Any culture that feels it necessary to protect its language against alien influence can not be considered mature.

[tangent]As I was typing this comment I heard ABC (US) News blaming the French government for the rioting. Have the rioters no culpability?[/tangent]

France needs to learn, firmness at the beginning can eliminate the need for brutality later.

your posts seem to be telling the truth, but only half the truth.  if the consequences to immigrants of what you describe at a, b & d are bad, they are bad for everone else too.  so why then are the non immigrant unemployed of france not rubbishing paris?  i’m not sure what you have in mind at c with “strict regulation of newspapers/media by the state”

but we’re really getting away from the immediate point here.  suppose everything you said amounted to the whole truth of matters;  not all of it put together would justify the trashing of these suburbs.

your posts seem to be telling the truth, but only half the truth.  if the consequences to immigrants of what you describe at a, b & d are bad, they are bad for everone else too.  so why then are the non immigrant unemployed of france not rubbishing paris?  i’m not sure what you have in mind at c with “strict regulation of newspapers/media by the state”

but we’re really getting away from the immediate point here.  suppose everything you said amounted to the whole truth of matters;  not all of it put together would justify the trashing of these suburbs.

If this sort of nonsense keeps up, we’re going to see a Le Pen presidency in France in the name of law and order, which won’t be good for anybody.

“Rioting youths shot at police and firefighters Thursday after burning car dealerships and public buses and hurling rocks at commuter trains. France’s government faced growing pressure to curb the violence, fueled by anger over poor conditions in suburban Paris housing projects.

Rampaging for an eighth day, youths ignored an appeal for calm from French President Jacques Chirac, whose government worked feverishly to fend off a political crisis amid criticism that it has ignored problems in suburbs heavily populated by first- and second-generation North African and Muslim immigrants.”

You don’t “stimulate the immigrant’s chances of economic participation” by

a) providing vastly more attractive incentives to not work and remain on the dole for years;

b) protecting older unionized workers at the expense of new hires, thereby guaranteeing a youth unemployment rate of 20-25%+ (the youth unemployment rate in the cites [projects] surrounding Paris is >50%);

c) encouraging dependence on the state for housing and even political participation (cf the muslim parliament, strict regulation of newspapers/media by the state, etc);

d) keeping interest rates artificially high and inhibiting the growth of venture capital and robust competition in the financial sector, thereby limiting immigrant business start-ups’ access to capital.

The essence of the problem is that Europe continues to take a corporatist, state-managed approach to absorbing its immigrants. The essential bargain is that groups are bought off through state subsidies in exchange for tight state regulation of individual and group activity: the state gets control over areas of immigrant life, and the immigrant gets access to a juicy state teat.

Our model is laissez-faire in both the economic and the cultural/political realms. The result is that the young immigranys attracted by America are attracted mainly by the chance to make it on their own, while the young immigrants attracted by Europe tend to be resenters who are more interested in expressing grievances than in building anything. The killer of Theo Van Gogh was seeking a stategrant, IIRC, to do “community organizing.” His mother testified that he had had plenty of time to plan the killing because he’d been on the dole for years.

And let’s be keen to strengthen our own immunity here at home. One day, like it or not, we’ll find the Europeans at our doorstep, asking for our help.

You quote:

well i don’t know which europe you’ve been to,  but the one i live in is falling over itself trying to stimulate the immigrant’s chances of economic participation.

but in any case,  you misidentify the problem.  the problem isn’t that the state doesn’t provide this, that or the other,  the problem is that people are trashing their cities.  they should stop it immediately and find a better way of dealing with life.