Is Bill Ayers Now Playing Conservatives? Why He Should Not be Taken Seriously
So, was Ayers, as Scott Johnson thinks, simply “putting Leary on”? If so, he did it again, to a far more reputable mainstream source. He told the very highly regarded mainstream publication, National Journal, the same thing! Here is Will Englund’s Oct.3rd dispatch:
Payment Due
Who actually wrote Dreams From My Father? The book cover says Barack Obama, but one corner of the right-wing blogosphere thinks Obama had a ghostwriter—and that it was Bill Ayers, onetime Weatherman, current academic, perpetual radical. National Journal caught up with Ayers at a recent book festival where he was exhorting a small crowd of listeners to remember that they are citizens, not subjects. “Open your eyes,” he said. “Pay attention. Be astonished. Act, and doubt.” When he finished speaking, we put the authorship question right to him. For a split second, Ayers was nonplussed. Then an Abbie Hoffmanish, steal-this-book-sort-of-smile lit up his face. He gently took National Journal by the arm. “Here’s what I’m going to say. This is my quote. Be sure to write it down: ‘Yes, I wrote Dreams From My Father. I ghostwrote the whole thing. I met with the president three or four times, and then I wrote the entire book.’” He released National Journal’s arm, and beamed in Marxist triumph. “And now I would like the royalties.”
Indeed, this certainly sounds like a shtick that Ayers has decided to run with. If so, the man is both playing with fire and sounding more and more like he is rather desperate for attention, after his brief run-in with fame during the campaign has all but disappeared.
Clearly, perhaps Ayers hopes that someone like Glenn Beck or Sean Hannity will use this story as proof that Ayers wrote Obama’s memoir. Then he will hold a press conference saying how he was putting them on and they fell for it, and make them look like really stupid fools. Or, he could on the other hand really mean it—and is hoping that someone will ask him to produce his drafts and other proof of his work, and then he will again not only be in the limelight, but will help bring down a presidency in which he is disappointed that it has not been radical enough.
Who knows? Bill Ayers is, as Paul Berman said in his blog the very first day of The Daily Beast, perhaps “the stupidest man in America.” He is also one very big liar, as proved by Fugitive Days, a book filled with evasions, omissions and major distortions of the truth. As Leary put it, he is a liar. And those who trust a liar, do so at their own peril.
Conservatives will believe anything that reinforces their worldview no matter how preposterous the claim. And no matter that there is no evidence to support the claim.
Ayers isn’t desperate for attention. He simply had a little fun making fools out out of the conservative movement.
A few months ago Ayers told Hannity and Colmes that Obama was making a colassal mistake sending more troops to Afghanistan. Considering many Progressives dismay with Obama, may we not be seeing Ayers sending a bit of a warning to Obama? That yes I know plenty about your early years and if you keep failing Progressives, I’m going to start talking? To others than Anne Leary (a friend of mine by the way and fellow Chicago blogger). The more I think of thise exchange with Anne, I really wonder if this isn’t the first taste, as LBJ said, of Liberals eating their friends. LBJ knew too… Obama may soon find out.
Excellent advice to Beck, etc: if they go for this story, make SURE it is balanced with a skeptical take, ie, Ayers is historically a liar.
And the burden of proving guilt is on… The suspect?
Plenty of material for speculation, but no hard evidence. This kind of case is eventually resolved, but it takes time.
It is not only Ayers that is a liar, but all true Marxists. Such people eschew the concept of truth to such an extent that even when a real Marxist says, “I am a liar,” you do not know whether to believe him or not. Funny, but deadly true!
I could care less if Bill Ayers wrote the book or not. We all know Obama is a liar and it would be par for the course if he lied about that too. Bill Ayers is also a very dishonest individual and I wouldn’t put it past him to try a “haha fooled you dub neo-cons” fake out by falsely claiming authorship of the book.
The other thing is that “socialists” greed is almost always their undoing, they vilify capitalists as being greedy but in fact are merely projecting their own avarice and desire to dominate upon their natural enemy. It would be ironic if it was his real desire for fame and the “back royalties” that lead him to stab his disciple in the back.
When does a liar start telling the truth consistently?
When he’s dead. Ayers is much alive, and I don’t advocate changing it, that is God’s decision, when to issue the recall notice.
In the meantime, this is the right way to look at his statements.
Ayers seems to be using the lie that is not a lie to throw everyone off the scent. If further pressed, he’ll start adding, “I killed JFK, too”, to further the obfuscation. Disinformation is a typical KGB tool. Who you gonna believe? Ayers, Obama or your own lying eyes?
we should water board Ayers 130 times and see if his story changes or devates slightly. it might not prove anything but wth.
Id like to send the scumtrash Ayers a gift-an updated CD of the song “the night Chicago died”. It would coincide with the year 1998-the year the city named this COMMUNIST PUNK “man of the year”. Well ,I can tell you one thing-this twerp is no man.
Bumping into him at Reagan National Airport, Ayers told her: “I wrote Dreams From My Father.”
That’s nothing. I once ran into Dick Nixon and he told me that he was on the Grassy Knoll.
I still cannot appreciate this so called link between this guy ayers and being part of the presidents administration. I can see why some people would not like this guy. A rich, well educated kid, know it all but never did it…wheeenie that acted so recklessly all those years ago. I admit, I dont really like his type either. But I just dont see the connection. Thanks for the article though.
Ruebacca–such credit you give Ayers! If he were waterboarded about 3 times he’d start telling all he knew. Just to be sure, I’m all in favor of the extra 127…
Dreams has been critically hailed as a masterpiece of autobiographical writing, and is a pillar of the myth of Obama. Imagine how Ayers must feel (assuming he is the real author), that he gets none of the credit and adulation for his masterpiece, and Obama gets all the attention. Might he be motivated to tease the mystery enough that he becomes a part of the legend, without a definitive claim or proof?
And maybe he was dissed by Obama, if he travelled to Washington and didn’t get a social call while he was in town, so he decides to feed the rumor out of spite.
Do liars always lie?
Great analysis as always Ron. I think it’s a put on myself. It’s hard to imagine that anyone else would obsess upon Barack Obama in the manner of his autobiography unless he were…Barack Obama.
I’m positive that if Ayers wrote it he has proof that he wrote it. As icky as it is, Beck or Hannity ought to simply offer to pay him to prove it.
Believe Ayers?
If that guy told me stone was hard, I’d try out a rock as a pillow.
Who did write Dreams From My Father? The odds are that Barack Obama is not the author. As matter of fact, I suspect that there no more than a five percent chance that he wrote the entire book himself. There is simply no evidence of Obama previously writing anything of similar quality. It is comparable to watching a rookie NBA player exhibiting phenomenal skills—and yet he never played before in public. This simply does not happen. One usually has to do a lot of writing over the years to acquire Obama’s alleged skill. It does not happen overnight.
Ed Morrissey of Hot Air says this current controversy is of little consequence. I totally disagree. We take for granted that a Ted Kennedy or a Sarah Palin had significant help writing their memoirs. But who in hell was Barack Obama when Dreams From My Father was released? Moreover, much of the Obama phenomenon revolves around the claim that he is a superb writer. This book has been widely used to buttress his very slim resume. That makes all the difference in the world.
“Dreams” is also full of lies and exaggerations. For instance, the grandiose tale of Obama’s first job out of collage bears no resemblance at all to the accounts of his co-workers. A very idiosyncratic story about the East River running both directions is also in both men’s books, as well as abundant nautical metaphors that are consistent with Ayers’s experience but not Obama’s. An analysis of sentence structure also reveals strong resemblances. The most convincing argument to me is the graceful literary quality of “Dreams”, praised by reviewers, when the few other published writings of Obama are barely readable, cliched, and often ungrammatical. I suggest everyone read Cashill and make up your own minds.
What does Obama & Ayers have in common? They are both liars. Two peas in a pod.
I believe Obama is too lazy & shallow to write anything, including his two books; the man cannot put a coherent sentence together unless he reads it from a teleprompter. Ayers may have written both, but substantial proof needs to be gained first–not just Ayers’ word.
“I believe Obama is too lazy & shallow to write anything”
Amen. I cannot imagine Barack Obama sitting hour after hour putting his thoughts down on paper. He simply lacks the self-discipline. One gets the distinct impression that it very difficult to keep Obama focused on anything for more than a half hour. I am going to make a prediction: we are eventually going to hear how Obama’s people were virtually incapable of getting him to finish his work. He basically wants to shoot his mouth for a little bit—and then get praised for it the rest of the day. Obama is the exact opposite of Ted Kennedy who was something of a workaholic.
“Ted Kennedy who was something of a workaholic” You mean Ted Kennedy was something of an Alcoholic don’t you? Just because he stayed up late at night to sneak bills through the Senate or rewrite legislation after it was voted on doesn’t mean he worked hard, it means he was a cheating scoundrel. Just think of Ted; too hammered to go home, too full of hell and alcohol to stand still, oh what mischief he must gotten into, we may never know the whole story.
Bill Ayers and Obama have two things in common; 1. They are liars. 2. They are radicals that hate America and God.
This question of whether Obama wrote Dreams from my Father is one that fascinates me. Various people come forward insisting that he couldn’t have, because he’d shown no writing skill prior to the book. This is one of those weird assertions that is hard and easy, at the same time, to refute. Writing skill can be taught; it can also develop on its own, and it might have been there all along. Someone who never wrote anything before suddenly writing a classic? How about T.E. Lawrence (Seven Pillars of Wisdom), Harper Lee (To Kill a Mockingbird) or even William Shakespeare? Has anyone seen anything that Barack Obama tried to write before his autobiography came out? From what I understand, his dissertations from college and so forth have remained sealed. What else would he have written, that we could look at it and say it’s not the same? And even if there were something, it would probably be written under different circumstances. If you sit down to try and write a book, it’s going to be composed a bit differently from a report you wrote for you company last quarter.
As I said originally, if someone had told me that an obscure English professor no one had ever heard of had ghostwritten Obama’s book, for a few hundred dollars, *that* I might have believed. The addition of Bill Ayers makes the whole thing very very suspect. Ayers is an egotistical, arrogant, self-absorbed twit. Twenty or so years ago, he was (in his own mind I’m sure) a prominent American philosopher and educator, showing the teaching establishment of the country how to educate the children in the proper fashion, so that they grow up progressive and compassionate. He’s got a trust fund and a mansion in Hyde Park. Why would he waste his time ghostwriting a memoir for a completely unknown political novice with a funny name? The idea is silly, and anyone who takes it seriously is letting the provocative aspects of the rumor blind them to the realities of the situation.
As for him saying he wrote the book now, like I said, he’s self-centered. He’s also probably a bit peeved that Obama didn’t appoint him Secretary of Education or something. A combination of a desperate need for attention and some jealousy…why not create some controversy?
DavidN, your examples are somewhat less convincing than you know.
T. E. Lawrence had the assistance of the great George Bernard Shaw. The preface to Seven Pillars of Wisdom even says, “thanks to Mr. and Mrs. Bernard Shaw for countless suggestions of great value and diversity: and for all the present semicolons.”
To Kill a Mockingbird wasn’t Harper Lee’s first experience at writing. She wrote columns, stories, and satire for her college newspaper.
As for The Bard Of Avon, not all of his works survive, including the infamous Love’s Labour’s Won. Thus it is impossible to pinpoint exactly when he began writing; it’s quite possible that he wrote many plays before he became successful and that, because they were of low quality, they were not preserved.
It’s a very common misconception that authors become “overnight sensations,” in fact, it’s quite rare. For example, Dr. Seuss (Theodor Seuss Geisel) is best known for Cat In The Hat, but he had been a prolific writer before Cat was published. In fact, Cat was Seuss’ 15th book, coming after such (now) well-known works as Horton Hears A Who and How The Grinch Stole Christmas.
Sorry to burst your bubble, DavidN, but the evidence is very strongly indicative that Obama at the very least had help writing Dreams From My Father.
I have long feared that this particular President would be susceptable to blackmail. The dichotomy between his public persona and his actually life history as revealed by his prior work, associates, ideas is just so unfathomably huge . . . And many of those prior associates are not particularly nice people. In fact, perhaps THE defining characteristic of Obama’s original crowd is a firm belief that that they have been wronged, that somebody owes them and that “somebody” needs to pay up in order to make up for “it.” I would not be surprised if there were several schemes burbling about, waiting for an opportune moment.
The differences between Obama’s two books is too great in style and phraseology to have been written by the same person, If Ayers had written “Dreams” and it was so widely and wildly acclaimed, and so profitable, why would he not have been chosen to write the second – or declined to do so? Possibly because they were aware that it would be far more difcult to conceal his connection with the second publication, and by that time OB had a professional writer on his staff.
Cahill’s postulation is highly plausible, but virtually impossible to verify. Maybe both “Dreams” and Ayer’s book were written by the same talented ghost writer. Even the publisher might not be able to prove who actually wrote it, if it went through an agent. Could the agent have been David Axelrod, who with his background could certainly have served that role?
Secure in the knowledge that there are only three or four living people who could prove that he ghost-wrote “Dreams”, and that they would NEVER do so, Ayers is simply taunting the suckers on the Right, laughing is head off as they fuss and flounder.
That’s the most fun a dedicated Communist who has hyped his protoge into the Presidency can have.
I do think DavidN makes a good point that concentrating on Ayers is classic conspiratorial self-delusion. Ayers is as DavidN notes ” an egotistical, arrogant, self-absorbed twit.” He’s driven to oppertunistically exploit any speculations.
I agree w/22. David Thomson as well. Without this book was Obama the rising star given a Keynote slot at the Dem Convention in ’04? Without this book they aren’t even a couple on the Hyde Park radar – given Michell’s former modest income.
Moreso this ongoing inquiry will focus investigative types to do what should have been done deeply in the primary and general election cycle – that is give Americans an alternative to the narrative already served up as to who Obama really is and who he’s been beholden too to accomplish his impropable rise to ultimate power.
Chicago is a facinating place these days and Obama brought a lot of it along with him to Washington. I know plenty about Rhom Rod but I dont know much about Valeri Jarrett or the Sec of Ed. I know next to nothing about Obama’s time spent in the legislature – the bulk of his political life.
Yes, it’s suspicious that Ayers would ever get involved with such a relative unknown like Obama back when Dreams was just a rough draft. But it’s equally suspicious that Obama has decided to keep his academic records locked away.
Just as it’s curious that here are two married lawyers – just humble folks with two young kids when Obama made his improbable grab for a US Senate seat – neither of whom had ever practiced hardly any law – and really – made much money.
Without this book there is no Obama in the Senate and later in the White house. That makes its authorship important to those who adore him and those, like myself, who don’t. Those of us who find his politics abhorant, and a threat to the kind of american exceptionalism that he, his wife, and his allies, have always taken exception with.
There’s a huge mismatch between the personality of the writer of the book and Obama, it seems to me. The greater mystery in all this is how people disregarded his lack of experience and achievement, his radical political beliefs, and his concealment of what most Harvard Law Review editors would readily supply to the world — the fruits of his labors during his education. Something is very fishy with that man. Conspiracy theories are all over the map.
He is just so cold, so spiritually barren, that he makes my skin crawl. Something is wrong, but I don’t know what. Maybe none of us ever will.
Perhaps Ayers was helping a friend by writing a book for Barack to give little Skippy some spending cheese.
Maybe Billy Boy doesn’t like that his ‘friend’ has made him go the way of the Rev. Wright bus and hasn’t been being a good DohBama by following all of his mentoring.
Truth is stranger than…’fiction’?
Boy, this would be “A Million Little Pieces” hella bad for dOprah’$ book club.
Andersen did provide sources for his story. He did not make it up and he did not make up the quotes in his 6 page account. Nor did he rely solely on Cashill. Cashill interviewed him and explained that he had two sources for the story. He did not footnote the account but he does list all his on the record sources in his book. I explain why his account stops short of saying that Ayers actually wrote the book in my blog at http://02ce1ab.netsolhost.com/KingHarvest/?p=1314
Conservative Wanderer:
Frankly, I disagree with you. Not every writer who acknowledges another in his forward actually had that book written by them. I’m convinced that Lawrence wrote most of Seven Pillars himself. It’s rather famous that he worked on the thing very hard for several years; he even lost a first draft, and had to start over from scratch. Writing articles and columns for a school newspaper isn’t the same thing as constructing a novel; and theorists for years have tried to convince one another that Shakespeare was actually a front for someone else, because he couldn’t have written the plays, given his poor education, background, and so forth.
One way or another, you didn’t address the central point of that part of my argument: there’s nothing to compare Dreams from my Father *with*. Ulysses S. Grant went almost all of his life without writing anything beyond orders to subordinates and reports to superiors. He famously told people he’d only ever *read* one book, after West Point. In the twilight of his life he wrote his autobiography, and it’s considered a classic. No, there wasn’t a ghostwriter, though he did have some assistance. Fact is, it *does* happen, and there’s absolutely *no proof* that it didn’t happen here.
Even more central to my point though is this: WHY WOULD AYERS BOTHER TO WRITE THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY FOR AN OBSCURE ILLINOIS POLITICIAN WITH A FUNNY NAME? Please don’t tell me that Ayers knew Obama would become President; nobody else could have predicted it back then, and the idea that Ayers could is ridiculous. He doesn’t need the money; he’s a trust-fund baby rolling in cash. He’s one of these guys who never tires of talking about himself, or telling others what he thinks. The idea that he would do something like this for a neighbor, and then remain anonymous all this time afterwards, is silly. In fact, come to think of it, if he *had* ghostwritten the book, why not put his name on the cover as ghostwriter? Politicians often do this, and no one among Ayers and his friends thinks him objectionable. *We* think he’s a terrorist, but remember, Obama thinks he’s the funny old guy who wanders his neighborhood, and in the circles Ayers runs in, membership in the Weathermen is a badge of honor, not something you have to hide. Why would they bother to conceal his participation?
So I’m back to square one. I think Ayers is ticked because there’s been a short period here where no one was paying attention to him. I suspect when his name came up and everyone on the right went off on him, he probably took the attitude that “if those people don’t like you, you’re doing something right”. Remember, in his mind he represents the people, and he thinks he’s doing the best he can for them. Never mind he spent much of his youth trying to destroy the country’s Democracy and replace it with himself as dictator: he thinks this is the best for the country. With that sort of super-narcissistic personality, it stands to reason he’s just trying to get attention. I would suggest that he’s probably pretty flattered by the rumor itself; trust me, he knew about it the day it was first posted on the web. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out he ego-searches himself twice a day.
Poor Citizen:
“I dont really like his type either. But I just dont see the connection”
Drink more kool-aid.
Even truth can be run as a hustle.
He said ‘Yes, I met the president three or four times and then wrote the entire book’. If you can’t deduce from that that he is mocking the suggestion, you need an IQ boost…
Thank you, DavidN. You proved my point for me.
To suggest that Dreams From My Father is truly Obama’s first work is in itself contrary to the evidence of authors in general.
You accuse me of ignoring your point, but you use only one of your own earlier examples, ignoring two of your own, and you also ignored three of mine, since I added an example. And your “refutation” of T. E. Lawrence falls rather flat… remember, he thanked Bernard Shaw for the “countless suggestions of great value and diversity.” That phrasing in itself indicates that Bernard Shaw was intimately involved in at least the editing, if not the actual writing.
The nearly constant experience of those of us who have been involved in literature for any length of time–and I am both an avid reader and aspiring writer–is that the book that catapults someone into the spotlight is almost never their first work. Dreams flies in the face of that, and therefore we need a lot more evidence to accept that Obama wrote it 100% on his own.
I can show you many more examples. Just for one, the very popular science fiction author Isaac Asimov is best known for his robot novels, with I, Robot even being made into a movie, but his first short story work Cosmic Corkscrew was actually rejected… and, again, I, Robot wasn’t his first published work.
So, your spin is failing miserably. Again, as you yourself have pointed out, we have absolutely no previous writings of Obama to compare Dreams to, so we must therefore logically conclude that it is his first work, and as a first work, it is so far outside the norm for first books that extraordinary evidence is needed to establish that he didn’t have help.
I agree. This terrorist and traitor should be ignored unless there is some legal means of putting him into the criminal justice system where he belongs.
That President Obama is an associate and friend of this man has always been shameful and undermines his credibility. Its tragic that so many in our country has been dumbed down too much to care.
It could be Ayers trying to put on conservatives. It could also be an attempt at blackmail. That the second is just as plausible as the first shows how much danger our mainstream media is putting the country into by refusing to vet Democratic politicians. Whatever you believe about Obama’s connection to Ayers, there was clearly more to their relationship than Ayers being a “guy in the neighborhood.” If the media had investigated this instead of trying to cover it up, then those connections would have been exposed, and Obama would have had to acknowledge them. He probably would have won the election anyway, and the threat of future blackmail would be removed.
The heck with Bill Ayers. It is foolish to focus on him. He is, at best, a secondary issue. The main thing is that Barack Obama almost certainly did not write Dreams From My Father without substantial help. This alone tarnishes his image. He would never have become president of the United States if so many Americans had not been convinced of his alleged superb writing skills. That’s it in a nutshell.
As on all matters that do not occur before our eyes, and some that do, this question is unknowable from a metaphysical standpoint even with explicit admissions as the Ayers case demonstrates. However such scruples have not kept any Leftlings from claiming that Sarah Palin’s book is no more than a cribbed scribbling from Green Eggs and Ham before it ever appears so I am on board to endeavor after the truth. Boobs that dismiss it as implausible prima facia are unfamiliar with the record as far as political books go. McCain joked openly about the authorship of A Charge to Keep. W, BuSr and Bob Dole too have books on their resumes. Would our betters hesitate to pursue this sort of inquiry of them? Gingrich is a well known author in his own right yet still you will find, among the indictments of Newt from the naif marxists includes the charge of faux authorship. Like the Birthers, the Ghosties have the issue of evenhandedness on their side.
On the notion that Ayers’ declaration, if true, would be so stunning a blow to his side that he therefore would never do it, I object. Ayers, among friend and foe, is known as a pathological liar. This is just the sort of “in-your-face” play that he would relish. Again, this is why even confessions are not completely dispositive but let us make another Obama/Ayers comparison and see what shakes out, shall we?
Did anyone catch WhiteCoatGate live? Ordinarily I wouldn’t be watching CNN but I had jury duty and it was piped in. Didn’t this event’s main interest point turn out to be the absurdist set-dressing employed by the Obies? The WH had a stock of lab coats for distribution to the assembled throng to make the point that “doctors” were foresquare behind O-care. Whatever you think of the virtue of the policy or the genius of the stagecraft you have to admit that the point of the venture is diminished if the lab coat bit is focused upon, no? Well, while it was not reported anywhere I saw I can attest that in his opening throat-clearing set up, Barack declared… “Don’t you all look spiffy in your nice, white coats?” Now, that doesn’t make real sense, does it? Coming from this master of communications we know as Barack. Unless it is a neurotic tick, the sort of thing a cop will note in an interrogation. As Shakespeare put it, me thinks BO doth protest too much.
And Ayers, as Ron mentions, is known to pursue his own loopy agenda regardless of the costs.
Where is any objective evidence that Obama is brilliant? His handlers are brilliant in a perverse way, but Obama? If Ayers somehow isn’t the ghost-writer in this instance, someone like him is.
The charge is ridiculous so Ayers is playing it as an obvious gag.
No need to go over it with a fine tooth comb
Forsooth!
Sometimes the best lies are truth.
Ha! Sometimes the worst truths are lies!
Teller of falsehoods weaving tall tales,
it is you I doeth truly despise!
1. one could perform forensic analysis from obama books to ayers books – looking for usage patterns. as a control, use hillary’s or mccain’s books.
2. after performing this analysis – bring up the subject and get BO and BA to commit publicly
3. then if their public statement are at odds with the forensic analysis, wham bam rham emanuel
I’m really enjoying the PJM readership reenacting the reasoning of Vizzini (the Sicilian) as he determines which cup is poisoned in the Princess Bride. Keep it up guys. I mean, what if Obama lied about Ayers lying about Obama lying about Ayers? Have we considered that angle yet?
Conservative Wanderer: I think we’re now arguing at cross-purposes. I’m saying Obama didn’t have a ghostwriter, and you’re attacking the idea that he didn’t have *any* assistance in writing the book at all. Of course Obama had help; all published authors do, more or less. That’s why there’s an acknowledgments section somewhere in most books these days: authors now are more interested in tipping the hat to the people who help them write their books. The idea that Obama would have written the book “100%” by himself is silly…if he actually had, he would be truly unique. On the other hand, a ghostwriter typically interviews the subject of the autobiography/memoir, and then writes the book himself, with only more or less varying support from the celebrity whose name is on the cover of the book.
As for Lawrence, so what if George Bernard Shaw helped edit the book? As I’ve just shown, it’s a far cry from that to ghostwriting the whole thing. Note also that Lawrence thanked Shaw and his *wife*. You think she helped ghostwrite the book too?
Writing is a talent, like playing musical instruments or painting pictures. Some people start out with a minor amount of talent, and can be taught so that their talent improves. Some have no talent, and you can’t teach them no matter what you do. And some have considerable talent, without any training or teaching. It’s frustrating to those of us who’ve tried to write, but some of those given this sort of talent have no desire to use what they have. That means they go into another field (law, for instance, or community organizing) and let their writing talent lie fallow. It doesn’t make Obama a better person, or anything else, it just means he wrote his own book.
As for the “evidence” that Obama had his book ghostwritten, I’ve read the book, and didn’t see any. I didn’t find the book that well-constructed, and frankly if someone like Ayers *had* written it I would have expected different things to be emphasized. Obama never recounts any incidents of racial discrimination or strife in his book; Colin Powell, for instance, included every instance of racial discrimination in his life. I’m sure they stood out from the surrounding events, and I’m sure they were insulting, but they also felt isolated and atypical. Obama, by contrast, either didn’t have anything to recount, or didn’t feel he needed to repeat the stories. I find the former possibility unlikely; the latter is intriguing. Maybe, when he wrote the book, he *was* trying to be post-racial. Anyone think a seasoned old rabble-rouser like Ayers would do that?
And you’ve avoided my central point, which is that not only does this story allege that Obama didn’t write the book, but that it was Ayers who actually did the writing. Ghostwriting is work: you essentially write the book. These days, ghostwriters typically get acknowledged on the front cover of their books, and they actually use the plaudits later (“New York Times bestselling author —”) to further their own careers, typically writing something about or by themselves. Anonymous ghostwriters these days tend to write for people who are really prominent (there was a stir when Hillary Clinton published “It Takes a Village” because the supposed ghostwriter didn’t even appear in the acknowledgments) and even then it’s somewhat dicey. In America, no one likes the guy who takes credit for someone else’s work, even if the other person agrees to give the credit away.
So why would Ayers do this for Obama, and only now come forward? I think the evidence is pretty plain that this isn’t what happened. As I said, if the allegation was that someone we never heard of ghostwrote the book, that would be a bit more believable, though I still don’t believe there’s any “proof” in Dreams From My Father. To return to one of my points that you’ve ignored, both U.S. Grant and William T. Sherman wrote autobiographies that are considered classics, after two lifetimes of soldiering, neither man having published anything before. Sherman was something of an intellectual, but Grant was famously not: however, he had a clarity of vision and a talent for expressing himself. And no, he didn’t have a ghostwriter.
I don’t know who really wrote Obama’s books, but if you’ve ever picked up Ayers works you’ll notice that they’re vastly inferior in prose style and structure. Ayers writing is far more simplistic, whiney and profane, and he’s trying to milk this non-issue for all it’s worth.
Sadly, Cashill, PhD and all, is clearly a nut. A quick persual of his website (www.cashill.com) discloses he believes TWA Flight 800 was shot down and that the Clintons had Ron Brown murdered (he wrote an entire book on the subject).
DavidN: Using Grant and Sherman as examples of “naive first-time writers” is highly tendentious. The correspondence of both, military and personal, are extensive, largely preserved, and strongly resemble their memoirs. Furthermore, said correspondence was obviously of extreme value in preparing the skills which went into both memoirs. Even so, it’s almost as common to accuse Grant’s memoirs of being ghosted by his editor, Mark Twain, as it is to claim that Shakespeare’s plays were really written by the Earl of Oxford. For some reason, people are more willing to give Sherman the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps because his memoirs’ aren’t nearly as clear, well-organized, and of such high literary value.
I used to think Cashill was piling sand on a molehill, but Ayer’s current fan-dance has at least convinced me that there *could* be something there. it’s gone from one in ten to about three in ten, I figure.
Played by Ayers. I love it. He talks and you jump. Next week he’s taking credit for the MLK speech. Get ready.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-10-07/bill-ayers-punks-conservative-blogger/
You’ve all lost your minds! (he he he)
DavidN, you have little comprehension of how talent actually operates.
Take Tiger Woods, for example. No one doubts that he has a huge amount of talent. But did he win the Masters the first time he picked up a golf club? Absolutely not. He had to hone his skills through relentless practice in order to bring his talent to it’s ultimate expression.
Or take Ronan Tynan (the Irish tenor). Do you think he sang as well as he does today the first time he tried? I really doubt it. Again, lots and lots of practice are needed.
For writers, that practice takes the form of early books, short stories, articles in the same genre, stuff like that. Even the acknowledged masters like Asimov have had early flops.
Show me Obama’s early flops. Show me his practice. Show me where he honed his talent. Show me where he learned the nuts and bolts of the writer’s craft.
Absent that, there is not enough evidence to prove that he wrote Dreams to convince me. If you want to believe, that’s your right.
Two things:
1. Mark Twain didn’t ghostwrite Grant’s autobiography. Occasionally there’s talk one of his aides (if memory serves it’s Oliver Babcock) wrote some of the book, but most historians believe Grant wrote the whole thing. Nobody accused Sherman of having his ghostwritten, not because the book isn’t as good (it was an enormous bestseller at the time), but because the explosion from Sherman would have been heard in Timbuktoo.
2. Conservative Wanderer: You’ve completely misconstrued what I originally wrote, constructed a straw man, and then proceeded to defeat the proposal you’re trying to ascribe to me. Many writers do start out of little or no talent, and some of them never get past that point. Some learn, at varying rates. Some (regardless of your belief on this point) have the talent to write a book when they start. Obama did write things (such as dissertations in college) that might indicate whether he had any talent before; such things haven’t been made public yet, if they ever will be. Regardless, I repeat one of my points, which no one seems to want to acknowledge: writing something for a newspaper or magazine isn’t the same as constructing a book. There are differences, in length, content, and style. Just because an “acknowledged master” has flops doesn’t mean the next one will. Occasionally you’ll have someone who writes one good book, and can never repeat the procedure (Harper Lee is a good example). The point is that some people are talented enough to write an autobiography on their own. Many people aren’t, but some are.
As for my understanding of how talent develops, well…I never was the second coming of Hemingway or anything, but I’m far enough along to not call myself an “aspiring” writer any more. I don’t write stuff that gets published, for money, these days, but I have in the past. One thing I’ve learned is that talent doesn’t develop in any particular set direction, from one person to another. Some pick things up more quickly than others; it’s just a fact.
And, at the risk of repeating myself, I return to my original question. Assuming Obama didn’t write his own book, why would Ayers have bothered to ghost it, and then remain anonymous? The idea’s silly.
If Bill Ayers wrote the book, it makes one wonder just how beholden Obama is to Ayers, especially since Ayers hasn’t received credit or royalties.
I never said Ayers himself ghosted Dreams, DavidN. Talk about misconstruing an argument! In fact, if you look back earlier in this very thread, I indicated with a favorite turn of phrase of mine that I have very little trust for Ayers.
However, this is not a case of “A” (Ayers) or “B” (Barack). There are many other possibilities. I’ll just show you two, just to make the point.
C: Ayers’ books were themselves ghostwritten, and then the same ghostwriter wrote Dreams. This would account for the noted similarities, and also explain why Ayers is claiming to have written Dreams… such an “admission,” however false, would serve to insulate him to some degree (though not completely) from the charge that he himself didn’t write the books bearing his name.
D: Ayers wrote his own books, but Dreams was ghostwritten, collaboratively written, or partially or completely edited by someone who was a great fan of Ayers. Given Obama’s proximity to Ayers, it’s hardly unlikely that Obama would know fans of Ayers’ book. Again, this would explain the noted similarities, though the explanation is somewhat weaker.
As for picking things up quickly, I never argued against that. But again, you’re proving my point for me… you said yourself you’ve had things that weren’t published. So, I challenge you again: show me what Obama has written that wasn’t published. Show me how he developed his writing skill (and note, I’ve never denied that Dreams is a well-written book) through practice. No matter how great someone’s talent is, nor how quickly it develops, you’ve admitted–again, proving my point–that it does need to be developed… all I am saying is “show me the evidence of that development in author Barack Obama.” You haven’t, you keep spinning and trying to move the goalposts.
If you think you’re fooling anyone except the already-committed Obama-fans here, you’ve got another think coming.
58 conservativewanderer
Pick a fantasy and stick with it. The truth is clearly a bit too heavy for you to lift. Stay in the conservative world of “IF ‘n’ MAYBE”
There is a good argument to made on behalf of the ten thousand hour theory. Its adherents claim that it takes about this much time to truly acquire a particular talent. Where in heaven’s name is the evidence that Barack Obama invested anywhere near this much time and effort to become an accomplished writer? We live in an era where it is ridiculously easy to find a sample of somebody’s writings. And yet, for the most part, we can only find Obama’s two books. This is very suspicious to say the least.
One thing is pretty sure about Obama’s two books. Different authors wrote each one. The stylistic evidence is too sharply at variance for any other conclusion. Some accomplished writers can vary their styles to the degree those two books vary, but there is no evidence anywhere that Obama could have done that. There’s just the claim and his name as author.
I agree with David Thomson above. Obama lacks the work ethic to produce a book on his own. As someone who has written books, I can attest to the self-discipline required to complete even one book.
When does someone cite the four or five sources to the president, that support some Ayers’ involvement, and ask him for the facts? Or they could ask Michelle. I’ll be sitting here waiting.
He would never have become president of the United States if so many Americans had not been convinced of his alleged superb writing skills.
I don’t believe that we elected Obama because of his superb writing skills. We elected Obama over McCain because the economy was in the toilet, a Republican was President and McCain was a Republican. I’m not sure why Obama won the primary, but I think it was because Clinton moved towards the center too soon. I’m sure it wasn’t Obama’s writing skills. The whole leg thrill infatuation probably would have occurred whether or not the dreamy book existed.
Yours,
Tom
“I don’t believe that we elected Obama because of his superb writing skills.”
Barack Obama would not have even gotten to first base on the way to the White House if his two books were perceived as co-authored. He initially impressed a number of people because of his alleged superb prose. The 2004 Democratic Party convention was no more than second base. Try to imagine the success of those works if they were instead written by “Barack Obama with Joe Blow” or “Barack Obama with Jane Doe.”
An excellent point, texexpatriate. When I pick up a book by one of my favorite authors, I can tell within a few pages which author it is, even if I’ve never read that particular book before.
There are many true readers who can spot the personality behind the words written on a page. It’s not rocket science. You either can not do this and thus probavly should not be involving yourself in this story. Unless you just want to play mind games with yourself. “Can a liar tell the truth? Blah, blah, blah. Or you are a coward. Or just too lazy to prove what you “know”. You open one paragraph here with this howler: “Cleary, perhaps…” That about sums it up. Ayers is laughing at you fuddy duddy conservatives. You guys are really lame.
“Michelle told me to.”
End of story.
61. texexpatriate,
I’d be suspicious if ‘O’ wrote a successful children’s book for that matter. lol
66. Banned by Huffpo:
“Michelle told me to.”
End of story.
TRU-DAT
Conservative Wanderer: First, I am sorry if I misunderstood you as being part of the Ayers wrote Obama’s book crowd. After all, that’s what the article is *about*, that particular theory. OK, to your points…
The idea that someone else ghostwrote both Ayers and Obama’s books. OK, now we’re wandering into really weird territory here. As I said originally, finding a ghostwrite, especially a good one, to write a book for you is hard, and when they’re asked to do it *anonymously*, it costs you a bit because they can’t cite their work elsewhere. Ayers could obviously afford such a thing, but again, how would Obama have done it, and why bother? A lot of different politicians (notably McCain and Colin Powell, for instance) had them publicly, and no one said anything negative (can’t even write his own book, etc.). Since no one knew who Obama was when Dreams From My Father was written, why would he bother to conceal the fact the book was ghostwritten?
By the way, I don’t know about you, but I didn’t consider Dreams *that* good of a book. It’s not bad, occasionally effective, and sometimes rather clear-eyed. The portrait of the author’s father is especially objective, with him coming off as a self-important drunken lout. However, as an account of someone’s life, it’s rather incomplete and at times maddeningly vague. The book spends a great deal of time discussing that one trip that Obama took to Kenya when he was a young man (It’s something like a quarter of the book, and took place over the course of two weeks; in other parts of the book Obama skips over whole years with only a sentence or two.). Regardless, no one has shown me convincing evidence (in my view anyway) that he didn’t or couldn’t have written his book.
As for myself, yes, I’ve had a few things rejected over the years. Much more was published, though. Actually, as far as I can remember there was only one rejection. Oh, and I forgot to mention…I edited a hobby magazine for 3 years. Very small, tiny circulation, you never heard of it. But I reworked and edited what must have been a hundred articles all told. I do at least sort of know what I’m talking about. Some of my writers started out talented, others had to be “helped”, and I had to let one go because he couldn’t cut it. Sorry to disappoint you, but there’s no set formula for success as a writer; some people start out brilliant, others try hard and never get there. Hell, you ever heard of John Kennedy O’Toole? You think “Confederacy of Dunces” was ghostwritten? Perhaps he had a closet full of rejected classics he wrote before?
Oh, and Texexpatriate? The two books you’re citing were written almost 20 years apart. When the first one was written, Obama was newly married and just back from Harvard. When the second one was released, he was a national politician writing a campaign book to sell himself as a candidate. That second book may have had a ghostwriter (it wouldn’t surprise me at all) and almost certainly was massaged by political operatives to make sure all of the policy positions in it were attractive to American voters in demographic groups that Obama’s team wanted to attract. Of course that second book didn’t read like the first: a different man wrote it, assuming Obama wrote even the first draft, and quite probably there were other hands involved. But Dreams is probably still his work, pretty much alone. Just because none of us admires him, doesn’t mean he can’t have written a book. The two things aren’t exactly exclusive.
Oh, and as for his work ethic? Again, it all depends on how easily writing comes to you. Some of us find it rather easy…others take longer. Scott Turow takes about three-four years to write a book…Robert B. Parker takes about three months. Two different writers, both very skillful, but very successful (and Turow was a success from the start, if you don’t count the memoir he had rejected while in his 20s). Talent doesn’t always work the same way, and different writers work differently. Acting like Obama doesn’t conform to some set of rules, and therefor can’t be the author of Dreams, is silly.
As for the Michelle told me to comment, if *that’s* not proof Ayers is playing with everyone, I don’t know what is. You think he even knew who she was back when the book was written?
DavidN: I never said I believed that both Ayers’ books and Dreams were both ghostwritten by the same person. In fact, I have not said that I subscribe to any theory yet, and won’t, because I don’t subscribe to any except that Obama was not and is not skilled enough to write Dreams completely on his own. However, part of logic is coming up with possible theories and then discarding those that don’t fit the evidence; therefore I postulated several theories of varying plausibility both to begin to weed them out and also to point out–as I said to you at the time–that there were more than “A” (Ayers) and “B” (Barack) possibilities.
As for Confederacy of Dunces it would help your case if you got the author’s name right… it’s John Kennedy Toole, not O’Toole, according to Amazon (I rather trust them on things like that); and the Amazon rank for that book is a whopping #10,436. Not exactly a barnstormer or best-seller. For contrast, Dreams is #372, quite the radical (no pun intended) difference in popularity. If you really wanna make the point you’re trying to make, try finding an author within, say, the Amazon top 500 who made it with his first book.
72. Now and Then:
“I love it when you talk like a black lady.”
The term is, “Black WOMAN”, you racist, sexist prude.
nyuck
73. Delia:
You’re no woman, child.
Conservative Wanderer: OK, so I got Toole’s name wrong. My memory isn’t always what it used to be. Regardless, the book’s considered a literary classic. Amazon’s sales ranking is pretty irrelevant, especially when comparing it to Dreams. Huck Finn ranks way behind Obama too; but that doesn’t mean Twain’s not classic.
As for your other point, that you’re only theorizing: well alright, but you’ve started out with a conclusion, namely that Obama can’t have written Dreams wholly or mostly on his own. Your evidence for this is completely internal, namely that you don’t think him capable of writing that well. Your proof that he can’t write that well is again negative, mainly being built around the argument that *no one* can write that well without working at it or learning how. I merely beg to differ with the assertion that no one can write that well without being taught, or trying and failing first. There are, as I said before, some people for whom things come easily. It’s not fair, and it’s definitely not predictable, but it does happen.
Just as an exercise, I’d like to pose a question to you. I’d like for you to name *one* non-celebrity who had a book anonymously ghostwritten. I’m betting if you can name one, there will be compelling reasons for the anonymity of the ghostwriter, and I can’t see compelling reasons here. Regardless, I can’t think of any off the top of my head in the first place.
Oh, and Toole’s book was published (I believe) more than 30 years ago. Of course it’s not going to compete head-to-head with something written by the current president.
Like all communists, Ayers lies even when the truth would serve him better. People like JHarp still deny that Alger Hiss was a communist and still think that Ayers is “a guy I knew from the neighborhood.”
They also lie about what they really want: tyranny for everyone (including them, but they are too stupid to know this.)
Lie first, lie second, lie always. Lenin and Goebbels understood this. So does Ayers, so does Obama, so does JHarp.
Child’s play, DavidN: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/jun/16/fiction.celebrity
Emphasis mine.
As for Mr. Twain, because of the time differential, it’s just as hard to come up with a complete bibliography for him as it is for Mr. Shakespeare. We have no evidence that his first-published works are indeed his first-written works.
Also, you’ve stepped nicely into my trap, and it’s time to spring it. The people you’re comparing Mr. Obama to are professional writers, not professional politicians! So, since you’ve challenged me (and I answered it), here’s one more challenge that you’ll probably ignore just like you have all my previous challenges. Find me another professional politician who’s written a book on his or her own while working as a politician (no fair picking someone who’s out of politics now, as they have plenty of time to hone their writing skills) who’s hit the Amazon top 500 or the New York Times bestseller list with their first non-ghostwritten book. Dreams is copyright 2004, which means it was written during the time Mr. Obama was in the Illinois Senate, so don’t bother whining about the conditions.
Conservative Wanderer:
Dreams is copyright 2004, which means it was written during the time Mr. Obama was in the Illinois Senate, so don’t bother whining about the conditions.
I think we’ve come across one of your misconceptions about what I am saying. The copy of Dreams you have may have 2004 on its copyright page; read it more closely. The book was actually written in the early 90s, and published in (if memory serves correctly) 1995. It was commissioned by the publisher (yes they sought him out) after somebody at the publisher saw a newspaper article recounting that Obama was the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review. It was written long before his political career, and *reissued* when he made that speech at the DNC in 2004. He wrote a new forward for the book at that time (largely apologizing to his dead mother for essentially ignoring her in the book, instead concentrating on the father who abandoned him), and that forward is why the book carries the 2004 publication date.
This is my point. Obama wasn’t someone who a publisher would hire a ghostwriter for, and it’s hard to imagine him bothering to hire a ghostwriter who would write a book for him anonymously. It’s preposterous to imagine Bill Ayers filling the role in *that* context. Later, perhaps, once Obama was famous and prominent, sure. But when he was a new lawyer, moving to Chicago and finding a wife and career?
As for your other example, I’m unfamiliar with the author in question. She must be some sort of celebrity, though, otherwise there would be no reason to conceal the involvement of someone else. This too is my point; Obama didn’t have a political reputation to protect when the book was written, so why would he or anyone else bother to do this.
As for your obsession with Amazon’s bestseller list, it’s only a snapshot of what’s currently selling. Since I’ve proven Obama wasn’t involved in politics when it was written, it sort of renders the whole point moot anyway, doesn’t it?
“Obama wasn’t someone who a publisher would hire a ghostwriter”
Nothing could be further from the truth. The publisher actively pursued Barack Obama and even gave him reportedly an advance of over $80,000. This is virtually unheard of regarding a first time non-fiction writer. Obama’s status as the first man of color who became the editor of the Harvard Law Review made all the difference. It opened the doors to him. He was considered a very bankable commodity. Investing some more money for a ghost writer would be very reasonable considering the circumstances.
Very well, Mr. N, I accept the correction.
However, you’ve still refused to show any evidence at all that Obama himself has the skills to produce such a well-received book. I’ve given you numerous chances, and you’ve still not produced a single shred of evidence. In point of fact, you’ve continually spun and tried to move the goalposts.
Therefore, absent such evidence, I will continue to follow the evidence that we do have; that there is absolutely no record of Obama honing his writing skills enough to have written such a popular book.
You denigrate Amazon’s list, but it is a valid measurement of a book’s popularity; perhaps that in itself is why you denigrate it, because it serves as a source of concrete data that cannot be spun nor have the goalposts moved on. You’ll note that I also included the New York Times bestseller list in my latest challenge, yet you’re ignoring that.
In short, you’ve shown yourself to be woefully unfamiliar with the basics of logical debate and the rules of evidence. Therefore, until you come up with such evidence as I have requested, I will remain convinced that Obama did not write either of the books that bear his name. If you thought you could convince me different, you failed as miserably as Obama’s Teleprompter has in trying to get people to accept leftist-socialist policies.
Now go back to Daily KOS and claim that you “won” the debate.
80. David Thompson:
“Obama wasn’t someone who a publisher would hire a ghostwriter”
Nothing could be further from the truth. The publisher actively pursued Barack Obama and even gave him reportedly an advance of over $80,000. This is virtually unheard of regarding a first time non-fiction writer. Obama’s status as the first man of color who became the editor of the Harvard Law Review made all the difference. It opened the doors to him. He was considered a very bankable commodity. Investing some more money for a ghost writer would be very reasonable considering the circumstances.
Again, you’ve missed my point. Sure, publishers hire ghostwriters all the time for celebrities who write books, but those ghostwriters don’t just lie down and ghost-write the book anonymously for nothing. Dreams did *alright* when it was first published, but it wasn’t anything like a bestseller. A publisher’s budget wouldn’t cover an *anonymous* ghostwriter; it might cover one whose name would be on the cover, but Obama’s is the only one there. That means either he wrote the book himself, or the publisher for some reason sought him out, proposed the book to him, had someone else ghostwrite it, and (probably) took a bath when the book didn’t sell that well. That ghostwriter then remained anonymous from then til now, and no one at the publisher said anything either. You seeing where I’m going here? What you’re suggesting is turning into one of those silly conspiracy theories that involves everyone from the Illuminati to the Michigan militia. It’s much more likely he wrote his own book.
As for Conservative Wanderer flailing about aimlessly, insisting now that there’s no evidence Obama wrote his own book, because after all his name is on the cover, but that can’t actually mean anything, can it???? I’m supposed to somehow provide you with evidence that he *did* write the book, or wrote something else first, or whatever. You should look up Occam’s Razor before propounding these theories…the simplest solution to this question is the obvious one: he wrote the book himself, probably had Michelle read it over and edit portions, and then probably had an editor at the publisher who did the same thing. That’s how books are written: they get gone over by people other than the original writer.
Oh, and as for your silly accusations re my politics. I’m a Republican, don’t like the man’s politics at all, actually laughed out loud when I heard he’d won the Nobel Peace Prize. I don’t think I’ve ever been the the Daily Kos (HuffPo, a couple of times, but I had to leave due to nausea). What I’m trying to say here is that these silly, crackpot, half-baked conspiracy theories make us look stupider than the truthers and the October Surprise crowd. Even assuming the man rewrote The Grapes of Wrath, would that make him a suitable president? I submit not, and frankly I’m a bit annoyed that people can’t accept that he wrote a book, and is still an inferior president. To return to the main argument that Ron wrote originally, a week ago: Ayers is playing conservatives for fools, by “confirming” the rumor. As I said at the start of this debate, anyone who believes any of this is letting the provocative aspects of the rumor blind them to how silly it is.
“I’m supposed to somehow provide you with evidence that he *did* write the book, or wrote something else first, or whatever.”
I am indeed saying exactly that. Employing Occam’s Razor would definitely lead one to this conclusion. The odds are on my side of the argument. You are representing a position that is statistically unlikely. We rarely, if ever, find examples of someone writing a book of such quality—who also does not have numerous examples of other works of differing lengths.
A ghostwriter would almost certainly sign a confidentiality agreement. This individual could probably rewrite the entire book in roughly four weeks. Their fee might be in the range of $20,000—which is a good hunk of money in my little corner of the world. It is a reasonable added expense for a project already committed to minimally an $80,000 investment.
DavidN:
More spin, no evidence.
Both Mr. Thomson and I have given valid reasons for our skepticism, yet you’ve provided absolutely no proof for your stand. As for name on the cover, whose name do you think goes on every single ghostwritten book? It sure ain’t the ghostwriter, except in the rare (perhaps unheard of) case where the ghostwriter becomes publicly known and everyone agrees to put his/her name on the cover.
Give it up. You’re convincing no one here.
Mr. Thomsen: I like your style. If you’d like to write for a small blog, follow the link in my username and use the contact form to drop me a line.
Conservative Wanderer: I guess you’re probably right. I can’t confuse you with facts, you’re impervious to logic, and intolerant of opinions different from your own. Your “valid reason” that Obama can’t have written Dreams is that you don’t believe he wrote it, because it’s too good. That, by definition, isn’t a fact, it’s an opinion. It may be an informed one, more or less, but it’s still an opinion. You have no *evidence* that your assertion is true, beyond Ayers’ silly statements which are obviously intended to spoof conservatives gullible enough to believe this silliness. Yet you keep trying to shift the burden of proof over to me, or someone like me. Why should Obama, or anyone else for that matter, have to prove they wrote a book? Oh, and my wife keeps telling me to mention that Margaret Mitchell hadn’t written anything prior to Gone With the Wind. People do write good books, even classics, without anything in their background to indicate they would be capable of this.
One last thing: assume, for a minute, that my assertion is correct. Obama wrote his own book, and didn’t have a ghostwriter, and hadn’t written anything significant prior to it. How would he prove it? It’s very difficult to prove a negative assertion (that he didn’t have a ghostwriter). This is the functional equivalent, or close, of Rush Limbaugh recently being asked to prove he didn’t praise L.H.Oswald or say slavery built the south. Without an assertion of who the ghostwriter was, and when this occurred, it’s impossible to deny the allegation.
David Thomsen: I’ve never written a book. Perhaps you have, I don’t know. However I have been around the writing profession for a while, and paid some attention to it. First, if a ghostwriter were hired to “rewrite” a book, that technically wouldn’t be called ghostwriting. It would be “punching up” the book or editing it. Ghostwriters do the actual writing of the book, typically after interviewing the person who’s “writing” the memoir. Often they use tapes and various other methods to transcribe the subject’s thoughts, then compose them on paper or in a computer. Second, if you think publishers spend that kind of money on ghostwriting when they have no idea how well a book will do, well then maybe you’re right. I seriously doubt it though. Even back then, publishers were on the ropes economically, and teetering on the edge. I keep saying that at the time Obama wasn’t anyone of any consequence…why would they bother?
Oh, and I see you, CW, invited Thomsen to join you. I guess you do run one of those conservative echo chambers the left is always complaining about. Only have people who agree with you write for you? Hmmmm….
“I keep saying that at the time Obama wasn’t anyone of any consequence…why would they bother?”
But Obama was someone of consequence! He was the first Afro-American Harvard Law Review editor. This alone made him a good bet for a publisher. And there is something else we know: Obama was aggressively pursued and offered a lot of money. This is solidly established.
“First, if a ghostwriter were hired to “rewrite” a book, that technically wouldn’t be called ghostwriting. It would be “punching up” the book or editing it.”
Nonsense. It is called co-authorship! We are no longer discussing a mere editing process. This is especially true when the main author is being credited with the ability to write great prose. If we go along with your line of thinking—then John F. Kennedy was the author of Profiles in Courage and not Ted Sorenson.
More spin from Mr. N.
I’ve given my reasons in detail. That you can’t comprehend them just shows who is the one here who is impervious to logic.
I’ve given several examples of what would provide evidence (not proof, evidence–there is a difference) that Obama has the appropriate skills to write Dreams, and you’ve ignored each and every one. If and when you are able to provide the evidence I requested (and those posts are still above, you can go back and re-read them), then we can continue the discussion like reasonable adults.
As for my blog, I’ve put the URL in the appropriate field every time I have commented here. If you’re just now noticing it, well, that sort of proves that you’re really not that observant, doesn’t it?
And your comment about “conservative echo chambers” just confirms that you’re a dyed-in-the-wool Obamacrat.
All of the above evidence indicates to me that you’re not a reasonable debater, therefore, I’m going to cease wasting my time and bandwidth attempting to prove to you that 2+2=4. Someday the truth will come out and one of us will have egg on his face… look me up (if you can) and we’ll discuss it then.
And now, as I suggested above, you can go back to Daily KOS and claim you “won” the argument.
David Thomson: Yes, Sorenson wrote Kennedy’s book, and kept quiet even when Kennedy won a Pulitzer. If you think Kennedy, a wealthy politician and the son of a prominent Democrat, was anywhere near the equivalent in celebrity-status of the editor of the Harvard Law Review is a bit much. Can you name the current editor of the Harvard Law Review? Can you name anyone else who’s held the post? Maybe you can, but if so you’re pretty unusual. I’ll agree they sought him out (hell I’m the one who brought it up, originally) but I’ll also reiterate my skepticism that they would have bothered with an *anonymous* ghostwriter. As I’ve asked repeatedly, if they had someone ghost or rewrite the book, why not have that person’s name on the cover? Sorenson did it because he was devoted to the Kennedy cause and family…what would the supposed ghostwriter (assuming it’s not the annoying Ayers) get out of remaining quiet all this time?
As for you CW, I think you’re right. Your “evidence” is mostly intuitive, and implicit rather than explicit. And I’ve told you repeatedly that I’m a conservative: I just think attaching ourselves to silly conspiracy theories that have no meaning is counterproductive. Oh, and by the way, you’re wrong…there’s no way that it can be *proven* that Obama wrote his own book. As a result, either you’ll be proven right, or you won’t…but if the latter occurs, you’ll be able to say it hasn’t happened *yet*. And the “conservative echo chamber” was a reference to things we conservatives get accused of…doesn’t mean you can’t be guilty of it, while I’m still a conservative. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive.
“…was anywhere near the equivalent in celebrity-status of the editor of the Harvard Law Review is a bit much.”
We already know that the publisher’s representatives did think that Barack Obama’s editorship of the Harvard Law Review was a very big deal. This is established fact—and not mere opinion. Once again, they pursued Obama and gave him an advance reportedly of at least $80,000. Giving a ghostwriter perhaps $20-30,000 extra for roughly four to six weeks work is well within reason. The irony is that you are accusing me of conspiracy thinking when actually it is somewhat the norm within the publishing industry. This is done all the time. I am not advancing a far fetch theory, but offering the most logical scenario. The odds, statistically speaking, are that I am right. You are the one embracing a theory that is highly untenable.
“All Cretans are liars,” said Epimenides,the Cretan.
Ayers may be doing some sort of riff on this. Recall, however, that Ayers and Obama were contemporaries in the NYC orbit of Columbia and the Bank Street School when Obama was completing his BA and Ayers was getting his MA and then on to further degrees and teaching at Columbia. It strikes me as entirely reasonable that a lefty terrorist rock star like Weatherman Ayers and a committed Marxist like Obama would not have crossed paths.
My personal hunch is that Ayers, possibly with help of Cloward or Piven or Edward Said, decided to groom the “clean, well-spoken” black man to be a Movement front man. While both claim no prior association prior to the Annenberg challenge, when Ayers picks Obama to dole out the cash, I suspect their ties go back further. I don’t find it hard to believe that Ayers shaped “Dreams” from Obama’s notes and his own predilictions. Once it hit, it became important to maintain the fiction of Obama authorship as that was his only known accomplishment.
I’d like to see “Dreams” run through the same process that identified the author of “Primary Colors”, but I understand the owner of that software will not allow it.
Ayers, BTW, does have some conflicts with Secretary of Education Arne Duncan. He preferred one of his proteges for the post.
Ayers may be doing some sort of riff on this. Recall, however, that Ayers and Obama were contemporaries in the NYC orbit of Columbia and the Bank Street School when Obama was completing his BA and Ayers was getting his MA and then on to further degrees and teaching at Columbia. It strikes me as entirely reasonable that a lefty terrorist rock star like Weatherman Ayers and a committed Marxist like Obama would not have crossed paths.