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	<title>Comments on: The Groves of Academe, or You Can&#8217;t Make It Up, Episode 8,968</title>
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		<title>By: MSS</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>MSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-36</guid>
		<description>Hmmm -- in a culture where Brittany Spears&#039; underwear gets 100 times the media coverage as our healthcare crisis or the war in Iraq... you are worried about the topics of one academic conference?

Have you been to a public toilet recently? Or looked for a public toilet when you really really had to go? Worried about who might come in to the public restroom while your child was in there?

If this conference resulted in some new approaches to public restrooms -- including the value of the French self-cleaning toilets on the streets of San Francisco -- I think that would be a good thing.

Would you rather they be debating Britteny Spears&#039; parenting style?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm &#8212; in a culture where Brittany Spears&#8217; underwear gets 100 times the media coverage as our healthcare crisis or the war in Iraq&#8230; you are worried about the topics of one academic conference?</p>
<p>Have you been to a public toilet recently? Or looked for a public toilet when you really really had to go? Worried about who might come in to the public restroom while your child was in there?</p>
<p>If this conference resulted in some new approaches to public restrooms &#8212; including the value of the French self-cleaning toilets on the streets of San Francisco &#8212; I think that would be a good thing.</p>
<p>Would you rather they be debating Britteny Spears&#8217; parenting style?</p>
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		<title>By: David K.</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>David K.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Hmm, public toilets - no history, no design, no architecture, nobody decides where they&#039;re built or how, nothing specific to different cultures about them, nobody ever behaves in any interesting or strange way in there, there&#039;s never been any politics associated with them (not even cute little English campaigns for &quot;more public loos&quot;), they have no relation to gender whatsoever. Moreover, there&#039;s never a veil drawn over them that might be worth gently lifting...

Sapere aude, Rog!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, public toilets &#8211; no history, no design, no architecture, nobody decides where they&#8217;re built or how, nothing specific to different cultures about them, nobody ever behaves in any interesting or strange way in there, there&#8217;s never been any politics associated with them (not even cute little English campaigns for &#8220;more public loos&#8221;), they have no relation to gender whatsoever. Moreover, there&#8217;s never a veil drawn over them that might be worth gently lifting&#8230;</p>
<p>Sapere aude, Rog!</p>
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		<title>By: Rickm</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Rickm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-34</guid>
		<description>I know I know I know.   Ph.D.&#039;s are only on obscure subjects.  They never impact present day politics.  Its not like a dissertation ever overturned the conventional wisdom of one of the most important events of the last century... oh wait:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Sole-Spokesman-Pakistan-Cambridge-Studies/dp/0521458501&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.amazon.com/Sole-Spokesman-Pakistan-Cambridge-Studies/dp/0521458501&lt;/a&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I know I know.   Ph.D.&#8217;s are only on obscure subjects.  They never impact present day politics.  Its not like a dissertation ever overturned the conventional wisdom of one of the most important events of the last century&#8230; oh wait:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Sole-Spokesman-Pakistan-Cambridge-Studies/dp/0521458501" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Sole-Spokesman-Pakistan-Cambridge-Studies/dp/0521458501</a></p>
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		<title>By: Gus</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Gus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-33</guid>
		<description>I think Laura got it right. I have a friend who got a PhD in German. He said he had to write his dissertation on an obscure writer that most German speakers have never heard of because there&#039;s little new to be said about Goethe, Kafka, etc.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Laura got it right. I have a friend who got a PhD in German. He said he had to write his dissertation on an obscure writer that most German speakers have never heard of because there&#8217;s little new to be said about Goethe, Kafka, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Steel</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Steel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-32</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;wherein he ridiculed that pseudo-scholarship which gloried in a “funeral parade of yawn-enforcing facts, the pseudo-light it threw upon non problems&lt;/i&gt;

You&#039;re right, because nobody poops. This actually has &lt;i&gt;nothing&lt;/i&gt; to do with &lt;i&gt;Lucky Jim,&lt;/i&gt; which, surely you recall, directs its greatest acrimony at medievalists. Which just shows what a nitwit Amis was even in his best novel.

Now &lt;a href=&quot;http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/30/aei-how-did-jews-get-so-smart/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; a panel where I&#039;m sure people got their money&#039;s worth.

Is your point that if NYU students were paying less for tuition then they&#039;d be justified in discussing public toilets? Otherwise I don&#039;t see the connection between the first half of your piece and the second.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>wherein he ridiculed that pseudo-scholarship which gloried in a “funeral parade of yawn-enforcing facts, the pseudo-light it threw upon non problems</i></p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, because nobody poops. This actually has <i>nothing</i> to do with <i>Lucky Jim,</i> which, surely you recall, directs its greatest acrimony at medievalists. Which just shows what a nitwit Amis was even in his best novel.</p>
<p>Now <a href="http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/30/aei-how-did-jews-get-so-smart/" rel="nofollow">here&#8217;s</a> a panel where I&#8217;m sure people got their money&#8217;s worth.</p>
<p>Is your point that if NYU students were paying less for tuition then they&#8217;d be justified in discussing public toilets? Otherwise I don&#8217;t see the connection between the first half of your piece and the second.</p>
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		<title>By: Down and Out of Sài Gòn</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Down and Out of Sài Gòn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 08:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-31</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That’s right folks: four separate entities at one of our premier institutions of higher learning got together to bring us a “a day-long conference on Sex, Gender and the Public Toilet: Outing the Water Closet Bringing together pioneering scholars of sex and gender with leading design professionals and activists to consider, critique, and reconstruct the public rest room.”&lt;/i&gt;

And what&#039;s so silly about the topic? Anyone who&#039;s been to a nightclub has noticed a power disparity between genders - men in and out of the &lt;i&gt;their&lt;/i&gt; cubicles in seconds, while women line up patiently yet urgently for their turn to go. It&#039;s actually not a bad idea for a discussion or a dissertation.

The real outrage here is paying $52,000 for a year&#039;s worth of study. I got 6 years of Engineering and Mathematics for $18,000 (Australian) in the early nineties - and at quite a good university too. Got two bachelors out of it as well.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That’s right folks: four separate entities at one of our premier institutions of higher learning got together to bring us a “a day-long conference on Sex, Gender and the Public Toilet: Outing the Water Closet Bringing together pioneering scholars of sex and gender with leading design professionals and activists to consider, critique, and reconstruct the public rest room.”</i></p>
<p>And what&#8217;s so silly about the topic? Anyone who&#8217;s been to a nightclub has noticed a power disparity between genders &#8211; men in and out of the <i>their</i> cubicles in seconds, while women line up patiently yet urgently for their turn to go. It&#8217;s actually not a bad idea for a discussion or a dissertation.</p>
<p>The real outrage here is paying $52,000 for a year&#8217;s worth of study. I got 6 years of Engineering and Mathematics for $18,000 (Australian) in the early nineties &#8211; and at quite a good university too. Got two bachelors out of it as well.</p>
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		<title>By: brooksfoe</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>brooksfoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 05:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-30</guid>
		<description>newyorkdude notes that most people in India defecate outside of toilets. This, clearly, is a public health problem. It might be worth studying why it is that Indians fail to either build or use toilets sufficiently. Since use of toilets is a behavior that is heavily influenced by gender concerns, with ideas about modesty and vulnerability to sexual predators often discouraging women from accessing public toilets, it might be worth looking at how gender norms influence public toilet usage, much as designers of public toilets at US institutions (sports stadiums, workplaces) do. These are complex issues; it might be worth compiling some data on them, rather than just speculating wildly, in order to discuss them with some level of expertise. Sociologists and other social scientists might be the people best suited to gathering such data and discussing its significance.

Perhaps people who have studied these issues might be brought together in some kind of seminar or workshop. If there are any good documentary films available on this subject, one might be shown at the workshop, to help focus attention and provide insight. A major university might prove to be a good locale for such a workshop to be held.

But, no, that would be ridiculous. We don&#039;t send our children to college for this sort of thing! Did you realize that at Texas A&amp;M, Federal dollars are actually devoted to research on cow poop? It&#039;s obscene.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>newyorkdude notes that most people in India defecate outside of toilets. This, clearly, is a public health problem. It might be worth studying why it is that Indians fail to either build or use toilets sufficiently. Since use of toilets is a behavior that is heavily influenced by gender concerns, with ideas about modesty and vulnerability to sexual predators often discouraging women from accessing public toilets, it might be worth looking at how gender norms influence public toilet usage, much as designers of public toilets at US institutions (sports stadiums, workplaces) do. These are complex issues; it might be worth compiling some data on them, rather than just speculating wildly, in order to discuss them with some level of expertise. Sociologists and other social scientists might be the people best suited to gathering such data and discussing its significance.</p>
<p>Perhaps people who have studied these issues might be brought together in some kind of seminar or workshop. If there are any good documentary films available on this subject, one might be shown at the workshop, to help focus attention and provide insight. A major university might prove to be a good locale for such a workshop to be held.</p>
<p>But, no, that would be ridiculous. We don&#8217;t send our children to college for this sort of thing! Did you realize that at Texas A&amp;M, Federal dollars are actually devoted to research on cow poop? It&#8217;s obscene.</p>
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		<title>By: Xanthippas</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Xanthippas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 03:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry but, this is a problem...how? How long have academics studied things that seemed of little consequence to others, and were sneered at as a result? Since oh, the days of Plato and Socrates perhaps? And why exactly would anybody whose not a student at the University have any reason to call them and moan and whine with utmost umbrage? I mean, other than as a result of being a stuffy old man that complains too much?

Honestly, if this is offensive to you, then you are strange. That&#039;s all.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry but, this is a problem&#8230;how? How long have academics studied things that seemed of little consequence to others, and were sneered at as a result? Since oh, the days of Plato and Socrates perhaps? And why exactly would anybody whose not a student at the University have any reason to call them and moan and whine with utmost umbrage? I mean, other than as a result of being a stuffy old man that complains too much?</p>
<p>Honestly, if this is offensive to you, then you are strange. That&#8217;s all.</p>
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		<title>By: Banjo</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Banjo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-28</guid>
		<description>I know what I&#039;d do with the paper this session produces.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know what I&#8217;d do with the paper this session produces.</p>
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		<title>By: KarenT</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the_groves_of_academe_or_you_c/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>KarenT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:46:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/rogerkimball/2007/11/03/the-groves-of-academe-or-you-cant-make-it-up-episode-8968/#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Hillary Clinton recently elicited sympathy for deserving youths whose parent(s) considered mortgaging the family home to send a bright youngster to college.  Clinton wants taxpayers to pay more subsidies for college education.  I think $52,000 is quite a bit to shell out in order for a kid to be lectured on things like toilets, sex and gender.

Why is there not more emphasis by politicians  on decreasing costs of of college education?  Seems to me that this would be a simpler matter than decreasing costs of medical care, given the availability of educational materials on the internet today, as well as other technological advances which increase access to information.  This would be especially applicable in the liberal arts and social sciences, which generally do not require much specialized equipment other than, say, special toilets.

I would even be so egalitarian as to suggest that publicly-funded institutions provide such educational materials on-line where the information could be judged for useful content by the public at large.  And I rather imagine that an on-line conference on toilets, sex and gender would be far cheaper than a big in-person conference.

It&#039;s interesting to me that the conference organizers pointedly include both sex and gender in the title of the conference.   I foresee special new restroom rights for people who feel like they don&#039;t fit in when visiting regular restrooms.  So this conference may cost taxpayers a lot even after it is over.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hillary Clinton recently elicited sympathy for deserving youths whose parent(s) considered mortgaging the family home to send a bright youngster to college.  Clinton wants taxpayers to pay more subsidies for college education.  I think $52,000 is quite a bit to shell out in order for a kid to be lectured on things like toilets, sex and gender.</p>
<p>Why is there not more emphasis by politicians  on decreasing costs of of college education?  Seems to me that this would be a simpler matter than decreasing costs of medical care, given the availability of educational materials on the internet today, as well as other technological advances which increase access to information.  This would be especially applicable in the liberal arts and social sciences, which generally do not require much specialized equipment other than, say, special toilets.</p>
<p>I would even be so egalitarian as to suggest that publicly-funded institutions provide such educational materials on-line where the information could be judged for useful content by the public at large.  And I rather imagine that an on-line conference on toilets, sex and gender would be far cheaper than a big in-person conference.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting to me that the conference organizers pointedly include both sex and gender in the title of the conference.   I foresee special new restroom rights for people who feel like they don&#8217;t fit in when visiting regular restrooms.  So this conference may cost taxpayers a lot even after it is over.</p>
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