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	<title>Comments on: Where&#8217;s the bottom?</title>
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		<title>By: Unsk</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29374</link>
		<dc:creator>Unsk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29374</guid>
		<description>From Cianfrocco at Redstate on the stimulus plan:

&quot;There’s a very strong assumption at work here, that the Obama stimulus plan will *in itself* relieve the uncertainty that is driving consumers to save rather than spend.

There’s no acknowledgment whatsoever that consumers are responding to the challenging economic environment by increasing their savings rates, and that this will continue for a long time. There’s an implicit assumption that this recession does not feature a fundamental change in the pattern of consumer demand, and this is an enormous error.&quot;

This plan does not recognize that people around the world are scared shitless, and are adjusting their behavior accordingly. Consumers and investors.  As a result,  the plan has nothing  to stimulate employers to hire in this financial collapse or investors to invest in any venture that has the slightest amount of risk. 

I can&#039;t see how the market is going to have much confidence in this plan. I am very concerned that the market is going to demand much higher returns on government bonds very shortly than the present close to zero rates, and as a result the real rate of interests will be very high,  lowering returns on investment in an already risky environment. This plan is more likely to be a drag on the economy than a stimulus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Cianfrocco at Redstate on the stimulus plan:</p>
<p>&#8220;There’s a very strong assumption at work here, that the Obama stimulus plan will *in itself* relieve the uncertainty that is driving consumers to save rather than spend.</p>
<p>There’s no acknowledgment whatsoever that consumers are responding to the challenging economic environment by increasing their savings rates, and that this will continue for a long time. There’s an implicit assumption that this recession does not feature a fundamental change in the pattern of consumer demand, and this is an enormous error.&#8221;</p>
<p>This plan does not recognize that people around the world are scared shitless, and are adjusting their behavior accordingly. Consumers and investors.  As a result,  the plan has nothing  to stimulate employers to hire in this financial collapse or investors to invest in any venture that has the slightest amount of risk. </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t see how the market is going to have much confidence in this plan. I am very concerned that the market is going to demand much higher returns on government bonds very shortly than the present close to zero rates, and as a result the real rate of interests will be very high,  lowering returns on investment in an already risky environment. This plan is more likely to be a drag on the economy than a stimulus.</p>
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		<title>By: Unsk</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29294</link>
		<dc:creator>Unsk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 04:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29294</guid>
		<description>Obama &#039;s plan is out! The all knowing all caring Messiah has done it again! 

Not.

His plan is only a &quot;framework&quot; to be fleshed out by Nancy and Harry.

He just voted present again. He&#039;ll let Nancy and Harry take the responsibility (blame)  and he&#039;ll take the credit if there is any to go around. How nice to know that Nancy and Harry have been given carte blanche. The devil is in the details and we know the fun details they can come up with. Ace of Spades has a report that some of his economic advisors were not too impressed with the Messiah and his ideas. The sacrilege!

Nancy  has already trotted out several far left ideas like of course higher taxes on the &quot;Rich&quot;, but she needn&#039;t worry. The Messiah&#039;s plan is very politically correct even with it&#039;s paucity of real substance. 

The only thing she has to worry about in the plan is the &quot;Business incentive&quot; tax relief section. This tax relief is aimed at only the   construction, manufacturing, retail , leisure and hospitality industries because (they admit this) they are  heavily unionized, employ  mostly  low and moderate income workers, and lots and lots of black and hispanics. (Also illegals which  they failed to mention somehow). 

They also target the  Energy, education, health and infrastructure with spending stimulus with of course no detail as to what that means. I guess the Nancy and Harry  know what to do there. 

There is a &quot;State Fiscal Relief&quot; section to make sure the state government workers are taken  care of, of course. And what would it be without the unspecified section of &quot;Protecting the Vulnerable&quot;. Lots of goodies can be thrown at that.

And finally the &quot;Making Work Pay Tax  Cut&quot;. If you are reading this blog regularly, this is not for you, or as promised for 95% of all workers. This is of course for low and moderate income people of unspecified (of course) means. 

All and all a huge (755 billion)  goodie bag for the favored special interest /  Democrat constituencies and no one else.  With absolutely no detail. I am absolutely positive  the economy is going to recover with this pile of crap! Charles Schwab said so because the Obama advisors are all so smart! Even though they give us no smart details and Nancy and Harry are invited to load this turkey up with every Leftist give a way in the book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama &#8216;s plan is out! The all knowing all caring Messiah has done it again! </p>
<p>Not.</p>
<p>His plan is only a &#8220;framework&#8221; to be fleshed out by Nancy and Harry.</p>
<p>He just voted present again. He&#8217;ll let Nancy and Harry take the responsibility (blame)  and he&#8217;ll take the credit if there is any to go around. How nice to know that Nancy and Harry have been given carte blanche. The devil is in the details and we know the fun details they can come up with. Ace of Spades has a report that some of his economic advisors were not too impressed with the Messiah and his ideas. The sacrilege!</p>
<p>Nancy  has already trotted out several far left ideas like of course higher taxes on the &#8220;Rich&#8221;, but she needn&#8217;t worry. The Messiah&#8217;s plan is very politically correct even with it&#8217;s paucity of real substance. </p>
<p>The only thing she has to worry about in the plan is the &#8220;Business incentive&#8221; tax relief section. This tax relief is aimed at only the   construction, manufacturing, retail , leisure and hospitality industries because (they admit this) they are  heavily unionized, employ  mostly  low and moderate income workers, and lots and lots of black and hispanics. (Also illegals which  they failed to mention somehow). </p>
<p>They also target the  Energy, education, health and infrastructure with spending stimulus with of course no detail as to what that means. I guess the Nancy and Harry  know what to do there. </p>
<p>There is a &#8220;State Fiscal Relief&#8221; section to make sure the state government workers are taken  care of, of course. And what would it be without the unspecified section of &#8220;Protecting the Vulnerable&#8221;. Lots of goodies can be thrown at that.</p>
<p>And finally the &#8220;Making Work Pay Tax  Cut&#8221;. If you are reading this blog regularly, this is not for you, or as promised for 95% of all workers. This is of course for low and moderate income people of unspecified (of course) means. </p>
<p>All and all a huge (755 billion)  goodie bag for the favored special interest /  Democrat constituencies and no one else.  With absolutely no detail. I am absolutely positive  the economy is going to recover with this pile of crap! Charles Schwab said so because the Obama advisors are all so smart! Even though they give us no smart details and Nancy and Harry are invited to load this turkey up with every Leftist give a way in the book.</p>
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		<title>By: tomw</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29260</link>
		<dc:creator>tomw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 00:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29260</guid>
		<description>Helicopter Ben (our illustrious FED chairman) got his nickname for comments he once made about dropping cash by helicopters as one way to prime the pump. Keep an eye in the sky!
..............

 Problem is, he&#039;s dropping the money while it is still in 100-bill packets, with steel bands and wooden end protectors.  Small bales, one might say.  Maybe the sky *is* falling...
 I, for one, want the &quot;money-bale umbrella&quot; concession, for sure it will be lucrative and a real product, no?

 Can one of the perfessors makin&#039; comments &#039;splain to me how it is that with 1)falling stock markets, 2)terrible bank interest rates, 3)sinking home values does it make ANY sense at all to pump money into the economy?  It just makes all of the above WORSE!
 My home is down, my stock (401k) is down, my certificate is down and they want to INFLATE to make money worth *LESS*  ?!?
 I don&#039;t get it.  Everything I worked for for the past 40 years is turning to worthless cr*p.  And at my age, my job prospects will be limited to &quot;Would you like frys with that?&quot;
 As the phrase goes, &quot;We&#039;re screwed.&quot;  Me, anyway.

tom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helicopter Ben (our illustrious FED chairman) got his nickname for comments he once made about dropping cash by helicopters as one way to prime the pump. Keep an eye in the sky!<br />
&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<p> Problem is, he&#8217;s dropping the money while it is still in 100-bill packets, with steel bands and wooden end protectors.  Small bales, one might say.  Maybe the sky *is* falling&#8230;<br />
 I, for one, want the &#8220;money-bale umbrella&#8221; concession, for sure it will be lucrative and a real product, no?</p>
<p> Can one of the perfessors makin&#8217; comments &#8216;splain to me how it is that with 1)falling stock markets, 2)terrible bank interest rates, 3)sinking home values does it make ANY sense at all to pump money into the economy?  It just makes all of the above WORSE!<br />
 My home is down, my stock (401k) is down, my certificate is down and they want to INFLATE to make money worth *LESS*  ?!?<br />
 I don&#8217;t get it.  Everything I worked for for the past 40 years is turning to worthless cr*p.  And at my age, my job prospects will be limited to &#8220;Would you like frys with that?&#8221;<br />
 As the phrase goes, &#8220;We&#8217;re screwed.&#8221;  Me, anyway.</p>
<p>tom</p>
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		<title>By: slade</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29243</link>
		<dc:creator>slade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29243</guid>
		<description>No, buddy, I follow (most of) the links but I missed that one.  Intriguing suggestion though - the global communication network bringing acceleration closer to velocity. The OECD countries would have to lead again - obviously - which raises the question of drag coefficients.  In my simple world view, the Long War took a toll on general equanimity.  I don&#039;t see much of a future for geo-strategic policies premised on long-term kinetic warfare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, buddy, I follow (most of) the links but I missed that one.  Intriguing suggestion though &#8211; the global communication network bringing acceleration closer to velocity. The OECD countries would have to lead again &#8211; obviously &#8211; which raises the question of drag coefficients.  In my simple world view, the Long War took a toll on general equanimity.  I don&#8217;t see much of a future for geo-strategic policies premised on long-term kinetic warfare.</p>
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		<title>By: buddy larsen</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29237</link>
		<dc:creator>buddy larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29237</guid>
		<description>Did you look at that John Reilly piece, slade?  It has a bullish nugget in it --something about rates of change --long moves in short time, due to the net and all. IOW the second derivative pulling up alongside the first as universal real-time communication flattens the er, ah, time/space continuum. Throws off a possibility that long slogs --long duration slogs --have already become artifacts. I know, i know --this is more of the &#039;this time it&#039;s different&#039; notion that lurks in every change and almost axiomatically creates its antithesis. but it might help account for why a world which should be overjoyed in its new material condition is instead suffused with angst &amp; anxiety.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you look at that John Reilly piece, slade?  It has a bullish nugget in it &#8211;something about rates of change &#8211;long moves in short time, due to the net and all. IOW the second derivative pulling up alongside the first as universal real-time communication flattens the er, ah, time/space continuum. Throws off a possibility that long slogs &#8211;long duration slogs &#8211;have already become artifacts. I know, i know &#8211;this is more of the &#8216;this time it&#8217;s different&#8217; notion that lurks in every change and almost axiomatically creates its antithesis. but it might help account for why a world which should be overjoyed in its new material condition is instead suffused with angst &amp; anxiety.</p>
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		<title>By: slade</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29227</link>
		<dc:creator>slade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29227</guid>
		<description>Yeah but will we know when we get there?


I am feeling sick, as in sinking.  I expect 2009 to be slow to miserable followed by a 2010 recovery that will inch along for ten years at dramatically reduced velocity and volume.  And that brass ring was so close.  Too much information, I know.  Carry on troops.

If I hear that phrase &quot;infrastructure spending stimulus&quot; one more time, I gonna do something that involves a ready shovel.

I think the Jerry Springer troll affected me.  Such anger coupled with such confused thinking.

Long slog indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah but will we know when we get there?</p>
<p>I am feeling sick, as in sinking.  I expect 2009 to be slow to miserable followed by a 2010 recovery that will inch along for ten years at dramatically reduced velocity and volume.  And that brass ring was so close.  Too much information, I know.  Carry on troops.</p>
<p>If I hear that phrase &#8220;infrastructure spending stimulus&#8221; one more time, I gonna do something that involves a ready shovel.</p>
<p>I think the Jerry Springer troll affected me.  Such anger coupled with such confused thinking.</p>
<p>Long slog indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: buddy larsen</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29223</link>
		<dc:creator>buddy larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29223</guid>
		<description>yep --you start out to drain the swamp, realize you&#039;ve really screwed up when you find yourself up to yer ass in alligators, then while you&#039;re being et it dawns on you that the whole mess is about idolatry which the ancient wisdom specifically warned you against but you didn&#039;t listen and so now getting et is in fact the least of your problems as you&#039;re quite likely on your way to hell for eternity.

Fooey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yep &#8211;you start out to drain the swamp, realize you&#8217;ve really screwed up when you find yourself up to yer ass in alligators, then while you&#8217;re being et it dawns on you that the whole mess is about idolatry which the ancient wisdom specifically warned you against but you didn&#8217;t listen and so now getting et is in fact the least of your problems as you&#8217;re quite likely on your way to hell for eternity.</p>
<p>Fooey.</p>
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		<title>By: slade</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29218</link>
		<dc:creator>slade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29218</guid>
		<description>Chuck Schumer has publicly stated that &quot;clawbacks&quot; will be part of the new administration&#039;s recovery package.

&lt;i&gt;A “clawback” (also called “recapture”) is a contractual provision whereby a company may be required to pay back all or part of a development subsidy, such as a grant, loan or tax break, if it fails to fulfill its responsibilities required by the subsidy agreement or program.&lt;/i&gt;

That is probably the only avenue of redress that is available.

But it&#039;s not a bad time to be in the litigation business.

As the pieces just keep unravelling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chuck Schumer has publicly stated that &#8220;clawbacks&#8221; will be part of the new administration&#8217;s recovery package.</p>
<p><i>A “clawback” (also called “recapture”) is a contractual provision whereby a company may be required to pay back all or part of a development subsidy, such as a grant, loan or tax break, if it fails to fulfill its responsibilities required by the subsidy agreement or program.</i></p>
<p>That is probably the only avenue of redress that is available.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s not a bad time to be in the litigation business.</p>
<p>As the pieces just keep unravelling.</p>
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		<title>By: elfman</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29217</link>
		<dc:creator>elfman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29217</guid>
		<description>6. evan....

VERY well said!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>6. evan&#8230;.</p>
<p>VERY well said!</p>
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		<title>By: slade</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/08/wheres-the-bottom/#comment-29215</link>
		<dc:creator>slade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1787#comment-29215</guid>
		<description>Perp Walks - d@mn straight.

I thought I was making progress in my Kubler-Ross 5-step program but I&#039;m back at step 1 again.  The problem, as I see it, is that the regulatory agents aren&#039;t smart enough.  We&#039;ll get a boatload of anal cr@p we don&#039;t need while the big leaks just get bigger.

Plus a weekly/monthly dose of &quot;we&#039;re all in this together&quot; cheerleader speeches from Washington.  Democrats always - always - (did I say always) - overplay the populist angle.  They will again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perp Walks &#8211; d@mn straight.</p>
<p>I thought I was making progress in my Kubler-Ross 5-step program but I&#8217;m back at step 1 again.  The problem, as I see it, is that the regulatory agents aren&#8217;t smart enough.  We&#8217;ll get a boatload of anal cr@p we don&#8217;t need while the big leaks just get bigger.</p>
<p>Plus a weekly/monthly dose of &#8220;we&#8217;re all in this together&#8221; cheerleader speeches from Washington.  Democrats always &#8211; always &#8211; (did I say always) &#8211; overplay the populist angle.  They will again.</p>
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