Z – Thanks for the dope on Maliki (though I don’t think it’s entirely reliable). Definitely matches up with what’s been reported re his prejudices against women. But I’m still betting (along with Khalizad, the Kurds and W. etc.) that there are real distinctions between M. and other Shia partiers in Iraq (not to mention Iran)… I wouldn’t deny, though, that’s a pretty iffy wager (especially a couple years back). As you may know, O went to Iraq round the time M. was coming into power – O was ambivalent – “fluid” to use Wade’s term – about the War’s consequences at that point. But the one thing he was SURE of (as per his account of his visit in “Audacity of Hope” ) was that the future of Iraq would depend on the “hard-eyed” Iraqi pols he met. None of em gave him a Mandela-like glow. (Though I’d like to know if he was ever in a room with Barham Saleh). By 2006 we were definitely past what might be called the heroic stage of Iraqi democracy – on to something a lot more prosaic (more like Chicago?) Though in MY mind maybe even more important. Yet I wouldn’t fault O for being skeptical given the originary beamish visions of neo-cons. Funny though, he’s never been as cynical as you are about our Iraq project. Are you aware that your utter contempt for Maliki and Muslims tends to back up O’s basic stance toward the Iraq War?

Re democracy and Islam – Senegal is 90% Muslim – Wahabis making some inroads but sufi sects more important – A few years back the Sens pulled off their first real electoral transfer of power. It was as unpredicted and out of time as Kenya’s little democratic revo a few years back. Kenya, of course, just had a horrible stretch – but I doubt the Kenyan people have given up on demos in that country – Muslim population notwithstanding. You shouldn’t either. Nor should you give into the idea that the Mass of Muslims are irredeemable. Bush has been RIGHT to bet on them! OBama will up that ante in his own way. (Oh yes – Zenster – I’d urge you to go back and look at the history of Iran – the Iranian people – all on their own – made a democratic revolution which America then trashed (w/ help from the heirs of the Mullahs who now rule them). If you check Stephen Kinzer’s book about the CIA’s coup against Mossadegh – maybe you’ll be a little less sure about the eternal perfidy of Muslims and the absoute moral perfection of our own country…

Whiskey – RAW FEAR – not conducive to the Reformation that Muslims must carry out…BTW – Whisk – your own posts are often marked by, raw…defensiveness. Go back and look at your own stuff over the past few months and I think you’ll be struck by how many times you express your contempt for folks (black Americans, “elites” etc.) whom (you believe) look down on you. You get your shoulder up almost as often as Fred mentions he’s an ex-leftist…IS is possible the fear you want to instill seems to be in you. Projection is a powerful prob all over the world…PS Zenster re Hiter=OBama – guess you missed the post with this line from this thread re Obama = “Hitler, Allende, Chavez, Mugabe attest that democracy can be a suicide. This is serious business.” I SHOULD’ve objected to the insane equation of Hit and Allende as well. BTW – another Clubber (was it Roderick? who does not share my positivity re Obama) – citing a recent post by Peterike – recently counseled your “side” to chill out on the Hitler=Obama comparisons…No time to go back and find that post – but I’m not inventing this stuff – as for the anti-Christ – sorry if that was over-the-top – but the stealth Muslim meme is just as mad…Stealth secularist? Now you might have some grist there…O’s “faith” allows for a LOT of doubt!!