Left and Right and the Confusion over War in Libya
On the latter point, Anne Applebaum points out today that the U.S. should keep expectations low, and not make a big point about “winning.” She writes, “ We have intervened and, for better or for worse, we will now be partly responsible for the outcome — and one of the ways in which we can promote a better outcome is to make sure we keep expectations low.” She concludes that Obama should “offer no encouragement to anyone who expects us to go in, gung-ho for democracy, and win the war.” Which, of course, is precisely what the rebels want, and expect the United States to accomplish on their behalf.
On the non-interventionist side is president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, the brilliant analyst and former New York Times columnist Leslie H. Gelb, who goes so far as to call the Libyan imbroglio a “manufactured crisis.” Gelb sees no states having any vital interests at stake in Libya at all. And he sees a coalition of “neoconservatives and liberal humanitarian interventionists”; an alliance, if you will, of Bill Kristol of The Weekly Standard and John B. Judis at The New Republic — both offering similar arguments for intervention-working together to trap “another U.S. president into acting as if the opposite were true.”
He calls them a “terrible duo” raising phony issues of “slaughter” and “genocide,” which he thinks makes the media go crazy. We have no coherent goal, he agrees, simply because there is no central interest in Libya existing. Yes, Gelb says, many want to do good. Gelb fears that interventionists who use Judis’s argument — that we act immediately and have no time to deliberate in Congress – are revealing a “kneejerk reaction” in which they see blood and insist the U.S. step in and take charge.
Gelb is right about one thing. A no-fly zone by itself will not do the job. To save lives, Gaddafi’s ground forces have to be hit and destroyed; there is no alternative. That means more than a limited operation the president has proclaimed, and some would argue it will lead inevitably to advisors on the ground, troops to help direct the rebels, and even — if the rebels prove incapable of acting on their own — joining in the fighting.
Today, I watched the first rate NBC news correspondent Richard Engel report from the front lines of the would-be rebel advance. Engel reported that the rebels are incompetent, ill-equipped, and complete amateurs, and that many cannot even load, not to speak of shoot, any kind of gun. He noted that as he accompanied them on an advance, they came upon a small group of Gaddafi’s loyal troops. What did they do? Immediately retreat rather than fight. And this is supposed to have been an advance towards Tripoli. Engel added that the rebels with whom he has spoken expect the U.S. to do the job for them — that is, to eliminate Gaddafi, defeat him, and hand power over to them.
What Gelb fears is that the U.S. strategy is to talk big and hope others do the work. The Arabs say “you do it,” notes Gelb, but he writes that “it is no surprise that those Arabs are nowhere to be found when it comes to translating their heroic rhetoric into action.” Already they are backing away, because they found the no-fly-zone led to some civilian deaths. That is like saying “I demand that we fight back” but then arguing that “we can’t use any guns; they’re too dangerous.”
On the other hand, Gelb’s colleague at Tina Brown and company, British historian Niall Ferguson, argues that Obama is “a president without a strategy,” something with which almost all sides agree upon. He is on target when he notes the following:
Whatever the wording of the United Nations Security Council resolution, the United States is now at war with the Libyan government, and the aim of this war is the overthrow of Gaddafi. In the words of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton: “If you don’t get him out and if you don’t support the opposition and he stays in power, there’s no telling what he will do.” She doubtless remembers more clearly than Obama what happened in Bosnia, when her husband took years to approve effective military intervention. Had she been president, my guess is we’d have taken swifter action. But in this play, she’s Lady Macbeth, urging Obama to get tough.
Ferguson also thinks this should have been done from the start, not late in the game when Gaddafi already gained the upper hand. He correctly fears that it might be too late. And he raises the fear that those rebels we are backing could turn out to be our enemies, radical Islamic supporters so popular in the rebel stronghold of Benghazi. Ferguson notes accurately that coming from all the loudspeakers were not cries of “God Bless America” but rather, “Allahu Akbar.” Instead of the kind of Western democratization John Judis thinks will occur, Ferguson raises the prospect of a restoration of the old regime, a protracted civil war, an Islamist takeover, a Sunni-Shiite conflict or a combination of all of these.
So we are at war in Libya, and despite the protestations of a limited affair with only air forays protecting a no-flight zone, escalation lies on the horizon. Obama now uses arguments he vehemently protested when made by George W. Bush, as Mona Charen points out. Why are the reasons he raised as objections to ousting Saddam Hussein no longer relevant when it comes to Gaddafi, even though, as detestable as he is, he is far less of a threat to the United States than Saddam was? We are in the midst of what Victor Davis Hanson correctly argues is “a paradox, resulting from the president’s belatedly announcing that Moammar Qaddafi must go, using military force against him, and then denying that our objective is to see him leave.”
So on all sides, Right and Left are confused, and spokesmen find themselves with unusual allies. The other day Ralph Nader cited as proof of the unconstitutionality of the Libyan war the views of Judge Napolitano, Fox News’s ultra-libertarian analyst who also believes that Pearl Harbor was a conspiracy by FDR to get us into war through the back door. And Dennis Kucinich calls for Obama’s impeachment, something, I suspect, that in a short time, more than a few anti-interventionist Republicans like Ron Paul will join right in on.
These are indeed uneasy times. With an incompetent president far out of his league, we are left here without leadership, in the midst of a war which, once having started, would be a disaster for us to lose. We have few alternatives that are any good. As Hanson so aptly writes:
And as far as conservatives go, if they supported Bush’s invading Iraq and stayed with him for seven years to foster constitutional government, surely they should rally behind Obama’s far more limited warmaking, even if Obama — in the fashion of Bill Clinton, but unlike both the elder and the younger Bush — never went to the House and Senate to get authorization for military action.
No one can predict what the future holds. I fear, however, that the outcome will not be good. I hope that I’m wrong.






“[Clinton] doubtless remembers more clearly than Obama what happened in Bosnia, when her husband took years to approve effective military intervention.”
Oh – you’re referring to that other imbroglio and “manufactured crisis.”
Someday, if we even survive the poisonous Obama era, a “brilliant analyst” may finally take note of the peculiar fact that we have curried favor with the Muslim terrorists for decades yet remained completely confused about his Jihad against us. We are still incompetently fighting their wars, bulldozing mountains of gold from our treasuries into the bulging coffers of Jihad, and have murdered our natural allies and abetted our natural enemies. And still we wonder why its all gone so wrong.
After systematically betraying our foundational precepts, after admitting millions of Muslim enemies into our national precincts, now we wring our hands and throw them in the air, we stare slack-jawed, deep in confusion about how we got to this place…
Somewhere between Reagan and either Bush1 or Clinton1 we lost our fricking minds. I think it began when Bush1 failed to complete Desert Storm and install an America-friendly regime in Iraq. This was augmented by awarding a Jihad mini-state to the Muslim marauders of Yugoslavia in the hopes of pleasing our Muslim enemies. Imbroglio and “manufactured crisis” barely begin to describe that gargantuan misstep in American history. It has been a natural progression from there into all the subsequent Jihad we have witnessed ever since.
We lost our minds the instant Reagan left office. Gulf War I was pointless in and of itself. We should never have had any alliances with, or delivered any assistance to, any Muslim nation, tribe, organization, or individual. They are all bad, without exception, and supporting them is never in US interests.
I have not forgotten that during Bush I’s campaign versus Bill Clinton, he was all gung ho for fighting Serbs on behalf of the Muslims.
Any US politician – and even any journalist – who advocates the US going to war on behalf of any Muslim power is a traitor, and should be treated as such.
Why is congress etc., not jumping up and down saying ‘we did not give you permission”!!!???? are they afraid of Obama???? he just seems to walk all over America and we don’t fight back!!!
Get this man out of office!!! and be darned careful who we put in. We are turning into a nation of mush
Is “mush” a polite word for sewage?
This topic is getting beaten to death at PJM. (What’s happening in Japan?)
This action IS an impeachable offense. But, who, in the present Congress, has the testosterone or hormones, to start proceedings against our first, incompetent, petulant, ethnically disabled, morally challenged, mac-daddy, of a president?
This fool has never been in charge of anything requiring responsibility.
How can you expect anything of rational, emotional, humanistic, philanthropic, intelligent, or just plain sensible, from this completely accommodated failure?
PLEASE!!!!! GIVE US CREDIT FOR A LITTLE MORE INTELLIGENCE
Man – can people not see why it is in America’s interest to get rid of Khaddafi? Seriously? Are they idiots? What does a person need to do to be worthy of being gotten rid of? What do we have a military for? Do they understand anything about the military? Do they even understand what oil supply means? Who are these people? By the grace of what indulgant god do these ignorant, subverted, passive-aggressive 15-yr-old 45 year olds have any voice that I have to listen to, even though it’s not coming from a mouth in the same room as me? Is everything really so mysterious? The same people who were rejoicing over the revolt against Qadafi – as they rejoiced in the revolts against lesser tyrants – and who were anxious that the rebels would lose are now pissed off about American intervention on behalf of those people and rebels and against the vampire Gaddafi? Have I fallen through the Looking Glass, or am I trapped in a room of Willy Wonka’s Chocolate Factory? Did someone slip me acid that lasts 10 years? Could this great country really be full of such complete fucking intellectual and moral idiots?
Did you REALLY have to ask that final question?
Really? That’s what you perceive? Please allow me to disabuse you of this notion.
Khadafi is a tin-pot tyrant, but he backed down when Reagan went after him and killed his kid. When Bush went after 2 Muslim States, Khadafi canceled his nuke program, not wanting to be next. Do I want him gone? If we have a strong President who’ll “reads him from the Good Book”, I do not care if he stays and restrains himself to killing his Muslim citizens.
Would replacing him be good? It is becoming pretty clear that the options truly stink. We have two other choices: the Muslim Brotherhood guy; or the rebels in Benghazi with ties to al-Quaeda. As long as it seemed that there was a chance to replace this regime with a non-fundamentalist regime, there was a glimmer of hope. That hope is now gone.
Of course, now that that hope is dead, THAT’S when Obama decides to act! His actions, as usual, run exactly counter to American interests. He angers both Left and Right. Kucinich AND Paul? Wow. Nice work, doofus!
C. Someone slipped you acid that lasts 10 years.
Stop ranting and get a hold of yourself. Obama should not have authorized that we join the Brits and Frogs on bombing Libya, especially without congressional approval. We have no national interests there. The Brits and Frogs should be able do the job by themselves, against a banana republic dictator. If they can’t, they should join the “turd world nations” club. Much of British and French oil comes from Libya. Libya provides only about 3% of the world’s oil, and none to us. To depose a murderous dictator in Libya, especially when we don’t know what we will get in return (democracy or Islamists?), is not enough reason for us to make war.
Don’t you realize that Obambi is abdicating his authority and office? And he knows that he can rest for the remainder of his term, even if there is a motion to impeach.
Where the hell is he going on his next vacation?
This episode indicates how weak Obama’s core beliefs are: He had the right idea by listening to Sec-Def Gates and others who cautioned regarding our national interests and concern about the rebels’ beliefs. The battle reverses and he listens to the women Powers, Clinton and Rice, authorizes use of force without congress and is planning to subcontract our military to the French and Arab League. And he did it all while on spring break!!!!
I just figured it out! No fly zone. Naval arms embargo. NATO is in the lead, not the US, but Turkey will appose any crusader NATO involvement. Libya is a practice run for doing Iran next! Right?
No, he wasn’t on “spring break”. He was “working” in Brazil, giving away our oil interests to George Soros and the Brazilian people. He guaranteed a $2B loan to Brazil to finance their offshore drilling operations. George Soros is heavily invested in the oil company that will do the drilling. Meanwhile lots of American oil workers along the Gulf coast are without work because the Obama Administration and their green supporters are against offshore drilling.
Sorry, the above comment was to @mikey, above you.
Good work. Hard to see how Obama can face this info in a debate come the run-up to 2012.
I can already predict what he’ll say. It’ll be something along the lines of being a President is a lot different from running for the office.
Yeah, tell us about it. It turned Obama into Bush every full moon.
Absolutely disgusting. America, UK, and all other non-Muslim nations should stay out of this conflict. It is for Muslims only to deal with. Let the Muslims use their great oil wealth, their military and their planes, etc. Let Muslims fight this war if that is what they want.
And who will be the winners? Al Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood?
Excellent article. One quibble: I have watched Richard Engel’s reporting for years, and I would not use the expression “first-rate” in the same paragraph, let alone in the same sentence, or, God forbid, in close proximity to his name. I’m not on a mission here, so I won’t explain.
Anyone can see the ambush. Where are the Arab planes?
Not one rifle.
Spindok
Well Ron, you are spot on with your quotes, but where is the uproar?
This whole operation might be a test to see what he can get away with.
Look out for the Live Fire round about 2 or 6 months before the 2012 election.
Anybody who thinks they aren’t gaming that kind of stuff on an active basis is a helpless fool.
Hussein is right on target with his primary goal: bring down America, in every way possible: economy, reputation, morale. He is a hater along with his hitlerite mentors Farrakhan and Wright. It’s so amazing that half the American people still support him according to the stats on realclearpolitics.com… America seems to have gone off its rocker: now you have people on the right justifying this illegal war by recalling Qadaffi’s terror acts from decades ago, but what does that have to do with the current Arab world’s revolutions? Answer: nothing. Americans need to wake up and slay the federal monster before they go down into oblivion…
Ron, your title to this essay uses the correct term; “Confusion”.
The “confusion” is all in Obama’s head. Can you imagine what an unprepared statement would sound like from our “President”?
Read comment #17 at PJM article “America Through the Looking Glass”,
http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/america-through-the-looking-glass/
by Victor Davis Hanson, for an idea of what it would sound like.
Only the Left is confused. Obama is doing something they abhor. Even they can see obama morph into Super-Bush. They are deeply conflicted. Even they cannot whitewash this. They cannot, because their hearts aren’t in it. Even their attempts to justify it, or blame the right somehow, simply lack any conviction.
The Right is not confused, but they are just wrong. “Now that we are in it, we should focus on winning.” BS! We should stop now. This would be a great time to stop. The Arab league has stated that this is not what they wanted. “Okay, we’ll stop now. What, exactly, do you want us to do?” It is the perfect out.
If we,as a Republic, resolve to go to war, then we should prosecute the war to its fullest. However, this was a unilateral action by our President. We are NOT obligated to support this in any way. Not at all.
Begin impeachment proceedings. Even if you fail, it must be attempted. It MUST! The legal grounds could not be more clear! What are you waiting for, Congress? Fiery letters in the sky?!?
Bring the issue into focus, or the next President could do the same thing, whether Dem or Pub. You won’t be able to fight it then, because he’ll get to point at this and show the hypocrisy. Then, we won’t get substance in a future discussion of this. We’ll get finger-pointing and name-calling. This is the one chance to get bi-partisan support. Kucinich (D) and Paul (R) are already calling for it.
Even if you fail, you must try! You are certainly no believer in the Constitution, if you don’t!
There. The gauntlet is down.
Doesn’t the President have at least 60 days before he has to go to Congress? Meghan Kelly claimed tonight that “it wasn’t right, BUT Presidents have been doing this for forty years.” She also cited Truman’s going into Korea with the UN mandate.
In other words, I think that you are completely overreacting with this impeachment talk. It may be an odd decision, but that’s why we have a CIC, isn’t it?
You could introduce a bill to stop the commitment, but impeachment? C’mon.
It is 90 days.
The President is actually only CiC in times of war. Only Congress can declare war. Only Congress can start a war. Only the President can end the war. Congress can defund the war, or IMPEACH.
There is no funding for this war. He is requiring the military to redirect resources allocated by law to other purposes. This is illegal, too.
The President is specifically empowered to act in the face of an imminent attack, or in certain situations on the high seas (piracy, et al).
Impeachment? No, I am not going too far. This is a gross usurpation of Congress’ authority by the President. If they do not try to impeach, there will be no restraining future Presidents.
Even the President must be held accountable to the law. Especially the President. This one has gone rogue. We must try to rein him in, or we have an Emperor, not a President.
Dwight, you’re a Lefty, but even you must see the danger in this to your side. What if a Pub gets into office and does the same? Then what?
Marc, C’mon, the mentality that pushes you to mention impeachment is what keeps you guys marginalized. Lawrence and Meghan Kelly have pointed out some of the precedent here, but what you see is red meat dangling from a stick and you can’t help drooling.
For the 100th time, the reason that it is difficult to take many posters here seriously, is that they slip easily into anti-Obama epithets and expostulations, probably something to do with the melding of the internet and Scotch-Irish tradition. When you are around these people in person, you can pick up some money making bets and getting odds from those who have to back up their talk with money, or else backing down. Yes, they may try to start a fight to wriggle off the hook, or just because that is what they do, but, hey, it is part of this country’s wonderful diversity.
We have wandering minstrels such as Mr Lucky who can zero in on supposed internet poseurs such as I, ignoring the purity of my motives (and logic) because they have a different agenda.
Seriously, drop the impeachment talk, and I, for one, will take YOU a bit more seriously.
Yeah, a very serious case of Ping Pong Tongue…
“…what you see is red meat dangling from a stick and you can’t help drooling.”
“…Meghan Kelly…”
“…the purity of my motives…”
“…those who have to back up their talk with money…”
“…fight to wriggle off the hook…”
“…the mentality that pushes you…”
Of course D-White, these will make for great Death Metal lyrics, for you new 8-track tape to be sold at midnight on Beltane 2012. So good to see that Red Pencil Neck tongue lashing of all who might propose something disapproved of, released for… consumption.
What the hell, some random D-White witticisms.
The crush unrequited, like a reverse Down in the Boondocks –
38. Dwight
“I am fascinated by Alaska, but not quite so much by her any more. It’s like she works at sounding like a hick.”
October 20, 2010 – 5:14 am
And a lot more -
The “real” Pick It Fence BUT bares its, what, soul? No kidding –
72. Dwight
“I will plead guilty to being a flawed human being who has to make many decisions hoping that they are the right ones, but in any case, knowing that I will have to live with the consequences.”
January 30, 2011 – 5:47 am
Live.
This is a really good “huge” one!
Dwight
“It’s not a huge deal to me, but I’d like to see conclusive evidence that that is Boehner’s natural skin color. If I am wrong I will admit it, but that is an artifically tanned or colored face to my eye.
Or maybe I’m wrong on that.”
January 8, 2011 – 7:15 am
D-White’s “gripping” ad on SomeList –
52. Dwight
“I voted for Obama, but knew that he was just another guy…”
“Evidently, a preponderance of you guys and gals are a bunch of frantic drama queens, creating a non-stop soap opera about the guy.”
“…but you revel in telling these stories to each other around the campfire. This could be the end of western civilization as we know it, blah, blah. Get grip, but then, that might be too boring.”
“Obama is just a small piece of it.”
February 23, 2011 – 8:29 pm
The Birkenstocked Rebel With a Cause talks about you know who –
12. Dwight
“Have you checked out Jesus as one source?”
“Lefties may not even believe in God, but have had a revelation that the government should try to do what Jesus says (and be “sensitive,” except around righties.) God’s revelations come in strange ways, eh?”
December 14, 2010 – 5:41 am
A hungry New England tweed refugee English teacher cries out for understanding. And gives pension assurance details –
Dwight
“Anyway, do you have anything to put on the table here, or just want to be jealous of my estate with its barbed wire, guard dogs, surv. cameras, and ten-year supplies of sunlight, moonlight, and do-right?”
October 29, 2010 – 11:08 am
500mcgs of pure Modern Liberalism will do this –
Dwight
“Can you cite ONE time when Obama has said, ‘they are against me because I am black’”
July 27, 2010 – 1:36 pm
And you say, “Impossible”
As he hands you a bone.
I am impressed when you go back to the dusty files as is your wont, for fragments of the collected works. Do you have daily recitations, possibly hymns thereof at the Lucky-dome? Is it a solo, or a whole chorus? I am deeply touched.
Sure D-White. How lame will you go, dear “Centrist”? History is only for that which you deem necessary to support the now so obvious left leaning Pick It Fence BUT Dogma.
Mr. President will certainly look good now, better than the model you have been advertising. Just think, no one can show facts beyond the Birkenstocked Red Pencil Neck imposed time line. Mr. President will be free of himself, much the same state you desire for the Ping Pong Tongue.
You could say, a “no time zone” of sorts. Bring in the tweed F-15s and smoke ‘um! Yeah, really, an appropriate use of imaginary force. Modern Liberals like that. Like playing house or doctor or army with other people’s lives. Thing is D-White, Modern Liberals aren’t good anymore at imagining either.
What are they good at?
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
sitting here listening to news talking head after t.h. trying to figure out why are we doing bla bla bla.
still trying to avoid logical thinking if you ask me. once you look at el presidente as a wanna be dictator, and what does this action mean toward that objective, you will understand why he goes out of country and orders the military to bomb amother country.
military kinda getting used to taking orders to bomb and make illegal war?
$pending boy was about to get cut off. now that is page 27 news? $$$$ continues, just stepped up a notch.
going around and minimizing congress. they are qickly becoming a non-entity. not many backbones there.
foreign military giving orders to our military?
el prez, n.a.t.o. & u.n. sending us into war, w/o asking anybody? 1984 anyone?
he sends the world into further turmoil while on vacation. what does he care? the more tired of war we become, the less likely to revolt?
what will this fool do when he loses in late 2012 and becomes a lame duck?
God help us all if we can’t get this maniac out of that office soon. he and gadaffi have a lot in common.
It is going to be hard to show that the Libyan action is unconstitutional, because the Constitution is vague and laconic on the issue. However there are serious responsible grounds for impeaching Obama because of the Libyan action. A president may be impeached for high misdemeanors. When does negligence become a high misdemeanor? When it threatens the republic. Is that happening? Yes.
Obama has artfully raised neglect to a tactic, central to his methods and strategy. He has never been punished for negligence. The ignorance of Jeremiah Wright’s sermons (when convenient) is an example of neglect as a useful tactic. However the Libyan action is a combination of neglect and aggression against the USA, and it is a high misdemeanor.
The US Govt budgets for 2011 and for all subsequent years are extremely negligent. They are careless, reckless and feckless. In Fiscal 2011 the US govt is budgeted to spend $175.70 for every $100.00 it receives in taxes. Moreover the US Govt has run a deficit every year since 2000, and it is never budgeted to run a surplus. This is ruinous for the republic. The action in Libya is not budgeted, so it must be entirely financed by borrowing – ie taxes in the future. Now the action in Libya is to protect the Libyan people. The UN resolution makes that clear. Obama has said that it is for the benefit of the US but he cannot show how, because it is not true. The US is not harmed because the Libyan people are harmed, any more than Stalin or Mao harmed the US when they killed their people. Only in the world of spirit is everything connected. To smash the US economy for a putative spiritual benefit is a high misdemeanor, because in the world of spirit there is no USA.
Obama chose to act in Libya after deliberation, contemplation, consideration, calculation, consultation, debate and thought. It was not reckless, careless, feckless. The combination of his care for the Libyans and his abuse of the Americans are not two different things. It is one misdemeanor. It is intolerable for the USA. The degradation and exhaustion of the American economy by excessive debt reduces the ability of the nation to fight against a foreign aggressor in the future, and to recover after an attack on the nation .
Obama does this too often. The Libyan action may soon be over but the combination of affection for foreigners and passive aggression against the USA is permanent. The border with Mexico is not secure against Iran’s jihadis. Obama has shown hostility to the idea of securing the border. If, say, in 2017 or 2028 the Iranians assemble and detonate a nuclear device in the USA it will be because they came across the Mexican border with Obama’s help.
We should impeach Obama as soon as possible to save America.
There are some real taboo issues to resolve.
The constitutional requirement in Article I, Section 8, Clause 11, “Congress shall have the power…to declare war…” has become unusable in the modern era.
The ideological right-wing and left-wing of US politics may believe in Article I, Section 8. The great majority of elected representatives, of both parties, do not believe in the utility of Article I, Section 8. The Supreme Court has relatively little to say about war powers.
The constitutional violations have been extraordinary since post WWII. They can not be easily resolved in the short term. The proposed impeachment of the President is a propaganda exercise, at best. It is really surrealistic that the Commander-in-Chief is currently on a good will trip to Latin America.
It is obvious, for all to see, that the Executive branch has utterly defeated congressional power when it comes to modern war and peace.
Maybe, Justice Scalia will be asked to address the freshman Teaists on this constitutional problem, at their next lecture.(Don’t bet on it!)
We could ask the Representative responsible for reading Article I, Section 8, at the beginning of this Session, about its meaning. (Don’t count on an answer.)
This section of the Constitution is utterly dysfunctional.
Not dysfunctional at all. The original wording was not declare war. It was wage war. The Founders purposely split up the powers of making war. It requires a marriage of Congress and the Executive to make war. Congress has to authorize it, and the President must sign off on it. Once war is authorized, then only the President can call it off, and he is CiC during time of war. This is so Congress cannot meddle in the daily running of the war, like the Continental Congress did. The only recourse Congress then has is de-funding the war, and impeachment.
Dividing the power made it so the nation has to come together to make war and no one can do it alone, nor shirk responsibility for it to the people. It was also to prevent an Imperial Presidency, and such Presidents seeking war for their own glory.
“The President is actually only CiC in times of war. Only Congress can declare war. Only Congress can start a war. Only the President can end the war.
congress can defund the war, or IMPEACH.” Marc
“The original wording was not declare war. It was wage war.”
Marc: All well and good, Marc. But it has not been functional since WWII. That means it is dysfunctional. It doesn’t work as intended, not in Korea, not with Vietnam, etc. etc. etc.
“Not dysfunctional at all.” You are living in a dream world.
Actually, the original wording was “make war’. Sorry.
Dysfunctional? Only because folks accept the breaking of the rules when they support the purpose of it.
Many Presidents have pushed the envelope on this, even Reagan. Grenada was not sanctioned by Congress, but Reagan relied on his authority based on “imminent danger” to US citizens, an arguable case, even if dishonest. Efforts in Honduras were never even reported to Congress, as reqired by the War Powers Act of 1973.
Truman got us into Korea, but got Congressional approval for his “police action”.
Polk got us the Mexican-American War.
I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who provoked the Spanish-American war.
The problem is not that it is dysfunctional, but rather, that Congress is dysfunctional. They want to always be on the winning political side. They do not want to commit until they see how it plays out. They do not want to be held responsible for taking a position one way or another. They let the President do these things, so they cannot be held responsible. It is supposed to be a joint effort. It is supposed to require a marriage of President and Congress to take us to war.
The Founders never envisioned career politicians like we have today. Our Founders fought and won an impossible war. 8 of them were caught and hanged by the King. Most survivors were bankrupted. At the Battle of Saratoga, the Brits were using one of the Founders’ house as HQ, and Washington was avoiding shelling it. The owner sidled up to Washington and said, “George, shell the house.” It was his last possession. He would be ruined. He sold himself down the river for his country. Today’s pusillanimous “leaders” sell their country down the river for themselves. Our Founders had spine, and they could not imagine such out-and-out poltroons and traitors as we have today.
“Our country was meant for a moral people. It is wholly unsuited to any other.”
The Constitution is not dysfunctional. The people are.
George Washington was NOT at the Battle of Saratoga; Gates and Arnold were, fighting like hell with each other the whole time, setting up Arnold’s (who fought heroically in the battles on the first day, and weeks later on the deciding day) eventual “treachery.” So of course the Founders knew about the vicissitudes of human nature. The Federalists believed that a powerful central government was necessary, the Anti-Federalists feared what that would become, but lost that Battle. Madison and Hamilton said that the Constitution would provide the necessary check on the powers of the Federal Government, the Anti-Federalists said that it wouldn’t, and demanded that a Bill of Rights be added, which it was the next year. They also spent a lot of time arguing if one representative FOR EVERY THIRTY THOUSAND PEOPLE was the way to go.
That John Adams quote makes for a catchy line to throw into the mix when the discussion is about how we are going to hell, but back then the Federal Government was essentially broke, the country was weak, and they were just making it up as they went along. Imagine if they had had the internet then!
“…demanded that a Bill of Rights…”
Gee D-White, can you count to ten?
Why don’t you make yourself useful and find out how many of the state nominating conventions suggested the right to bear arms as one of the Amendments. Inquiring minds want to know. Contribute something.
Classic. Control. Bulging Red Pencil Neck.
D-White, pull up the map covering part of the blackboard and take a look.
Oh, that “does not apply” 10th amendment…
“…and they were just making it up as they went along.”
You have many contacts
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
Who is Obama ‘taking his orders from’? Seriously, who is pulling the President’s strings? It seems he ‘stalls’ and ‘stalls’ (dithers) on issues, then all of a sudden BOOM he makes a decision… Is our Leader of the free world really THAT indecisive?? Or is ‘someone’ whispering in his ear… And Why is America – Never ‘First’ anymore?
In the Case of Libya, he stalled and stalled, then without even consulting with the U.S. Congress, Boom! The no fly zone is in effect – we are on our way to save the day! No one knows anything more than that… No Objective?? No game plan?? AND our Military will ‘be under the command’ of a foreign commander? Are we now effectively working inside “The New World Order”?? The ‘world’ is setting the tone for how the United States is to act or not act in situations like this ?? Not consulting with Our Congress? Especially when the US is not directly threatened by an enemy? Constitution? What Constitution?
When has the United States ‘ever’ waited for a ‘World Consensus’ before we attacked another country who posed a threat to the United States? [OR] In the case of Iraq, we attacked an oppressive, violent, crazy leader Hussen who was killing his own citizens? The US didn’t wait for a world consensus for this monster, and no, it didn’t work out as planned, but that is not the point. The “world consensus’ put us in this position. Imaginary or not, the US will get blamed for any and all civilian killings in Libya… another excuse to hate us….AND the NEW QUESTION (?) – Just who are the Rebels? Who exactly are we defending? Who are these people? Are they for or against us (when we are not helping them)? Are we defending other terrorists?
Obama has a lot of splainin’ to do when he gets back from “vacation”. People of America want answers… we do not want another WAR!
Personally, I don’t want (an) oppressive leader(s) killing their own citizens. However, there are plenty of Middle East countries who have a Military. Who have money. Who “claim” they are peaceful, want peace and claim they are Saintly. Why is the question not asked to the other ME countries – Why are ‘they’ not helping those who are oppressed why aren’t ‘they’ fighting ‘for peace’ since this is what the “claim” they are all about… Oh, wait, silly me, that was a really, really dumb question.
Seriously, why is the United States always coming to the Aid of people who hate us? This is very frustrating…
Quite frankly, although I do not agree with this group, in this one instance, I understand what Medina of Code Pink says…that the people of ‘said’ country have to fight for their own freedom themselves…United States cannot keep doing it for them…
I’m not confused. This country is full of problem-solvers who could have done an assessment and proposed solutions in a matter of hours or days, weeks ago.
My field is programming, and there are simple and obvious methods that would apply here, or most any where. Roughly, define the problem and desired solution, determine if solution is possible as defined, define inputs and outputs and available methodology, & cost analysis (is solving the problem, presuming that is possible, so expensive it isn’t worth it). There’s more to it, but people do it every day all across the country.
But obviously not our gov, this is a PR adventure, aimed at polls and votes, etc. People may differ on many of the above, as applied to Libya, but who can differ on the notion that implementing half-baked and poorly considered measures makes sense by any standard?
Our track record of nation building since WW II. No Hit’s No Runs and way
to many errors..