Amnesiatics
That Was Then, This is Now…
The current furor over the three water-boarded terrorists is right out of the old Greek idea of excess leading to hubris leading to nemesis leading to destruction. Do we really wish to revisit 2002?
In that seminal year 2002-remember Bali, the intifada bombings, the 800 Russian hostages, John Lee Mohammad, Jose Padilla, the Buffalo Six al-Qaedists, and the lingering fumes from Richard (“shoe-bomber”) Reid and the anthrax letters?-Democrats were chest-thumping about keeping us safe. To be fair, everyone was. Bush had a 62% approval rating, and gained in the mid-term elections that hinged on matters of national security. The new Department of Homeland Security was having us remove shoes and throw away liquids from our carry-on luggage.
Meanwhile everyone from Thomas Friedman to Andrew Sullivan was advocating an invasion of Iraq to remove Saddam. Democrats were edgy, as the Clinton era was framed as a period of “firewalls” and futile cruise missile attacks that had only empowered al Qaeda. A majority of the Democrats in the Congress, worried about the upcoming November elections, voted in October for 23 reasons to go to war against Iraq. Harry Reid was giving fire and brimstone speeches about going into Iraq. Clinton was toxic, deemed dallying with Monica as our enemies plotted their attacks.
In this context, the country was convinced that radical Islam was on the rise, that another 9/11 was inevitable, that genocidal tyrants like Saddam were whipping up anti-American feeling in the Middle East, and that a popular George Bush was doing all that he could to keep us safe-barely.
So Nancy Pelosi and Jay Rockefeller were briefed on the “enhanced interrogation techniques” that led in 2002 to the waterboarding of the first of three murderers in Guantanamo. Neither at the time objected to the practice.
The Strange Case of Eric Holder
Here’s what Eric Holder-set to examine whether or not to depose, indict, whatever Bush’s legal advisors, told CNN in January 2002 about Guantanamo inmates:
“It seems to me you can think of these people as combatants and we are in the middle of a war. And it seems to me that you could probably say, looking at precedent, that you are going to detain these people until war is over, if that is ultimately what we wanted to do.” Later in 2002 Holder elaborated, “One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located. Under the Geneva Convention, you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people…[They] are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war…Those in Europe and other places who are concerned about the treatment of al-Qaida members should come to Camp X-ray and see how the people are, in fact, being treated.”
Again, that was 2002, when the Democrats, like the Bush administration, were desperate to show the public that they too could stop another 9/11 and keep us safe.
Ouch.
I was all thrilled at what an awesome postthis was. Well, in what I experiencing as being an awesome post… Anyway. =)
Then you had to get all depressing-like at the end there.
: /
I am only slightly optimistic concerning the future. The recent Rasmussen poll showing only 52% of Americans believing in capitalism is downright scary. By all rights, the vast majority of the citizenry should be outraged by the leadership of the Obama administration. But that appears not to be happening. There may be no turning back if Obama gets his way on national medical care. The United States could be finished. Clockwork Orange might be just around the corner. Racial and ethnic strife will become the norm. The vile David Duke types will be empowered.
Everything would have been fine if the first dark skinned president were a center-right politician—but he isn’t. Obama is instead someone who threw his own white grandmother under the bus. He is uncomfortable with white people, and does not hesitate to employ the race card. He is merely a more sophisticated version of Al Sharpton, Jr. May God help us.
Thanks for keeping the focus on the national security shenanigans. It’s becoming increasingly clear that those who led the chorus against Bush are perfectly okay with the same procedures as long as one of their own is in charge.
One wonders, then, what the real difference is between the two presidencies, Bush’s vs. Obama’s, as far as the most vocal crtics on the left are concerned – it clearly isn’t national security, and it couldn’t be government spending, since Bush increased it vastly everywhere he could think of.
Immigration? Nah, Bush himself echoed the calls for “Comprehensive Reform”, which was never really distinguished from flat-out amnesty in a meaningful way.
Perhaps it’s abortion rights? This seems to be the only item that doesn’t generate hysterically hypocritical flip-flops – at least Obama openly admitted he was ducking the question (“Above my pay grade”) rather than pretending to have it both ways, as he has on so many of the other issues.
Thanks again, Dr. Hanson; your thoughts, as always, are a constant beam of light on a horrendously murky present.
Sullivan has become as dull as Wanda Sykes.
I’m really haunted by your observation that we’ll urge our children to seek safe government jobs instead of engaging in the private sector.
I was born in 1966, and accordingly (yes, you can attribute this to my time of birth, sadly), am hostile towards government jobs.
That’s not to say I’m against government workers and out to belittle them and to demean them. No! I view them as necessary and functionary jobs with good purpose. But you should really be focused on expanding the national “pie” if you can.
Additionally, in my age set every Washington government worker will tell you the tale of how they nobly opted out of the lure of higher pay from the private sector. The government job has been one they’ve borne as a cross, they’d essentially say, out of a sense of duty. I have no reason to disbelieve them. They are reflecting the common wisdom I grew up with, that government jobs were dutiful and poor in pay, yet secure. That’s the choice you make. You were in fact encouraged to make that choice, because the government needs good people.
I was offered a government job last year. Every single one of my elders, the ones who instilled in me the values I do posses, told me I’d be fool not to take it. This shocked me. I didn’t take it. I want to be a producer of national wealth and power, not a consumer of it. Maybe I’m a fool.
I wonder if I can transmit this value to my kids. I’m inclined to tell them “No!” at this point, like my parents. Dilemma!
” Instead we will be told we are lucky to be a France or the Netherlands.”
ummm “the Economist” find our Colbertism quite interesting in these gloomy times, plus, our habits didn’t change from kingdoms’ though I understand that some of our compatriots flew away from serfdom, I would too if I were born in these old times
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13610197
I detest the left’s anti “torture” arguments because they are pro-partial abortion spooks. Of course, now that we know Pelosi supports water-boarding in private but not in public she is making her party look schizophrenic.
Dark predictions, but perhaps Obama’s flip flops will result in him in 2014 preaching spending cuts and deregulation.
A flip side article by Yates here at PJM: “Zhe End of Collectivism.”
A question for Mr. Hanson: Just how would you propose to most effectively communicate to most Americans the danger – and any suggested remedy – you describe above?
It’s probably more that we now have a President and people working for him who aren’t morons: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB147/index.htm
David, it’s not a black-white thing with Obama, it’s a communist-capitalist thing. We’ve seen his style the last couple of weeks – Nikolai Lenin, Boss Tweed, and Al Capone. The final part, Benedict Arnold, is all that’s left.
I’m afraid it’s much worse than Amnesia.
The medical term is- Anencephaly.
Cowboy,
The problem is that government expansion usually doesn’t increase the number of people providing government services (the real workers). It increases the number of coordinators, outreach people, project managers, etc, all of whom make life miserable for the real workers by increasing red tape and demanding more progress reports. Since the former receive higher salaries than the normal grunts, you introduce resentment into the system and provide disincentives to personal responsibility. The new hires are also likely to be people with little on-the-ground experience who waste time and money on cockamamie schemes they heard about in grad school.
VDH,
It seems to me that if you initially supported an action like Iraq or the Patriot Act and you found that action running into problems, a person of character would study the problem and offer constructive criticsm quietly. Most of the turncoats didn’t do that. Their criticism was full of clichees and denial, but it was also loud. Loud enough, in fact, to be heard across the borders by both weak-kneed allies and determined enemies. These people need to be called on both their amnesia and the deleterious effects of their moral preening.
No one depends, admit it or not, on France to police the world. Please explain to our readers what will happen when we can or will not come running when trouble strikes. Will China step in to stop a Hitler, and then go home to bury their dead. Don’t think so. So, who will do what we use to do? And where will that leave us?
VDH:
Selective amnesia is critical to the success of the Democrats. They rely on America’s inability to remember what happened and what was said in 2002. Water under the bridge for the majority, it appears. If the media were to do their job and hold the Dems accountable for their past statements and actions, they wouldn’t have a majority in the House and the Senate. The hypocrisy would be unbearable.
The Republicans in Congress have the opportunity to distinguish themselves in this respect by holding fast to principle, not shifting with the political winds — and not playing the hypocritical fools that their Democratic colleagues were seven years ago. Become the Party of NO as Fred Barnes puts it. Take a stand and don’t shade the truth. It’s a simple prescription to avoid being caught in a bold-faced pusillanimous lie, like the Speaker of the House. Not even the media can sweep that one under the rug.
We are on the same page, sorry to say! True believers have come to rule the roost. How long I just don’t know; how much damage will be done I don’t know that either.
If I can recover from their reign…here I am very sad!
This is costing me what I thought were friends.
I don’t think I am alone with these new realities. Jew haters are in vogue, Whitey is about to get lynched along with others.
Hatred is in fashion…why?
Excellent summary of events and of our future, sad to say.
I have long blamed the teachers for all our ills, but you are a fine teacher, VDH, and you make up for a lot of them.
I’d bet the caterpillar in the box was every bit as afraid of the terrorist as he was of it. I have more sympathy for the caterpillar. Nobody assured the caterpillar that the terrorist wouldn’t have killed it.
And there were alternatives. It might have been just as effective to put the terrorist in a box with Perez Hilton.
Dr.Hanson nails it, as usual. This administration looks alarmingly like it wants as much of America as possible in a Pre 9-11 daze. They won, amongst other reasons, by ignoring reality and encouraging same. The huge, significant success in Iraq was(and still is)ignored. The dangers we continue to face were ignored. Iran’s threat. The True Goals of the Palestinians are poo-poo’d. The reality of Hamas & Hezbollah’s strategy, aims and goals are IGNORED. It is inexcusable, yet co-signed by our ‘out-on-a-vacation-from-history’ countrymen. We are going to pay dearly when the Wake-Up comes.
“David, it’s not a black-white thing with Obama, it’s a communist-capitalist thing.”
They are ultimately one and the same in the worldview of Barack Obama. In his heart of hearts, he perceives no real distinction. Capitalism represents the ideology of the oppressors and socialist doctrines will supposedly liberate the dark skinned victims of the planet.
“Big Brother comes not with jack boots and May Day parades, but with a kindly therapeutic smile inviting to accept hope and change and forget what we were.”
But still “a boot stamping on your face forever.”
Do the democrats have amnesia? Of course not.
The position they expressed then just doesn’t suit their purposes now.
Since they never have had truthtelling as a primary goal, they don’t even have to pretend they have amnesia.
Since the lying snakes have a faithful % of the public willing to give them a pass, they never have to pretend to be anything other than lying snakes.
“kept us safe”?
1. Again, who was in charge when the 9/11 attacks occurred? Who was in charge in the summer of 2001 when intelligence briefings said “Bin Laden determined to attack U.S.” and even spelled out the exact scenario he ended up using?
2. Who was in charge when the anthrax attacks occurred? Did they ever catch the guy (as opposed to accusing people publicly).
3. Who was in charge when an invasion of a country completely uninvolved with 9/11 was proposed under the premise that said country WAS involved with 9/11?
4. When you mean “kept us safe”, I suppose you don’t count the time the Federal government sat on its hands and let New Orleans drown, then proceeded to blame the people of New Orleans themselves for what happened that week.
I’m curious about one thing involving this torture “debate”.
If torture is occasionally appropriate in your eyes, then why exactly were the Abu Ghirab guards from the infamous photos put in prison? When Bush talked about how their actions were “deplorable”, was he lying?
Many of our citizens are like alcoholics that will not give it up till they hit bottom. I am begining to think, give them enough rope and they will hang themselves. Let us just stop all coal plants, double or triple power bills, get gas at about $6 a gallon, the poor freezing to death in the winter, rioting in the inner city due to the heat in the summer, aborting as many minority babies as possible, unemployment edging up every year due to small business failure, rampant inflation due to the climbing debt, terrorist attacks, etc. Give them everything they want – I guarantee you, they won’t want it! What a shame but I fear this will be the future and there is little we can do about it.
24 & 25 sum them up nicely. American loutishness at Abu Ghraib(dealt with sternly by the military)is, in Leftworld, the equivalent of..what..Its previous Saddam horrors? Rape Rooms & other horrific & fatal treats.
Or, my very favorite Huffy-Puffy-Finger-Wag from Demoland: Wet nasal membranes for the butcher-designer of thousands of American(and other)Innocents on 9-11-2001.
And now, Snicker-Giggle, we know that Nancy KNEW! Doesn’t get much better than that, Lefties.
27. You failed to answer the question. If, in your opinion, what happened at Abu Ghirab was no big deal, then why exactly were those soldiers in the photos prosecuted and put in prison? It’s a perfectly valid question considering those soldiers insisted pretty strongly that they were ordered to do what they did.
does anyone remember: “Share the Wealth” ?
Does anyone recall that we can only “share” poverty?
What marvelous irony and juxtaposition. Meryl comments at 6:47 about lying snakes and, almost as if on cue, Erasmus appears at 7:17. Ah, but perhaps that isn’t lying–just simple delusion and an inability to comprehend reality.
1. Iirc the Iliad’s Ajax was needed most when the going was worst. Your writings have that spirit, VDH.
2. The Bush Administration and Republican Congress set the stage for Obama. I see little sign that the Republican Party has learned its lesson. Those who benefited from Bush’s misgoverning continue to cling to power in the party.
3. IMO the theocratic right wants big government: it is the means of imposing their agenda on the country. They are determined to overlook that the country, if restricted to a choice between Republican and Democratic big government, will take the Democratic flavor.
Pete:
I’m curious as to why you think Abu Ghraib is part of the debate. What was done to detainees held by the CIA — EITs such as waterboarding, etc (cf Nancy Pelosi for details) — and the legal premises of DOJ lawyers who sanctioned their use constitutes the debate. No one is debating whether what happened at Abu Ghraib is legal.
Erasmus:
“kept us safe”?
Yeah, you’re right. We were so much safer under Bill Clinton’s leadership. We were admired and beloved by all nations. Al Quaeda was on the run and no longer a threat. Had Al Gore been president, 9/11 would never have happened.
Rule 1 for Liberals: Own the narrative. If your version sucks, change it at will, conflate it with something more favorable, or simply lie and deny. Works like a charm…for now.
Whither, oh Oracle? Thrace? Illyria? Bohemia? Any of the old middle kingdoms where freedom was lately bought so dear?
Absent America, we lack planet, I fear. Your last words ring true, ringing like the churchbell cut from the belfry and striking earth, the sound of centuries of night descending.
Ring, ring, despairing.
What became of our people? Stomachless, save for a doughty, often uniformed few, who still, somehow, remember the manly honorable code. How to ‘scape this numeraled cage of just enough, yet patently unjust?
Upon what meat doth this our Caesar feed that he is grown so great? Surely the gods must be stirred by now?
24. Erasmus
It seems that you fault Bush for not acting pre-emptivly against Bin Laden. In fact, thats exactly why he went after Saddam. And it worked. Iraq is no threat to us or anyone now.
With the power of all the investigative bodies in the USA, the anthrax thing is still an unsolved mystery. A sucker punch hit and run.
Katrina? Who could have handled that situation better? You? Kerry? McCain? Pelosi? Romney? Who and how? Nobody will ever know. You may complain or move on.
Pete (25, 27) is making a typical effort to conflate Abu Ghraib and the CIA interrogations, which were different activities in different venues with different chains of command.
As TLM implies, the EIT memos did not apply to the misconduct at Abu Ghraib, which involved military personnel. The military’s activities have never been governed by the EIT memos, which were composed to set boundaries for the CIA.
The military personnel have been prosecuted because they violated the UCMJ in their conduct at Abu Ghraib. That is the letter-of-the-law answer to the question why they were charged and prosecuted.
But we must also note that the kinds of force used in the prosecuted cases were greater and more potentially lethal than anything allowed under the EITs. Moreover, little or no provision was made for medically monitoring the condition of a detainee under harsh interrogation at Abu Ghraib.
The carefully bounded and monitored measures allowed by the EITs are simply not the same thing as what was going on at Abu Ghraib. (There was more to Abu Ghraib, and in some other prosecuted cases from the early days in Iraq, than detainees having to wear women’s panties on their heads. A lot of people on the right don’t realize that: there WAS misconduct early on in military-conducted interrogations, and I believe it’s 12 detainee deaths that the Army has assessed were caused by soldier misconduct. The Army, Marine Corps, and Navy — which have all had responsibilities for detention and interrogation oversight — reenergized their training in the discipline and standards of the Army Field Manual in the wake of Abu Ghraib.)
There is, in fact, more than a letter-of-the-law difference between EIT-authorized interrogation and the prosecuted UCMJ violations at Abu Ghraib.
As a retired officer, I can also say that the worst problem at Abu Ghraib, at the time of the violations, was a very striking failure of leadership. What was wrong there in terms of morale and discipline makes a perfect Leadership 101 case study. The Army stepped in to put that right, but it was also right for the service to take a hit on the whole issue. It never should have gotten to that point.
The reason soldiers from Abu Ghraib have been prosecuted is that they clearly violated the UCMJ. The fact that the Attorney General knows exactly who did what in the CIA interrogations issue, and yet no one has been charged with any crimes, indicates that no laws were violated. There is absolutely nothing stopping the Justice Department from bringing charges, if there were laws violated by known persons.
We know the persons. We know the law. Eric Holder knows the law. He has a team of hundreds of professionals who know the law. Yet there have been no charges brought.
If what was done under the EIT guidance should be punished, then the rule of law approach is to change the law, DEFINE what is to be punished, and set a punishment. Write the bill now. Get it passed and signed into law. You can’t prosecute Bush administration officials with that law, of course. But that should not be the point.
BTW, Professor — absolutely beautiful litany of who knew and said what back in 2002-3. “Amnesia” is one word for what they might be demonstrating. I can think of some others with less positive connotations.
24. Erasmus:
I’m confused …perhaps you could help me with the answer.
How can 2 million People get into Washington DC in sub zero temperatures in 1 day, when 200,000 couldn’t get out of New Orleans at 85 degrees with four days notice?
34. Iraq wasn’t a threat to the US, sorry, but Bush took advantage of the post-9/11 fear and hysteria to gin up support for a war that had NOTHING to do with 9/11.
If Bush and his intelligence apparatrus had evidence in the summer of 2001 that there was a credible threat against domestic airlines, perhaps quietly suggesting to the airlines that they lock their cockpit doors might have been prudent. The reason that no one has grabbed a plane since then is that the doors are locked now.
35. The soldiers prosecuted at Abu Ghirab have insisted for several years that they were ordered to do what they did. So, either they are lying or they were following orders. Which is it.
The thing that has always struck me as problematic about the so-called EIT at Gitmo was that legal memos were drafted to declare the methods “legal” several weeks AFTER the EIT’s had actually begun. A little reverse-engineering going on? Not to mention that the EIT’s specifically violate the UN Conventions on Torture which Reagan himself signed into law (you ought to read those laws, there’s no loophole for “enemy combatants”)
By the way, a few interregators went on record and said that they received orders from the WH to get the Gitmo detainees to confess to an AQ/Iraq link. Were those interregators lying about this, or were they under orders?
Erasmus, what’s sad about your posts is thry have NOTHING to do with the article or its message. It’s deflection. Though I’ll step up because yours is the easiest to pick apart.
Erasmus, who was in charge when Bin Laden was in a known location, a specific business to be precise, and a fighter jet on the tarmac in Saudi Arabia awaited the ‘go’ signal from the CiC? Unfortunately, it was Clinton and he was too busy at a celebrity golf tourney to do his job!
As for the ‘Anthrax Mastermind’, a Dr. who’d worked at the Army’s Infectious Disease Institute looked like a viable suspect. Oh, lookey there. The alleged perpetrator was found.. on Bush’s watch. Unfortunately the coward killed himself last year.
3rdly, Iraq was key in bringing democracy. The country of itself is a great locale to bring supplies, troops, aid, etc., to Iraq and fight the insurgency to their East nowadays. Haven’t you ever played RISK?
In case you haven’t noticed, read, fathomed, terrorist groups are mobile. There are cells in many countries. Including our own.
Erasmus, New Orleans’ Ray Nagin is the dingleberry to point your finger at for New Orleans demise (though it’s been on the decline, fringes of a ‘city’ years prior).
Nagin’s hissy fit voicemail to the White House, as well as totally exaggerating the body count in the aftermath (what’d he say? 25,000? When in actuality there was ~200.) really puts on display his ‘Leadership’ – what a disgrace of a man. Then again, Crackhead Marion berry was reelected, campaigning in traditional African clothing to boot.. sigh.
The Mayor of Fargo, ND DIDN’T ASK for and declined any Government intervention(oh wait, you call it ‘assistance’) when dealing with the flooding(s) of the Red River.
The area has 2,000,000 extra sandbags which were filled by VOLUNTEERS as of late. You see how a community IS SUPPOSED to come together in a crisis, instead of relying on the Government teat..?
Your pointing to the Government for a handout in some manner is the reason why our country is divided. Why our exporting is almost nil.
Why our schools, auto and banking industry is run by those who have no concept of ‘fiscal responsibility’. It’s become ever-so evident even inner city kids can see it.
Suffice to say, this is only the beginning of attempts to our country’s demise. People such as yourself welcome it..
Pete,
Your stupid question does not deserve an answer. Go away.
“Rush Limbaugh, ‘I hope the country fails’ — I hope his kidneys fail, how about that? … He needs a good waterboarding, that’s what he needs.”
Obama joined the crowd in laughing at the crack about Limbaugh’s “kidneys.”
Mmmmmh.
This doesn’t sound like much tenderness on the part of the commies.
No jack-boots ? I have my doubts. We will see.
And…:
Why do they want to disarm The People ?
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
BTW, I brought up ‘Inner city kids’ for the fact they receive the poorest public education. Though aren’t blinded by the hopes and promises of their G men. Talk to them sometime, you’ll see/ hear it too.
Pelosi’s problems over EIT are a win for Obama. After all, others in his administration released the damaging memos.
Every powerful person needs to cause a little pain to one’s followers to keep them in line. Stalin did the same sort of thing. Remember what’s his name, the mayor of Leningrad? The one Stalin framed then shot? Obama hasn’t gone that far yet but doesn’t need to – yet.
Obama has sent a message to Reid, Schumer, and other Democrats that he can and will enforce loyalty.
38. Pete:
Why don’t you ask these questions of Pelosi? She was in the know at the time…hmmm?
39. Numerous people have pointed out that the FBI’s “case” against the dead scientist was filled with a lot of holes, the biggest one was that the scientist didn’t actually have access to the strain of anthrax that killed those people in 2001. Considering the fact that the Feds attempted to pin the anthrax attacks on a completely different scientist for a few years (a guy I believe who won a private settlement for the false accusation), it’s not too much of a stretch to be skeptical of a Richard Jewell rush to judgement with the second guy.
As for your statements about Iraq, wasn’t the stated reason for invading the mythical WMD’s? Where in the original Congressional Resolution was the phrase “bringing democracy”? Most people are smart enough to realize that we wanted a country to base a hypothetical invasion of Iran from, so don’t give this jive about democracy. All we have accomplished is setting up a Shia theocracy there.
41. It is incredibly ironic that the main reason that Limbaugh isn’t currently in prison on felony drug charges is because the authorities neglected to obtain proper search warrants.
40. Very mature retort. It’s a simple question, the Abu Ghirab soldiers who were jailed said that they were ordered to commit the acts they were prosecuted for. Were the soldiers lying?
What the President and his administration are doing exceeds my fears. There is no integrity. Intolerance of the views of others seems to gain status. “Hate speech” is a term in widespread use, applied to those with whom a speaker disagrees. At the same time the speaker condemning “hate speech” is using “hate speech” to condemn anyone with whom he/she disagrees. There is more that could be said. The future is bleak and frightening.
Pete/28: See TLM/32 and J.E.Dyer/32
Couldn’t state it better, Pete. As for Dyer’s ‘suggestion’ that you get a law passed to bar waterboarding and a(gasp) terrifying caterpillar in a cell? The Bamma doesn’t want that law. Nor would any president. He just wants to manipulate the facts, withhold full disclosure, cherry-pick and ponzi for the press and Dems. In writing, that old game is called,”Watch my hands so you won’t see what I’m saying!” It’s a novelist device..and screenwriter’s trick..a politician’s snake oil wagon and refined by Mr.Obama and his Crew. Experts with the Oz Curtain and Fiction becoming well known, accepted..errr…Troot.
Pete #38:
“35. The soldiers prosecuted at Abu Ghirab have insisted for several years that they were ordered to do what they did. So, either they are lying or they were following orders. Which is it.”
It doesn’t matter to the question of whether their activities were a prosecutable offense under the UCMJ. It only matters to the question which people you prosecute. You’re welcome to believe the convicted soldiers, but the members of their courts martial believed otherwise.
If you don’t want to live by the rule of law, say so. In the US, we prosecute for defined offenses. If we start inflicting everything on people except actual, prosecutable charges and convictions, when they are not guilty of any offenses defined in law, then God help YOU along with all the rest of us.
The authorities apppointed by administrations of both parties, along with our elected representatives, know what everyone involved has done with reference to harsh interrogations by military personnel and the CIA. This knowledge has not resulted in any prosecutions under the law.
Yet if there were something prosecutable, we know everything we need to know to bring charges. We know what was done, and we know who did it. Special investigations, Congressional testimony, federal demands that state bars open proceedings against the EIT attorneys — these things will not turn up any new information on prosecutable offenses. They will only financially ruin the targets of the activities, while changing absolutely nothing about the way the US handles detainee interrogations.
This may be, as VDH has pointed out, an age-old pathology of representative government: using the state’s power of harassment to intimidate political oppponents. But it’s still disgusting.
Though I have yet to read it, David Horowitz’s PARTY OF DEFEAT details the Democrats’ betrayal on Iraq. BTW, I’ll never get over how Obama thought ‘Austrian’ was a language!
OK, my first question – Who is the leader of the Republican/conservative movement? – stumped everybody.
Let’s try another – Who has done more to serve this country – Colin Powell or Rush Limbaugh?
Pete:
If you wish to be part of the “debate”, do your homework. Start by re-reading J.E. Dyer’s posts. Also, be aware that soldiers can REFUSE to carry out an illegal order and not be prosecuted under UCMJ for insubordination.
Erasmus,
Have you ever even actually read “In Praise of Folly”? The original Erasmus was a wise man. You are insulting his good name.
Pete: Yes, those soldiers at Abu Ghirab were lying to save their skins. None of the moronic things they were doing were to gain any information. They were simply playing-out to show off to friends. The military had already caught these morons and brought them up on charges BEFORE the press got wind of it. To compare Abu Ghirab to Gitmo is moronic on your part. One is to secure the nation while the other is to act out some immature fetishes.
I am SOOO tired of hearing Libs spout off about Katrina. When faced with a natural disaster, the first responders are the “local” civil defense and the “local” gov’t offices (mayor). If they are unable to handle, they request help from the State. The State Governor controls the national guard, and they are called in if needed. After all of these are expended, then the Federal gov’t is called (usually after the fact), to declare a disaster area, at which time money is allocated. In the case of New Orleans, the Mayor and the Governor completely dropped the ball,and did NOTHING. Then all the lefties blamed the whole mess on Bush. Pete– If you are going to continue using Katrina, please explain to all of us what the Mayor and the Governor did to help the people.
REMEMBER WHEN EVEN DEMOCRATS BELIEVED THAT KILLING THE BAD GUYS WAS A GOOD THING?
sheesh:
“OK, my first question – Who is the leader of the Republican/conservative movement? – stumped everybody.”
OK, my first question is – what makes you think they are one and the same movement?
“Let’s try another – Who has done more to serve this country – Colin Powell or Rush Limbaugh?”
Sheesh, I gotta’ admit. You stumped me with that one. I’ll guess Colin Powell ’cause he served 35 years in th’ Army. I ‘spose private citizen Rush Limbaugh — who I ne’er listen to anyways — ought to just shut his trap like President Obama says. I know how all you liberals respect military service ‘n all.
BTW, what branch of the military did Barack Obama serve in? Oh, right. He only THOUGHT about joining up. Maybe we should have elected John McCain. By your criteria, I’m pretty sure he faithfully “served” his country.
DIRECTOR OF WHITE HOUSE EXCUSES
It is Obama’s plan, he is 100% accountable.
http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/05/orszag-director-of-excuses.html
Sheesh:
Who has done more to serve this country: John McCain or Barack Obama?
Pete:
“As for your statements about Iraq, wasn’t the stated reason for invading the mythical WMD’s?”
Regime change in Iraq became the official U.S. policy in 1998 under Bill Clinton. The 2002 congressional authorization to remove Saddam Hussein stated 30 odd reasons to go to war. WMD was the one fixated on by the press (and unfortunately by Bush as well).
“All we have accomplished is setting up a Shia theocracy there.”
Shia theocracy? You mean like in Iran where the Supreme Leader under their constitution is a Grand Ayatollah (eg Khamenei these past 20 years)? Whose the Grand Ayatollah in charge of Iraq?
I want to think that everything will play out so that one day we look back on all of this and remember how foolish we were, but I wonder if we will. One day I believe that we will have the same desires as we used to, but I think it may take a while to get there. I pray that everyone realizes that when others see you are a good man that is enough recognition, and we do not need all the money in the world to have satisfying lives. We do not need adoring crowds, or the adulation of those we know nothing about.
55. TLM: . . . “OK, my first question is – what makes you think they are one and the same movement?”
Sometimes they are. Sometimes they aren’t. I don’t care either way. You’re ones busy “rebranding” yourselves. When you decide who’s who, I’m sure the world will know.
“Rush Limbaugh — who I ne’er listen to anyways — ought to just shut his trap like President Obama says.”
Nobody told Rush to shut up. That’s just more right wing hyperbole.
Obama said, “You can’t just listen to Rush Limbaugh and get things done.”
More recently, Colin Powell said, “I think what Rush does as an entertainer diminishes the party and intrudes or inserts into our public life a kind of nastiness that we would be better to do without.”
Shut up? Not there. But that doesn’t mean it’s not good advice. If you were smart, you’d take it. But you’d rather be aggrieved . . . live in anger and resentment. Not my choice of how to live, but hey . . . go with your strengths.
As to McCain, if Dick Cheney would have said that he prefers Rush Limbaugh over John McCain, he might be relevant to the question.
Your victimhood remains unrequited. Perhaps Perez Hilton can oblige you. If not Perez, maybe a jar of mustard.
Now for 57. Bill . . . I’ll be happy to answer your question just as soon as you answer mine.
57. Bill:
Sheesh:
Who has done more to serve this country: John McCain or Barack Obama?
Barack Obama is serving up his country right now.
Erasmus: the abu ghraib troops saying they were following the orders equate to N Pelosi being privy to information and now having a problem with it.
60. sheesh: – “Nobody told Rush to shut up. That’s just more right wing hyperbole.
More recently, Colin Powell said, “I think what Rush does as an entertainer diminishes the party and intrudes or inserts into our public life a kind of nastiness that we would be better to do without.”
Shut up? Not there. But that doesn’t mean it’s not good advice. If you were smart, you’d take it. But you’d rather be aggrieved . . . live in anger and resentment. Not my choice of how to live, but hey . . . go with your strengths.”
Please, the way in which you talk to others here reeks of an aggrieved person? I know you’re fond of your sarcasms and your intellectual wit so bake yourself an extra cookie for you deserve it with that doozy. Interesting how you defend what some claim Collin Powell said yet are you for or against how the left constantly takes Rush’s “I hope he fails” comment out of context?
Wanda Sykes incorrectly joked about it then like the caring liberal she is hoped his kidneys would shut down. Then we have your fight for rights hypocrites like Janeane Garofalo who call those that freely express their constitutional rights racist tea-baggers. Left playing the race card, that’s completely unheard of. Jeneane probably has a little resentment having to work on a show were an American would fight for his country by any means necessary. Ignorant to realize in real life those red-necks she puts down many are in the military or have family members in the military protecting the freedoms she enjoys with her hateful ideology.
“Your victimhood remains unrequited. Perhaps Perez Hilton can oblige you. If not Perez, maybe a jar of mustard.”
You buy mustard in a jar still? You my friend are also a victim, of technology. Like your choice of using the word victimhood, nothing like the demand for social justice by the far left. Push the individual aside and place the person in a group even though you used “Your” in the singular tense. Hope it gave you the identity and self-worth you were seeking. For me it placed you in the smart box you try and put others into with your condescending resentment you claim not to live by.
Ahhh, you have to love the partisanship necessary to bring up Katrina! Yes just another one of those bits of incompetence… which had started out with the French, of course. Building in the delta region the place that would become New Orleans was once relatively high ground. But it doesn’t stay that way as the delta is dynamic, but the French couldn’t know that and so the city was founded… on sinking land. This was actually recognized, but no one really took it into consideration as that would mean tedious decades of research to find out just why it was the land there sunk.
Not having a good answer we did lots of things there, as a Nation. We would pump water out of low lying areas and call it: dry land! Just below the water table, of course… so vast pumps are deployed to keep it ‘dry’. And then we built more, heavier, farther and faster… which started to compress the underlying soil and drive water out of the pore spaces between particles. This happens naturally, of course, gravity being what it is, but adding more mass on top is like putting bricks on a wet sponge. The land sinks, faster.
Getting water into pore spaces depends upon water pressure. And we worked to keep that up! Yessiree, we cut off the flow of the mighty river that wanted to seek a lower channel and take water from the New Orleans area and build up another part of the delta. The Atchafalaya River was to be its new home before we put the cut-off in. Then we dredged the shipping channel to keep the flow rate up. Which no longer allowed sediments to deposit there and they remained in the current far past the delta and into the Gulf of Mexico. Without new sediment to add on top of old, the region sinks, faster.
Then we, not only the Nation but the City of New Orleans, decides to take a 30 year break from measuring subsidence. Everyone depended on its old, slow rate measured before all these ‘good works’ are put in place. Once measured, 30 years on, the rate had doubled and in smoe places tripled. Of course NOLA had expanded by leaps and bounds… heaven forbid you mention a linkage between the two.
Thus sinking lower, faster, we find this is endemic to the entire delta which is getting washed away to the beaches of Texas and eroded at a football field of marshland per day in coverage. Much lower land makes it easier for storm surgest to go deeper into the delta region. The great flood control works were handed to NOLA to keep up, and parties ensued as people marveled at the engineering marvels of man. With the same money meant to go to keep up said marvels, but such is politics there. What had been built at its old level to maintain against a Cat 3 storm that was strong then is not enough to stand against a weak Cat 3 or strong Cat 2.
We do not have the lovely bedrock of the Rhine or Thames, we do not have the great and easy to get to contacts with the earth’s crust buried under tens and hundreds of feet of much, mire and uncompacted sediment. Thankfully the New Madrid Fault Zone doesn’t go that far south, or the entire thing could turn into a slurry with one major quake, which wouldn’t help anyone there one bit. Such is the nature of particle to particle contact with a lot of water between particles when jarred.
Who do I blame for what is happening in NOLA?
It starts with the French.
It ends when we get away from petty politics and recognize simple, basic facts of the delta region and do something different. That takes real commitment, understanding, leadership and common acknowledgement of the problem. That finger pointing out in blame points three back at you for not understanding the problem and blaming others in your own ignorance. Your thumb gives the final resting place of your body in the ground. You can make a difference. That means one must stop blaming and recognize the problem… and in pointing one points out there is blame enough to go around as two people are pointed at.
TO ALL HERE:
Pastor of Muppets, LIKE vivo, LIKE Herb, LIKE sheesh, and I’m sure I’ve forgotten the names of other Axelrod-financed-ish trolls here, spend their time here ONLY to divide, disrupt and distract.
It is best to ignore, next best to deride, ANY of their efforts.
There won’t be any economic expansion. Myriad taxes from that on soda to cap and trade will create crushing inflation and price spirals while wages remain capped and with mass unemployment.
That is mostly among men.
Please. Exactly how many Straight White Men will be hired for government work? Maybe three. At the most. Robert Reich and Nancy Pelosi both want no White Men getting work. Look at the DMV or local Library. Not a single Straight White guy to be found in the place. Straight White guys are not allowed in public service. Period.
Obama’s economy benefits women, and various non-White groups. Who get the Government hiring, and various welfare spending. White guys get screwed. This is by design, the Democrats run policy pieces like “So Long White Boy” and believe it — Democrats are inherently the female party and hostile in the extreme to White Men. As most women are.
This will create a whole class of guys who went from $200 bottle service from say, 1995-2007, to out of work, unemployed or underemployed, no chance at a social life, as the workforce becomes female dominated and most men are literally priced out of the mating market.
It will only exacerbate the Gender Gap, but push it to even greater extremes. Kerry got 34% of the White Male vote. Next election, if there is one, Obama will be lucky to get 4%. Since his high tax, anti-White guy agenda will pretty much push all White Men out of the economy. And if you’re a woman with a working-age son, or rationally consider a younger son’s prospects, Obama is your enemy.
Government job? PLEASE. White guys need not apply.
Th ank you, VDH, for putting the hypocrisy and “early alzheimers” of so many democrats in perspective.
Reasonable people can disagree about whether the enhanced interrogation techniques are torture. However, if they are torture, the U.S. has been torturing all the military airmen who have gone through Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) training for the last 45 years. I went through the training in 1964 and was subjected to many of the same techniques(except waterboarding). It was very uncomfortable and even painful, but I sustained no lasting physical or mental damage. That is, IMO, the difference between EIT and torture – methods that create permanent physical or mental injury. In John McCain’s case, he was tortured by the North Vietnamese. Everytime you see him try to raise his arms you see the lasting physical damage that was done.
Under the Army Field manual rules, which by the way were written for treatment of prisoners of war not illegal combabtants (,al Qaeda terrorists which the are
My comment was submitted prematurely. Sorry. The last paragraph was supposed to read:
Under the Army Field manual rules, which were written for treatment of prisoners of war not illegal combatants (al Qaeda terrorists), ther can be no interrogation of the POW. You can ask for name, rank, and serial number. That’s it. So, we might as well shoot them on the battlefield (as allowed by the Geneva Conventions) as to take them prisoner and go through all the grief of providing halal food, prayer mats, Korans and all such.
McCain isn’t the fighter pilot he used to be. Somewhere along the line, he lost a lot of his courage. Nevertheless, the old man has more integrity in his little finger than Obama has in his whole body. FYI, Obama wouldn’t have been able to join the military- he would have been kicked out for drug use. See, in the military, you must submit to random drug tests, including a unit-wide sweep twice a year. Failing one drug test is an automatic career ender; this is non-negotiable.
In case anyone needs some 2002 (or earlier) reminders, I find this page handy:
http://freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html
The gang’s all here.
62. Heffalumps & Woozles:
“Nobody told Rush to shut up. That’s just more right wing hyperbole.”
Still waiting for you to refute that. But you can’t. You’d rather tall Jeanine Garafolo to shut up.
sheesh:
“Shut up? Not there. But that doesn’t mean it’s not good advice. If you were smart, you’d take it.”
Uh, apparently I should take the “good advice” (from whom?) that Rush Limbaugh shut up? That makes no logical sense. How exactly do I do that? Did you mean to imply it’s “good advice” to not listen to him? I repeat: I don’t. Please be advised: I don’t like my president, Colin Powell, idiots like you or anyone else telling me who I should or shouldn’t listen to.
Garafolo is tall??
Let’s face it, people of the left and people of the right will never agree on how to define torture and how it differs from Enhanced Interrogation Techniques. Additionally, I would ask how communism differs from socialism? … there is none … check your dictionaries. If I were a Liberal / left-wing pinko, I would be more worried about my own fate IF the ‘True Socialists’ come to power. They do have a nasty habit of ‘cleaning house’ of useful idiots. Then, you will know all about the different forms of torture. But, as the Democrats party base is integrally bound to Hollywood and Chicago fun parlours, then you will most likely not see it coming, which is for the better … hate to see a grown commie cry.
My Dear Professor,
Once again, an excellent article and a timely reminder of just where we are in the battle for the survival of life as we once knew it. I am not an American, but consider myself a friend of what has to be the last international redoubt of freedom, a freedom which we in Australia, along with other far-flung places, have taken for granted throughout our very short history. Of course, up until recent times, we have had nothing to fear from those who would wish to subjudicate our peoples to their will. Australians have always had to travel abroad to find a fight and under the auspices of the British, found our first international dustup fighting against the Maoris in what was then termed as the Maori wars (now called the New Zealand wars). Australians were also involved in: The Sudan; The Boer War (South Africa); The Boxer Rebellion (China); WW I & II The Malaya Emergency / Malaysian second emergency (Sarawak / Borneo); Korea; South Vietnam; etc etc. For a good number of those conflicts listed, Australians have found themselves alongside Americans. We have shared much during those times and now, find ourselves again sharing the fortunes of the most powerful nation this world has ever seen or will see. For me, is all about power and how it is used. It is hard to believe, having been part of and having felt the mindnumbing power of the American military, to be now looking at the American nation being held to ransom by a few weasels in Washington.
As a young soldier being returned to base in Malaysia from a six months tour of duty in Sarawak (Borneo 1965) on the ex-British aircraft carrier ‘Albion’, a few of us climbed out over the side railings (at night) and ventured along the catwalks to as close as we could get to the sharp end of the ship. We felt the power of the wind and sea spray whipped up by what now would be regarded as a cross-river ferry when compared with the USS Ronald Reagan and other Carrier Strikeforce vessels. I believe the power that I felt was dramatically enacted by Leonardo DiCaprio in the movie Titanic. I was never “King of the World” but I could empathise with the sheer power shown by man and nature combined. The feeling of power continued during my two tours of Vietnam and I can vividly remember being told by my unit’s commanding officer that the first thing we would notice (or would be distracted by) would be the noise. Sure enough, as we were brought up from the bowels of HMAS Sydney to the ‘flight deck’, we were at once subjected to the sheer brute force and noise of US helicopters (CH 47 Chinooks) that transported us from one world into another in little over half an hour – we were at war again alongside Americans and everything was about ‘power’. My second tour as an adviser under MACV was again all about power and in the end, how to lose it. The incredible air power, Naval gunfire from US destroyers ‘on station’ in the Gulf of Tonkin, direct and indirect support from US 155 and 175 mm guns etc, were all a display of the power that was the United States. Sadly, on seeing the human side of a war which was ‘running down’ as if on a slippery dip, showed me that regardless of all that power at our fingertips, it could all go astray if people do not want to fight or use that power to their best advantage, or worse still, have not one inkling on what to do with it and tend to degrade and demeanour those assets.
Can you imagine the frustration that must be felt by the Admiral in charge of the USS Ronald Reagan (and other Carrier Strikeforces?) He has the power to wipe any city in the world off the map and yet, he has to sit on his hands and wait for an order from his commander-in-chief who (to part-quote General George S. Patton Jr. when referring to the press … (Those bilious bastards) “… [doesn't] know any more about real fighting under fire than [he knows] about [fornicating]”
1. Eme: is correct when stating “Then you had to get all depressing-like at the end there.” The Cowboy @ #5 is quite astute in lamenting on the work values of government employees, particularly at the top of the heap and sums it up nicely … “Dilemma.” And yet, the very constitution that gives Americans their values, prevents them from simply walking into the Oval Office and punching the great pretender everywhere except the soles of the feet and the roof of the mouth. And who would there be to render assistance? Biden; Emanuel; Gibbs and other perfumed warriors? I doubt it – “Heil to the NEW Chief/s,” the true Americans who retain the values given by your extremely brave ‘Founding Fathers’ and again realize that they DO have the power to ‘right the wrongs’ of the ‘One’. Have you noticed that Obama never uses any reference to your ‘Founding Fathers’ ? … Why? Because he does not qualify to do so … and he knows it.
Come to think of it, I was one of those detestable “government workers” – Sorry Cowboy!
Here’s something for Bill Gates to think about, as he is in the pocket of the Wanker in Washington: When is he going to update MS Office programmes and stop the word ‘Obama’ being shown as a mistake / spelling error? (XP at least).
Jack Mullockheap — thanks for a fun post, if one that induced melancholy as well. I have to say, during my 20 years in the US Navy, no matter where we ran into the Aussies, it was ALWAYS good to see them. Always. Another Navy that wasn’t punching a time-clock. One of the few.
I was privileged to participate in a ceremony commemorating the Battle of the Coral Sea in 1992, and will never forget either that, or any of my other visits to Australia. Hang in there, shipmate. America will come about.
Meanwhile, what I really meant to say was this: Gates and MS haven’t even fixed “Reagan” yet, so that it doesn’t show up as a “mistake” in MS Office. I’m betting they will fix “Obama” first, though.
“One if by land, two if by sea…
The forces are massing to dupe you and me!”
http://thenma.org/blogs//index.php/libertyforusa/2009/05/14/when-socialist-s-armies-mass
Dr. Hanson, thank you once again for a wonderful article.
For those who brought up Katrina as a failure of the federal government, you don’t know how the process works. As someone else has already pointed out, it was the responsibility of the mayor of the city to ask for help from the state. I’m sure that this was a difficult step for the mayor to take from under the desk where he was scared and crying like an old woman (I am an old woman, so this is not meant to insult women of any age). The federal government only steps in when they are invited by the governor of the state.
As for Obama having served this country for so long, I would have to say that although he claims over 20 years of public service, he seems to think that “public service” means that the public should serve him and not the other way around. As for his campaign of HOPE and CHANGE, what he meant was that he HOPES that we will be left with some spare CHANGE after we finish using all of our hard-earned money on the new taxes that he is proposing. The only “hope” and “change” I can believe in is HOPE(ing) that this country comes to its senses and CHANGE(s) leadership in the White House and in Congress.
“A majority of the Democrats in the Congress, worried about the upcoming November elections, voted in October for 23 reasons to go to war against Iraq”
76 responses, hundreds of readers, and no one noticed that he got this wrong? 82 Democratic representatives and 29 senators voted for the resolution, while 126 reps and 21 senators voted against it. I’ll grant that Victor Davis Hanson is not a mathematician, but I can assure him that 111 out of 258 is not a majority.
45. Pete:
“As for your statements about Iraq, wasn’t the stated reason for invading the mythical WMD’s?”
Perhaps a report from the Department of Defense right here http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15918 will help you out some. Actually it would not be a good idea to let our enemies know that we had in fact found them or Al Queada would be trying to get a hold of them while our soldiers were getting them out of the country and then able to destroy them