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	<title>Comments on: Engage</title>
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		<title>By: Gaffe Prices</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-57239</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaffe Prices</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>wow, I just watched the montage vid: &lt;i&gt;and they say waterboarding is torture&lt;/i&gt;

engage</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow, I just watched the montage vid: <i>and they say waterboarding is torture</i></p>
<p>engage</p>
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		<title>By: Gaffe Prices</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-57237</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaffe Prices</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 22:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Michael Ledeen points out that both the Guardian and the BBC are reporting that &quot;the regime ordered its (Basij and imported Hezbollah) thugs to open fire on the demonstrators&quot;. 

And also that many who are employed by the regime, in the Army are sympathetic to the demonstration and the demonstrators, so that the regime was forced to import disinterested, professional thugs whose bloodlust is in need of a fix the carry out the orders of violent repression ordered by the regime&#039;s top mullahs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Ledeen points out that both the Guardian and the BBC are reporting that &#8220;the regime ordered its (Basij and imported Hezbollah) thugs to open fire on the demonstrators&#8221;. </p>
<p>And also that many who are employed by the regime, in the Army are sympathetic to the demonstration and the demonstrators, so that the regime was forced to import disinterested, professional thugs whose bloodlust is in need of a fix the carry out the orders of violent repression ordered by the regime&#8217;s top mullahs.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Smith</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-56976</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s being reported that Mousavi has been arrested: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092304.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s being reported that Mousavi has been arrested: <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092304.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092304.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-56967</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 23:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4486#comment-56967</guid>
		<description>Cadmus -- I don&#039;t believe anyone is using the term &quot;surrender&quot; in the sense the Iranian flag will be flying over the Capitol and Ahmadinejad moving into the White House.  I at least mean surrendering our long-held policy of exerting our will in that area of the world and allowing Iran to dictate our actions. One can surrender one&#039;s freedom of action in defending one&#039;s interests without being invaded.

Walt Erickson</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cadmus &#8212; I don&#8217;t believe anyone is using the term &#8220;surrender&#8221; in the sense the Iranian flag will be flying over the Capitol and Ahmadinejad moving into the White House.  I at least mean surrendering our long-held policy of exerting our will in that area of the world and allowing Iran to dictate our actions. One can surrender one&#8217;s freedom of action in defending one&#8217;s interests without being invaded.</p>
<p>Walt Erickson</p>
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		<title>By: Cadmus</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-56963</link>
		<dc:creator>Cadmus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4486#comment-56963</guid>
		<description>What is this paranoia with “surrender”. Why would the US surrender?

We did not surrender to the USSR or China when they were nuclear foes with much more nukes than Iran can make in decades. We have not surrendered to North Korea, Pakistan, India, or any other nuclear power.

Even if the leadership is so spineless that it stops opposing Iran, who will it surrender to?

You must have an invading force with enough manpower to take over control of the country. The size of the US would require millions of Iranians coming ashore all at once to take over. Let’s get real.

If they get nukes and decide to use them, we and our allies have enough to wipe them out. They know that, as well as we do. As much as many may believe, these guys are not looking to die for nothing. And, it will be nothing if their actions end their existence all together. At most, they hope to join the big boy club with Pakistan, India and Israel. 

We do not want them to join that club. I personally wish there was no club.

But, surrender and Iranian take over of the US! Geez!!

Cadmus</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is this paranoia with “surrender”. Why would the US surrender?</p>
<p>We did not surrender to the USSR or China when they were nuclear foes with much more nukes than Iran can make in decades. We have not surrendered to North Korea, Pakistan, India, or any other nuclear power.</p>
<p>Even if the leadership is so spineless that it stops opposing Iran, who will it surrender to?</p>
<p>You must have an invading force with enough manpower to take over control of the country. The size of the US would require millions of Iranians coming ashore all at once to take over. Let’s get real.</p>
<p>If they get nukes and decide to use them, we and our allies have enough to wipe them out. They know that, as well as we do. As much as many may believe, these guys are not looking to die for nothing. And, it will be nothing if their actions end their existence all together. At most, they hope to join the big boy club with Pakistan, India and Israel. </p>
<p>We do not want them to join that club. I personally wish there was no club.</p>
<p>But, surrender and Iranian take over of the US! Geez!!</p>
<p>Cadmus</p>
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		<title>By: fred</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-56961</link>
		<dc:creator>fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What part of all the events since 1979 that, in effect, amount to war between Iran and the United States of America do the chattering classes not get?

Besides, anyone with any knowledge of how Iran really works is never fooled by any election in that country.  The Mullahs rule.  End of story.  Yet, this weekend I met people who never knew this fact.  And when I informed them that it is the clerics&#039; council that rules the country I got either blank stares or a dismissal of what I said.

I think we have a date with destiny, but that destiny is not one that most of our people are going to like.  I&#039;m afraid things have to get much, much worse before the cold water animates the nerves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What part of all the events since 1979 that, in effect, amount to war between Iran and the United States of America do the chattering classes not get?</p>
<p>Besides, anyone with any knowledge of how Iran really works is never fooled by any election in that country.  The Mullahs rule.  End of story.  Yet, this weekend I met people who never knew this fact.  And when I informed them that it is the clerics&#8217; council that rules the country I got either blank stares or a dismissal of what I said.</p>
<p>I think we have a date with destiny, but that destiny is not one that most of our people are going to like.  I&#8217;m afraid things have to get much, much worse before the cold water animates the nerves.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-56959</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4486#comment-56959</guid>
		<description>The problem is, the mullahs and Ahmadinejad want to be engaged with the United States only so far as it serves their purpose of delaying as long as possible any action on the part of the US regarding their nuclear program. Once Iran has the bomb, of course, there will be no further need to pretend they welcome engagement with us or anyone else, except to formulate the terms of our surrender. If we’re going to get engaged to the lady, make sure it’s not a one way street, with us going the wrong way. My advice to President Obama is this:


To be engaged you need a ring
To put upon her finger
But just be sure she’s had her fling
And now she wants to linger
With you and only you my lad
And not with Mr. Putin
Or what is worse or just as bad
With someone high-falutin’
Like China’s big-time rulers now
Who seem to be so deft
And think it’s time we took a bow
And exited stage left
And just be sure she’s not a flirt
Just stringing you along
Before she throws you in the dirt
And sings a goodbye song
I see no good from this affair
No matter that she’s charming
I say to you just have a care
Some belles are quite alarming</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is, the mullahs and Ahmadinejad want to be engaged with the United States only so far as it serves their purpose of delaying as long as possible any action on the part of the US regarding their nuclear program. Once Iran has the bomb, of course, there will be no further need to pretend they welcome engagement with us or anyone else, except to formulate the terms of our surrender. If we’re going to get engaged to the lady, make sure it’s not a one way street, with us going the wrong way. My advice to President Obama is this:</p>
<p>To be engaged you need a ring<br />
To put upon her finger<br />
But just be sure she’s had her fling<br />
And now she wants to linger<br />
With you and only you my lad<br />
And not with Mr. Putin<br />
Or what is worse or just as bad<br />
With someone high-falutin’<br />
Like China’s big-time rulers now<br />
Who seem to be so deft<br />
And think it’s time we took a bow<br />
And exited stage left<br />
And just be sure she’s not a flirt<br />
Just stringing you along<br />
Before she throws you in the dirt<br />
And sings a goodbye song<br />
I see no good from this affair<br />
No matter that she’s charming<br />
I say to you just have a care<br />
Some belles are quite alarming</p>
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		<title>By: Dave the Kapampangan</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-56952</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave the Kapampangan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4486#comment-56952</guid>
		<description>To the Iranian students:

&quot;Students, I know that you think that...

1. We student &quot;cowboys&quot; will do what we believe is in our interest regardless of what the world thinks.

2. We students have the right to defend ourselves from Ahmadinejad&#039;s terrorist regime

3. It is God’s will.

4. God is on our (students) side.

5. Ahmadinejad and his thugs support a wrongful culture of terror and oppression.

6. They (the mullahs) only understand the language of force.

7. Ahmadinejad, the Mullahs, and their supplier Kim Jong Il are part of an axis of evil.

... But you know, it&#039;s really a slippery slope, so I suggest you put away those unsophisticated Bushisms and illiberal thoughts. Seeing the world in black and white is so quaint. You have to maintain the moral high ground here, and tolerate abuse for the sake of respecting the &quot;culture&quot; of the percentage of the population that perpetrates it. After all, yours is not the only morality in this multicultural world. 

Sincerely,
America, OSSR</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To the Iranian students:</p>
<p>&#8220;Students, I know that you think that&#8230;</p>
<p>1. We student &#8220;cowboys&#8221; will do what we believe is in our interest regardless of what the world thinks.</p>
<p>2. We students have the right to defend ourselves from Ahmadinejad&#8217;s terrorist regime</p>
<p>3. It is God’s will.</p>
<p>4. God is on our (students) side.</p>
<p>5. Ahmadinejad and his thugs support a wrongful culture of terror and oppression.</p>
<p>6. They (the mullahs) only understand the language of force.</p>
<p>7. Ahmadinejad, the Mullahs, and their supplier Kim Jong Il are part of an axis of evil.</p>
<p>&#8230; But you know, it&#8217;s really a slippery slope, so I suggest you put away those unsophisticated Bushisms and illiberal thoughts. Seeing the world in black and white is so quaint. You have to maintain the moral high ground here, and tolerate abuse for the sake of respecting the &#8220;culture&#8221; of the percentage of the population that perpetrates it. After all, yours is not the only morality in this multicultural world. </p>
<p>Sincerely,<br />
America, OSSR</p>
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		<title>By: Cadmus</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-56951</link>
		<dc:creator>Cadmus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4486#comment-56951</guid>
		<description>There is serious risk of regional war from all this that needs to be taken seriously. Ahmadinejad may find it necessary to divert this problem by going on the offensive against Israel to silence his critics.

It will not be through Hizbullah. First that would not save him. Second, Hizbullah may be radical, but they are not stupid. They will not do anything while the chips in Iran are in he air. If they act and Ahmadinejad falls, they are minced meet.

He will have to start something directly with Israel. Better yet, instigate an Israeli attack, which would serve him best, if he survives the attack. But, what is dying man to fear?

The irony of this is that Netanyahu is also squeezed on the issue of Palestinian statehood and is looking for a way to divert attention.

Could the two come together as a perfect storm?

The risk is certainly there.

Cadmus</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is serious risk of regional war from all this that needs to be taken seriously. Ahmadinejad may find it necessary to divert this problem by going on the offensive against Israel to silence his critics.</p>
<p>It will not be through Hizbullah. First that would not save him. Second, Hizbullah may be radical, but they are not stupid. They will not do anything while the chips in Iran are in he air. If they act and Ahmadinejad falls, they are minced meet.</p>
<p>He will have to start something directly with Israel. Better yet, instigate an Israeli attack, which would serve him best, if he survives the attack. But, what is dying man to fear?</p>
<p>The irony of this is that Netanyahu is also squeezed on the issue of Palestinian statehood and is looking for a way to divert attention.</p>
<p>Could the two come together as a perfect storm?</p>
<p>The risk is certainly there.</p>
<p>Cadmus</p>
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		<title>By: Cadmus</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/06/13/engage/#comment-56950</link>
		<dc:creator>Cadmus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=4486#comment-56950</guid>
		<description>Sam hall

When battle is engaged, I fully agree with you. I have always had a problem with the way our Government fought its wars. There is no “civilized” or Humane” war. War is hell and it needs to be ended as soon as possible. It is standard military tactic that you strike fast and hard, and that always reduces the over all cost on all sides.

But, I was not talking about battlefield action. We cannot declare the whole world as the enemy – excuse me, except Israel - and hope that this will somehow get us some where. The larger the group we lump together as “The Enemy” the harder it will be for us to deal with them. It also takes away from the veracity of our position.

I have read many in these strings wishing for Blood to flow knee deep. I have heard many people here and elsewhere talk about nuking everyone and coming back home. They talk about how a few nukes will kill every Iranian and end the problem. Sure it will. But, there are all the others we declared the enemy. Do we nuke them too? Is this the kind of people we want to be?

This confrontation in Iran, however it ends, at least proves to any who doubt that there is a large number of Iranians opposed to the Mullahs. If we condemn them to death on the premise that they do not have the ability today to go against them on their own, what kind of people would we be?

This would be like killing everyone in the neighborhood because there is criminal living there and the rest could not remove him on their own.

Is that the kind of people we want to be?

I am all for fighting those who wish us harm. God knows I have done enough of that, and still have a lot of fight in me. But, I pride myself on being a better human being. I fight to preserve a civilize world I am proud of and want to pass it on to my children.

I oppose our enemies because they have no respect for human life. Because they conduct collective murder. Because, they dehumanize all who disagree with them and condemn them to death. Because, they have no respect for others. Etc.

If I give up all I believe in and become them, then what am I fighting for? If I compromise all my principles, then who do I become?

Hate is a very destructive force, and it destroys us whether we win or loose the fight. It eats us from within. It transforms people into what they started up hating.

I tell you from experience. You can fight the devil without become a demon yourself. You can confront evil and still retain your goodness. 

The picture of the Marine cradling a baby out bomb wreckage in Iraq with the tenderness of a loving mother comes to mind. Sure the baby may one day become our enemy. But, on that day it was an innocent baby. And, the good marine treated him with the humanity and love that God expected from him. That is the kind of people I believe we should always be. 

Our enemies would have chopped the baby to peaces.

We must retain our perspective. We must remain better than them, or it will be all form nothing.

Cadmus</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam hall</p>
<p>When battle is engaged, I fully agree with you. I have always had a problem with the way our Government fought its wars. There is no “civilized” or Humane” war. War is hell and it needs to be ended as soon as possible. It is standard military tactic that you strike fast and hard, and that always reduces the over all cost on all sides.</p>
<p>But, I was not talking about battlefield action. We cannot declare the whole world as the enemy – excuse me, except Israel &#8211; and hope that this will somehow get us some where. The larger the group we lump together as “The Enemy” the harder it will be for us to deal with them. It also takes away from the veracity of our position.</p>
<p>I have read many in these strings wishing for Blood to flow knee deep. I have heard many people here and elsewhere talk about nuking everyone and coming back home. They talk about how a few nukes will kill every Iranian and end the problem. Sure it will. But, there are all the others we declared the enemy. Do we nuke them too? Is this the kind of people we want to be?</p>
<p>This confrontation in Iran, however it ends, at least proves to any who doubt that there is a large number of Iranians opposed to the Mullahs. If we condemn them to death on the premise that they do not have the ability today to go against them on their own, what kind of people would we be?</p>
<p>This would be like killing everyone in the neighborhood because there is criminal living there and the rest could not remove him on their own.</p>
<p>Is that the kind of people we want to be?</p>
<p>I am all for fighting those who wish us harm. God knows I have done enough of that, and still have a lot of fight in me. But, I pride myself on being a better human being. I fight to preserve a civilize world I am proud of and want to pass it on to my children.</p>
<p>I oppose our enemies because they have no respect for human life. Because they conduct collective murder. Because, they dehumanize all who disagree with them and condemn them to death. Because, they have no respect for others. Etc.</p>
<p>If I give up all I believe in and become them, then what am I fighting for? If I compromise all my principles, then who do I become?</p>
<p>Hate is a very destructive force, and it destroys us whether we win or loose the fight. It eats us from within. It transforms people into what they started up hating.</p>
<p>I tell you from experience. You can fight the devil without become a demon yourself. You can confront evil and still retain your goodness. </p>
<p>The picture of the Marine cradling a baby out bomb wreckage in Iraq with the tenderness of a loving mother comes to mind. Sure the baby may one day become our enemy. But, on that day it was an innocent baby. And, the good marine treated him with the humanity and love that God expected from him. That is the kind of people I believe we should always be. </p>
<p>Our enemies would have chopped the baby to peaces.</p>
<p>We must retain our perspective. We must remain better than them, or it will be all form nothing.</p>
<p>Cadmus</p>
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