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	<title>Comments on: Past and future</title>
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	<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/</link>
	<description>Just another Pajamasmedia.com weblog</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Unsk</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78964</link>
		<dc:creator>Unsk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=6603#comment-78964</guid>
		<description>Ragnar:

from  the:

169. Israeli Government Communique, 13 March 1994.

Two weeks after the Hebron massacre, the Israeli government formally outlawed two radical organizations - &quot;Kach &quot; and &quot;Kahane Chai and proclaimed them to be terrorist groups. Text:

The government decided, in accordance with the proposal of the prime minister and minister of defence, on the basis of the legal opinion of the attorney-general, security factors and the Israel police, as follows:

&quot;In accordance with the authority granted by Section 8 of the Prevention of Terror Law, 5708-1948, and in addition to the declaration made concerning it in the Legislative Digest number 0 3305, 5746-1986, page 1,436, the government declares that the groups described below are terrorist organizations:

A) The &quot;Kach&quot; movement whose primary activists are, today, Baruch Marzel, Noarn Federman, and Tiran Pollak.

B) The &quot;Kahane Chai&quot; movement whose primary activists are, today, Binyamin Kahane, David Axelrod, and Yekutiel Ben Yaakov.

Now maybe it&#039;s a different &quot;David Axelrod&quot;  but many of the Trotsky  links also mention Kahane Chai.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ragnar:</p>
<p>from  the:</p>
<p>169. Israeli Government Communique, 13 March 1994.</p>
<p>Two weeks after the Hebron massacre, the Israeli government formally outlawed two radical organizations &#8211; &#8220;Kach &#8221; and &#8220;Kahane Chai and proclaimed them to be terrorist groups. Text:</p>
<p>The government decided, in accordance with the proposal of the prime minister and minister of defence, on the basis of the legal opinion of the attorney-general, security factors and the Israel police, as follows:</p>
<p>&#8220;In accordance with the authority granted by Section 8 of the Prevention of Terror Law, 5708-1948, and in addition to the declaration made concerning it in the Legislative Digest number 0 3305, 5746-1986, page 1,436, the government declares that the groups described below are terrorist organizations:</p>
<p>A) The &#8220;Kach&#8221; movement whose primary activists are, today, Baruch Marzel, Noarn Federman, and Tiran Pollak.</p>
<p>B) The &#8220;Kahane Chai&#8221; movement whose primary activists are, today, Binyamin Kahane, David Axelrod, and Yekutiel Ben Yaakov.</p>
<p>Now maybe it&#8217;s a different &#8220;David Axelrod&#8221;  but many of the Trotsky  links also mention Kahane Chai.</p>
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		<title>By: Konyok</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78948</link>
		<dc:creator>Konyok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=6603#comment-78948</guid>
		<description>@Unsk 84

When I first saw Axelrod I was struck by his physical resemblance to Naftaly Frenkel, the grand architect of GULAG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naftaly_Frenkel

Purely anecdotal, but I still get the willies when I see him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Unsk 84</p>
<p>When I first saw Axelrod I was struck by his physical resemblance to Naftaly Frenkel, the grand architect of GULAG.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naftaly_Frenkel" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naftaly_Frenkel</a></p>
<p>Purely anecdotal, but I still get the willies when I see him.</p>
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		<title>By: Konyok</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78947</link>
		<dc:creator>Konyok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=6603#comment-78947</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it matters whether Moussavi et al. are dissenters or revolutionaries. They disrupt the lockstep regime of the mullahs, and that&#039;s objectively a good thing.

The Islamic Republic model has not been very successful so far, but it was a notional attempt to bring Islam into modernity without a pharoanic throne. The dilemmas of Islam, described very well by Bernard Lewis, remain to be solved. The Iranian people are trying once again to thread the needle. Any attempt to create political pluralism in Iran is to be welcomed.

That our feckless president is taunted by the Bushism &quot;You&#039;re either with US or with THEM,&quot; is rather delicious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it matters whether Moussavi et al. are dissenters or revolutionaries. They disrupt the lockstep regime of the mullahs, and that&#8217;s objectively a good thing.</p>
<p>The Islamic Republic model has not been very successful so far, but it was a notional attempt to bring Islam into modernity without a pharoanic throne. The dilemmas of Islam, described very well by Bernard Lewis, remain to be solved. The Iranian people are trying once again to thread the needle. Any attempt to create political pluralism in Iran is to be welcomed.</p>
<p>That our feckless president is taunted by the Bushism &#8220;You&#8217;re either with US or with THEM,&#8221; is rather delicious.</p>
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		<title>By: RagnarD</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78941</link>
		<dc:creator>RagnarD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>unsk @ 84 = agitprop

Provide links or go home, mate. GP is a daily read and I smelled BS from the git-go.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>unsk @ 84 = agitprop</p>
<p>Provide links or go home, mate. GP is a daily read and I smelled BS from the git-go.</p>
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		<title>By: twobyfour</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78928</link>
		<dc:creator>twobyfour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>JMH/87

&lt;i&gt;Not sure if Canada is an advantage at the moment. Wouldn’t want you charged with hate speech for forwarding a Mark Steyn column or anything.&lt;/i&gt;

Hehe, not to worry. I had 12 solid years of samizdat experience back in my old country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JMH/87</p>
<p><i>Not sure if Canada is an advantage at the moment. Wouldn’t want you charged with hate speech for forwarding a Mark Steyn column or anything.</i></p>
<p>Hehe, not to worry. I had 12 solid years of samizdat experience back in my old country.</p>
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		<title>By: Cannoneer No. 4</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78926</link>
		<dc:creator>Cannoneer No. 4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=6603#comment-78926</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a new entry up, &lt;a href=&quot;http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/05/disruption/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Disruption&lt;/a&gt;, where those interested can participate in the AAR mentioned above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a new entry up, <a href="http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/05/disruption/" rel="nofollow">Disruption</a>, where those interested can participate in the AAR mentioned above.</p>
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		<title>By: buddy larsen</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78923</link>
		<dc:creator>buddy larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=6603#comment-78923</guid>
		<description>re troll, i just scrolled past him for the longest --but after awhile he actually brought out some decent remarks refusing to cede the workingman&#039;s banner to him --any casual reader could see the normal folks here are working people too --and not a drawing room gathering of tweed, pearl brooches, brandy and old money. He also inspired some commentary on applied American marxism at the digital street level. If they really had something new mini-meme-wise he&#039;d&#039;ve broken it. it was sorta nice to be reminded that these folks are basically vandals with the notion that their little red book is a ticket to ride. so --not all bad to run through the old obstacle course now and again. Last &amp; best, the commenters teasing out the kinks in the wrinkles was a scream entertainment-wise --imho that is --</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re troll, i just scrolled past him for the longest &#8211;but after awhile he actually brought out some decent remarks refusing to cede the workingman&#8217;s banner to him &#8211;any casual reader could see the normal folks here are working people too &#8211;and not a drawing room gathering of tweed, pearl brooches, brandy and old money. He also inspired some commentary on applied American marxism at the digital street level. If they really had something new mini-meme-wise he&#8217;d've broken it. it was sorta nice to be reminded that these folks are basically vandals with the notion that their little red book is a ticket to ride. so &#8211;not all bad to run through the old obstacle course now and again. Last &amp; best, the commenters teasing out the kinks in the wrinkles was a scream entertainment-wise &#8211;imho that is &#8211;</p>
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		<title>By: Cannoneer No. 4</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78908</link>
		<dc:creator>Cannoneer No. 4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=6603#comment-78908</guid>
		<description>marymcl@88

I have requested that wretchard start up a new blog entry to serve as an After Action Review of the disruption of the comments on the &lt;i&gt;Armies of the Right&lt;/i&gt; entry.

That guy played a lot of the BC commentariat like a bass drum and he and his buds are LTAO about it.

45% of comments over there were either from him, to him or about him.  

He&#039;ll be back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>marymcl@88</p>
<p>I have requested that wretchard start up a new blog entry to serve as an After Action Review of the disruption of the comments on the <i>Armies of the Right</i> entry.</p>
<p>That guy played a lot of the BC commentariat like a bass drum and he and his buds are LTAO about it.</p>
<p>45% of comments over there were either from him, to him or about him.  </p>
<p>He&#8217;ll be back.</p>
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		<title>By: dan</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78897</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=6603#comment-78897</guid>
		<description>@84 Unsk 

I like a good Soviet mole theory as much as the next guy and your story does have a tantalizing internal consistency but the only references citing it that I&#039;ve found are a Romanian fascist site (or Commies posing as fascists, perhaps), some crappy little Palestinian site, and some kind of unadorned web essay.  Rather impeachable sources.  There may a David Akselrod/Axelrod whose life fits your narrative, but I&#039;d say it&#039;s 99% likely it isn&#039;t Obama&#039;s Axelrod adviser.  Life couldn&#039;t possibly be *that* fascinating, could it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@84 Unsk </p>
<p>I like a good Soviet mole theory as much as the next guy and your story does have a tantalizing internal consistency but the only references citing it that I&#8217;ve found are a Romanian fascist site (or Commies posing as fascists, perhaps), some crappy little Palestinian site, and some kind of unadorned web essay.  Rather impeachable sources.  There may a David Akselrod/Axelrod whose life fits your narrative, but I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s 99% likely it isn&#8217;t Obama&#8217;s Axelrod adviser.  Life couldn&#8217;t possibly be *that* fascinating, could it?</p>
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		<title>By: marymcl</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/04/past-and-future/#comment-78895</link>
		<dc:creator>marymcl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=6603#comment-78895</guid>
		<description>@74 bogie wheel 

It&#039;s true we got caught in a nasty cycle and once started there was no getting out of it. But part of the problem is inherent in this forum&#039;s great virtue, which is its free and open nature. As you say, ignoring the troll is a choice. So all it takes to set the ball rolling is one person&#039;s response and unless we&#039;re all of one mind about this (and it&#039;s evident we&#039;re not - quite apart from mac&#039;s call to arms here it&#039;s fair enough to say the cycle on that thread got going via the determined engagement of one poster in particular) the problem is going to continue, and probably accelerate. Even the admonition to &quot;Ignore the troll&quot; is a response. It&#039;s bad enough that a single kamikaze like this guy could drive so many regulars away (and that right there says &quot;mission accomplished&quot;) what happens when they start coming in teams? We can&#039;t just declare victory and abandon the field, and we can&#039;t afford to turn on each other in what is probably a case of irreconcilable differences over this.

So the idea of some kind of registration or tech-based filter is worth exploring. I have a lot of respect for wretchard&#039;s tolerant attitude about these things, but it&#039;s obviously open to abuse and things are going to get worse before they get better.

@84 Unsk

Since a lot of people probably gave up on the last thread I&#039;ll risk being a bore and mention again here FWIW that 65 years ago Albert Camus saw the Algerian rebellion as a first front in what he called the &quot;new Arab imperialism&quot; which he believed was being orchestrated by Russia as part of a sustained attack on the West with the ultimate goal of isolating the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@74 bogie wheel </p>
<p>It&#8217;s true we got caught in a nasty cycle and once started there was no getting out of it. But part of the problem is inherent in this forum&#8217;s great virtue, which is its free and open nature. As you say, ignoring the troll is a choice. So all it takes to set the ball rolling is one person&#8217;s response and unless we&#8217;re all of one mind about this (and it&#8217;s evident we&#8217;re not &#8211; quite apart from mac&#8217;s call to arms here it&#8217;s fair enough to say the cycle on that thread got going via the determined engagement of one poster in particular) the problem is going to continue, and probably accelerate. Even the admonition to &#8220;Ignore the troll&#8221; is a response. It&#8217;s bad enough that a single kamikaze like this guy could drive so many regulars away (and that right there says &#8220;mission accomplished&#8221;) what happens when they start coming in teams? We can&#8217;t just declare victory and abandon the field, and we can&#8217;t afford to turn on each other in what is probably a case of irreconcilable differences over this.</p>
<p>So the idea of some kind of registration or tech-based filter is worth exploring. I have a lot of respect for wretchard&#8217;s tolerant attitude about these things, but it&#8217;s obviously open to abuse and things are going to get worse before they get better.</p>
<p>@84 Unsk</p>
<p>Since a lot of people probably gave up on the last thread I&#8217;ll risk being a bore and mention again here FWIW that 65 years ago Albert Camus saw the Algerian rebellion as a first front in what he called the &#8220;new Arab imperialism&#8221; which he believed was being orchestrated by Russia as part of a sustained attack on the West with the ultimate goal of isolating the US.</p>
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