Libya: The Genesis of a Bad Idea
The president spoke Monday night to clarify our intervention in Libya. Instead he made things worse, and could not explain the mission (are we/are we not after Qaddafi?), the methodology to achieve it (are we in a no-fly-zone or are we bombing ground targets essential to save the rebels?), and the desired outcome (who are the “rebels,” what do we wish from them, and are they better than Qaddafi?). Indeed, after almost two weeks, these questions still have not been asked much less answered.
So the omissions pose the question: how did Obama, the archetype war critic, find himself bombing—in optional and preemptive fashion, and without congressional authority — an Arab Muslim oil-exporting country, and one that posed no immediate threat to American national security, despite being governed by a monster who, nevertheless, had been recently courted by Western intellectuals, academics, universities, and diplomats?
Unfortunately, Obama has no principled or strategically logical foreign policy. So it is mostly loud declarations that he is not George Bush and making things up ad hoc as he goes along. Here, I think, is what happened with Libya.
Nearly the entire Middle East (save the bugaboo democracies in Iraq and Israel) erupts three months ago against a potpourri of oligarchy, theocracy, dictatorship, monarchy, and military juntas — the common thread being anger against corrupt, kleptocratic dynasties that have ruined the economies of what should be otherwise rich countries and denied basic freedoms.
Obama is confused and has no typology of these uprisings, except a crude binary. On the one hand, some of the demonstrations are against pro-American strongmen and thus can be channeled into “the hope and change,” “we are the change we’ve been waiting for” left rhetoric. He thus piggy-backed (albeit belatedly as is his “vote-present” style) onto Tunisia and Egypt. We endorsed the reformers only when we knew they were going to win and they seemed to reflect liberal “change” against Cold War-like, American client SOBs.
Some others rebellions, however, were clearly aimed at anti-American pseudo-revolutionary regimes and so they have prompted a very different response from Obama. In the case of Iran, he apologized for 1953 and promised not to “meddle”; initially with Qaddafi he was silent. And he still practices “outreach” with the Syrian “reformer” Assad.
We should, then, have expected Obama to stay out of Libya, the way he has Iran and Syria, and concentrated largely in expressing support for rebellions against pro-American juntas — albeit only once he was assured they might win. But a perfect storm of events sucked him instead into Libya in a way he never imagined:
1) The Europeans (mostly the British and French) suddenly wanted to intervene in Libya, in a manner they had not amid protests elsewhere. Why? Oil, for one reason. Europe imports 10% of their oil and gas from Libya at very little transportation cost, and so it was deemed wise to be on the right side of the most likely government to be. Proximity, of course. Libya is a Mediterranean country with a tiny population of 6.5 million, as easy to operate militarily against, as Afghanistan and Iraq are difficult — and one that by such proximity might in extremis pose problems for Europe. More importantly, the “rebels” seemed like they would capture Tripoli within just a few days. So the French and British sensed an opportunity to accomplish a number of things at very little cost by declaring an intent to intervene militarily: they could ensure continued oil contracts with the likely winners under the guise of humanitarian anguish; they could avoid a drawn-out war by nudging the rebels over the top; and they could put the U.S. in an untenable position. By declaring their humanitarian fides and getting ahead of America in public concern over “genocide,” the Europeans would force the U.S. hand: if Obama did not act, he would look weak and de facto cede traditional American moral leadership to an ascendant Europe; if Obama did, he would do so in response to European initiatives, and end up with the worst of both worlds: shamed into providing 90% of the muscle while ceding the credit of a “sure” win to Sarkozy and Cameron. Europe, then, read Obama perfectly.
2) The “rebels.” No one in either the U.S. or Europe had much idea who or what the “rebels” were. But they assumed that because similar protestors had won easily in Egypt and Tunisia, and had appealed to the “Facebook” and “Twitter” crowd, these rebels likewise were surely ascendant Westernized Banisadr-like socialists. If Obama had been tardy in expressing support for protestors in Egypt and Tunisia, he was now feeling the heat a third time in Libya — especially as Qaddafi turned his guns against those who spoke impassioned English on CNN and the BBC.
Even though Qaddafi was a “revolutionary” anti-American figure, and even though his family and minions were intertwined with Western universities and intellectuals, Obama was worried about yet a third time being a day late and a dollar short, especially amid televised violence. Because he neither understood the rag-tag nature of the rebels (and either did not grasp or did not wish to grasp the jihadist elements among them), nor appreciated that tyrants like Qaddafi, quite unlike Mubarak and a Bin Ali, without compunction kill and “like it,” Obama had no idea that, in fact, the rebels could fizzle, and may, in fact, not be just Westernized intellectuals who want to turn Libya into Dubai.
3) The Three Graces. Then there were Hillary Clinton, Susan Rice, and Samantha Powers who saw Libya as a postmodern goldmine. Think of it: an apparent cakewalk victory; restoring Obama credibility after the opportunistic and late endorsements in Egypt and Tunisia; a way to show that liberal interventions are tough, compassionate, and competent; subordination to the United Nations, the Arab League, and Europe; outsourcing of congressional approval to international prerogatives; using the military not for U.S. interests but for “humanitarian concerns” to stop “genocide.” And on and on.
So they bullied an otherwise distracted Obama (NCAA playoffs, golf, a Rio jaunt) into a sure-thing, “landmark” intervention on the cheap. Note very well: Key here was an important fact that the saner heads who knew something about strategy and the use of military force (e.g., Richard Holbrooke and James Jones) were either dead or gone. Robert Gates tried to warn Obama, but was overwhelmed.
Sum it all up: Obama thought that in a matter of days liberal Facebookers would storm Tripoli. He would get credit this time for being “there for them.” U.S. military intervention would be radically redefined as both competent and quick, in concert with the Europeans and subordinate to the international community. For Obama, the unBush, all that, amid sinking polls again, was too good to pass up (but also too hard to expend much energy on), so he voted more sorta yes than just present.
No one in this giddy “get it done before Tripoli falls” mood asked simple questions: How does our entry reflect long-term U.S. interests? Why Libya and not, say, a Syria? Why Libya and not, say, a Congo or Ivory Coast? How can the anti-war base now explain their decade-long opposition to just such preemptive attacks against Middle East Muslim countries (i.e., Bush went to Congress, and now Obama does not?)? Was Qaddafi the father of the Westernized poster boy Saif, or now back to the “mad dog of the Middle East”? Can the rebels really fight and who are they? Would a no-fly zone really do much good against Qaddafi’s ground assets? Did the UN and Arab League really mean just a no-fly zone and nothing much more? How long does Congress keep quiet? What happens if there is stalemate (e.g., how do we avoid a Mogadishu, or a long no-fly zone like over Iraq or a long bombing campaign like the Balkans?)? How to finesse the PR of concurrent obligations in Afghanistan and Iraq and a $1.6 trillion deficit?
I could go on ad nauseam, but you get the picture.
And now? There is only one way out: Obama must get Qaddafi pronto, by attacks on his ground assets, with Western special forces and intelligence services coordinating on the ground with the rebels (laptop GPS directions to our pilots, supplying arms, etc.). Then watch the laureate Obama hope and change away the resulting hypocrisies of embracing what he promised not to do—and outsource the messy occupation to the oil-hungry French and Britain, and the UN.
I think that is what we, in fact, will see — a messy end to a messy beginning.







You know what the most striking thing about Obama’s intervention was, at least for me?
The way it looked like the decision was made.
It seemed utterly………………..Imperial.
The fact that congress does not seriously object suggests to me that the Republic is in fact dead.
Welcome to reality. Our Republic passed 44BC some time ago.
BTW, VDH’s analysis and conclusion are spot on.
Indeed. Professor Hanson continues to hit them over the fence, one after another.
I vehemently disagree. I’ll admit to not being a fan of VDH in general, though he is right on some things some of the time. But this is just too much:
Wrongo city!
Richard Holbrooke got us into the debacle and ongoing cesspool that is Kosovo. He was instrumental in influencing the Clinton Administration to demonize, vilify, and go to war against the entire Serbian people. He blood-libeled the Serbian people and helped to cover up the misdeeds of the Muslims in the Balkans. The upshot of Holbrooke’s machinations was that, as in Libya, the US went to war on the side of the local branch of al Qaeda. I call that treason.
One of the few good things that has happened to America during the Obama Administration is the demise of Holbrooke.
There wasn’t even any debate on the issue. None. Absolutely none!
I would say that the Republic died when the wrongfully-canonized Abraham Lincoln flouted the US Constitution over and over, so as to “preserve the Union” for the purpose of continuing to extract tax revenues from the South. In his own words, he admitted that chattel slavery had nothing to do with it. It was all about tariffs, and paying off the railroad barons who had been his clients when he was a supposedly humble country lawyer.
What little remained of the Republic was expunged during the Wilson and FDR administrations. We don’t have a Republic; we have an oligarchy that regularly goes through the motions of elections so as to put up a figurehead president who always does their bidding. The purpose of the party primary system is to remove all candidates who might actually take seriously their oaths to uphold the US Constitution.
And people wonder why I’ve been a secessionist for so many years. The US federal government is a tyranny that is accountable to no one, and secession is the only way to break its hold.
The problem with secession is that you will still have a government, elected I suppose. Who runs for government office? The same type of people. Look at the local governments in your section of the country. Now tell me how a new country would be any different after a short while.
THANKS YOU SAID WHAT NEEDED TO BE SAID. The little pretend president with his hollow personality and lack of experience in economics, military, and foreign affairs acquired the highest office in the land through the assistance of the UNINFORMED, IGNORANT, AND TINGLING LIBERAL MEDIA. His only experience was as a community organizer which is nothing more than a method of “getting other peoples money” While this is pathetic enough the problem is compounded and sustained by legislators who are weak, cowardly, and “potted plants” in failing to maintain the balance of power. In effect we don’t have a president, we have an emperor who bypasses the representatives of the American people and gets his permission from the UN. Once out of office you can expect Obama to be available to head the UN and thereby continue being in charge of the USA. Sadly, BHO will likely be re elected in 2012 as he can continue to count on the stupidity of the American people and the assistance of the media. Yes, the Republic has died. RIP.
Agreed – but a few comments.
1) Yes, the British and French went in and shamed Obama into going in. It was quite something to hear Obama, however, in his speech on Libya, claim that HE was the instigator of the Libyan action; that HE did it on humanitarian grounds; that HE put together a coalition; that HE was ‘not unilateral’ (unlike, he claimed..Bush was).
Obama, as usual living only in the virtual make-believe world of his own words, was wrong on every point. The British and French were the initiators; they put together the ‘coalition’ – and Obama most certainly has nothing humanitarian about him. And Bush went to the UN, to Congress, and also, had a coalition of over 40 nations. Facts never enter the virtual world of Obama.
2)I do, however, quibble about the nature of the rebels. I think that the reality of the economic situation in the ME – that triad that I keep bringing up, of massive population explosion, an out-of-date and inadequate economic mode of statist socialism; and an out-of-date political mode of tribalism that prevents a middle class….I think that these are the basic causes of the ME implosion and rage.
The majority of the populations are impoverished because a statist socialist economy cannot support this exponential population growth. The Rulers have no intention of releasing economic power to a capitalist middle class (which is what is necessary) and no intention of releasing political power to this set of people. That’s what the fight is all about.
There is no evidence that the ME people want yet another totalitarian govt, in the form of Islamic fundamentalism, i.e., to replace one dictatorship with another.
3) Obama? He hasn’t a clue. He’s economically, politically and historically ignorant. His whole life achievements have been by his personal manipulation skills: the ‘shout-outs’, the charm, the laughs, the emotional and vapid rhetoric…and yes, the racism. He’s never developed a policy, a theory, a program. And he has no ability (or desire) to do so; that’s all left to others. That partly explains his dithering..as his advisors battle each other over the agenda.
4) As for Obama’s desire to hand it all over to NATO and get out – I maintain that is due to other pressures on him. I’d suggest his wife – Remember, Obama has always been dominated by a strong woman: his grandmother, mother, wife…and all of them are, ideologically, the same: anti-American, anti-capitalist, socialist.
Obama is being pulled several ways now; the military and Democrats want to win in Libya – and that means: get Ghadaffi out. His closest personal advisors want him out..and also, want it to fail..to ‘get Sarkozy’. Obama and his family have no liking for Sarkozy, for Sarkozy has sneered at Obama, openly defining him as immature, as living in a virtual rather than a real world. Obama cannot handle criticism – and he won’t forget or forgive Sarkozy for those words.
In other words – it’s a mess. Why? Because we have, as President, an ignorant and shallow individual who acts, not for policy reasons but for personal psychological reasons; i.e., he lives in a virtual world, an unreal world where words are his only reality. He can’t handle the real world; he requires others to tell him what to do – and he, himself, has no ability to discern, analyze, evaluate..what he is told. Or what he says – which is why he’s always so contradictory, so vague, and why what he says one day is immediately forgotten one hour later.
“I think that the reality of the economic situation in the ME – that triad that I keep bringing up, of massive population explosion, an out-of-date and inadequate economic mode of statist socialism; and an out-of-date political mode of tribalism that prevents a middle class….I think that these are the basic causes of the ME implosion and rage.”
ETAB nails it. Supposing religious hardliners do take over these revolutions and impose strict Islamic law, what then? That happened in Iran 22 years ago, and they haven’t been able to build a functional economy yet. Does anyone imagine the Muslim Brotherhood will do so, or even try? And as economic pressures mount, where will a desperate populace turn next? Since 1948 nothing the Arab world has tried has worked. The fire next time might be even worse.
Our best bet is to walk away from this mess as quickly as we can and, for goodness sake, produce our own energy, completely.
“Since 1948 nothing the Arab world has tried has worked”
Depends on what your definition of “worked” is.
It “worked” for Nasser…it “worked” for Khomeini…it “worked” for Arafat.
Spoils & Plunder, Power & Palaces, Rule by fear and travel by helicopter. Black Limosines & Blonde Hookers. Its worked out fine for the leaders of all ME countries since time immortal. When the objective is to be the guy on top, everyone else but the few get screwed.
You see, the basic problem in the ME is their ideal of “success”, that being the despicable life a freak named Mohammed.
Spoils, Plunder, Power, Loot, and Rule by Fear. Grab as much as you can, RIGHT NOW and fight to the death to hold on, because everyone but the top dog (and his small cadre soldier/thieves) is a loser to be despised by God himself.
They are all fighting for the same thing…Quadaffy, the rebels, the Taliban, whoever….they all want to be “him”…the guy with HIS boot (or sandal) on the OTHER guys throat. To them, Compassion is weakness, Charity an embarassment, and Productivity a liability.
Unless and until “we” conquer, kill, occupy and/or re-educate every single last living soul over there, (think: Japan in 1945) “they” will always be seeking the same goal. The one prize that they all want, but only a few can ever attain.
The vicious, endless cycle of Mohammeds World.
Muslims have to become Christians, in order to live like Humans.
Also agree with VDH and ETAB. Add: Global Socialist George Soros & CO. who established “Global Centre for Resposibility To Protect” to advance Samantha Powers manifesto and plan (under cutsey “R2P”) to subordinate US military to a UN-controlled police force to be used at will of “Inernational (Socialist) Community.” One such Powers-announced project is to form “a mammoth” armed force to intervene “to protect the Palestinians” from Israel.
I think most of the dithering was due to little lenin’s normal pattern of insisting that the parties to blame and the means to take credit must be determined ahead of time. That was obviously the only “planning”, as always, that was done. They didn’t even bother to find out who the rebels were, how many of them there were, and whether or not they had any real military capabilities. No time for that, but plenty of time to determine the scapegoats in case the whole thing fails.
I agree with your premis about the real underlying cause of the unrest in the ME, but don’t see much reason to be optimistic about it. Take away Turkey and Iraq (vastly different situation), and there isn’t any real history in the region of anything but medieval Islamic dominance or other forms of oppressive dictatorships. If the west had some leaders who wanted to and were capable of helping the people in a way that would discourage Islamic totalitarianism, I would say that it’s an opportunity with some potential. But the western leaders are exactly the opposite. Europe is salivating to get more control of oil, and little lenin’s can’t escape his built-in function of loving chaos (because he absolutely believes that he can manipulate any crisis to his advantage).
ETAB,
You are wrong about one thing. Obama is a very committed socialist and always has been. His wife is just reinforcement.
Socialism is a set of beliefs which do not match reality. So when a socialist acts, it looks stupid. For that reason, you can’t tell the difference between an intelligent person who believes in Socialism, and a stupid person. They both do the same things. They do things and expect the opposite of what really happens.
So how do I know Obama is a committed socialist and not stupid? Because of his past. If you read the books which analyze his past – even by sympathetic authors, his socialist beliefs come through.
” There is no evidence that the ME people want yet another totalitarian govt, in the form of Islamic fundamentalism, i.e., to replace one dictatorship with another.”
Just because they may not want one doesn’t mean they wont get one.
There is only one bit I’d quibble over
There is no evidence that the ME people want yet another totalitarian govt, in the form of Islamic fundamentalism, i.e., to replace one dictatorship with another.
The people are at such a basic level in their tribal/clan society that they don’t know that internal feeling of freedom and liberty or democracy.
Even in the US they cannot appreciate what they have to rebel against their cultural repressive state.
They are under the boot whichever way they turn.
The religious side of things is very strictly applied with the local Imam’s watchers making sure that their “protection racket” has everybody behaving according to the “book”. Pity the poor guy who eats with his left hand.
Great post outlining the very real issues with our president. And I would add one more – a culpable media totally in bed with him.
In any rational world the left media would be running headlines like this:
http://herbegerenews.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/obama-guilty-of-war-crimes/
Very Good. Great Points. Now if only we can get the left to see him as such. And get this guy out of Office before anymore damage is done…I pray for a miracle in 2012… otherwise we are truly doomed…right now I still have hope…
“So the French and British sensed an opportunity to accomplish a number of things at very little cost by declaring an intent to intervene militarily: they could ensure continued oil contracts with the likely winners under the guise of humanitarian anguish; they could avoid a drawn-out war by nudging the rebels over the top; and they could put the U.S. in an untenable position. By declaring their humanitarian fides and getting ahead of America in public concern over “genocide”, the Europeans would force the U.S. hand”
Boff, there’s no TV and Internet in the US, that they had to rely on the French and the Brits to be told what’s going on !
Bad faith !
The US went into the Coalition, because they decided to participate to the Air Show, there’s new models to show:
http://defensetech.org/2011/03/28/spectres-and-warthogs-join-libyan-fight/
and some are complaining that their new warships weren’t sent to Medterranea
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2011/03/while-libya-rages-navy-sends-its-newest-warship-to-san-diego/
So what is that? a big commercial arms selling enterprise, where new models are tested !
Would you think that the US were absent in such a opportunity?
who do you want to kid with your blah blah, the French, the Brits drove the poor US into a “european” conflict, that has no concern for them !
Sorry Marie Claude,
The US went into the Coalition, because they decided to participate to the Air Show, there’s new models to show:
http://defensetech.org/2011/03/28/spectres-and-warthogs-join-libyan-fight/
But both the Spectre and the A10 Warthog have been around for decades, no new models their. And do we really need the newest warships to confront patrol boats?
Well, I think we can all agree that France, Britain and the USA are, currently, led by a bunch of idiots! Perhaps Sarah Palin will save us all.
Michael
Sarah is for “kill t’em all”, and is supporting this war with the “neocons”
Oh please.
Where exactly do you get off accusing Palin of wanting to “Kill t’em all”?
And which neocons are pushing this conflict onto us now?
Oh right…Boooosh! Yea we can get him out of office, but we are stuck with his facist policies- right?
Tool.
I’m Sure you have a link or a quote, right?
Yeah…didn’t think so. You idiots never do.
(Realizing I’m feeding a troll, but…)
1. The “newest” aircraft deployed is the Eurofighter Typhoon- in RAF service. Next newest is the Dassault Rafale’- operated by the Armee de L’Air. The AC-130 Spectre, A-10, F-15E, etc., in U.S. service are designs dating to over forty years ago, that have been in service almost that long. At least check your references, MC.
2. As for new warships, let me know when the U.S. navy gets some. Other than the Virginia and Seawolf-class SSNs, the Navy hasn’t been getting new hulls for almost a decade- and none are programmed by Obama, either. What we sent were the standing forces in the Med. Again, references, Mademoiselle.
3. Obama followed France & the UK’s lead to keep faith with his own dogma, i.e. that the U.S. must become “internationalist”, “unexceptional” and “European”. You should be shouting Hosannas- an American President has “seen the light” of superior Euro-reasoning and Euro-morality.
The fact that it shows all the indications of being a complete FUBAR is an inevitable consequence of actions based on dogmas rather than what the old Soviet Red Army used to accurately define as “objective conditions”. Which is an old story with “enlightened European realpolitik”, and American “progressives”.
Have a nice day.
cheers
eon
uh
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Typhoons_Libya_debut_seen_as_sales_boost_999.html
http://defensetech.org/2011/03/25/is-a-lack-of-secure-comms-keeping-the-f-22-out-of-libya-fight/
(Realizing I’m feeding a troll, but…)
Hmm should I stay away because it’s a american blog ?
sorry, the NET isn’t your propriety, and as far as trolling, I’m as old as you on PJM !
blah blah blah
Wow! You really painted us as a bunch of murderous, opportunistic wretches with that scree. You are almost as anti-American as our own president.
Which you should have kept in mind when you lost yours.
Lolly pops in !
The whole middle east is in turmoil and are killing one another, that’s bad? Why shouldn’t we and our allies join in, attrition is a good thing.
You seem to be projecting here, Marie. It is France that is demonstrating the deadly capabilities of its Rafale jet for the first time. This jet was developed in France but so far no country outside of France has purchased any. What is worse, orders from the French military are less than originally anticipated. Without some foreign sales, this might be the end of the French military aircraft industry. Now that these planes have blown some stuf up and killed some people, the chances of foreign sales are much improved.
One other consideration is the strain that the destruction of Libya’s oil facilities would have on Italy which receives about half of its oil from Libya. The strain on Italy’s strugling economy would also be exacerbated by hoards of Libyan refugees. If Italy were pushed by these forces into a government default on the debts it owes to French banks, some of those banks could go under with harsh consequences for the French economy.
Make no mistake. Gadafi is a psychopathic tyrant and I am happy to see him dead or deposed. In my view the best possible outcome of this escapade would be for France to establish a neo-colonial dominion over Libya for 50 years or so. Sort of Algeria II. The original Algeria is not that bad for a Muslim country. Libya would benefit from a few decades of rule by a government that is not insane.
“If Italy were pushed by these forces into a government default on the debts it owes to French banks”
Italy’s debt is mainly owned by Italians, but Greece, Portugal are of our concern (as of the Germanz, the Brits…)
“This jet was developed in France but so far no country outside of France has purchased any. What is worse, orders from the French military are less than originally anticipated. Without some foreign sales, this might be the end of the French military aircraft industry. Now that these planes have blown some stuf up and killed some people, the chances of foreign sales are much improved.”
Might be because the Americans imposed and bribed theirs to alliees first, and more than we could make it, and to EUropean NATO nations too. Though he Emirate are going to buy Rafales, uh, they don’t need your chinese money, t’em !
But see who benefitted the most of this air show:
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Typhoons_Libya_debut_seen_as_sales_boost_999.html
Libya a french colony? hmmm tell that to the Italians, the Germanz, the Brits, the Spanish, the Russians, the Rebels… and above all, the Turks !
Sure Kadhafi must be outed, we have no other alternative left !
“The US went into the Coalition, because they decided to participate to the Air Show, there’s new models to show:…”
Marie Claude,
With all due respect, I have read both your links and found no indication of any such thing. Unless you were being whimsical because of the closeness of the date to April 1 (A possibility I no doubt should not exclude!) I do not see how you can arrive at such a conclusion. But I do find it interesting that you agree with VDH that this intervention into Libya’s affairs is destined to be a disaster. Knowing what a patriot you are, I would otherwise expect you to try to give France total credit for this rather than trying to downplay her responsibility were it otherwise.
I was a bit sarcastic on VDH, since he made a fuss on us in NRO with our supposed appetite for oil.
I want that the coalition wins the war, we have no other alternative left, Kadhafi alive, and or free, will be a hell for all of us
VDH: Oh heck, Qaddaffi is a really bad guy so of course he’s got to go. Yeah, no Yankee boots on the ground except maybe there’s maybe some there already, those mean nasty CIA types and maybe some few SOF types too, so Libya isn’t going to become an Iraq, unless George W. Bush has totally screwed with Obama’s control over things.
Yet, Syria is not an issue now, Assad the Younger is a real reformer, as our Secretary of State declares, and Assad’s only using his police powers to put down the Syrian protesters so that’s Okie Dokie with Obama’s team. After all, Syria is also a close ally with that other great Mideastern country, Iran, which also uses considerable restraint to manage its protesters, with apparent approval of the USA’s current administration. Finally, everything is under control as Obama is in full control of our government, not that Cowboy Bush.
Yep, the Obama Doctrine is crystal clear to everyone and yes it might now be we’ve gone back in time to 1938, that wonderful year before everything went poof.
On the other hand, after taking a deep breath of pure oxygen, Obama’s doctrine doesn’t make sense at all. However, all we can do is hope the damage doesn’t get too wide spread and that our country can pick up and carry on.
I have to apologize for my feeble attempt at satire because I really want to scream and tear out my own hair except that won’t make sense.Lastly, even Obama knows he can’t really surrender to Qaddaffi because even some of his Socialist Party Stalwarts would object to that, maybe.
So the Obama Doctrine is:
Killing protestors / rebels with guns and artillery = okay.
Killing protestors / rebels with aircraft = bad.
Unless we’re doing it, in which case reverse the two.
Well, let’s be clear: Rice, Clinton, and Powers jumped the shark with an amazing lack of information/understanding of the situation on the ground in Eastern Libya. We may also recall that another Democrat did something similar, i.e., started small with “advisers” on the ground in 1961 so that Camelot looked good, powerful, “in the know”, and “capable”, despite youth.
For this one, the 0 can’t blame Bush. He can’t afford the war either politically or economically, especially if, as I believe is inevitable, it goes badly for him. We know he has “boots on the ground” since his ‘secret’ insertion of CIA assets is now public knowledge. Because there seems to be little cohesion among the “rebels” it is only a matter of time, probably a very short matter of time, before one of the “rebel” forces decides their compatriots in Iraq had a good idea and starts hitting the American, British, and French with IEDs.
Another factor was simple hubris.
Like her analogue, President Warrick, in John Ringo’s “The Last Centurion” (if you haven’t read it, I strongly recommend that you do), The Hill and her kaffeeklatch (Samantha Powers and Susan Rice- not to be confused with the other Rice, Condoleeza, who has an actual working brain and, more importantly, uses it) were in full-on I-Am-Woman-Hear-Me-Roar mode, backed up by a metrosexual President who is, let’s face it, a blithering idiot. (The speech he gave Tuesday night has proven that rather conclusively, I think.) The only contrary voices were the SecDef, Gates (never the brightest button even in GWB’s administration), and the JCS- all of whom had d**ks and were therefore Wrong By Definition.
As a result, the decision was made based on dogmas, not facts. The result was pretty much a foregone conclusion.
This Charlie Fox proves two things rather conclusively;
1. Those who wish The Hill had been elected POTUS twenty-eight months ago can stop pining. To all intents and purposes where foreign policy is concerned, she is the President now. And we have learned exactly what happens when that infamous 3 AM phone call comes through.
2. The Actual Kind Of Sort Of Chief Executive has been shown to be a bumbling fool in addition to being an egotistical narcissist with zero actual job-related skills. This is actually a good thing; consider how much trouble we would be in if someone as radically anti-American, anti-Western, anti-civilization, and anti-reality as Obama is, in his position, were actually competent at achieving his objectives.
Sometimes you need to be thankful for small mercies.
cheers
eon
Until CNN gets the intel broadcast on cable to our National Security Advisor, we’ll remain in the dark.
Obama thought his “experience” with dealing with Hosni Mubarak would make it easier to deal with Ghadaffi by showing how ‘powerful’ he is now, and he could ignore Libya until it went away.
Erm, the advisers in ‘Nam started as 500 under Eisenhower. Then 5000 with JFK. Then, well, Johnson.
George W. Obama – the newest Neocon.
I would only change that to “Oilbama” and I think you have it, old boy!
With Major League Baseball underway, maybe Barry ‘Oil-Can’ Obama will stick – lol
Check your spelling – it’s ‘neocomm’ ;-)
The NCAA bracket picks mark the point when the last vestige of Obama’s illusion was stripped clean. After that he was plain to see. Then Acting President Hill took over. She proved just as barren of wisdom as her husband, but without the charm. The world has gone mad, the Country is in imbecile’s hands (frankly most Republicans are almost as bad),and I don’t think there is enough liquor to numb me to it.
There is almost unanimous opinion that Muammar Qadhafi is an unfit ruler, a megalomaniacal tyrant who has been responsible for the deaths of many innocents, Libyans, Americans, and others, his heinous acts being a characteristic feature of his existence for the last 40 years. Most of us, regardless of political orientation, would prefer that he go to another planet, if not to hell.
However, Obama has completely disregarded the UN Charter, as well as the United States Constitution, and Federal Law, in ordering an attack by our armed forces on Libya.
Qadhafi is currently the de facto leader of the “Libyan Arab Jamahiriya”, the name by which Libya is listed as a member of the United Nations. Libya was actually a member of the UN Human Rights Commission until very recently, a fact that clearly and shamefully demonstrates the hypocritical posturing of that agency, if not of the UN itself.
The United Nations Charter, in Chapter I (entitled “Principles”), Article 2, Paragraph 7 states,
“Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; …”
Although the Charter allows for various actions, including military force, against a member state, it clearly limits those to situations in which there is aggression directed toward another sovereignty, and is not applicable to internal struggles.
United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 authorized the no-fly zone, economic sanctions, asset freeze, etc. against a member nation that is by all accounts engaged in efforts to suppress an internal rebellion. This action by member states, including the United States, appears to have been taken in violation of the fundamental principles of the UN, as stated in its charter. Obama hid behind this resolution to justify his actions in joining the attack on Libya.
The United States’ participation, by launching missiles and aircraft against Libya, is an act of war. The United States Constitution specifies that the power to declare war is vested in the Congress, not in the President. President Obama, by ordering the U.S. military into action against the recognized government of Libya, committed an act of war without the declaration or authorization of Congress. His flimsy justification that it was necessary to act quickly is belied by the several days he dithered over a decision, and the time spent gaining cover from the UN, during which there was ample time to approach Congress.
The President as Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces certainly has inherent power to act in an emergency to defend the country against attack. Not only is that power implicit in the Constitution, but it has been explicitly defined by Congress as well, in the War Powers Act, that states the conditions under which the President should act independent of Congress’ authorization.
The engagement of our military forces was ordered by President Obama in violation of federal law (50 U.S.C. §1541–1548 – War Powers Act), that permits the President to take action without a Congressional declaration of war only when he has specific statutory authorization, or when there exists “a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.” (See §1541 for this exact wording). The “60 days to report” often quoted by talking heads applies only to an action that was legal to begin with, and Obama’s was not.
President Obama is manifestly aware of this restriction, which he publicly supported as a Senator, and his violation was not a matter of ignorance, but a deliberate decision to ignore the law, almost certainly because he would have faced heavy political resistance in the Senate, had he done so. As Senator, Joe Biden declared that a president who attacked another country that was not attacking us should be impeached, and that he (Biden) would move for impeachment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adpa5kYUhCA
Even if it’s “the right thing to do”, the President can’t do it, if its illegal and un-Constitutional. The downside is that, if Obama were impeached (and convicted), the Vice-President would assume the office of President (Biden).
VDH:
The tipping point on these “economies” was the inability of governments to overcome the escalating world-wide price of grain, which rose beyond the comfort level of the Arab-on-the-street. Numerous news reports mentioned food shortages in various cities less than a month preceding the riots referenced here.
There is a grain shortage because Al Gore and his Eco-buddies have been using all the grain to produce fuel. Everything that clown touches turns to crap.
Perhaps it’s a long-term cunning plan, to use “green energy” as an excuse to turn a lot of food into fuel and so drive up the price of food in retaliation for the oil price hikes from OPEC. Maybe the whole ‘warming’ was just the propaganda that made our country do such a silly thing before the world, a world that wasn’t aware of the consequences…certainly the despots of the Middle East, secure in their overpriced oil, don’t seem to have thought of it.
The Three Graces?
More like The Three Gracies to a George Burns Obama.
My apologies to the late George Burns for the comparison.
(Although didn’t people think George was some sort of G-d too?)
(Although didn’t people think George was some sort of G-d too?)
No – he just played one on TV…….
Send in the clowns? No need to, there already here. Alec Baldwin, Susan Sarandon, Code Pink, Cindy Sheehan….where are you????
the drones and useful idiots are getting conflicting signals from their queen and are buzzing aimlessly waiting for the marching orders
Mirror mirror on my wall, how do I prevent my fall?
The Three Graces, Dr. Hanson? Methinks you may have selected the wrong literary metaphor to illustrate Obama’s belated entrance into the Libyan tragedy . . . especially reflecting upon Samantha Powers’ pronouncement of Tuesday that Obama was the catalyst for ALL of the recent democratic uprisings throughout the Middle East . . . to wit:
First Witch: All hail, Macbeth! hail to thee, Thane of Glamis!
Second Witch: All hail, Macbeth! hail to thee, Thane of Cawdor!
Third Witch: All hail, Macbeth! that shalt be king hereafter.
I know, I know, it’s an insult to witches.
“By declaring their humanitarian fides and getting ahead of America in public concern over “genocide,” the Europeans would force the U.S. hand: if Obama did not act, he would look weak and de facto cede traditional American moral leadership to an ascendant Europe; if Obama did, he would do so in response to European initiatives, and end up with the worst of both worlds: shamed into providing 90% of the muscle while ceding the credit of a “sure” win to Sarkozy and Cameron. Europe, then, read Obama perfectly.”
I disagree. I think Obama simply did not have the backbone to call the European’s bluff. The European’s are NOT “ascending” anywhere, accept to bankruptcy. They had neither the military forces nor the stomach to take out Gaddafi alone. If the did, they would have done it. If what you say is true, then Obama is dumber than he looks. If Obama simply did nothing, losing “moral leadership” would have meant little to the American public, which does NOT want to get involved in yet another Middle Eastern civil war.
And can we PLEASE stop calling what Gaddafi is trying to do “genocide!” It is NOT genocide. Genocide is the mass killing of a certain ethnic group or religious group. This is a CIVIL WAR and Gaddafi is trying to kill the other side in that civil war, regardless of who they are or what tribe they’re from. Now the losing side in this civil war may suffer huge losses, but that is NOT genocide. We have now picked a side in this civil war simply because the British and the French need the oil. How ironic it is that Obama, the guy who once screamed that the war in Iraq was all about “oil,” is now fighting another war for oil. Amazing.
the original project was to protect Benghazi population from beeing crashed by Kadhafi’s tanks and planes, like he did he would make it !
The no fly-zone was promoted by Cameron first, the French were reluctant to such a operation and would have preferred bombing selected targets. Then Cameron lobbied Obama for accepting the UN resolution, and it wasn’t yet question that the Americans would become part of it, suddenly Hilary announced the fact after the UN vote.
Of course not it wasn’t yet a “genocide”, but it could have been one without the strikes on Kadhafi’s tanks in Benghazi suburbs
The problem is that the whole thing has become too big to work properly, now the job must be finished, cuz Kadhafi will be a hell for the westernie !
I mostly agree but you avoid the Obama Administration’s reluctance to admit the essentially radical Islamist nature of the rebels. The reasons are intertwined. Americans understandably will balk at an alliance with al-Qaeda. Obama’s left-wing foolishness propels him to attribute positives to those who hate the West and to undermine those who do not pose a threat to it. Along these same lines, Obama’s delusional confidence in his ability to persuade leads him to believe he can sit down with the new bin Ladens, reach accomodation, and then get the Philistines he rules on board with the project. That this might be about things as icky as oil, religious fanaticism and, gasp, something other than Obama has never dawned on him.
We have intervened blindly in an old school European imperial project that sets a faction of ignorant, Third World Islamists against a decaying and neutered dictator. I have no doubt Obama understands the unsavory nature of the freedom fighters he has aided, and am equally certain he has no clue that these forces will not be harnessed by his brilliance and charm. Frankly, and we seldom discuss it, we have as president a mentally disturbed individual who was the product of an absent father and a series of castrating, self-involved women. What should have been a couch trip has become a (to him) well-earned promotion to Commander in Chief. This should be parody but the United States will be lucky to survive his insanity.
VDH, you’ve noted, “Unfortunately, Obama has no principled or strategically logical foreign policy.”
Each word in that sentence is 1) important, 2) accurate and 3)extremely alarming for thinking Americans.
Meanwhile, the bottom line is evident:
“He would get credit…For Obama…all that…was too good to pass up…so he voted more sorta yes than just present…[W]e, in fact, will see – a messy end to a messy beginning.”
The “messy” part should concern us all. It’s very clear who will be doing the heavy lifting, blamed for any snafus, and paying for this travesty, long after Obama has claimed his credit, lost interest and turned his “laser focus” to other pressing matters (barackets, campaigning, golf, carbon-footprint-exempt vacation jaunts hither and yon, etc.).
Need I say it? He’s thrown us in the deep end of the pool, and no, those aren’t swim shoes on our feet.
the only problem is the word “foreign”. change that to “personal” and everything makes perfect sense.
First, he craves chaos. That’s when his greatest strength, shameless lying, can be best put to use.
Second, ETAB isn’t quite correct. Little lenin can do some planning. He always plans out who to blame and how to take the credit ahead of time. That’s it. The action or policy is meaningless to him. But he darn well makes sure that he won’t be blamed and can get the credit.
Third, he loves to stir the pot, any pot. It has worked for 47 years now, why should he think it won’t work for the next 47? In this case, the entire focus has been on an insignificant and immmaterial war with an impotent nut on one side and a few hundred impotent rebels on the other side. Meanwhile, little lenin is piling up debt at the rate of about 5 billion dollars a day, and you hardly hear a peep about it.
Precisely. Churn is the only policy strategy Obama has/knows.
And yes, like you, I suspect the first question Obama asks in every situation is: “If this goes south, who’s going to fall on their sword? ‘Cause it sure isn’t gonna be me.”
Victor DH,
You say Obama probably had no idea who the rebels were and probably thought they were “Westernized intellectuals” like in Egypt and Tunisia. First, I don’t think the rebels in those countries were “Westernized”, whether that means they like movies like High Noon and Blazing Saddles, or they have a fine appreciation of Aristotle and Thomas Jefferson. Personally, I don’t think there is much Western Appreciation in the Middle East at all, except possibly in Iran. More to the point, I don’t think Obama is seeking Aristotle and Jefferson loving populations. He dislikes every good idea the West has produced.
You seem to think Obama is a goofy guy who seeks good, but does so incompetently. Maybe he is a bad, calculating guy who very competently is attacking Western culture. Wouldn’t it make sense for a guy whose pedigree is that of the political science departments of our most elite universities? Where is the hatred for the West greater than at Harvard? Perhaps only in certain Mediterranean cultures, the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan. So, I say he is seeking ways to help those who hate the West. There are lots of choices now and lots of work to be done in the land of the emerging Caliphate.
Kent @ 17 says to VDH:
“You seem to think Obama is a goofy guy who seeks good, but does so incompetently. Maybe he is a bad, calculating guy who very competently is attacking Western culture.”
I couldn’t agree more. But it’s like like talking to the wall.
Ann Coulter has it right. In her column today, “Obama Lied, Kids Died,” she writes “. . . since Mubarak stepped down, the driving force in the new government is the Muslim Brotherhood. America is worse off because Mubarak stepped down, which was Obama’s exact policy objective.”
LIBYA, THE FRENCH CONNECTION AND THE SPECTER OF VIETNAM
If there’s any lesson that this country should have learned from the French it’s this: DON’T FOLLOW THEM INTO WAR. The last time we did we got the long, losing military Odyssey called Vietnam and spent years at enormous cost in lives and treasure trying to clean up their mess. And here we go again with history repeating itself in a different part of the world with the French spearheading a war* against the despot of a former European colony and the US blindly following suit…….
Click my name to continue reading this widely linked piece on my top townhall.com blog.
hmmm Viet Nam, we didn’t dragg the US into that war, in the contrary that were the US who subsidied us to make tha war against the “Communists” there, you know the Viets… American warfare advisors were already in Saigon.
France was broke after WW2, with no organized army anymore, how could we have afford a new war, mainly fought with the foreign legion (with 60% of foreigners then, lots were former Wehrmacht’s) !
People in France didn’t care of such a far away colony, that’s why after Dien Dien Phu deteat, were the Viet forces were 10 times more numerous, we gave up ! and America took the relay !
Give me a break! This is revisionism of absolutely the most preposterous kind!
FDR and Stilwell were adamant that the French not re-acquire Indochina after the war. Inso china’s Japanese troops were taken into custody by the (Nationalist) Chinese, but in 1946 De Gaulle persuaded Chiang – behind Truman’s back- to hand off to French troops. Already General Leclerc arrived in Saigon on October 9 1945, with him was French Colonel Massu’s March Group
like or not, it’s with US money that the French fought in Viet Nam
“viet minh japanese occupation vietnam”
http://tinyurl.com/3wa5kac
“France was dead broke after World War Two. France sought and received financial help from the United States, which increased year by year. By 1954 America was paying 67 percent of France’s costs to defend Vietnam against Communist guerrillas.”
http://tinyurl.com/3t9xgkf
Vietnam was a French colony, and the Freench wanted their property back after the Japanese were defeated. The French absolutely wanted Vietnam. All of those rubber plantations were feeding the big French tire makers. The problem was, the Vietnamese looked into their colonizer’s eyes and saw weakness, and began to fight foreign rule. France was not in Vietnam for no reason; they were stipping the country blind. The US never had any colonizing interest in Vietnam, all we wanted to do was to stop the Communist march through Asia.
That Obama would continue the Neocon agenda on the international stage can’t have come as a surprise to too many people, but it’s shocking and embarrassing to watch as all you hawks become doves.
VDH: “More importantly, the “rebels” seemed like they would capture Tripoli within just a few days.”
Military action on our part began after the rebels – not “rebels” in scare-quotes, they’re rebelling, they’re rebels – had been pushed back, were concentrated almost entirely in Benghazi and would, “within just a few days,” have been exterminated. And not just the “Anti-War” Left but you also would have stood back and let it happen.
“Military action on our part began after the rebels..had been pushed back, were concentrated almost entirely in Benghazi and would, “within just a few days,” have been exterminated.”
That’s my recollection too.
I think you’re right that the military intervention started when the rebels were on the ropes.
Still, it is possible that the various world gov’ts were moving slowly (how long does it take to get the key people to sign up? how long does it take to insert the CIA and SOF people? how long does it take to schedule a vote in the UN?) so possibly the initiative began at a time when victory seemed to be at hand.
So does that mean if one is terrorizing, they’re terrorists? Strange new rules, here.
Try that again, make it make sense this time.
No. I would have supported the effort had it been more timely and legally approved in Congress.
This is an incompetent commander. We now have al Qeada fighting on our side in Libya and the Muslim Brotherhood taking over a former ally.
And yet your big defense of this is that all of “hawks” are hypocrits when, all of sudden you are a dove turned hawk??!
I think thou dost project too much.
I think thou dost assume too much, mate. “And yet your big defense of this is that all of [sic] “hawks” are hypocrits [sic] when, [sic] all of sudden [sic] you are a dove turned hawk??!” – no, my “big defense” is quite clearly in the fact that Benghazi and the rest of Libya would right now be the scene of mass torture and slaughter by the agents of a tyrant, except we stopped that from happening when the rebels were on the brink of being wiped out. How much more “timely” would you have liked?
Obama, apparently very uncomfortable wearing his CinC hat, and with a SecDef who is more comfortable in an academic environment, hasn’t a clue as to using military force.
Basically (very!) the use of military force has to be hard, fast and precise. There must be an obtainable goal (not just “humanitarian” feel good self-righteousness coveted by liberals). The highly-touted “exit stategy” is ludicrous. In a MILITARY action, the “exit” is accomplished when the enemy is dead and his equipment lies in smoking ruins.
All veterans know that we’ve had boots on the ground (yes, CIA guys wear “boots”, too) when the first missiles were deployed. One does not simply fire weapons randomly without someone marking and adjusting.
Obama’s lame speech was disingenuous and insincere. As usual. Victor David Hanson was spot on about Hillary et al. They thought they had an easy win which would propel their boss into the ranks of a great military leader. Obama isn’t ANY kind of leader, much to the USA’s chagrin. Obama is a Prince of Fools, support by the fools who fall for his inane platitudes.
Forget an exit strategy, we’re fighting a war without an entrance strategy.
Maybe it is time to invoke Section-4 of the 25th Amendment.
But there is one problem; with Biden as VP, we will
probably have to invoke it twice.
You are referring to:
Section 4.
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.
It is much faster than impeachment isn’t it?
So if it is invoked and Biden has to be replaced who would be the next in line, Pelossi? :-)
Speaker Boehner.
VDH: You do not mention Germany at all. I haven’t seen a decent analysis of the German position anywhere else either. They seem to be conspicuous by their absence and a general lack of curiosity on the part of the press.
No two ways about it. If Putin is scratched, Germany says “ouch!”
Putin is against intervention therefore Germany must either agree with him or have no opinion. Otherwise, he’ll step on the GAZPROM pipeline again.
I keep waiting for Obama to start referring to himself in the their person. I think it would just frame his narcissism perfectly.
And at least it would make me chuckle instead of moan.
Germany is on Moscow line, cuz of Gazprom, which she owns at 40%, so no interferrence was the leitmotiv, at the moment Libya unrests benefits to Putin !
VDH:
While one can assume that Obama has followed some form of logic in his decision to go to war with Libya, the more likely explanation for Obama’s actions is probably quite simple.
Obama was faced with a decision he did not want to make, and he chose to delegate his responsibility to the UN. I do not think it is more complicated than that.
The rhetoric that has ensued has an been attempt to justify his actions in the absence of his leadership. Obama tells us that “I will not allow” genocide, etc…, but that is his owm rationalization of a decision he never made. How could Obama, by his own definition, be acting as unilaterally (‘I’) as he says when he did not act prior to the UN’s decision?
There is nothing complex about Obama’s thinking on Libya, it is simply his abdication of responsibility, followed by a wholly self-serving explanation for his actions. This episode is evidence that Obama has lost interest in being president, because he has resorted to quick, mindless action when contemplation was required. Why contemplate the consequences of his actions any further, when he can resort to easy, rhetorical exegeses of his actions?
My guess is Qaddafi is feeling pretty good right now. The rag tag rebels are on the run and Obama has promised no boots on the the ground. That pesky humanitarian bombing is an annoyance but hunkered in his bunker, the Mad Dog of Libya can survive. He will return trimphant when Obama and the trio of harpies that pushed him into this humanitarian bombing,move on to another project designed to boost The One’s re-election. Obama will have to nuance his way into making this debacle of victory. (Don’t you love the overuse of ‘nuance’ when it comes to explaining all things Obama?) But I suspect, with his loyal handmaidens in the mainstream media, he will be able to pull this off.
Obama WILL write a book after he leaves the White House.
It shall be titled “My Four Year Nightmare”.
Moochelle will write one too: “What? Me Proud?”
Foreign policy and wars are to Obama a distraction from his real priority, namely waging domestic war on this Republic. Note how all of the media are pushing out stories of how Obama was reluctantly forced into taking this action in Lybia against his instincts. When, not if, this idiotic war in Lybia degenerates into another drawn out Middle East morass, Obama will be swift to throw Clinton, Powers, and or Rice under the bus when the time is ripe and will disclaim any responsibilty. This action in Lybia has zero value from a strategic military standpoint.
All of the uprisings in the Middle East country have a common thread, which is extreme hatred of Israel. This hatred of Israel is also shared by the Obama Administration. Anyone with one iota of common sense realizes that all of these uprisings will end with the installation of radical Islamic regimes dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the Great Satan, the United States. Obama and his marxist minions are making a deadly miscalculation by thinking that they can reach accomodations with the Islamic radicals.
VDH: “Even thought[FB, though] Qaddafi was a “revolutionary” anti-American figure, and even though his family and minions were intertwined with Western universities and intellectuals…”
Indeed they were accepted by society and institutions here. I was astonished to hear from FoxNews this AM that Daffy’s son somehow was allowed to attend the U.S. National War College. And now he is, and they are, well-known as murderers of innocents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_War_College
Don’t forget the most powerful weapon 0 has at his disposal:
The Media.
The mess will be whitewashed and presented to the sheeple in a completely digestible form.
The lemmings will continue their march.
Absolutely true, GoodOne.
Obama as Frank Abagnale is asked to perform surgery as he pretends to have the skills and training…and sweats it out as he passes the scalpel to the UN, to France, to anyone else…then does a lot of fast talking about how HE saved the patient.
He isn’t voting “present”…he is ditching school and then glad-handing the fawning media so that he can be elected valedictorian, not on any actual achievement, but on promoting junk food, candy, and looser dress codes…so the teeny-boppers think he’s cool.
All that junk for adults…are socialist candy giveaways. This real life stuff, handling bad guys in the MidEast…Obama has to fake his way through and pass it off to the UN or Europeans. Then let the lapdog media give him all the credit. They propped him up, refused to vet him, cover his tracks and faux pas, and build an entire revisionist history for him as it unfolds.
Nobody gets hurt in this except for possibly the U.S. and Israel…and nobody on the Leftist team gives a damn about either of those two anyway.
Obama as Frank Abagnale!
That is freekin’ brilliant.
Frank Abagnale!!? To make that comparison is disrespectful to Abagnale’s ability to deceive, bad man that he was – “Oil-Can” Obama’s charade is very see through.
And Abagnale reformed and used his insights in a useful manner that assisted in stopping others from being duped. He made good.
BHO is a lightweight by comparison, and what indeed are his redemptive qualities!?
One of O’s most powerful of all is O herself.
Thanks VDH.
Puke. That was my reaction to that so-called “speech”. The disingenuous tone and feigned compassion drip like light sweet crude oil fresh from the sands.
And Harry Reid says “We the People” are the extreme ones……
Puke again.
“Then there were Hillary Clinton, Susan Rice, and Samantha Powers who saw Libya as a postmodern goldmine. Think of it: an apparent cakewalk victory; restoring Obama credibility after the opportunistic and late endorsements in Egypt and Tunisia:…”
I keep hearing this. That Hillary, et al pushed this with an eye toward building or restoring Obama’s credibility. I don’t believe it for a second. Hillary’s motives always benefit Hillary first. Anything else is coincidental.
In this case, I don’t think either of them will benefit.
I don’t see a compelling reason for being in there, but the emerging situation in the ME is even more difficult for a President to pretend, as they all have had to, that he has a coherent policy.
Yes, never let a crisis go unwasted and Obama-bashing is the coin of the realm around here, but the fact that the right was so divided about whether to intervene or not, and would be after Obama’s throat even more right now, had he NOT gone in, makes VDH’s “analysis of what Obama lacks somewhat marginal.
Of course, everyone is now free to speculate on what this all means, but what would Ronald Reagan have done if there was a rebellion against Khadaffi back when he dropped a few missiles on him?
Fair enough, Dwight, until you once again showed your left hand with this bit of completely irrelevant history posted in a feeble attempt to smear past and present conservatives:
“…but what would Ronald Reagan have done if there was a rebellion against Khadaffi back when he dropped a few missiles on him?”
Perhaps you forgot, Dwight, to add “Just sayin’” at the end.
Pick your President of the last fifty years and you will find fiddlin’ and diddlin, as opposed to clear policy. Some fiddle and diddle after talking tough, some after mush-mouthing it. Even GWB who jumped at Afghanistan and Iraq with mixed results, HAD to fiddle and diddle on Iran and N. Korea. I don’t think that shows a particular leftward revelation on my part, but I do know the audience here. ALL those Presidents were roasted for what they did or did not do.
Having a clear plan of action (in his own and his generals’ minds, at least) beforehand, as I suspect Reagan would have had, would make all the difference.
There can be a debate about what would have been better to do, to intervene or not; but there can be no question that jumping in just to keep up with Cameron and Sarkozy is criminally foolish. The one thing we know about the operation is that Obama insists on (the pretense, let’s hope it only is) passing off US leadership of an effort using our men and materiel.
No one could ever have advocated for such a silly plan. No one could have imagined it, before now. That things go wrong in war–sure, what else? But to plan in such a ridiculous and childish “as long as it’s not like Bush” way –?
Come to think of it, why haven’t we heard from the man from Plains, the Smiling Eunuch, Jimmeh? At least Ted Kennedy has an excuse. And what about AlGore; he seems to be in hibernation. John Kerry has been outspoken, but I think he’s just angling for another Purple Heart (he served in Viet Nam, do you know?). Why is it that so many liberal luminaries have kept their mouths shut over the developing fiasco? Is Huffington devoting herself to wedding announcements? If hypocrisy was marketable, we could eliminate the national date in a fortnight.
Ack. I just read most of the article. YEs I commented before I read the whole thing. Sigh.
Mr Peanut is currently in Havana, hobnobbing with his “old friend” Fidel.
The truly bizarre thing is that President Obama has handed Gaddafi control over his own reelection.
Remember – “days, not weeks.”
Never thought I’d ever see a President draw a bead on his own foot with an AC-130H Spectre…..
Gosh, I hope he remembers to take that foot out of his mouth first. Or not, whatever.
I just saw an interesting thing posted over at Instapundit about our oil imports. In particular to Libya, we pull less than one percent of an import form there. It’s the Europeans, I do believe, that are the far larger importers from there. Europe imports about 85 percent of Libya’s oil produced, from what little I’ve looked into it. What total percent of their imported this is, I do not know. This does make me believe that this isn’t a coordinated action at all. I am thinking Obama may not have gone to the UN or NATO for a unified action, but the other way around. It also may be the reason it’s supposed to be a NATO or UN mission now. Europe lacks the will, and basically the money, to fund a war, and can probaly avoid the perception they are creating war. They can then place their nice, socialist, liberal selves as just supporting an ally while saying, “It’s those war monering Americans again.” The result is to convince Obamanition to use American resources and lives to secure their interests, not ours. Just a quick observation from the outside. There may be intelligence I am unaware of. I just wonder how long it will take the military aid we give to wind up in say Afghanistan, and not in NATO or even the Afghan government.
“… Europe lacks the will, and basically the money, to fund a war…”, and just imagine if it was being lead by the Spanish, Portuguese and Irish “military”.
Do those countries have military forces!!?
(My apologies to the Irish given it’s my heritage, but ‘taint such a good situation there at the moment.)
Part “1) the Europeans” was particularly excellent Mr. Hanson. But instead of it being another reason—among a myriad by now—of why Obama should not be reelected we should be view it as a troubling example of how easily Obama can be snookered. We have the better part of two years to go with this president and with the possibility during this time that other ‘friends’ of ours might try to pull the same thing.
“Graces” must be a euphemism for Harpies, but maybe that’s just me.
What particularly angers me is the pusillanimous response of our Congressional Republican leaders here.
The only “solution” is to KILL Khadaffi so that our “enemies” (al Qaida and the Muslim Brotherhood will have a foothold and probably CONTROL Libya’s oil? This is just crazy.
If that is our solution to a murdering maniac like Khadaffi, why didn’t we do it two months ago, two years ago, or when he blew up the Pan Am flight over Lockerbee? Three female progressive incompetents and an “I vote PRESENT” Commander in Chief are playing deadly games with our military.
Obama has been ignoring the Constitution here in the United States and now aciong in the manner of a dictator. At some point, there must be someone in our Congress who has the courage to stand up and say STOP.
The French and British certainly intervened in Libya for material purposes and not out of idealism, which has always been notably absent from their foreign policies.
They are now in control of the situation, apparently with our full consent.
Their aims are what will now determine future developments.
They wish to continue Western European access to Libyan oil.
Their concerns are as follows.
If Khaddafy is reduced to desperation he may, out of spite, attempt to destroy the oil facilities in Cyrenaica, which would be a self destructive act so long as he retains a chance of keeping some power. This can only be safely avoided by making it impossible for the rebels to take over Libya.
Since the politics and future policies of the rebels are quite unknown allowing them to assume a position of strength as opposed to their present dependency might prove a disastrous outcome and should also be avoided.
If the rebels, who actually seem to be in control of those facilities, and who would be self destructive to destroy them, were to be overrun by government loyalists, Khaddafy would very likely take revenge on the British and French for their efforts so far against him. and this too must be avoided.
The only solutions plausible to our allies then is a stalemate, albeit one in which the oil keeps flowing. A truce, partition of Libya or even a British-French (with Italy and perhaps others as well) protectorate over Cyrenaica would be the goals one could expect those powers to pursue.
Since the present administration has abdicated any role in directing this intervention, the traditional anti-Imperialism that has characterized our government for centuries, has apparently been abandoned by the Obama administration!
NO, NATO is, and Italians and Turks got a big part in the deal
“…a messy end to a messy beginning.”
So what? Another lofty speech and the messy end will be as clear, coherent, firm and unambiguous as the messy beginning.
Wait till the rebels finally win, with help from US bombers, special forces, and arms, and turn out to be El Quaida jihadists. Cant wait for Obama to explain how it was worth spending US treasure for that outcome. Kadaffy was bloodthirsty, and a little nuts, but at least he was fairly quiet recently on the terrorism front, and had already given up his nukes.
Now that I think of it, he probably wont try to justify it, he will just deny that they are really El Quaida terrorists.
If success is Quadaffy gone, dead or exile, and an at least a more benign government in Libya, what would be the effects of that on long term US interests?
Will we be seeing more, “Why them and not us?” complaints?
Will half baked weeny revolutions start up with the expectation of being bailed out?
Professor, your analysis is not just good – it is magnificent, far and away the best explained and best reasoned of anything I”ve read or seen on the subject. It deserves, but will not get, the widest possible circulation. The comments are the usual self-important preening: “I agree, but you missed an important point which I will now clarify for you” ….at great length.
How anyone could look at the footage of the alleged “rebel army”. with their weapons mounted like kayaks on 30-year old pick-ups and sedans, waving their AK’s, milling around like drivers blocked behind an accident, demonstrating no more order and less purpose than the Keystone Kops, and conclude that these brave “warriors” are motivated by “Twitter” and a desire to adopt western principles of freedom and democratic rule, baffles me. They look to me like rabble that wishes to get rid of tyranny but will happily accept Islamic theocracy.
Joining the ranks of the quibblers, I disagree with your concluding paragraph. We wimply followed the UN’s strategy. It isn’t working. We’re compounding a mess. Let’s just GET OUT.
Maybe you should have written They look to me like rabble that wishes to get
rid of tyrannyits hands on power ?The three Graces? Er, four if you count Kerry.
(stole that from LEX)
I live in a small city in the Finger Lakes of western NY and given we have a college within our borders, saw many “War is not the answer” signs scattered among Impeach Bush” and “which country is next?” signs when Bush invaded Iraq (with Congressional approval).
They are no longer around, these signs. Odd.
It’s not blood for oil when we do it
Odd indeed.
And let’s say they just haven’t had a chance to make the new signs yet, the where is anyone in highlighting the former head of human rights at the UN, Qadaffi, and his murderous ways – and we’re talking small children and innocents!!
An acquaintance at a major world news organization, when asked this question responded simply that, “it was reported”.
If this kind of bias and shamelessness occurred in other industries, there would be hell to pay.
My hypothesis about the consequences of this kind of disregard for the truth is that the industry that perpetuates these distortions has been transformed to its detriment and loss of power and finances, through the rise of dialogue and exchange through forums such as this, social media, and a conversation that can no longer be controlled by one organization or small group of people’s agenda.
I disagree.
What will happen is the rebels will be routed, the fighting will stop with Qaddaffi still in power, there will be nothing to bomb from the air, the UN will back away saying that the mandate was met, and Obama will stutter and tell us a bunch of lies about how victorious he was and how smartly he handled it and remind us that he promised a short war.
Obama has once again managed to further damage his credibility, display his weaknesses, and further convince other world leaders that he is easily manipulated. We can only hope that his foolishness has not ensnared America in yet another swamp that will continue to drain our resources and weaken our nation. The incompetence of this administration continues to be a most “clear and present danger” to the survival of the United States.
It is worse that you think. The Libyan war makes no sense (although we have a history with Gaddafi, who richly deserves ending up hanging by his heels like Mussolini). But that is not the point. Why would we empower Al-Queda fighters (who go into battle shouting “Allahu Ackbar!”)? The head of the provisional authority has admitted that the local Al-Queda affiliate is a significant element in the coalition. Gaddifi say the “rebels” are Al-Queda. Are we to believe that Gaddifi is entirely delusional when the coalition admits Al-Queda involvement? We are told that this is all being done purely to prevent a “humanitarian” disaster. But we have taken no action elsewhere in similar circumstances (in Yemen and Syria, where people are being shot down in the street). Let’s not even mention Iran, where Obama went weeks without even commenting on Basjid militia killing peaceful protesters. No, a bigger game is afoot. The war with Libya is mainly meant to set the predicte for the imposition of a “no-fly zone” on Israel when the PLO declares unilaterally its “Palestinian State” with UN blessing next fall. Consider the facts: Samantha Power, a prominent (but little known by the public), member of Obama’s National Security Council, has long blamed Israel for the lack of Middle Eastern peace. She recentlly said that the United States, to achieve a Palestinian State, has to be prepared to take bold and dramatic action on the ground. It also has to be prepared to alienate a “powerful and rich constituency” in United States politics. I wonder who she had in mind. Obama has now created the precedent of not going to Congress for authorization before taking military action. Hillary let the cat out of the bag the other day when she said that (1) if there is a “humanitarian” crisis, (2) the United States is the only power equipped to engage in the necessary military action, (3) and the mission has been blessed by international organizations like the UN or the Arab League, then you don’t have to go to Congress for authorization. Consider the implications of that for a moment. Since Congress is a friend of Israel, by-passing Congress is a necessary element of any such plan. So the PLO will declare unilaterally a state after a UN vote. Abbas has already said that when this happens, all Israeli “settlers” in the West Bank will be expelled. If Israel rejects the declaration of a Palestinian state on a unilateral basis (with such a state at war with Israel), Palestinian gangs, with the blessing of the UN and aflame with nationalism, will attack the “settlements.” If Israel tries to take any action to protect Israelis in the West Bank from getting Fogle-family treatment, the United States, because of an Israeli blockade and the resulting “humanitatian crisis” among the Palelstinians, will declare a “no-fly zone.” If the Israelis respond with ground action, the zone will be expanded to a “no-drive zone.” Ultimately, in the name of “preserving peace,” it may be expaneded to include Israeli airspace. This will all be presented by Obama as an “unpleasant necessity” to solve the Middle Eastern peace problem and “save Israel from itself” — the unfortunate action of a friend, like an intervention with Charlie Sheen. And remember, it was all set up by the Libyan war, because Gaddifi is such an easy target, an aging dictator who can be dismissed as “mentally unbalanced.” Obama and Hillary, both Soros creatures, have created this scene with the “Responsibility to Protect” doctrine, which justifies such “humanitarian” interventions.
I assume Obama will not provoke this crisis until after the election, so he can continue to pose as a “Friend of Israel” and gather thousands of votes of feckless liberal Jews. Will they be fooled again? Will their leftism trump their Judaism again?
The Libyan war makes perfect seance.
Foreign oil interests fund Clinton’s post-presidential charities/slush funds. BP has been a paymaster for Obama for years, now French and Italian oil companies will be on the hook to. Just as the Brazilian oil interests are being bought off now with import-export tax credits. In Libya it’s cruse missiles.
Don’t believe me? In 5-10 years check the donor list for the Obama library, Obama center and The Obama international charity. You can check Clintons donor list right now.
I only got to reading your post after making my own comment. Seems that we agree on many things.
Powers has been involved with Soros before entering the administration and must be in tune to his thinking. His Global Centre for Responsibility to Protect which is pushing this type of “Kinetic Action” has one of the doctrines founders, Gareth Evans, with close ties to Samantha Powers.
By the way if anyone is interested Hanan Ashrawi was involved in the group that set up Responsibility to Protect.
Evans who also sits Evans sits on othere boards with Soros, is also involved in the Clinton Global Initiative.
So here we have another Cabal at work.
Ah for the days of Tecumsuh Sherman, a man that studied war. Marie Claude you are somethingg the French should nerver be, boring.
Indeed a want to create a sense of chaos – but that’s often a characteristic of a borderline personality disorder, and I wouldn’t put that on the entire French population – that’s just Marie Claude.
Libyan rebels sold Hizballah and Hamas chemical shells
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report March 31, 2011, 11:24 AM (GMT+02:00) Tags: chemical weapons Hamas Hizballah Iran Libyan rebels
US Adm. James Stavridis
Senior Libyan rebel “officers” sold Hizballah and Hamas thousands of chemical shells from the stocks of mustard and nerve gas that fell into rebel hands when they overran Muammar Qaddafi’s military facilities in and around Benghazi, DEBKAfile’s exclusive military and intelligence sources report.
Word of the capture touched off a scramble in Tehran and among the terrorist groups it sponsors to get hold of their first unconventional weapons.
According to our sources, the rebels offloaded at least 2,000 artillery shells carrying mustard gas and 1,200 nerve gas shells for cash payment amounting to several million dollars.
US and Israeli intelligence agencies have tracked the WMD consignments from eastern Libya as far as Sudan in convoys secured by Iranian agents and Hizballah and Hamas guards. They are not believed to have reached their destinations in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, apparently waiting for an opportunity to get their deadly freights through without the US or Israel attacking and destroying them.
It is also not clear whether the shells and gases were assembled upon delivery or were travelling in separate containers. Our sources report that some of the poison gas may be intended not only for artillery use but also for drones which Hizballah recently acquired from Iran.
Tehran threw its support behind the anti-Qaddafi rebels because of this unique opportunity to get hold of the Libyan ruler’s stock of poison gas after it fell into opposition hands and arm Hizballah and Hamas with unconventional weapons without Iran being implicated in the transaction.
Shortly after the uprising began in the third week of February, a secret Iranian delegation arrived in Benghazi. Its members met rebel chiefs, some of them deserters from the Libyan army, and clinched the deal for purchasing the entire stock of poison gas stock and the price.
The rebels threw in a quantity of various types of anti-air missiles.
Hizballah and Hamas purchasing missions arrived in the first week of March to finalize the deal and arrange the means of delivery.
The first authoritative American source to refer to a Hizballah presence in Benghazi was the commander of US NATO forces Adm. James Stavridis. When he addressed a US Senate committee on Tuesday, March 29, he spoke of “telltale signs of the presence of Islamic insurgents led by Al-Qaeda and Hizballah” on the rebel side of the Libyan war. He did not disclose what they were doing there.
while I am still ambivalent about the R2P war on Qaddhafi, it should be noted that Qaddhafi laid siege to cities in the west. Cut off the water and electricity and telcom, like a modern-day Genghis Khan, to Misrata, Zawiya, and Zawara, a city of 40,000 Berbers near the Tunisian border. The last news about or from Zawara was March 15.
It was the sieges of these cities that was the tipping point.
Not that anyone in any media or any blog from left to right has focussed on what it means when a tyrant cuts off water and electricity to entire cities, something that does make Libya different.
I give Obama credit for mentioning this specific fact in both speeches, and hope someone somewhere is working on at least finding out if 40,000 Berbers in Zawara have already been murdered. I hope they all escaped into Tunisia.
Also, do some math. 6.5 million people that may include the 1.5 million migrant workers, in a country that was shipping 1.4 million barrels a day of light, sweet crude. The protests in Libya were NOT about the food/wheat price increases that have indeed generated considerable discontent in other Arab countries.
Obama has many faults on Libya, but cutting off the water to hundreds of thousands of people is a known known.
What if Obama had decided not to get involved? Would he have appeared weak or strong? He had two choices, he made one of them. Had he decided against attacking Libya it could have sent a new message to the Middle East. That we’re running out of patience with the hate that drives their societies and frankly, no longer give a damn. Kill each other, have a ball. Call me when you figure out your major malfunction.
By folding to pressure, he’s a follower, not a leader. He could fire Hillary and restore a portion of his manliness- but that’s not likely for a metero. Two years isn’t long enough for Barry to grow wings, so, rather than soar with eagles, we’ll trot with turkeys here on out.
Since Presidents have such ease deploying our military, shouldn’t they have a minimal exposure to a military academy? I don’t get this part. It’s like handing the keys to a Peterbuilt hauling doubles to a fourteen year old. Wouldn’t surprise me if reports from Libya read like the morning commute: “Semi with trailer laying on it’s side blocking the number 3 and 4 lanes. Expected opening in four hours.” “Also, Libya expected to re-open in days, not weeks.”
Beautiful Joe, Nothing quite like a rhetorical question to **ckem up eh?
The buck stops here. We are seeing what happens when the president does not understand this.
And now this -
Libyan rebels sold Hizballah and Hamas chemical shells
DEBKAfile Exclusive Report March 31, 2011, 11:24 AM (GMT+02:00) Tags: chemical weapons Hamas Hizballah Iran Libyan rebels
Senior Libyan rebel “officers” sold Hizballah and Hamas thousands of chemical shells from the stocks of mustard and nerve gas that fell into rebel hands when they overran Muammar Qaddafi’s military facilities in and around Benghazi, DEBKAfile’s exclusive military and intelligence sources report.
Word of the capture touched off a scramble in Tehran and among the terrorist groups it sponsors to get hold of their first unconventional weapons.
According to our sources, the rebels offloaded at least 2,000 artillery shells carrying mustard gas and 1,200 nerve gas shells for cash payment amounting to several million dollars.
US and Israeli intelligence agencies have tracked the WMD consignments from eastern Libya as far as Sudan in convoys secured by Iranian agents and Hizballah and Hamas guards. They are not believed to have reached their destinations in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, apparently waiting for an opportunity to get their deadly freights through without the US or Israel attacking and destroying them.
It is also not clear whether the shells and gases were assembled upon delivery or were travelling in separate containers. Our sources report that some of the poison gas may be intended not only for artillery use but also for drones which Hizballah recently acquired from Iran.
http://debka.com/article/20811/
Would it be too way out to suppose that Powers’ interest was using the opportunity of the Libyan uprising to test-run the “Responsibility to Protect” doctrine prior to applying it to the Israeli – Palestinian conflict when Israel counters Arab attacks to maintain the security of its citizens?
Yes it would.
I think this was all about preparing the way to appoint Hillary Clinton as Secretary of Defense when Gates retires. Another “first” for women! And we can probably look for John Kerry as her replacement at State. See his defense of the Libya operation in the WSJ.
Yikes!
More importantly, does Prof. Hansen have preferred translations of Home, Hesiod and the Greek Plays suitable for a 71 year old who wants to read or reread things that he has neglected for too long.
VDH, you confirm what I suspected: that Obama got involved in Libya to be seen as “Doing Something Presidential”.
THis Arab fight today n join together when it come to hate westerns n other people of religious. Better we stay away n watch these barbaric people fight n kill each others. Already many banks went bankruptcy in 2008 crisis if second dip happen that will be end of USA dominance in the word arena.
“I am not fit for this office and never should have been here.”
~ Warren G. Harding
Mr. Harding will have company at the bottom of the Presidential ratings in about 50 years.
MArk:
A bit off topic but I had this discussion with some acquaintances over the need to occupy Iraq for a generation to allow some experience with liberty to take root. But as my buddies correctly pointed out- we would not have the patience to last it out. Same with France. Would they stick it out for the necessary length of time? It would also be expensive.
One thing I would add to this-
From Machiavelli:”Wars may begin when you will, but they do not end when you please.”
We need to think long and hard before we intervene. That may well mean the defeat of the Libyan rebels. That will mean a lot of people will be killed. But it will END! An argument can be made that our intervening will drive the body count far higher than it would have been.
“…the use of military force has to be hard, fast and precise. There must be an obtainable goal (not just “humanitarian” feel good self-righteousness coveted by liberals). The highly-touted “exit stategy” is ludicrous. In a MILITARY action, the “exit” is accomplished when the enemy is dead and his equipment lies in smoking ruins.”
This is the other side of the coin. Once we do intervene-I prefer our military actions to be as savage, vicious, unfair, one-sided, and as bloody for the enemy as we can possibly make it!!
btw: I do have one caveat-I do not believe that military force on a large scale can be made as precise as any of us would wish. Were I Ghadalfy (or however his name is spelled) as soon as I started taking significant casualties i would deliberately place my forces in close proximity to civilians.
As an American I regret those civilian casualties but tit is better to inflict those casualties and win than to protect those civilians and have the war drag on without resolution resulting in whole orders of magnitude more civilian casualties.
Anybody else hearing echoes of 2003? WMDs? We have to intervene now, right now, no questions asked?