the White House to receive it personally over hard cider. A truly teachable moment. (Of course had the offender been Clay or Calhoun no apology would be accepted and the pistols loaded).
Before the age of the telepromter, most other Presidents would have been able to stop their speech and extemporaneously rebuff any such heckler. And like him or not, Bill Clinton (and for that matter Ronald Reagan)would have adlibbed a 20 minute denunciation of both the accusation and the accuser that would have had left the member squirming in his seat. Addison Wilson is a very lucky member of Congress. And now, by his nickname “Joe”, he is the most well known member of the Republican opposition in Congress.
This Comments section has become an open cesspool. I’m enjoying it very much.
And for those of you calling Doctor Hanson a “center leaning liberal,” or a “good little leftie.”
Uhh, you don’t come here very often, do you?
Poor GW tried that.
When asked what he thought of how the current administration was handling the financial crisis he replied “..he deserves my silence”.
Remarkable grace in extreme circumstances.
The down side is that his administration was neutered by the constant attacks and his failure to defend his administration or his party. By losing the political initiative, he was unable to stop the financial crash or fix the impending disaster known as Social Security. And his Justice department was unable to uncover massive fraud in departments like HUD.
But, he was always civil. Too bad he finished last.
I too think it would be nice if we could return to civility but the genie is out of the bottle, how do we get him back in? (Note the racism against Arabs and the sexism to assume the genie is male).
For now, I am enjoying the comedy gold of watching the left squeal like pigs and squirm as their own tactics are used against them.
I offer this analogy: Suppose the Republicans had run Michael Steele for president and he had won. Then, suppose he decided to expand the war on terror by invading Syria. Would the resulting protests by Code Pink, the blistering editorials in the NYT, and the catcalls from the Democratic caucus have also been racist?
History repeats itself as proven by the words of Revolution Era Quaker Christopher Marshall:
“The maligant air of calumny has taken possession of almost all ranks and societies of people in this place. The rich, the poor, the high professor, the prophane (sic), seem all to be infected with this grevious disorder, so that the love of our neighbor seems to be quite banished, the love of self and opinions so far prevails…The enemies of our present struggle are grown even scurrilous to individuals and treat all characters who differ from them with the most opprobrious language.”
Is there hope? Philippe Brunau-Varilla offers some:
“It is necessary to wait patiently until the spring of the imagination of the wicked is dried up, and until truth dissipates the mists of mendacity.”
I think it’s time to stand firm and say, “enough is enough.”
Call out every lie.
Call out every deception.
Be ready with answers and know what you’re talking about.
The conservative movement must be noble and honourable but must also be willing to give the bully the black eye he so richly deserves.
ian
They censor Joe Wilson but a thief and miscreant like Rangel are allowed to continue as head of the most powerful committee in the House. No wonder why so many Americans are so angry. I refuse to tamely submit to this sort of elitism and hypocrisy and hope that more of our elected officials will speak truthfully in a public forum as this is the only venue for so many people to hear the truth because the elite media will not report the truth.
Great article, sir. Civility has been on the decline since the 60′s when the unwashed, lice-infested, hippy freaks took to the streets in the drug-induced daze to protest the war in Vietnam. Now that some of those like-minded zombies are in the halls of power in DC, they’re crude behavior has become the norm. It is indeed ironic and hypocritical of democRATS to complain about Mr. Wilson’s regrettable outburst when they, themselves lowered the bar for 8 years, constantly berating GWB and conservatives with slanderous statements, as you point out. For the most part, Republicans did hold back on the insults and crass comments during the Bush years. It’s time to take the gloves off but remain civil, using Alinsky’s model for destroying the “enemy”. The left will go bonkers.
You ask to tone down the rhetoric. Everybody should just stand back calm down and discuss the topic of the day. That’s reasonable.
I’m reminded of all the wars throughout history and the people who called for just that in the days weeks months before the violence.
It would be a unique study to document and praise those who stopped the momentum to violence.
Proofreading 101…”their drug-induced daze” not “the”
“their crude behavior” not “they’re”.
democRATS is intentional…they tried to lose a war and bring disgrace to a sitting president. They deserve the label.
I may be redundant here as I have not had the time nor inclination to read all the comments this essay has generated. However, I have to disagree fundamentally. Joe Wilson blurted out what many of us say aloud everytime the Dear Leader opens his mouth. Sometimes it is a needed thing for someone to point out that the Emporer is wearing no clothes. The POTUS is a liar and no amount of posturing, censuring, or rule adjusting will change that. Joe Wilson should get a medal – and a landslide reelection!
I’m a baby boomer. I’ve worked hard all my life and followed the rules. Now I’m 59, unemployed, and looking for a new job, a new career–I still want to work and contribute.
When I was a college student majoring in English Lit, virtually all of my professors–and, indeed, most of the professors in the humanities–were America-hating Marxists. None were baby boomers–all were older than the baby boomers, born in the 1930s for the most part, but also the 1920s. I wasn’t old enough to vote then. Most baby boomers weren’t. So the next time you think about going off and demonizing the baby boomers, you might want to re-target your rant and focus on the pre-baby boomer leftists who already dominated the humanities departments at the universities when the baby boomers started going to college.
Well said, professor. While we need to be passionate about what we believe, we also need to conduct ourselves in a civil manner. What happened to the golden rule: treat others as you would have them treat you?
I would add as a corollary to that, what goes around comes around.
“Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.”
Tower of the Elephant by Robert E. Howard
Mr. Hanson, with respect I must disagree with you. I lack your erudition in the classics. But let me refer you to a classic movie, The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp. Filmed in Britain in 1943, Winston Churchill wanted to suppress it’s message as too uncomfortable for wartime Britain.
Colonel Blimp was an British gentleman who preached sportsmanship, fair play and good conduct. He learned the hard way that sportsmanship cannot defeat National Socialists. Sometimes you have to fight fire . . with fire.
So today we must use the Rules for Radicals against the radicals who seek to enslave us, to destroy our rights, to tax our property and spend our hard-earned wealth, to indoctrinate our children into their dogma.
I’m a Baby Boomer, born in 1950. The earliest Baby Boomers did not not start voting until 1966. Baby Boomers were not numerous as voters for another decade. When I was a freshman in college, pursuing a degree in English Lit, the humanities were already (at least in my experience) dominated by leftists–men (mostly) born in the 1930s and 1920s. The dominance of leftist pre-Baby Boomers in academia would continue for many years.
Something to consider when one feels the urge to excoriate Baby Boomers for our present ills.
In response to 130 or so…
“Instead of telling us to roll over and pay dead, could Dr. Hanson not dig up, from his vast knowledge of Classic Western History, a more heartening message of, say, A Greek response to Persian hordes?”
Because Obama and his colleagues, for all their faults, are not Persians. They are Americans. Not conservative Americans, no, but Americans all the same.
A better analogy to a dustup would be the Peleponnesian war between Athens and Sparta. A war fought between two parties who thought they were the antithesis of each other but had a lot more in common than they did with either the Persians or the Macedonians. A war that both sides thought would be easy, a war started by people who had forgotten the terrors and the horrors of war, and had got so confused on their targeting that they spent thirty years murdering fellow Greeks when there were still plenty of Persians in the world.
A war which Sparta “won”, but in reality both sides lost. It led to the end of classical Greece and the tyranny first of Macedon than of Rome. Greece only got it’s independence again in the 1800s.
This is why it makes me very nervous when we talk about fellow Americans as though they were alien invaders. It may in fact be better to have Obama and co to rule America for decades than it would be to fight a civil war, turning ourselves into Latin America North for the rest of time. A pitiful collection of ministates, terrifying to no one but themselves.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
If you were able to get everyone to put down the slime balls, the Left would have nothing. Facts are a conservative’s friends, not a modern liberal’s/socialist’s.
Indeed, most of the time, it’s just the unadorned truth from conservatives that the Left whines about as being “insensitive”, “discrimination” and various other denigrating terms.
This unilateral disarmament, turning the other cheek, not fighting fire with fire is what’s let the Left progress as far as they have with their dirty tactics. They need to be called on their lies and hypocrisy every time and that doesn’t look nice, no matter how neutral a tone you use. It is almost impossible to avoid being coated with some mud even when defusing someone else’s slimeballs.
The Republicans have pranced about following Marquess of Queensbury rules, fallen on their swords when caught in the least wobble. Where has that gotten them? Where did McCain’s gentlemanliness get him? Meanwhile, Dem Congressmen have gotten away with blatant immorality, stealing and corruption. Not one has been turfed for his low moral character. Instead, Dems re-elect these blots on decency over and over again.
What use is the Republican “moral” victory when it resulted in the dirty Dems running rampant over the land?
Y’know, I really shouldn’t comment twice in a day without response, but I must take exception to the idea that rudeness somehow confers a tactical advantage.
Reagan beat the snot out of Carter, and he did it by being genial while making Carter look ridiculous. The Gingrich revolution of 1994 wasn’t won by yelling ‘you lie!’ at President Clinton, but by making the case that his health care plan was a disaster for the US. We succeeded. He lost the house for the first time in fifty years.
Around the 2002-2006 time frame, Republicans held both houses of Congress and the white house, while the Dems were a shrill minority. I think their yelling and screaming helped them more than hurt them.
Republicans have won some resounding tactical and strategic victories over the past thirty years. The reason G. Bush lost so much in 2006 is not becuase he was polite, but because he alienated his conservative backers on immigration. We didn’t lose in 2008 because we were nice and the Dems were rude, but because Mccain was a hapless candidate running on Bush’s war record against the most charismatic politician of his generation, backed by the full might of the mainstream media and fresh-from-the-propaganda-mill college students.
In short, we’ve been beating Democrats for thirty years because we’ve got better ideas and we can organize. I’ll wager that formula will work again. We don’t need to descend to the level of the Alinskys of the world to win, but we do have to look at ourselves in the mirror the next morning.
The last Rep I remember winning by a dirty trick was G. Bush 1 deploying the Willie Horton ad against Dukakis. And Bush 1 was such an outstanding Republican that he gave us Souter. Blah. I saw we take Reagan’s path ideologically and personally, and leave Bush 41 tricks to the Dems.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
The late George Carlin once did a famous comedy routine about the seven words you can’t say on TV. Now you can say all of them, although the worst are reserved for pay cable. I’d always wanted to ask him if he was proud of his role in coarsening our culture. Maybe someone else is asking him that question now.
VDH is on the money in his analysis of the state of our state. The reference to “stasis” is precise and makes me wonder what is next. Gibbon often refers to similar Roman times using word like: ennervated, effeminate, indolent, and puerile. For those who are female, I don’t think Gibbon was using effeminate in the context of “like a woman.”
Rather, Thucyidides and Gibbon are describing a culture (or at least its leadership) that prefers the petty to actually doing the right thing. The inability to move beyond the inconsequential to the heart of matters. In short, the culture and/or its leadership lost their proverbial “stones.”
Though I hope we are not following the cultural decline that Thucydides and Gibbon describe so well, I am certain we are. Enron, FNMA, sub-prime loans, GNMA, cash for clunkers, Bill Clinton, Elliot Spitzer, Barack Obama…you get the picture. The beat goes on…
VDH:
I’m not averse to some of the examples of incivility you describe. Joe Wilson violated rules of decorum that don’t apply to the rest of us. He made his point and on balance enhanced his political stature. Boorish? Maybe. Worth it? Probably. As for the tennis stars, hip-hop artists et. — who cares what they do. They only represent themselves and the various sectors of the entertainment industry, i.e., not the real world.
It strikes me as ironic that the enforced pseudo-civility in the work place and in schools the last few decades has been accompanied by people going “postal” on their co-workers and episodes of Columbine type shootings. Not proof of causation, but makes you wonder if this way madness lies.
And of course, in politics this is pretty well established. People gotta’ vent, express their opinions, hold their representatives accountable, call bullsh*t on hypocrites, and rile up the opposition to the point they lose whatever vestige of rationality they possess and so devolve into calling you names. Absent that process, we get Mao’s version of a tea party.
Young Man: “Justice Holmes, how is it that you are so invariably polite to everyone?”
Holmsey: “Young Man, when I was growing up, everyone was armed.”
Speaking of name calling, that would be the forte of our boy wonder president. I never bought the trope he’s a real Chicago thug politician. That’s Democrat myth-making. He’s more the dilettante wannabe who would never get his hands dirty mixin’ it up. Doubt he ever got any respect down in the hood where merely dissin’ folks is considered child’s play.
Ditto for his erstwhile mentor, Bill Ayers, the poster child for highborn white liberal guilt. No gunpowder residue on his hands. Better to stay alive and play the poet-of-the-revolution forty years later to fawning acolytes like Obambi. If ever there was a suck up rich white kid dying to crawl inside the skin of a black man, it would be him. The word pathetic doesn’t even begin to pertain.
Okay. Sorry for the name calling. Just had to get that off my chest. FWIW, off camera on the football field the players are all slurring each others’ mamas. Part of the game.
And in professional hockey fist fights are still allowed. Helps to defuse the animosity. After all, that’s a blood sport where the contestants are armed and dangerous. Sticks and stones…and whatnot. There are worse things than being uncouth.
I love it when you make my point for me, thanks #179. It’s just like dealing with kindergarteners only they, at least, don’t know any better.
“Well he did it”
“How come he gets to to that”
“It’s not fair”
Guess what, LIFE is NOT fair. Remember that the next time you see a homeless person, someone who is disabled, or someone who is suffering. Being an adult means that one should be able to put our “feelings” aside and behave in a CIVIL manner, even to those who don’t deserve it.
Civil not subservient, not cowed, not intimidated. Ann Coulter is one of the most civil people today but she sticks it to the hypocrites and liars with skill and aplomb. That is how real adults behave. Too bad they are becoming an endangered species.
Essential vdh?
All Americans will simply have to chose sides now. We have gone past the point of productive discourse. VDH cannot have it both ways within this particular “fight”.
Intellectual evaluation and historical perspective has its function but it is not even close to the needed solution that requires action by all involved. Including a Joe Wilson. He acted without thinking but did speak what he knew to be the truth. We by now should all know it.
Intellectual “politeness” and play can only begin to point the way of understanding for those that are on the sidelines, if they but can be “convinced” but likely not. They in fact are “lazy” and even infected with the Utopian idea that something can be given to them for “nothing”. This kind of activity has no ability to Act as needed for those who will and need to act.
When Joe Wilson, described what BHO was doing during his speech in two words—we are now debating Joe Wilson. A welcome diversion to the BHOOs, the “fringe Media” and intellectual Academics playing in the political world.
This debate about Joe Wilson justifies who the BHOOs,Fringe Media, and the Academic Intellectuals playing in politics are without highlighting their ultimate useless static state and danger to America.
America is now in a dynamic fight with consequences that go far beyond the Boorishness of being impolite. Those in a room with a live hungry hyena will root hog or die. Can or should, in such a circumstance, one be polite.
For anyone thinking that Joe Wilson was a boor to do what he did does not fully understand the consequences of the situation that America is now in. And probably never will until it is to late.
We need someone to break the “polite” discourse of indoctrination and subversion now going on and being delivered by the BHOOs and the “fringe Media” (FM).
Never has any one group of identified members acted in concert at such an ignorant and imbecile way in the last few days as the fringe media (FM), formerly known as the MSM.
The revolutionary left and their propaganda arm, the FM, uses “polite” as a weapon against America and Americans, especially conservative Americans who have been taught to be polite but have forgotten why.
Americans who have been lucky enough to be born when a classical liberal (conservative) education was still delivered that taught “politeness” as a virtue may have forgotten that it was not to protect the BHOOs. When misapplied a virtue like “politeness” becomes a weakness. It is not boorish to not use it when it is not called for. Quite the opposite.
For the BHOOs, there is a concerted effort to lie and cover up using familiar language that means something entirely different to real Americans
—Americans must Remember, no matter what is said the “Wolf is simply trying to get into the door to eat you up” He will huff and puff and blow your house down. If your defense is “straw” you will lose.
Americans should not be subject to the subversive effects of the BHOO idiots positioning themselves to grab power. Positioning themselves based on their indoctrinated and ignorant “thinking”.
Americans, especially Americans who value freedom and individual responsibility should have gotten the needed education using readily available knowledge about “brain washing” and how it is accomplished. They should not become a “victim” expecting handouts.
Americans cannot or should not fall for these known communist brain washing techniques. They have been studied by American Academics and Psychologists since the 50′s. And known about for centuries before that.
Why are we now not able to see nor have we learned the value of the founding fathers genius?
America has no remaining educational structure within our dumbed down educational system that can combat the AA, PC, and race baiting Utopian ideas and words that are designed to create weak, compliant minded and psychotic individuals. A controllable cult.
This kind of indoctrination currently being used with the existing Unionised educational system purposely makes it so the “students” cannot see or even understand what is being done to them. They have been “blindfolded” by “studies” that have replaced common sense and “truths”. The founding fathers are racists and bigots.
No context of time and place is considered, (another communist indoctrination tool) that America was the only country that fought a civil war to free slaves or the fact that slavery still exists in Africa and is common in Northern Africa. Black on Black Slavery?
In the current American educational system Utopian Straw is as good as solid brick. The needed brick house can be built out of straw, it is better and easier.
A Utopian ideology (straw) that promotes class war fare to underwrite and rationalize political actions that takes from those that work and give it to those that do not will destroy America, even as it gives temporary power to the idiots who peddle this garbage.
The fundamental problem within the real and rational universe is that this kind of Utopian thinking does not work nor is it applicable in systems that involve human nature. It has of course killed millions of people and destroyed nations.
Chose what kind of America you want Americans or quit blowing smoke or listening to smoke and propaganda that not only is a lie but has as its sole purpose the perfuming of a communist/socialist Agenda being sold to Americans, being sold to Americans to control and own America.
This agenda promoting the self destruction of America is the basis of BHOOs cynical use of words that have meanings quite the opposite of what is being said by him and the shadow government that surrounds him.
The BHOOs use of words is equivalent to raiding the Bee hives of their honey by using smoke to calm the bees.
The indoctrinated and subverted American left is taking a page from the communist minister of propaganda using simple psychological tricks that only can be understood by the use of nursery rhymes that are no longer being used in the education of Americans.
Nursery Rhymes and stories that carried deep psychological understanding of human nature that we have long sense forgotten. Without their context and meaning most Americans now are defenseless.
These critical teachings were replaced in favor of the nonsense now spouted within the educational system and pop psychology books that are now more a function of teachers Union propaganda and subversion than the fundamental culture and value of America.
The high water mark of human development is now being taken down from within by idiots and the ignorant but greedy fringe while America, and Americans look on.
While we watch. While we watch. Or will you chose which side you will be on. You cannot have both. They are mutually exclusive any good fairy tale could have told you that.
Don’t be the idiot that thinks putting a grain of wheat into a bowel will let you take out a loaf of bread.
Brian wrote, “This is why it makes me very nervous when we talk about fellow Americans as though they were alien invaders. It may in fact be better to have Obama and co to rule America for decades than it would be to fight a civil war, turning ourselves into Latin America North for the rest of time. A pitiful collection of ministates, terrifying to no one but themselves.”
Brian, are you really willing to live under Obama and company for decades, rather than risk a “hot” civil war? Your concern is admirable, but there is already a de facto civil war happening in America, between those who value America’s Judeo-Christian heritage and those who do not, those who believe “E Pluribus Unum” – “From many, one” – and not “From one, many.” It is a fight between those who believe in liberty and those who do not, and those who see ever-growing government as a Leviathan to be feared, and those who do not. Increasingly, these views are irreconcilable in fact and in reality. yes, of course there are shades of gray, there always are on any given issue – but if the moderate, sensible center fails to hold, then what?
My convinction is that our downfall started when too many politicians, and Americans generally, began to view victory at all costs as more important than sustaining the processes and institutions that made our system unique. It began when people learned to love what was good for them, more than what is good for all Americans.
28. Mickey:
As a military man, and seeing what is happening to my country, I am dismayed and disheartened.
At some point before the fall of Rome, there must have been a Last Legion manning the walls. They knew the city was doomed…that they could not hold the line, and soon the Eternal City would be in flames. Yet they didn’t abandon their posts, they stood and died. Probably for no other reason than they were loathe to desert their fellow legionaires, and the memory of the greatness that once was Rome.
I feel like those legionaires.
The difference, of course, is that along with the barbarians approaching from outside the city, the citizens I have sworn to defend have already begun burning the city behind us…and are throwing rocks and insults against us who remain on the wall.
I pray that God will save us…but since God is perectly just and gives us total freedom, I fear that He will not protect us from the consquences of our own decisions.
At some point in the future, when my tour of duty is completed and I am (God willing) neither dead nor disgraced, I plan to utter the words of Davey Crocket when he left the Congress:
“You all can go to Hell, I’m a-goin’ to Texas.”
Sep 15, 2009 – 5:59 am
First and foremost, thank you for your service to and sacrifice on behalf of our country. I have the utmost respect for those who wear the uniform.
I agree that we are in sad shape – but I also believe that we will prevail. There’s just too much at stake to consider any other option.
Just a day or two ago, I created a .ning page seeking military personnel who might be interested in running for public office.
Please distribute the url to anyone you know who might serve in another capacity. We need honorable candidates to undo the damage of a Congress gone wild. I’d happily take 535 retiring Officers & NCOs over the nest of snakes currently staining the Capitol.
I’d also like to issue the call for web developers who could set up a multiple choice poll so we can get some sort of platform posted.
1. Constitutional governance.
2. Audit
3. Borders
4?
5?
….
I have come to the conclusion that something good can be found in everything life presents.
“…when in a war, foreign or intestine, the enemies get a final victory, so as, the forces of the Commonwealth keeping the field no longer, there is no further protection of subjects in their loyalty, then is the Commonwealth dissolved, and every man at liberty to protect himself by such courses as his own discretion shall suggest unto him.”
Thomas Hobbes – Leviathan, 1651
209. Roughcoat:
You hit the nail on the head. The rot began a lot earlier than the ’60s. My experience in college in the ’60′s was like yours; lots of leftists as professors most of whom had received their higher education in the 30′s, 40′s and 50′s. I was fortunate though to have had a few professors that actually taught the subject matter. Those are the ones I patterned myself after.
210. JMD:
Don’t you see that what went around has come around. The left has been sowing the seeds of hate and violent discord for quite a few years and now they are reaping the harvest. The Daily Kos and MoveOn have provided the road map. One can’t plant ragweed and expect to harvest corn.
“In the short-term it is a losing political formula for conservatives, but in the long term it is the only way to restore sanity and a winning strategy.”
Too late. It’s a real war and someone has to lose. Maintain civilization *within* your own alliance. Keep true to certain rules *within* your own alliance. But against the enemies of civilization, traditional western civilization at least, fight to win.
(**@#$%$%^* Barack )_&*$# Obama, _(*%%%*&# Rahm (&@!()*&^ Emanuel and that &@*&% David Axelrod!! That goes for &@!~>*&$% Barry’s %^&**##%$-buddy William (the #$%$^#) Ayers, too. @#&^$ every last *&#!@#$^% one, the whole @#@#$ %%^*&*, &^%$%^, @&(^& lot of ‘em!
I feel much better now . . .
After around 30 yrs of subscription, we’re down to only Sat and Sun for the NY Times. All I really read now are the sports and business sections on Sunday…. Soon we’ll let the subscription run out…
Dinasouar Dropping…I always taught that we were to defend our country from both foreign and domestic enemies…Lets see… which camp does our president fall into?
The US has been gravitating towards a ghetto-class mentality for a couple generations, since the advent of post-modernism. These incidents are just the facings.
The usual extreme right wing slanted political rant from Mr. Elitest right wing intellectual know-it-all…so predictable…yawn…
RSG
I wasn’t there but I learned from my history courses in high school (back in the olden days when authentic Patriotism and American History was taught)that the Founding Fathers at the Continental Congress in 1787 had a screaming raucus time debating the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Seems they mostly got it right and even Adams and Jefferson were able to reunite in the true spirit of patriotism and respect. Obama is a domestic bully and showing himself to be worse than an international weakling which is more than rude; it’s dangerous to our Liberty.
While I don’t call political opponents Nazis, I do frequently call them fascists.
As I am referring specifically and in context to their advocacy of private ownership but public control of property, or to their subordination of the individual to the state, is this still polite?
If not, then I would prefer not to be polite.
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