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	<title>Comments on: Glug, glug</title>
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	<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/</link>
	<description>Just another Pajamasmedia.com weblog</description>
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		<title>By: slade</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28956</link>
		<dc:creator>slade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28956</guid>
		<description>Call the IPCC Dave.  They&#039;ll send you a 8-1/2 x 11 glossy glossary.

(In the 2004-05 time frame, on a site long ago, debate emerged comparing the virtues of econometric modeling with climate modeling.  I have long blamed Bill Gates.  Just kidding.  But not by much.  It strikes me as no coincidence that the computer modeling roared just as computational power soared.  We&#039;re now re-equilibrating to properly factor in human, uhm, behavior patterns, which are far from godly or gaussian.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Call the IPCC Dave.  They&#8217;ll send you a 8-1/2 x 11 glossy glossary.</p>
<p>(In the 2004-05 time frame, on a site long ago, debate emerged comparing the virtues of econometric modeling with climate modeling.  I have long blamed Bill Gates.  Just kidding.  But not by much.  It strikes me as no coincidence that the computer modeling roared just as computational power soared.  We&#8217;re now re-equilibrating to properly factor in human, uhm, behavior patterns, which are far from godly or gaussian.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Murphy</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28941</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28941</guid>
		<description>Throw them in with the climate modellers peddling global warming, Dave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Throw them in with the climate modellers peddling global warming, Dave.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28938</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 09:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28938</guid>
		<description>@Jay:   I think that our worst enemy today is the persisten illusion that there is or can be such a thing as macro-economic stimulation.

L3 and I and some others discussed this a month or two ago.  All stimulation is necessarily micro-economic in nature.

And the good news is so is all economic disaster.  Were it not for theis built-in damage controll system, H Sapiens would have perished of malnutrition eons ago.

BTW:  Where can I get a glossary of all those 
terms you were using?  I reckon that you were debunking econometric modeling.  That true?

My saying is that all those found guilty of econometric modeling should be sentenced to 30 years in solitary listening to the Knesset debate Keynes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jay:   I think that our worst enemy today is the persisten illusion that there is or can be such a thing as macro-economic stimulation.</p>
<p>L3 and I and some others discussed this a month or two ago.  All stimulation is necessarily micro-economic in nature.</p>
<p>And the good news is so is all economic disaster.  Were it not for theis built-in damage controll system, H Sapiens would have perished of malnutrition eons ago.</p>
<p>BTW:  Where can I get a glossary of all those<br />
terms you were using?  I reckon that you were debunking econometric modeling.  That true?</p>
<p>My saying is that all those found guilty of econometric modeling should be sentenced to 30 years in solitary listening to the Knesset debate Keynes.</p>
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		<title>By: PSL</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28910</link>
		<dc:creator>PSL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28910</guid>
		<description>Jay @39.  I&#039;m one of those arrogant physicists, and spent over a decade working on non-linear dynamical systems, chaos theory.  In the early 1990s I worked with some traders on the Chicago Board Options Exchange.  It became clear pretty quickly that chaos theory wasn&#039;t going to work, but that&#039;s the point of doing experiments, find out if your ideas are connected to the real world.  Out of curiosity I took a course by the Merc on options.  They kinda-sorta used Black-Scholes, but they sure didn&#039;t believe in Prof. Gauss.  In fact they explicitly included very fast price drops in their options valuations. That&#039;s the difference between risking your mortagage money every day and being an academic economist.  If the economists stood in the trading pits for a few years or ran a small business and had to feed a few mouths, they&#039;d be a lot smarter and a lot more humble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay @39.  I&#8217;m one of those arrogant physicists, and spent over a decade working on non-linear dynamical systems, chaos theory.  In the early 1990s I worked with some traders on the Chicago Board Options Exchange.  It became clear pretty quickly that chaos theory wasn&#8217;t going to work, but that&#8217;s the point of doing experiments, find out if your ideas are connected to the real world.  Out of curiosity I took a course by the Merc on options.  They kinda-sorta used Black-Scholes, but they sure didn&#8217;t believe in Prof. Gauss.  In fact they explicitly included very fast price drops in their options valuations. That&#8217;s the difference between risking your mortagage money every day and being an academic economist.  If the economists stood in the trading pits for a few years or ran a small business and had to feed a few mouths, they&#8217;d be a lot smarter and a lot more humble.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Murphy</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28902</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28902</guid>
		<description>Amazing thread, guys. 
I understood enough to make it fascinating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing thread, guys.<br />
I understood enough to make it fascinating.</p>
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		<title>By: Fletcher Christian</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28881</link>
		<dc:creator>Fletcher Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28881</guid>
		<description>Consumption and the buying of homes are different. Note that there are probably quite a lot of people who, in practical terms, can&#039;t readily move - and the rest of us wouldn&#039;t really want them to; for example various types of emergency personnel who really need to live reasonably close to their jobs, for the benefit of the rest of us as well as their own.

I agree entirely with those who say that borrowing against property in order to buy the latest consumer toys is both reprehensible and stupid. Unfortunately, this behaviour drives up house prices for the prudent, as well. So people who actually are behaving responsibly are punished for the sins of those who are not.

This includes both the people who are remortgaging to buy toys and the bonus-chasing crooks who facilitate such behaviour. It applies especially to the members of the financial community who cover up the shenanigans of their fellows by wrapping up junk debt in ever-more-complex wrappers to cover up their stupidity and greed. Those who are simply struggling to buy a decent house are caught in the crossfire.

I have heard a new Internet meme that might be amusing. Unfortunately, it works better on the British side of the pond. It&#039;s a new collective noun for bankers. The new word is &quot;wunch&quot;. Think about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Consumption and the buying of homes are different. Note that there are probably quite a lot of people who, in practical terms, can&#8217;t readily move &#8211; and the rest of us wouldn&#8217;t really want them to; for example various types of emergency personnel who really need to live reasonably close to their jobs, for the benefit of the rest of us as well as their own.</p>
<p>I agree entirely with those who say that borrowing against property in order to buy the latest consumer toys is both reprehensible and stupid. Unfortunately, this behaviour drives up house prices for the prudent, as well. So people who actually are behaving responsibly are punished for the sins of those who are not.</p>
<p>This includes both the people who are remortgaging to buy toys and the bonus-chasing crooks who facilitate such behaviour. It applies especially to the members of the financial community who cover up the shenanigans of their fellows by wrapping up junk debt in ever-more-complex wrappers to cover up their stupidity and greed. Those who are simply struggling to buy a decent house are caught in the crossfire.</p>
<p>I have heard a new Internet meme that might be amusing. Unfortunately, it works better on the British side of the pond. It&#8217;s a new collective noun for bankers. The new word is &#8220;wunch&#8221;. Think about it.</p>
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		<title>By: maineman</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28877</link>
		<dc:creator>maineman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:02:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28877</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t it affect the inflation scenario if roughly half the population is over 50, just saw their retirements shrink 40%, and can&#039;t expect to sell that house, building, or business that they thought was also going to help finance retirement? Those people (i.e. me) are going to work a few more years (or more, or less), save like crazy, and NOT put money back into the economy by buying and borrowing.

And to make matters worse, we restricted our reproduction and aborted about 30 million children that we really could use at the moment. Talk about cutting our own throats. Anyway, the problem again is not enough people to borrow and produce and spend energetically.

I&#039;m not economically savvy at all, but that sounds more like a prescription for deflation than inflation. No?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t it affect the inflation scenario if roughly half the population is over 50, just saw their retirements shrink 40%, and can&#8217;t expect to sell that house, building, or business that they thought was also going to help finance retirement? Those people (i.e. me) are going to work a few more years (or more, or less), save like crazy, and NOT put money back into the economy by buying and borrowing.</p>
<p>And to make matters worse, we restricted our reproduction and aborted about 30 million children that we really could use at the moment. Talk about cutting our own throats. Anyway, the problem again is not enough people to borrow and produce and spend energetically.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not economically savvy at all, but that sounds more like a prescription for deflation than inflation. No?</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28871</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28871</guid>
		<description>Elby is correct. Inflation can easily get out of hand. Democracies are inherently unstable.
Fletcher, not all workers can get raises that keep up with inflation and retired people lose. Inflation is a type of theft.
 As far as producers are concerned they have to watch how much they borrow. Same holds for house buyers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elby is correct. Inflation can easily get out of hand. Democracies are inherently unstable.<br />
Fletcher, not all workers can get raises that keep up with inflation and retired people lose. Inflation is a type of theft.<br />
 As far as producers are concerned they have to watch how much they borrow. Same holds for house buyers.</p>
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		<title>By: cjm</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28866</link>
		<dc:creator>cjm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:05:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28866</guid>
		<description>i am not advocating inflation, just mentioning why it may be seen as useful in some quarters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i am not advocating inflation, just mentioning why it may be seen as useful in some quarters.</p>
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		<title>By: elby</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/01/07/glug-glug/#comment-28858</link>
		<dc:creator>elby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/?p=1759#comment-28858</guid>
		<description>Fletcher Christian,  inflation is bad because it rewards the wrong behavior and punishes good behavior.  Going out and getting heavily in debt is bad behavior, regardless of how one tries to justify it.  Saving your money for a rainy day, so you don&#039;t have to run to government for a handout is behavior that should be encouraged.  Inflation wipes out savings.

The economic situation with regard to two people I know illustrates this.  My sister in law, call her Lee for now, has a husband who is dying of a neurodegenerative disease.  He hasn&#039;t worked in 8 years and before that underperformed in his career.  Lee ended up nearly in foreclosure about 4 years ago as a result of this.  I should add that it took over a decade to have her husband adequately diagnosed, so they could not plan for the consequences of this disease.  People just kept thinking he should get a job.  Lee felt horrible about her difficulties paying her mortgage, and worked two jobs.  10 -12 hour days in Manhattan and nights and weekends waiting tables.  She was very good at her job, but unable to keep up due to the high taxes and high cost of living in NY.  Eventually, she decided to sell her NY house and make a very difficult, I would say traumatic, move to NC.  She was able to pay off her NY house and purchase a house outright in NC.  She got out of debt.  However, she bought only a house she could afford, which was a very modest home.  She could really use a larger one, but she wanted to keep out of debt.  Despite difficulties that far outstrip any sob story I have heard about people in foreclosure, Lee got out of debt.  If she can do it, anyone can.  It may be difficult, it may take time, and it will certainly involve loss.  But it can be done.

Her sister, call her M, has lived a life 180 degrees opposite.  Her husband is healthy, and owns a construction business in Fl.  When times were good he went further and further into debt.  They live in a huge minimansion.  They have a jacuzzi.  He gets a new truck whenever he wants one.  Their  home is luxuriously furnished, their kids have anything they want and they eat out at expensive restaurants often.  Lee tried to tell M that going into debt was not a good thing.  M and her husband refused to listen.  It is interesting to note, that during Lee&#039;s extreme difficulty with her sick husband, still ongoing, M and her husband have never so much as visited her nor offered her one dime.  Now M and her husband are on the verge of bankruptcy.  Their home is worth less than they paid for it.  Boo-hoo.  They are on the verge of bankruptcy.  They richly deserve it.

A society cannot support this sort of overconsumption for very long.  If we inflate our way out of it, we encourage M&#039;s behavior and punish Lee.  The grasshopper, who refused to put aside for the coming winter, now returns to turn the ant out of his house.

If you reward a behavior, you will get more of it.  But the behavior of going into debt to overconsume things that are not needed is unsustainable.  It simply cannot keep going.  So we should not reward it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fletcher Christian,  inflation is bad because it rewards the wrong behavior and punishes good behavior.  Going out and getting heavily in debt is bad behavior, regardless of how one tries to justify it.  Saving your money for a rainy day, so you don&#8217;t have to run to government for a handout is behavior that should be encouraged.  Inflation wipes out savings.</p>
<p>The economic situation with regard to two people I know illustrates this.  My sister in law, call her Lee for now, has a husband who is dying of a neurodegenerative disease.  He hasn&#8217;t worked in 8 years and before that underperformed in his career.  Lee ended up nearly in foreclosure about 4 years ago as a result of this.  I should add that it took over a decade to have her husband adequately diagnosed, so they could not plan for the consequences of this disease.  People just kept thinking he should get a job.  Lee felt horrible about her difficulties paying her mortgage, and worked two jobs.  10 -12 hour days in Manhattan and nights and weekends waiting tables.  She was very good at her job, but unable to keep up due to the high taxes and high cost of living in NY.  Eventually, she decided to sell her NY house and make a very difficult, I would say traumatic, move to NC.  She was able to pay off her NY house and purchase a house outright in NC.  She got out of debt.  However, she bought only a house she could afford, which was a very modest home.  She could really use a larger one, but she wanted to keep out of debt.  Despite difficulties that far outstrip any sob story I have heard about people in foreclosure, Lee got out of debt.  If she can do it, anyone can.  It may be difficult, it may take time, and it will certainly involve loss.  But it can be done.</p>
<p>Her sister, call her M, has lived a life 180 degrees opposite.  Her husband is healthy, and owns a construction business in Fl.  When times were good he went further and further into debt.  They live in a huge minimansion.  They have a jacuzzi.  He gets a new truck whenever he wants one.  Their  home is luxuriously furnished, their kids have anything they want and they eat out at expensive restaurants often.  Lee tried to tell M that going into debt was not a good thing.  M and her husband refused to listen.  It is interesting to note, that during Lee&#8217;s extreme difficulty with her sick husband, still ongoing, M and her husband have never so much as visited her nor offered her one dime.  Now M and her husband are on the verge of bankruptcy.  Their home is worth less than they paid for it.  Boo-hoo.  They are on the verge of bankruptcy.  They richly deserve it.</p>
<p>A society cannot support this sort of overconsumption for very long.  If we inflate our way out of it, we encourage M&#8217;s behavior and punish Lee.  The grasshopper, who refused to put aside for the coming winter, now returns to turn the ant out of his house.</p>
<p>If you reward a behavior, you will get more of it.  But the behavior of going into debt to overconsume things that are not needed is unsustainable.  It simply cannot keep going.  So we should not reward it.</p>
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