Comments on: A “green” economy vs. a productive economy, or how America became a third-world country with first-world feelings of moral superiority http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/ Wed, 15 Feb 2012 13:59:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: BlueRidgeForum » Representative Dave Reichert of the “Mega-Taxing Eight” http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-23046 BlueRidgeForum » Representative Dave Reichert of the “Mega-Taxing Eight” Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:16:44 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-23046 [...] Roger Kimball titled his post here last Saturday morning - - “A ‘green’ economy vs. a productive economy, or how [...] [...] Roger Kimball titled his post here last Saturday morning – - “A ‘green’ economy vs. a productive economy, or how [...]

]]> By: Larry http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-23033 Larry Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:57:04 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-23033 There is a lot of bunk being posted by both sides squabbling about the temperature of the last few years, have to take a step back and look at the long term climate changes, yes changes, the earth has undergone many climate changes long before we got here. we managed to stay here becuse we evolved and adapted over the years.10,000 years ago glaciers 500 feet tall were moving over New York City, we evolved and adapted. How vain is our generation to think that we can actually change the climate? which has been changing for eons without our help!or how stupid to think that this is the perfect climate for the next eon. Change will happen if we like it or not, our job is to adapt and evolve, like we always have, only now, we have many more tools and technologies to facilitate this There is a lot of bunk being posted by both sides squabbling about the temperature of the last few years, have to take a step back and look at the long term climate changes, yes changes, the earth has undergone many climate changes long before we got here. we managed to stay here becuse we evolved and adapted over the years.10,000 years ago glaciers 500 feet tall were moving over New York City, we evolved and adapted. How vain is our generation to think that we can actually change the climate? which has been changing for eons without our help!or how stupid to think that this is the perfect climate for the next eon. Change will happen if we like it or not, our job is to adapt and evolve, like we always have, only now, we have many more tools and technologies to facilitate this

]]> By: Mike Kelter, PE http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-23025 Mike Kelter, PE Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:28:38 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-23025 I believe that Waxman-Markey will make America green. Green weeds will soon start thriving and cover once-prosperous businesses. The only way we could become much greener would be to put out to pasture the morons who voted in favor (without reading) this legistative abomination. I believe that Waxman-Markey will make America green.

Green weeds will soon start thriving and cover once-prosperous businesses.

The only way we could become much greener would be to put out to pasture the morons who voted in favor (without reading) this legistative abomination.

]]> By: trafamadore http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-23024 trafamadore Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:00:38 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-23024 While you guys are arguing, the arctic looks like it's on another record melt this summer. Look at http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png and remember that in terms of arctic warming, 2007 was the record year, that's why it's plotted. You can keep this in your browser and check it occasionally, it updates daily. cheers! While you guys are arguing, the arctic looks like it’s on another record melt this summer. Look at http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_timeseries.png
and remember that in terms of arctic warming, 2007 was the record year, that’s why it’s plotted.

You can keep this in your browser and check it occasionally, it updates daily.

cheers!

]]> By: Jack http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-23023 Jack Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:53:47 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-23023 Here's a thirty-year graph of temps: http://www.drroyspencer.com/library/pics/UAH_LT_since_1979.jpg Here's a similar date range for CO2 concentrations: http://global-warming.accuweather.com/blogpics/co2_graph_rt.gif Regardless of what Boris says, the first graph is not what we'd expect to see if there were as strong a correlation between CO2 and temps as the Chicken-Little crowd say there is. Here’s a thirty-year graph of temps:

http://www.drroyspencer.com/library/pics/UAH_LT_since_1979.jpg

Here’s a similar date range for CO2 concentrations:

http://global-warming.accuweather.com/blogpics/co2_graph_rt.gif

Regardless of what Boris says, the first graph is not what we’d expect to see if there were as strong a correlation between CO2 and temps as the Chicken-Little crowd say there is.

]]> By: sceptic http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-23015 sceptic Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:33:05 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-23015 Boris you write: Or you could calculate a linear trend on data since 2001. IF you use GISS, you get a trend of 0.013(+/- 0.02) deg C/year. So the trend itself is actually positive. But as you can also see, the uncertainty is so wide that we can’t rule out a trend that is double the worst case predictions. BUT a trend of .013 +/- .02 is not positive, it could be as high as .013+.02 or as low as .013-.02 = -.007 which is NEGATIVE. Just as you can't rule out a trend that is double the worse case prediction, you can't rule out the case that the things will get cooler, at least based on the facts you just supplied. I think that the science of climate modeling is just not good enought yet to make it predict the kinds of things we are demanding of it. Boris you write:
Or you could calculate a linear trend on data since 2001. IF you use GISS, you get a trend of 0.013(+/- 0.02) deg C/year. So the trend itself is actually positive. But as you can also see, the uncertainty is so wide that we can’t rule out a trend that is double the worst case predictions.

BUT a trend of .013 +/- .02 is not positive, it could be as high as
.013+.02 or as low as .013-.02 = -.007 which is NEGATIVE. Just as you can’t rule out a trend that is double the worse case prediction, you can’t rule out the case that the things will get cooler, at least based on the facts you just supplied.

I think that the science of climate modeling is just not good enought yet to make it predict the kinds of things we are demanding of it.

]]> By: Strawman http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-22986 Strawman Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:00:07 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-22986 Way to not answer the question, Boris. Way to not answer the question, Boris.

]]> By: peterike http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-22984 peterike Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:46:03 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-22984 Climate models are just that. Models. They are like Rube Goldberg machines. If you add an extra swinging boot or a mouse grabbing some cheese, you get different results. Scientists -- so called -- have been doing exactly that, adding tuning knobs to the system to get the models to achieve the (policically correct, grant-grabbing) results they want to achive (CO2 not getting the right results? add knob about aerosol forcing!). Trouble with the models is that observed reality continues to intrude on what the models have been predicting (quick! add more knobs!). And the models have a heck of a time predicting the past correctly, yet we are to believe they can predict the future. And we are to upend our entire civilization based on what is essentially the flipping of Tarot cards. Far, far more people will suffer and die from our response to "climate change" than will suffer and die from actual climate change. Unless the world is, indeed, getting colder, because if that goes on long enough we're all up a frozen creek. If given a choice between warming and cooling, we'd best pray hard for warming. Climate models are just that. Models. They are like Rube Goldberg machines. If you add an extra swinging boot or a mouse grabbing some cheese, you get different results. Scientists — so called — have been doing exactly that, adding tuning knobs to the system to get the models to achieve the (policically correct, grant-grabbing) results they want to achive (CO2 not getting the right results? add knob about aerosol forcing!).

Trouble with the models is that observed reality continues to intrude on what the models have been predicting (quick! add more knobs!). And the models have a heck of a time predicting the past correctly, yet we are to believe they can predict the future. And we are to upend our entire civilization based on what is essentially the flipping of Tarot cards.

Far, far more people will suffer and die from our response to “climate change” than will suffer and die from actual climate change. Unless the world is, indeed, getting colder, because if that goes on long enough we’re all up a frozen creek. If given a choice between warming and cooling, we’d best pray hard for warming.

]]> By: Galen http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-22972 Galen Mon, 29 Jun 2009 13:10:38 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-22972 If Global Warmiing is so immanent, shouldn't the bll have included a program of swimming lessons? If Global Warmiing is so immanent, shouldn’t the bll have included a program of swimming lessons?

]]> By: kevinS http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2009/06/27/a-green-economy-vs-a-productive-economy-or-how-america-became-a-third-world-country-with-first-world-feelings-of-moral-superiority/#comment-22965 kevinS Mon, 29 Jun 2009 01:42:56 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/?p=1119#comment-22965 Boris, Just curious. Have you ever engaged in building models of physical systems? If so, how complex were the systems, how many parameters of the system were allowed to vary, how many were allowed to interact with other parameters of the system? Were the system models that you built linear, or non-linear? K Boris,

Just curious. Have you ever engaged in building models of physical systems? If so, how complex were the systems, how many parameters of the system were allowed to vary, how many were allowed to interact with other parameters of the system? Were the system models that you built linear, or non-linear?

K

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