How Could They Do That in Arizona!
The Arizona Hysteria
Racist! Nativist! Profiler! Xenophobe!
Write or say anything about illegal immigration, and one should expect to be called all of that and more—even if a strong supporter of legal immigration. Illegal alien becomes undocumented worker. Anti-immigrant replaces anti-illegal-immigration. “Comprehensive” is a euphemism for amnesty. Triangulation abounds. A fiery op-ed grandstands and deplores the Arizona law, but offers no guidance about illegal immigration — and blames the employer for doing something that the ethnic lobby in fact welcomes.
Nevertheless, here it goes from a supporter of legal immigration: how are we to make sense of the current Arizona debate? One should show concern about some elements of the law, but only in the context of the desperation of the citizens of Arizona. And one should show some skepticism concerning mounting liberal anguish, so often expressed by those whose daily lives are completely unaffected by the revolutionary demographic, cultural, and legal transformations occurring in the American Southwest.
As I understand the opposition to the recent Arizona law, it boils down to something like the following: the federal government’s past decision not to enforce its own law should always trump the state’s right to honor it. That raises interesting questions: Does the state contravene federal authority by exercising it? If the federal government does not protect the borders of a state, does the state have a right to do it itself? The federal government has seemed in the past to be saying that if one circumvented a federal law, and was known to have circumvented federal law with recognized impunity, then there was no longer a law to be enforced.
A Losing Political Issue
The politics of illegal immigration are a losing proposition for liberals (one can see that in the resort to euphemism), even if they don’t quite see it that way. Here are ten considerations why.
Law?—What Law?
First, there is the simplicity of the argument. One either wishes or does not wish existing law to be enforced. If the answer is no, and citizens can pick and chose which laws they would like to obey, in theory why should we have to pay taxes or respect the speed limit? Note that liberal Democrats do not suggest that we overturn immigration law and de jure open the border — only that we continue to do that de facto. Confusion between legal and illegal immigration is essential for the open borders argument, since a proper distinction between the two makes the present policy indefensible—especially since it discriminates against those waiting in line to come to America legally (e.g., somehow our attention is turned to the illegal alien’s plight and not the burdensome paperwork and government obstacles that the dutiful legal immigrant must face).
Why Wave the Flag of the Country I Don’t Wish to Return To?
Second, often the protests against enforcement of immigration law are strangely couched within a general climate of anger at the U.S. government (and/or the American people) for some such illiberal transgression (review the placards, flags, etc. at May Day immigration rallies). Fairly or not, the anger at the U.S. and the nostalgia for Mexico distill into the absurd, something like either “I am furious at the country I insist on staying in, and fond of the country I most certainly do not wish to return to” or “I am angry at you so you better let angry me stay with you!” Such mixed messages confuse the electorate. As in the case with the Palestinians, there is an effort to graft a foreign policy issue (protecting an international border) onto domestic identity politics, to inject an inflammatory race/class element into the debate by creating oppressors, victims, and grievances along racial divides.
Big Brother Mexico?
Third, Mexico is no help. Now it weighs in with all sorts of moral censure for Arizonians — this from a corrupt government whose very policies are predicated on exporting a million indigenous people a year, while it seeks to lure wealthy “gringos” to invest in second-homes in Baja. The absence of millions from Oaxaca or Chiapas ensures billions in remittances, less expenditures for social services, and fewer dissident citizens. But the construct of Mexico as the concerned parent of its own lost children is by now so implausible that even its sympathizers do not take it seriously. Mexico has lost all credibility on these issues, expressing concern for its own citizens only when they seem to have crossed the border — and left Mexico.
It’s Not a Race Issue
Fourth, there really is a new popular groundswell to close the borders. Most against illegal immigration, especially in the case of minorities and Mexican-American citizens, keep rather mum about their feelings. But that silence should not be interpreted as antagonism to enforcing the law. Many minorities realize that the greatest hindrance to a natural rise in wages for entry level jobs has been the option for an employer to hire illegal aliens, who, at least in their 20s and 30s, will work harder for less pay with fewer complaints (when sick, or disabled, or elderly, the worker is directed by the employer to the social services agencies and replaced by someone younger as a new cycle of exploitation begins). In this context, the old race card is less effective. The general population is beginning to see not that Americans (of all races who oppose illegal immigration) are racist, but that the open borders movement has itself a racially chauvinistic theme to it, albeit articulated honestly only on university campuses and in Chicano-Latino departments, as a sort of “payback” for the Mexican War, where redress for “lost” land is finally to be had through demography.
Bad Times
Fifth, we are in a deep recession, in which the jobs that for so long seemed unappealing to American citizens are now not all that unappealing. The interior of California suffers from 20% Depression-style unemployment; many of the jobless are first and second-generation Mexican-Americans, who would have some leverage with employers if there were not an alternative illegal labor poll.
A Fence—How Quaint!
Sixth, the so-called unworkable fence mostly works; it either keeps border crossers out or diverts them to unfenced areas. (There is a reason why Obama has ordered its completion tabled). It used to be sophisticated wisdom to tsk-tsk something as reductive as walls, usually by adducing the theory that if an occasional alien made it over or under a wall, then it was of no utility, without acknowledging the fence’s effectiveness in deterring most would-be crossers. But where the fence has gone up, crossings have gone down; and where it is not yet completed crossings have increased.
One Big Travel Advisory?
Seventh, Mexico is now more violent than Iraq. The unrest is spilling across the borders. The old shrill argument that criminals, drug smugglers, and violence in general are spreading into the American southwest from Mexico is not longer quite so shrill.
11 Million—Then, Now, Forever?
Eighth, the numbers are cumulative. We talked of “eleven million illegal aliens” in 2001, and still talk of “eleven million illegal aliens” in 2010. In fact, most suspect that there is more likely somewhere between 12 and 20 million. (Do the math of annual arrivals and add them to the existing pool, factoring in voluntary and coerced deportations).
Money for Mexico?
Ninth, we are at last turning to the issue of remittances: How can expatriates send back some $20-30 billion in remittances, if they are impoverished and in need of extensive entitlements and subsidies to cushion the harshness of life in America? Do those lost billions hurt the U.S. economy? Are they a indirect subsidy for Mexico City? Were such funds ever taxed completely or off-the-books cash income? Remittances are Mexico’s second largest source of foreign exchange; that it comes so often off the sweat of minimum-wage workers seems especially ironic, given Mexico’s protestations about human rights.
The California Canary
Tenth, California’s meltdown is instructive. If about half the nation’s illegal aliens reside in the state, and its problems are in at least in some part attributable to soaring costs in educating hundreds of thousands of non-English-speaking students, a growing number of aliens in prison and the criminal justice system, real problems of collecting off-the-books income and payroll taxes, expanding entitlements, and unsustainable social services, do we wish to avoid its model?
The Law’s a Mess?
The enforcement of the law, such as it is, has become Byzantine: illegal aliens in California pay a third of the college tuition as non-resident citizens; police routinely inquire about all sorts of possible criminal behavior — except the violation of federal immigration statutes. Past, once-and-for-all, final, absolutely-no-more amnesties encourage more illegal entries on the expectation of more such no-more amnesties.
Bottom line. I can understand the liberal desire for open borders. For some, it is genuine humanitarianism — that the U.S. is wealthy enough to absorb a quarter of the impoverished population of Mexico. For others, it is policy by anecdote: helping a long-employed nanny with a car payment or a loyal gardener with a legal matter by extension translates into support for de facto open borders. I have met over the years literally hundreds of Bay Area residents who have assured me that because they have developed a close relationship with Juan, their lawn mower, by extension everyone in nearby Redwood City — which they do not frequent and keep their children away from — ipso facto is like Juan and thus should be given amnesty.
On the political side, Democrats clearly welcome new voting constituents. Illegal aliens becoming citizens, at least for a generation or so, translates into more entitlements and a larger government to administer. (Note how there is not a liberal outcry that we do not let in enough computer programers from India, small businessmen from France and Germany, or doctors from Korea). Then there is the gerrymandering of the American Southwest to reflect new demographic realities, and the pipe-dream of a salad bowl of unassimilated peoples in need of a paternalistic liberal technocratic governing class — all that apparently is worth the firestorm of trying to ram through something so unpopular as “comprehensive” reform.
Not Quite So Easy
Do conservatives have the winning argument? For now yes — simply close the border , fine employers of illegal aliens, and allow the pool of aliens to become static. Fining employers both stops illegal immigration and is sometimes cheered on by the Left, as if the worker has no culpability for breaking the law (e.g., a liberal can damn unscrupulous employers and thereby oppose illegal immigration without confronting the La Raza bloc). Some will marry citizens. Some will voluntarily return to Mexico. Some will be picked up through the normal government vigilance we all face — traffic infractions, necessary court appearances, interaction with state agencies. And while we argue over the policy concerning the remaining majority of illegal aliens and such contentious issues as green-cards, guest workers, and so-called earned citizenship, the pool at least in theory shrinks.
Yet if I were a Republican policy-maker I would be very wary of mass deportations. A gradualist approach, clearly delineated, is preferable, in which those who have been here five years (to pick an arbitrary number), are gainfully employed, and are free of a criminal record should have some avenue for applying for citizenship (one can fight it out whether they should pay a fine, stay or return to Mexico in the process, and get/not get preference over new applicants.)
Again, one should avoid immediate, mass deportations (it would resemble something catastrophic like the Pakistani-Indian exchanges of the late 1940s), and yet not reward the breaking of federal law. Good luck with that.
Finally, legal immigration should be reformed and reflect new realities. Millions of highly educated and skilled foreigners from Asia, Africa, Latin America, and Europe are dying to enter the U.S. Rather than base immigration criteria on anchor children, accidental birth in the U.S. without concern for legality, and family ties, we need at least in part to start giving preference to those of all races and nationalities who will come with critical skills, and in turn rely less on the social service entitlement industry. They should come from as many diverse places as possible to prevent the sort of focused ethnic tribalism and chauvinism we have seen in the case of Mexico’s cynicism.







1. On the federal preemption argument, did only the Federal government enforce Prohibition?
I think not. Does anyone know for sure?
Local police officials must have enforced federal law. They had to. There weren’t enough federal agents to do so.
2. A guy at the LA Times Book Festival (on Book TV last weekend) attacked VDH by name as being “anti-immigrant.” His discourse was disjointed. He left out the word “illegal” in his talk. They always leave out the illegal part.
3. If we lose the rule of law, we lose just about everything. Selective enforcement of the law is abdication of the rule of law.
So we tell them “Ya’ll are all Welcome Here” and you can stay as long as you want to . . . We just need for you to line up and get your social security cards .. . Just exactly how many of them do you think will do that? If they do, what happens to their jobs? Do you think the patron working the peons is going to cover the associated expenses of having a “real” employee on the books? Do you really think that the employer is now ready and willing to cover the insurance costs or pay the fine? We just create a whole new category of illegals. What happens to the boarder? What a stinking mess patron!
I don’t get it. Are you saying that in order to continue what is basically slavery (ie: the employer who refuses to pay a basic living wage and pay for healthcare), we should just turn our eyes and pretend it isn’t happening? If the business is viable, they will pass the costs of paying fair wages on to the customer. Yes, the cost of vegetables will rise. No, that isn’t a decent reason for creating a slave class, jefe.
On the border, thousands are caught and sent back. It doesn’t matter that people pay thousands of dollars to get to the border. We applaud the work of the border guards. I believe even liberals would oppose an unlimited and unrestricted influx of millions.
But if they can make it past those guards and get 50 or more miles in the country they will have many vocal and important advocates.
The leftist Democrats want only enough illegals in the country to turn into citizens—that vote for Democratic Party candidates. They would be hostile toward them if polling data later proved most illegals eventually became staunch Republican voters. The Democrats also don’t want to see these individuals grow self-sufficient and independent. These people are to remain forevermore on the Democratic Party plantation.
BINGO!
You left out PC and diversity. Think about it this way. If we continue on our current path, we will lose any similance of Nation, law, and culture. How many of current, both legal and illegal, immagrants wish to assimilate into our fast disappearing culture of freedom, liberty, and law. I have just seen the opposite. We are being forced to adopt to their cultures thanks to our congress and executive branch.
I wonder if amnesty would be given to me as a Canadian. I am a triple minority in Toronto: white, Jewish, conservative. Perhaps I should fly to Mexico and try to cross the border. Do you think Pelosi/Sharpton/Obama would rally behind me?
The Democrats would be enraged if white Canadian illegally entered the USA—and later turned into staunch Republican voters. This is why they so desperately race card the issue. The Hispanic illegals are usually marginally and functionally illiterate. It is much easier to encourage them to becoming dependent on the welfare state.
Probably not, but as a white Jewish female, you could become an elected federal legislator and “represent” the citizens of CA.
I have about as much in common with an elected federal legislator in California as I do with a Buddhist monk. If I ever was allowed American citizenship, there would be no bigger patriot than me. (and I already am)
Only if she were insanely liberal as well.
There was a case where a Jewish Canadian woman who failed to do the proper paperwork years ago was deported back to Canada. She was a mother of three, that didn’t matter. Her husband was a US citizen, that didn’t matter. The INS was out to prove that they handled everyone equally. However, was it really equally?
At one time, there was an allotted 50,000 lottery applicants from Canada but Clinton closed the lottery to Canadians, citing that “diversity” was lacking by letting in so many Canadians. Most days when I ride the subway, I am the only white person in my car. Doesn’t that qualify me as a visible minority?
No- you are now the ” Minority Majority ” ( I kid you not). When minorities became the majority in detroit, did they become the Majority ? No- they became the “Majority Minority” so they can keep claiming special status. The other phrase used in government contracts is HUB- Historically Underutilized Business- also known as Minority owned businesses.
If you find Reid, Pelosi and Sharpton behind you I will bet money there will soon be a knife in your back.
They probably wouldn’t rally behind you but they might joke about a glass of water and a neck tie.
To understand the Democrat position look at the history of the “Urban Ethnics”.
The Urban Ethnics were the descendants of immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe who came here from roughly 1900 – 1955. They were a loyal Democrat voting block up until 1980 when they went for Reagan, the first time that demographic group went Republican. The Democrats then changed all of their platform policies in re immigration.
Out went the melting pot; in came multiculturalism and the salad bowl.
Out went low immigration to protect worker’s salaries; in came mass migration.
Out went effective education; in came ineffective yet politically untouchable ethnic pandering programs.
The Democrats learned their lesson well. They were never going to let another group act like the Urban Ethnics — who got assimilated, got educated, and got good jobs. They got successful. They got independent. They got up and left.
Every Democrat immigration policy is designed to keep that from happening again… something Hispanics best figure out. Democrats have slammed shut the door every other immigrant group entered… that well-trodden path to success is closed. Off limits. Not for you.
Our so-called intellectual elite are proving themselves bereft of intellect…. by their need to bash the country with under-educated illegal immigrants. But be of good cheer, eventually wisdom will increase — even from generations of people who immigrated here illegally — and the temporary advantage the elite now crave, will evaporate into a glorious day of judgment against every known insane construct of reality distortion. Just be patient! Truth shall regain balance against the inebriated tipsters, banksters, and hubristers of all stripes! Amazingly, truth still endures! I pray we do, and the liars get their due! Our job is just to get out of the way of recompense of the irredeemably insane.
Does your middle name really have two “i”s in it?
VDH,
I’ve lived in Chiapas and love to travel in Mexico. I just returned from Quintana Roo. I love the country and the people. That said, if I tried overstaying my visa or, gasp, get a job south of the border…… All hell can and does break loose. They’re serious about it.
No lo esta aqui en los estados unidos. Por que’?
Thats the biggest hypothetical question, and you dont know the answer because we have never seen a widescale rebellion of American expats in a foreign country. But this is my answer:
I dont think, as long as the US had a capable military and nuclear arsenal as a fail-safe, that the Mexico would put the ultimate beatdown, say if you had “marchas” by voluminous American expats calling for full property and voting rights. On an individual basis, yes, they still get away with the ’7-Up down the nostrils and stinking badges’ treatment. Make into into a big marcha and there would be too many cameras and we hold too many millions of trump cards. Also once Obamacare kicks in, there would be too much medical tourism to be risked.
Simply incoherent.
Essential vdh
Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country.
Nothing could be a better illustration of what a country looks like as Arizona shows when just trying to protect legal Americans and when the country is run by idiots and without an intelligent free press.
Make sure your voting reflects what America needs to be. That of course also means replacing republicans as need especially J. McCain.
#2: “Ya’ll are Welcome Here…” as registered guest workers. Guest workers are not entitled to any federal or state entitlement programs (no Medicaid, welfare, Social Security, Medicare, etc.). Guest workers must pay federal and state income taxes and local property taxes. Guest workers must remain employed to stay in the USA. Guest workers’ children may attend public schools. Guest workers’ employers may offer health insurance benefits, but are not required to do so. Regardless, guest workers are responsible for their heath care bills. Guest workers who wish to become citizens can do so if they remain employed, do not commit felonies, demonstrate adequate English language skills, and demonstrate adequate knowledge of our governmental systems.
The above approach to immigration would allow anyone to immigrate who is willing to stay employed, pay taxes, but forego government entitlements (until becoming a permanent resident or a citizen). Illegal aliens could apply for guest worker status during an amnesty period. After that, illegal aliens would be deported upon detection.
Ok . . . “Guest Worker can I please see your papers!!! . . . to include your W-2 form, Social Security Card, Proof of Employmnet Certificate”. Come on get real man . . . and you think that since they are here legal now, that they don’t know every trick in the book to obtain the “benefits”. If they are not eligible then tell me how the Non-English Speaking people in the line at WalMart get the food stamps, lol. Oh, so now we can ask them for their papers, at least in Arizona. Keep in mind that fraudlent us of food stamps is a federal offense, lol.
The point of a liberal guest worker program is to remove the incentives to illegal immigration. Making immigration easy eliminates nearly all the incentives for illegal immigration. We’ll still have some illegal immigration of persons who wouldn’t qualify for guest worker status because they are criminals, but the situation will be much better than it is today.
I agree that some guest workers will try to pose as citizens or permanent residents to get benefits they are not entitled too. But, our own citizens commit such fraud all the time.
Even a guest worker program still takes jobs away from Americans and continues to lure illegals into the country.
As the other poster pointed out, there are industries that do nothing but crank out counterfeit documents for illegals to use in getting jobs.
The key is to crack down on employers so it is not worth the risk of employing illegals. This means that the rest of us need to be willing to pay more to get that deck installed or gutters cleaned. I could foresee some kind of label or certification, like the Better Business Bureau seal of approval, that would certify that a business is 100% compliant with immigration laws, i.e., no illegals. Consumers could then insist that they will only buy products and services from companies that have this certification.
Thanks, Dr. T, for your attempt to interject facts into an emotional issue with which most writers have little direct experience. A more liberal and less paternalistic guest worker program in the 90′s would have prevented much of the problem we have now: Employees trapped by the easy accessibility of the 90s’ borders, by their more-than-5-years employment at a job with health care and other benefits, including sufficient wages to avoid any illicit use of the social services system and their employers trapped by the fear of E-Verifying the status of anyone they thought they legally hired in the late 90s or early 2000′s.
The reason there are so many illegal aliens here–working–is due either to insufficient native births 30 years ago (Roe v. Wade?) or to the 5% or less unemployed native pool that is unwilling to work for more than a few weeks at a stretch, or to remain drug-free. Unless you have run a small-to-medium-sized business for a decade or more, as most commentators on this subject seem NOT to have done, you are likely unaware of these facts…
Thanks for this one, Victor.
I rub elbows with lefty academics all the time in Flagstaff, and the other night, between Tequila shots and fits of dancing to Santana’s latest disc, the issue of Mexicans’ immigration flows into the SW came up.
I asked a liberal acquaintance (she used to work for Jerry Torricelli’s campaigns in NJ) what the hang up was. Why, I asked, shouldn’t Mexico’s citizens line up to apply just like Polish, Indian, Russian and Chilean citizens have historically done. She said I was racist for asking.
But I wouldn’t drop it…I replied that the hang-up is Mexico’s citizens have never adopted the American Bill of Rights, and that if they did I’d be the first to push for El Norte’s unification with the Mexican South and to add one more star to our flag. My liberal friend turned pale, her mouth hung open, and she gasped for air like a landed lung-fish. She had never entertained the idea that there may something special about America, and something lacking in Mexicans’ traditional jurusprudence that might argue against permitting their un-documented immigration.
After blustering and waving her hands in the air, finally she blurted out, “Mexico would NEVER want to join America!” Of course, every Mexican national who crosses into Arizona, California or Texas is refuting her, and she knows it, but still she could not relinquish her liberal anti-American talking point. The seconds passed uninterrupted, and I let silence slowly make my point for me: my “liberal” fellow-citizen neither relishes the Bill of Rights that her political party claims to champion, nor does she thinks that any other person in the world should.
But there is one more juicy contradiction to note. When I floated the topic of unification with Mexico my interlocuter got flabbergasted: any extension of America’s Constitutional order, even if it is sanctioned by a public referendum in a neighboring state like Mexico, is to be opposed. This, she says, is “extending American Imperialism,” and, furthermore, nations are oppressive, patriarchal constructs that should be dissolved in order to achieve “global harmony.” Problem is, this registered Democrat (an American political party) cloaks her defense of illegal immigration in racialist terms that invoke “Hispanics,” and “Latinos” as facile proxies for the Mexican nation and its government policies – which she has no problem whatsoever defending and extending.
So which is it? Is all nationalism bad, or is just American nationalism bad? Is Mexico’s socio-political tradition compatible with ours, or not? And, do Democrats revere our bill of rights, or is it just a Monopoly card for them – something to get them out of jail free, a property on Boardwalk, or a win in the next election?
From my liberal Democratic friend’s responses, I gather that so long as the target is America, so-called nationalism, immigrants’ cultures, and even our beloved “human rights” are ready pawns in the Left’s electoral games. But, turn the light onto other nations, other cultures, and other, non-American modes of jurisprudence, and suddenly all are sacrosanct, immune to scrutiny, and taboo.
Perhaps it’s her London School of Economics degree, or her Princeton education, or her tenure inside “the Torch’s” New Jersey political schemes, or her failed marriage to a black panther in the sixties, I’ll never know. But, with every shot of Tequilla, my arguer began to sound more and more like Edward Said, only she bandied about her version of his “Orientalism” to defend illegal immigration from scrutiny and not suicide bombings. Small difference, I know…but she is an East Coast Democrat. And there’s time a plenty to man the ramparts for Islamist terror later on.
As an Arizonian I would rather have the fence between N.J. and Arizona if it would keep these “Eastern Liberals” out of our state. They do more harm to our way of life.
Nicely written, steveaz. Stepford Liberals go quite made when confronted with the folly of their attitudes and policies.
since you liberal friend likes illegal immigration so much, ask her if she would like to contribute half of her salary for their upkeep.
[...] Why, I asked, shouldn’t Mexico’s citizens line up to apply just like Polish, Indian, Russian and Chilean citizens have historically done. [...]
SteveAz, you nailed it -
The current immigration policies that address this southern border problem are completely unfair and anti-democratic -
Why someone who wants to come to America from anywhere in the world, Nigeria, Latvia, Mongolia or New Zeeland must apply, pay fees, go through checks, or visa lotteries, wait for years for a result, while someone who can trick the San Isidro check point, or illegally cross the border anywhere from Texas to California, when here, is automatically considered a martyr who is owed all the rights of a legitimate US citizen?
Here we have a great an insulting discrimination which grossly disfavors those who observe the US laws elsewhere in the world and those who are favored by mere geographical proximity -
Where is the ACLU, the Southern Poverty Center in thid?
I asked a liberal acquaintance (she used to work for Jerry Torricelli’s campaigns in NJ) what the hang up was. Why, I asked, shouldn’t Mexico’s citizens line up to apply just like Polish, Indian, Russian and Chilean citizens have historically done. She said I was racist for asking.
—-
Funny thing is, many Indians are darker than many Mexicans. Chileans are hispanic, just like Mexicans. Nigerians are black. I could go on.
But somehow asking Mexicans to obey the same rules that the rest of the world has to, is racist.
I would say that this is evidence of the strange ways that the minds of liberals work. Except I can’t find any evidence to suggest that the minds of liberals work in the first place.
You inadvertently scratched the surface of the uproar. Generally speaking liberals don’t really think. Virtually every person who has negative commentary whether in blogs or on TV including the milder criticisms from “conservatives” misconstrue the language of the bill. Most of the lefty loons claim to be shocked that merely being an illegal alien could be illegal, truly astounding.
At ASU Law school, the students are all convinced the law says that racial profiling of Mexicans is legal.
Fabulous essay. I’m sharing this with family and friends. We need thoughtful, honest and fearless discussion of this issue. Thank you Professor Hanson. By the way, my parents were among the first to escape Castro’s Cuba (interviewed by the FBI in order to garner information on what was really happening in Cuba). They had to escape as no one was allowed to leave as early as 1960. They declared political asylum upon arriving in New Orleans (via the airliner they had risked their lives sneaking aboard). My point? They were technically legal immigrants, extraordinary circumstances. They had careers and comfortable lives, which they abandoned, recognizing very early what Castro portended. We support legal immigration and at the same time sympathize with people who have the ambition to come here. I support the approach you outline in this essay.
I read the most amazing headline:
“ARIZONA TO MAKE ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION AGAINST THE LAW”
I was even more surprised that I had a reaction to this headline having long ago “checked out” (mentally) of this country.
In response to the first commenter, local law enforcement did indeed assist the Feds in enforcing Prohibition. I just finished a book about the Texas Rangers, and they spent a great deal of time chasing down bootleggers. The local police assisted them. Times were different.
Federal laws are enforced by local police at all levels. Most State laws parallel the Federal statutes. When the Feds are interested, they intervene and take-over. If not, they let the State/County/City cops proceed. That was also true in the prohibition era.
Illegal immigrants make reforming legal immigration more difficult. Why? Because the Dems want to rule, not simply govern, and the more dependent people they can get on the books the more votes they think they will have, forever. By the way, U.S. immigrant visas are not free – about $1200 per person. It may actually be cheaper to pay a coyote to smuggle one in than to pay for a legal ticket.
Natch, coyote fees can range from $2,000 to probably north of $10,000 once 1070 kicks in. Shoot, I’d rather price Visas inversely to one’s skill set (the typical mojado would pay U.S. State 8K, while the skilled computer guy pays the current rate) and dry up the coyote’s income.
Either way its not like 1070 addresses the festering sore of the border itself. Obama could have made a deal with Brewer not to sign 1070 while the US Army could have sent actual troops to the border. And if these troops were from Iraq, Afghanistan, or South Korea (which would make the most sense based on actual border experience and the mystifying “bite the hand” behavior of many South Koreans) he would score points with his hard left supporters as well.
This one goes to VDH: isnt “intermarriage” really better for the chubby chicks or ugly dudes than for the illegal himself?
There is no federal preemption issue. The Arizona law simply requires Arizona officials to make reasonable efforts to determine the immigration status of those individuals they have legitimate contact with and reasonably suspect they may be in the US illegally. It also requires illegal aliens to be turned over to federal authorities when released from state custody.
There are a few more features but all simply empower or require Arizona officials to enforce Arizona law that is predicated on a persons federal government determined immigration status. Such as the trespass expansion to include persons unauthorized to be on Arizona public or private land due to their unlawful presence in the United States as determined by the US government. Arizona is in the United States. Someone who is not authorized by the federal government to be in the United States cannot therefore be on Arizona controlled public or private land without their presence being unauthorized and there for trespass. The law does have serious felony status when the trespass is incorporated with unlawful drug possession, unlawful possession of drug manufacture precursors, unlawful possession of deadly weapons (federal gun laws prohibit non-lawful resident aliens from possessing firearms unless permitted by the ATF for sporting purposes).
It doesn’t matter what it “looks” like. That’s weak minded bourgeois thinking and utterly beneath contempt. Close the border with armed force, erect a real wall the entire length, put McHale’s Navy aka the Coast Guard to real front line work at both ends, and send all illegals back to wherever they came from. By boat. It’s cheaper and more environmentally friendly. And who cares how long the boat takes. It’s not like the illegals have any pressing engagements.
If the cost of labor rises, and that is an IF not a WHEN, given the Barrynomics permanent depression the USA now needs to cure, too bad. Increasing cost of labor is the only structural protection against enterprise corruption. If this doesn’t make sense to anyone reading, do some googling. A life without questions is not worth living, after all.
Why denigrate the Coast Guard. You must not know anything about this Service, and what they do.
You’re so right Jonathon.
Mandatory compassion savages our Nation. Anchor babies? US Border Patrol? Everywhere else = border guards. Illegal immigrants from everywhere south of the border are invited by free stuff and lack of enforcement. Still enslaved, but better off.
Probably ought to secure the US borders soon. As the world devolves into chaos, the flood of global escapees will become a tsunami from every direction. For jobs? No. For food.
What’s the quota for Greeks? What about progressive Californians?
1 When our Constitution, intended to lay the foundation for the rule of law in the English legal tradition, serves as nothing more than a quaint worn out relic shrouding in mystery our historic freedom from government encroachment, of course each new utopian law becomes less enforceable as more and more are passed.
2 South of the border, of all of the erstwhile European colonizers, their old world culture had the least in common with our traditional western heritage and even less with the protestant origins of society on our side of the border. Balkanization ensuing from language, accommodating social services that also empower the entitling government bureaucracies inexorably expanding beyond every Great Society welfare program, and contrived ethnic affinity, all has collapsed into the norm of tribal hierarchy (there is a minority of true flag wavers from any birth: those who have served honorably in our armed services).
3 Generational corruption inspired by the conquistador founders of that vast southern region have led to regimes that share no standards recognizable to our way of life.
4 Our country’s original, founding, grievance, to be left alone to live free, has devolved—after a century of our own government’s incremental usurpation of authority hitherto left to individual responsibility—into some sort of artificial right to someone-else-pays-my-way.
5 From the strength of our founding heritage, our experience has been hard times are short lived, and good times may go on forever. What could go wrong?
6 Our only memory of a wall that worked, around Berlin, had a simple rule of engagement: shoot to kill (and a single purpose: to keep an enslaved population inside). Not an option here.
7 Our own illicit drug pandemic has also proven that the underworld in Chicago kills more Americans than the Taliban too.
8 Numbers make a weak prima facie argument, especially when they can be gerrymandered into Democrat fiefdoms.
9 The inevitable federal bailout of California will only support the erroneous truism of the sustainability of tax and spend profligacy.
10 Our prosperity shields generations from imported misery. After all, limousine liberals like to have affordable drivers.
In other words, what we need is a new clean slate, which is forthcoming, in 5 years or 10, upon the cataclysmic financial meltdown of government Ponzi schemes in each of the developed countries around the world.
Let’s be optimistic that someone will then rediscover our original Constitution and Bill of Rights, whereby we can start our Nation anew.
“In other words, what we need is a new clean slate, which is forthcoming, in 5 years or 10, upon the cataclysmic financial meltdown of government Ponzi schemes in each of the developed countries around the world.
Let’s be optimistic that someone will then rediscover our original Constitution and Bill of Rights, whereby we can start our Nation anew.”
Good stuff Charles but one small problem. We have not yet figured out how to bring back to life that which is dead. In this instance, the original Constitution and the Bill of Rights are on life support. Do you believe there will still be life after Obama’s second inaugural?
How do you propose to prevent him from having a second? I surely would like to know.
Optimism in one hand and spit in the other leaves little question about which hand contains the most significant matter. At least that’s my view. 2012
is the final, fading hope. Later is too late.
Like with healthcare, there appears to be a bit of “hysteria” with immigration, specifically on/near the border states (which are actuall many). However, I am sure this new Arizona law will “develop” over time. Immigration is a tough issue mainly because, like myself, our parents and/or grand parents were immigrants, so it gets personal. Something had to be done and Arizona has “tried” something. Lets see how it pans out eh?
PC: Were your parents legal or illegal immigrants? It’s as simple as that. Furthermore, if these 12-20 million Mexican citizens truly wanted to become American citizens, they would have immigrated legally and acclimated into our culture. They wouldn’t use the “anchor” baby route to getting American goodies without becoming American.
Do you PC favor a balkanized culture here in America-one American, one Mexican? And then what if the Muslims here want their culture here? Ya know the old slippery- slope thingy…
The hysteria you speak of is the Dems/pro-illegal immigrant, leftist yelling “fire” in the theater. And why do the Dems so very much want illegals to be granted American rights like voting, welfare, etc??
This whole debate is insane.
My grandparents and greatgrandparents came here legally, they never looked back, gave up the Old Country ways, and assimilated as Americans. The great mass of Mexican illegals have no such intentions. Many nurse a grievance believing the US stole half of Mexico (and the half that was stolen had the good roads, jobs, and plumbing that works).
I am not too sure about that one. I agree on the legality issue to some extent, but I must disagree on the “all them the same” aspect. I have known many people from Mexico and South America both in the Marines and the Navy and the other branches, from all over and I found them to be very patriotic, honorable and very hard working “Americans”. Whether in the community or the armed services. Sorry if you did not.
I doubt too many of the Mexicans you met in the military were illegals.
Many Illegals join the military because completing a tour of duty in the military comes with automatic citizenship. So many join, in fact, that the military was forced to create programs specifically to teach Spanish-speaking immigrants English as quickly as possible. The military does not check or really care about immigrant status as long as the recruit has a fairly clean record.
I. Many of the immigrants of old didnt come from an actual country, functional or dysfunctional – Irish came from the UK, Poles came from either Germany (or Prussia), Russia, or Austria; Serbians – Croats, came from Austria or Turkey. We had the advantage of accepting immigrants who were actually treated like shite with a bayonnet at their back in some cases. The ideal immigrant today would be an Israeli or a Darfurian rocket scientist (maybe not, with all those NASA layoffs..).
II. Poor C is right – the further you get away from the Southwest, that Reqon attitude changes. One, you actually did cross the border, and two, no urban black folk are going to be outshined in the grievance industry and better to let the ghetto hog all the headlines.
Your otherwise intelligent article, VDH, is deeply marred by your insistence that mass deportations are a big no-no for the Republicans to advocate.
Let me refer you — and our readers — to this: How Eisenhower Solved Illegal Border Crossings from Mexico, at http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html/%28page%29/2.
Clearly, as the ‘Eisenhower’ article states, “powerful political and corporate interests” have colluded to perpetuate our porous border. And John and Jane Doe get to pick up the tab, and not only in financial terms! Our lives and property are at risk, and we WON’T be tolerant of lawmakers who continue to look the other way while they profit politically at our expense.
We need the ‘Eisenhower treatment,’ and pronto!
Writing from south of Tucson, darcy.
Eisenhower’s mass deportation of illegals, to reclaim jobs for returning US vets and reduce crime, was calle Operation Wetback..no kidding, google it.
And he was not the first to perform mass deportations. Herber Hoover did so, as did Harry Truman. It absolutely can be done. And should.
Warm up the buses, boys. God bless Arizona
I’ve only an anecdote. A couple of years ago I went on a bike ride with my two brothers at night (no, I’m not 15, my brother was in town from the Coast Guard…), and we got stopped by a cop. The cop told us that he had the authority to take us in if we couldn’t show any identification, because it was a high crime area.
Was the cop lying?
In any case, there is no reason why people over 18 years old should not be EXPECTED to be able to produce some form of identification, even if only by verbal confirmation. The race-baiters on the left are sure going to conjure up some blood on this one. Man, do they suck.
“In any case, there is no reason why people over 18 years old should not be EXPECTED to be able to produce some form of identification”
—as in, “Your papers, please.”
Here’s a simple solution to the whole problem—national, or U.S. Govt.-approved identity cards, along with a Federal requirement that you be able to positively identify yourself to any law officer upon request, and that such cards be shown in order to take employment, register for college, buy a gun, etc. And the best news: if you’ve got nothing to hide, then you’ve got nothing to fear.
However well intentioned, the problem with the Arizona law is that it makes the solution above the only practical (and just) procedure. Either way, it gives the police complete discretion to hassle *me*.
Great one VDH! But I’m a bit more hardned than you in this area. Hey, even if the ILLEGAL aliens were blue eyed blonds, I’d want every last one of ‘em out!
Me? I’d bring the guys out of retirement who build the Berlin Wall to build a new one between us & Mexico.
Then, I’d deport the lot of ‘em-civil war or not!
As a former CA resident living in Bulgaria, we went through a VERY expensive & difficult process to become permanent LEGAL residents here. It simply causes me blood to boil that in CA you get a pass if you are an illegal.
No other nation in the world would stand for this but the US.
I personally know of one example here in Bulgaria of an illegal alien. He was caught 2 weeks later & immediately put on a the next flight back to where he came from. Just about zero problem w/ this in our part Eastern Europe.
Yes, the cultural issues differ, but basicall the law does not. Why bother to have a law on immigration if no one enforces it?
Bottom line: there is simply no political will to enforce our fed immigration law. So, what choice do the states have except to do what AZ did. Oh, never mind…some judge somewhere will through this law out eventually.
Still looking for the Berlin Wall guys from the old DDR…bring ‘em on!
I echo SteveAZ – thanks again VDH. MEXIFORNIA was the first concentrated look I gave to this problem since moving to Phoenix in ’99. I am pleased as can be with Jan Brewer for not wigging on this. I truly believe she can lead this state back from the financial misery Napolitano left behind to play big sis for Obama. Talk about upwardly mobile failure. ‘the border..is..more..secure than…???!!!’
I would add this – esspecially to VDH point ‘The California Canary’.
The Napolitano era was fueled in part by a quazi-Californication. I worked for almost my entire stay here in Corporate Collections & after 9/11 I noticed a lot of people moving here from Cali. Several who shuttered their biz there – due to issues VDH has written extensively about – were people drawn to Arizona for many of the same reasons most of us were – it was vibrant with explosive growth and a lower cost of living. There was practically NO DOWNTURN here in the past two prior recessions – until the bottom fell out in ’07-08.
In the Tech dip (’98-’99) & after 9/11 – Californians who were afraid they couldn’t last in the Golden State could still cash out on their ‘special’ real estate market and come here flush and immediately enjoy the lifestyle they had aspired to in Cali.
I don’t think its a coincidence that along with this influx of Californians came a new way of doing business in real estate -both commercial and residential – one that had been refined in a state where valuations and ‘price models’ have defied both gravity and logic since the Jarvits tax revolt of 1978.
I saw a similar thing evolve in collection call rooms. Managment felt empowered by the availability of cheap labor. Virtually in five years post 9/11 both the construction and resturant biz here just openly became dominated by immigrants. In ’99 it was a much tighter labor market and anyone had better leverage – by ’04 the influx of immigrants had shut that door.
This invasion was facilitated by Napolitano and fellow dems – and all had very similar results here as did the Gerry Brown/Gray Davis years in Cali.
This law is the latest attempt to stop it, roll it back, and restore some order. Just like the Employer Sanction law – and the various props that passed from ’04 on – it’s remained a ranchorous dysfunctional slugfest in state and county government in Maricopa/Phoenix.
This initial reaction will blow over. From my view I don’t believe there is really any debate left outside of the racialists and other lobbyists VDH has long been talking about.
Newt Gingrich has a practical answer – if visa and mastercard can deliver our currency with such regular competence why can’t we take ‘fraud & abuse’ if you will out of the labor market by giving them the contract to track ID and legitimize an invited and wanted foreign work force?
It’s just as VDH says – that workforce should be highly skilled engineers and doctors and entrepreneurs – not illiterate third world laborers.
Phoenix48
“I echo SteveAZ – thanks again VDH. MEXIFORNIA was the first concentrated look I gave to this problem since moving to Phoenix in ‘99. … The Napolitano era was fueled in part by a quazi-Californication.”
Saying “Californication” helpfully identifies you as slow, uninformed, and bigoted, Phoenix48.
“I don’t think its a coincidence that along with this influx of Californians came a new way of doing business in real estate -both commercial and residential – one that had been refined in a state where valuations and ‘price models’ have defied both gravity and logic since the Jarvits tax revolt of 1978.”
Proposition 13 was the Howard Jarvis “tax revolt of 1978.” Learn to spell. Also, having blown into Phoenix in 1999, you’re ignorant of how hard the S&L bust of the 1980s slammed that town and the rest of Arizona.
“…Gerry Brown…”
Jerry Brown.
Stop writing like an illiterate.
Be grateful to Californians, especially the smart hard working ones in Silicon Valley, for whatever prosperity Phoenix has today. Without them, the biggest business in that town would still be a Goldwater’s Department Store selling to Mormon desert farmers.
Eleventh: why should the US taxpayer enable thousands of Mexican men to maintain a casa chica up North while sending a small remittance back home?
Great essay, as usual VDH. As far as mass forced deportations, it doesn’t have to come to that. By taking away every incentive to come an STAY here illegally – and actually enforcing the laws and disincentives – many will leave on their own accord.
I feel bad for the people, but the law is the law. We are first and foremost a nation of laws (at least that’s how we were founded). And perhaps if the corrupt governments of their home countries changed then they wouldn’t have to leave in the first place.
A country that doesn’t control its borders won’t be a country for long.
You want to solve this problem? Ask both American and Mexican citizens if they would like to become one big happy family: Seek to have Mexico become part of the United States.
I like their beaches, I love their culture.
Think about this for a while, don’t just give it a knee jerk refusal response.
America si, Mexico yes! United at last. Put it to a citizens’ vote in both countries.
I guess the drug war is having its intended effect.
Well … it looks like Utah is joining the fight.
Most people don’t know or have forgotten that minority populations that refused assimilation were responsible for or were the pretext for WWI, which then led to WWII.
I don’t follow that comment. Just a bit more data, please.
“our parents and/or grand parents were immigrants, so it gets personal.” This is an example of the “we’re all immigrants, meme.” No, we’re not, if we were born here. Immigrant status is not heritable.
I see that San Francisco is exercised that Arizona, desperate for relief from an endless tide of illegal aliens and despairing of protection by a heedless federal government, has the effrontery to exercise its right to self-defense.
I would hope Arizona would help SF show its heartfelt concern for the welfare of the illegal aliens by loading up all illegal aliens intercepted under the new law, putting them in an Arizona National Guard Hercules cargo jet, and then putting them down at SF International Airport and disgorging them on the tarmac. Repeat as full loads are amassed. That should solve the problem of SF’s concern for the treatment of the Arizona illegals, shouldn’t it?
Just call the damned Democrats what they are: thieving, America-hating, treasonous anti-white racist criminals. Who always fights against any law requiring voters to show identification? Democrats. Who wants to restore voting privileges to felons? Democrats. Who has run the major urban areas of America into the ground with their high tax, high crime, high welfare policies? Democrats. Who is always trying to justify or excuse criminal behavior by minorities? Democrats. Who tried to defeat our military in Iraq with the same tactics they used in the Vietnam War? Democrats
Damn the lot of them. I wish there was a bounty on the bastards.
So the left-wing again tries to sabotage a fully warranted law and to further inflict their America-destroying agenda – here’s how -
A) When one can’t maintain his grip on political power for furthering his intentions by gerrymandering, or other Chicago electoral malfeasance, the next solution is to inject in the tissue of this (already withering) nation 13 million alliens, aliens who:
1) have no sympathy or interest for the history and ways of this station,
2) and who who would greatly dillute the existing and, alas! already supper-extended demographic make-up of America,
3) and who will make for steadfast “vote early and often”, government (read Democrat) indebted clients -
B) Further, actually the main driving force that is causing/ fanning the fuss over this Arizona immigration law (fuss which is totally artificial, anyway, invented by MSM and libs, since the country by a large margin aproves the measure), comes from another, more liberals-distressing issue – which is the likelyhood that Arizona may become a trend setter in the presidential eligibility matter, too, by passing the law that would force any presidential candidate who want to be on the Arizona ballot to prove his/ her constitutional eligibility -
Situation the Dems heartily dread, since Obama clearly looks like having a problem here, and, in the eventuality that that bill will become law, the ensuing show-down over this matter in 2012 will make the Democrat Party explode – bye-bye – no sorrowful memories -
C) Further, as tactics of intimmidation invoking conservatives and liberals who are concerned about government expansion here – There is nothing in the Arizona immigration law that should worry an authentic conservative or libertarian – this rhetoric comes like in many similar situations (same sex-marriage comes to mind), single issue liberals trolls or saboteurs who try to:
1) dynamite this trend they hate (see A above)-
2) torpedo, dillute the legitimacy and power of the trend (see all those parasites, faux libertarians who nested themselves in the Tea Party) -
Support Arizona citizenry – the consequences of this law are akll positive and the entire country will benefit from them – hope more states will adopt the Arizone ways -
I thought Dick Morris said it best;
“This law is controversial because it makes breaking the law illegal.”
enough said.
jd
Why not just redirect the illegals to those cities with large liberal constituencies i.e. San Franciso, LA, Cape Cod, etc? Share the wealth, so to speak.
Exactly Carla, bus them to CA.
I’d be willing to contribute to a fund for providing free bus tickets to San Francisco. It’s a sanctuary city and the illegals will be welcomed with open arms. Cinco de Mayo is coming soon, so we shouldn’t wait.
The Main points seen by the people on the street…
“Comprehensive” is a euphemism for amnesty. & Do conservatives have the winning argument? For now yes — simply close the border , fine employers of illegal aliens, and allow the pool of aliens to become static.
In other words tell Republicans “First Things First, everything else NOT First.”
We’ve figured it out Washington, and we let you know that the last time “Comprehensive Imigration Reform” came up.
You bundle it all together and we’ll get all of the Hensive and none of the Compri.
Bull$#!^
Fix the border first and show us we can trust you. What’s that? You already did that? Oh you mean that lick and a promise about a fence that isn’t going anywhere?
When polls show that people don’t trust republicans it doesn’t mean they prefer democrats, it means that they thing republicans act too much like democrats too often.
Conservativism is too important to leave to the republican party, Support the Tea Parties.
jd
Clearly, we have to close the borders before we have a serious national conversation about what to do about those already here.
It seems to me that one of the criteria for any “path to citizenship” we create has to be not only remaining free of any criminal arrest, but remaining free of having been a public charge — during this ‘path to citizenship’ period, any resort to public assistance or any of the other entitlements of citizens should be grounds for prompt administrative deportation.
Liberals, always in love with their enemies! Always wanting to embrace the “bad guys”! Reminds me of certain women, attracted to the “bad boy” types and never learn, no matter how many times they end up battered and bruised.
Liberalism has been likened to a mental illness: so far, they’ve done nothing to dispel that impression!
With investigative journalism at an all time low we may not know the entire story. Was it possible that the narco terrorists that cross the Arizona border are not being confronted by the Border Patrol? If that is the case then the Arizona legislative response was really justified.
Congratulations, Victor. The application of logic to the raw feelings and feelings-based propaganda of the libruls always results in a winning argument, at least for those who are willing to listen with open minds. The only bit not included was the hypocrisy of Mexico’s leadership, who implement rigorous enforcement of Mexico’s severe laws regarding those who cross into Mexico illegally, yet that same leadership insists the U.S. should let in Mexicans without question. Any American who has traveled into Mexico is familiar with having to stop numerous times on a highway to show zher papers, schnel, to Mexican police.
All of this pontificating is meaningless. Here’s why. You went with “Death Panels.” We’re going with “Papers, please.”
Inaccurate? Unfair? Alarmist? Doesn’t matter. We win.
Big difference.
Death panels are part of the health care bill.
Everyone has to produce ID when asked by a cop, right now.
“Everyone has to produce ID when asked by a cop, right now.”
To the best of my understanding, this is simply untrue. Any lawyers want to chime in?
You win the following: A conical hat, a bib, and a drool cup.
Thanks, but I hate to take your cup just when you need it most. Start your education here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes
The cup’s still yours droolly. Read the article, then change your diaper.
HMI,
It can be easy to miss with the way the comment replies shift right, but if you check closer, you’ll see that Baal was replying to the resident asshat, skeeziks, not you.
Papers, please.
Heck you have to produce a driver’s license or other ID to cash a check, buy groceries, rent a movie, buy an adult beverage, rent a car, stay at a hotel, or just about anything else an adult has to do in daily life. There aren’t to many days I am NOT asked for my ID. And yet suddenly it is a racist act? Only to people who see everything through the multicolored lenses of race.
*I* choose to charge that purchase, rent that movie or, for that matter, drive. Having made that choice, I accept the necessity to show ID. But if I am just walking down the street, the cop has no authority to require that I even give my name verbally, let alone ask for official ID, unless there is some genuine ground for poking his nose in. That’s part of what’s meant by being free from unreasonable search and seizure. So if I decide to celebrate Cinco di Mayo next week by donning a sombrero and singing Celito Lindo while I stroll down the sidewalk, I do not expect to have to prove that I am not an illegal alien—nor should I.
Even more to the point, if I am on that May 5th stroll with my (naturalized) Italian wife and her (naturalized) mother, in addition to my U.S.-born Mexican sister-in-law and her (naturalized) Mexican mother, all jabbering away in a mix of Italian, Spanish and English, we have violated no law and done nothing that makes us in any way, shape, or form “suspicious.” And I, for one, am not ready to hand over the judgment of whether or not I can enjoy my generally presumed right of privacy to the police forces.
Illegal immigration? I’m opposed. The Arizona solution? A cure with truly nasty side-effects. Let them find another solution.
I have two points to make.
1. The Arizona law would never have been passed if the Federal Government hadn’t failed utterly in controlling the border. Such utter failure can only be from complete incompetence or utter malfeasance.
2. The Arizona law is virtually identical to current Federal immigration laws with the addition that local police must enforce the law.
It IS sad it has come to this but don’t blame Arizona, blame a defective Federal bureaucracy.
How egotistical. You willingly disregard the safety of everyone else in your community, on the chance that you might be asked for ID by those hired to protect US.
We are at war, ya know.
“Paper’s please” is the biggest canard yet. We are all required to carry proof of identification already! If you are driving a vehicle, you must carry a drivers license. If you are a resident alien, you must carry your green card at all times. If you want to purchase a house or obtain a job, you must usually provide proof of legal residency, including birth certificate, SSN card, and/or driver’s license.
Arizona police are not going to be randomly going around asking suspicious people for their “papers”. They are authorized to request the Federal Authorities to check into the status of people who have been otherwise picked up for a violation of the law
What do you win, comrade?
Go for it Skeez…
Brilliant article! Clarity, simplicity, and plain speech make for an undeniable power of persuasion.
Theo:
“Brilliant article! Clarity, simplicity, and plain speech make for an undeniable power of persuasion.”
Wouldn’t it be great if there was a chance for the voters for the presidency in 2012 to select someone with such an “undeniable power?” Who do you suppose would fit the bill? John McCain?
Everybody knows that water runs downhill, yet
everybody is surprised when it reaches bottom
and they find themselves drowning.
The California meltdown is providing a preview
of the financial failure of the US, and the
Arizona assertion of a State’s Right to defend its
borders is providing a an example of subsidiarity,
which, along with transparency, are the guidelines
to good government.
@ 20. phoenix48: Gingrich ID proposal
Yes, twice:
1) It would work, and need not raise privacy issues,
because the card can contain biometric data, such as
a fingerprint or retina scan, which matches the card
to the bearer, and the card can tell a law officer,
an employer, or a check-out clerk all they need to know:
The bearer of this card is in the US legally.
2) It is one example of a general rule: 21st century
High Technology can provide solutions to formerly
insoluble problems…if we will use it.
Read the May 2010 National Geographic article on Mexican cults. La Santa Muerte, the Holy Death cult of the drug lords, is coming to your town if it already hasn’t. Still want an open border?
To #1. My parents are from a part of the USA that is legendary for bootlegging and illegal whiskey distilling. I can assure you that federal authorities work hand-in-glove with local authorities even today. The various authorities are enforcing one and the same set of laws.
Mexico is displaying an amazing amount of hypocrisy on this issue, they do much worse than what Arizona is doing, on it’s southern border.
Marco Rubio is disgusting. Typical Miami. The law is the law unless it is Miami. Miami is NOT part of the USA. Visit if you must but it is a foreign country.
The Mexican government should issue a travel advisory. “Mexican citizens, do not go to, or remain, in the United States unless you have legal authorization to do so. We applaud the AZ people for insisting that immigration laws are strictly enforced. We sure do, especially when it comes to poor Guatemalans.”
What did Marco Rubio say? And would it drive you to vote for Kendirck Meek, provided he became more of a blue dog e.g Harold Ford or Artur Davis?
I believe in France the nationality of a child is based on the nationality of its mother; not what country it happened to be born in. I am sure this is true in other European countries as well. Sounds like a good idea to me….
If the AZ law stands I wonder if the remaining legal workers will start to see pay increases.
If they do, what are the odds that someone will pay attention.
Several years ago, a UCLA researcher published a paper that said that illegal immigrants push wages down by 8% for other unskilled workers in the area. Many thought that 8% was way to low, but even it we accept 8%, that is still ONE MONTHS WAGES for a worker at the lower end of the ladder.
How can the supposed “protectors of the little guys” justify cutting a months pay from someone who lives paycheck to paycheck.
GO AZ!!!!
Well put. The cynicism of the Mexican government needs more attention. This is a bilateral issue, and their encouragement of illegal immigration must stop. If we were to squeeze the remittances, I’ll bet they would get a lot more reasonable in a hurry.
According to what I read, the Arizona law is almost word-for-word the same as the federal law except it makes infractions a state crime as well as a federal crime. It’s true that under the supremacy doctrine, federal law trumps state law, but only when they conflict. I think this puts the law in the same category as other concurrent jurisdiction infractions like drug crimes and gun crimes. Prosecutors have the choice, in many states, to bring charges in federal court or state court. In Virginia, prosecutors have been bringing charges in federal court for gun crimes because the penalties are greater there, even though the infractions are state crimes as well. In Arizona, under the new law, state court would be the best choice to get action taken because the federal authorities have demonstrated an unwillingness or inability to do anything.
Also, what about the numerous state and local laws that attempt to circumvent federal marijuana laws? Or those who pass tougher environmental laws than the feds. Why are they good and this law bad?
This issue had always amazed me. It is like most issues that involve big government. Government does not need to “fix” the illegal immigration issue – government simply needs to stop causing the illegal immigration issue. The problem isn’t “them” it is “us”! We do not need to deport people in mass or even build a wall or fence. We just need to take away the reasons people come here illegally (that we have created) and the situation will fix itself! Here is a complete simple solution to the illegal immigration issue is 5 steps:
1. If you knowingly hire an illegal alien (ie fail to observe I-9 requirements or accept documentation you know to be fraudulent) you go to jail – first time. This should be a criminal issue. Create clear standards for due diligence and then hold the person who signs the I-9 on behalf of the employer personally accountable. (This would fix 90% of the problem overnight.)
2. End “automatic citizenship upon US birth”. End the flight to indigent maternity wards (at 8 months 3 weeks) – by taking away the reason people do it. If the mother is not a US citizen – then a baby is born with the mother’s citizenship status.
3. Require an I-9 type check for all social services. If you are not here legally no welfare, no drivers license, no US public schools, no unemployment no anything. We do not need to ask employees of these agencies to report anyone. We simply require I-9 type citizenship documentation for a favorable determination.
4. Prohibit anyone who is currently here illegally from applying for any type of legal status (work visa, citizen ship etc). Require all applications for entry to begin in the country of origin. We must stop placing people who enter the country illegally in front of the line. Preference must be given to people who apply to enter the country legally.
5. Finally – after accomplishing #4 above – we need to create an expedited guest worker – path to citizenship program that begins in the country of origin and for which current illegal residents of the US are NOT ELIGIBLE to apply for.
The core issue is NOT that people enter this country illegally. The issue is that we give them such compelling reasons to do so. The issue is that we make entering the country legally a complex convoluted nightmare. The issue is that we almost always give priority to those who enter illegally at the expense of those who obey our laws and seek to jump through all the convoluted legal hoops required for legal immigration.
Illegal immigration is like many of our large problems. We don’t need to “solve” this problem. We just need to stop causing this problem.
I’ll raise you one. I think that if a person has ever been arrested for being here illegally, it should preclude them from ever becoming a citizen.
I’d be willing to bet that all of the people who think our borders should be open have a front door with a lock on it.
How could they want something for the country that they don’t want for themselves? If they were at all serious about what they propose, they’d let anyone walk into their house any time.
That seems extremely hypocritical.
VDH hits the nail on the head in his last paragraph. What the issue of illegals is really about is the ethnic tribalism of Mexicans who are essentially special pleading that they should be able, for a variety of specious reasons, to circumvent our laws entirely and bum rush the gates of entry to the United States. In this, they are being assisted by ethno-racial-tribalists in academia and the media who are, as a consequence, penalizing the legal immigrants from other nations who apply and wait their turn. The argument that the vast majority of Americans who support legal immigration but oppose Mexican gate-crashing should be making is that simple geographical proximity doesn’t get you a free pass; that such lawbreaking is making it harder to open up legal immigration to the US from nations and cultures who have a better skill set, and a real, legal claim to be here. The Mexicans and their La Raza cohort on the media should be called out for the racial-tribalists that they really are, and the hundreds of other ethnic groups who are being told to wait in line while the Mexican illegals ignore the law and jump the border should be encouraged to tell the Mexicans to shut up. Conservatives should be enlisting all the other groups, from Koreans to Filipinos, from Thais to Africans and Eastern Europeans, that the Mexicans are not going to help their path to citizenship, but are hellbent on helping their tribe only, and that once Mexicans run a city or state, they will keep out all potential ethnic rivals to their newfound spoils, exactly like they do in Mexico. The real racists here are Mexicans.
Perhaps we should offer the parents of “anchor” babies a path to voting rights. Since the baby cannot vote until (s)he is 18 and has done nothing illegal, the waiting period for the illegal parents should be longer.
As a baby boomer with friends whose names appear on “The Wall” in Washington, D.C. might I suggest a 21 year waiting period? Those men never got a chance to vote because they were drafted and died before their twenty first birthdays, the prevailing minimum voting age. It was this glaring inequity that led to the passage of the 26th Amendment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
I cannot support any illegal getting better voting rights than my late friends, the casualities of the war in Vietnam.
The baby did nothing wrong, so it won’t lose it’s citizenship. However, the mother goes home and the baby goes with her. When the child becomes a legal adult, the child can return to the US if it wants. The child can then start proceedings to bring the mother into the country legally.
Whatever you have to say about the mechanics of this law you have to admit that passing it took guts. Gov. Brewer and other proponenets of the bill undoubtedly knew they were touching off a media firestorm on the illegal immigration issue yet did it anyway. It’s been less than 72 hours and they have been called racists, bigots, anti-Christs, Nazis, facists and every other perjorative that the “progressive” media can think up.
With one blow Arizona has chosen to sever the Gordian knot of timidity, cowardice and political opportunism that the feds have created. Arizona is cutting to the chase on the basic question – Are the immigration laws of the U.S. to be enforced or not? Arizona has decided that they should be and has proposed a system of enforcement. Opponents will have to do more than simply cry “racist.” They will have to come up with a real solution that is better than the one proposed by Gov. Brewer.
As a retired INS agent I would just like to point out that all this was predictable 30 years ago. It’s the cultural and political equivalent of refusing to do the required maintenance on a new car and then being shocked–shocked! that it’s ready for the junkyard in three years. It’s like defying gravity; you can fake it a little but it’s going to hurt when the full effect kicks in.
I can’t speak for everybody, but most of us wept for our country, banged our heads against the wall, and drove our wives nuts in our frustration long ago. We retired as soon as we could because no one from the Oval Office to the housewife in the produce section gave a damn.
That seems to be changing–sort of like US isolationism about the time the hulk of the Arizona (!) settled into the mud of Pearl Harbor. Better late than never, but for God’s sake what were you thinking???
BTW I knew officers that were involved in the 1954 Eisenhower removals. Apparently he did a little more than play golf after all. He must have taken his oath of office seriously, unlike some people I could name.
And now, ladies and gentlemen, prepare to live in “interesting times”.
Quite a bit of heat has been evoked over the new Arizona law, but very little light. The key issue is public property, and who wields the rights over it.
If my knowledge of the Arizona enactment is accurate, an Arizona peace officer can’t just stop a law-abiding citizen and demand documentation of his identity. He has to have probable cause, as with all spontaneous (i.e., not directed by an arrest warrant) detentions. Probable cause amounts to suspicion of involvement in a crime, or imminent intent to commit one. So the Arizona police can’t just set up checkpoints and demand ID of everyone who walks by.
However, if an Arizona cop has reason to believe a crime has been committed or is imminent, and he spies a likely perpetrator on public property — e.g., a municipal sidewalk — he is within both right and reason to detain the individual and demand identification. Public property is a cop’s proper work venue, for public property is actually government property. Government holds all the rights to public property, nominally as trustee for the general public, but de facto as the owners thereof. The public police are the designated agents for securing the public peace and enforcing public norms.
Some might not like it, but that’s the theory under which public property — at one time called “the commons” — has been administered for as long as there have been government-employed police. Are there weaknesses in the arrangement? Of course, especially since police and prosecutors have been known to collude on matters of “probable cause.” But corruption of that sort almost always stems from pecuniary motives (here’s where the ardent Drug Warriors’ ears will prick up) and cannot be addressed until those motives have been undone or countervailed.
Limitations on police power and discretion must flow from the reduction of the amount of public property in our society, for as long as we acknowledge the concept of public property, we must concede that the government is the arbiter of what may and may not be done there, and by whom.
Francis,
Little disagreement from here. But, what about when the police (in any jurisdiction) set up a roadblock on “public roads” to check for intoxicated drivers? Pretty frequent here in CO. Obviously drunken illegals should be apprehended. Should the illegals testing sober in such operations be arrested?
Just askin.
If the Arizona law had been written explicitly encouraging
‘Ethnic Profiling’, those opposed to Ethnic Profiling would believe it.
However, the law does not call for Ethnic Profiling so those who still
believe it are clearly promoting an idea from their own heads,
and not from the facts. In other words, they believe what they want
to believe.
To suggest that Mexican-Americans who live in the U.S. legally would, because of the economic downturn, be willing to take jobs help by illegals is true; however, they will not take the jobs for what the illegals are willing to accept as pay.
To suggest that Mexico is more violent than Iraq is waste-full words. Mexico’s violence is not widespread. And, it is not directed toward the U.S. The battles we read about are between Mexican rival drug lords and their gangs.
In both of the cases above, the simple solution is to stop the incentives. In the case of illegals and jobs; enforce the laws against hiring illegals and, though there be some skepticism, eventually the illegals will have no motivation for crossing the border at all.
In the case of drugs, again, remove the incentive (profit from drugs) by teaching and encouraging Americans to refrain from using drugs. It may sound naive, but just image the profit from drugs going down the tube; none. Then those involved in drug trafficking will have no money to buy modern weapons and vehicles; they would have to work for a living.
Illegals are just that, individuals who are in the U.S. illegally — and should be, when discovered, removed to their own countries. Besides being a federal border, in Arizona the border is also a state border subject to the control of the state.
More people die in Mexico than die in Iraq.
As to teaching people to not use drugs. We’ve been trying that strategy for 50 years. It’s failed. There is only one way to remove the profits from drugs, and that is to make them legal.
The answer has always been quite simple -
1) Close (fence) the border
2) Allow interested aliens to apply for citizenship
3) Ignore the rest – unless they commit some crime – then deport them.
Eventually the problem will disappear.
The way it is now, the problem will only continue to increase.
This whole debate is transparent. Lefties will make up lame stories and excuses because they think these immigrants will vote more for them than republicans if given citizenship. That’s it. Period. Full stop.
Way back when; progressives were quite anti illegal immigrant… back when they pushed down union wages and were not seen as their own interest group that could aid them.
Liberals seem to be great admirers of things Mexican.Perhaps we could make them happy by re-writing our immigration laws and making them identical to Mexico`s.
Decent summary of the legislation, with a link to the actual bill that was signed.
Most of the discussion I’ve read and seen is in no way related to the actual bill.
http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/04/saturday-night-card-game-arizona.html
The article above is a reasonable and useful discussion of the overall landscape. It makes some good points. It’s just that the people who oppose the law don’t appear to have the faintest idea what is actually in the law.
illegal is not a sick bird.
Good one there Bill! Sometimes a little wit goes a long way, thanks!
That’s true, Let us know when you find some.
BOYCOTT CALIFORNIA !
Don’t buy anything made in California !
I agree with so many here.
I will add that it makes me angry to see people from Mexico etc..come here fleeing the oppression (whether jobs or anything else) and try to change America into the country they have just left!!!
if they are going to wave a flag let it be the Stars and Stripes!!!! and learn to speak English.. We have a big problem here with those that speak only Spanish and wave their Mexican flag on their house or car, it causes a lot of resentment.
Sharpton and Obama should have to live in a border town like a normal citizen.
they are only interested in a voting block. And protesting is how Sharpton makes his money. He would protest God if he made money.
As far as I know, the United States is the only country in the world that doesn’t protect its borders. In 1997, I was in Cyprus and wandered down to the water’s edge to dip my hand into the Mediterranean Sea. I was promptly chased off the beach by Turkish soldiers armed with machine guns. Again, in Ankara, Turkey, I was on a city bus that was pulled over by the local gendarme who went through the bus, passenger by passenger, asking for ID. I was a teacher at a private school in Ankara and, fortunately, the foreign teachers had been told to always carry their passports with them. I wasn’t offended by these incidences. It was simply Turkey protecting Turkey and its territory (northern Cyprus), like it should. When are we in the U.S. going to wake up and remember that we are a sovereign country and have a right and an obligation to protect our borders, which by extension, results in the protection of our own citizenry? I am sick and tired of the bleeding heart liberals who won’t stand up and defend their own country or its laws. This is radical, but if we started shooting illegals who try to cross over, this problem would evaporate almost immediately. Tough problems require tough solutions. By the way, go back to 1930 and seriously research all policies and laws that were enacted by liberals up till now. You will discover a road strewn with idiotic and insane decisions that have resulted in the political, economic, social, and cultural mess we still call the United States of America.
It looks like my post didn’t make it in, so I am going to try again, because I’d really like to see some discussion about the actual AZ legislation, instead of somebody’s fantasy.
Decent summary of the legislation, with a link to the actual bill that was signed.
http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2010/04/saturday-night-card-game-arizona.html
The article above is a reasonable and useful discussion of the overall landscape. It makes some good points. It’s just that the people who oppose the law don’t appear to have the faintest idea what is actually in the law.
Mexican illegals don’t respect US law because we’ve told them they don’t have to. We’ve pretty much told everyone in the world that they don’t have to respect us or our country. For forty years or more, we’ve played the “dumb dad” to the left’s squalling, arrogant, manipulative teenagers. It’s time to stop–if that’s even possible at this point.
I doubt very much if this Arizona law, promoted by politicians desperate to win upcoming primaries, is very likely to survive legal challenges; but the one thing it is pretty much guaranteed to do is further alienate the Hispanic voting block from the Republican party. That’s what happened in an earlier instance in California.
I’m not speaking as a concern troll. While in general I do believe that anything that hurts the Republican party is good for the United States; my concern is for the country, not you guys. The immigration issue is quite real, and I’ve encountered very few people left or center who don’t think we’ve got a right to control our border. Ginning up hysteria about illegals right now, however, is not explicable in rational terms. The Bush depression has actually lessened the flow of illegals to the U.S., and the notion that illegals are fueling a crime wave is simply and demonstrably false. Immigration is suddenly a pressing issue because of the need for a convenient enemy. That’s natural enough, but what makes it especially problematic is that the political groups that exploit this hysteria have a recent track record of disdain for human rights and practical contempt for the Constitution. Constitution? Hell, Magna Carta. They are also armed to the teeth. So even if I’m right that you are shooting yourselves in the foot by your nativist appeals, I’m not happy about the damage you can do in the meantime.
As I recall the English barons called King John to heel at Runnymede principally because he had proven to be a complete failure as a King. He had lost much of the English Crown’s French holdings; had antagonized the Church to the point of having England placed under interdict, and had engaged in unscrupulous methods to raise taxes. He was viewed as a weak, incompetent and spiteful man who was incapable of providing leadership. Clause 61 of Magna Carta, the “security clause”, gave a committee of barons the right to apply “distraint” to the King and sieze his lands and castles to make him change his policies. The development of English law after Magna Carta was chiefly concerned with the transfer of powers from the King to representaives of, first the nobility, and then the people. The Arizona legislature are the people’s representatives every bit as much as the U.S. Congress.
In effect immigration is an issue in which “the King” (in this case the federal government) has failed in its duty to his “subjects.” A vacuum has been created and Arizona has made policy and set up an enforcement mechanism to addres an important public interest that the feds refuse to address.They have this responsibility under state and federal law.
Finally, Article IV/Sect. 4 of the U.S. Constitution says….”The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive….
against domestic violence.” We are in the unique position of the federal government turning a blind eye to what is, in effect, a long-term, slow-motion invasion of a state. The term “invasion” is not hyperbole. As Dr. Hanson points out those “undocumented workers” (what a weasely term)are not coming here intending to give their allegiance to the U.S. but rather to obtain American benefits while continuing to exercise their allegiance to Mexico. If that isn’t an “invasion” then what is it?
Not so hot on habeas corpus though, are we? And the doctrine of the Integral Executive, i.e. that if the President says its legal, it is, is not a Democratic invention. Bush is the bumbling King John of this story.
When in doubt always retreat to the snarky ramparts of hate-Bushisms. Can’t see where even the evil Bush has a dog in this fight. During his time in office he proposed several, not very satisfactory, plans for immigration reform and was met by zippo cooperation from the other side. Even you should admit that habeas corpus is not even in play yet since nobody has yet been arrested under the new law. If the Big O’s administration wants to challenge the Arizona immigration law right now then they will have to do so on the rather narrow grounds that Arizona is infringing on an exclusively federal function. This will bring the riposte that securing the borders may be a federal function (actually there is overlappign jurisdiction but let that pass) but the feds have failed to do it. Given that failure Arizona must use its state soverignty to secure its own borders and welfare of its citizenry. The truly weak King here is the Obama administration which has the responsiblity of acting to secure U.S. borders but can’t quite trangulate the situation to their own advantage.
Arizona wake up, appease those states that disagree with your
illegal immigrant law, round the aliens up, put them on a bus and drop
them off at the State line. The neighboring States that disagree
with your policy should be more than happy to look after and support them.
this anti-american president that we have the misfortune to have in the wh is also divisive and racially obsessive. from the start of his campaign he sought to incite mobs of unthinking cult worshippers for his own political aggrandizement.
these illegals who are rioting in the streets of arizona, are exactly the reason we have to have our rule of law respected. it has never meant we don’t debate issues. we debate them through public discourse and through the courts throughout our history.
whoever heard of people from another country who came in illegally in the middle of the night over our borders, who have the gall to show up in our hospitals and receive funds and schooling, rioting as if we owe it to them.
this is just plain crazy. barry obama and his bizarro world is becoming very wearing very fast.
This is what I think is a seldom discussed key issue:
People are illegally in the US because they can find low paying jobs that suit them really well. In fact, they get paid well below minimum wage, in cash, and with no benefits. There are federal and state laws that mandate minimum wage and several benefits. What if people who hire illegal immigrants, besides being fined, are also made to pay the owed benefits and wage difference to the people affected whether they’re illegals or not?
Also, illegal immigrants, even those already deported, could be encouraged to sue their old bosses for owed benefits and wage difference up to minimum wage if they can prove they had worked for that person and for how long.
This should make people think twice before hiring illegals; and people who claim to care so much for the illegal immigrants will have a hard time trying to oppose it…plus you don’t need to make any new law or reform to implement it.
Johanns,
A class action lawsuit – escaped slaves suing the slavers?
I have always thought that there is a much easier solution. First we need to tie our visas to the needs of the labor market. The current visa numbers are fixed and it doesn’t offer our country a way to adjust to meet the needs of the labor market. High tech visas are gone in days, and many farms and other low skilled labor jobs are unable to meet their workforce needs. The Bureau of Labor Statistics could make an annual reocmendation on the number and types of visas and the congress could approve or disapprove of those recomendations.
Second, I think five years is a good cut off to allow folks to turn themselves in and apply for a work visa. I don’t think they should be allowed citizenship, becuase they broke the law and cut in line. Therefore, their punishment is a fine, or whatever, and that they can never apply for citizenship in the US. If they wish to self deport and get in line, then they can apply for citizenship, but if they stay, they can only get a work visa.
Third, I think you set up immigration/work centers in foriegn countries, that are privately run and will provide workers to the US. These centers would be certified by the federal government and would be responsible for background checks, immunizations, documents, etc… Employers could send a request to these centers and they would supply the workers. Entreprnuers, college graduates and others would be treated differently based on their skill set.
Ultimately, our illegal immigration problem is caused by not having visa numbers that meet the labor needs of our country. We put in place a system that ignored people crossing the border for jobs that paid low wages and/or cash under the table. We have now decided that this system is unacceptable and have begun to target illegal immigrants. We must find a way to solve the problem and effectively deal with those that came during a different time and other a different understanding.
So if Canadian drug gangs were violently marauding across our borders and the Canucks were kidnapping and murdering our citizens then North Dakota, Montana, Minnesota, Idaho, et al, would just have to suck it up? Is it racist to point out that when Canadians come here for health care they are expected to pay for it up front? Yes, even the ones for whom English is not their native tongue.
I have a good friend from Mexico City who has red hair and blue eyes. English, which she speaks perfectly, is her second language. So, when they speak of profiling, I’m not sure what they mean. Will they only be going after those with dark skin and who dress a certain way? If that is the case this law clearly has some constitutional issues.
This, I suspect, will turn out very bad for Arizona economically. In California, where I live, we depend very much on wealthy Mexican tourists coming here to blow their wad. That probably won’t be happening anymore in Arizona. Who do you think shops at all those fancy stores in Scottsdale?
Attrition by enforcement is the best policy, but there is no need to combine it with any type of amnesty. Just attrition will work.
@Federale: Enforcement will produce attrition, but political and corporate collusion preclude enforcement.
Meanwhile, the Leftist media — bereft of objectivity — actively cooperates with said collusion to tamp down opposition to open borders.
Until the people get pistol-packin’ pissed, there will be no improvement in this insane situation, only increasing social costs and antagonism — in essence, a state of perpetual turmoil.
I fully support San Francisco’s initiative to boycott Arizona.
My hope is that other communities in California adopt a similar position.
In Arizona we’ve been trying to figure out how to keep people from California out of our state for decades. Now San Francisco has shown us the solution.
The hysterics over the new Arizona law (that makes it illegal to be an illegal)
originate from people that do not live near the border.
Al Sharpton comes to Arizona to march around the block of his luxury hotel in Phoenix in front of TV cameras.
We invite him to march along the border for a few days instead.
Or, perhaps he could spend a shift in a community hospital where waiting rooms are sometimes filled with people who have no means, or intention of paying for the medical services they receive.
This isn’t about race or civil rights (for people who are not citizens of this country).
This is about security, and protecting our fragile economy from the demands of people who seek entitlement to our public services, but pay no taxes.
I have lived along the Arizona-Mexico border for over 50 years.
My wife of 30 years is 100% Mexican-American.
I’ve lived near, and worked beside many of the fine people from Mexico my entire life.
The situation along the border has changed over the last several decades.
There is a larger criminal element, more violence, a greater sense of desperation. Southern Arizona has become a dangerous place.
I think the situation is far more complex than good Americans who want everyone to be legal and good Americans who want everyone to be welcome…
On the pro-illegals there are a number of people who feel guilty for being American… as though its our duty to take care of all the tired and poor and wretched, by immigration or by getting past the border patrols. On the anti-illegal immigration there are an equal number of people that make arguments which are almost word for word from the Know Nothings screeds against the Irish, including “They’ll destroy our way of life!!!”.
Most of us seem to be somewhere inbetween, but its these poor deluded fools at the extremes which make the question such a hot button and big mess. I have spoken to liberals that clearly think the US is naughty and we should protect these poor poor people… I’ve talked to the other side who have made extremely racist and anti-Hispanic comments. What’s worse is that these two sides seem to feed off of each other. Each picking from their extremist kin to paint the other side as a bag of mixed nuts.
IMO, the Arizona law is making the same mistake that the Federal law makes… its aiming at the individual illegals. The right way to end this issue is to aim at the companies employing them.
Arizona should have passed VERY TOUGH laws against employing illegal immigrants. Then the cops could show up, demand to see the green cards/work visas/ssn etc and then they could collect the illegals and imprison the employers that are benefiting from the illegal immigration. Then there’s no racial profiling risk, no concern for legal immigrants or citizens of hispanic descent. No civil rights questions… just jack the bastards that make illegal immigration attractive.
Of course, the Dems won’t do that for fear of losing the Hispanic vote, and GOPers won’t do it because they’d risk losing business backers.
So instead we get nut jobs on both sides arguing nonsense and no real solution is in sight.
Bravo America.
It would seem the sensible thing is to calm down and let things play out and see how it all works. If it works well duplicate it , if not scrap it. Forget the boycotts , Sharptons, Nazi hysterics , or other forms of brinksmanship until you see what actually happens.
Obama was listening to Rev. Wright all those years as he appears to stir up racism with his media whores. He and they are obviously pathetic and that is the real opportunity here. All right thinking clear eyed people see that the media is lost and Obama et al do not care about the country or the citizens and this is what should be pounded home day after day using their own hate filled words.
Two points:
“Illegal immigrant” is an absurd term. To “immigrate” implies that you went through a legal process of immigration. “Illegal alien” is more accurate.
Also, if you replace the term “illegal alien” with “unregistered Democrat” you understand what the real issue is.
Ah, so the issue is anti-Republican voters . . . got it. No wonder you’re so afraid of “the little brown ones.”
24 states ALREADY have “stop and identify” statutes on the books. In 2004 the Supreme Court upheld Nevada’s “stop and identify” law (Google “Dudley Hiibel” supreme court). Furthermore the SC has previously ruled that:
(a) the police can stop you temporarily (a “Terry” stop)if they only have a “suspicion” that you have either committed a crime or are about to commit a crime; and
(b) may arrest you, handcuff you, and take you in and jail you if you refuse to provide ID when they request it IF state law makes refusing to provide ID a criminal act.
Still no plausible explanation why it is a racists, civil rights violation etc..to be asked for I.D.
Someone above said..(can’t find it)…that you show Id voluntarily several times a week just to cash a check etc If you go to a foreign country..you are asked for Id to cross a border etc.. If you don’t have it, go home..get it legally.
If the Hispanic voting block is so biased that they cannot recognize basic laws and protection of citizens then they will get what the deserve when the real citizens no longer provide for them…
Don’t panic illegals!! some how you will circumvent the law of our land due to wienerless people we have in our government…which is our fault ..
“If the Hispanic voting block is so biased that they cannot recognize basic laws and protection of citizens then they will get what the[y] deserve when the real citizens no longer provide for them…” Real citizens? Sally slipped up. She wasn’t supposed to let the cat out of bag that she thinks that Hispanics aren’t really citizens. By the way, do you have to be white to be a real citizen or can asians or blacks be real citizens under certain circumstances?
Exactly right, sally. Appreciate your comments muchly btw!
When they start seeing their lawns start to wilt from poor lawn care, their offices getting grubbier, and their Big Macs being poorly cooked and assembled, they’ll whistle a different tune.
Is that what Mexicans are good for?
How racist of you.
When they start seeing their lawns start to wilt from poor lawn care, their offices getting grubbier, and their Big Macs being poorly cooked and assembled, they’ll whistle a different tune.
Not necessarily. There are many unemployed “Coffee Party” people who hang out at Starbucks all day who are available to be hired.
Good Lord – And you say conservatives are racists? Your comment is a perfect example of the elitist line that illegals are only good for performing menial jobs that nobody else will do. An amazingly self-revealing remark.
And what makes you think that I don’t do my lawn, don’t clean my office space, or don’t cook my meals?
I can do quite a bit by myself. And there are plenty of people who are here legally who would love to get a job in this economy, even if it means cleaning offices and toilets, thank you very much.
And if you think that’s all Hispanics are good for, I have one thing to say. Vete al infierno.
10th Amendment, baby! And, BTW, when did it become a “human right” to come here illegally, suck up benefits, kill a few citizens, vote Democrat (multiple times, if registered the right way by ACORN) and complain vociferously (vandalizing public property, calling everyone who disagrees “racist,” etc.) when someone wants to stop that?
Annex Mexico, send in the FBI, ATF, DEA and whoever else is needed to clean the place up, send WalMart, Home Depot and Lowes down there to set up shop and hire the locals, open manufacturing plants that will pay (very low) taxes to the US intsead of Mexico and make the place somewhere Mexicans (er, Americans) will want to stay. problem solved — except for Guatemala…
So simple:
1. Finish the fence
2. Send all illegal prisoners back to home countries
3. Enforce immigration laws.
Results:
1. Less government spending
2. Higher prices for illegal drugs for Americans (so sad)
3. Higher prices for various foods & services.
When can we start?
You know the biggest obstacle to a fence? US landowners who don’t want their view destroyed. Get back to us when you’ve solved that one and we can talk about a fence.
That is solved, skeeziks; Ted is Dead, and Dunham’s teleprompter told him that his masters want to go ahead with Cape Wind.
Why would it turn out badly for Arizona? Why would any Mexican tourist/bssinessman object to possibly being asked to identify himself? The possibility existed every time I went to Japan. Somehow the police never hassled me, despite my being a very obvious foreigner.
Somehow, the police everywhere seem to figure out who not to hassle. I’ll bet the Arizona police can do that too.
The thing that I wonder about is California. I think the human rights and civil rights issues have been addressed. The downside for the Dems and Calif. is if the US gov’t fails to address the issue of National Security, it becomes liable for the cost. That is what California seems to want. We can’t manage and have no responsibility..send cash. Arizona feels the US should pay for the training to the officers. They may be right because the Feds don’t seem to know how to enforce their laws.
“Again, one should avoid immediate, mass deportations (it would resemble something catastrophic like the Pakistani-Indian exchanges of the late 1940s)”
Who is suggesting “mass deportations?” Why not caution against non-existent concentration camps too?
Stop rewarding people for breaking the law and they will “deport” themselves.
You Americans have been castrated. You can’t even protect your national borders.
I trust law enforcement in Arizona. They read in these spaces just as we do and they will continue to some extent – as always – to desire the good opinion of their fellows.
Profiling will not be required in order to have a major impact – purely behavioral indicators can be relied upon just as they are now. I have a teeny bit of experience here and can point out a few purely behavioral (perhaps a bit cultural) indicators that officers may rely on as an indicator:
1. More occupants in a vehicle than available seat belted seat positions (this differs from the mandatory seat belt law).
2. Over-loaded vehicles or vehicles with improperly secured loads.
3. Violation of existing trespassing laws.
4. Violation of littering laws.
Just being aware of these activities would be enough to give every LE officer in the state 10 or more hours of overtime every week. And you can be fairly sure that if an infraction is observed less than an hour before shift change, it will probably slide unless it’s egregious.
It’s rarely spoken of, but far more than most of us would suspect, someone that an officer has good reason to suspect is here illegally is simply let go for a more serious offense because the officer know that ICE will not respond. They know that they will probably see the offender again related to an offense where local policy mandates that the suspect be taken into custody.
Now we will see far fewer minor offenders having ‘more rights’ than established citizens and legal residents.
We should trust the Arizona cops to do the job they do so well, and already have the proper training to do.
Please support Arizona business. Buy things from Arizona and/or if you order something from a chain, order it from a store located in AZ. Hillbuzz has a thread that includes lots of comments that provide useful links to identify AZ businesses.
http://hillbuzz.org/2010/04/28/hey-do-you-like-to-buy-stuff-then-buy-stuff-from-arizona-its-buycott-time-baby/#comments
Don’t beg. It’s unseemly.
Third, Mexico is no help. Now it weighs in with all sorts of moral censure for Arizonians — this from a corrupt government whose very policies are predicated on exporting a million indigenous people a year, while it seeks to lure wealthy “gringos” to invest in second-homes in Baja.
This cannot be emphasized enough. Mexico wants the status quo to continue so they can dump their excess population on our side since the Mexican government knows that the country is too corrupt and backwards to be able to provide for their own people. Unless there is border security any sort of reform measure, even sensible ones, are a moot point.
Can you feel it? The tide turning? Your advantage slipping away? You think the Tea Party was something, wait till you see May Day. Will yo imbue the Hispanic protests with the same passion and nobility and grassroots birth that you gave the Tea Partiers? Or will you revert to your recent ways of decrying those who protest as whack jobs and criminals – jobless and lazy?
I knew you peaked too early, but I didn’t think you would embark on your path of self destruction so quickly. It’s premature, but I think you may actually lose more seat come November.
The moral of the story? Pride goeth before a fall.
Now, how about a margarita?
See, we’re on the side of America–and you’re an asshat. Now, go do some wheelies on your Rascal.
It hurts, I know. The euphoria of 9/12 seems so distant now. Those 2 million Tea Partiers have suddenly taken on their true numbers (70K). The Queen of Conservative Resurgent continues to reveal herself as nothing more than a celebrity opportunist. Rodeo Clown Beck’s ratings have dipped 30% in four months. Obama keeps racking up the wins. And now, could it be the coup de grace the hands of the little brown ones? Such an ignominious resolution to the flashpot of hubris that defined the gurgling sleeping giant. Fear not. There’s always 2016. Oops, I forgot Hillary. Make that 2024.
2024…thats when Sarah the grey haired grand dame with a deer rifle finally gets in. In the meantime, fascination with the I-95 triplets (McDonnell, Christie, and Brown) and now Blond Jan will stand in her way within the GOP.
I was going to post something in reply to this twit but I can’t do better than your pungent remarks.
70% of people in Arizona support this law. I suppose the numbers are comparable in other states. If you believe that GOP had more than 70% of vote before, and you are rejoicing that now conservative agenda is supported by only 70% – then I suggest you are a tad too optimistic, but I enjoy your fear.
For months conservatives wailed about health care being one-sixth of the economy. We should just leave it alone. It’s too big to mess with. Start over. And they lost.
Now conservatives are disenfranchising one-sixth of the population. We should just mess with them. They’re too brown to be American. Papers, please.
And you will lose.
Perhaps you should pick a new fraction.
I’m just wondering who is going to pick the tomatoes that go on the Burger King Whoppers all those conservatives with ample posteriors eat? They haven’t a clue as to the sleeping giant they just awoke. This is Arizona’s Prop. 187. It put the GOP into minority status here in Ca. in perpetuity. Can’t wait till Arizona goes blue!
see “baal” above….
I sense a certain amount of racism in some of the remarks. I am a conservative. I don’t think Mexican illegals are a collective threat. Death and drug cult members – yes. And how about the cult called Islam that none of us really wish to confront.
As far as ‘assimilation’ being a follow-on or somehow linked to the need to do away with illegal immigration, no. That is merely a semi-ritual reiteration of an American incantation. Canada, which I am sure can do a much better job on its immigration as well, is generally ‘multi-culturalist.’
Americans believe that they must oppose multiculturism to oppose Islam, for instance. No, they just need to oppose the fascist political doctrine called Islam. Hispanic nor other sub-cultures in the US threaten the US polity. BTW, assimilate into what, exactly? The Anglo-American culture is no longer dominant.
I’m more and more glad there is an Israel.
Yes, Republicans are in big trouble, because the Hispanics who already vote overwhelmingly Democrat will now…vote overwhelmingly Democrat. And the proponents of open borders and amnesty who vote overwhelmingly Democrat (with the exception of the WSJ editorial board) will now…vote overwhelmingly Democrat. The nobility of protesters waving Mexican flags, hammers and sickles, slogans calling for the return of the stolen Southwest, and pictures of Che and decrying the racism of the majority of Americans against law-breaking will certainly break the back of the Republican party once and for all.
The bigger the May Day protests, the better. Bring it on.
We don’t do ethnic cleansing in America. The Arizona law is fascist and they will pay a very big economic price even if it gets thrown out by the courts (and it will). They went there, now they will pay a price.
So, it is your belief that illegal immigrants are people of one particular ethnic group. Isn’t this racist?
Adding nothing to the debate with htese LaRaza talking points.
Would you please be honest and just come out for OPEN BORDERS so we can have an open debate?
You want no immigration law, completely open borders and free access to all benefits in the US system.
Be brave and SAY WHAT YOU MEAN!
94. – Can you feel it? The tide turning? Your advantage slipping away? You think the Tea Party was something, wait till you see May Day.
Yeah you can certainly feel it. In fact it’s an outgrowth of the same resentment that ignited the Tea Party movement in the first place. American’s want their country back. Again this isn’t a Republican/Democrat issue, it’s more like the elite ruling class against the middle class American’s. The folks who are interested in making a living rather than stuff like Colateral Debt Obiligations. The Dandy Fancy pants democrats profit from the below the radar illegal underclass as much as the republican meat processing exec. Give the middle class those well paying union construction jobs back. Let the foreign workers come in to work the lesser jobs and provide the honorable ones a path to citizenship. Also remember we want and need legal immigrants, it’s our heritage. But let them assimilate into our culture rather than us accommodate theirs.
Well, I am a democrat here in arizona, I can’t help but comment. I agree with the law, as a citizen here in AZ we are on the front lines of the immigration problem and I don’t think anybody from any state should have anything to say about it. I also see a lot of dem bashing in here. I mean really? Both sides are evil people, just give it up, not every dem is against this bill. But I am waiting to see how it pans out, how will they execute this. Great concept, but will cops be using the wording of the law to hall off anyone that forgets their ID at home. That is what I am worried about. Yes, I AGREE, Build a freakin wall, deport all the illegal, being an AZ resident I want these things to happen, because I am a very right handed dem. I am very liberal on lot’s of social issues, and many of my friends are against this law. I then ask them how they would feel if an undocumented, unlicensed and uninsured illegal immigrant hit their car and injured or possibly killed their family, then just ran back to mexico with no punishment, lot’s of people that live here change their tune.
And all of you that talk about the hard working laborers, well not all of them are here for legit work. They kidnap people, steal cars, smuggle dangerous drugs on the street and form vicious gangs. As far as I am concerned, if you don’t live in AZ, whether you are for it or against it, keep you opinion to yourself and leave to to the people of this state to handle their own affairs.
And chill out on the dem bashing, I can go on all day about how messed up the pubs are, but I don’t. It is unbecoming, you aren’t actually invoking any meaningful conversation when you do that. The Dems and the Pubs have completely screwed over this country equally, and nothing will ever change until every single major party candidate is voted out of the government, from the president to the lowliest of comptrollers.
So get over yourselves pubs, go have a beer and unwind, and come up with something better than Blah blah blah liberals and nag nag nag dems.
Grow Up!
Those of you that are so pious and talk about the illegals civil rights and such, should have to live on the Mexican border. Not Pretty.
Mexico has no “civil rights” for illegals in their country. You show ID on demand or go to one of the prisons. If you get caught coming back into Mexico again you get up to 10 years in the prisons.
The illegals come across the border to the USA and want to make America like the place they are running from. They fly the mexican flag over the US flag and other things. Why do it legally when you can get anything you want illegally and free here?
Make fun with your margaritas but there is trouble and no one is doing what needs to be done to solve it.
The funniest thing about the left’s view of Central and South America is how they refuse to accept that corruption exists on a massive scale there. I got sent to talk to the principal in high school (the only time I was ever sent to talk to him) my senior year because I had the gall to suggest that the political systems of many of the Spanish speaking countries in the Americas were corrupt. I only wish that the craziness in Mexico was going on while that was occurring, so I could have printed an article about it and let proved people wrong. The funny thing is that when people in my class called me racists, I told them that my great grandfather was fully Mexican, with a little Spanish Basque in him, so I am part Hispanic, even though I look nothing like it because my family kept marrying white people until I became a Euro Mutt.
Small-government conservatives and especially libertarians cannot in good conscience support the Arizona law. Illegal immigrants should not even exist as a concept, these are free market economic agents looking for a better life, just like your ancestors. Human traffickers are heroes in my book, looking to move people across an increasingly militarized US/Mexico border which is increasing in violence due to US foreign policy which makes drugs illegal. The tea party will embrace this law, or it will embrace an ethic of small government, but it can’t feign shock when a law that so much as orders communities to sue their police if they aren’t enforcing the policy ‘enough’ to sue their local police department, leads to mass detentions. If there are 500,000 illegals in Arizona as the figure going around seems to claim, then the solution according to these ‘small government’ conservatives is to lock up 500,000 people. Good job conservatives! You’re creating a government monster and betraying the American founding ideals. Noone who supports the Arizona law merits calling themselves members of a Tea Party if that label is supposed to evoke the concepts of the nation’s founders, down with the Know Nothings, out of here I say. Viva la libertad!
JR, in your eyes there should be no rule of law. You are falling into the trap of One World Government except all you want the Government to do is pass out welfare checks. Talk about a “no nothing” you need to get educated on the corruption in the government of Mexico. Their only export is their Citizens and we do not need anymore for now.
The Arizona governor should clearly state that its goal is to encourage and facilitate the transfer of illegal aliens to other communities in the US with liberal sensibilities and active sanctuary policies. This new law is therefore an act of pure altruistic compassion. I’m sure that Nancy Pelosi will be more than happy to host several undocumented immigrant families at her various homes in San Francisco.
This is a wonderful idea!!
It won’t happen…it’s the “not in my backyard” for our politicians
But It is a GREAT idea!!
Transfer people? I agree. Great idea. We’ll transfer all the racists to Arizona.
Make it easier for legal entry into the U.S. Our former pastor was from Korea and he shared with us all the hoops he and his family had to jump through, including having to go back to Korea to renew their visa, to be in the U.S.
For those illegals here, make the new forms available at the U.S. emigration center in their country of origin.
Excellent article. Well reasoned and well written, very readable and enjoyable. Raises the point that when a position is rational, reasonable and supported by the facts, the opposition can only discredit themselves when arguing contra. So I say, Bring it on!
They probably wouldn’t rally behind you but they might joke about you and a glass of water and a neck tie.
I will admit to not agreeing with conservatives on a lot of things but I completely agree with your article. I have been a legal immigrant here for 10 years from a country considered a very close ally (the UK). It is very distressing to me that there is a whole movement geared towards making things easier for somebody that smuggled him/herself over the Mexican border in an ice box than for somebody like myself. I pay the IRS enormous chunks of my income as taxes, pay social security levies for which I am not eligible and yet I endure endless lines and bureaucracy to maintain my legal status every other year.
VDH frames it well.
This is the OPEN BORDERS movement; no more no less.
Everything else is a smokescreen.
It should be referred to in that manner.
In Europe, it seemed their stagnant society together with their antipathy—heedless of their own social “class”—towards the nouveaux riches, resulted from everyone’s only interest in who you are. While in America, the source of our strength was everyone’s interest in what you do.
Now, the propaganda of identity politics here has caused the shift in awareness from the importance of what you do to the myopic view of only considering who you are. Illegal aliens are humans too, after all.
Conservatives disapprove of illegal aliens for what they do, while the one-worlders’ vision of illegal aliens consists only of who they are. So, easy it is, in their narrow mind, to see us only as racists, ethnic cleansers, and/or fascists.
I am not for an avenue to citizenship unless the illegal leaves the U.S., gets in line, and comes back only by following all of our current immigration laws. However, I do not find a road to the status of permanent legal residence objectionable. Thus, the illegal would be given a choice: either go back to where you came from and enter here legally or you can stay, pay a hefty fine for breaking our laws and then, after about ten years, you can receive a green card. In the mean time, the illegal, if he takes the latter option, would be given a legal provisional status. I think this would be a fair compromise because it would give them a legal status but keep them from ever attaining the right to vote. The ability to vote should only be a privilege of birth or a reward for following our laws.
#36
Liberals, always in love with their enemies! Always wanting to embrace the “bad guys”! Reminds me of certain women, attracted to the “bad boy” types and never learn, no matter how many times they end up battered and bruised.
For the ultimate distillation of this point, check this one out. And in case you hadn’t figured this out, she’s white:
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/04/23/we-are-not-your-weapons-we-are-women/
Nick, after seeing your post I suspect you really aren’t a Dem, but vote that way because you think you are or your parents voted Dem.
The left wants to say we are racists and this is based in hate. Of course none of the people screaming that live in AZ. Well I do and they can kiss my butt.
After talking to people about the issue over the years, what struck me is how compassionate people were towards illegal immigrants. There was much sympathy for their plight, but it is understood they are breaking the law and that cannot be allowed. Many of those same people have seen how they burden the state first hand.
I am a latino and the product of legal immigration and like many who support this law, I support LEGAL immigration. So when you see the Assosciated Press or others on the left trying to claim we hate all immigrants, know that they are lying in order to push their pro-illegal immigrant agenda.
Nick, after seeing your post I suspect you really aren’t a Dem, but vote that way because you think you are or your parents voted Dem.
The left wants to say we are racists and this is based in hate. Of course none of the people screaming that live in AZ. Well I do and they can kiss my rear.
After talking to people about the issue over the years, what struck me is how compassionate people were towards illegal immigrants. There was much sympathy for their plight, but it is understood they are breaking the law and that cannot be allowed. Many of those same people have seen how they burden the state first hand.
I am a latino and the product of legal immigration and like many who support this law, I support LEGAL immigration. So when you see the Assosciated Press or others on the left trying to claim we hate all immigrants, know that they are lying in order to push their pro-illegal immigrant agenda.
I am seriously considering writing to the Justice Department to ask them to give a list of laws that I can ignore and a list that I cannot ignore.
No. None of them should get special treatment over the millions of people around the world who want to come here but THEY go through the normal, legal proccess to get here. It is not about being fair to the ones here or us, it is about being fair to those who have, do or will do it legally. Fair is fair. No exceptions.
I speak Spanish fluently. Having lived 5 years (and counting) in Puerto Rico, I look at this immigration debate with a bit of a different eye. There, Puerto Ricans are lumped in with all the other “oppressed Hispanic” minority structures. Here, they are a holy terror to the lowly Dominicans. Racism between one type of Hispanic and another is overt, accepted, and normal. You should hear the things they say to Columbians and Venezuelans! Yet there in the States, Puerto Ricans are marchando in these marches with La Raza and so on. What sick hypocrisy. And now they want to make us a state? What a joke.
And not only that! There is also a long-term trend of illegal immigration to Puerto Rico from other Caribbean countries, especially the Dominican Republic. You probably have heard of many Coast Guard reports of people arriving to the west coast of the island from the Dominican Republic in made-up boats.
I remember something a Dominican preacher said a long time ago – “Yo no vine en yola. Yo pagué mi pasaje.” ["I didn't come here in a make-up boat. I paid for my plane ticket."]
The best summation I have yet to read about this mess. Kudos, VDH.
I finally left Arizona about ten years ago.
Anyone familiar with that formerly beautiful state is well aware of the disastrous effects of unfettered illegal immigration.
“La Raza” and the rest of the “Reconquistas” want THEIR land back. Well, I have an idea for them:
Buy a compass, find due South, and start walking.
~(Ä)~
“Why Wave the Flag of the Country I Don’t Wish to Return To?”
Having trouble keeping to the topic, eh? Hint: It’s about a law in Arizona. The law has nothing to do with remittances, or flags, or schools,or any of that, at least that part of it that is controversial.
The part that is controversial is about whether Az will turn into a place where, minding your own business, a cop can ask you for your papers.
That’s the point, VDH.
Do try to keep up. It’s not that difficult to read American papers.
VDH great essay.
my question is how did the politicians ever get to the point that they never have to answer to the voters ?
is there really an honest vote in the USA ..because it doesn’t hold that these politicians would re-elected if the public really was against their policies. ..and it does seem that they have been for ever.
…to me it is the same thing that muslims get everyone to not criticize them or their religion because they are bullies.
stockholm syndrome or something else.
An article in the National Post in Canada describes that politicians do have to be accountable – anecdotaly that is. Laura Bush, former First Lady says at a G8 summit in 2006 I believe, she believes the whole group – ‘W’, herself and the 8 staff with them – were poisoned. They were extremely ill, and two of the staff still live with effects of what they said was a bad flu virus. One of the aides was so sick he couldn’t move, and to this day, cannot walk.
This is the first time I’ve heard this storey, and it’s unclear exactly what happened, but it’s plausible.
That’s the extent to which people will go, assuming this storey is true. That the state continues to increase its reach may cause the same kind of actions against politicians. The founding fathers are evidence of having to be accountable insofar as the majority of them died unatural deaths. Let’s hope there’s an improvement in the listening and considerations before some awful event happens. Does not need to get to that, but the current characters are behaving very badly indeed, such that there will be real unrest in many pockets of US populations, if not more than pockets.
To extend the logic of the arbitrary 5 years and you get to stay argument: If you rob a bank, dont pay your tax, shoot your mother-in-law, or congressman, etc. etc, then you “win” and dont pay the price of someone who commited the crime yesterday. If someone breaks into your house then you must provide free food, education, medical care, and eventually adopt them as part of your family and qualify them for all benefits of your actual family members. Oh, and they also get to vote democrat to ensure continued entitlement. What a stupid country we have become – thanks to the liberals who want to make themselves feel good by spending and wasting other peoples money while generating votes at any cost. Time to take back the country by voting out ALL incumbents and exporting all illegals. NOW
Until the open borders crowd publicly denounces LA RAZA for the RACIST GROUP IT IS, they better not DARE continue the fraudulent accusation that Americans are RACIST because they want to keep out …RACISTS! A group that insists we are racist, insists on speaking its own language, spits on Americans and America, speaks openly of reconquering what they believe to be rightfully theirs, a group who sends back billions to their homeland and sucks away the property and possessions of American citizens and boasts of it had no MORAL AUTHORITY TO ACCUSE ANYONE OF RACISM. The ugly truth is their accusations of racism are a clever sleight of hand to deflect much needed attention from their blatant racism. After the carnage that is being inflicted on OUR INDIGENOUS POPULATION the accusations about the new law being racist are a red herring and are meant to drive the debate to the point where the actions of the LA RAZA RACISTS are ignored. At this point they should be told we don’t give a damn about your accusations. Your words are nothing compared to the destructive actions and the menace which is being aimed at the society of Americans living in Arizona. Bravo to the Arizona State government for standing up and having guts. Imagine how many people would still be alive today if this type of action had been taken in all fifty states decades ago. I know of three people who were brutally murdered at the hands of illegals. They should be alive today had THEIR REPRESENTATIVES given a damn about THEM and not some stupid idea of “fairness”. The left wing is about to see its voter base being deported. That’s the real reason the RACE CARD is being played. Tough sh-t.
Hansen, I just don’t understand your position on immigration at all. You oppose illegal immigration of unskilled Mexican Indians buy you’re all for skilled immigration from Asia. Why?
1. Our economy is in a deep recession and we don’t need an endless supply of skilled people. The tech sector is not hiring, and US citizens in high tech are being laid off. So why do we need more foreign techs. Well, I’ll tell you why. Guys like Bill Gates need bodies. Like the scheme where young Mexicans in their 20s and 30s are hired to work hard without complaint and drive down wages and the older workers are laid off and pointed to the social service agencies, US tech workers find they are at the end of their careers at 35 because that’s when companies must either pay them serious money or lay them off. Usually companies lay them off and bring in young H1B workers.
2. China has trained a glut of engineers and so has India but proof of their skills isn’t confirmed by an IQ or skills test at the port of entry — US immigration officials just accept some bogus documentation that they are skilled. Most aren’t, but once they are in the country they get exploited by their co-ethnics, work under the table, and never leave.
3. Foreign doctors trained outside the US are neither as skilled nor as ethical as doctors trained in the US. One wonders how many foreign doctors in the US let patients die due to negligence or because they just couldn’t be bothered. Many foreign doctors can’t empathize when treating patience who aren’t either their own race or social class — particularly doctors from the Middle East or India.
4. America is full up. We have 300 million people and every city with a population over 1 million experiences hellish traffic every day in our country. Even mass transit is getting extremely crowded and uncomfortable. Exurbs are spring up 60 miles from urban centers. Now we have 10% employment which may end up the new normal.
So explain to me: if our country doesn’t have the economic resources to employ are the citizens who want to work, or the highways and transportation system to allow the economy to operate efficiently, or adequate hospitals to treat the sick and elderly, or adequate amounts of open space for people to just recover their sanity and a sense of peace. Then why do we need any more immigration, legal or otherwise?
This is where the Republicans lost the Black vote and will lose the Hispanic vote as well. Everyone knows we will never deport all of the illegals or enforce the fines against the companies that hire them so the Republicans should get behind them and go for the limited amesty but go one step further than the Democrats. When You do not speak English it limits your earning potential. The Democrats are going to go with the plantation, telling them that they can’t get good jobs because rich white people are keeping them down. Republicans should be promoting the idea of the American dream. Most of the first generation Hispanic that comes here work, raise their family and are devout Christians. It is as their children and grandchildren that are taught to just accept the facts and stay on the Government Plantation. Republicans HAVE to give them a way out and up or we will never again have control of anything and the United States will become United Socialist States of America.
God Bless the United States
I’m a liberal and totally endorse the humane practice of hiring illegal aliens to do my manual labor. But wait, if I hire illegal aliens for work Americans won’t do that might be construed as racist and demeaning to my oppressed brother. So in the name of fairness I will only hire white people to do my manual labor so as not to offend anyone in any size, shape or form. I feel so much better now.
This is just another liberal playbook issue to keep power. Do you think the liberals want all these legal or illegal aliens in the country? Of course not. They say they do to get votes by branding those who support obeying the law as racist. Its just like they want all the forced busing of minorities and say no to school vouchers, but they dont want their own kids around the minorities or trouble making class.
All these issues combined with the ever growing information superhighway have trained those who want things done correctly to question their own moral compass.
The Dems are winning and soon it will be hip to say you are a socialist and then comes the marxist or authoritarian leadership.
Its playing out all before our eyes.
lee1947, what about the American dream for citizens on the left hand side of the IQ Bell curve. These folks, which include a super majority of blacks, are suffering a 25% employment rate around the country. Deporting illegals is a lot easier than you think — they know they are doing wrong, and the example of a few thousand rounded up will cause thousands more to self deport. We have 12 – 20 million in our country now because of the Reagan Amnesty. It’s time to crack down.
To repeat myself, blacks DO have a dog in this fight: they are the ones most heavily impacted in the job markets and on the streets by the Latino invasion.
Republicans shouldn’t bother pandering to Hispanics. Hispanic immigrants no matter what you promise them or try to do for them will vote for the expansion of the welfare state because it enriches them — John McCain knows this all too well after the last presidential election. Latinos don’t come to the US for education and advanced job training; they come for the kind of menial jobs they do in Mexico or Guatalombia, but at a higher rate of pay and with a social safety net, including welfare, WIC food stamps and section 8 vouchers for their US born kids — who have demonstrated zero academic ability and social mobility. What the heck does this have to do with the American Dream? Send these people back to wealthy Mexico, and make their corrupt society care for them.
“Finally, legal immigration should be reformed and reflect new realities.”
The real reality is that we do not need any immigration. Every immigrant coming in, and those that are here, are in direct competition with Americans for jobs. The United States has 1.1 green cards given out each year. We have 1.2 million H-1B visa holders taking American jobs in the computer industry, saying there is a “shortage” of talented computer programmers. Did India ever put a man on the moon, develop the PC or doing anything else notworthy?
This article, while justifying the law, at the end turns internationalist, globalist, free trade and toward massive immigration.
Do we really want a nation of 450 million people in sixty years. And as we have seen, the immigrants line up with the Democrats and vote for more, guess what, “immigration.” When did the United States become a free lunch?
Immigration always improves the lot of a poor person (or anyone else) coming into a wealthy developed nation. They always hurt the residents. This is not a nation of immigrants, but a nation built on the legal system created by our founders. If no Irish, Polish, Russians, Hispanics, or others came into the United States, it would not be worse off, it would have simply had fewer people today.
The last forty years have seen more people come into the United States than any other previous time. One out of six workers in the United States is foreign born. When is enough, enough?
What we really need is an IMMIGRATION MORATORIUM and a repeal of all special visas. The biggest danger to America is legal immigration. It is far more dangerous and permanent than illegal immigration.
Paul Streitz
CT Citizens for Immigration Control
Author: American First; Why Americans Must End Free Trade, Stop Outsourcing and Close Our Open Borders.
I have known many people from Mexico and South America both in the Marines and the Navy and the other branches, from all over and I found them to be very patriotic, honorable and very hard working “Americans”.
Let in the Mexicans. Deport the liberals. Win-win.
Professor Hanson,
I live in Israel and have no dog in this race.
But please permit me to remind all of you that your country went to war with the Mexicans in 1848, conquered the country, and then did not have the sense to annex it. You made the exact same mistake that Napoléon made with respect to Prussia.
You didn’t annex Mexico – you humiliated them instead. And now you are facing the same thing the French faced. The Mexicans are going to war with you; and just like the Prussians did to the French, they are winning. The difference is that the Prussians did it all in conventional fashion and defeated Napoléon at the Battle of Nations in 1813. And because none of you is willing to admit that borders are not made of steel, but can change (even though you yourselves annexed half of Mexico), you are unable to recognize the creeping reconquista of your southwest.
Since the Mexicans don’t have nuclear weapons, they are relying on your own greed and guilt to strangle you. And they are succeeding. The Mexicans are fighting a “war like no other”. They are using successfully the demographic bomb the South Syrian Arabs would like to use here – and are unable to.
This has nothing to do with conservatism, liberalism, bigotry, racism, law, immigration or any of the topics that you have been touching on in this comment thread. This has to do with conquest – of your territory by a hostile nation that wants to loot your economy and make it impossible for you to rule in the southwest altogether.
Arizona – Doing the Work the Feds Refuse to Do
Arizona, by enacting a strict illegal immigration law has decided it wants less murders, kidnappings, assaults, rapes, human smuggling, drop houses, home invasions, drugs, welfare recipients; and fewer illegitimate users of their schools, health care and judicial systems. What’s not to like and cheer on about that?
MUCH MORE at: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/04/arizona_just_doing_the_job_the.html
IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR……
IF YOU GO INTO RED CHINA ILLEGALLY, YOU’RE CONSIDERED A SPY AND GET HARD PRISON TIME…..
IF YOU GO INTO GERMANY ILLEGALLY, YOU GET A HEFTY FINE, WORK IT OFF OR PAY IT OFF, THEN DEPORTED………
IF YOU GO INTO ENGLAND ILLEGALLY, YOU ARE JAILED IMMEDIATELY AND DEPORTED………
IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY….
BUT, IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. .. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET:
1. A DRIVERS LICENSE
2. A SOCIAL SECURITY CARD
3. FREE WELFARE
4. FREE FOOD STAMPS AND
5. FREE HEALTH CARE?
This afternoon I drove through the wealthiest community in my Midwest state, with million dollar homes and landscaped traffic dividers…maintained by dozens of brown skinned folks who could never afford to live in the community. Basically slaves.
The borders have been open for decades and will remain open so long as our elites enjoy the benefits of slave labor. I guess we proles need to learn to habla espanol and just accept our new neighbors. The fix is in.
It seems to me that any serious attempt to deal with this must have five parts:
1. Stiff enforcement at the border (ie, the fence) to reduce the supply side.
2. Stiff penalties for employers who hire illegals, to reduce the demand side.
3. A serious, biometric national ID card, so that employers can reliably and efficiently comply with #2.
4. Increasing the quotas for legal immigration, which have been set unrealistically low for years in the knowledge that they aren’t real (with rules that ensure that immigrants will be gainfully employed or supported by sponsors…not become wards of the state).
5. Once all that is reliably and solidly in place, and ONLY after it is reliably and solidly in place, a general amnesty for all illegals who have been here for five years, are gainfully employed, have no criminal record (other than illegal entry), pass a security check to weed out terrorists, and have a functional command of English. Anybody else gets deported to their country of origin.
Anything less is just more of the same…
A couple more points on #5:
I keep hearing people call for mass deportations, but frankly, I don’t think that is possible. Even if (and its a big if) you could find all these folks, you’d be talking about a 21st century version of the trail of tears. Are Americans really in favor of killing a tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people? What about the kid who was brought here as a baby and is now 25? He needs to be punished for breaking the law? He’s not a “real” American?
Anybody who calls for mass deportations hasn’t really thought things through and I don’t take them seriously…
What’s not to like about illegal immigrants? They work for pennies on the dollar, they can be exploited, exposed to chemicals and carcenogens while working, and they can’t complain. They have to rely on hospital charity. This is a great deal for business, and it is supported by La Raza and other liberal groups. If we keep them supplied with cigarettes, they may even die by the time they are 60, befor they are a drain on Medicaid. Since they are illegal, they have no rights and no one to complain to. We can send them all to San Francisco, an open border city, where they can get free medical care and only the Californians have to pay for it.
If we insist that they come here to work legally, they would have to be afforded some protection, and nobody would want that? Would they?
In case your wondering about my above comment, I was being facetious. I am against illegal immegration precisely because the workers are exploited. It is better to have them come in legally, receive their green card, and be protected in a working environment. If they are undocumented, they will be exploited. If they are documented, they have recourse to their grievances.
Barry Davis
April 29th, 2010 | 9:27 pm | #18
Black Voters Taking one for the Team?
Compare:
The U.S. economy added 162,000 jobs in March, but the unemployment rate held steady at 9.7 percent, according to new figures released by the Labor Department Friday.
On the whole, the economic news was mixed, but for African Americans, it was particularly troubling. The unemployment rate for whites held steady at 8.8 percent compared to February and went down for Asians from 8.4 percent to 7.5 percent. But it rose to 16.5 percent for Blacks from 15.8 percent. Hispanics showed a slight increase as well from 12.4 percent to 12.6 percent.
On the other hand:
How Illegal Immigration Hurts Black America
With national unemployment hovering around 10 percent and black male unemployment at a staggering 17.6 percent, it’s just not true that undocumented workers are doing the jobs that we won’t do.
By: Cord Jefferson | Posted: February 10, 2010 at 6:36 AM
Here is the key paragraph:
Despite President Fox’s assertion, of the Pew Hispanic Center’s top six occupational sectors for undocumented immigrants (farming, maintenance, construction, food service, production and material moving), all six employed hundreds of thousands of blacks in 2008. That year, almost 15 percent of meat-processing workers were black, as were more than 18 percent of janitors. And although blacks on the whole aren’t involved in agriculture at anywhere near the rates of illegal immigrants—a quarter of whom work in farming—about 14 percent of fruit and vegetable sorters are African-American.
For their efforts, African Americans were paid a median household income of $32,000 in 2007. In the same year, the median household income for illegal immigrants was $37,000.
Read the whole article at
http://www.theroot.com/views/how-illegal-immigration-hurts-black-america
Well all i have to say is put a wall up 60 feet and electrify it. Those fing illegals come into this state and live off our health benefits and thier knocked up 15 girl friends do it too bc/ they never went to school to better themselves so they can get the poor ppl’s benefits. When myself who really needs benefits and am disabled now, can not get them b/c I make too much on disability b/c i went to college to better myself. I should have been a dirty border jumper like them and then the world would be at my feet. No need to work for anything. Obama will give it to me for free as along as I’m illegal and stupid.
So YOU are the one who graduated college in Arizona. Wow. Well done.
JR, “Small-government conservatives and especially libertarians cannot in good conscience support the Arizona law.” Wanna bet? JR, I agree with some libertarian positions, but the movement completely loses me on illegal immigration. Here is a simple question for you: do you support the “right” of the United States to exist as a sovereign nation? If ‘no,’ what are you doing here? If ‘yes,’ then you must support enforcement of the border. Why? Because a nation-state, by definition, cannot exist without borders, language and culture (as one well-known radio host has it). A country without enforceable borders is no longer a nation; it is a collection of tribes ala Afghanistan or similar. Moreover, if we adopted libertarian-style open borders tomorrow, other nations would still be enforcing their right to refuse entry, just as Mexico does on its southern border with Central Americans from Guatamala, Honduras, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Panama, and so on. No other nation in the world allows completely free immigration, only the USA is expected to do so, by pie-in-the-sky types like yourself.
“Illegal immigrants should not even exist as a concept, these are free market economic agents looking for a better life, just like your ancestors. Human traffickers are heroes in my book…” Yes, all illegal immigrants are people, and some are good folks seeking a better life. However, our nation can no longer support the enormous burden imposed upon it by the stream of people coming here from south of the border. I’ve been both an inner-city school teacher, and a healthcare professional, and illegals are currently hastening both areas toward bankrupcy. Mexico is using Uncle Sam as a giant safety valve, a means of exporting its social problems rather than take the hard steps to deal with them at home. What incentive does Mexico have to address its problems when they can ship them to Arizona or some other U.S. destination? Answer: none. And let’s not forget about the billions in remittances sent back to Mexico each year, a nice source of hard currency for Mexico City and the oligarchs.
We are in agreement about the so-called “War on Drugs,” which has been a costly failure.
Anchor Children:
Australia solved this problem tow decades ago when it legislated that citizenship by birth applied only to children where at least one of their parents had the legal right to permanent residence in Australia through, citizenship or legal migration. This cut off an avenue whereby people from overseas, mostly Asia, deliberately visited Australia to give birth to their children, who as Australian citizens by birth became “anchor children” for the parents were they to consider migration to Australia in the future and the children themselves acquired all the rights of citizenship including the right, at any time, to access all the educational opportunities on the same financial terms as those of Australian citizens/legal permanent residents despite the fact that their parents lived overseas and paid no taxes in Australia.
And how about PM Gordon Brown’s gaffe this week for labelling a quaint pensioner a bigot for asking Brown about immigration from eastern Europe. Many have read this storey and it’s evidence of Hanson’s argument, first hand.
This is not confined to US politics. It’s a kind of ignorance arbitrage. A population that fails to recognize the newspeak approach of their political leaders that translates into voters misconstruing the ones deploying the newspeak as compassionate – until the mic that remained on in the limo catches the prime minister naming Ms. Duffy a bigot.
Are events like this enough to have people pay
attention to language. Jacques La Cann would hope so – language speaks you. Mess with it, and it messes with oneself.
In a macro sense, how true is this as a country?
It is as though the US government and the leadership class is asking constitution, what constitution? The first imperative of a government of the people is to protect its people. If I use someone elses driver’s license and social security card to get a job that’s identity theft. The same is true for an undocumted worker (or illegal alien if you will).
and hasn’t been since the early ’70′s.
Americans are so ignorant about this, but are happy to be swept up by the hate.
No longer allowed to say anything about the criminal negro underclass, the hatred is now spewing onto Mexicans.
I find talk of deportation amusing, if we want the illegals to quit coming here, take away the reason that they are coming here, jobs, anchor babies, free ride on our system. Prosecute those who hire illegals and the future employers will do their home work and won’t be hiring illegals. Do away with the anchor baby scam and severely limit medical. Illegal shows up to have a baby or for medical, jail and deport them immediately.
Next, the drug runners, cutting down on illegals will slow that and if we got serious we could stop the drug smuggling, but it isn’t polite to put these poor starving mexicans in jail. Right! Tell that to Sheriff Joe.
Finally found a few, 69. chambers, 109. Dan, 122. scythe & 130.Ruvy, have referred to what I consider the real agenda- the unmentioned elephant in the room. Lived a lot of years in LA. Some research links documenting primer 101 for those not familiar with the facts:
Agendas of MEChA, La Raza, MALDEF, and Southwest Voter Registration Projects
http://michellemalkin.com/2010/05/01/may-day-reconquista-returns/
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/race_industry/true_agenda_audio.html
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/hispanic.asp
There are more, but this is a start. Just remember Soros owns factcheck.org before the Kos/Huffpot trolls get too excited.
I agree with GDT. If the unemployed would be willing to do the work that the illegal Mexicans do, the illegals would surely return to Mexico. If the American citizens would be willing to work as we were required to do in the 30s and early 40s and as VDH described the work ethic of his youth , there would not be the present problem of illegal Mexicans. Are we as individuals doing anything to help solve the problem? Complaining and voicing our opinion in writing will not get the job done, unless we voice our opinion constantly to our representatives in government.
50. GDT
This issue had always amazed me. It is like most issues that involve big government. Government does not need to “fix” the illegal immigration issue – government simply needs to stop causing the illegal immigration issue. The problem isn’t “them” it is “us”! We do not need to deport people in mass or even build a wall or fence. We just need to take away the reasons people come here illegally (that we have created) and the situation will fix itself! Here is a complete simple solution to the illegal immigration issue is 5 steps:
1. If you knowingly hire an illegal alien (ie fail to observe I-9 requirements or accept documentation you know to be fraudulent) you go to jail – first time. This should be a criminal issue. Create clear standards for due diligence and then hold the person who signs the I-9 on behalf of the employer personally accountable. (This would fix 90% of the problem overnight.)
2. End “automatic citizenship upon US birth”. End the flight to indigent maternity wards (at 8 months 3 weeks) – by taking away the reason people do it. If the mother is not a US citizen – then a baby is born with the mother’s citizenship status.
3. Require an I-9 type check for all social services. If you are not here legally no welfare, no drivers license, no US public schools, no unemployment no anything. We do not need to ask employees of these agencies to report anyone. We simply require I-9 type citizenship documentation for a favorable determination.
4. Prohibit anyone who is currently here illegally from applying for any type of legal status (work visa, citizen ship etc). Require all applications for entry to begin in the country of origin. We must stop placing people who enter the country illegally in front of the line. Preference must be given to people who apply to enter the country legally.
5. Finally – after accomplishing #4 above – we need to create an expedited guest worker – path to citizenship program that begins in the country of origin and for which current illegal residents of the US are NOT ELIGIBLE to apply for.
The core issue is NOT that people enter this country illegally. The issue is that we give them such compelling reasons to do so. The issue is that we make entering the country legally a complex convoluted nightmare. The issue is that we almost always give priority to those who enter illegally at the expense of those who obey our laws and seek to jump through all the convoluted legal hoops required for legal immigration.
Illegal immigration is like many of our large problems. We don’t need to “solve” this problem. We just need to stop causing this problem.
April
VDH pointed out:
“That raises interesting questions: Does the state contravene federal authority by exercising it? If the federal government does not protect the borders of a state, does the state have a right to do it itself? The federal government has seemed in the past to be saying that if one circumvented a federal law, and was known to have circumvented federal law with recognized impunity, then there was no longer a law to be enforced.”
That reminds me of the United State’s decision to enforce the UN protocols vis-a-vis Iraq–to the dismay of the UN! Interesting–if not telling–that the same polarities for and against the enforcement then are pretty much made up of the same voices that are for and against the enforcement of federal immigration law now.
Also interesting is that the polarity which is dismissive of the written rules (both in the case of Saddam’s serial violations of them and of the illegal entries into the country) is the one which is the most litigious and tends to pile up litigation after litigation over an existing litigation to dilute it (in lieu of revoking it).
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