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	<title>Comments on: It wouldn&#8217;t take my favorite art forger&#8230;</title>
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	<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/</link>
	<description>The blog of the mystery writer, screenwriter and CEO of Pajamas Media</description>
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		<title>By: Buddy Larsen</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50795</link>
		<dc:creator>Buddy Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2005 04:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50795</guid>
		<description>If I hadn&#039;t looked in on this thread so late at night, hadn&#039;t entered my daily Dada period, I&#039;d probably find something to disagree with the bof a yez. But, Truepeers is saying that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and Syl is saying that only how it smokes matters. Maybe old Gregory Wolfe WAS flying a little high there, with the transcendentalism and &#039;subcreation&#039; loftiness. That can get pretty dark, thinking you ought to follow art that you like, all the way into the artist&#039;s head. Maybe &#039;the play&#039;s the thing&#039; as the Bard said.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I hadn&#8217;t looked in on this thread so late at night, hadn&#8217;t entered my daily Dada period, I&#8217;d probably find something to disagree with the bof a yez. But, Truepeers is saying that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and Syl is saying that only how it smokes matters. Maybe old Gregory Wolfe WAS flying a little high there, with the transcendentalism and &#8216;subcreation&#8217; loftiness. That can get pretty dark, thinking you ought to follow art that you like, all the way into the artist&#8217;s head. Maybe &#8216;the play&#8217;s the thing&#8217; as the Bard said.</p>
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		<title>By: Syl</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50794</link>
		<dc:creator>Syl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2005 02:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50794</guid>
		<description>Oy. Buddy, I disagree. I read the NRO piece and was simply amused by it. Virtue? Pfeh.



It&#039;s the reaction to the artwork that gives rise to all these theories. Artists themselves can be just as deluded concerning their own motives and methods.



We all know that correlation is not causation, yet so easily conflate the artist with the art.








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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oy. Buddy, I disagree. I read the NRO piece and was simply amused by it. Virtue? Pfeh.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the reaction to the artwork that gives rise to all these theories. Artists themselves can be just as deluded concerning their own motives and methods.</p>
<p>We all know that correlation is not causation, yet so easily conflate the artist with the art.</p>
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		<title>By: truepeers</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50793</link>
		<dc:creator>truepeers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2005 01:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50793</guid>
		<description>Yeah, that&#039;s a good essay Buddy. I agree that we are moving into an era where the romantic idea of the artist will wither away and we will return to notions of craftsmanship.



Obviously Pollock&#039;s lifestyle/persona was part of his appeal, but that&#039;s not to say that all paint splatterers are equal in their splattering merits. The romantic lives a lie about the importance and uniqueness of his individuality as such, but he does so in an attempt to resist the forces of a market society that seem to threaten to reduce him to some automaton. And by resisting the market he may indeed create a real value in the market, the work that for a moment upholds the promise of a distinctiveness that is not like all the others. So I am impressed by my mother&#039;s story, not that i spend my time studying Pollocks or such.



The reason I think we will return to an idea of craftsmanship is that the era of the artist making, or being the focus of, fundamental discoveries about humanity seems to have played itself out. Whatever the limits of romanticism, modernism, postmodernism, there is nonetheless something essential that they taught us about our humanity. But it seems today that the esthetic experiment is playing itself out, at least in some disciplines (though some, like film, remain strong). There was a time when great thinkers aspired to write novels - Chesterton, Camus, dare I say Sartre - but today the most ambitious, it seems to me, limit themselves, like bloggers, to commentary, and maybe poetry, where the literary cutting edge in human self-understanding seems to be.



The reason for this is ethical. The romantic artist makes a great claim on the public attention - unlike the craftsman - for his purported discovery of some new and fundamental aspect of humanity in history. Not only does this attract the possibility of more resentment than it can handle, it relies on certain sacrificial gestures which we can no longer take as seriously as the artiste of old would like us to (because the seriousness of national high culture is tied, historically, to the great violence of the 20thC). A work of art is defined in large part by the means of its closure, while the intellectual commentary which is essentially ethical and not esthetic, is part of a ongoing conversation which we can all join and take up in defining what our times say about the unfolding possibilities inherent in human origins.



The romantic attracts more resentment today than he recycles back into the market system. SO we turn increasingly towards the craftsman who has a less problematic relationship to the marketplace. We value the work ethic behind his learned skill and because we can no longer value the artiste&#039;s pretension to unique individuality unless it is in a field where no one performance excludes the possibility of another&#039;s. Body modification is exemplary of this. Salieri would like our time.



All of this is to point out why I disagree with this statement of WOlfe&#039;s:

&quot;The moment that art is made subservient to some ethical or political purpose, it ceases to be art and becomes propaganda. Art seems to require an inviolable freedom to seek the good of the artifact, without either overt or covert messages being forced into it. And history demonstrates that it is simply a statement of fact (to paraphrase Aquinas) that rectitude of the appetites is not a prerequisite for the ability to make beautiful objects. Thus our poisoner with his exquisite prose. Or Picasso brutalizing the women in his life. Or the legion of artists and scientists who drank or drugged themselves to death.&quot;



I think, rather, that art is always ethical and political (though it may not be subservient to established political purposes - his meaning here is unclear), and it is precisely the ethical limits of romanticism that are the reason for our present return to craftsmanship.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, that&#8217;s a good essay Buddy. I agree that we are moving into an era where the romantic idea of the artist will wither away and we will return to notions of craftsmanship.</p>
<p>Obviously Pollock&#8217;s lifestyle/persona was part of his appeal, but that&#8217;s not to say that all paint splatterers are equal in their splattering merits. The romantic lives a lie about the importance and uniqueness of his individuality as such, but he does so in an attempt to resist the forces of a market society that seem to threaten to reduce him to some automaton. And by resisting the market he may indeed create a real value in the market, the work that for a moment upholds the promise of a distinctiveness that is not like all the others. So I am impressed by my mother&#8217;s story, not that i spend my time studying Pollocks or such.</p>
<p>The reason I think we will return to an idea of craftsmanship is that the era of the artist making, or being the focus of, fundamental discoveries about humanity seems to have played itself out. Whatever the limits of romanticism, modernism, postmodernism, there is nonetheless something essential that they taught us about our humanity. But it seems today that the esthetic experiment is playing itself out, at least in some disciplines (though some, like film, remain strong). There was a time when great thinkers aspired to write novels &#8211; Chesterton, Camus, dare I say Sartre &#8211; but today the most ambitious, it seems to me, limit themselves, like bloggers, to commentary, and maybe poetry, where the literary cutting edge in human self-understanding seems to be.</p>
<p>The reason for this is ethical. The romantic artist makes a great claim on the public attention &#8211; unlike the craftsman &#8211; for his purported discovery of some new and fundamental aspect of humanity in history. Not only does this attract the possibility of more resentment than it can handle, it relies on certain sacrificial gestures which we can no longer take as seriously as the artiste of old would like us to (because the seriousness of national high culture is tied, historically, to the great violence of the 20thC). A work of art is defined in large part by the means of its closure, while the intellectual commentary which is essentially ethical and not esthetic, is part of a ongoing conversation which we can all join and take up in defining what our times say about the unfolding possibilities inherent in human origins.</p>
<p>The romantic attracts more resentment today than he recycles back into the market system. SO we turn increasingly towards the craftsman who has a less problematic relationship to the marketplace. We value the work ethic behind his learned skill and because we can no longer value the artiste&#8217;s pretension to unique individuality unless it is in a field where no one performance excludes the possibility of another&#8217;s. Body modification is exemplary of this. Salieri would like our time.</p>
<p>All of this is to point out why I disagree with this statement of WOlfe&#8217;s:</p>
<p>&#8220;The moment that art is made subservient to some ethical or political purpose, it ceases to be art and becomes propaganda. Art seems to require an inviolable freedom to seek the good of the artifact, without either overt or covert messages being forced into it. And history demonstrates that it is simply a statement of fact (to paraphrase Aquinas) that rectitude of the appetites is not a prerequisite for the ability to make beautiful objects. Thus our poisoner with his exquisite prose. Or Picasso brutalizing the women in his life. Or the legion of artists and scientists who drank or drugged themselves to death.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think, rather, that art is always ethical and political (though it may not be subservient to established political purposes &#8211; his meaning here is unclear), and it is precisely the ethical limits of romanticism that are the reason for our present return to craftsmanship.</p>
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		<title>By: Buddy Larsen</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50792</link>
		<dc:creator>Buddy Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2005 12:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50792</guid>
		<description>Well, Truepeers, a Philistine could say something about a low baseline...but I&#039;m not anti-Pollock. Abstract art really has a great problem in that it&#039;s essentially Romantic (bound to it&#039;s creator, rather than stand-alone on-merit), while trying to be the very opposite.  IOW, if Pollock had been a Dilbert, would his art be appreciated? Or was his lifestyle/persona--like Picasso&#039;s-- intrinsically part of the appeal of his made objects? Take a look at this great Gregory Wolfe essay on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/wolfe200505270758.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;just that sort of question&lt;/a&gt;, currently up on NRO.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Truepeers, a Philistine could say something about a low baseline&#8230;but I&#8217;m not anti-Pollock. Abstract art really has a great problem in that it&#8217;s essentially Romantic (bound to it&#8217;s creator, rather than stand-alone on-merit), while trying to be the very opposite.  IOW, if Pollock had been a Dilbert, would his art be appreciated? Or was his lifestyle/persona&#8211;like Picasso&#8217;s&#8211; intrinsically part of the appeal of his made objects? Take a look at this great Gregory Wolfe essay on <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/wolfe200505270758.asp" rel="nofollow">just that sort of question</a>, currently up on NRO.</p>
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		<title>By: truepeers</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50791</link>
		<dc:creator>truepeers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2005 03:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50791</guid>
		<description>My mother once told me a story about attending some art class; the prof. randomly put up slides of Pollock and his imitators and, without letting away which was which, he asked the class which ones they liked. Pollock scored significantly higher.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My mother once told me a story about attending some art class; the prof. randomly put up slides of Pollock and his imitators and, without letting away which was which, he asked the class which ones they liked. Pollock scored significantly higher.</p>
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		<title>By: PeterUK</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50790</link>
		<dc:creator>PeterUK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2005 03:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50790</guid>
		<description>Couple of little facts about Turner,He had himself strapped to the mast of a ship in a gale so he could depict it.That his sunsets were courtesy of Krakatoa which threw so much dust that it coloured the sky around the world.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couple of little facts about Turner,He had himself strapped to the mast of a ship in a gale so he could depict it.That his sunsets were courtesy of Krakatoa which threw so much dust that it coloured the sky around the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Buddy Larsen</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50789</link>
		<dc:creator>Buddy Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2005 03:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50789</guid>
		<description>Syl, If you like Hudson River School, I&#039;m sure you saw &quot;Last of the Mohicans&quot;...there&#039;s an even better evocation of the north woods wilderness in the movie &quot;Black Robe&quot;. Klee and Calder, ditto, playfulness, we lose it so easily.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Syl, If you like Hudson River School, I&#8217;m sure you saw &#8220;Last of the Mohicans&#8221;&#8230;there&#8217;s an even better evocation of the north woods wilderness in the movie &#8220;Black Robe&#8221;. Klee and Calder, ditto, playfulness, we lose it so easily.</p>
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		<title>By: Syl</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50788</link>
		<dc:creator>Syl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2005 01:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50788</guid>
		<description>Well, I like it all. Though Pollock is certainly not one of my favorites. I love Mondrian and have an especial love for anything by Paul Klee and also the mobiles of Calder.



On the more representational end I&#039;m partial to landscapes and never tire of looking at Bierstadt or any from the Hudson River School.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I like it all. Though Pollock is certainly not one of my favorites. I love Mondrian and have an especial love for anything by Paul Klee and also the mobiles of Calder.</p>
<p>On the more representational end I&#8217;m partial to landscapes and never tire of looking at Bierstadt or any from the Hudson River School.</p>
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		<title>By: Skookumchuk</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50787</link>
		<dc:creator>Skookumchuk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2005 23:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50787</guid>
		<description>One of Turner&#039;s best: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.j-m-w-turner.co.uk/artist/turner-rain-steam.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rain, Steam, and Speed.&lt;/a&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of Turner&#8217;s best: <a href="http://www.j-m-w-turner.co.uk/artist/turner-rain-steam.htm" rel="nofollow">Rain, Steam, and Speed.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Buddy Larsen</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50786</link>
		<dc:creator>Buddy Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2005 23:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerlsimon/2005/05/29/it-wouldnt-take-my-favorite-art-forger/#comment-50786</guid>
		<description>Yeh, I like him, too. Good stuff...I&#039;d never seen those...they&#039;re much more impressionistic than his more famous more representationals. Thanks for the pointer, good site, too!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeh, I like him, too. Good stuff&#8230;I&#8217;d never seen those&#8230;they&#8217;re much more impressionistic than his more famous more representationals. Thanks for the pointer, good site, too!</p>
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