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Spengler

Ukraine Should Vote on Partition

February 20th, 2014 - 5:42 am

I have been making this argument for years. From my 2008 essay, “Americans Play Monopoly, Russians Chess“:

On the night of November 22, 2004, then-Russian president – now premier – Vladimir Putin watched the television news in his dacha near Moscow. People who were with Putin that night report his anger and disbelief at the unfolding “Orange” revolution in Ukraine. “They lied to me,” Putin said bitterly of the United States. “I’ll never trust them again.” The Russians still can’t fathom why the West threw over a potential strategic alliance for Ukraine. They underestimate the stupidity of the West….

I will offer the assertion that partition is the destiny of Ukraine….

Russia’s survival depends not so much on its birth rate, nor on immigration, nor even on prospective annexation, but on the survival of the principle by which Russia was built in the first place. That is why Putin could not abandon the pockets of Russian passport holders in the Caucusus. That Russia history has been tragic, and its nation-building principle brutal and sometimes inhuman, is a different matter. Russia is sufficiently important that its tragedy will be our tragedy, unless averted.

The place to avert tragedy is in Ukraine. Russia will not permit Ukraine to drift to the West. Whether a country that never had an independent national existence prior to the collapse of communism should become the poster-child for national self-determination is a different question. The West has two choices: draw a line in the sand around Ukraine, or trade it to the Russians for something more important.

My proposal is simple: Russia’s help in containing nuclear proliferation and terrorism in the Middle East is of infinitely greater import to the West than the dubious self-determination of Ukraine. The West should do its best to pretend that the “Orange” revolution of 2004 and 2005 never happened, and secure Russia’s assistance in the Iranian nuclear issue as well as energy security in return for an understanding of Russia’s existential requirements in the near abroad. Anyone who thinks this sounds cynical should spend a week in Kiev.

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Top Rated Comments   
Oh, and Mr. Goldman, I have kind of had my eye on some of YOUR property. Let me know when you are ready for my plans on how we divide it up. I would only demand half of it, but Vladimir wants half of what I get, so I will have to demand two-thirds of it.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Who are you - or anyone else for that matter to 'give away' the Ukraine, or any other part of the world? Ukraine does not belong to us or to Europe or to Russia. It belongs to the hodgepodge that is The Ukraine - only they should have a say in this matter. Granted - a hodgepodge can be messy - one need look no further than the Middle East and how the Ottoman Empire was broken up and artificial lines drawn up on the map that did not take into account who were inside those lines. One can only wonder how much better off the world would be if the map had taken into account tribal lands instead of geographical and political lines.

It sounds like we're replaying 1939 all over again. England and France had no business 'giving' anything to anyone. 'Giving' in that sense is nothing less than capitulation - a 'move' that suits Obama/Kerry well and serves nobody but them. Substitute Sudetenland for Ukraine and its Déjà vu "all over again!"

I don't trust Putin one iota. Give him an inch and he'll turn into another Hitler. Given the feckless nature of the boneheads that currently run DC I don't see a good ending for this.

Who's next Mr. Chamberlain?


34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Trade Ukraine to the Russians?
I wasn't aware we owned Ukraine to be able to trade it.
Hmmm . . .

I remember another time the U.S. "traded" countries to the Russians in the name of cooperation and shared hegemony.
The result was the Cold War, with the Warsaw Pact and NATO.

Yes, Ukraine is a hodgepodge of ethno-linguistic groups.
Yes, it is pretty much just the leftovers after Poland, Russia, and Rumania settled on "permanent" borders, at the expense of Lithuania, Austria, the Ottomans, and each other.
Yes, it would probably do better if it were split up, perhaps even letting some sections merge with neighboring countries.
That doesn't mean they should be casually bought and sold, or that we should casually buy and sell them.

And as for how that will de facto justify Russia's imperial policies, sanctioning its establishment of exclaves hither and yon, and selective seizures of more, from Kalingrad to Transnistria to South Ossetia. Accede to Russian annexation of eastern Ukraine and the Crimea and you set the stage for Russia to nickel-and-dime its way back to claiming all of the former Soviet Union and more in the name of "protecting" Russian minorities/citizens anywhere and everywhere. From there it will be a short step from Putin declaring himself the "protector" of Slavic peoples everywhere, establishing hegemony over them and pursuing military options, just as Russia interceded to "protect" Serbia in 1914.
"Americans play monopoly, Russians chess" indeed.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
All Comments   (165)
All Comments   (165)
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Simple solution for the Ukrainians - sell Crimea to the Russians. You get rid of a bunch of troublemakers, get rid of your debt, and appease the bear, at least for a time. Devalue your currancy, lower and simplify taxes, and ride things out.
33 weeks ago
33 weeks ago Link To Comment
Being totally cynical and ruthless I am compelled to agree with Spengler's analysis.
33 weeks ago
33 weeks ago Link To Comment
Here's one more item for Spengler -- and more embarassment for Michael D. Weiss and other neocon operatives desperately trying to downplay the anti-Semitism among the Svoboda Party and other Maidanist elements (just as Weiss earlier tried to downplay the 'first we topple Assad then we kill the Jews' rhetoric of his Qatari/Saudi funded jihadist pals in Syria):

http://www.wnd.com/2014/02/ukraines-chief-rabbi-has-warning-for-jews/
WND: Chief Rabbi in Ukraine warns Jews to avoid protests

And I am not going to dignify the rhetoric of a Galician fascist commenter here who insist frail Russian babushkas deserve to be ethnically cleansed from Western Ukraine or Kiev on account of their parents or grandparents having settled in the region when it was the Russian Empire or USSR.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
David you are one of the few voices of realist sanity at Pajamas Media. I'm not surprised the neocons and professional Russophobes (TomDPerkins sounds suspiciously like a certain notorious NSA troll professor at the U.S. Naval War College, guess who) are all over you. But it isn't as if you are arguing for Ukraine being allowed a Czech-Slovak style divorce for the sake of expediency or out of desperation to avert war like Chamberlain. There shouldn't be a civil war unless the Lviv fascists start ethnically cleansing Russian speakers from KYEV with the tacit support/cheerleading of the WSJ/Weekly War Standard who will blame Putin for these provocations funded by that hellbound old Nazi collaborator, George Soros.

Calm down conservatives itching for a new fight with the Eternal Evil Empire and the comforting chill of a New Cold War. There AREN'T going to be any Russian tanks crossing the frontier rolling into Kharkiv and then turning south east toward the Crimea, despite the threats to the FT which were mostly meant as a warning for the Lviv crowd.

The reason is simple. Any Lviv 'Banderisti' or Kiev militias that take the 500 kilometer trainride to Kharkiv and attempt to impose the writ of a Tymoshenko or Maidan government through force, including the imposiition of EU tariffs that would destroy eastern Ukrainian industry, will be met with fierce resistance, ironically using the SAME TACTICS the Maidanists used to stop mercenaries from the East reaching Kiev. Going into Sevastapol to put down a revolt backed by armed volunteers from the Russian Black Sea Fleet will prove suicidal and have few takers.

After all why would the same units that refused to stick their necks out to fight to the death for Yanukovich now do the same for another corrupt politician, this one merely more pro-Western and anti-Russian? It doesn't make a lick of sense and the Ukrainians are if nothing else survivors, even in Western Ukraine there are likely going to be few volunteers to go fight recalcitrant Russophones besides the Spilna Sprava fanatics from Lviv.

So get used to it Leon Aron, Ariel Cohen and you other two faced professional Russophobes who keep your mouths shut about the Jew haters and Banderist/SS Galician division reenactors of Svoboda/Right Force (Aron) or pretend they won't have any influence in the new post-coup government (Cohen). If Kharkiv and Sevastapol decide to flip Tymoshenko et al the bird, there won't be a damn thing the EU/NATO/US can do about it. You'll just curse Putin more. And Odessa will likely remain just fine and quiet unless some Lviv thugs come in to start ethnically cleansing the Russian-speakers from the city, in which case spetsnaz will come in from the Black Sea Fleet and shoot the fascist Soros-backed bastards. And Radek Sikorski will tell ITN the troublemakers got what they deserved. Remember Radek isn't stupid enough despite all his sheepdipping in Beltway neocon circles to have forgotten that the Banderists assassinated Polish generals pre-Hitler Stalin Pact, when Lviv was still under Polish sovereignty.

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34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
"David you are one of the few voices of realist sanity at Pajamas Media. I'm not surprised the neocons and professional Russophobes (TomDPerkins sounds suspiciously like a certain notorious NSA troll professor at the U.S. Naval War College, guess who) are all over you."

No, "trolling" under another name would be a lie, and I've never lied here.

Russia should Westernize on classical liberal lines, as should the whole of humanity. If Russia not merely will not, but insists on attempting to re-instate the Warsaw Pact, then there should be war with the West, and I think they will lose. It would certainly be right and just if they did.

"Remember Radek isn't stupid enough despite all his sheepdipping in Beltway neocon circles to have forgotten that the Banderists assassinated Polish generals pre-Hitler Stalin Pact, when Lviv was still under Polish sovereignty."

Why, when the Poles were in the Ukraine and the Ukrainians wanted them to leave, shouldn't they have been assassinating Polish generals? It's just a question, goes to your warped state of mind/.

"You'll just curse Putin more."

Well he certainly can't be cursed enough, now can he? Not even if we could get some Po219 in his tea.

Russophobe? As opposed to Russophile? What's to love?
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Yes, Russia should, but then it wouldn't be Russia. I simply don't think this will happen and we will have to live with Russia as it is for some time to come. There is a difference between defeating Communism (and I was a committed Cold Warrior) and dealing with a trouble-making spoiler like the Russian Federation.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
"Russia should Westernize on classical liberal lines, as should the whole of humanity." The whole of humanity may not want to be forcibly Westernized, especially when the West itself is losing its values. That's the whole point of the Spengler name and persona:

http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2009/05/confessions-of-a-coward

"If Russia not merely will not, but insists on attempting to re-instate the Warsaw Pact, then there should be war with the West, and I think they will lose." What Warsaw Pact, with whom? People like you rely on the intellectual laziness and stupidity of millions for whom Russia will always be locked in 1983, who have never been to Moscow and seen that it isn't like that anymore, and who are happy to volunteer American blood or at least treasure in support of tribes that incessantly demand to be absorbed into the modern day USSR, the Evropitsky Soyuz. In Russian it sounds quite like the original, doesn't it?

What if the Bolsheviks are on the other side this time? What if it's the Michael D. Weiss' and Jamie Kirchick's of the present who are advocating aggression and worldwide revolution like Trotsky?

Anyway, the fact that your rationalize Ukrainians both shooting Poles pre-WWII AND allying with Hitler says a lot about you.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
You have no reading comprehension, I said nothing about forcibly Westernizing, did I? The Ukrainians want to Westernize, at least as much as the EU remains Western. Why should Putin be allowed, or per Goldman, encouraged, to stop them? Neither is the fact much of the West is adopting the popular despot of majoritarianism--as guided by the Progressive elites of course--any reason not to adopt what was best in classical liberalism. You haven't even pretended to make that case.

I can't imagine why you think I need to be informed about what is Spenglerian, I know his views--his views apply to all societies which are not classically liberal. They have no applicability to what societies are such.

Those are evergreen.

"People like you rely on the intellectual laziness and stupidity of millions for whom Russia will always be locked in 1983"

That's where Putin wants them locked, and it's exactly how Putin is.

"What if the Bolsheviks are on the other side this time?" There is only one side an actual Bolshevik can be on, it's their own and for their own evil purposes.

"Anyway, the fact that your rationalize Ukrainians both shooting Poles pre-WWII AND allying with Hitler says a lot about you."

Yes, I recognize Patton should have been told to go East and stop when he got to Vladivostok.

As I guessed, you are pro-Soviet.

Do you pretend that after the Holomodor, the Ukrainians should not have initially seen even the Nazis as saviors? Some kept that opinion, but almost none did. Do you think the Ukrainians had no right to throw off the Poles? Should the Finns have let Uncle Joe walk all over them?

German boots bad, Russian boots good, that's what you boil down to, isn't it?
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Does Russian-speaking Eastern Ukraine want to head West to the EU? Maybe. Put it to a vote: offer the option of partition. Let them figure it out.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
If Ukraine is melded back into the (new) Russian Empire, they must be stripped of their UN seat - we played this game before, and once was enough.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
What you don't see in the pathetic American media are the people in the eastern half of the Ukraine who WANT close ties with Russia. They don't fit the narrative, you see.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Russia's 15 billion dollars could repatriate a lot of ethnic Russians back to the Motherland from Ukraine.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
The Ukraine should vote on partition, to the very limited extent that it prepares the political battlespace for the upcoming civil war. The US should support pro-western forces with arms in that war.

The easternmost rim should be given a plebiscite on secession, Russia should be offered free 111 year leases on her naval facilities, and extraterritoriality for forces in transit corridors.

Regardless of the vote, Putin will not be satisfied with such, and war will ensue. Via Poland, covert support should be given the Ukrainians. If Russia objects in an effective fashion, Poland should receive NATO support, and if she does not, then the US should forward base our ETO forces in Poland, with NATO then effectively defunct.

If you think Putin will risk general war for the sake of keeping the whole of the Ukraine in Moscow's orbit, I think you are wrong.

If you think we have no national interest there, I disagree far more. Putin is determined to maintain the appearance of Russian international relevance, eminence even, by screwing with us wherever we are. We have no internal lines of communication to the world, Canada and Mexico excepted. Far better to occupy Putin where we have allies with firm grudges against Russia of long standing, and themselves a direct national interest in fencing the Bear. Perhaps Poland and Lithuania both are good candidates, I seem to recall the forces of Poland-Lithuania once did the West a very great service (not that there's any evidence they were much appreciated then either...).

If Russia insists on keeping a bone in it's nose, instead of adopting the very slightly more cultured political stylings of Rousseauan-Endarkenment Europe, then it should expect to see spears pointed at it wherever it lunges.

America, to the very limited extent it still represents actual progress in political economy--the spirit of 1776, the Revolution that Worked(TM)--as opposed to the imported and adopted Progressive political style of Europe; America has in interest in reducing the influence of every lesser political philosophy, because all others have in interest in reducing us.

Not that any of that means anything...Obama would not personally be opposed to Putin sailing untroubled up the Seine and Thames. He likely could not by internal political pressure be made to care.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
There's no way in the world the West is going to support armed civil war in Ukraine. You might as well ask for the Martians to intervene.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Radek Sikorski's former colleagues in the Polish Defense Ministry certainly DON'T want their cars exploding in the middle of Warsaw, should they start arming the Lviv mujahadeen to bleed the Russians. Thank God that won't happen, Sikorski understands in the event of a Ukrainian civil war Poland will be flooded with refugees. Hell, even if western rump Ukraine joins the EU guess where most Ukrainians will go initially with lax border controls? Poland.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
this rant makes no sense
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Your claims contain no counterpoint. Do you get paid the same to splutter?
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
"The Ukraine should vote on partition, to the very limited extent that it prepares the political battlespace for the upcoming civil war." A civil war the Banderisti would lose and lose badly. Look, Lviv is already free to go and do whatever it likes. The attitude in the Crimea is clearly don't let the door hit your pro-Nazi butts on the way out. The only way there will be a civil war is if a government installed by street violence in Kiev decides no one in the East has any ability to defy it or its Eurocrat edicts either peacefully or violently.

Running a roving street battle Maidan against poorly paid cops who know they're serving a corrupt politician and an Army that refuses to deploy heavy weapons is one thing. Hurling brownshirts at Kharkiv home guards backed by Russian special forces "volunteers" and tanks is gonna be something else entirely. Tommy I don't think your boys from Galicia have it in them to do more than ethnically cleanse some Russian-speaking babushkas penniless enough to have had no place to flee to in the east.

"The US should support pro-western forces with arms in that war."

The US isn't going to do that, not because as Col. Ralph Peters insists because Obama is simply awed by the raw bullying of Putin, but because the US government is broke and our ability to print dollars to fund any adventure we like is about to get curtailed harshly by China, along with Russia.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
"The attitude in the Crimea is clearly don't let the door hit your pro-Nazi butts on the way out."

That's the line Putin's organs have been pumping out for days, can't imagine anyone buying it unless they find Russia can do no wrong.

"Tommy I don't think your boys from Galicia have it in them to do more than ethnically cleanse some Russian-speaking babushkas penniless enough to have had no place to flee to in the east."

You know if it came to that, that'd be fine. They are only there because Stalin shipped them in, let Stalin's heir Putin take them back.

"The US isn't going to do that,"

Oh I know that, like I said, I doubt if Obama personally would be troubled by Putin claiming the Thames or Seine as internal Russian waters.

And America is not broke, the Progressive Blue Nation is broke. That's a good thing really, it lets us become classical liberals again--clearly Rousseau's alternative is a bad idea.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
how so?

the Eastern Ukrainians just toppled all their Lenine statues too

so there is one Ukrainian identity, and it ain't EUropean, nor Russian

They want to be a sovereign state
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
How so to which point?
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
the catholic church and the orthodox church are praying together the "martyrs", since the orthodoxes were said to be pro russians... it looks like that they are pro Ukraine
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
It is the Churches, thank God, that have prevented all the outside agitators who hoped for a bloodbath (Spilna Sprava is reportedly bankrolled by George Soros) AND the Yanukovich thugs who were shooting unarmed people (while some of the Maidanists were shooting cops who were not attacking them) from becoming an all out civil war.

Now if any knucklehead sunzab-tches from Lviv can be kept out of Odessa, Kharkiv and the Crimea, perhaps any further nonsense can be averted. Riot police who wouldn't shoot Maidanists and risk dying for 700 bucks a month salary certainly aren't going to team up with the demoralized Ukrainian army to brutally surpress a 'Putin inspired uprising' of Russian-speaking Ukrainians flipping Kiev and the EU the bird in Kharkiv.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
I'm certainly not hoping for a bloodbath, I'm just certain Putin wants one rather than having the Ukrainians slip out of Moscow's orbit entirely--which the Ukrainians have a perfect right to remove themselves from if they wish.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Has it occurred to you that Putin allowed Yanukovich to fall because he wanted the eastern Ukraine to turn to Moscow for protection and financial aid -- something that is already happening despite all the rage of the Russophobic Anglo-American media?

Apparently both McInsane and Nuland were too stupid to think that far ahead while they poured $5 billiion worth of gasoline on the Maidan fire and now there isn't going to be anything they can do if E. Ukraine declares total autonomy or independence from Kiev. Let the rump parliament invade Kharkiv themselves, the demoralized Berkut and the Ukrainian Army won't do it for them!
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
not gonna happen, Putin wants to keep the whole country altogether, like Obama, Germany France Poland,

they have to find a modus vivendi that can suit all

they all have been on phone during days and nights long for the las couple of days

34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Actually, I expect Putin not to be satisfied with having the far eastern Ukraine or keeping access to the Black Sea. Putin needs to take them and to be seen taking them, or many other once-Soviet, Tsarist conquered regions will also go.

It won;t be pro-Western Ukrainians invading east, but the east trying to suppress the west.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
And more to the point, they have the right to remove themselves on their terms, too, not Putypoots.

Not even if we can temporarily get assistance from Moscow about Iran by cutting the Ukrainians off at the knees.

Do we sell out Poland next, if Moscow starts to help out Tehran again? Do we abandon Budapest then?
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Why do all of the 'rights' of Ukrainians as you define them involve becoming slaves to the EU-SSR and viewing Russia as their eternal enemy? Do you speak for Ukrainians in Sevastapol, Kharkiv or Lugansk? Obviously not yet our Western media all claims that this rump parliament does. Three days ago Yanuk had to go and Ukraine had to have elections right away. Now that Yanuk's gone the Long Parliament wants to put off a vote so they can install by coup Tymoshenko who was freed from prison and who has been rejected by the voters of Ukraine!

A week ago it was RUSSIA warning the U.S. to respect the 1994 treaty. Now elections don't need to happen so soon, because some Party of Regions deputies have been bribed to go the other way and sell out their constituents, while the brownshirts among the Maidan presume nobody in the East has the guts to use the same type of tactics or non-violent civil disobedience against THEM. Well they're about to find out eastern Ukrainians can halt trains too.

You Galician ultranationalists made this bed, you seized parliament through force, now lie in it. Or blame Putin when the most industrialized parts of the country and the Crimea decide that since Lviv gets to de facto secede so do they!
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
The Ukrainians have a right to leave Moscow's orbit, and this involves them becoming slaves to no one--it's Moscow presuming to rule them. I've not claimed to speak for anyone but myself, have I? Actually, elections are scheduled quite soon. The question is whether the pro-Russian forces will at this point try to interfere with them in the areas they hold sway.

"A week ago it was RUSSIA warning the U.S. to respect the 1994 treaty. "

And I should care because...?

"You Galician ultranationalists made this bed, you seized parliament through force, now lie in it."

Keep beating that strawman. You'll kill him.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Poland won't be sold out, they can defend themselves quite nicely, this is not 1939. The aggression is all going to be coming from Kiev against peaceful people in the East who didn't want to be part of the EU-SSR, and that aggression will fail. Just like the neocon/globalist plot to topple Assad and impose a Qatari/Saudi puppet government in that country has failed despite all their agitation for direct U.S. involvement.

Stop claiming eternal victimhood and take charge of your country, if you are Ukrainian, and leave the U.S. and my tax money out of it! Stop whoring for Soros and tolerating neo-Nazis!
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
You're just flailing around all over, aren't you? First I'm a Naval War College Prof, then I'm Galician, then I'm Ukrainian.

You don't know anything, do you?

And really, a Qatari/Saudi puppet in Syria sounds a lot better than either current main side winning--the Saudis and Qataris have a lot to lose. Short of that, I prefer shipping enough arms in to each side to make sure no one wins--that way Iran doesn't either.

"Stop whoring for Soros and tolerating neo-Nazis!"

While I'm personally doing neither, we have only your and Putin's word that wanting liberty from Moscow means Ukrainians are pro-Nazi.

I think he may be a little too self interested to take at face value.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
"the Eastern Ukrainians just toppled all their Lenine statues too"

And were those ethnically Ukrainian, or ethnically Russian?

The falling statues do not themselves prove your point.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
it proves that the unrest is a Ukrainian domestic problem whereas symbols that tied Ukraine to Russia soviet era are destroyed

None had interest that it degenerated, and the religious on both sides are working to appeasement

Fedorovski has a warning:

http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2014/02/22/1824585-il-s-agit-d-une-menace-pour-la-paix-mondiale.html

"is Putin really a puppet-master..."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/21/opinion/dougherty-putin-headache-ukraine/index.html?sr=sharebar_facebook
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
"is Putin really a puppet-master..."

When he is trying to be the only question is who does he want to put strings on and should we help, oppose, or not care. If it's the Ukraine, we should oppose as strenuously as possible.

Which, with Obama in charge, as I've pointed out, means doing nothing.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Worthless quisling. Ask any Ukrainian if it is a country or not.

Appease Putin, you worthless traitor. Maybe you can room with him in hell.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
The gentle proposal was to let the Ukrainians vote on the matter. Either to remain together in this particular national entity, or part and go their separate ways. As they wish, and as they choose.......

On yer way out, want your hat?....'>>.......
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
No, the ungentle flavor of Goldman's writing was that the Ukraine should accept whatever comes, including Putin's tanks and boots.

No.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
No, as a pragmatist Goldman understands a bankrupt parliament in Kiev can't impose its will on the eastern part of Ukraine, much less enact EU tariff barriers with Russia that Lugansk would simply ignore. That's the bottom line whether the Anglo-American media dominated by rabidly anti-Russian pundits understands that or not.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
If Goldman was a pragmatist, he wouldn't be proposing a deal with Putin we'd have to cut again and again.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
oh gosh, it's not over, from Ulrich speck a german political analyst

"Extremely tense and emotional events unfolding on Maidan tonight. According to the announced plan for tonight, a funeral service for the men who lost their lives yesterday in battles against the regime was supposed to be held. The three opposition party leaders (Yatseniuk, Klitschko, Tiahnybok), Poroshenko and other politicians were invited onto the stage together with priests. The crowd (40-50 thousand people) whistled at them, and demanded explanations regarding today's "deal" with Yanukovych. Most people in the crowd are, to put it mildly, not happy that an agreement was signed with the person they see as responsible for 77 dead and several hundred injured civilians. The funeral service was interrupted when one of the coffins was brought directly to the front of the stage during Klitschko's speech, and the crowd began shouting "who will answer for this?!". Then a "Sotnia" (unit) commander who had personally fought with riot police during the past days, forced his way onto the stage. His short emotional speech, during which he stressed that his unit was very well armed, ended with an ultimatum to the opposition leaders: either force the President's resignation by 10 am tomorrow, and renounce your deal with Yanukovych (according to which an election is scheduled for 10 months from now), or this commander's Sotnia will advance ("storm") the government quarter. Dmytro Yarosh from the Right Sector then came onto the stage and proclaimed essentially the same thing. It should be noted that this morning, over 1000 Interior Ministry troops were withdrawn from the government quarter, and this afternoon those troops who were from southern Ukraine were transported home. However, significant numbers of well armed government troops remain inside the Presidential Administration and Cabinet of Ministers buildings. It is now clear that the opposition's "negotiations" are not acceptable to Maidan, and the political leaders are NOT in control. Heaven help us, but I feel we're in for more bloodshed - soon."

and the facebook site for the Maiden revolt supporters

https://www.facebook.com/euromaidanpr
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
it looks like that calm is back

do we owe that to Steinmier, Fabius, Sikorski? or has Putin summoned the Ukraine president,? probably that the unrests would have extended to Russia too

anyways bravo to the diplomacy of the few countries that could put their weight facing Russia, Ashton and the EU are a joke !
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
We do owe Radek Sikorski a great debt, for telling the Maidanists no matter how spiffy their barricades or riot gear they'd be dead if they didn't seek a political solution. Well maybe not but they'd certainly die if they went on the offensive trying to force . Thank God at least somebody in Poland realizes being a frontline state for a Ukrainian Civil War spurred on by the most thuggish elements in DC would be a bad proposition. Radek also knows the Banderisti assassinated Polish officers pre-Hitler-Stalin Pact AND the UPA killed lots of Polish civilians and fought the London-supporting anti-Communist Polish Home Army while allied with the Nazis!!!! Stupid neocon hacks are constantly trying to rewrite history to glorify their eternal proxy wars against Moscow!
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
"We do owe Radek Sikorski a great debt, for telling the Maidanists no matter how spiffy their barricades or riot gear they'd be dead if they didn't seek a political solution."

There is no political solution without a lot of Russians being killed by Ukrainians, and vice versa, because Putin does not want to see the Ukraine go. You get that? He wants the Ukraine, left-bank, right bank, the whole thing.

"Radek also knows the Banderisti assassinated Polish officers pre-Hitler-Stalin Pact AND the UPA killed lots of Polish civilians and fought the London-supporting anti-Communist Polish Home Army while allied with the Nazis!!!!"

So? The West didn't have the wit to support either the Finns or the Ukrainians, where else should they go for help? To h3ll? Because they were opposing Mother Russia? Mother Russia needed and needs to be reduced in influence if she can only be an inimical influence on the world. Helping the Norks, Iranians, or Syrians or whoever else anytime they need to wedge a little leverage has gotten more than merely old.

And Mr. Goldman, thinking we can get any assistance from the Russians about anything is a fantasy. Pay them once, and the price will be too high once, and you'll need to pay it again and again. The only way to deal with the Russians is with a whip, a truncheon, holdout gun, and a deadman switch on the birds that fly once.

The Ukrainians treated loyal Jews well, as countrymen, so did the Finns. It's Inequitable Files here who forgets, or has never seen, one of the more interesting photographs of WWII--the remnants of the Jewish Brigade of the Finnish Army taking seder under the banners of the Wehrmacht and if I recall the SS at that. The Finns, when asked by the Nazis to hand over their Jew--with the Nazi's their only support against the Russians--the Finns told the Germans no and don't ask again. The Stepan Bandera had a far worse position, but much the same attitude.

"Stupid neocon hacks are constantly trying to rewrite history to glorify their eternal proxy wars against Moscow!"

If Moscow would purge itself of thugs, no American patriot would need to be concerned with what Moscow did with what was legitimately in Moscow's interest. I won't be holding my breath.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
"There is no political solution without a lot of Russians being killed by Ukrainians, and vice versa, because Putin does not want to see the Ukraine go. You get that? He wants the Ukraine, left-bank, right bank, the whole thing." There is no evidence Putin 'wants' all of Ukraine, or even wants to formally annex the Kharkiv Hetmanate or whatever they'll call it after they secede and become the next Abkhazia/South Ossetia -- a statelet linked to the RF but not in it.

You can make a very strong circumstantial case that Russia wants the Crimea back, based on the warnings to the FT and the fiercely pro-Russian movements now massing there, plus years of Moscow Mayor Luzhkov's support for Sevastapol as a Russian city in Ukraine that Kuchma tolerated.

But taking back Kiev, sending in the tanks? Um, no. If Putin intended to do that, why did he allow Yanukovich to be toppled? Your claim of imminent Russian invasion and a fanatical Russian desire to rule over the parts of Ukraine that fear or hate Russia has absolutely no evidence to support it. But if Tymoshenko loses Crimea and Kharkiv her and the Maidanists will only have themselves to blame by making force, not the ballot box, the determiner of who runs parliament!

All these hysterical predictions of Russian aggression -- after 08/08/08 PJM's contributors mostly agreed Putin would take Tblisi and keep rolling on to Kiev, Talinn, Vilnius and Riga -- never came true.
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
Sure, Putin ordered Yuschenko poisoned with dioxin because he's such sweetheart.

"All these hysterical predictions of Russian aggression -- after 08/08/08 PJM's contributors mostly agreed Putin would take Tblisi and keep rolling on to Kiev, Talinn, Vilnius and Riga -- never came true.!"

You're saying the Russians didn't invade Georgia, or are you saying they left?
34 weeks ago
34 weeks ago Link To Comment
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