In the Wake of Mumbai: An Agnostic Jew Considers Chabad
And that’s the point. Chabadniks really are religious Jews in the best sense. Whether we admit it or not, Reform Jews from my background are hardly religious at all. It’s more of a social club. There’s nothing wrong in that, of course, as long as you are honest about it. But it should give a hint why the Chabadniks are more mainstays in the War on Terror than Reform Jews whose values and views often veer more towards John Kerry than Moshe Dayan.
Which leads me to the topic of the hour – Mumbai. It’s clear the young Lubavitcher couple murdered by the terrorists, Rabbi Gavriel Holzberg and his wife Rivka, were the finest of human beings. They were dedicated to promoting goodness in the world in the deepest spiritual sense. They wished only the best for all humanity and also did their best to encourage it, in fact gave their lives for it. You don’t have to believe in G-d or even God to understand that. Their horrifying deaths reminded this agnostic that there is indeed something called evil in the world.
So now what do I do? What, indeed, do we all do?
UPDATE: The Times of India and other sources are reporting the terrorists did thorough reconnaissance of the Mumbai Chabad Center in advance of their action, apparently staying there disguised as Malaysian students, no doubt under the good offices of the Holzbergs. Somebody should tell the New York Times who, as of this writing, is still reporting the Jewish center as an “unlikely target.” In fact, at first the Times seemed to disbelieve the center could have been a target at all. But that’s no surprise. They have missed Jewish target stories, even the most important ones, in the past:
The reason is that the American media in general and the New York Times in particular never treated the Holocaust as an important news story. From the start of the war in Europe to its end nearly six years later, the story of the Holocaust made the Times front page only 26 times out of 24,000 front-page stories, and most of those stories referred to the victims as “refugees” or “persecuted minorities.” In only six of those stories were Jews identified on page one as the primary victims.
Nor did the story lead the paper, appearing in the right-hand column reserved for the day’s most important news – not even when the concentration camps were liberated at the end of the war. In addition, the Times intermittently and timidly editorialized about the extermination of the Jews, and the paper rarely highlighted it in either the Week in Review or the magazine section. [bold mine]
As the saying goes, the more things change, the more they remain the same.
Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. Let’s hope that does not hold true for the NY Times as a business.
I wish you the best of luck on your spiritual quest. I’m a Lutheran Christian but have a Jewish uncle for whom his faith has been life-changing, and he’s an inspirational witness to believers and nonbelievers alike.
Overall, a good article but I disagree with your assessment that Chabadniks are religious Jews in the best sense. As a woman, I’m offended by the accepted subservience of females in this culture and the lack of freedom to express themselves in ways outside of the restrictive roles written for them.
Did you catch this article about CNN reporting at the Taj hotel during the terrorist attack?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2140568/posts
I’m not a particularly observant Jew, but I am always aware that I am a Jew. That’s the problem with too many secular Jews. They forget that they are Jewish. The problem is that while they may not consider themselves to be Jews, our enemies do and don’t particularly care if or when the despised Jews was a shul. In fact, they might just hate them all the more because they aren’t observant.
We should never forget who our enemies are, for assuredly they never forget who we are.
I had a very positive experience in my only direct interaction with Chabad. It was a group in Vancouver, Washington. My family and I were in Vancouver in April of this year, as my father was dying. After my father died, I was looking for a synagogue at which to say kaddish. After some confusion, we were directed to a business park, where a Chabad was located. I didn’t know the first thing about what I was walking into (hey, I’m a convert; what can I say!).
We walked in, and the Friday evening services were just finished, and they were eating their meal. The Rabbi walked up to us and asked if he could help. I explained that I wanted to say kaddish for my recently deceased father, and everyone immediately stopped what they were doing. He pulled out his prayer book, held it open for me and my wife, and the entire group said kaddish with us. it was truly one of the most moving experiences I’ve ever had. They didn’t know us from Adam, but were willing to take the time to tend to a stranger in pain.
I hope the Chabad in Mumbai who are left are able to lift themselves above this. The peace they advocate and the love they express are so necessary in this world. To have that be snuffed out would be a victory for the terrorists.
And, my wife, who is about as lovey-dovey a 60s peacenik as they come, was spitting-mad furious when she heard about what happened in Mumbai. I think she’s finally getting a sense of the implacable hatred the Islamofascists feel towards us all.
Chabadniks are not religious Jews in the best sense. They are drunks and extremists.
Citizen 70, I certainly agree about your view on women and CHabad. A black mark indeed. But curiously sometimes they seem to be much more open about women. Perhaps a change is inthe offing – strange as that may seem. Or perhaps, as is so often true in life, it depends on the person.
Citizen70,
“As a woman, I’m offended by the accepted subservience of females in this culture and the lack of freedom to express themselves in ways outside of the restrictive roles written for them.”
Obviously, you really don’t know much about ChaBaD…I’m an orthodox (convert, as is my wife) jew, and I live in a mixed orthodox/hassidic/reform neighborhood. I, frankly don’t know ANY subservient women/wives. Most ortho wives, quite literally, rule the home. In many of the hassidic homes…the “man of the house” doesn’t even have a house key, as the home is the province of the wife (and belongs to her)…imagine that.
Additionally, behind every good rabbi, stands a rebbitzin (wife of a rabbi) who is far, far more that the mother of his children, and keeper of his hearth. You should perhaps learn more about that which you condemn…and not hide behind a pseudonym.
Rich Vail,
Pikesville, MD
Amem Mr. Vail!!
FWIW.
A story.
Once upon a time, and a very good time it was, I was an agnostic Catholic, a young lawyer in Brooklyn.
Driving along the BQE one day in a car loaded with friends (on the way to Peter Luger’s for a political lunch) we passed under the overpass in Williamsburg. The street above was filled with young Hasidic families. They were Satmar, I’m sure, because it was Williamsburg. All my friends were Jewish and secular. We were all active Democrats, some elected officials, and had grown up together. (One of my friends represented the young Hasids walking above, but he was an agnostic.) I made an admiring comment about the young and large families (I was, after all, an agnostic Irish Catholic). One of my friends wistfully said, “You know, there will be a Judaism in a hundred years because of these guys, not because of me.”
I always remembered that comment.
Today, I’m no longer agnostic and, sadly in a way, no longer a Democrat. My friend? He became baal teshuva because of the Chabad outreach in Brooklyn Heights.
God bless them, this lovely young couple were on the front lines in the struggle against evil and they paid a terrible price.
Bottom line about Mumbai and wars in general is that if you can’t or won’t defend yourself from forces like those just displayed in Mumbai you won’t keep your freedom.
Recent reports today say that many of the dead were tortured, but that the the Jewish dead had been subjected to such horrific torture that even the hardened and experienced medical teams that performed their autopsies were shaken and haunted by what they had seen, and refused to talk in any detail about it, lest they have to relive it.
No doubt the Muslim terrorist’s torture of these Jews reflected Muhammad’s special hatred for the Jews of Mecca and Medina, who mocked him and his unlettered pretense of erudition and a prophetic mission 1,400 years ago, a special hatred of Jews that permeates the Qur’an, Hadiths and Sira and the Islam that springs from them.
These are the kinds of Muslim enemies that we have to deal with, rabid dogs that need to be put down mercilessly for all our sakes, and not reasoned or negotiated with, or whose view-points and demands need to be “appreciated” and “accommodated.”
Wow. I’m a fallen Catholic trying to find my way back to God. I grew up in a very heavily Jewish neighborhood in NYC (upper west side), and my best memories of neighbors and friends were the Jewish people I grew up with. They showed me the most love and care that I could have ever expected. While they were for the most part reform Jews, the high holy days were exceptional experiences for me. My heart grieves, my soul grieves for the Jews tortured and murdered in India, and for all the others murdered. Why, oh why, does God keep allowing this to happen to his Chosen? Men and Women of good will must unite to end this. The world, I worry, will not survive if islam is allowed to go unchecked.
Was a part of Chabad for many years. Co-ran a Chabad House (though I’m secular now). My kids are Chabad rabbis and ‘rabbi-ettes’. They’ve been all over the world (like the Holtzbergs, of blessed memory) to work, volunteer, teach and study. WHat happened feels very close to home.
To clear up a point regarding women in traditional orthodox judaism (of which Chabad is just a part): The male-female relationships are quite egalitarian, as a matter of fact, and many, if not most of the women work outside the home. If they don’t it is a matter of choice. The men can be found diapering babies and washing dishes on a regular basis. I know of what I speak – I lived it and my kids live it. What the previous poster is referring to negatively are the standard jewish orthodox observances regarding women’s dress (modest) and ritual roles in the synagogue (nonexistent). However, orthodox women (and Chabad is a standout in this area) are quite powerful and outspoken. Anyone who has spent any degree of time ‘up close and personal’ would know this. It is quite striking. I remember my first contact with Chabad women (actually it was girls) as a young feminist of about sixteen. I was so struck by how confident and outspoken these girls were that I mentioned it to one of them. I will never forget her answer. She said to me (in a slightly sharp tone) ‘don’t put us on a pedestal. Judaism may be perfect, but we are just human beings’. It was good advice that I remembered for years. No, the Chabadniks are not perfect, men or women, but those who (like my kids, and like the Holtzbergs of blessed memory) choose to live far away to bring pride and education to other jews are pretty high caliber human beings in general. You may have an argument with the rules of orthodoxy – and this is understandable – but don’t cast aspersions on the power level of orthodox (and particularly Chabad) women, because you would be largely incorrect. Been there. Lived it. Know what I’m talking about.
I’m not a practicing Jew at all. Although I would never say I wasn’t a Jew. House looks very Christmassy today thanks to my Episcopalian wife.
Chabad story. About four years ago on a Saturday morning I was picking up some work at my embroiderers in Burbank. She was a few store fronts down from the local Chabad. I asked my embroiderer if she want to join me for a coffee and donut about a block away. Sure why not. As we were sitting there a young woman comes up to us and asks me if I was Jewish. Yes I was. Well, we need one more for a minyan so that we can conduct a service. I was sitting there in cargo shorts, deck shoes no socks and probably a tee shirt. Nice sweat stained baseball cap on my head. I said, sure but dressed like this. She said it didn’t matter. So this slob walks in and everyone greeted me and didn’t spend one second worrying about what I wore. At the end for the prayers for the dead, they even helped me in honoring my mother. It was well done.
They are good people and do good work and work hard to get get secular Jews to become more of a participant.
Me, well, I like honey baked ham too much at Christmas dinner.
Yasher Koach, Roger. I too have had many positive experiences with Chabad, despite my differences with them regarding women’s roles and some other matters. But I have been very impressed by their hospitality, their willingness to be challenged, the many wonderful discussions I participated in with Chabniks and secular Jews and the service they performed for the communities where I lived at various times. Never once did I feel pressured to become a Lubavitcher or even Orthodox. Some Chabadniks–as with any group–are not exemplary human beings, but most that I met were.
OT but I notice this more on here and trying to figure it out. No 21 writes what you wrote with a link. The link goes to a blog, as the others do. But the blog just links back to the original posting. Am I missing something or is there some great meaning in that No 21.
But it should give a hint why the Chabadniks are more mainstays in the War on Terror than Reform Jews whose values and views often veer more towards John Kerry than Moshe Dayan.
Israeli Chabadniks dodge the draft, so they can be hardly described as sharing Moshe Dayan views.
Actually, Israeli Chabadniks do NOT dodge the draft, although the young men are encouraged to spend a year or two in upper-level Torah study before doing the army. When they enter the IDF they are more mature, and less likely to be overly influenced by their sometimes rabidly secular peers. It is the more reclusive ultra-Orthodox sects who refuse to have their sons serve, and of course, there is also the anti-Israel Neturei Karta sect which relies on the IDF for general protection, but has a “foreign minister” to represent them to the Palestinian Authority.
#16 Wolla Dalbo, could you provide links to those reports that the dead and especially the Jews were tortured? I have not seen that in any of the news sources. Not that what happened wasn’t horrific enough, but in fact, precisely because it was so horrific, I think we need to be very factual.
Colette, try Pat Dollard and Rediff India Abroad for those stories.
Or google ‘mumbai jews torture’ & get 2000-plus items
**************
Promoguy,
#21 shows that ‘Temunot & Stuff’ blog has permalinked this article. If you click the ‘home’ tab on T & S page showing this article, you’ll get all the items of T & S blog in addition to this one. By linking back to the Roger’s original PJM article, the blogger can have lots of links & not fill the blogsite with complete copies of everything that’s mentioned there.
Great way to surf to new sites you’d never have known about before they linked to something you were reading. That’s the link-web that gives the Internet the name (world wide) Web.
Colette, I don’t know about the quality of this news source, but I saw it here:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/30mumterror-doctors-shocked-at-hostagess-torture.htm
Hollywood always had an ambivalent relationship with the Jews. I first learned about it when I saw “Enemies The Love Story” promoted as a “hilarious comedy”. Things seem to have remained stable since then.
Julio
The Chabadniks are like the Salvation Army among the Jews. They go everywhere and reach out to everyone. They do much good work. Here in Israel no one has to pay any attention to religion, it’s for someone else, but these guys don’t irritate anyone like many of the ultra-Orthodox who are dedicated to having their boys dodge the draft as a matter of principal.
Were they grow into a much much larger group, I think there would be big trouble though. They’ve elevated their late rebbe into a demigod and their beliefs have started to take on the character of a separate religion entirely. Since nothing happens that quickly among Jews, even the Karaites are still more or less in the fold after centuries of controversy, this won’t be a problem in the foreseeable future. But many who do take religion seriously steer clear of them.
#25 Collete,
Here’s you link from the Spectator in the UK, becuase it’s not “all the news that’s fit to print” you’ll not see it mentioned in the NY Times, WaPo or LA Times:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3052171/the-war-against-civilisation.thtml
#25 Colette
Here’s a link:
Doctors shocked at hostages’s torture
Krishnakumar P and Vicky Nanjappa in Mumbai
Rediff India Abroad
November 30, 2008
“The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: “Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks…. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,” he said.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/30mumterror-doctors-shocked-at-hostagess-torture.htm
Thanks to all who responded to my post regarding women in Chabad. I was raised in a religious Jewish family and ultimately left the organized religion partly because of how women were viewed and treated. This has improved in some sects of Judaism and I appreciate those who know Chabad intimately explaining that it is different there as well. I hope so. Richard Vail – I know of what I speak about Orthodox Judaism. You are not a woman and so do not understand what it means to not want to rule the household if that’s not your thing, and to feel that you cannot lead a prayer or minyan if that’s what you want to do, or be told that you were created not from G-d, but from Adam’s rib – in other words, somehow less perfect than a man. Chabad does great work around the world and any group committed to peace should be respected for that.
Citizen70 – I couldn’t disagree more. Women in Chabad are very bright and well-educated. Many of them can be seen leading study groups – yes, for women only. But they are out in the workforce as well. And here is a woman who really stands out:
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/7137/edition_id/134/format/html/displaystory.html
//Cuisine is not Chabad’s long suit//
Are you kidding? You must venture around! We’ve enjoyed MANY great meals prepared by the wives of many great Chabad rabbis.
Remember Citizen70 – there are two stories of the creation of ‘man.’ The first “God created them – male and female.” It is the second story that has Eve created from the rib of Adam. I don’t know how these two stories get reconciled. But they are both there. So, pick the first! And find yourself a good Conservative Beit Knesset where women are called to the Torah. Actually – here in Israel – in Jerusalem – there are egalitarian Orthodox Batei Knesset.
Interesting equation that to be modern is to be sympathetic. All the evidence points in the other direction. But the main thing is to be forward looking, I guess.
you are right Mr. Simon. Chabad is generally a wonderful community that treats all people with dignity. I don’t know any group of Jews who are more spiritual. Thanks for telling the truth about them. My grandfather was a secular Jew, but would give to all Jewish charities and he would give to Chabad without a second thought. It is time we gave this group some respect.
(p.s. my dad Roger H Simon of Scarsdale High says hello)
How come so many friends and others whose paths I crossed have a thing against Judaism because of the “organized religion” thing? Judaism is not an organized religion. We are a disorganized religion!
As to a woman’s role in orthodox Judaism; I am no expert and one should always do ones own learning, but I grew up in “modern” orthodoxy where our immersion in real life lead many to have highlighted for them how much women were not permitted to do. What I wasn’t taught, and what must have been missed by many others was that many of the things men did and women didn’t were a requirement placed on men of which women were free. Much of that is because women have been seen as much more spiritual than men, and to compensate men have been given more rituals to follow.
Citizen70
Full disclosure: I’m an evangelical Christian, but my view on the rib thing: If the Creator had created two separate beings, we’d be arguing that women weren’t even ‘human’. As the corny/beautiful statement goes: Woman was not created from the head, to rule over man, nor from the feet, to be under him, but from this side, to stand next to him, from under his arm to be protected by him, and from next to his heart, to be loved by him.
We are not insular beings, but are completed only by our mates, or by God. Distortions in this relationship are our fault.
My $.02.
BTW, evangelical Christian does not = Replacement Theology (where the church replaces Israel) just wanted to be clear.
to Citizen70,
what you describe as normative teachings about women in Judaism is the opposite of what I have been exposed to. Rebbetzin Heller teaches about why and how women have an equally important, but different role. You should look into her books or her classes at naaleh.com.
All the Jews I know voted for Barack Obama.
Mumbai was a shot across the bow at the weak Obama. The 78% of Jews who voted for Obama can take great pride in their vote.
Not.
Sadly, most of my coreligionists worship at the alter of liberalism as opposed to Judaism.
Thanks for the links, everyone. It seems as though every one of them is from a single source, the Rediff India article. And there is a fair amount of confusion, because the statements are from two anonymous doctors, not from the ZAKA team. There are conflicting reports as to when the various hostages were killed as well. I certainly would not be shocked to learn that the terrorists committed acts of torture and atrocities on the Jewish victims. They have done such things many times before. But again, I believe that we must stick to the known facts. If there was indeed torture, we need to get that info out into the media. It is the sort of thing that mobilizes people to demand action. But if it didn’t happen, we only play into the hands of the enemy by claiming that it did. Because then, the focus will be on false claims instead of on the horror that these Islamists perpetrated.
In my neighborhood the Chabad lied their way into a local house and now have taken over. They routinely fill the neighborhood up every weekend and cause all kinds of problems. We all want them to go away. They are arrogant, rude and don’t care at all about any local laws or the people who ere here when they arrived. We find them deceitful and willful liars. Shameful.
Colette, I’m willing to believe that since it seemed there were beheadings as these bastards prepared their landings, that torture would not be beyond what Islamofacists are capable of doing. I feel no compunction in giving them the benefit of doubt. If the Rediff article turns out to be incorrect, well so we’ll see that their actions were not so bad.
If you are a decent human being you can NEVER play into their hands. They are in general terms not nice and specifically pure evil.
I was following various links and ended up reading an article in English published in the Pakistani Times. They, of course, blame an international conspiracy for the attacks and claim it was orchestrated and paid for by the C.I.A. and the Mossad. Need any more proof that the Muslims are crazy and will never accept responsibility for the murder and mayhem they perpetrate?
Promoguy, of course they are capable of torture. I said that very clearly. But of course decent people play into their hands all the time, unintentionally of course. For you to suggest otherwise is ridiculously naive. The Islamists traffic in lies and rumors and distortions. They hide the nature of their true intentions and acts all the time. The only way to defeat them and their ideology is to be scrupulously accurate and truthful. To completely expose their sickening acts. Otherwise, they use the excuse of one inaccuracy to strengthen their bogus Islamophobia charges in the international world. It’s a mult-pronged strategy and it’s been frighteningly successful so far. We have to be smarter and better.
Colette, I might be a lot of things, but let there be no mistake. One thing I am not is naive when it comes to Islamofacists.
And quite frankly I don’t understand your comments, naive or otherwise. Who has it been successful with, the UN other terrorists.
One evening, across the street from Cantor’s, a group of Lubavitchers were on an entertaining outreach program – and from the back of an old pickup truck no less! Lots of singing, lots of dancing and lots of happiness. I’m not Jewish, but I did have the pleasure of dancing along. L’chaim is truly their motto.
A nice well considered touching story until we get to “But it should give a hint why the Chabadniks are more mainstays in the War on Terror than Reform Jews whose values and views often veer more towards John Kerry than Moshe Dayan.” which is a complete non sequitor”
I have had many experiences in Israel with Chabad and I can honestly say that they would give ANYONE, regardless of religion, the shirt of their backs. I remember seeing a Moslem woman at one of their services and she was treated like everyone else was. Can you imagine how a Chabadnik would be treated at a Mosque? As for the comment about women being secondary….where have you been? We are secondarly in every aspect of society.
Ladies and gentlemen: thanks for your thoughtful comments and remarks. I grieve for those who were murdered and tortured in Bombay for their faith. What I have experienced throughout my life, and which informs and supports my beliefs, is that faithful people live their faith. Including shirts off backs, prayers in time of pain and help to those who need. They are faithful because they put God above themselves, God’s laws above man’s preferences. While I am Christian, I am deeply respectful of those who study Torah: because in the best of cases they act from the faith that it is possible to live God’s law, even if it is difficult to discern. And it is worthwhile to work to discern.
Human discernment may lead to human errors – how folks view the roles they should and do live in their earthly lives for example. But they live the faith that following God’s law is the goal. Slaughtering Jews and Christians to further Islam is a human goal, just as Islam evolved as a political ideology to justify conquering territory and submission, not from a belief in God.
Promoguy
The entire world is naive when it comes to understanding the cunning of those who have only one aim towards “Freedom of Religion” & this is “Terrorism”
and we will only eradicate their abillities if we join together in being accurate when we publish information concerning the treachery that is happening around the world. Unless we open our eyes to our past errors in reporting stories that turn out to be false and learning how they come back to haunt us
we allow them to conquer and achieve. What is so wrong with Colette wanting to make sure the stories coming out are factual before we all around the world accept from one source, don’t we here in our country criticize our papers and media when they report inadequatly? ” Better to be “RiGHT THAN WRONG”, or “SAFE THAN SORRY”.
From your line “One thing I am not is naive to Islamofascist” it leads me to wonder what has been your connection to be so possitive regarding same.?
Have a peaceful evening & week.
It’s generally better to believe in something than to believe in nothing.
#17 John: Try reading “God and the World” by [then] Cardinal Ratzinger (Ignatius Press, 2002). You may not agree with a lot of it (I don’t), but you’ll find a lot of food for thought about God and the Catholic faith. The book has impressed me mightily, and I don’t impress easy. (Used copies on Amazon are about $3.)
Scott
Every time I munch into a toasted, buttered, sesame seed bagel I give thanks
for the Jewish immigrants who introduced this simple delight into America.
As for the contributions of murderous islamic terrorists?— they spill blood via vitriolic hatred and spread misery via toxic fanaticism. We remember the Rabbi Holtzman and wife by their good fruits….the rotten putrid acts of terrorists killers will be purged from history by our Redeemer.
“Their horrifying deaths reminded this agnostic that there is indeed something called evil in the world.” (Roger L. Simon)
Indeed, confronting the specter of evil is a very difficult thing for an agnostic. It explains the excruciatingly paralyzing stupor the secular west shows in responding to and dealing righteously with evil that is facilitating its growth through coddling complacency.
WH Auden describes his conversion back from the trendy Marxism and agnosticism of his day, when he walked into a theater, and during the intermission newsreels, a story about Jews in Europe came on and everytime a Jew was shown on the screen, many people in the theater (it was in the U.S.) would scream “Kill the Jews!” The abject mindless banality of evil is what made him run back to the God of his fathers. He wrote about it in this poem:
In “A Thanksgiving,” written near the end of his life, Auden describes his slow conversion to religion:
Finally, hair-raising things
That Hitler and Stalin were doing
Forced me to think about God.
Why was I sure they were wrong?
Wild Kierkegaard, Williams and Lewis
Guided me back to belief.
There is no other sane way to recognize and assimilate the existence of evil and to righteously deal with it.
Citizen70
I trust that you regularly go to Islamic sites and protest the infinitely worse treatment of women by Muslims?
Vorpal
Oh yea…that theater was in NYC. I wonder whether a few editorialists or editors from the Grey Witch were in that audience that night.
@57 Anita Hope – “From your line “One thing I am not is naive to Islamofascist” it leads me to wonder what has been your connection to be so possitive regarding same.?”
If Promoguy will excuse me throwing in my two cents here I think you’re misreading him. He’s not being “positive” about Islamofascism at all. Colette suggested he was naive, and he responded by assuring her he wasn’t. I’ve read some of his posts elsewhere and I’ll vouch for that. You seem to be insinuating something with the word “connection” though I could be wrong about that, of course. You have a nice evening and week too.
BMoon – Your post brought to mind other words of Auden’s –
“Intellectual disgrace
Stares from every human face
And the seas of pity lie
Locked and frozen in each eye”
True enough in our own time as well. As are your words regarding the only sane response to evil.
Chabad does a lot of good in Jewish communities, but they are not unproblematic.
Their biggest problem is the belief held by a substantial portion of the group that their late rebbe Menachem Schneerson is the messiah who will be resurrected, despite spending the last 15 years at ambient temperatures, to begin the apocalypse. This of course puts Schneerson in a group with Jesus of Nazareth and Shabbti Tzvi, and is at odds with all other Jewish groups, Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist. It is unclear to outsiders how many Chabadnik’s hold this belief, but it is doubtful that more than a minority are completely opposed.
Here is an excellent, if scary, article on the problem: “The Lubavitcher Rebbe as a god” Ha’aretz by Saul Sadka in Ha’aretz on 12/02/2007
How can someone be an agnostic Jew? Doesn’t that just make you an agnostic?
I was raised Catholic but don’t really believe in God now. Does that make me an agnostic Catholic?
marymcl,
I am not insinuating at all, I am asking. In my many years experience I have learned vouching for someone that you are not connected with on a personal basis is gambling, but this is just my opinion. Please explain if he is “not being positive” and he is “not naive” what is he saying in your opinion? i still feel it is important to make sure of the facts before accepting one persons story regarding same.
Again, have a peaceful week
“How can someone be an agnostic Jew? Doesn’t that just make you an agnostic?”
Well, Luke, good question. And here’s your answer in one word: Hitler. He didn’t care whether a Jew was an agnostic, an atheist, ultra-Orthodox, reformed or what he was. He was still a Jew and got sent to Auschwitz for extermination.
Same behavior for most of the other putrid anti-Semites in history. So, I’m a Jew, Luke, no matter what my religious beliefs or lack thereof. You better believe it. I know I do.
And I can tell you something else. When Daniel Pearl got his head lopped off in Karachi, the religious psychopaths who did it didn’t ask whether Danny was a theist or an atheist. He was a Jew to them.
Any other questions?
I do not know what torture was visited upon the Holzbergs or their guests at the Chabad House, but I am sickened that the truth will never be told.
I can tell you what has been the custom of Muslim “warriors” for hundreds of years: Removal of eyes, ears, heads, hands, and feet. Genitals are a favorite: they are removed either before or after death and shoved into the mouth.
See Walter Laqueur’s book on No End to War pages 43-44 for a complete description. He notes that these practices were perpetrated to instill fear into those living humans who would find the dead bodies.
In modern times, 2002, this is precisely what was done to Koby Mandel, a fourteen year old who walked a short distance with a friend from his home in Efrat, Israel. No one will mention the insane disfigurement to prevent having the images arise in his parents’ and friends’ minds as they contemplate their loss.
Wouldn’t “18th century suits” be frock coats, knee-breeches and stockings?
Just being picky. I do think your point about your “Jewishness” is well-taken, as I doubt that Islamic fanatics would inquire of a lapsed Methodist how often she goes to church. If you would really like to sow some truth, let me suggest registering as a commenter on SFGate, the San Francisco Chronicle online presence. Just reading the comments will introduce you to a whole new depth of equivalence thinking, and you can tell the truth for free. Thanks for the piece.
Fat Man,
There is only a portion of the Lubavitcher group who hold odd beliefs regarding The Rebbe. This belief has created a deep rift in the movement. I don’t know the numbers but it may be a large minority who still consider The Rebbe as a possible Moshiach. All I do know is that whatever Chabadnicks I’ve met, be they in Thailnd, Beijing, Sacramento, many in LA, and on the road, none of them hold The Rebbe as The Moshiach now that he has passed.
23. Joseph Hindin said:
“Israeli Chabadniks dodge the draft, so they can be hardly described as sharing Moshe Dayan views.”
So, Olmert’s kids did a bunk and skipped the draft, and he was a Likudnik.
Rob De Witt- these same types commented on NPR (national public radio) regarding an article suggesting that evil exists and all these terrorists really have no motives – they are simply evil. a flurry of posts.
america, of course, was pointed out as being the same. a few, timidly offered that if you consider them evil there is nothing else you can do but kill them (wrong move, according to these posts). we should, instead, listen to their grievances, understand them and recognize that they are poor and underprivileged (not kidding). and then, the expected responses, questioning why the media focus on the jews.
either, muslim fascist trolls are posting these comments, which i believe is mostly the case, or these are the same americans who are still mulling over america’s involvement in wwll. especially the part where we win.
#67 Good grief – if “vouching for someone that you are not connected with on a personal basis is gambling”, well, so is is suggesting “connections” to these butchers.
In any case I’m not going to disrespect this thread or its subject by indulging in a nitpicking contest with you about someone’s motives for disagreeing with someone else. Read it all over again. It looks pretty straightforward to me.
Thanks Marymcl. I had to take my lovely wife out for her birthday last night and didn’t have the time to pop in here and answer.
You understand me, I think, a bit better than Anita and since I don’t understand what she wrote, I will just do some more purchase orders and invoices.
Al Quada , The Nut in Iran and about 12-15 Anti Jewish Racial Moslem Terrorist Groups don’t care whether or not a Jew is a ”Believer or Not ” .
The fact is your not a practicing racial Moslem and believe in Allah .They want you very dead and Israel to be no more .
In Truth my Israeli friends are not crazy over American Jews ,
They like I see Jews in Hollywood and Jewish Youth in Colleges supporting Palestinian causes which to all of us is sad and amazing .
71. P. Ami The writer of the Ha’aretz article said:
“The voice of moderates who believe the Rebbe is in fact dead (though most of this group still adhere to his belief of his ultimate resurrection and coronation as messiah) is increasingly cowed, with violent brawls breaking out and spilling on the streets on a regular basis leading to scores of hospitalizations and arrests.”
Emphasis added
“Virtually no one within the movement today is willing to deny that Schneerson was the greatest man that ever lived nor that he was perfect.
“None have a problem with praying to Schneerson, using his books for divination in place of the Bible. Even amongst those viewed as moderates, ‘the Rebbe” is often substituted for God in normal conversation’ …”
“Even among the moderate minority, the distinction between Schneerson and God is decidedly blurred. Asking adherents whether Schneerson will return as the Messiah is unlikely to yield a directly negative response.”
I report, you deride.
66. Luke 68. Mr. Simon
Forget Hitler. Even the most orthodox of rabbis cannot question the Judaism of the child of a Jewish Mother, even one raised in another religion, without more. Simply being a Jew is a matter of genetics. A convert will have to affirm his belief in God before being accepted, but those of us to the manner born only have to prove our ancestry.
However, a Jew may apostatize. He may them be subject to a herem (ban). This is seldom done anymore, even though characters like Noam Chomsky richly deserve it. Mere garden variety agnosticism doesn’t raise eyebrows anymore. If a Jew formally converts to another religion he may be denied immigrant status in Israel.
A final point is that Judaism is not belief oriented. It is oriented towards rituals and deeds. You can perform them without believing anything about the nature of God or the world. The world may be founded on the study of Torah, the practice of prayer and ritual, and deeds of loving kindness, but you don’t have to believe it to do it. Repentance, prayer and charity may avert the God’s judgment, but belief is not part of the package.
78 Fatman;
I believe the Roman Catholics have an expression “act like you have faith and faith will come to you”. How can anyone know what another truly believes? Why perform the rituals if at the core there is no belief? The Lord does not need you to believe in Him. All that is needed is to behave as a civilized human being in the highest sense;acting as a moral being. An atheist is more than capable of that. And more valuable presumably to the Lord than a condemned murderer who comes to faith as the noose is placed around his neck.
As for the convert, once in always in. Including her children. To be sure there has been and is a segment of Jews who have been caught up in Messianic movements and belief as commented here by others. However that is not a tenant of the faith even if a number of the faith may believe that. The Rebbe himself did not consider himself the Messiah.
66 Luke: R. Simon expressed it better than I can but all the same have you ever heard the expression ” Jew communist” By definition a communist is also an atheist so presumably no one who is a believer can be a communist. Yet somehow a Jew can be a ” Jew communist” but not a Anglican communist. Or Muslim communist. In short a Jew is a Jew no matter what he does or does not believe in. Or as Albert Einstein supposedly said about his theories: ” If I am proven right, the French will say I am French, the Swiss will say I am a Swiss and the German’s will say I am a German. If I am wrong, The French will say I am a Swiss, the Swiss will say I am a German and the Germans will say I am a Jew”.
We are seeing More and More Jews for Jesus .
Roger: over the last 50 years, I’ve been an atheist, an agnostic and a Buddhist. A year ago, I converted to orthodox Christianity. I was inspired by a dear friend and his wife, who are Orthodox Jews. They are so beautiful that the sun shines from their souls. Their life is wholesome and sane, and their family is a total delight. Being in their presence always made me feel so whole and so sane that I was inspired to find out more about religion.
It took me 10 years.
As you age, you discover that you have two fundamental choices in life: you can live unthinkingly in the absurd and meaningless world that appears before us–with its Nazis and clearance sales and clam-flavored beer–or you can ally yourself with all that is beautiful and ethical and loving and true and eternal.
The choice is yours.
@75 – You’re welcome.
And thanks to all for a most enlightening thread.
Both my father and his brother witnessed the Final Solution as soldiers in Europe (my uncle took part in the liberation of Ordruff) and certainly while growing up in New York in the 60′s you could still see concentration camp survivors – it seemed to me they all had the same eyes, which were like no other eyes I’ve ever seen, before or since. Many times my father told us we’d live to see a day when people would deny it ever happened. That seemed impossible to me when I was younger. But he knew exactly what he was talking about.
Judy, NYC
“we should, instead, listen to their grievances, understand them and recognize that they are poor and underprivileged (not kidding)”
Those are the SFGate kids I’m talking about, all right. It’s interesting to watch the “discussions” on this most liberal of newspapers’ website, as I and a few others apply a little gentle corrective – and not so gentle in some cases. I guess I don’t think that the comment writers in the SF Bay Area are necessarily “Muslim Fascist trolls”, although I certainly agree the effect is identical.
What frightens me even more is that this is the obvious result of the indoctrination of the schools, and that these children combine pseudo-sophistication about geopolitics with the arrogance of adolescence. The angry ones blaming America and George Bush for acne are under 30s, a Kos echo chamber; the ones who apparently still believe that alleviating poverty will result in group hugs all round are probably Boomy Babers. And every story is about gay marriage by about the 10th comment.It’s hard to know who’s more exasperating, but the young ones are probably going to outlive us, you know. Me, anyway. Sobering.
The anger and accusation/counteraccusation were flying hot and heavy Friday night when I entered the comment “Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife, Rivka, murdered by Islamic terrorists, 11/26/08. May they rest in the bosom of Abraham.”
The silence on the thread stretched 20 minutes.
As a Christian I am humbled by the faith and saddened by the death of these young religious. God save us all, and give us strength to smite this evil.
Agnostic does not separate you from the crowd, when they come for us, their not interested in the depth of our faith, only the blood of our heritage.
If it weren’t for the requirement to believe in the Torah as the Word of God I’d convert to Karaite Judaism. Why Karaite? Because you Rabbinical Jews have made things too damn complicated. Leviticus says that God said we are not to cook a kid in it’s mother’s milk. It says nothing about cooking the kid in the milk of another goat.
This I believe; that you keep your code of conduct simple, and that you have the courage to admit when you don’t know. As a corollary to the second, fess up when you’re wrong. (Sub-corollary: Anything produced by people has mistakes, and holy books were produced by people.)
Where defending yourself is concerned, you have a moral obligation to do so. Pacifism enables crime and violence. Live peacefully when you can, but always be ready to kick ass and take names when necessary. Nothing is ever absolute, and this includes tolerance.
From among the many many online sites I’ve perused, this one rises above, as the comments and content are mostly intelligent, respectful, even in argument. Thank you for the clean air.
Random thoughts from the read:
I love the line Nothing is ever absolute, including tolerance. (I always ended the preface with – except death).
The term “agnostic Jew” and the argukent thereof was interesting. I struggle actually with the term “Jew”. What is it? Who/what determines it? There’s no absolute definition.
truthseeker:
As I understand it, you’re Jewish if your mother is Jewish.
I read a holocaust history book (title long forgotten) that documented how Germans assisted the hunt for Jews by digging up birth records.
A Jew is born to a Jewish mother or converted. Judaism has three facets peoplehood, spirituality and Torah read more on Chabad.org There’s also more about women in Judaism (I feel very secure in my role- half the Chabad House leaders are women) and about the Holtzbergs.
B”H
I am a Chabad Rabbi in Australia, and have thoroughly enjoyed the comprehensive and mostly respectful discussion in this forum.
According to traditional Jewish philosophy, being Jewish is a soul thing, a Jew has a Jewish soul.
So belief or practise does not change the status of the soul.
The Jewish soul is passed down through the mother.
It can also be acquired through a gentile converting to Judaism according to Halachah, which is a spiritual process that concludes with a Jewish soul entering the person.
That is the Torah’s explanation of the nature of one’s jewishness…
79 Cubanbob: “Why perform the rituals if at the core there is no belief?”
To establish and maintain your membership in the community.
Is an agnostic Jew like a lapsed Catholic? I never quite got the “lapsed” expression either. “Practicing” seems to be a better expression.
My great grandmother was Jewish. We think our great grandfather was too but suppressed it during the Anti-Semitic early 1900′s. If their child, my grandfather, was 100% or 50% Jewish, does that make my mother, and consequentially myself, Jewish?
jlevyellow:
The part about the genitals is correct. Several kidnapped and murdered GIs in Iraq were found in just such a state.
@91 I don’t know if there’s a theological definition, but having grown up around Irish and Italians I’ve always understood ‘lapsed Catholic’ to mean one who isn’t ‘practicing’, i.e. going to confession, etc. As far as I know, (though one could argue it suggests agnosticism) the term doesn’t mean anything in particular insofar as faith itself is concerned, though that could just be an American take on it
To BMoon: re: “My great grandmother was Jewish. We think our great grandfather was too but suppressed it during the Anti-Semitic early 1900’s. If their child, my grandfather, was 100% or 50% Jewish, does that make my mother, and consequentially myself, Jewish?
No. Judaism is only passed on by the maternal line. If they had a daughter, and she had a daughter, and she had a daughter, that great grandchild would be Jewish.
-Jerusalem Post
The Human Spirit: Call-up for candle lighters
By BARBARA SOFER
This Hebrew month of Kislev, the season of Hanukka, began with a call-up for candlelighters. Last Friday, the first day of Kislev, the words of Hallel in my Jerusalem synagogue sounded like a cry of anguish: Please, God, save now! But then our worst fears were confirmed: Terrorists had murdered Rivka and Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg, directors of the Chabad House in Mumbai, and their house guests.
In the Diaspora, where the sun had not yet set, Rabbi Yehuda Krinsky, chairman of the educational and social services arm of Chabad-Lubavitch, turned to Jewish women through the media, which for a moment were focused on the world family of Lubavitch. Light Shabbat candles, he urged, not for the death of the Holtzbergs, but as a fulfillment of their lives’ mission: bringing light.
Thank you, Chabad. Thank you to the thousands of emissaries who brave Herculean challenges to bring Yiddishkeit to the world. Thank you to their parents, who part from tender young couples who will relocate, not for a semester, but for a lifetime.
THE LUBAVITCH shluchim whom Rabbi Menahem Schneerson charged with ministering to the Jewish people everywhere in the world are known as tzva Hashem, God’s army. The military terminology isn’t metaphorical. Only those with a soldier’s strength and stoicism can take on the harsh conditions, the constant discomfort of blazing trails of Judaism through rugged terrain. They head for the wilderness at the difficult period of life when they’re bringing up small children. They set up shop in lands with archaic medical infrastructure, far from supportive family and friends, not to mention kosher stores, Jewish schools and synagogues. They bring into the intimacy of their home local and visiting Jews, masses of back-packers, and the ragged and soul-weary.
It’s a lifetime service – what we call in Israel tzva keva, the standing army. In Laos and Cambodia, in frozen Siberia, there’s nothing watered-down about their Yiddishkeit, but they have a talent for sharing Jewish tradition without eliciting antagonism – an antidote for many who associate religion with coerciveness and politics.
It’s not all cheerful dinners. On TV this week, a now-reformed Israeli told how when he sat in an Indian prison for drugs, Rabbi Holtzberg visited him and brought him books and hope. And there’s the chronic need for fund-raising. Each Chabad House is independent, and the directors need to raise their own operating budget. That includes the festive meals that all of us Jewish travelers enjoy when we’re touring or working abroad. The comforts of Shabbat on the road are also made possible by the sacrifices of these young people.
Lighting Shabbat candles at the Chabad House in Beijing. A talent for sharing Jewish tradition without eliciting antagonism.
And the most amazing part of all is that they do all this and make us feel welcome almost as if we’re doing them a favor and not the other way around.
This national service is the mission of both men and women. In Mumbai, the Holtzbergs hosted thousands of guests, young and old, provided classes and religious services. Despite media descriptions of Rivky as “the rabbi’s wife,” she served as co-director of the center. Over the past two decades, in the memory of the late Rabbanit Chaya Mushka Schneerson, Chabad women have taken on more formal roles of teaching, organizing outreach activities and counseling visitors. Terror victim Norma Shvarzblat-Rabinovich was reportedly getting help from Rivky on paperwork to move to Israel.
JEWISH TRAVELERS like to swap personal Chabad travel stories. One repeating theme is the wonder at the mix of people sitting side by side at Shabbat tables, breaking halla together. You might meet an acquaintance from Petah Tikva or Poughkeepsie, backpackers from Haifa and Halifax, and an itinerant rabbi or two. Two of the slain this week, Benzion Chroman, a Bobov hassid, and Leibish Teitelbaum, a Volover hassid, were kashrut supervisors. At the gracious Chabad table in Beijing, my husband and I once sat across from three road-weary kashrut inspectors representing three different kosher certifications. They’d spent the weekdays traveling over broken roads to the backwaters of China to inspect food production plants. (If I’d ever thought that certain canned fruit and vegetable products didn’t really require kosher certification, I changed my mind after hearing their reports.)
In Jerusalem those men might never have eaten at each other’s tables or at the home of a Lubavitch hassid, for that matter, but on the road, Jews of all persuasions join together. That spirit of unity pervaded the unamenable arena of Israeli media coverage this week. As we followed every detail of the horrific tragedy in Mumbai, no one spoke of the victims being secular, religious or haredi. They were simply “Israelis.”
HOW DID this attack on a Chabad House fit into the plans of the Mumbai terrorists? According to The New York Times, the Chabad House was an “unlikely target” of the terrorist gunmen who unleashed their series of bloody coordinated attacks at locations in and around Mumbai’s commercial centers – “It is not known if the Jewish center was strategically chosen, or if it was an accidental hostage scene.”
Let’s look at the other targets: two famous hotels, a tourist cafe, a hospital, movie theater, police barracks. To those of us who live with terrorism, these are all familiar choices of those who want to destabilize the Western world. In addition are the Jewish targets: bar or bat mitzva gatherings, synagogue services, a Passover Seder. Let’s not pretend otherwise: At the heart of international jihad lies odium for Israel and Jews.
Much about the terror attack in India remains hazy, but from the beginning Indian officials reported the meticulous preparation and professional execution of the terrorists’ strategy. Who can imagine that those who knew the floor plan of the giant Taj Mahal Palace Hotel better than the hotel’s security agents would stumble by accident on a hassidic center in a metropolis of nearly 20 million people? It’s about as likely as a truck accidentally running into a Djerba synagogue in April 2002 or it being by chance that that wheelchair-bound terror victim tossed into the sea on the Achille Lauro in 1985 was a Jew.Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni affirmed that the Chabad House was indeed attacked as a symbol of the Jewish people.
Chabad Houses go way beyond symbolism; they’re outposts of the Jewish people living and reclaiming our heritage. Thank you, Chabad. We owe it to your emissaries, who sacrifice so much for the Jewish people, to carry out their mission after their deaths. Lighting candles is a good place to start. But then we must go further to make our homes reflect the values of their Chabad House. The Chabad army fights with bowls of chicken soup, tefillin and the light of candlesticks, with loving-kindness and openness to the other, even when it’s not convenient.
Conscription time is right now. Kislev 5769.
11:05 PM, December 06, 2008