In my defense, I find I overlook the PLO and their supporters because other the camp rebellion they tend to be inept. I tend to discount the Israeli’s and their “operatives” because they are not inept and are therefor less likely to be seen by a journalist.

But you are right about them playing a big role in Lebanese Politics.

First, I reread my post about Hajj and Suleiman. I did not vindicate the accusation, I explained the position of the Generals as I understood it to be. That shows the accusation to be no more than feeble grasping nonsense.

Second From Mideast Monitor a well researched and well supported by documentation…
”In February 2007, investigative journalist Seymour Hersh published a report claiming that the ruling coalition has funded Fatah al-Islam and other armed Islamist groups as a counterweight to Hezbollah.[19] Although March 14 leaders vehemently denied this claim, Siniora’s office raised suspicions by acknowledging “some organizations in the North and South have received aid from parties which have identified themselves as representatives of the Lebanese government or the Internal Security Forces.” Apart from the Hariri family’s payoffs to Jund al-Sham, a ransom to free kids held hostages in a preschool, there is little direct evidence of explicit funding of armed Sunni Islamist groups (which appear to receive most of their funding from wealthy donors in Saudi Arabia and other Arab Gulf States).”

There were a series of “news reports” about wealthy donors supporting the Sunni groups in Lebanon before the battle of the refugee camp, but most have been discredited based on a lack of documentation and credible sources.

This would not be the first time Mr. Hersh got it flat wrong, it was not the last. Jund al-Sham is a group set up by Palestinians and Syrians in Afghanistan initially with linkes to and perhaps led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. So saying it is Syrian is not the same as saying the Government of Syria backed it.

Third, Of 20 Fatah al-Islam members who appeared before a military court on May 30, 19 were Lebanese. National News Agency, 30 May 2007.
Of 25 militants whose bodies had been recovered by the Lebanese authorities as of May 26, four were identified as Saudis, according to the Saudi ambassador in Lebanon. Al-Hayat (London), 27 May 2007.

Fourth: Defense Minister Elias Murr put the speculation to rest: “Does the government so far have an official confession about the links of these [Fatah al-Islam militants] or some of them to Syria? So far, there is no answer.”quoted in “Lebanon: Fatah al-Islam defeated, military operation is over,” The Associated Press, 21 June 2007.

Unfortunately the Saudi’s do feel the need to counter the extreme militancy of the Iran backed and Syrian supported Hezbollah. UNIFIL was supposed to give the Lebanese army the opportunity to grow strong enough to be able to do away with the need for militant groups no matter what sect, in Lebanon. Meanwhile the Internal Security Forces is widely seen as a counter to Hezbollah and Shi’ah extremists and fundamentalist groups.

Cadmus, I am not naive, I know the groups have to get funding from somewhere, and I know guns are not cheep. But I still do not know who was funding those groups, or who was spreading the false reports like the ones about weapons and people detained at the Syrian border or other such nonsense that makes it into the news.

I also know that no one in such an environment is perfect.

First, as a reminder, I have opposed Hizbullah and its wars in Lebanon. I just do not believe all who claim to oppose them are good guys, or have Lebanon’s interest at heart.

Second, I have been around long enough to know that spies and operatives exist everywhere. I am not so naïve to believe that will ever end. But, I also do not accept anyone using Lebanon to settle their scores and turning Lebanon into a battle field, be they Iranian, Syrian, Israeli, Saudi or otherwise.

Third, the misunderstanding was not linguistic. I am a Lebanese-American born and raised. There is nothing wrong with my English. Read your post again, you had vindicated their accusation of Hajj and Suleiman.

Now consider the following.

Let us start with the more than 20 Israeli agents arrested in the last few weeks in Lebanon. Many others have fled before being captured. And, there have been many others and still are. The Israelis have publicly and proudly spoken of their espionage work in Lebanon, including assassinations. They may have killed bad guys, but they were and still are in the field.

Palestinians, who fought savage battles against the Lebanese, remain armed to the teeth The Lebanese – all of them – agree that Palestinian arms should be controlled and removed. The Arabs have advised “restraint”. The Government dominated by Hariri has refused to act even against Palestinian weapons outside the camps. Interesting!!

The UN, in its semi-annual reports from South Lebanon, continues to warn about the growing danger of Al-Qaida in the area. Al-Qaida also boasts of its intentions in Lebanon. Many have been arrested while setting up cells and planning security incidents. They mostly hide in the Palestinian Camps / Fortresses.

The Camp war in 2007 resulted in over 100 Saudi fighters killed and dozens arrested. Those were quickly sent to Saudi Arabia and never heard from again. Why were these not tried in Lebanon and their connections exposed? There were an equal amount of other Arab nationals.

These people were in possession of the most sophisticated weaponry, including American made remote controlled high powered sniper guns. The rooftop guns where controlled by computer from below ground, and had an effective range of almost 2 miles. Where did these come from?

If even one Iranian was found among Hizbullah’s fighters, a Chinese gun or a Russian bullet, it would have been considered the ultimate smoking gun. Yet hundreds of Saudis and sophisticated guns are dismissed as inconclusive. Interesting!!

Hariri himself admitted publicly that he had financed Fath Al Islam to “keep it under control”. He also stated that when they began to become a problem for Saida in the south, he paid them to move to the Northern camp.

Now, if a national leader, as Hariri claims he is, feels that a group of fanatics are becoming a problem, he should neutralize them, not send them to another part of the country so they can wreak havoc on people there. 170 soldiers lost their lives and hundreds were left permanently disabled from this move, not to mention the extensive material damage. Where is the accountability?

It is a long standing policy of Saudi Arabia to pay fundamentalists to fight somewhere else to avoid having to deal with them internally and still look like there are supporting Islam. Lebanon has been one of the primary beneficiaries of this largess.

The Saudis, in a an interview with the New York times two weeks ago, stated that they are pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into the Lebanese elections to “make Iran feel the pressure”, etc. You will find it very insightful. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/world/middleeast/23lebanon.html?pagewanted=all

The Saudi ambassador personally attends March 14 meetings and states what Saudi Arabia wants. This is documented in dozens of articles on dozens of occasions. He is not shy about it any more than proudly proclaiming efforts to buy votes.

And, we all know there are hundreds of US, Russian, French, and other international operatives all over Lebanon, as in any other country. These have the ability and have acted in the past.

No one else on the field!!!

Oh. And, car bombs are mobsters’ favorite weapon also.

Cadmus.

That is almost exactly my point about the Lebanese Army. Except, there has been a great deal of improvement in their capabilities, training and equipment under US and French military assistance.

Even with editing I did not see the mistake.

If you agree that Hajj and Suleiman were allied with Hizbullah and Syria, then why do you believe they killed him?

I do not believe they were allied with Hezbollah or Syria, I believe they were realists, knowing what needed to be accomplished and understanding the difference between that and what could be done right away.

But, how does that make any officer a traitor and an agent?
I did not accuse them of being traitors to Lebanon, and most certainly I did not accuse these great men of being Syrian Agents.

Perhaps some of my expressions are for you similar to my reading a translation of your Arab language letters.

The army has had very little support from anyone. Under Syrian occupation, it was handed antiquated Soviet weapons and received a few second hand US weapons. The latest model tank Lebanon ahs is Vietnam vintage M48, and they have very few of those. The west has been extremely not forthcoming in providing equipment.

That is almost exactly my point about the Syrian Army. Except, there has been a great deal of improvement in their capabilities, training and equipment under US and French military assistance. Also it is a fact that the Saudi’s not only helped pay for Ammo “donated” by other countries to Lebanon, but transferred equipment from their inventory directly to the Lebanese armed forces for use in the battle in the PLO Camp.

March 14 claimed that Fath Al Islam were Syrian agents, and then they accuse Gen. Hajj who fought them of being a Syrian agent, and then those who killed him are also Syrian agents. Wow! If the Syrians and Hizbullah are so efficient at killing themselves off, why should anyone interfere? Let them at it.

If only it were that easy, eh? Our heads would stop spinning so much.

Wadeusaf, you have made some very lucid and intelligent arguments. I know you are smarter than to fall for this type of BS. We both know there are other players on the field.

I have been asking for some solid indication of just that Cadmus. I am asking for a link to those other players. What I have is weak and frankly while some of your arguments are intriguing, I find that so far, they do not hold up well in making those connections to players other than Iran, Syria and Hezbollah.

I know you know better than that. It is not a defense of anyone, but a car bomb in itself does not implicate anyone either. Anyone can do it.

If you agree that Hajj and Suleiman were allied with Hizbullah and Syria, then why do you believe they killed him? Why did March 14 nominate and vote for Suleiman for president. In fact the Egyptian president was the first to suggest his nomination.

The army has had very little support from anyone. Under Syrian occupation, it was handed antiquated Soviet weapons and received a few second hand US weapons. The latest model tank Lebanon ahs is Vietnam vintage M48, and they have very few of those. The west has been extremely not forthcoming in providing equipment.

But, how does that make any officer a traitor and an agent?

March 14 claimed that Fath Al Islam were Syrian agents, and then they accuse Gen. Hajj who fought them of being a Syrian agent, and then those who killed him are also Syrian agents. Wow! If the Syrians and Hizbullah are so efficient at killing themselves off, why should anyone interfere? Let them at it.

Wadeusaf, you have made some very lucid and intelligent arguments. I know you are smarter than to fall for this type of BS. We both know there are other players on the field.

Cadmus

Suleiman and Hajj was accused of being Hezbollah because they knew that the only way to truly free Lebanon was to hand Hezbollah a decisive military defeat and they knew that the Lebanese army was not up to the task for a variety of reasons, including Iranian support Syrian support and support from Iranian Special Groups commonly know as the Mahdi Army.

From where can the Lebanese Army draw similar support?

Of all the assassinations by car bomb Syria denied responsibility with one exception. The killing of General Hajj.

Theoretically speaking we can point the finger at a lot of sides that could have killed all these people in Lebanon. Even if you identify the actual people who did it, it may still be someone other than the organization their supposedly belong to. Witness the recent arrests of Israeli agents in Lebanon – I am not accusing them – they include Army and Police officers and high ranking Hizbullah members. Israel has also arrested Officers working for Hizbullah. The same applies to every secret service and organization.

There is also the on and off cooperation between fundamentalists, and even between enemies on some issues of mutual benefit. Anything is possible. But, practically, one must follow the thread of events to identify the most probable, specifically since there are no real investigations in these cases. Only Hariri’s death is investigated, and that is turning into a clown show of ask me.

By the way, the De Spiegel story appeared almost to a T on a web site for the Syrian opposition Sunni movement in December. Now it is in Western media and you hear about it. Hmm!!!

You are right about Eido’s position regarding Hizbullah. He even proclaimed publicly that he is willing to “sell his blood to buy weapons to fight Hizbullah”. Sadly he did. Eido was instrumental in arming Fath Al-Islam until pressure came from Washington to stop. They publicly accused him by name and the Future Movement in general of betraying them. During the camp war, they promised to pay him back, and took credit for his death afterwards. Sure they could have taken credit for other people’s work to look strong. It could also be that Hizbullah killed him on their behalf, or any number of actors seeking to sow dissention and chaos, including the Syrians.

As I have repeatedly said, radicals need conflict to thrive. Hizbullah, while publicly denouncing the Sunni arms, viewed this development as the best justification for its own arms to remain. The Army’s crushing defeat of Fath Al Islam was not a good omen for Hizbullah, which is why at first they opposed an offensive on the camp. They changed their tone only after they witnessed the unanimous public support for the Lebanese Army, and needed to avoid looking like they are against the country. But, I doubt they viewed that event in any better light.

The camp war proved the actual unity of the Lebanese people and their opposition to sectarian conflict. It established the credibility of the Lebanese army, and gave a tremendous boost to morale and the drive to move out of the state of conflict that Hizbullah feeds on.

This came less than a year after the war with Israel, during which the Christians and others took in the mostly Shiite displaced into convents and churches, fed them clothed them and took care of their every need. That too had weakened Hizbullah’s argument as it proved to their own public that the other Lebanese are not the enemy and made it so much harder for them to induce fear.

Hizbullah was in a bad spot, and thus began to make concessions and act like nice guys. It was necessary to retain the respect of the Shiites. But, it was also necessary to undo those events and prevent the potential effect on their own standing.

The same applies to Gen. Hajj. He too was proclaimed a traitor, threatened with death and credit taken for his killing. The same argument applies regarding who actually did it.

Interestingly, some members of March 14 were accusing Gen. Hajj and Gen. Suleiman (current president) of being Hizbullah and Syrian allied in early 2007, and later sent letters to the UN demanding their prosecution for war crimes regarding the camp war. Then, suddenly Hajj becomes their martyr and Hizbullah is accused. I wish I could include these letters here, but what I have is in Arabic.

I tell you, it makes your head spin.

What is important to note is that almost all political assassinations in Lebanon had one thing in common. Almost all, there are exceptions. Those killed were die hard believers in unity and coexistence in Lebanon and were opposed to the mindless sectarian conflict played by external powers. Some were recent converts to the cause and effectively scuttled the plans of their supporters.

A united and peaceful Lebanon will deprive too many powers from a convenient battle ground, where they can fight others, pressure them and present any face they wish at minimal or no cost. It has been a no-no for a long time.

Cadmus

Walid Eido only “80 Kilograms of explosive” from YA LIBNAN. detonated in an empty car.

General Francois Al Hajj required only “35 Kilograms of explosives packed into an olive green BMW”. according to a 12/12/08 Reuters article. The vehicle was parked in a security zone that houses the presidential palace and was near several embassies in the Baabda district.

It was this last blast that was near to the Russian embassy for which no one has yet claimed responsibility, that I believed was a message to the Russians.

Since president Obama has in effect created a power vacuum, of course Russia is saying they will support any government at all for Lebanon.

Which leads back to the opening comment of this thread. Thanks Batman.

Walid Eido, who was calling on the Lebanese PM and council president to replace the six boycotting Hezbollah cabinet members? The same Walid Eido who called for disarming Hezbollah by force if they would not otherwise? Walid Eido who continued to lobby against Syrian intervention? That Walid Eido was killed for neglecting Al Queda members hiding in the PLO camp.

Now for General Francios Al Hajj, I can understand that you could make that claim. However it is more reasonable to believe the same forces that killed Hariri with a huge car bomb and took out Walid Eido with a car bomb as well as killing other MP’s and folks related to the business of shutting down Hezbollah and ending Syrian influence in Lebanon, nearly all with car bombs, would have used a car bomb to take out General Hajj.

The General was not only responsible for organizing the assault on the PLO Camp, but also setting up a blockade of assistance flowing through Syria to the folks in the camp. General Hajj was in line to lead the fill General Suleman’s spot. I suppose the man who stood the greatest chance of successfully disarming Hezbollah and the man who earned the respect and gratitude of all Lebanese was also their target.