A Reply to a Fearfully Concerned Muslim Friend
But the question remains — what about Islam? I know there are moderate Muslims, many of them wonderful people that I have met, like you and Dr. Zuhdi Jasser. I assume there are hundreds of thousands more. The man on the street in Muslim countries has been perfectly civil, sometimes even delightful, to me when I have met him in my travels.
But is there a moderate Islam? I have to confess that I have my doubts. Islam feels very different to me from other religions I have encountered — from Christianity (which, at least doctrinally, “renders unto Caesar what is Caesar’s”), Hinduism, Buddhism, Bahai, etc. None of them attacked me as a Jew or sought to put me in a position of dhimmitude. (I know this was wildly different in even the recent past, but I have been privileged in my lifetime.)
Islam appears to me less as a religion than as a system of world domination, dividing, as it does, the Dar al-Harb and the Dar al-Islam. And unlike that other, now relatively defunct, system of world domination, communism, it offers its adherents an afterlife. That makes Islam potentially more alluring and less destructible, ultimately more dangerous. Marx’s promised “withering away of the state” isn’t much compared to an eternity of virgins.
Islam also seems to me a system designed and built for the suppression of women. As I recall, Salim, we sat together at a banquet in Los Angeles a few years ago when Salman Rushdie was the keynote speaker. The author gave an extensive rundown of the history of Mohammed’s attack on the mother cults, which seemed to lead, almost inexorably, to the reprehensible misogynistic dictums of Sharia law we all know today.
What do we do with all this? Can Islam really be reformed? Unlike the Bible, a series of tales told by various parties, the Koran is supposedly the verbatim dictation of Allah to Mohammed and not subject to revision, self-contradictory though it may be.
Granted that the West is weak and corrupt, but how do you, how do we, fight this? I quite understand the reactions of Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sultan who simply washed their hands of the whole thing and became atheists. But few human beings have their courage, especially when, as recently reported by Pew, some 85% of Egyptians still believe an apostate from Islam must be killed. And this is Egypt, land of the most recent great reform.
Well, enough. I’ve already thrown too much in your lap for one letter. Some friend I am.
I promise you, though, I do mean well. I want to believe in moderate Islam. But from where I sit, I see it all going the other way, from Turkey to Yemen and back. If it only were just the West’s fault…
All the best,
Roger
Mr. Simon, your letter isn’t long enough by half to ask all the important questions about the nature and intent of Islam.
And I would have substituted the phrase ‘misogynistic subjugation’ for the word ‘suppression’ when characterizing Islam’s grotesque treatment of women.
Epiphanies are rare phenomena in one’s life. I recall being near a college campus a couple of years back on a blisteringly hot day observing a beautiful young woman walking to class. She wore a very slight and very bold red dress, carried herself in a most confident way – by all accounts the prototypical American girl. As she reached the street corner, she collided with two Muslim women in black birquas – completely covered head to toe.
You could just about feel the jackboot of oppression bearing down upon those Muslim women, covered head to toe in black on a seethingly hot summer’s day.
Just this past Monday, the 14th, I returned to east Dearborn(istan), Michigan. I grew up there. This tiny incident may be a peek into “my live as a blue-eyed, blond all-American girl growing up in a rapidly growing Muslim city.” I am now 44 years old.
At one in the afternoon I stepped out of a friends home to get into my car and leave. About 3 or 4 houses down, standing outside of a car that was parked at the curb, a group of four men of Arab descent were casually gathered. They saw me. Their eyes followed me as I got into my car. I would need to pass them (within feet) to get where I was headed. I made a pointed effort not to make eye contact (remember, I grew up there and just “know” what to expect). Just after I passed them I looked in my rear-view mirror. All four of them had their heads turned in my direction and were chuckling.
This anecdote is so typical, the kind of “veiled threat” that exists continually for females (clearly, I have had to deal with this kind of behavior from Arab men since I was adolescent) living among muslims.
It’s Michigan, I was wearing blue jeans, winter boots and a peacoat… not a cute red dress.
turfmann, I must disagree with your assertion that Roger’s letter isn’t long enough to ask the important questions about the nature and intent of Islam. Islam has proclaiming it’s intent since its beginnings, and its nature is on display every day wherever Islam is present. What Islam is, is abundantly clear.
As Roger says the Koran is the unalterable word of Allah, dictated verbatim to Mohamed and it calls for world domination. The question is why would any educated, civilized person cling to the delusion that Islam has anything to offer such an individual? Why would non-Muslims continue to cling to the delusion that a moderate Islam is going to miraculously emerge for OUR benefit?
Wanting to know more about Islam is like wanting more studies to tell us that smoking is bad for your health.
The time for hand wringing is long past. The time has come, not to discuss the nature of Islam, but to discuss ways of defeating Islam and saving western civilization.
To this reader it seems that both letters miss an important point: the economy. Economy and ethics are linked. In the case of the Soviet Union nobody would deny it: It was morally and economically bankrupt. This correlation, however, is not confined to totalitarian regimes. In democracies, too, the debasement of money goes hand in hand with the debasement of values. A sound economy with sound money would provide a much better base for sound ethics. The West loses its credibility because it is perceived as a bad debtor. The words of its leaders have lost purchasing power.
“How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water”
Isaiah 1:21-22
An interesting letter Mr. Simon. It would also be interesting to know of any response if possible. The only way out of the seemingly unstoppable world wide conflict between the Western World and Islam is to be sure both sides understand the stakes. This can only be accomplished through communications.
I am not so wet behind the ears that I think communication, or diplomacy at the state level, alone can stop anything but without a method that insures that both sides understand the stakes conflict is unavoidable and more costly.
This was an excellent letter by Mr. Simon, and understanding the stakes is certainly the key to self-preservation for Americans. Those stakes are elusive, because those who intend to destroy our form of government do not want us to understand them.
I take issue with one statement, however, that communism is a relatively defunct system of world domination. The main difference between communist domination and Muslim domination is the presence of an element of religion in the latter. Beyond that, the radical determination of Islam extremists is the factor that really sets them apart, but either one means the destruction of our Constitution and way of life. Communism has been waiting patiently on the sidelines for the opportune time to resume the destiny that Nikita Khrushchev promised decades ago, that of communism burying us from within.
You might ask where the danger of communism is today. Now it is in the form of a Trojan Horse at present occupying the White House. In her book titled “Set Up & Sold Out,” Holly Swanson vividly describes how Obama is the Enola Gay in the process of delivering the Bomb of destruction (my comparison). She describes the nine Communist Rules for Revolution that were discovered in 1919 in Germany. She also describes how Obama is now following the 5th Rule, which says, “Always preach ‘true democracy’ but seize power as fast and ruthlessly as possible.”
This is easy for Obama, as his apparently true allegiance to Islam says it is proper to lie in order to further the Muslim cause. He’s been doing that just about every time he speaks. This country is over 50% of the way into these rules already, and the progress is astounding. We just don’t understand the stakes. Read the book and see how far down the road we have been led by the Green Movement, from its use of the good parts of the environmental concerns we hear about to make us more receptive of the buzzwords that topple our form of government.
They have worked their way thru’ not only the communist plan, but the muslim brotherhood plan from the Holy Land Foundation trial.
Forget the Cold War (which we have not yet won, BTW), the paragigm for the War Against Islam is WW II in Europe. Japan was a nation governed by militarists, with colonial ambitions. We defeated their military and occupied their territory. We did not depose the Emperor or destroy their traditional religion. In Germany, the enemy was an ideology (National Socialism). We not only defeated and occupied Germany, but we launched a totalitarian program of de-Nazification. We understood that as long as Nazism continued to be tolerated, our victory would only be temporary. Just so in our war with Islam. Whatever military success we may have, the battle will not be over until the religion is stamped out. Mohammedans have been at war with the West, without ceasing, for 1,300 years. They’ve invaded Europe from the 8th Century until the 18th. Invasions have been on hold only since the West achieved absolute military superiority. As we see in Turkey, Mohammedanism isn’t easy to remove from power for any length of time. As long as the imams, mosques, Korans, and religious schools continue in existence, the danger will remain. We’ll either de-Islamize the world or accept never-ending war with faithful Mohammedans.
The Canadians, British, Russians and Americans defeated Germany and the Americans occupied maybe a third of Germany. The Russians did most of the heavy lifting.
Unlike, the Brits, Canadians and the Americans the Soviets began the war, literally, as allies with the Nazis.
Stalin was every bit as responsible for what happened as Hitler.
I agree with Bill.
Russia may have suffered the most, but its government had the most to atone for. This isn’t to denigrate the sacrifices of the Russian people, or their suffering. But it is worth pointing out that the pain the war brought upon them can be blamed on Stalin as much as Hitler.
“We did not depose the Emperor or destroy their traditional religion.”
Not completely, but we imposed great changes on the Emperor’s political and religious position.
The constitution dictated by Macarthur stripped the Emperor of all political authority. And the Emperor was required to disclaim his “divine” origin.
You’d think the destruction of divinity would make leftists very happy.
*shrug*
What you neglect to consider is that in WWII, both ideological foes were defeated only when their homelands were either occupied (germany) or under imminent threat of nuclear anihilation (Japan). The Mohammedan realm is fractured and geographically diverse and unless the West is inclinded to occupy all 40+ islamic countries, the threat will not abate.
I hope this excellent exchange between Simon and Mansur continues. Continued good work at PJM.
Islam is a sixth century religion designed to stay at that time.
Islam is simply Islam. The most “conservative” Muslim could be compared to just another card-caring Nazi in 1936. They would need to forsake Sura 9 and all the other Suras, not to even mention the hadiths, that must be followed and believed by Muslims. No choice. It IS the exact word of Allah. Period.
Being nice to Muslims, imho, is just supporting Islam. The only way a Muslim can be a functioning modern civilized human today is to be an Apostate Muslim and avoid the stones and the Sword at the neck.
I understand your meaning but you must have overlooked the term “Taqiyya” which roughly means deceive and lie and cheat as much as necessary to keep the dhimmis in the dark until we, the islamists, take over. Because of this dishonorable tactic Muslims can be “Normal” in Western society and still harbor the anger and hatred that the Koran teaches toward infidels. Therefore they can NEVER be trusted for any reason to uphold the mores or values that we hold dear. And especially in places of national security like the military or law enforcement agencies.
The Koran is a book written by a man who had seizures, a warlord, a man who admired the faith strength of Jews and Christians (“people of the Book”) and wanted something like that to motivate his soldiers so that he would never lose another battle. So he created such a faith from scratch, and for good measure he folded in “Ibrahim”, “Musa” and of course, Jesus himself, calling them prophets of Allah and part of the story. Of course, the original “story” ends with a warning to those who would add further facts to it, telling him the plagues of history would be added to HIS life if he does so. Yet Mohammed does exactly that, adds to and changes the story 600 years later, and then puts the same warning at the end of HIS book. Not original, not even veiled, just theft.
Another problem. In the Bible it says “every knee shall bow, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord”. That is not a threat, it is a description of a future in which nobody remains uninformed, a future in which there are no atheists because all has been made clear. Even those who do not wish to admit the reality of God will do so because they know the truth of the matter, so says the Bible. Even those who HATE Jesus will know and understand His lordship.
But in Islamic faith, Jesus is offered the number TWO spot behind Mohammed.
No Christian can find himself in anything but conflict with this religion. It seems to have been invented purposefully to lure in some weak Jews and Christians by reference to their saints and heroes and by a similarity to their faiths– but the strong in faith will recoil from it because it is clearly blasphemous. In short, Islam DIVIDES Jews and Christians from one another, the strong from the weak. This is war strategy, Sun Tzu style, from a warlord. It has political purpose and steals the best points of the parts of history Mohammed admired and had use for.
And as soon as his ‘faith’ was established, his armies grew in size and his conquering raids swept across much of the world. Henri Pirenne, a Belgian professor of the previous century, wrote “Mohamed and Charlemagne”, published after his death in the early 1930s, a historical analysis of the impact the west felt from the depredations of Islam beginning almost immediately from its founding.
Islam is aggressive, demands the conquering of the whole world, demands SUBMISSION (the meaning of “Islam”) from everyone, the second-class citizen status of non Muslims, the covering of women, the destruction of knowledge which blasphemes (a claim many have made about Christianity over the years, but there has never been a conflict between Christianity and science– not so with Islam!), and generally a collectivist approach to world government in which all people are the same, the “antheap” Reagan spoke of, instead of the classical American approach of responsible individuality and freedom and limited government.
Islam IS all the things that Christianity was CLAIMED to be by bitter leftists. It DOES tell you what to do and not do in all aspects of your personal life. It bans abortion and homosexuality and all the things the left has defended so vigorously. And yet the left works WITH Islam against enlightened traditional western interests.
Christianity is thus assaulted, along with Judaism, from the left AND from the right.
This will not end well.
…the destruction of knowledge which blasphemes (a claim many have made about Christianity over the years, but there has never been a conflict between Christianity and science– not so with Islam!)….
I’m afraid I really can’t let that pass unchallenged. If Christianity and science have never had a conflict, why is it that Galileo was forced to recant his observations that the Earth revolved around the Sun when it contradicted Church teachings that the Earth was the center of the Universe and that all of that universe revolved around it?
I should also point out that the Church objected strenously to the concept of vacuum – a space with nothing in it – because the official position of the church was that God was everywhere: it was not possible for there to be a vacuum because it would imply a place where God wasn’t.
I’m sure there were other conflicts between the Church and science but those two will suffice to make my point.
Henry Reardon – I think the conflict was between the Church, which had become essentially a corporate institution focused on political and economic power – and science as an action carried out, obviously, by an individual with the power of objective observation and individual reasoning capacity. That is, this was not a conflict between Christianity as an ideology and science, for I suggest that there is no such conflict.
Christianity is based, to my knowledge, around the actions and reasoning capacity of the individual. It was, indeed, the first ‘religious’ ideology that focused on the individual rather than on the collective. The church which sprung up around the Christian religion removed these powers of the individual and instead insisted on complete submission – to the church. The church was heavily involved in political and economic power – and moved away from the metaphysical. This lasted until, as I’m sure you know, the reformation …
That’s a good point to acknowledge Henry. Obviously Christianity and science once occupied a similar space as does Islam and empirical thought today. Using Galileo is appropriate since it is viewed as symbolizing a watershed moment in which science began to have its way and religion to become increasingly irrelevant when it came to the European thirst for knowledge which materially made the life of men more expansive.
It then begs the question if it is appropriate to style the essential conflict between the West and Islam as one which can be attributed to Islam never accepting, never allowing for that watershed moment to come to pass in favor of continued mysticism. Islam, instead of setting out on great voyages of discovery, was actually the moribund and entrenched catalyst for the West to do so. Today, the greatest energies of Islam seem to be directed towards regretting this non-participation and chastising and seeking to co-opt the work of the West through sheer overweening arrogance, immigration and baby factories.
If we borrow Ayn Rand’s objectivism for a moment, one can clearly see that in a larger sense, looking at Islam for what it could do, or would do or should do when it comes to technology or democracy serves no purpose. Islam is as we see it and there is obviously a cork in the bottle somewhere that can be, not unfairly I think, attributed to the nature of Islam itself. Despite the varied nature of Islam in its many countries, its great energy is misdirected when it comes to the topic of competing with the West as Islam still has Galileo firmly under house arrest and that is the common denominator.
Islam is bewilderingly in favor of keeping a medieval status quo but which is being challenged from within Islam by social technologies such as Facebook, movies and cable TV which slips past Galileo’s guards and subverts Islam. This as I see it is the great battle being waged in Egypt even as we speak on a philosophical level. On a more mundane level, the army is going to try and keep its hold on its lucrative franchises.
Money, empirical knowledge and religious conservatism will battle it out for supremacy in Egypt. It is a battle the West fought some centuries ago and one which was decided in favor of knowledge equaling money and power that trickled down to the least among us as opposed to a guild or class-like structure maintaining a strangle hold on sources of wealth. In this scenario, kings and princes (read dictators) vanished or were relegated to a wealthy and symbolic background noise and religion considered still important yet quaint.
People all over the middle east are constantly playing with their cell phones and it symbolizes an acknowledging and addictive charm and a genie out of the bottle that the mosque cannot compete with nor put back in the bottle. It is only a matter of time before those within Islam see that the one true thing that is holding them back is their all-pervasive religion itself.
Within the West itself, a new and unacknowledged faith-based religion called political correctness, steeped through and through with subjectivity and rendering reality itself irrelevant, is battling it out with plain common sense and allowing for the demographic subversion of the West by the Third World based on our turning our backs through colonialist guilt on the very things that brought the West to predominance. In the West, success now equals failure and immoralty and true failure is not objective but a matter of opinion and excuse-making and the U.S. Constitution a suicide pact frozen in time like the Koran while current events overtake it. Now, the Constitution is mostly at the service of the least productive, deserving and innovative among us and under its own form of house arrest.
James May, you wrote:
“Islam, instead of setting out on great voyages of discovery, was actually the moribund and entrenched catalyst for the West to do so. Today, the greatest energies of Islam seem to be directed towards regretting this non-participation and chastising and seeking to co-opt the work of the West through sheer overweening arrogance, immigration and baby factories.”
I’d disagree that Islam played any causal role in the rise of science in the West. I consider that the requirement for innovations in food production, resource discoveries and extraction, new sources of energy, medical and health care, nutrition etc..were all due to the fact that the old sustenance methods in Europe – small scale local agriculture – were not sufficient to maintain the increased populations. The famines, diseases and wars were all ‘attempts’ to deal with this problem, and finally, the ideology changed to enable individual freedom of thought, dissent, questions, a validation of objective observation….
Islam itself is, as you point out, frozen in its rejection of the right to and the capacity for, reason, in the human individual. Islam as a governing ideology – and after all, it seeks to be, not merely a private religion, but above all, a political and societal governance – has no capacity to promote any economic robustness, any adaptive legislation, any progress in any area of life. It’s as dried and barren as a desert.
As for the West, and its ‘leftist’ reaction of multiculturalism to immigration from these pre-industrial cultures – it is beginning to wake up from this postmodernist retreat from reality. All cultures are not equal; we have the right to differentiate and judge, based on what we are coming to accept as universal norms: the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness – and – the individual as the focus of the society because of his capacity for reason.
Societal cultures that reject these rights and the existence of the individual are unable to participate in the reality of a global world – which cannot operate in a freeze-dried manner, but must be constantly open, flexible, adaptive. Our global society is a ‘Complex Adaptive System’ – and
John Holland, one of the pioneers of CAS, defines: “A Complex Adaptive System (CAS) is a dynamic network of many agents (which may represent cells, species, individuals, firms, nations) acting in parallel, constantly acting and reacting to what the other agents are doing. The control of a CAS tends to be highly dispersed and decentralized. If there is to be any coherent behavior in the system, it has to arise from competition and cooperation among the agents themselves. The overall behavior of the system is the result of a huge number of decisions made every moment by many individual agents”.
As such, any part that is so frozen that it cannot participate in constructive interaction – will die out. Islam has been able to isolate itself from reform due to, in pre World War days, to its economic irrelevance and in post war days, to its reliance on the wealth from oil. This is no longer the case. The populations of these Islamic nations has exploded beyond the carrying capacity of a no-growth economy and Islam, as an ideology, is monumentally unable to release itself from stasis.
Oil has purchased time – in the form of war against the west, but that can’t be maintained – as the population back home can’t be sustained economically and, informationally – the population is now connected to the west, via the new electronic commmunication systems.
And finally, the West is fighting back, rejecting its own frozen mode of multiculturalism, and starting to ask questions of Islam and insisting that it justify its agenda…and stop being a parasite on the West.
I meant literal voyages of discovery such as Columbus whose catalyst was the blocking of trade routes east due to the Ottoman and the fall of Constantinople, not science.
Henry,
Good call, and I’ll echo the rest in pointing out the difference between Christianity and “the Church”. Over the centuries, many policies, positions and trenchant conflicts were initiated or indulged in by the Church which biblical Christianity did not call for. They have always been politicians, warlords and elitists.
But many better minds than mine have studied the actual, biblically supportable Christian positions on scientific matters and found no real conflict. In fact, the Big Bang theory and the Mosaic description of Creation are eerily similar. For decades following Hubble’s red shift discoveries, scientists refused to acknowledge a Big Bang on precisely the grounds that it too much agreed with the Biblical points of creation and they did not WISH for bible-thumpers to be RIGHT about anything important like that. Their silly inventions of “infinity without a first cause” don’t hold up to the examination of any sensible person.
They have since been compelled by the voluminous facts to stand down, and today few argue the idea that the entire universe sprang from a fixed point with no volume at a certain point in time, in fact the BEGINNING of time since time and space are both facets of the universe.
The biblical language was weakened by translation to English a few hundred years back. “Let there be light” is actually an imperative– “Light, BE!” is what it actually has God saying– and no scientist has been able to offer any “first cause” that is any more plausible than a supreme being outside all of nature giving commands to it. The Big Bang means that, beyond 16.7 billion years ago, there was simply nothing. Not even vacuum, because there was no space. NOTHING.
I read the words of despair of a scientist not long ago when fitting the pieces of the big bang together and I”ll paraphrase them here–
“it is as if we labored for centuries to scientifically climb this great mountain of explanation of everything, and when we finally pull ourselves over the last parapet onto the summit, we are greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for thousands of years.”
That is the dismay felt by modern irreligious scientists at the facts of the Big Bang. “It’s beginning to look like those morons were right.” Sigh.
Islam, on the other hand, takes its illogical, unscientific, arbitrary and angrily pronounced anti-scientific dictums boldly into the 21st century with no sign of having learned ANYTHING. The dark ages are coming back… at the hands of the same people who gave us the ORIGINAL dark ages about 1400 years ago.
Modern science reluctantly confirmed the ‘science’ of the bible. You’re kidding, right?
Dear Mr. May,
Many contend that the Genesis creation story can’t be true because it claims that everything happened in six days. This belief (6 days) arose from a literal translation from Armaic to Greek to English. Literal translations often lose a lot of meaning.
The early chapters of the Bible were preserved orally, finally transcribed around 900 B.C. This includes the Psalms. From Psalm 90: “A thousand years in your sight
are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.
At that time “thousand” was the largest named number. It was often used to denote any large number, much as we might say “gazillion” today. In this light we might read Genesis as being pretty damned close to our modern understanding.
Regards,
Roy
James, that’s not what I said. Modern science has settled on tested facts re: beginning of the universe that are now much closer to agreeing with the biblical idea of creation than they were say a hundred years ago. DNA is a Language, like software. Scientists ought to be able to create life with hot rocks and amino acids by now, but they can’t. Irreducible complexity is a fairly firm barrier against the idea that random molecular collisions can result in complex increases in information, like DNA code.
Science, as time passes, has found itself less opposed to God than it once was. Facts have led it that direction.
What does the Bible say about this Earth traveling in a straight line through warped space thing cuz the empiricist’s aren’t having much luck with gravity other than having to deal with it as an accomplished fact.
Henry,
Some/most/all of situations like Galileo’s were more about scientific reputations and egos with the Church in the role of Big Government and primary source of revenue. Galileo’s theories were received by his contemporary scientists in much the same way as global warming skeptics have been received by global warming supporters in recent years, and his contemporaries used their connections in the Church to smear him and defund him and maintain their own livelihoods, much like global warming supporters today have tried to suppress all debate. Galileo is a good example, because at some his punishment was house arrest–but he did all of his work in his house–the current Pope was a friend and supporter of Galileo, and was trying to condemn him publicly without interfering with his work.
The Church was arguably at fault to be in the situation where its actions affected secular activities, but I would not say that this a fault with Christianity per se.
The only thing about the whole Galileo thing is that he wasn’t persecuted for his scientific views, but rather was fully supported by the church to perform his research. He wasn’t the only scientist to purport that the center of the universe wasn’t the earth. But he was bucking the current *scientific* view of the solar system/universe. His wasn’t a common view, but it wasn’t outside the pale as far as scientific discussion was concerned. In fact the church supported the research of other scientists who also held these same views, and were conducting similar research to find proof for these views, all at the same time it was supposedly persecuting Galileo for his views. Nor did these other scientists cease their research or were bothered by the church in any way.
His persecution stems directly from his public mockery and attacks on the Pope. His (non-scientific) writings basically portrayed the pope as the village idiot. One did not say such things about the pope or kings or anyone of political power in those days. So it’s not suprising that they came down hard on him.
Galileo being persecuted for his science is a common historical myth. It is quoted by everyone, and trotted out regularily whenever people decide that religion is at odds with science, but is historically unsupported.
Its much like how people use the term “Dark Ages”. Historically, no such thing, it’s commonly used, but inaccurate
Science does not have room for miracles. The kindest thing it can do is to call such a thing an undemonstrated or indemonstrable hypothesis. And if that hypothesis is of, e.g., an immortal, non-material soul, then science will tell you that if the thing can’t be touched, tasted, smelled and thus probed, weighed and measured, then the thing simply does not exist. It does not, and cannot, shrug its shoulders and mumble about life’s sweet mysteries. Science is, in its most fundamental principles, absolutely antithetical to all religion. Any given scientist may, of course, choose to hold multiple incompatible thoughts in his head—at best that would illustrate a truce between principles that have agreed to disagree. All very cordial and all, but scarcely true friendship.
Science does not have room for miracles.
Science does not have room for dogma either hence when a dogma is adopted the adopter stops being a practitioner of science.
For instance, the axiom that truth exists is a dogma hence it cannot be discovered by science yet it is a far more important principle for organizing our lives and societies than any observation of science. The practice of science, in fact, is pretty much pointless without this axiom.
Science is a good and useful thing but one must keep in mind that all it basically is, is the attempt to find consistencies in nature via observations and experimentation.
BTW, this means that those who insist that the Theory of Evolution (all life came from a single ancestor via undirected causes) is an established fact have adopted a dogma hence have stopped practicing science
A religious general ban on books about heliocentrism lasting over a hundred years after Galileo doesn’t sound like a myth wherein the church actually supported such research without dogmatic restraint.
The church initially supported Galileo as long as he toed the church line – when he didn’t, he had the Roman Inquisition ankle bracelet for the last 10 years of his life.
To suggest there was no struggle between the church and science at that time verges on the miraculous.
revisionist history – not true
The Gray Lensman called: he wants his name back so unclog your jets.
The present-day disputes between fundamentalist believers and scientists over evolution, the age of the universe, the interpretation of geology, etc., means the conflict still exists. At the moment, there is no real “The Church” with the power to force the scientists to recant. Fortunately, neither do scientists have the power to force religious people to recant. But there will always be a conflict between those who think you can find ultimate reality between the pages of a book and those who think you have to look for it Out There, with your own senses.
The persecution of Galileo was a political matter, not religious.
When he exposed his theory he had a strong support and protection from Cardinal Bellarmino (a political powerhouse of the time in Rome).
But for political reason, given there was not the prove that the Earth rotated around itself, he was allowed to teach his theory as a theory mathematically sound but not proved and not as a fact. The proof of the rotation of the Earth come from the Foucault Pendulum experiment a century after.
Galileo was a hard head like only people from Florence can be, and didn’t follow the instructions given. So he embarrassed Cardinal Bellarmino that get angry and moved to punish him. Being in good terms with suspected heretics didn’t help as Bellarmino stopped protecting him.
Then he went under trial from the Church Inquisition and instead to threat it like a trial, he treated him like a diatribe with some other philosopher.
And the first time he was able to get of the hook with a slap in the wrist and no more. But it did it again and the politics of the time get involved. The Pope needed to show he was hard against heretics (to keep the Spain quiet), he was angry with Galileo to making fun of him, and more.
You can read about it in the italian page of the Wikipedia (the english page is not so deep).
@Henry Reardon:”why is it that Galileo was forced to recant his observations that the Earth revolved around the Sun”
He wasn’t. Henry, you’ll have to do more research to find a better point of contention. Galileo got into trouble for broadcasting his ideas without checking with the other academics first. He was out of order and placed in house arrest (at home) until his patron could review his work. There was a lot of science going on in the church’s facilities and Galileo was causing a lot of disruption by publishing unreviewed material.
Well said, Dave. I’m always amazed by the number of so-called “Christians” who believe that there are multiple paths to God – including both Jesus and Allah – when the two are most clearly mutually exclusive.
The concept of the Trinity (God in three persons) is well accepted as a Christian tenent. Why, then, the insistince that Jesus may only be known as the Jewish carpenter of 2000 years ago? Why not a recognition thet the “Buddha nature” spoken of in Mahayana Buddhism as a possible manifestation of the Holy Spirit and perhaps the Buddha also as God’s only Son? The mysteries of God are eternal, His works miraculous. If God may be in three persons, why must His Son be bound by the physical understandings of humans?
I often find myself agreeing with C. S. Lewis, in that I know many non-Christians who, by their actions and lives, know Jesus much better than some who line the pews every Sunday.
you said “The concept of the Trinity (God in three persons) is well accepted as a Christian tenet. Why, then, the insistence that Jesus may only be known as the Jewish carpenter of 2000 years ago? Why not a recognition thet the “Buddha nature” spoken of in Mahayana Buddhism as a possible manifestation of the Holy Spirit and perhaps the Buddha also as God’s only Son? The mysteries of God are eternal, His works miraculous. If God may be in three persons, why must His Son be bound by the physical understandings of humans?
I often find myself agreeing with C. S. Lewis, in that I know many non-Christians who, by their actions and lives, know Jesus much better than some who line the pews every Sunday.”
**********************
If you agreed with C. S. Lewis, you wouldn’t have written the first paragraph.
Besides, Lewis said God, not Jesus, when he said what you are citing. It is silly to say someone who is a buddhist “knows” Jesus (unless Jesus is the son of Buddha, which Lewis would reject). And Lewis said “is closer to God”, not “knows God”, since the “closeness” of which he speaks is a spiritual and emotional closeness, not the closeness of knowledge which, as a premise, this person clearly does not have.
Buddhism teaches much that is good. It does NOT teach, though, what Christianity does, that God is a personality with a purpose, that He is carrying out His plan and purpose and that our lives here on earth are a part of that.
One can absorb good from ungodly things, as a part of the learning we must all receive to complete our journeys here. And there are many people who have much good in them even if they do not know God, and many who DO know God who still have much bad in them. People are people. But remaining a Buddhist is not going to put you were C. S. Lewis wanted you to be. There are not “many paths to God”. There is only the one. “I am the way…” etc. If you are a Christian, you MUST believe this, and if you do not, you are not fully a Christian. it is one of the essentials. I didn’t write it and I find myself often wishing it were not true, but I would not be a Christian if I did not believe it.
And the Muslims say the exact same thing. Only their way isn’t the same way.
Conflict. Inevitable. No resolution. Even if the entire western world swore off the Trinity (which the Muslims deride as pagan worship of multiple Gods, showing they do not understand it or care about it), even if the western world swore off “I am the way”, got on its knees begging to be allowed to get along with Islam, Islam would say no. Either be us, or be beaten by us.
I remember when Bush said “they’re either with us or against us”, how nuts the leftist west went over that. So narrow minded, so medieval.
But the Islam they seem to be embracing now, as “other” to traditional Judeo CHristianity, says exactly that; you are either with Allah or against him.
no resolution possible, only surrender. The west will happily let Islam prosper, but it will not let the west do so.
Just an observation….I sometimes think that the only reason the left thinks it likes islam is because it sees the ideology as exotic and “cool,” kind of like being a Rasta. Mohammed — Marley — what’s the dif? Whatever, as long as it’s new (to them) and rad and not what those Republicans believe in.
Not quite from scratch. He started with the local moon god religion as his base, and tinted it with Christian and Jewish words (not doctrines).
Those who maintain that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same god do so out of ignorance.
An incisive comment. I would like to add that Christianity has not always taken the form we see today. If we use modern eyes to compare Islam and Christianity in say, the 10th century, it is not clear which we would say was more ‘modern.’ But Christianity transformed itself through thinkers such as Aquinas, and the competition of ideas afforded by the Reformation and the Enlightenment. Islam never had an Enlightenment, and as suggested by dave in dallas, is forbidden to consider one.
This will indeed not end well.
Makes you wonder what the heck is going through the tortured mind of left wing idiots like this one:
[Barry] Frank, in a wide-ranging interview with the Herald, went on to say that “as a Jew,” Israeli treatment of Arabs around some of the West Bank settlements “makes me ashamed that there would be Jews that would engage in that kind of victimization of a minority.
This from a “man” who would in all likelihood be hung for his homosexuality by the minority he professes to defend…
Hope I’m wrong about this, but I’m expecting any reply to be in the form of a True Scotsman fallacy. Misgyny? Oh, that’s not TRUE Islam. World domination, dhimmitude? That’s not TRUE Islam, either. You have to understand the complexities. The average Muslim doesn’t think this way. It’s all about how you interpret the Koran. Etc., etc.
“Moderate” Muslims aren’t the only religious people to use this ploy. It pops up whenever some religious nut does something…nutty. His co-believers immediately take one giant step to the rear, leaving him isolated. And leaving the rest of us to ask, “How many times can you re-define ‘True Christian’ or ‘True Muslim’ or ‘True Hindu?’”
Of course, there’s nothing unique about religions using this fallacy. It’s just human nature.
Some Marxists use that fallacy too. When you confront them with the mass murders committed by Communists, some will say that Stalin, Mao, etc. weren’t True Marxists and that the next batch of Communists will do things better. (Mind you, if you ask them to describe what specific things they will do differently, they always go silent, suggesting that they really don’t plan to do anything any differently at all.)
In fairness, it should also be noted that the same fallacy is sometimes used by other political ideologies too. I seem to recall an Ayn Rand tract called Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal in which she argued that all the things criticized in capitalism are flaws that exist because capitalism isn’t being applied purely but has been tainted by other things, like statism.
Of course the hidden flaw is that Ayn, like Marx, assumed that any human philosophy can be applied purely and independently of human nature.
Bingo
Good point. You can imagine something in your mind that is the absolute Truth that never changes, but you immediately run afoul of Reality. And Reality is nothing BUT change. Πάντα ῥεῖ – panta rhei, everything flows. Suddha-dhamma pavattanti – Bare processes roll on. You can’t capture it between the pages of a book. Accumulated wisdom, rules for a healthy society, ideas that make you feel better about stuff – sure. But eternal, unwavering, unvarying, inarguable, absolute Truth – nope, never happen.
And that’s why it’s always so easy for people – who dreamed up all this stuff in the first place – to be all bendy-twisty when defining “true Islam” or “true Christianity” or “true Marxism” or a “true American.” Because “true” is only what people decide it is at given moment. If there’s a “true True” out there somewhere, only God knows what it is – and he ain’t talkin’.
I enjoyed reading Salim’s letter, Roger, and your reasoned yet sensitive reply. However, there are the sad history and realistic prediction Dave summarizes above in #4. Many signs point to a massive war with unprecedented casualties. The suicidal nature of the enemy probably requires unconditional surrender and that many, many need to be killed (see Bushido).
There are no odds on the side of atheism. Likewise none for betting on the wrong religion. God would have reached out to man a long time ago. One of the most ancient religions must be the right one. There are only two. Hindu and Hebrew. All the little cults and johnny-come-latelys cannot be in the running.
Jesus did not bring us a new religion. He defined and broadened an existing religion. Mohammed cobbled together a twisted cult by violating the basic tenets of Judaism and Christianity while discounting the claims of Moses and Jesus of Nazareth. Contradictory to say the least.
The rational response to Moses is to agree with him. The rational response to Mohammed is to fight him. In every possible manner.
Actually, Jesus didn’t “expand” an existing religion, he fulfilled one. He claimed to be – and we Christians believe that He is – the Messiah promised to Adam, Abraham, Isiah, David, and throughout the Old Testament. In essence, Christianity is the Jewish faith, completed. Thus, dating the faith Abraham back to Ur and the beginnings of civilization itself, and even before that (scholars generally accept that the book of Job probably predates even Abraham), Judeo/Christianity certainly gives Hinduism a run for its money.
I don’t have the exact quote handy, but C.S. Lewis commented that when all is said and done there are only two religions: Hinduism and Christianity – everything else is a variation on one of these (Islam being the greatest of the Judeo/Christian heresies).
Of course you are correct. I was gearing my comment to the irreligious. It is best not to offer a starving man a four course banquet.
Great quote Paul! Hinduism is the highest form of paganism and Christianity the highest form of religion of the one true creator God. There are only those two choices… Or the heretical versions of them. Islam is such a garish cutnpaste from old and new testament as to draw laughs– if it weren’t so abominable.
Roger,
I hope you will allow this post as it digresses a bit from the subject at hand.
Since you brought up the subject of your Jewish identity, your thoughts, feelings and experiences as a Jew , I would like to discuss them with you. We have never met and I have no personal insight regarding you to offer. However your statements speak for many I believe and it is to that common denominator of Jewish experience I address my remarks.
For all its ancientness and the tremendous amount of interest in Jews and Judaism there is little true understanding of either in mass culture. Yet it is from that mass culture that many Jews and non-Jews learn what little they know.
You speak of your Bar Mitvzvah. For many that is understood as a moment when a boy becomes a man. Yet obviously that cannot be. A 13 year old boy is far from true manhood. So the ceremony itself seems built on a fallacy.
To the general public a ” black belt ” in karate means one is an expert. Yet anyone who has studied the martial arts knows that what it really means is t. That one is now considered a serious student. That now the true learning experience begins.
The Bar Mitzvah is much the same. What it really means is that now the boy with, hopefully, a strong foundation for learning having been built, can accept responsibility for his own development. Not to marry, work and build a family but to learn and grow into a man who can do all of those things successfully and become a positive influence in the world as well.
There is a saying, ” fear of G-d is the beginning of Wisdom “. That saying has many meanings and is quite deep. One of those meanings is that through the continuation of study, motivated by strong desire for improvement, wisdom occurs. The lack of study on the other hand produces a devaluation of wisdom itself. That is a terrible burden and produces a devaluation of Judaism itself.
Now before some of the PJM readers jump all over me for my ” racist ” views that Judaism and Jews are worth saving and that Jewish children are worth having, for Jews that is, I would ask them this-
Are you in favor of saving the whales? Do you think endangered species , pick which you prefer, are worth the effort?
The Jews are the worlds most endangered species. We are hunted all over the world. Our numbers have been decimated. Our children murdered.Our country besieged. For more than a thousand years.
Roger, when I was a kid I used to like a TV show called ” The Beverly Hillbillies “. I can still sing the theme song. A show whose premise was a poor mountain man who lived his life sitting on an ocean of oil and hadn’t realized it. He was rich beyond compare but for most of his life never knew it. Then one day… you know the rest I’m sure.
The American Jewish community sits on the greatest and most profound intellectual and spiritual treasure in the history of the world. Yet like the old mountain man they just don’t know it’s there/
Thanks Roger. I have read every word you have written here on PJM. I enjoy your work and the entire enterprise make an outstanding contribution to an audience that I’m sure is growing all the time. In the USA and in Israel I can state categorically that the influence and audience of PJM is on the rise. In your work and words I sense a profound Jewishness. Kol HaKavod.
MBY
Menachem,
I have commented often how I admire your posts. I’ve found insight and wisdom in what you write, and consider you a friend of sorts, though we’ve never met and I know nothing of you besides what you provide on PJM.
Jews are blessing me in their struggle. Jews love life. But the message from many mosques I often hear is “we love death as much as they love life.” I believe it.
My support for you goes beyond simply the rich history, enemy or ally, the shared belief in freedom to choose and the pursuit of happiness, the historical significance, even beyond the fact as Christians we are told to bless the Jews. It’s very simple, and it is least partially selfish.
Because without Israel and the Jews, without the return of its rightful people, without Jerusalem, without the irrational hatred of all of Judaism from the world, I would struggle in my own faith. Because of Israel, my faith is no longer just simple faith because of what I was taught – it’s grounded in fulfilled fact. Thank you my friend, as you will understand my premise. May God hold you in the palm of His hand.
Tex, If the only result of my time on PJM was to make your acquaintance it will have been time well spent.
Maimonides, and believe me I am no Maimonides, said the following-
” After all I am a man who- if the subject urges him, if the road is too narrow for him, and if he knows no other way to teach a proven truth except by appealing to one chosen man, even if failing to appeal to ten thousand fools- prefers imparting the truth to this one man. ”
I have no doubt that it was a person such as yourself he had in mind.
I am honored you consider me a friend.
Menachem
That’s a good one. To add a few points, we will no longer be hunted when we broadcast that message clearly while having and developing the means to enforce it. That translates to a state, the IDF, Mossad, etc.
As far as non-Jews here slamming you for caring first about Jews, so let that be. There is a lot of jealousy, even among some who count themselves on our side, and mystification at the reconstruction of a Jewish national identity. Here, you see it and feel it every day. The moment someone travels to the Golah, even a Sabra, it becomes blurred and a natural confusion sets in. You become aware that you are in ‘their’ world – even in the US and other Western countries. A great deal of Jewish-American thought goes into explaining America as an exception, and there is something to it. But from a Jewish feeling/identity POV, once we are out of the land we are suspended like an astronaut out on a walk from his space station. And it becomes our problem. It doesn’t really concern non-Jews.
Regarding Roger’s letter, it’s a nice one. The reality is that he is too liberal and polite to say the truth about what Islam presents. People like Salim Mansur, noble though they may be, don’t represent Islam at all. They are shunned and targeted. They have no influence. People like Dr. Jasser (sp?) are in the same boat. They have crossed over to the infidel’s side, and won’t be forgiven.
Reminding Gentiles of their obligation to us is a nice thing, also somewhat idealistic. Should millions of American Jews decide to de-anchor themselves from the American dream and come here (an unrealistic idea, no doubt) the ramifications would be immense.
Gee whiz, I forgot all about my obligation to Jewish folks. I’ll probably go to hell for eternity. Guess I’ll be eating Spam and Kraft macaroni ‘n’ cheese for every meal too. Might be good if I wash it down with some red hot lava.
The only ” obligation to Jewish folks ” you have is to remember to treat us with the same modicum of respect you show others. Of course, with your head shoved up the backside of Egyptians demonstrating for ” freedom “, busy celebrating their new democratic state by gang raping female journalists, I can see you have lost perspective.
Save your snarky comments.
The nice thing about having my head shoved up backsides is that the view of imaginary alien overlords who grant special dispensation by race is obscured. I wonder if there are Jews, Muslims and Christians in the Crab Nebula?
Plus I can’t quite hear playground comments about my mother.
Here’s a Harry Potter curse in keeping with the delusion and age group that works to whatever extent you believe in such mysticism: “Nutsaxsiatum!”
You’ll shortly feel an itching sensation as you’re drawn to a large shelf in purgatory to await a decision.
Dear Menachem,
Any people, whether it’s people who claim to be Christian, or others, who hate Jews, HATE Jesus Christ the Jew. Jesus kept Saturday Sabbath, the Passover and ALL of the Jewish holy days. Jesus taught from the Jewish Scriptures in the synagogues and in the Temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, Israel.
Teaching from Jewish Scriptures, Jesus declared in Matthew 7:12 “Treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.”
Once the Jew-haters got control of the church, they got rid of all of the Jewish things Jesus did. The Catholic church even changed the Sabbath day to Sunday, severely persecuting Christians who worshiped on Saturday. When the church was still in its infancy, the savage wolves entered the church. With an all-consuming hate for G-D and G-D’s Laws:
YOU SHALL NOT MURDER
Whilst angels wept, the apostate church G-D haters, committed unspeakable acts, atrocities and mass murders against Jews, the people G-D gave His holy Laws to. Crusades. Inquisitions. Cruelly expelled from European countries over and over again.
The savage wolves never left the church. Some hide who they are. Others reveal who they are – they sympathize with Muslim terrorists and demand little Israel give half of her G-D given land to the Islamo Nazis bent on Jewish genocide.
There is one consolation. It will be different one future day when the great, the mighty, and awesome G-D rescues Israel as He promised in the Bible. And Jerusalem and all Israel will dwell in security forever. May that day come quickly.
James,
If that was intended for ‘my benefit’, I think you mistook my message for my friend Menachem. I feel no obligation to him personally – it’s admiration I have for his wisdom, his insight, and I would wager his personal courage. We share a common bond and conviction.
But now that you mention it, I do believe America is smart to ally with Israel. We bitch and moan about foreign aid, but if you want me to be strictly practical with dollars and sense, our “aid” is pennies on the dollar for what we in America receive in return. And my opinion is shared:
“Israel is worth five CIA’s.” ~ General George Keegan, former head of U.S. Air Force Intelligence
James, I smell something – maybe you should run home and have “mommy” change your diaper. Run home the adults are talking.
james, your “mommy” called – she needs to change your diaper. run along the adults are talking.
Alias, your Avatar called, wants to know why you’re a humorless incognito flaming troll.
Larry, what you describe as ‘a Jew caring first for Jews’ is hardly unique. Every ethnocentric group feels that way, considers themselves ‘the chosen’, considers their beliefs and behavior as inviolate and considers other peoples as ‘Other’.
In Canada, the Quebecois feel exactly as you describe the Jew – and when a Quebecer goes outside of Quebec – which they insist is ‘their nation’, he feels himself in an alien territory. That’s also why immigrant groups settle in isolate blocs, and require encouragement to interact with other groups – if they ever do.
Plus, I’m very sure that even in Israel, there are different valuations even of Jews (eg, Sephardic vs Askhenazi)!
Is this a onstructive way to feel? Yes and no. To feel emotionally bonded with others is vital but to differentiate people into those who are ‘fit to interact with’ and those ‘not fit to interact with’…as is often the case within ethnocentric values, is a problem.
” Larry, what you describe as ‘a Jew caring first for Jews’ is hardly unique. Every ethnocentric group feels that way, considers themselves ‘the chosen’, considers their beliefs and behavior as inviolate and considers other peoples as ‘Other’. ”
Jews are ” chosen ” by the Almighty. The world takes that to mean we consider ourselves superior which of course is a not part of Judaism at all. Chosen means a different set of obligations to G-d.
” In Canada, the Quebecois feel exactly as you describe the Jew – and when a Quebecer goes outside of Quebec – which they insist is ‘their nation’, he feels himself in an alien territory. That’s also why immigrant groups settle in isolate blocs, and require encouragement to interact with other groups – if they ever do.”
Jews, do to the nature of religious obligations, are required to live in close proximity to one another. We require special food and special places for prayer, etc. Of course there was a time when we were forced to live together like it or not.
” Plus, I’m very sure that even in Israel, there are different valuations even of Jews (eg, Sephardic vs Askhenazi)! ”
No. We have different variations not different valuations.
” Is this a constructive way to feel? Yes and no. To feel emotionally bonded with others is vital but to differentiate people into those who are ‘fit to interact with’ and those ‘not fit to interact with’…as is often the case within ethnocentric values, is a problem. ”
Do vegetarians go to meat restaurants? Do nuns read Playboy? One always chooses who and with whom to socialize and spend time with. For you to make that determination for others is to force your values on them. I don’t want to force my neighbor to kosher their kitchen. Nor do I wish to insult them by not eating in their home. However every time I BBQ they are happy to come over and I am happy to have them. I think you are painting with too broad a brush.
I think you are changing the meaning of terms to evade my comments.
First, if you claim that ‘chosen people’ has no valuation to the meaning but instead implies ‘chosen-to-carry-out-a-different-task’. Why would one set of people be ‘chosen’ to have a ‘different set of obligations’? Why can’t all peoples have the same obligations?
Your reduction of the real rifts between the Ashkenazi and Sephardim in Israel to ‘different variations’ – denies that people in Israel do evaluate these two versions of Judaism quite differently and that there is long term documented discrimination – against the Sephardim who are deemed ‘less capable’ of living in a modern world than the Ashkenazi.
Your attempt to trivialize and divert my point about a group of people deciding that another group is not fit to be interacted with -to your suggestion that such a group is akin to a group of vegetarians going to a restaurant – is illogical. This isn’t about food tastes but about a belief by one ethnic/religious group that the people in another ethnic/religious group are not ‘fit, as humans, to be interacted with’. That view is firmly held by many orthodox Jews towards ‘the gentiles’ (and you spit if you pass them); it’s held by many Muslims towards others – who can be lied to and deceived because They Are Not Us; it’s held by other ethnic groups, such as the Philippine towards the Chinese; the French towards the English; the…and so on.
” First, if you claim that ‘chosen people’ has no valuation to the meaning but instead implies ‘chosen-to-carry-out-a-different-task’. Why would one set of people be ‘chosen’ to have a ‘different set of obligations’? Why can’t all peoples have the same obligations?”
From a Jewish perspective all people do have the same basic obligations. Additional ones have been imposed upon Jews by G-d. Eating certain foods, refraining from others. Anytime I smell a BLT I ask myself the same question. It smells mighty good but I am forbidden.
” Your reduction of the real rifts between the Ashkenazi and Sephardim in Israel to ‘different variations’ – denies that people in Israel do evaluate these two versions of Judaism quite differently and that there is long term documented discrimination – against the Sephardim who are deemed ‘less capable’ of living in a modern world than the Ashkenazi. ”
Used to be true in the early days but no longer.Today you have black Jews from Ethiopia who are Lubuvitchers and white Jews from England dressed like they are from Ethiopia.
” Your attempt to trivialize and divert my point about a group of people deciding that another group is not fit to be interacted with -to your suggestion that such a group is akin to a group of vegetarians going to a restaurant – is illogical.”
Why?
” This isn’t about food tastes but about a belief by one ethnic/religious group that the people in another ethnic/religious group are not ‘fit, as humans, to be interacted with’. ”
If by ” interacted ” you mean a broad variety of social, business, intellectual contact you are wrong.
” That view is firmly held by many orthodox Jews towards ‘the gentiles’ (and you spit if you pass them); ”
Never in my life have I seen such action. It is a bogus claim. Jews are taught to respect all humanity as we are all children of G-d. If you open a history book you will find that the Jews are not the spitters but, more often than not, the spat upon.
However your comments are most revealing. more about yourself than any ” other “.
In reply to your latest reply to me (there is no reply link), I’ll comment that you continue to divert and evade questions.
Why is one set of people ‘chosen’ to have ‘addititonal obligations’? Why? And why is a dietary rule a religious obligation? Have you ever read Marvin Harris (anthropologist) and his analysis of why the ME people don’t eat pork? Oh – and I’m sure you know that this is an ‘additional obligation’ for both Judaic and Islamic cultures.
The Ashkenazi and Sephardic conflicts are not ‘in the old days’ but continue to this day, although, as you point out, it is a lot better now than it was before. My point is, that all peoples, and that does include Jews, evaluate and differentiate others – even others within their own religion.
With regard to the treatment of ‘others’, is it not a part of orthodox halakhah rules not to sell land/immovable property to gentiles/non-Jews? Reform Jews don’t follow this, but orthodox do.
The fact that you have not observed a Jew spitting when seeing a gentile or a christian symbol does not, of course, mean that no such practice exists. It does and it isn’t a myth. It’s an old practice – and is found not only among Jews, but among many peoples upon seeing ‘Others’. Here’s a recent blog post on the practice.
http://jeremyrosen.blogspot.com/2010/01/spitting-and-praying.html
Equally, your attempt to reduce and divert the validity of my comments by suggesting that I am ‘the problem’ is an invalid argument.
@Menachem:”The Jews are the worlds most endangered species. We are hunted all over the world. Our numbers have been decimated. Our children murdered.Our country besieged. For more than a thousand years.”
Menachem, you must not despair. Judaism’s child, Christianity, is the fastest growing religion today. That’s something that Jews should be pleased with. Christians everywhere are thankful for the Jews. (Now don’t go rooting around in the cellar for something from the past to smack me with. Just take the gratitude for what it is).
I completely agree with the concept that absent an enemy (The Soviet Union, hell-bent on world domination), the West sort of…lost it’s way. We truly do have a tendency to become hypnotized about our toys, entertainments, little self-gratifications, to (at times) the exclusion of reality.
And ironically, the modern woman clad in red, who meets the two burkha clad women presents part of the paradox. In the west, women have gained their rights, including the right to dress attractively/provocatively and our culture has gone crazy with that. Also, women tend to vote less for war and more for schools, healthcare etc. (to use a huge generality). They want careers beyond being a mother/housewife and that has had a huge effect on how we define middle class success.
I don’t claim to have the answers here, but am just pointing out some of the permutations of “losing our way.”
Not to mention the fact that the woman in the red dress will probably have 1 or no children, and will thus not perpetuate her culture, while the women in burquas will most probably have 3 or more each, and their culture will grow.
I make no apology for being a westener. The way Islam is, has not been in any way the fault of the west. Long before there was an America, Islam’s teaching of hate and destruction was being happily accepted by many. They like it just the way it is.
I too have know charming, polite and big smiles muslims. They are not incapable of acting wonderfully in our presense. Still, they have also accepted the teachings of Islam and happily trot off to the mosque every Friday night to chant ‘kill all the apes and pigs’?
For this the west is not to blame, nor does it have any fault in this ideology being acceptable to certain groups of people. The choice was theirs to make and they chose to accept and remain in Islam.
I have said it before and I will say it again: do not mistake softness for a weakness.
The only difference between Mohammad and L. Ron Hubbard is that Hubbard is slightly more even handed regarding women. Both of them made up a religion for the personal gain of his self and his devoted followers.
Dear Mr. Simon (and Mr. Mansur),
You are wrong when you say “The topic of your letter was the West, not Islam.” It was completely about Islam! We ‘dissenters’ haven’t misread him, but rather read through him.
Were it not for Islam, Mr. Mansur would NEVER have written, nor HAD TO write, his screed in the first place. It is not the Buddhist bombers, Hindu holy warriors, Methodist madmen or Coptic killers that threaten the west, even in our alledged pathetic, corrupt, self-immolating state.
It is ONLY ISLAM that causes such “fearful concern” from our Muslim friend, yet in his sham angst he blames US rather than his sociopathic prophet Muhammed and his dogma of universal, unending ‘holy’ jihad.
It is not US, but rather the Allah inspired, Koranic commanded, Muhammed mandated ISLAMIC WORLD WAR raging against every type of non-Muslim in every continent but Antarctica that should trigger “fearful concern.”
Mr. Simon, your questions to Mr. Mansur should have been:
“As a self admitted Muslim, do you believe in the Shahada, the Islamic profession of faith: ‘There is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his messenger’?” He must say yes, or he is an apostate.
Followed by: “As a self admitted Muslim, do you believe the Koran is the direct, unalterable, immutable word of Allah as ‘revealed’ by the ‘holy prophet’ Muhammed?” He must say yes, or he is an apostate.
Followed by: “Do believe as stated in the Koran 68:4 that Muhammed is ‘uswa hasana’, “an exalted standard of character”, and in Islamic tradition which upholds Muhammed as ‘al-insan al-kamil’ or ‘the perfect man’, to be emulated by all Muslims?” He must say yes, or he is an apostate.
The problem with these core beliefs of Mr. Mansur and indeed ALL Muslims, is that, as recorded in the Islamic ‘holy’ texts, far from being a a ‘holy prophet’, Muhammed was in truth a sadistic sociopath, a 7th century Arabian Hitler – only worse – a successful Charles Manson, only creepier and more evil.
Factually, Muhammed was a serial murderer, a sadistic torturer, a heartless amputator, a barbaric decapitator, a heinous mutilator, a human slaver, a looting stealing thief, a profiteering marauding warlord, a serial rapist, a human trafficker, a sex trafficker, a child rapist, a sexual deviant, a hateful misogynist, a perfidious liar, an intolerant genocidist and self proclaimed terrorist.
By any objective standard, Muhammed was one of the most vile and repulsive men in the pantheon of human history, a brutal barbarian consumed by unquenchable sexual lust, greed and power; a megalomaniacal narcissistic sociopath establishing a 1,400 year Islamic Reich that Hitler could only have envied (indeed he did).
Muhammed was an evil man who should have been incarcerated not venerated, and he should be reviled not revered.
Every pathology that afflicts Islam comes directly from this sick man, Muhammed, and the entire world suffers because of him.
Yet this is the man who inspires Mr. Mansur and is the moral and spiritual beacon for one fifth of the world’s population (1.2 billion Muslims)??
Mr. Mansur, if you openly reject Muhammed and his violent Islamic supremecist doctine of jihad, we might suspend our scepticism of your “fearful concern” – but that would make you an apostate subject to Muhammeds catch-22 death fatwa:
“In the words of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’” – Sahih Bukhari(84:57)
But if you don’t reject Muhammed’s ‘morality’, you are a dissimulating fraud.
What’s it going to be, Mr. Mansur? You can’t have it both ways.
~ The Infidel Alliance
Well said. I agree with Christopher Hitchens on one thing: the Koran is a bad plagerism of the Bible. Also, we must admit that it is difficult to have a dialogue with Muslims; one only has to look at what happens to reporters who go in the midst of the protesters in the streets of these Middle East countries to see that dialogue is next to impossible. When a Christian tries to share his faith, he is jailed and tortured for blasphemy.
Actually, the questions I’d ask are (in addition to yours):
1) Do you admit the death penalty for conversion from Islam (Islam requires it)
2) Do you wish to replace the laws and customs of western lands with Shariah law?
3) Are you willing to kill and die in order to do this?
4) Do you desire the re-establishment of the Caliphate and the placement of non-Muslims into a position of dhimmitude?
As Robert Spencer has pointed out numerous times, these things are required of Muslims.
The uprisings and riots in the ME signify a rejection of the repression of the respective regimes, but if the core of the rioters beliefs can be reduced to what you say regarding ‘M’, then we can hardly expect any new government(s) to be built on concepts of equality and liberty. It’s not in their cultural DNA. The question in the West is how well is that expression suppressed when they emigrate to our lands? Apparently not well enough.
Fellow readers,
Here are some important things to understand about about Islam:
1) Saudi Arabia: has no constitution as we know it. Their constitution is the Koran. The Saudi flag features the Islamic profession of faith, the Shahada “There is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his messenger”. and the instrument of Muhammeds terror and sujugation, the ‘Saif-ul-Allah’ (sword of Allah). These represent the theological foundation for the ISLAMIC WORLD WAR.
2) Article 2 of the Egyptian Constitution states “Islam is the Religion of the State. Arabic is its official language, and the principal source of legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia) law.” Do we believe the ‘democracy activists’ will remove this from the new constituion?
3) The much mentioned ‘Caliphate’ is not limited to just Egypt and the North African states. The ‘Caliphate’ will include the 57 member states of the Organization of Conference (OIC), two of which are in South America. Look at the OIC map for yourself.
4) The OIC rejected the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopting instead the ‘Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam’, which affirms Islamic Sharia law as its ideological and legal foundation.
Please understand the implications of these points – Islam is not just ‘different’ than the non-Islamic world, it is completely antithetical to the non-Islamic world.
~ The Infidel Alliance
Israel doesn’t have a constitution as we know it, neither does Great Britain.
Well and bravely said.
Like the provocateurs planning the western capital of the new Caliphate in NYC with their “Córdoba Project” at Ground Zero, Salim is following the Koranic dictate of lying to the infidel to tranquilize them before the slaughter.
You nailed it!!
The letter from Salim and the author’s reply are, to use a phrase, very downer stuff. Yet, given the current situation, such sentiments are justified, but only to a degree. People should recall the other crisis times we have gone through, like the Great Depression, the ‘dark days’ of WWII, the Cold War, and the post-Vietnam Seventies’ malaise and we will survive Obama. If last year’s election was anything it says that we will be flushing him and his sub-par administration out of our system next year. But the political games that Obama and the Democrats are already playing will require a strong stomach because it will get worse before it gets better.
Thanks for your letter to Salim – whose letter itself was excellent.
I think it vital for this dialogue to begin – in public and not simply in private – asking basic questions of the nature of and agenda of Islam.
These must be asked. And answered. If Muslims want to play a role in the global reality, they must themselves, ask themselves – what role do they want to play?
We know what role the Islamic fascists want to play, but it is an incredibly narrow role. They tell us they want to conquer us; they tell us that they want everyone to follow Sharia law. That’s where their agenda stops. They totally and completely ignore: the economic system, the political system, the knowledge system. Totally ignore these basics.
Economy. Islam has only existed in pre-industrial economies, primitive horticultural and pastoral economies at subsistence level. It hasn’t been able to move a population in any part of the world, on its own, into an industrial economy.
The Middle East nations that moved into industrialism have done so only because of the actions and technological ability of the West to mine and process the raw resources: oil, the Suez Canal. The Muslims didn’t do this on their own; the West did it for them. And the current troubles in the ME are due to their own inability to empower the majority of their population within the economy.
Political: Islamic nations remain tribal, which is to say, two-class with a dominant set of hereditary or unelected Rulers – and the masses. Islam, because it rejects individualism, is unable to exist as a middle class population of self-motivated, individualistic and reasoning people. But the world is democratic, i.e., empowering individuals as reasoning and acting people. How can Islam participate in the world when it will not allow the majority of its citizens the freedom to act?
Knowledge. Islam rejects the individual as capable of reason; it rejects science. All innovations in any and all fields (contrary to Obama’s saccharine lies in his Cairo speech) have been from the West. Not one scientific contribution has been made by Islam. All technological results used by Muslims – from cars, planes, resource extraction, to cell phones, facebook and guns and medicine and….have all been due to the innovations of the West. How can Islam participate in a global knowledge system based on science – when it rejects science?
What is Islam in its relation to others? It seeks to dominate. What moral right does it have to do so? I hope I have outlined my concerns that it has no economic, political or knowledge rights to do so. But what moral right does it have? Just to declare: ‘We dominate because we say we are the Best’ is a tautology and invalid as an argument. Can Muslims answer this?
I think that a public dialogue must be carried out…and that we fight back against the Islamic agenda, not only by physical confrontation but by intellectual force and confrontation.
“Moderate Muslim” is a term that has no real meaning. Perhaps a better term would be a secular muslim, meaning a non-religious person who was born into a muslim family.
It is true that Christians have done horrible deeds in the name of their religion. But I keep my faith because of what Jesus, who was God, did. He died for the sins of all. The God of the Bible is ever patient, slow to anger, and full of abounding love.
Individual muslims may be moderate but Islam is not. Unfortunately Islamic religious leaders often are silent about or find reasons to justify violent actions done in the name of Islam. Mormons banned polygamy, paving the way for Utah’s admission to the Union. If Mormons were condoning terrorism, would they have been allowed into the Union?
How to defeat them? There is one, and only one way … render their oil valueless. We will have to either 1. take their oil by force; or 2. create an entirely new generation primary energy source. They are without skill at creating anything of value. If their oil stops bringing them unearned wealth, they will lose all their power.
Sad to say, in the meantime, the passion of their youth and their willingness to, even love of, ruthlessness is stronger than our best weapons or policies. Maybe a major successful terrorist attack on our cities will awaken our stupefied young people as to who they are, what we stand to lose and their role in the acting out of the Clash of Civilizations, which is probably what we ought to be calling it by now.
No. It is not a ‘Clash of Civilizations’, nor is it a ‘War on error.’ It is
THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR
We must understand that ISLAM’S PRIME DIRECTIVE is the militant conquest of the entire world, mandated by Allah & Muhammed in:
- the Koran (8:39) – “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah”,
and in this hadith: Sahih Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle Muhammed said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’”
Islamists have been dutifully following this mandate for 1,400 years, since the time Muhammed left Mecca for Medina. What we are facing is nothing less than an ISLAMIC WORLD WAR that rages on every continent except Antarctica, against everyone and everything “non-Islamic”.
Let’s look at the FACTS. Islam against:
- the Catholics in the Philippines (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Christians in Indonesia (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- Australian tourists in Bali (blown up…twice)
- the Buddhists in Thailand (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Hindus & Sikhs in India (hundreds of years battling the Islamic Jihad)
- the Jews in Mumbai (slaughtered)
- the Zoroastrians & Baha’i in Iran (virtually exterminated)
- Islamic converts to Christianity in Afghanistan (death fatwa)
- ancient Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, Afghanistan (blown up)
- the Chaldean Christians in Iraq (routine persecution, slaughter & church burnings)
- the Jews in Israel (routine attacks against civilians, threat of 2nd genocide)
- the Jews in Yemen (nearly exterminated)
- S. Korean & German tourists in Yemen (blown up)
- the Coptic Christians in Egypt (routine persecution, slaughter & church attacks)
- the Christians & animists in Sudan (genocide)
- the Christians in Kenya (constant Jihadist threat from Obama’s homies)
- the Christians in Nigeria (routine Jihadist attacks)
- U.S. embassies in Tanzania & Kenya (blown up)
- the athiests in Europe (the prime target)
- the native French in Paris (torched car terrorism)
- Jews in Paris (read the grisly story of Ilan Halimi, a Jewish shop clerk who was kidnapped, tortured and killed in 2006)
- the native Swedes in Malmo (Islamic rape brigades)
- the native Dutch in Amsterdam (routinely terrorized)
- Dutch politicians (Geert Wilders & Ayyan Hirsi Ali – death fatwa)
- Dutch cinematographers (Theo vanGogh savagely murdered by an Islamist in broad daylight)
- Dutch cartoonists (Kurt Westergaard – death fatwa)
- Dutch newspaper editors (Flemming Rose, Jyllands-Posten’s culture editor – death fatwa)
- Train commuters in Spain (blown up)
- Tube commuters in London (blown up)
- Airports in Scotland (blown up)
- Jews in Argentina (blown up)
- Jews in Caracas (blown up)
- Twin Tower office workers in N.Y. (blown up – twice)
- Defense workers in the Pentagon (blown up – airliner jihad)
- Army/Navy military recruiters in Little Rock (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Soldiers in Ft. Hood Texas (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Pedestrians at the U. of N. Carolina (run down with an SUV by Islamist)
- Journalists like Daniel Pearl (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Nick Berg, Kim Sung-il, Piotr Stanczyk, Jack Hensley, Eugene Armstrong, Paul Johnson (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Jewish centers in Seattle (slaughtered by Islamic Jihadist)
- Jewish centers in Toronto (slaughtered by Islamic Jihadist)
- Infidel Delta Airlines passengers (underwear bomber)
- Times Square pedestrians (SUV bomber)
- Soccer fans in Uganda (Blown up while watching the world cup)
- Christian doctors in Afghanistan (savagely slaughtered by the Taliban)
And on, and on, and on…
It is Islam against everyone, everything, everywhere that is not Islamic.
It is Dar al-Islam against Dar al-Harb. Islam against us, not us against them.
THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR – Muhammed’s legacy – it’s real.
~ The Infidel Alliance
You forgot the Dahab, Sharm El-Sheikh and Luxor attacks, all in Egypt and the 2002 Djerba, Tunisia truck bomb tourist attack.
And the pogrom against the Amahdiyya in Indonesia, and the Armenian genocide, and the notorious Islamic slave trade in Zanzibar….the list is endless.
Simply, the hard truth is:
Know Islam, no peace. No Islam, know peace.
~ The Infidel Alliance
Add to this list the gang-rape of CBS correspondent Lara Logan last Friday in Cairo. She was repeatedly raped by who knows how many Muslim men, while other Muslim men gathered round to watch.
This list of atrocities that you have compiled is stunning. I would like to hear Mr. Mansur try to defend these violent actions, which were committed in the name of his God and his religion. Impossible to do so, I would think.
Infidel Alliance,
Your comment should be published regularly in non-Muslim media around the world. Besides your long list, jihad is waged on a daily basis. The shocking, immoral response of Western leaders to constant jihad is to take in more and more Muslims and persecute and prosecute non-Muslims who speak out.
This is a deeply insightful article, and the responses are to this point, excellent. I hope I do not end the streak! Islam, like Mormonism, and even Satanism (to an extent) are religions unlike others in the world. They are response religions. Religions manufactured to defeat and replace the JudeoChristian faith. It can be argued by some that Christianity started the trend, and I think you could make a strong historical argument from the Anti-Semitic history, but at this point in time that is a distraction rather than a valid point.
The 3 religions I have cited have common important roots and motives, but only Islam has the firepower to endanger the culture that has flowered and flourished so much that generations of unbelievers still enjoy it’s fruits.
And that is the danger. we are at a stage in history where a generation that “knows not Joseph” has grown up and the perpetual teenagers who populate Western societies are in rebellion against the Establishment that makes all their toys. In doing so, they are becoming a new crop of “useful idiots.” The Rachel Corries who hate their societies so much that they ally with Islam, simply because it also hates that society. This hatred blinds them to the fact that the very ills they strain to perceive in the West are writ large and bold in their new friends.
These foxes seek to cross a river and know nothing about the scorpions that they are begging for a ride. Nothing good will come of this.
There is no such thing as the Judeo/Christian faith. Christianity is somewhat based on Judaism, but the tenets of these religions are quite different.
@Canadian Jew: “There is no such thing as the Judeo/Christian faith. Christianity is somewhat based on Judaism, but the tenets of these religions are quite different.”
Oh, just get over it. It’s not for nothing that Jesus was irritated with his “stiff-necked” brethren. The world is about to get much more difficult, and Jews should start trying to build relationships with those who would be their friends.
Being stiff-necked is a good thing, if it means standing by one’s principles.
In this context, someone attempting to speak for the Jews should be one who accepts and understands Torah Judaism.
No opinion unless from an expert, huh? I heard this during the OJ trial when people voiced their opinion about OJ’s guilt. In some people’s mind it was not ok to have an opinion since it was a legal matter.
Or at least someone who understands that the world rests on the belly of a giant turtle whose naval is Agung Volcano on the island of Bali.
James, I smell something – maybe you should run home and have “mommy” change you diaper. Run home the adults are talking.
Since I’m not with you I think you’re suffering the “Dutch Oven” effect. My advice is to open the windows and take a shower.
Just remember: that screen isn’t really a window.
When you’re at the window don’t forget to thank God for all the clouds and maybe name them individually so you can be friends with them.
To Roger:
You’re not alone in “wanting to believe” (and we don’t mean in x-files).
I think our souls want and need to connect to something greater than us, but living in the post-modern secular society creates barriers in our mind and emotions that block it.
I read two books that helped:
Garden of Emunah: A Practical Guide to Life
http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Emunah-Practical-Guide-Enlarged/dp/9659134215
Permission To Believe: Four Rational Approaches to God’s Existence
http://www.amazon.com/Permission-Believe-Rational-Approaches-Existence/dp/0944070558
The first is more focused on day to day emotional life. The 2nd is for people who have an intellectual aversion to believing in a higher power.
After murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, the American right decides to demonize Muslims as barbarians so they don’t have to live with the guilt of knowing they ended so many innocent lives.
Meanwhile, “reasonable” conservatives like Roger L. Simon make up arbitrary standards that Muslims have to follow in order to be considered moderate.
What a farce.
AJB
I have rarely seen two more ingorant and irrelevant postings than yours at positions 23 and 25.
Americans killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi’s – source?
“reasonable” arbirary standards that Muslims have to follow to be considered moderate – Oh, you mean arbitrary standards like not murdering innocents with homicide bombers, not sawing off the heads of journalists, not issuing death fatwa’s on authors, not killing, imprisoning or subjugating individuals solely based on their none belief in Islam. – Yep, those are arbitrary.
MORON
Saddam Hussein? Hello? Bueller?
In 100 years, Islam will be as unrecognizable from what it is today as what it is today is nearly unrecognizable from what it was a century ago.
In this it will follow the course already sailed by Christianity and Judaism before it, only it’s voyage will take place at a much faster rate.
The liberal reforms of the West coupled with the economic reforms of the East opened a window for Muslims of how their lives could be different…Saudis watching “Baywatch” on Panasonic televisions, Iranian women of the early 1970′s driving Toyotas to stores where they could buy Gucci clothing, represented the threat to Islam that inspired the backlash that culminated in the Iranian theocracy…and 9/11.
Manifestly, the Muslim and Arab peoples liked what they saw, and as Iraq and Tunis and Cairo, and a host of other popular paroxysms across the Middle East today show, they still yearn for the individual freedom of the West and the wealth possible from the productivity of the East.
In the face of such dual temptations, unreformed Islam cannot stand, the fortress will not hold. Even Mohammed Atta and his fellow terrorists, before they committed their mass murders in the name of Islam, partook themselves of the degenerate and sinful diversions offered by the West, did they not?
“Jihadi” terrorists drinking alcohol and getting lap-dances in a strip-club…absurd, but true.
Such as these are Islam’s champions?
Islam, to a degree even more profound than other faiths, with its Shariah law and its Hadiths, is based upon the conceit of human knowledge of the Divine plan.
This is presumptuous folly, and it is also sinful…the sin of Pride.
We just ain’t that smart.
Menachem Ben Yakov up above quoted a saying:
”fear of G-d is the beginning of Wisdom“
I’d offer that the fear of God rests upon two pillars, that one must recognize that we are profoundly ignorant, and that we personally are not long for this Earth.
We do not know the hour of our death, and we do not know what, if anything, comes afterward.
And yet Islam, almost alone among the panoply of human faiths, stands defiant before God and proclaims Certainty, where nearly all the rest, being humbled by history, profess Belief.
Communism also proclaimed the Certainty of atheism, and yet its arc lasted less than 100 diabolically bloody years.
We are engaged in mopping up its remnants today.
The degree to which Muslims,(although this is a valid observation for any other faith),will cling to this sinful humanist conceit will determine the degree of pain and bloodshed that will be required to realize its reform.
That it WILL be reformed is beyond question. There are simply more of us than there are of them.
One can hope that Muslims will give more thought to what they do NOT know rather than to what they THINK they know…and begin acting in accord with the humility that contemplating one’s own ignorance is bound to engender in a rational person.
Otherwise it will not be possible for us to share this planet.
I hope your optimistic assessment is correct. But as I am so aware of the darker natures of individuals, I think groups tend to sink to the lowest common denominator.
I’m not being optimistic, Bill, I’m being wistfully hopeful in the face of what I strongly suspect will be, and indeed already is, a global holocaust not only for Islam, but for many good people of other faiths also.
There was an essay about the clash of the Dar el Summa with European civilization published at Gates of Vienna blog a few years ago by a chap named El Ingles, that was the rationale Mr. Simon used to eject GoV from PJM.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/04/surrender-genocide-or-what.html
I recommend it to you, and Mr. Salim , and perhaps it is time that that article was re-read with an older and wiser set of eyes.
As more Muslims begin to question the Certainties of the Prophet, those who are threatened by this, and who see themselves as safeguarding his legacy, will be compelled to more frequent and more horrendous acts of violence, and sooner or later this culminates in the irrationality of “saving” that which you claim you love by authoring its destruction.
“It is sad but true: responsible freedom in the West appears to have depended on having a communist enemy.”
Wow. Imagine that. A conservative who actually admits the need for an eternal boogieman to scare people into complacency with. And I suppose “responsible freedom” is the freedom to prop up dictators and bomb third world countries into submission.
AJB let’s just ask ourselves why the Islamist’s aren’t attacking China?
they are trying to but China doesn’t play nice like USA and Canada and EU
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4435135.stm
I agree with THE INFIDEL ALLIANCE above:
it is islam that is waging a world war against everyone else.
And we are losing because our elites have been bought and the internationalist subversives hate the West.
Period.
If we wake up to these two points we will win and the muslim world will decide by itself if it wants to keep attacking (and be destroyed) or if it wants to dedicate itself to something human (like working, for example).
Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes events occur that seem out of place but it is only seems so due to the limited perspective of the individual. Many will deny that a spiritual world exists because they themselves have not experienced it. That is understandable. Spiritual understanding and belief can come from study or experience. There is no other way. For many the only way they will call out to The Almighty will require tremendous personal suffering. The old saying that, ” There are no atheists in foxholes. ” describes the situation well.
The perfection of Mankind does not require a better cell phone or a new flat screen television. It does not require that all human beings pray the same way or hold the same religious beliefs. The ” mind ” of G-d is so infinite that perhaps the song of every creature, the fate of every drop of water, the path of every pebble, holds His interest. No one can know. Yet the perfection of Mankind is definitely afoot.
What is needed is respect for the common humanity that binds us all.
Why did all Mankind come from Adam and Eve?
So that no one can say I am better than another.
Why did all Mankind come from Adam and Eve?
So that no one can say I am better than another.
Tell that to the children of parents who pick ‘favorites’.
Ahh, so you, with your insistence on determinism, that ‘everything happens for a reason’, reject the existence of chance, the freedom of randomness. For you, the world is mechanical; it’s predetermined and set. I disagree. I think that nature itself shows the existence of chance, the random formation of this cell with that cell to produce a more complex organism.
Also, your declaration
“Many will deny that a spiritual world exists because they themselves have not experienced it. That is understandable. Spiritual understanding and belief can come from study or experience.”..is illogical and subjective.
You are essentially saying that ‘IF I experience it, THEN, a spiritual world exists’. And, IF I study it, THEN, a spiritual world exists’. This is a fallacious argument for it privileges the particular (me) over the universal (the spiritual world). Reverse it.
“A spiritual world exists; and, I can experience and/or study it’.
Now, the question must be asked: Prove the first statement (a spiritual world exists)…and, of course, you can’t. It’s a matter of faith not proof (despite Aquinas Five Proofs for the existence of god).
Both your determinism and rejection of chance, and your belief in the existence of god are matters of faith. I happen to disagree with both beliefs…not out of lack of experience or study but out of the use of reason and experience.
” Ahh, so you, with your insistence on determinism, that ‘everything happens for a reason’, reject the existence of chance, the freedom of randomness. For you, the world is mechanical; it’s predetermined and set. I disagree. I think that nature itself shows the existence of chance, the random formation of this cell with that cell to produce a more complex organism.”
Etab, I am glad I provided you with an ” ahh ” moment. let me try and provide you with an ” Aha! ” moment as well.
The statement you make above has been proven false through scientific method. Please see below regarding Dr. Schroeder.
” Also, your declaration
“Many will deny that a spiritual world exists because they themselves have not experienced it. That is understandable. Spiritual understanding and belief can come from study or experience.”..is illogical and subjective.
You are essentially saying that ‘IF I experience it, THEN, a spiritual world exists’. And, IF I study it, THEN, a spiritual world exists’. This is a fallacious argument for it privileges the particular (me) over the universal (the spiritual world). Reverse it.
“A spiritual world exists; and, I can experience and/or study it’.”
No. The spiritual world exists whether or not one experiences. Just as color exists even though a blind person may not not experience it. My point was that certain conditions, study or experience, open ones eyes.
” Now, the question must be asked: Prove the first statement (a spiritual world exists)…and, of course, you can’t. It’s a matter of faith not proof (despite Aquinas Five Proofs for the existence of god).”
Easy. Here I am. A Jew. Explain it otherwise.”
” Both your determinism and rejection of chance, and your belief in the existence of god are matters of faith. I happen to disagree with both beliefs…not out of lack of experience or study but out of the use of reason and experience. ”
No. It is indeed from lack of study. And the wishful suspension of reason.
What follows is one of ” Top Five Scientific Myths Popularly Accepted as Fact ” –
” Very occasionally monkeys hammering away at typewriters will type out one of Shakespeare’s sonnets.
Not true, not in this universe. But it is a popular assumption that the monkeys can do it, a wrong assumption that randomness can produce meaningful stable complexity. But let’s look at the numbers to see why the monkeys will always fail. I’ll take the only sonnet I know, sonnet number 18, “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day …” All sonnets are 14 lines, all about the same length. This sonnet has approximately 488 letters (neglect spaces). With a typewriter or keyboard having 26 letters, the number of possible combinations is 26 to the exponential power of 488 or approximately ten to the power of 690. That is a one with 690 zeros after it. Convert the entire 10 to the 56 grams of the universe (forget working with the monkeys) into computer chips each weighing a billionth of a gram and have each chip type out a billion sonnet trials a second (or 488 billion operations per second) since the beginning of time, ten to the 18th seconds ago. The number of trials will be approximately ten to power of 92, a huge number but minuscule when compared with the 10 to power 690 possible combinations of the letters. We are off by a factor of ten to power of 600. The laws of probability confirm that the universe would have reached its heat death before getting one sonnet. We will never get a sonnet by random trials, and the most basic molecules of life are far more complex than the most intricate sonnet. As reported in the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times and the Chicago Tribune, when the world’s most influential atheist philosopher, Antony Flew, read this analysis of complexity and several analyses related to the complexity of life brought in my third book, The Hidden Face of God, and Roy Varghese’s excellent book, The Wonder of the World, he abandoned his errant belief in a Godless world and publically apologized for leading so many persons astray for the decades that his atheistic thoughts held sway.”
http://geraldschroeder.com/ScientificMyths.aspx
No, Menachim, you continue to evade.
First, there is no scientific proof of a deterministic universe or the non-existence of randomness and chance. Your deterministic, mechanical and Newtonian world ignores the reality of the quantum processes which are not governed by deterministic processes but by probability.
Your example that randomness cannot exist because if it did, then monkeys could type out a Shakespearan sonnet by random action is a total misunderstanding of chance and randomness.
Randomness does not refer to the emergence of a whole complex entity from ‘bits’. That’s a mechanical (and invalid) perspective of ‘order from chaos’. That’s a trivial and false example of the emergence of order.
Chance or randomness refers to non-determined changes in relations between units – with these changes emerging within the property of self-organization. That is, the units are not static entities but are adaptive and can, due to interactions with other units in their local environment, change themselves.
The relations between these units transform the order of operations within the whole. The changes do not emerge from any top-down or hierarchical authority (that’s determinism). You obviously reject this – and yet, the existence of emergent chance-driven organization is a basic component of complex adaptive systems (CAS) – which have been scientifically proven to exist in all our world: the physical, biological, economic, social.
Second, your ‘proof’ for your claim that a spiritual world exists can’t be: “Here I am. A Jew”. Your error is to claim that Because YOU exist AND you believe in a spiritual world, THEN, a spiritual world exists. That’s a modus ponens fallacy.
After all, one could say that Because Joe Blow exists AND rejects a spiritual world, THEN, there is no such thing as a spiritual world.
The particular does not prove the existence of a universal.
Etab, If you read the entire thread here you will come across the work of Dr. Gerald Schroeder. I would suggest you read his most recent work, ” God According To God “. In it your comments are systematically and scientifically disproved. Rather than regurgitate the book little by little I suggest you read it. You are obviously intelligent and his work will appeal to your intellect more effectively than I ever could.
I’ve already taken a look at Schroeder’s comments – on various sites – and I’m not convinced of his analyses. After all, his argument against randomness, which is The Monkey and the Typewriter, is completely invalid.
I certainly agree with the necessity for the study of physics – and biology as well, but I don’t agree with Schroeder’s suggestion of God as first cause (which is also, of course, one of Aquinas’ arguments). And I absolutely reject determinism which is a mechanical reductionism, because of my support for the existence of Complex Adaptive Systems.
I stand by my comments made in my debate with you.
If one of the smartest men on the planet can’t convince you, if, in your arrogance you are unwilling to even read a book, there is no further point in dialogue.
http://geraldschroeder.com/About.aspx
Have you seen a complex system evolve from nothingness to intelligence? Why do you assume that randomness and quantum theory are incompatible with a creator of the universe? To evaluate religious claims, one must use historical and philosophical criteria.
ETAB: I respect your right to be sceptical of a spiritual existance. But, I felt that you were somewhat disrespectful towards Menachem. That his arguments weren’t pursuasive, doesn’t mean he is wrong.
“No. The spiritual world exists whether or not one experiences. Just as color exists even though a blind person may not not experience it. My point was that certain conditions, study or experience, open ones eyes.”
Interesting that you should use “color” as an analogy.
Color does not exist in the universe. There is nothing out there but photons of various wavelengths. At 650 nanometers wavelength, you see red. At 450, blue.
“Color” is merely an illusion, created in our brains, as cells react to photons. The fact is, a photon of red light has the same color as a photon whose frequency puts it in the microwave range- none at all. But our retina does not react to the microwave photon, it creates no process in our brain… no color. Color exists in a blind person’s universe in the same manner as my dreams exist in yours. In fact, if we were all blind to light, there would be no color. The photons and their wavelengths would still exist. THey are real.
We can objectively, scientifically test the fact that different photons exist, and that they have different wavelengths. No such test exists for the “spiritual” universe.
Is there a moderate Islam? Are there lazy Catholics? Can one be an agnostic Jew?
I don’t have any answers to these questions. Only more questions.
Secular Judaism seems to be a contradiction in terms. When did the human race cross into the stage where they began to believe that they were not merely made in the image of their deity…but in place of…?
When did we become so arrogant as to believe that we were more important, more wise, more “in control” of destiny…than that silly little invisible man in the sky?
We clearly do not have faith in our fellow man and with good reason. If we have lost, abandoned, misplaced or affirmatively refused our faith in a Supreme Being, then we are left to have only faith in ourselves. One of six billion, controlling the fate of the universe. That would take monumental self-delusion.
So, what we really have, is the absence of faith. We have been stripped of the joy of belonging and have replaced it with perpetual resistance…in fact, the only time we join together these days, is in resistance to something.
The leaders of France, Britain and Germany have said that multi-culturalism as an experiment has failed. It cannot stand. They miss the point.
It is a noble experiment and it works…IF…we are moving toward a worthy and noble goal. If it is used as an excuse to tear down society, to engage in eternal resistance, it is battle without end.
Islam is antithetical to Biblical democracy. In the west, the law inculcates our Judeo-Christian heritage. The ACLU may foam at the mouth at that truth, but it won’t change it.
We are a Bible-based society. The children of Abraham follow the tenets and the teachings of the Bible. The following of these teachings welcome many cultures to ALSO FOLLOW. But, they do not invite others to overthrow our system.
Islam, by its very nature…is an alpha dog looking to lead a pack. It holds its tail high to signify dominance. It enters a new pack and it must, by its very nature, attempt to assume the dominant position by attacking and disciplining all others. There is no other way.
Communism (whether large C or small c), whether disguised as “moderate” socialism, is also an alpha dog. It may team up on a hunt to kill capitalism, free market enterprise and Judeo-Christian followings…but eventually the battle must be set for ultimate domination.
So, we are in a fight for control over our destiny. And, it is time…alas…that we must pick a side. All the pack of Communists, socialists, leftists of every stripe….all the pack of the army of Muhammed, Islamists, “moderates”, followers of the Koran…and all the followers of the Judeo-Christian teachings…are at a crossroads.
We have shown we cannot live together. The question now is, can we co-exist apart?
The question now is, can we co-exist apart?
Religion, politics, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, geography, personal preferences…you name it, whatever ‘it’ is, ‘it’ can ‘divide’ or ‘unite’ us whether we self-segregate or we are forcibly separated into large groups or smaller factions.
Each individual will never be exactly like any other individual, even ‘twins’… It’s amazing people can agree on anything at all in great numbers!
1) Islam is an army. Designed for conquest and domination. Period.
In this case, a whole society was mobilized by what seems to have been a very pragmatic leader in some respects. Just take a look at the faith with this in mind. Not everyone has to be fighting on the front lines to be a part of the military. Culture does not come to an end. It is part of any well functioning army. Science, technology, agriculture, exploration and a host of other positives must be included in the whole in order for success to be achieved.
Most people like being part of an army of some sort, a dedicated group, the bigger the better, especially if that army has a cause such as bringing the “light” to others and ensuring that everyone becomes a part of the same army. Most people like being the same as everyone else in their group, for instance praying in the same way as thousands of other people in the same building. Most people like having a disciplined structure imposed on them.
2) Islam CANNOT co-exist with other faiths unless those other faiths are subject to it. One has only to think of the host of accomodations that Muslims must have in every sphere of their lives just to practice their faith on an every day basis. Their religious code has to supplant other ways of life just to exist! Take for instance special hours for pools and gyms. Who takes a back seat? What about pork free cafeterias?
Muslims sincerely believe that if they are good people, then Islam must have made them good. This is in fact what they are taught. But the truth is that most Muslims, like most people are born wanting to be good and wanting to be good and do good. Like most people, they cannot imagine how the environment in which they were raised for the most part happily, can be a bad thing that can harm others. They are simply blind to anything about that environment that contradicts that ideal picture they have, that ideal teaching that the goodness of the Muslims they have known in their lives is directly caused by Islam. Therefore, Islam is what they believe it to be. It is always emphatically not what they don’t want to believe it to be.
I think it may be possible to compare religions in an objective way and even to bring moderate Muslims aboard. However, I cannot imagine their faith surviving that process. They would simply have to deny too much and cling too desparately to the supposed good parts of Islam to continue.
>Unlike the Bible, a series of tales told by various parties, the Koran is >supposedly the verbatim dictation of Allah to Mohammed and not subject to >revision, self-contradictory though it may be.
The Jewish view is that the Five Books of Moses are the verbatim dication of G-d to Moses. This was believed due to the miracles experienced by the Israelites during the Exodus, and especially that of the Divine Revelation of G-d to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai. Other books in the Hebrew Bible were written by the Prophets or otherwise given imprimatur by the Men of the Great Assembly who cannonized the Hebrew Bible. It should also be obvious that Jews don’t believe in the Divine origin of any other religion’s text.
That “Pillar of Fire”? Turns out it was just Santorini blowing its top so you can all relax. Don’t get me wrong, I like worshiping rocks as much as the next guy, especially if they’re from outer space.
Comets are good too, yeah.
I followed a star once – led me to a dry cleaners. LSD isn’t exactly a GPS system.
> James May: That “Pillar of Fire”? Turns out it was just Santorini blowing its top so you can all relax.
I appreciate your sense of humor. But, to nitpick your comment, the Santorini volcano explosion occurred around 1645–1600 BCE (according to radiocarbon dating), or around 1500 BCE, according to archeological evidence. Based on Jewish chronology, the Exodus began in 1312 BCE.
http://doronnof.net/downloads/ny-times1.pdf
What’s the point in seeking a naturalistic explanation for a specific miracle in the Exodus story? It doesn’t prove anything either way. We all know there is a lack of physical evidence, although it could be that compelling evidence does exist buried in the desert sands.
Since the Christian era didn’t start til some undetermined time after the birth of Christ, I think you’re trying to trip me up with some trickery.
This leads me to believe that you agree with me about Santorini and are just being playful. Anyway, who’s to say that God doesn’t talk through volcanoes.
I’ve been alone at night on top of erupting volcanoes and if that isn’t the voice of God then there isn’t a God in my opinion.
James, I smell something – maybe you should run home and have “mommy” change you diaper. Run home the adults are talking.
gray man: LoL – You’re the man!
Yeah, the adults are talking: about mythical aliens who chose people based on race and tell ‘em not to eat pork chop sandwiches or they’ll go to an imaginary nether region while invoking playground images of my mother and blowing up people over holy rocks.
It all makes perfect adult sense to me. Think I’ll stay the eternal 7 year old.
Sadly, you are more like a 13 yr old. You have yet to discover how little you know, and you are insufferable.
Thanks for the bump up in age.
Really I was responding to the idea that adults are talking while he’s repetitiously invoking playground insults – all done by a man who uses the alias of an obscure serial killer. Kinda ironic/moronic don’t you think? Perhaps I should write an essay titled: “I Know YOU Are But What Am I? The True Face of God.” That has a kind of existential snazziness about it don’t you think?
Groucho Marx was insufferable too as he also liked to pop humorless balloons so I consider it a compliment.
“Dear Salim” is a joke, you Simon are a joke, your “letters” are a joke, the issues you address are a joke. But look at the broader environ where this is taking place: America and its culture has become a joke, the West has shrunk down to a bad joke. We’re witnessing a monumental collapse of the social system to a comedy/tragedy of biblical proportions. Classical Greek drama isn’t large and deep enough to fully account for it.
You know why?
Because Christianity has been degraded by atheists, homosexuals, islamists and other cults mascarading as “religions” and by Christians themselves. Christianity, a pillar of Western Culture, has been debased by enemies outside and inside its gates. Morality and the fear of God has become extinct, humanity has receded back to its crass animalistic behavior, and the decency of human character has disappeared from the face of this Earth. It was obviously a recessive gene and the Wrath og God.
I agree that there are definitely moderate Muslims and a lot of them. Very good, decent people, who are to be admired. The tragedy is, there is no such thing as moderate Islam. And I believe, there will NEVER be a moderate Islam.
A major teaching of Judaism is kindness. Indeed, KINDNESS is G-D’s requirement for all humanity. How beautiful G-D is! What a wonderful and safe world it would be if everyone followed G-D’s requirement!
Jewish Scriptures, Micah 6:8 And what does the L-RD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-D.
From its inception, Islam was very violent. Murderous hate for non-Muslims is taught in the Koran. Founder of Islam, Mohammad, was a huge slave trader. He is considered the perfect man by Muslims who follow the Koranic teaching. Mohammad murdered/beheaded 700 Jews because of the Jews love for, and allegiance to Almighty God, Creator of the Universe. The Jews refused to follow the new religion of Islam and another god. The Jews’ wives and children were seized as slaves to lives of living hell. The Jews’ courage and love for God will never be forgotten.
32. Linda Rivera
good post!
“Micah 6:8 And what does the L-RD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-D.”
A careful reading demonstrates that doing justice is a precondition to kindness. Our problem has not been not enough kindness; indeed, we have been very kind to people who do not value kindness.
Our problem is our unwillingness to exercise justice. That is why there are pirates taking hostages off of Somalia. That is why blond reporters get gang-raped in a “celebrating” crowd. If we would go after these animals and punish them then the world would be safe for kindness.
The L-RD doesn’t want a bunch of hippies giving out flowers and aid money. “Turn the other cheeck” is not a Jewish idea. The L-RD demands that we destroy evil in order that kindness and civilization can live.
Jay,
You are absolutely right! There MUST be justice! Without justice, we cannot survive.
And as for the Muslim pirates hijacking yachts and ships, I am absolutely outraged that the ships and yachts are sent out as defenseless prey into the waiting arms of the cruel, barbaric enemies of humanity. All ships and yachts must be equipped with machine guns, rockets, rocket launchers and grenades.
Jay,
You are absolutely right! There MUST be justice! Without justice, we cannot survive. Turning the other cheek is definitely not the thing to do!
And as for the Muslim pirates hijacking yachts and ships, I am absolutely outraged that the ships and yachts are sent out as defenseless prey into the waiting arms of the cruel, barbaric enemies of G-D and humanity. All ships and yachts must be equipped with machine guns, rockets, rocket launchers and grenades.
The Muslim Brotherhood signed a contract agreeing to start an advertising campaign to convince Muslims that they each have an individual duty to murder every Jew on the face of the earth, and to re-conquer every square inch of land ever held by a muslim regime. That was the Hamas Covenant, and they’ve acted on it. This campaign has been in place for some time, and now, here, we have people whose main disagreement about what Islam is, depends on what they know as a result of this campaign.
I submit that if the Muslim Brotherhood wins the argument, Islam will perish. I don’t think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to win. Further, the sooner people of good will recognize the advertising campaign for what it is, and recognize its ill effects, the fewer Muslims will die because of it.
To Salim and Roger, thank you for writing and publishing this exchange. Between you, you represent several of the key values and viewpoints that must somehow be integrated into a vision with which we can move forward. Dr Jasser has been mentioned here and I hope that he will also enter into similar conversations.
I’m a post-Christian neo-gnostic (one who believes we can legitimately strive to know God) and my own vision is of a New Jerusalem, arising from a resolution of the Christian and Mohammedan conflict, a resolution which also recognises our ongoing need to sustain and uphold the Judaic roots of both religions. Those Judaic roots are today embodied not only in written texts and customs but in the living souls of today’s Jews, even the supposedly lapsed ones like Roger.
I see Islam – as many Islamic mystics saw it – as being like an almond with a sweet and nourishing kernel within a hard shell to be discarded. I see Islamism as that hard shell and I see Mansur and Jasser and many other “moderate” Muslims as people who are spiritually sensitive to the kernel and totally prepared to discard the shell.
And it will be the Islamic kernel that will rule the world, not the shell.
And this will disappoint both the Islamists and those many non-Muslims who hate Islam as a whole because they cannot see past the shell.
No matter our religious or cultural background, we all sin when we lose our sensitivity to the kernel of truth.
” And it will be the Islamic kernel that will rule the world, not the shell. ”
Bigotry exposed.
Yeah, like in that 1964 James Whitmore film, “Nuts Like Me”.
Right on, man.
I recently watched the movie, “Mars Attacks”. Anne, reading your loony comments, I honestly wondered if you’re from another planet.
Are you?
(Menachem, shalom!)
You should stop eating so many burritos.
And it will be the Islamic kernel that will rule the world, not the shell.
No, ‘Anne’ who links to her own post here via ‘her’ supposed moniker. You are a sh*t stirring idiot trying to get a rise out of people because you have nothing better to do with your pathetic life other than claiming you are an “Islamic Mystic”. Ohhhhhh impressive…most impressive…NOT.
Pardon me if I flush your high stinking bullsh*t back from whence it came and watch your pathetic post circle the drain into the oblivion it deserves.
Don’t let your burka trip you on the way out the door!
The exchange between you Roger and Salim clearly demonstrates how small is the distance between communism/progressivism, libertarianism and islam.
You forgot Zoroastrianism!
You ask: ? Can Islam really be reformed?
I am thinking you have not meant this a rhetorical question, in which case I am surprised by your innocence and lack of knowledge on the subject-
There are reasons Ali and Wafa are apostates and not reformers of Islam (beyond the obvious threat of death)
Wafa herself was on apanel where a person posed this question to her- BIDAh – look up “gates of itijhad”- the door to reform is firmly SHUT – changing any part of the Quran is forbidden (penalty death) under Sunni laws also forbidden to change even the hadith or sunnah – Islam denies reform-
Those who propose that – as pointed out by many here, if Islam would be “reformed” sufficiently to peaceful- most all of it would need to be thrown out- ALL OF ISLAM is a whole piece and all of it demands 100% submission to an ideology that defines us as “OTHER” and demands the destruction of this “OTHER” by whatever means necessary- promises highest rewards to those who accomplish the goal by killing-
What’s worse if anyone speaks or questions this they become enemies too- hence the huge amount of dead Muslims by each other’s hand- Muslims have killed more Muslims than Crusades,Israel wars and Iraq & Afghanistan combined-
Once upon a time I thought Islam was a religion too- I thought it was “Abrahamic” and thus connected to Judaism and Christianity- but I was very wrong- it DENIES those faiths explicitly- it changes the unchanged stories protected at cost of Jewish lives for 5000 years
and then there is Mohammed – any person, religious or not can see this person is not to be held as perfect example of anything except EVIL- pure evil- even Aisha questions his capriciousness, his ability to channel Allah’s word at will for any whim or desire of his own ego.
There ason Stanic VErses was such a CRIME and fatwqa was issued tthe author of this fiction book- it exposes MOhammed for a LIAR and charlatan- if he was fooled by Satan about the goddesses, it means he could not distinguish G-d’s voice from the Devil.
He was simply an opportunitst who used people by selling a new religion ion order to steal and conquer.
Simplyu put Islamis false religion, and as such deserves no respect as if it is one- it is also a miltaristic, imperialist, apartheid, racist ideology- and no one who professes to ISLAM can also be loyal to any Dar El Harb state- they may enter yor lands in order to destroy them by whatever means- by birth rate, by lawfare, by terror acts, by political influence. All theses seditious actions are ongoing in all our nations NOW- and the useful idiots insit on giving them more freedom to destroy us from inside.
I saw what I wished I never knew about islam – now it’s too late to pretend I didn’t see towers fall and the threats- who compared the times to WW2 was correct- many laughed at Hitelr and thought Nazism would just die out or thought they could contain it by giving land..
props to Menachem (as always) and Infidel Alliance
keep telling it like it is
“I am thinking you have not meant this a rhetorical question, in which case I am surprised by your innocence and lack of knowledge on the subject-
There are reasons Ali and Wafa are apostates and not reformers of Islam (beyond the obvious threat of death)”
With all due respect, you must be new here because that is an absurd misreading of our host who is clearly extremely aware of many reasons these women are apostates. Beyond that, making an incorrect assumption about someone and then going on to bash him incorrectly for paragraphs is unconscionably rude, not to mention atrocious writing
Oh, calm down, Nancy! It doesn’t strike me as “unconscionably rude” in the least. It’s just more vigorous discussion. With all due respect, of course.
Dear Muslims, it’s me, Delia [humbly]:
Firstly, I am a Christian but I don’t believe in organized “religions” and I believe the “church” of my heart exists in my mind and soul 24/7 (the place I pray to and speak to God on a daily basis for guidance and to simply LOVE him and to feel his love back ten-fold) and I don’t believe in “works” because you can’t ‘work’ your way out of ‘sin’ which is why Christ died for us so that we could be redeemed.
So, Muslims of all stripes, please answer me this:
Why does your “holy book” direct people to murder, to lie, to kill, rape, stone, enslave and to maim all in the name of your leader “Mohammad” and why do you support this directive to this day? Many of you ‘moderate Muslims’ say that the holy Qur’an has been corrupted by misrepresentation and misquoted to suit extremist ideologies, but, all it takes is a few looks into your holy book to see that this is simply untrue, you are directed to kill the infidel or at the very least to turn him/her into a dhimmi and you are to conquer the world with Islam with the sword or via subversive techniques and takkiya-filled two-faced lies and obfuscation.
Many of you are great at faux-compassion and even faux exasperation at your more ‘extreme’ brethren, but, you will never point the finger at Islam, you will slyly and very coyly blame anyone but yourself for the devastation and atrocities you bring to the West because the “West is decadent” as you righteously keep your women cloaked because many of your men are rapists, psychopaths, inbred back-sand idiots and cave-dwelling morons who masturbate at the mere sight of a female (even cloaked).
You tell me, Muslim men. What is more decadent? A man who can live in a decadent, highly sexual Western world with tons of gorgeous women rushing past him and he keeps his cool and controls his inner urges with pride and dignity, or a man or young boy who masturbates mindlessly as soon as even a fully cloaked woman dares to pass by in a public place amongst males?
The hand that rocks the cradle, is the one that rules the world. How foolish you Muslim males are to treat your women as chattel rather than the truest way of life from which you have sprung. I pity you all. I truly and genuinely do and I especially pity your wives and offspring because you will repeat your cycle of abuse until a mushroom cloud annihilates each and very one of you.
Your brothers and sisters of Israel will smite you because of your own backwards, low I.Q., mindless hate. Your hate is the pure antithesis to God’s pure and unadulterated LOVE and sacrifice.
May God have mercy when the time comes for you and it will…
I think you’re crazy.
I think your a precious snowflake full of promise with the faint whiff of curry and garlic breath. Aww.
BTW, Jamesy, you just ‘outed’ yourself as a Muslim because I was only addressing this post to Muslims.
Your takkiya is weak.
Welcome to the Matrix, I can see right through you…
Damn! And I thought I was being clever. However being outed by a racist and a bigot with a loose grasp on reality has its up side.
On the other hand the fact that a muslim accused me of Hasbara the other night on the “We are all Khaled Said” Facebook page has a leavening effect which unfortunately doesn’t really address the root cause of your madness.
You don’t know who I am now do ya? Wooooooo-oooooooooooo-ooooooooo!!!!
Eerie!
The Muslim Brotherhood is starting up the “Non-Discovery Channel”. Don’t miss that. Rather than having the fascinating programs we’re all used to about the history of cement or matches, they’ll provide us with scientific proof of the holiness of meteors and how crazy people are in fact sane. That last will have particular traction in your trailer park. Don’t forget to take the aluminum foil off the window – it interferes with the signal from the far depths of outer space.
Well this has been a very interesting conversation. From loving and warm to icy cold and confrontational. All for the good I hope.
As a parting gift for those who hold the pursuit of wisdom dear I offer some insight from one of my own teachers, Dr.Gerald Schroeder-
” There are any number of unanswerable, uncomfortable questions a person can ask, but the first one, the question from which all other questions are descended, is “Why is there an ‘is’?” Why is there existence in the first place? In our fascination with life’s origin and evolution, we bypass this most fundamental of conundrums. Does the very fact of existence in itself provide proof that some metaphysical non-thing. perhaps even the Godly, some undefined whatever-it-is, produced the physical by transcending it?
If we consider the finite aspects of the world we see around us, the limited nature of the time, space and matter from which we are constructed, the answer is certainly yes. Some non-thing, above or outside of the physical, must have preceded our universe or has our universe imbedded in it.
But what is the material world, that which frames the puzzle of our existence? Why even bother with the existence of empty space, or even time? The basic enigma is not whether we evolved from apes or not, but why is there “being” in the first place? The very existence of existence is mind boggling. Yet we are so much a part of existence that we take it for granted, it’s a “given,” to use a scientific term. But step back from the subjectivity and think about it. What caused the Big Bang? What caused existence? What is existence?
In his introduction to The Guide For The Perplexed, Moses Maimonides, the great 12th-century Jewish philosopher and codifier, laid the basis for probing these questions:
We must form a conception of the existence of the Creator according to our capacities; that is, we must have a knowledge of metaphysics (the science of God), which can only be acquired after the study of physics; for the science of physics is closely connected with metaphysics and must even precede it in the course of studies. Therefore, the Almighty commenced the Bible with the description of the creation, that is, with physical science.
One might conceive of a science without religion, but it is an oxymoron to conceive of religion without science. Revelation and nature are the two aspects of one creation. Yet in Maimonides’ time, the idea that science might have something to add to our understanding of spirituality was so anathema to the religious establishments that his book was burned by Jews and Christians alike.
Some 250 years ago, a great Jewish saint and mystic, the Gaon of Vilna, taught that when the light of Torah came into the world it split into two parts. Only one part was revealed directly, the prophetic experience The other part was hidden in the wisdoms of nature and the time will come, he said, when those hidden wisdoms will be discovered. revealing aspects of the Torah never before understood. That time has come. The hidden wisdoms of nature and science are being discovered. At the turn of the century, a physics professor would have lost tenure on the spot if caught teaching the concept that matter in all its forms of solids, liquids and gases was actually condensed energy. What hokum it would have seemed! Then came Einstein, relativity and E = mc^2, the theory that matter, m. intrinsically represents a specific amount of energy, E. And the type of matter was immaterial. As bizarre as it seems, a gram of rose petals and a gram of uranium contain identical amounts of energy. The constant in the equation, c^2 is the speed of light squared or multiplied by itself. It is a massive value, telling us that even a tiny amount of matter contains a huge quantity of latent energy. Having personally witnessed the detonation of six nuclear weapons. I suggest that we pray for peace. The fractions of a gram of matter converted into energy during those tests turned the mountain on which I stood into a quivering Jello-like substance. ”
http://geraldschroeder.com/About.aspx
Y’know, when I consider being the Almighty, the omnipresent and omniscient eternal Creator, it occurs to me that that must be one terribly and literally unfathomably lonely existence.
What would one do to pass the eternity?
We talk to ourselves. I reckon that the Lord might do the same, only His “imaginary” interlocutors become flesh and blood and awareness.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”-John 1:1
Kurt Godel, the greatest logician that ever lived, besides his famous two incompleteness theorems, had also produced another equally important theorem: that which proved the existence of a God-like structure for all to exist. He never got to formally publish this theorem, and it became a ’cause celebre’ after his death.
The points I want to make are these two: first, Godel proved (to the extent that anyone can “prove” anything beyond reasonable doubt by todays’ mathematical and scientific standards) that the Judeo-Christian Genesis stands and nothing can surpass its internal and external (religious that is) beauty and logic. The koran is a misguided attempt to copy it, and in that failed attempt lies its basic flaw.
And second, as a number of commenters have pointed out here and other articles of PJM and elsewhere, the moment that this Judeo-Christian notion of “God” leaves one’s mind, the West is losing one of its pillars on the way to moral and cultural ruin.
To imagine that the proliferation of nukes in a part of the world where ‘suicide by killing’ is both honored and revered is not going to come to a head is both naïve and pollyannaishly deadly.
The reckoning will come because nut-jobs have the bomb.
Be prepared.
Reply to ETAB:
It is the all-powerful G-D who said in the Bible that the Jews are His Chosen people. I suggest you argue with G-D about that, not Jews.
Many times I have read nasty comments made by Jew-haters about Jews being the Chosen People. Jews did NOT choose themselves! G-D did! If the Creator wanted to give Jews His famous Ten commandments and Laws and call them His Chosen People, our magnificent, perfect G-D has every right to do so!
This is why the “favorite” child is always the one most in danger of being slaughtered by his/her own siblings. Jealousy is evil and unfortunately a part of human nature unchecked.
God didn’t do that; God may have given Moses the Ten Commandments, and that’s all God did. The rest, Jews wrote about God and themselves.
Linda – you’ll have to first provide some evidence that god exists, and that the bible is a direct account of god’s words. Since you can’t do that, then your argument is specious and empty.
After all- Islamists can equally say that ‘god declares that we must kill all infidels!’ Are they right to abide by ‘our text, the Qur’an, says so’?
As for the distinction between the Jews choosing themselves as ‘chosen’ – I never said that. My comment refers only to the acceptance of the definition of ‘chosen’. What criteria validates that definition of ‘being chosen’? Menachim could only come up with ‘we follow dietary laws’ – and these are not in themselves unique to Jews nor do they justify ‘being chosen’.
ETAB,
You write: “first provide some evidence that god exists”. That’s very cool that you want to know if G-D exists!
The Koran does not contain any prophecy which was fulfilled.
Fulfilled prophecies in the Bible are absolutely huge in proving G-D’s existence and the TRUTH of the Bible! For any doubters, the large number of fulfilled prophecies are absolutely amazing!
There was a book written several years ago written by Josh McDowell, called ‘Evidence that Demands a Verdict’. He was an atheist and as a result of his studies into the existence of G-D, became a Christian!
I just checked on Amazon and there is now an updated book on that, plus you can buy the book used on Amazon. Amazon actually has three later books – all based on the first book. Hope that is helpful.
You write: As for the distinction between the Jews choosing themselves as ‘chosen’ – I never said that.
ETAB, PLEASE excuse me for that. Many people who make comments, imply that the Jews have selected themselves as chosen. The people commenting get very nasty about it.
Have a great weekend!
Linda – don’t get into invalid semantic twists.
I didn’t ask you to provide evidence that god exists because I want to believe in such an existence. I asked you to provide evidence, because your claim that ‘God said that the Jews are the chosen people’ requires, as a basic axiom, the existence of God. You have failed to provide proof of your basic axiom, and therefore, you claim is empty.
What fulfilled prophecies? The assertions in the various early texts are not predetermined but probabilistic with a 50-50 ratio. And, entirely open to subjective interpretation with as many ‘unfulfilled prophecies’. Since I totally and completely reject determinism in history, physics or biology – then, your deterministic world is, to me, pure fiction.
Have a nice day, ETAB!
Last comment before Shabbat, for someone who does not believe in ” determinism “-
” The most significant aspect of the establishment of the state of Israel is the fact that Jews through the ages knew it was to come. ”
Rabbi Eliezer Berkovits, Faith after the Holocaust
I suspect that you are too confortable with your preconceptions to do anything other than scoff at your opponents. A real discussion doesn’t seem possible. But, don’t insult our intelligence with absurd statistics about a 50 percent validity of Biblical prophesies, because you know you pulled that number out of a hat. Can you provide a list of prophesies from the Hebrew Bible that did not come true? There are a few, and they can be explained.
Menachem refered indirectly to the biblical prophesy that after a lengthy and bitter exile, a remnant of the Jews would return to our land and re-establish our national sovereignty, near the end of days. So, the prophesy of national restoration has been fulfilled. Admittedly, the accompanying Messianic prophesy has not yet been realized, but we are patiently waiting.
I believe you were being honest when wrote that you are not looking to be convinced of the existence of a creator. It also seems that you have feeling of jealousy towards the “chosen people.” This jealousy is usually the root of anti-semitism.
Jews believe in the creator for various reasons, historical and philosophical. My basic historical understanding is as follows. Our Israelite ancestors experienced the Exodus, and passed along that knowledge as an unbroken tradition throughout the generations. There is no alternate history for the origins of the Israelites. They heard and saw G-d’s voice at Mount Sinai, and that is why the nation of Israel can never forget. Had some leader come along after the fact, and passed along a “Torah” that conflicted with the people’s own oral history, they would have rejected that leader and his text/laws. Over the centuries, Jews have scrupulously maintained the integrity of our religious texts.
Wow, what an elegant circular argument. Groucho Marx couldn’t have come up with a better one than that.
I would never be a member of a religion that would have me as a member is the closest I guess.
Heh – right. I like your membership analogy. That’s all I get when I try to debate with Menachem and Linda. Petitio principii or circular ‘reasoning’. And when I point out the logical errors – what’s the result? More examples using the same fallacies of argument. Ah well.
First rule about Scrotus Maxium Club:
Nobody talks about Scrotus Maximus Club!
Now, you and Etab hose each other down, Jamesy…Etab can grab your belt-loop for the rest of the day and be your prison bitch.
You two make such a kewt kupple!
Always nice to meet a real lady and hear first hand (if sparse) details about prison life.
Oh, James, “lady” is as much a societal construct as “gentleman” and since you are no gentleman and I am no lady (by quite a stretch evennnnnn), your flame is summarily snuffed.
Feel free to call me anything you wish but never call me a “lady” because that will always be an insult to what I consider a person who doesn’t limit herself to her genitalia and hormones. Color me crazy again too…your opinions and love for Islam is all I need to know about your brand of whackadoodle.
Any country that takes in Muslim immigrants does so at their great peril. Muslim culture and belief systems are radically opposite from the values and ideals of Western civilization.
WorldNetDaily: …answering the desires expressed by Muslims in Somalia and bringing thousands into the United States.
The result? Violence and social conflict is on the rise where large groups have settled in Minneapolis; Seattle; Nashville; Shelbyville, Tenn.; Garden City, Kan.; Emporia, Kan.; St. Louis and Greeley, Colo.
In Somalia, Muslims periodically behead Christians simply for being Christian.
‘President Obama has issued a determination letter to Congress that will permit an additional 80,000 refugees to come to the U.S. – mostly from Muslim countries. According to Obama, the importation of Somalis and other refugees into the U.S. is “justified by humanitarian concerns or is otherwise in the national interest.”
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=263813
By importing Muslims, the Obama administration is well aware of the suffering and violence that will be perpetrated against peaceful, law-abiding Americans. This is no longer a government of the people, by the people and for the people.
European and UK governments are fully aware of the many no-go Muslim areas in their countries. Areas too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter. In some areas, ambulances require police car escorts; the hate for non-Muslims is so fierce. The alarming and immoral response of the European/UK governments is to continue importing Muslims and persecuting and prosecuting the courageous Europeans and Brits who speak out
Dutch Reporter: Immigrants Seeking Asylum in Europe Linked to Security Problems, Intimidation of Christians, Jews
by IPT News • Dec 9, 2010
In Holland, Christian asylum seekers have been subjected to intimidation, even violent attacks by other Muslim asylum seekers. One Iraqi Christian woman was forced into hiding after several Muslims attacked her and threw her from her bike. Another Christian asylum seeker was thrown down a flight of stairs. In another case, a Muslim couple which converted to Christianity was threatened and intimidated by Muslims inside an asylum center.
In fact, a survey taken of 28 of the 59 asylum centers in Holland showed that about one third of Christian asylum seekers are the victims of physical violence. 75% of those surveyed said that they knew asylum seekers who have been subjected to discrimination because they are Christian or formerly Muslim.
Jews have also been the victims of persecution by these immigrants to Europe.
http://www.investigativeproject.org/blog/2010/12/dutch-reporter-immigrants-seeking-asylum-in
The dreams of a life lived without constant fear is being destroyed in Europe. Who will protect the Christian asylum seekers from the Muslim asylum seekers? But it is not only the lives of Christian asylum seekers that are being destroyed.
Sweden is being destroyed. A low intensity civil war has already started. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QILt8mnZnMs&feature=related
Will SWEDEN’S SUFFERING be America’s future?
BERLIN POLICE UNDER SIEGE FROM MUSLIMS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RJElADFXyQ&feature=player_embedded
“At this point, call me a skeptical agnostic who has reached an age where he desperately wishes he could have faith and believe in an afterlife.”
Evidence for the afterlife:
http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/summary_of_evidence
Nobel prize winning scientists who validated paranormal phenomena:
http://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/eminent_researchers
The problems faced by this nation are not, political, economic, religious, educational, or anything else. The problem is spiritual in nature. RELIGION is not a solution. Actually religion is a major part of the problem. In the end, everything will come down to one statement made by Jesus of Nazareth:
“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” It was recorded in two of the four Gospels, Matthew 12:30 and again in Luke 11:23. You will bow the knee to the One True G0D of the Bible or you will bow to a false god.
Although raised in a “christian” home, I professed Atheism as a twenty-something. On serious examination, I realized that to state that there was NO god, I would have had to looked EVERYWHERE for Him.
No could do.
So I started referring to myself as an Agnostic. Then a friend pointed out that a gnostic was a wise one and placing the “a” before reversed the meaning. My pride made that out of the question.
I was driven to faith in the Bible, because unless, and until, you view history as HIS story, nothing really makes any sense. Stuart McAllister has written, “According to Will Durant, “The greatest question of our time is not communism vs. individualism, not Europe vs. America, not even the East vs. the West; it is whether men can bear to live without God.” McAllister then asks, “Can we know that God is real? I believe the answer is yes, but on God’s terms, not ours.”
The solution lies in that last sentence.
The truth is out there. Dearborn is an example in America. Europe is an example overseas. Living proof that “An addition of Muslims to a Nation is a subtraction in civilization”.
American Christian Infidel
Michael Canzano