What Father Would Permit His Young Daughter to Wear a Bikini?
My wife and I don’t have children yet. We’re still on the training wheels (dog ownership) with Maura, our 3-year-old Siberian Husky puppy. We generally talk about having kids “10 or 15 years down the line,” long after she’s finished graduate school and we’re both at secure levels in our careers.
But the switch has flicked over all the way. While for years I wavered on “Oh, well maybe some day I’ll be a dad,” now it’s “Yes, I will need to be a father some day.” (Some of my PJ colleagues and regular writers I work with who are recent dads have no doubt been influences, too.)
So nowadays, in preparation for someday being a dad, with every little girl I see I make a conscious point to think “this is another man’s daughter.” And then: “Whatever she’s doing is his responsibility. Her growing up protected into a strong young woman is his responsibility. She is the single most important thing he should be dedicating his life to now.”
Vesta:
What do you guys think? Is it a problem or no big deal?
These swimsuits are made and manufactured by people who do not understand human evil. They are purchased by parents who do not understand human evil. And the children who grow up wearing them will therefore not come to understand human evil until after they’re victimized by it first hand.
But let me spell it out for those who want to deny it: when a woman wears a skimpy swimsuit, she is sending off the signal to every man and boy that she is a self-proclaimed slut and the most interesting thing about her is her body. If a woman didn’t want a man to look at her breasts, if she did not want to use them to attract the kind of men who have no self-control, she would not flash them around.
Perhaps here’s how I’d lay it out to my not-yet-existing daughter someday: Sweetheart, the more honey one pours out, the more flies you will attract. Now’s the time for you to wear girl swimsuits. When you’re a woman, you and your mother can decide if you want to wear these swimsuits some women wear. If you do — and even if you don’t — then we’re going to want to make sure that you know how to use your stinger.
This used to be common sense — dress like a tramp and men will treat you like one — but saying this makes me “the American Taliban” or the next coming of Puritanism or something. So be it.
Update: Another post from me with more on the debate about this subject:
The Difference Between Sexy Bikinis and Slutty Thongs — And Why Little Girls Should Wear Neither
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Related at PJ Media and PJ Lifestyle:
I whole heartedly agree with this article. My husband and I were aghast when my sister and her husband let their daughter leave the house with her bikini to go hot tub with her boyfriend. She was only 17 years old! What parent thinks that hot tubbing in a tiny bikini is an acceptable date?
So many fathers have been pushed around by their wives and daughters. At my son’s high school the girls are all wearing leggings instead of pants. Basically, they are wearing tights with no skirt or pants covering them. Their fathers let them!
As a mother of 3 sons, I know the male nature. I think it is basically cruel for the girls to dress so provocatively. If we would have had a daughter, my husband would not have been a pushover and he would have insisted on modesty.
I am from the Dark Ages generation. I remember being very embarrassed if my slip or bra strap showed, now you can even see what the girl/woman had for breakfast. When I worked at Head Start last year, little girls (ages 4 & 5) wore crop tops and low cut pants that showed more of their bottom than should decently be seen. The author, Mr. Swindle is 100% right. Has our new dress (undress) code encouraged more child pornography? One must wonder.
“But let me spell it out for those who want to deny it: when a woman wears a skimpy swimsuit she is sending off the signal to every man and boy that she is a self-proclaimed slut and the most interesting thing about her is her body. If a woman didn’t want a man to look at her breasts, if she did not want to use them to attract the kind of men who have no self control, she would not flash them around.”
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Oooo, maybe you’ll inspire a slut walk that will validate the truth you are telling.
Personally though, I wouldn’t use the term ‘slut’ to describe a bikini wearing ass and tits flaunting hoochie mamma.. I would rather use the term vain. Flaunting ones natural assets is not a directly slutty behavior. Sluttiness is wholly dependent upon actually engaging in sexual behaviors with more than one partner within a generally short time frame..
JMO
I think you used the term ‘slut’ to trigger a comment thread response..
“Sluttiness is wholly dependent upon actually engaging in sexual behaviors with more than one partner within a generally short time frame..”
Of course. Plenty of women who just sometimes dress like sluts aren’t actually sluts themselves. But when a woman dresses like a slut she will attract men who are looking for sluts.
And there’s no reason for little girls to be dressing like this. Little girls should be dressing like little girls, not like women.
But if you don’t dress them like this when they are six, how can PP help them with their abortion when they are 12? Are you trying to put PP out of business?
“… a bikini wearing ass and tits flaunting …”
A bikini is not meant to flaunt ass and tits, but to hide them.
The stupidity of an 8yo wearing a bikini is that she has no tits to hide.
Flaunting ones natural assets is not a directly slutty behavior.
Well, quite. One can go to the beach, and these days (ie, since about 1958) this includes a lot of females in bikinis. Some of whom I wish were NOT wearing bikinis, and this is not usually the kiddies. But getting back to the point, virtually none of it involves “slutty” behaviors, I mean, all that sand, …
“Here’s a few questions that were on my mind: how do the fathers of the girls wearing these swimsuits look at themselves in the mirror in the morning?”
You’re assuming that: 1. the father is present (i.e. living at home) and 2. has a say (or cares). That isn’t always the case anymore, sadly.
Plus we’ve conditioned the middle class family man to shut up when it comes to female issues: abortion, birth control, womens’ dress are all off limits for men to talk about since they lack female anatomy. That’s the whole point of Slut Walks – in every other instance we consider “don’t look like a target” to be good advice (e.g. don’t flash cash in a area where pickpockets frequent), yet when applied to the way women dress and sexual assault, it’s deemed misogyny.
Ummm, stupid, irrelevant and meaningless question dude. Fathers have no more say in what their daughters wear than they do with how the alimony and child support money is spent. If you still happen to be married for some strange reason, your wife makes all of those decisions. So, in answer to the slightly more pertinent but still stupid question, what mother would put her child in a bikini? Heck, tons of them. Have you been to the beach in the last twenty years?
Too many mothers live vicariously through their daughters.
Amen!
“Too many mothers live vicariously through their daughters”
Damn straight…
I cant believe how many “upscale yuppie” mothers I run into, shopping with their with 8-12 year old girls and BOTH are wearing hootchie-shorts with the word “PINK” or “HOT” across their asses…
Lemme get this straight mom…you want people to look at your 10 year olds ass, and think of something “pink” and/or “hot”…is that correct?
un-freaking-believable.
No wonder the Closet Pedi-Pervs who run most Public schools are so obsessed with condoms in the 5th grade…..they see parents like THAT and figure its a safe time to push the envelope a little further.
Have any of you seen Toddlers and Tiaras? I subjected myself to several episodes, and I came away disgusted and wanting to throttle their mothers.
http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2011/10/31/and-the-most-evil-show-on-television-is/
Thank you. That site was most enlightening, but not in a good way. On a lighter note I won a beauty contest at the age of four. My grandmother entered me in the contest by sending in my photo and I won. The Prettiest Boy in Bergen. Problem was I was the wrong gender.
The important thing is to get adults used to not flinching when they see apparel such as this, so that when a Harvard professor publishes a book explaining that Freud proved children are sexual beings and, therefore, MUST be afforded the human right of deciding when and with whom to have sex, the children’s parents will have no say. Once the meme is established that children should be able to chose whether to have sex with you or not, the destruction of childhood is complete. And the aggressive post-humanist politics of managing the extinction of the human race to save Gaea will be all but triumphant.
“If a woman didn’t want a man to look at her breasts, if she did not want to use them to attract the kind of men who have no self-control, she would not flash them around.”
I doubt many women want to attract men with no self-control; attract attention, oh yeah.
Couple of others pointed out that all too often fathers get little say anymore: the mother and daughter decide what she’ll wear. Especially if it’s a divorced father. There was a show a few years back where a daughter exploded into a full-fledged problem, and in the “What’s been happening?” it turned out the mother had been quietly letting daughter wear clothes to school and out that the father thought they’d agreed she would not: “George, they’re the fashion and she felt so left out!” crap. And that does indeed happen.
Back in the forties and fifties little girls and little boys went topless.
Bikinis – if they’re not too revealing – can look cute on little girls. After all, little girls don’t have anything to “show.” There’s a difference between dressing her in a bikini and dressing her in a bikini with intent to sexualize. In the accompanying screencap, I don’t find the two on the left especially proocative. The one on the right, however, pushes the boundary a bit. Leopard stripes fringed with pink lace? Maybe a bit trashy for anyone under 18.
What would I consider overboard? Anything smaller than the suits illustrated above. Anything that looks like it’s going to fall off. Anything simulating nudity. Words or pictures on the derriere. Words or pictures anywhere that would be “cutely sugggestive” on an older female, in appropriate for a young one.
There used to be this thing called “good taste” which meant you didn’t have to debate about appropriate swimwear for pre-teens.
I think we should differentiate between two piece swim suits and bikinis. Two pieces for girls can be more modest and cover all the “essentials” better than one pieces. I don’t think the bikins that have high legs and low necks are appropriate honestly at any age but especially the young girls who may not have thought through ideas about modesty or not.
I just know as a mother of a now 14 year old it’s been a horrible ordeal every year to find a swimsuit. The one pieces have low low backs and fronts with high legs and a lot have cut outs. The two pieces are padded push ups. We usually find an unpadded halter top with a bottom that are shorts or a skort.
You may be looking at the wrong type of “swimwear”
Dont think bathing suits, think sports bras and cycle shorts, “rash” shirts and shorts for surfers, and that kind of thing.
It depends on her personality and intersts….If you can get her into sports or ROTC or Martial arts or something like that, there are lots of beach appropriate “athletic-ish” apparel thats comfortable, waterproof and allows for getting a tan…its “sporty” on the beach and in the water, but not is overtly sexy.
A solid black bikini bottom (life guard style) with a neon green Surfers bra that has way more coverage than a string bikini top…
Girls that arent “sports minded” may turn their nose up at that kind of “look”, but thats how our daughter (now 15) prefers to hit the beach, and she has no problem attracting “nice” boys, so they dont have to look like strippers to get attention.
A feminine athletic look is “sexy” but in a clean-cut, capable and confident way that tends to keep the creeps and losers away.
There are reasons xhy {nsture, evolution, God pick your choice), made little girls different of women: to prevent males of being interested in them. That is why they, for iunstance, have no breasts. And our civilizations have taken care of reinforcing this natural fact by dressing little girls differntly than grown up woman. I couldn’t care less about how cute are these bikinis: they, and “sexy” child clothes weaken, in fact are intended to weaken, the social and individual barreers against paedophilia.
Wow, not sure how I feel about prompting this post. I was on board with everything until we got here:
“when a woman wears a skimpy swimsuit, she is sending off the signal to every man and boy that she is a self-proclaimed slut and the most interesting thing about her is her body”
I find this statement to be a huge over generalization, to put it kindly. Look, I am married, in my 30s, educated, and I wear a bikini. I’m not a slut, and I don’t think my choice of swimwear projects that to anyone. Bikinis are worn all over the world, by all sorts of women. I doubt all of us believe the most interesting thing about ourselves is our body. I certainly don’t.
Having said that, your point about fathers is valid. I often make the mistake of leaving dads out of the equation in my writing. It’s unintentional, but I need to make more of an effort to look at it from the male perspective.
He Vesta. Please give me the benefit of the doubt that I’m not totally crazy.
In the passage you quote I didn’t say “bikini” I said “skimpy swimsuit.” Not every bikini is going to make the woman wearing it look like she’s offering herself up for the world. I’m not saying that every time a woman wears a bikini she’s telling the world she’s a slut. That would be nuts.
Don’t some bikinis scream “I’m a tramp looking for attention from the wrong kind of men” more than others? As a man I certainly see the ones that do versus those that are tasteful. For little girls though I don’t think they should be wearing 2 piece swimsuits at all, though, but maybe I’m being too harsh?
Depends on the 2 piece.
I usually have my toddler in a rashguard top and bikini bottom suit. It fits her better. It actually covers more of her skin than a one piece, which is important when she gets tossed around by the waves on the beach. Don’t have to worry about “did I miss a spot with the sunscreen?” so much, either. Most of her arms and all of her back are covered by the fabric already. Besides, she finds the whole application process rather, um, tickly. It’s a PITA putting that stuff on a squirmy kid, so the less of it I need to do, the better.
Later on, when she’s finally completely toilet trained, it’s going to be much easier to deal with than a one piece when she needs to go to the bathroom. (Not fun dealing with getting out of a wet one piece. You have no choice but to get totally nekkid to do your bizness. I REALLY wish they had tankinis when I was a kid. I know, TMI, but being a guy, I didn’t think you knew about that, so decided to share with the group….)
And I don’t find the first two bikinis all that bad, either. Some of my friends wore similar bikinis when we were growing up back in the Stone Age (1970′s.)
And further:
“she is sending off the signal to every man and boy”
I am not saying that you or anyone who wears a bikini is a slut. What I am saying is that when a woman wears a sexy, skimpy swimsuit she is giving off the hint to the men around her that she is more sexually liberated than a woman who is not showing off her body. Again: I’m not making a moral judgment with the observation here, just stating what should be common sense. Wear a sexy swimsuit, and men will think that you’re more interested in sex than a woman who wears a modest swimsuit. Girls need to know that when picking their swim wear.
‘Don’t some bikinis scream “I’m a tramp looking for attention from the wrong kind of men” more than others?’
Followed later with,
“Again: I’m not making a moral judgment with the observation here, just stating what should be common sense.”
Honestly Dave it does sound like a moral judgement. And besides, those sorts of bikinis garner attention from practically all men, not just the ‘wrong kind’
We are all guilty of making snap moral judgements against others based upon what they are wearing, myself included. I just don’t think you could go to the beach and determine which women are more interested in sex by what type of swimsuit she’s wearing. Here’s an example – a few weeks ago while on a weekend vacation, I was at the pool early in the morning. I had on a bikini. A woman sitting poolside in a utilitarian one piece was reading Fifty Shades of Grey. I’m gonna say she was more interested in sex than me.
Geez, how did we even get on this topic? I think we are both in complete agreement that young girls in grown up bikinis conveys a message the girls themselves don’t understand, and that has the potential to be very dangerous.
I don’t know you, don’t know what you look like, but in general women over 30 tend to look inappropriate in a bikini. You might get an honest opinion from someone you respect and then don’t ever get back to me because this opinion is worth every penny you paid for it…
Well I have no problem making the moral judgment that women should not live as sluts sleeping around promiscuously. Don’t you? But that’s not the point that I’m making here. I’m making the practical point about male sexual nature and how men view women: the more of your breasts you reveal in public the more we think you want us to think about sex. That’s the hard truth, no pun intended. So when it comes to bikinis, the skimpier the bikini, the sluttier we are going to assume the woman wearing it is.
That does not mean that every bikini makes a man think you’re a slut. There are worlds of difference between a skimpy thong with tiny triangles for a top and the more normal bikini you were probably wearing.
“I’m gonna say she was more interested in sex than me.”
I’m not talking about objective reality, I’m talking about what men perceive. The man seeing you across the pool has no idea what she’s reading. He just sees you and you attract his attention and judgments whether you intended to or not. I’m talking about the practical world here.
I agree with the Halloween costume problem. It is not the shortness of the costumes or the bare skin that is a problem, there is nothing wrong with a small child running around with nothing more than a diaper, it is the sexy style of the costumes that bug me; like the slutty kitty look or the playboy bunny look. They are designed to look sexy, which I find disturbing. I am not in the business of deciding for other parents, but for my daughter I want to teach her self respect. If people want to dress like that or dress their own children like that it is their choice. Personally I don’t think slutty looks flattering at all. A more modest look is beautiful and wholesome looking, rather than skankarific.
Also, from my personal experience, I never felt confident and comfortable in a bikini. I do prefer a two piece because it is easier to use the bathroom, but there are styles that cover as much as a one piece.
In addition to the hope that my daughter will grow up to prefer dressing beautiful instead of skanky, more importantly I hope she has the self respect and sense of discernment to choose her mate wisely. I learned the hard way, I hope and I pray that I can get through to her. My mother wanted to be my friend instead of the mother that I needed. I intend to be a mother to my daughter. I only wish someone had been that person for me so I could have been spared the pain of my mistakes. I can’t change the past, but I do have control of the future.
As Dave mentioned, in case anyone wants to accuse me of American Talibaning my daughter, let me give you some perspective. When my mother caught me smoking cigarettes as a teenager, instead of punishing me she joked about the cheap brand that I was smoking. When I needed a mother, I had an appeaser, an enabler, a friend. Children need boundaries and parents have to be the authority. I think the real trick is figuring out how to raise them to CHOOSE modesty of their own free will, to have self respect and a healthy sense of beauty. The Mormons are inspirational to me in this way. They do not force their views, they leave it to you to choose freely.
If you were going about this Taliban style Dave, you wouldn’t just be writing your opinion or persuading your (future) daughter to have self respect, you would be stoning her to death for her mistakes, that is the difference. Words are just words, sticks and stones do break your bones.
‘Are they in denial about the damage done to an 8-year-old girl training to be “sexy”’
They don’t look sexy to me (the little girls in the ad). They look like little girls in swimsuits.
Then again I’m not a pervert…at least not that kind of a pervert.
Exactly — and too cute by half. Then what kind are you? The kind that wishes us well, or not so much?
Exactly Surls, those are no different than the swimsuits I saw little girls wearing 30 years ago when I was a kid. I have to wonder about people who look at pictures like that and automatically see “slut in training.”
But as a father, I always wonder a bit about people with no kids telling me how I should raise mine.
But it’s not just pedophiles that you need to be concerned about. Ten year old boys are the wild card nobody wants to talk about. A 10-year-old isn’t a pedophile if he’s attracted to little girls; he’s just pubescent. Still, with the prevailing cultural attitudes, it’s a very real possibility that the influences in his life aren’t trying to make sure he becomes a man, but rather want him to be a boy with a new toy.
Exactly. My 17 year old boyfriend loved 15 year old me in a bikini if you know what I mean. Do I regret it? I sure as hell do. I am not suggesting he was the problem, but it sure would have been nice to have parents and/or a culture/community that gave a damn about teaching me self respect.
To be clear, by culture/community I do not mean coercive government rather voluntary associations.
This is a very, very good point.
until I was eight and started breast-buds I wore JUST shorts on the beach. It never occurred to me or to anyone else, even in old-fashioned Portugal that this was indecent. I was flat as the boys were, so I wore what the boys wore. The ONLY person disturbed was my maiden aunt who saw me as a temptress and demanded my mom cover me up. My mom didn’t until there was something to cover up. I’m not going to set up as flawless, but I’m pretty normal, give or take, despite having gone topless in pre puberty. So, I’m with you, Dave Surls. They’re little girls, that’s all.
But let me spell it out for those who want to deny it: when a woman wears a skimpy swimsuit, she is sending off the signal to every man and boy that she is a self-proclaimed slut and the most interesting thing about her is her body. If a woman didn’t want a man to look at her breasts, if she did not want to use them to attract the kind of men who have no self-control, she would not flash them around.
So basically what you’re saying here, David, is if a woman is wearing skimpy clothes and is raped, it’s her fault?
I hope that’s not what you’re saying, but that’s what your argument sounds like. “Some men have no self control, so women should be covered head to toe so as not to inflame them.”
I think I’ve heard this argument somewhere before…
No Patrick. I’m the American Taliban. So what I’m saying is not only would it be her fault but that I would insist her family stone her to death to maintain the family honor.
Reminder to the rest of the world: there are other options for women apart from madonna or whore. There’s a vast middle range of normal, sane clothing and lifestyles. And I did not say that wearing a bikini makes one look like a slut.There are plenty of tasteful 2-piece swimsuits that adult women can wear that don’t reveal everything.
And who decides? You? This is America last I checked, and women are free to wear whatever takes their fancy. I don’t find 8 year olds wearing bikinis to be the death knell of modern civilization. Nor the destruction of conventional morality.
And Dave has a right to express an opinion about it. Teaching a young girl self respect is not the same thing as stoning her to death for lack of it. I say this as a women who learned the hard way. Believe whatever you want, teach your children whatever you want, but get out of my way when it comes to what I teach my own children. Being permissive with children is not any better than being authoritarian.
Wasn’t suggesting you don’t have the right to teach your daughters as you please. But you know, my three-year-old grand daughter wears a little bikini as does my 18 month old other grand daughter. I don’t see those as sexy. They’re cute. And quite modest. I do object the statement that no father should allow his young daughter to wear an age appropriate bikini from someone who admitedly does not have kids.
I’ve raised one daughter and two sons. My daughter is a married woman who waited until she was married to have children. My sons are good Christian young men.
My daughter is raising her girls well. I see no problems. What I do see is a knee-jerk reaction on the part of a lot of people that little girls in bikinis are automatically sex objects.
That’s as dangerous an attitude as the idea that no one will see them that way.
As to whether young men will look at girls or women in bikinis lustfully, well. I have news for you all. Young men (and even older ones) will look lustfully at an attractive woman in a gunny sack. It’s the way we’re wired.
Self control is learning when to look away and how not to act on things.
Can you provide any example of a swimsuit or clothing item that you would not permit your 8-year-old daughter to go out wearing? Or does it not bother you if your daughter adopts the fashion sensibilities of prostitute culture?
Be careful Dave, you are sounding more and more like a Mullah.
I already answered this: So be it.
“We generally talk about having kids “10 or 15 years down the line,” long after she’s finished graduate school and we’re both at secure levels in our careers.”
I hope your wife is VERY young, if that’s the case. One of the factors that left me most disillusioned with the feminism so prominent in my generation was that noone ever bothered to explain that delaying child-bearing until late 30′s/ early 40′s makes it difficult– in many cases impossible– to conceive without “assistance” (if at all).
I was thinking that, too; we know all too many couples that decided “oh, once she’s 30 or so, we’ll start trying” then she’s 35 and they’re looking into why no kids yet, then she’s 40 and they’re spending thousands of dollars on in vitro or trying to adopt…
My generation has been brainwashed to believe that there is some perfect magical time to have a baby. Never is the perfect time to have a baby. At a certain point you just have to have some faith and go for it.
Swimsuits Mr. Swindle might find more appropriate.
http://www.eastessence.com/catalog/GIRLS-32-1.html
Sorry, linked to wrong page. The swimsuits are at
http://www.eastessence.com/catalog/MODEST_SWIMWEAR-43-1.html
Oh yes, it is all or nothing, Sharia or Skank, nothing in between. I am beginning to think the defenders of Skankarificness are just as authoritarian as the Islamists. God forbid if a girl has a bit of self respect and presents herself as beautiful rather than skanky and God forbid if I teach such values to my daughter.
Two thoughts: 1)I don’t understand the level of outrage and self-righteousness from some quarters over Dave’s opinion. One can certainly hold another opinion without getting nasty or snarky. To leap to the conclusion that he’s implying that “if a woman is wearing skimpy clothes and is raped, it’s her fault” is unfair and unwarranted; and 2) there’s how YOU (parents) see your daughter and there’s how PERVERTS see your daughter (or son, for that matter). As a mother, I wouldn’t want my child wearing anything that might arouse some creep. The thought of it makes me ill. Personally, I would tend more towards unfashionable modesty, but that’s me.
Even as the west gives up on having children, preferring to avoid contraception, or kill them in the womb if necessary, they become obsessed with children in what appear to be very unhealthy ways …
At least those bikini wearing kids have been given life and sustenance by their mothers.
The obsession actually makes perfect sense following the perverse logic that spawns it. It is a moral rebellion, rejecting both the responsibility of adulthood and the innocence of childhood. In their place, they wish to establish a perpetual adolescence, where the party never ends and there are no responsibilities. They want to turn children into adolescents as quickly as possible and then freeze them there for life.
Liberty, is the right to choose how you live your life and how to raise your kids. I did not dress my daughters like this, but know many parents who did. We should stand and speak of what we believe is right, but when we ask government to MAKE it right, we play into the hands of the progressives who want their kind of ‘right’ all over our lives.
I would never argue that government should or could try and fix a problem like this.
I might have put one of my daughters into swimsuits as small as the first swimsuit, and they would have had expressions like the first girl. The girl in the other pictures looks like she’s trying to be sexy and I think that’s the difference here; she creeps me out. We tend toward tankinis and one pieces because you really do have to worry about pedophiles and I don’t want my girls being the ones targeted.
Dave, Dave, Dave, how many hours a week do you spend on sites and reading about pre-teeners and sex? I mean come on give us a WAG (wild ass guess). Do you ever reflect on that, wonder a little… Nah!
In your columns you don’t have opinions, you give proclamations as to the only way things are and can be. I wonder if the words rigid, even paranoid personality have any meaning to you.
You appear to think you know a great deal about “evil” and what men think, including boys ten years of age–I have to admit Dave you shocked me with that one. You purport to have a degree, if not an education, but have you never, I mean, never ever, heard of “projection?” It means, Dave, projecting onto others what you yourself think and feel. It’s a way of discussing things ‘about others’ that you dare not openly look at within yourself.
Your opinion of men is so like that of the rioting Muslim street thugs. They just can’t help themselves, they are over come with emotions… … …hurl!!!!! How interesting that you should use the word Taliban in reference to yourself, how revealing. Just for fun Dave, what is the difference between you and the Taliban? Certainly there is no difference in kind, only degree, you so much see that aching need to protect the sexes from each other, so where do you stop, what freedoms do you think you can grudgingly allow the rest of us, the unwashed, unreflective masses. Stalin, Mao, etc didn’t think we should be allowed any. How about you Dave, dare to give a list?
At what point do you stop, absolutely, find it morally wrong to go any further? Admit it Dave, the question has never even occurred to much less been thought through nor will you answer it in a meaningful way tonight; no doubt you are deep into another “troubling” girl site.
How much coffee have you had today? lol
Sigh, busted! But when I’ve had too much caffeine I sometimes can’t control myself and I want to riot in the streets but then I think, Nah, I’ll just wait for Dave and take it out on him. LOL
So where do you draw the line, then? What’s an example of a swimsuit or outfit that you would not let your own 8-year-old daughter go out wearing?
In my experience, it isn’t so much that the modern mommy wants to trick out her daughter, though some do, it is that the modern mommy is absolutely incapable of telling her child (ren) no. The popular culture and advertising reach out for the basest desires in children and the modern mommy simply cannot be an adult nor allow the man, if any, to be one either. Most men have given up on being adults. If I had to do it again, I would too; ain’t worth it to be the asshole of the “family.”
Men need to teach their sons how to pick women of good character! I see way too many comments like yours and I can only guess that men choose these women because they’re pretty? Women hardly ever suddenly become shallow after having kids, whereas they were sensible all during the courtship and engagement. My husband and I are pretty much in agreement on these things because he picked a sensible woman with some moral fiber. And that’s what I was looking for too.
In my own case, I learned the hard way that my wife can only talk the good fight; she and I could come to total agreement on how to deal with something and she’d melt at the first whine from a kid. I thought her enabling behavior was really a function of the demands of having been through a divorce and being a single mother for awhile and that with some stability things would sort out; they didn’t. It got worse and worse as the kids got older and the boys especially became more confrontational. If I got into a conflict with a kid, the Mommy Court of Appeals immediately convened and I usually lost; left her over it a couple of times. We got through it but only because I basically took the position that I didn’t care what they did so long as they didn’t do it to me or mine. She wouldn’t raise them and wouldn’t let me.
However, I know that my own circumstance is hardly unique from my knowlege of friends, co-workers, and subordinates’ circumstances and I think the key is largely that divorce is so common. My daughter from my first marriage has led a pretty normal and productive life so far. Though it was a troubled marriage, we managed to keep it together until the daughter was in her teens. The only friend or co-worker around my age who has never been divorced also managed to have two mentally healthy, normal kids that never developed much in the way of bad habits or engaged in bad behaviors. Everyone else I know has been divorced at least once and some several times and ALL of them have kids that have given them all sorts of problems. How many times I had to give somebody time off to go meet with the Juvy officials or go to court or take a few days to take a teenaged daugher to Seattle. Nobody even had to say the trip to Seattle was for an abortion (You could get an abortion in Juneau, but you wouldn’t dare if you were at all well-known because there were no secrets.) I even had to give employees a day or two off a couple of times because they wound up in jail over a domestic violence event with a kid. Alaska has one of those somebody has to go to jail DV laws so if you get in a conflict with a kid, all the brat has to do is tell the officer you made him/her afraid and off you go. Then the nice lesbian social workers get the kid in their grips and you’re facing restraining orders to keep you away from your own home because you wouldn’t let a kid watch TV or something. The schools are very good at giving the kids precise intructions on how to do this sort of thing.
My wife and I have more or less made it through raising kids, though I’ve accepted that “grown and gone” is a concept from the past; kids don’t really go away these days. I know I’d never do it again and if one of my friends were to come to me looking for advice about a relationship with a divorced woman with kids, I’d ask if the bio father were still alive. If he were, I’d tell my friend to sleep with her one more time for old times’ sake and run like Hell. I would strongly caution against having a relationship with a divorced woman with kids even if there is no bio dad in the picture. The reality is that if you’re a man older than say, mid-thirties, the single women available to you are more than likely divorced and have kids and marrying one is just a prescription for misery. If I had it to do over, I’d stick to supporting single mommies one dollar at the time and maybe stop off for a “massage” ocassionally.
We really need to reform divorce laws for couples with kids. “I need more space” shouldn’t be enough to tear up a family with kids and I think most of the societal problems we have with unsocialized behavior and poor academic and work performance are directly attributable to “broken” homes. How about “broken” homes for a quaint concept from the past; you can hardly call them broken any more when divorce is the normal state.
I’m a practicing Catholic so I’m 100% in agreement (omg, is that like the second time evah??!)
in the bekinis themeselves. If its acceptable for older women than why not kids. I think your alarm bells started ringing in reaction to the message and the attitude of this particular seller. The language of the seller seems to be trying to inculcate sexyness and the attractiveness of women in kids who should be worrying about just having fun. It’s similar to those beauty contests for kids.
As for trying to protect your kids, if it’s bekinis or a swimsuits, evil ain’t gonna differentiate. And it’s up to the parents to keep a wary eye out.
Personally I don’t think, that this is the main problem. (we have 3 boys and 2 girls) the girs had bikinis. But please. Are we talking about bikinis, when the Child beauty pageant is allowed. Anybody can see those poor little girls dressed like a grown up women, with makeup. I live in Europe and those beauty pageants seem perv and dangerous. Not the bikinis.
First, the girls are just standing there. Standing. Two have their hands on their hips. A fairly normal stance for anyone. There is nothing ‘sexy’ about their posing at all.
Second, these bathing suits are the same as every little girl bikini going as far back as I can remember–and, come to think of it, I’ve seen pictures of my mom in little kid bikinis from when she was a kid in the fifties. So putting a kid in a bikini is nothing new.
Third, as several people have pointed out, little girls often swim in shorts. They don’t have breasts. They look just like little boys.
Finally, Dave, have you considered seeking help? You post articles like this with some regularity–articles in which you see a sexualization of pre-pubescent girls. Your tone suggests that you see this as making them sexy and that you think this is wrong. Dave, while many of us may see these things as creepy–like what they do to pageant kids–there’s no ‘sexy’. At all. Your tone often inticates that you feel affonted at being confronted by images of little girls that have been made ‘sexy’. Perhaps you should talk to someone about why you feel a little girl in a bikini is sexy–most people don’t have those feelings, Dave.
So where do you draw the line, then? What’s an example of a swimsuit or outfit that you would not let your own 8-year-old daughter go out wearing?
Either times have changed, or our awareness of it has; I’m an abuse survivor so I’m sure I’m more attentive about it than others. But remember, back in the Fifties, Sixties, Seventies, parents sent their five-year old and older children outside in the summer and kids didn’t come back until suppertime because parents didn’t think they needed to worry about what might happen to the kids. You’d do that now?
The sexualization of children has become more acceptable (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/after-hhs-says-children-are-sexual-beings-psychologists-push-to-decriminalize-pedophilia/) , and even if nothing directly happens to a young girl in a bikini, there’s a not-ludicrously-low chance that she’ll end up on an international soft kiddie-porn site. There is NO way I’d let a daughter swim in just shorts.
Oh my, so a father’s alarm bells ring when he sees an obvious push to sexualize his daugher, and its an indication that HE has a problem?
No, YOU have the problem.
David Swindle is NOT a father. He might be one in ten or fifteen years, according to the article, but he is not a father now.
I am, however, and have dressed my daughters in bathing suits their mother thought were ‘cute’. One daughter’s favorite was a speedo one piece done in athletic style. The other liked frills. The suits were advertised in the same way as the ones being complanied about–with little girls either standing around or occasionally in ‘action poses’ with a beach backdrop in which they looked like stiff mannequins, again, much like the pictures above.
There is nothing sexual about those poses. There is nothing sexual about the suits.
Therefore, when someone gets livid over ‘sexualization’ of this nature, I start to wonder what they are seeing–if they, perhaps, are the one with the problem. Why does Davis Swindle, a man with no children, spend so much time looking for and ‘complaining about’ sexualized images of young girls?
And David, no, I will not tell you what would cross my ‘line’, suffice it to say that these suits, which would be comfortable in a Sears catalog, are not it.
I stand corrected on the fact that David doesn’t have a daughter, but that doesn’t mean he should have no opinion as to the obvious fact that clothes send messages, and that certain clohtes in certain contexts have messages that someone with a specific goal in mind would not want to send, and thus would affect the choice of clothes being worn. Someone selling into a specific demographic gets uncreative, copies a style that screams a certain message that he, and I, would find inappropriate coming from a pre-teen, he points it out, and He gets set upon by a huge raft of people whose argument that he’s a talaban consists of them posing leading questions, shoving answers into his mouth, then judging him based on the answers THEY PUT INTO HIS MOUTH.
Your comment on David’s selection of pictures reminds me of the swists and turns the media took of criticisms regarding a gay-pride parade held celebrating the presidential inauguration of a democrat. I forget if it was Clinton’s or Obama’s, but a panelist pointing out some of the more objectionable floats in that parade was shouted down when he started spelling out the acronyms of some of the organisations participating in that parade. When it was requested that a tape of the parade be shown to prove the point, the request was refused due to “decency standards”, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY maintaining that nothing indecent took place during the parade. The right hand literally had evidence that contradicted the position of the left hand, but refused to show it for a reason that was being denied by the left hand. Let David actually POST a picture where the lady on the right was a bit more frontal, proving his point that a pre-teen wearing same would clearly be communicating an undesireable message, and I can very easily imagine the tack that the comments from those with, ah, FLEXIBLE PRINCIPLES, would take. Given that, umm, FLEXIBILITY OF PRINCIPLE, I see why you don’t want to state any line at all either, because in the current climate (easy to see) drawing any line is an invitation to being painted by the same brush. Fratricide is such a sucky way to die.
Now, for something a bit more puzzling: if I come to this article via the side bar, I get a different set of comments than if I came to this article via the front page. Any idea why that is?
“David Swindle is NOT a father. He might be one in ten or fifteen years, according to the article, but he is not a father now.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Please review the commenting guidelines before continuing to comment.
“Why does Davis Swindle, a man with no children, spend so much time looking for and ‘complaining about’ sexualized images of young girls?”
I’ve made it very clear: I am a feminist who wants to raise a daughter some day and she’s not going to grow up to be like one of the pornstars I bump into when I take our dog out for a walk. I live in the San Fernando Valley. I see the pimp/prostitute culture every day. And parents need to be aware of it as it gets mainstreamed into American culture.
So I ask again: show me a swimsuit that you find objectionable and would not want your daughter wearing. Or are you unable to recognize the fashion of prostitute culture yet?
Hissy, hissy, hissy, you need to loosen your turban a little Dave.
David, informing PA that you’re not a father is NOT an ad hominem attack. It’s the simple truth.
You live in Porn Valley. OF COURSE you’re seeing porn culture. I don’t live in Porn Valley. I don’t “bump into” pornstars every day. Just like the vast majority of Americans. A little girl in a bikini is, to most of us, a little girl in a bikini. And she didn’t get it from Elizabeth Hurley. What lunatic would pay that much for a kids bathing suit? Instead, her parents got one just like Hurley’s expensive suits from Walmart–where they hang on racks by the millions–all without anyone having to mop up pedophile drool.
You are very persistant in wanting people to “show me a swimsuit that you find objectionable and would not want your daughter wearing”. I’ve told you what my daughters liked. Now I must tell you what I wouldn’t get them? Why? Why is knowing that so important?
Finally, are you planning on raising your children(you keep saying ‘daughter’–you’re very focused on the notion that your child will be a girl, why?) in the San Fernando Valley? Do you think your one man crusade on PJM will change the Valley in the next ten or fifteen years?
Referencing that I’m not a father as a way to disqualify my opinion is an ad hominem argument. It’s irrelevant that I’m not a Dad yet because there are people who are Dads who agree with me that their daughters should not dress like prostitutes..
“Why is knowing that so important?”
Because I’ve set a standard for a swimsuit that is inappropriate for my future daughter to wear while she’s a child. I might be wrong about where to draw the line. So show me where you draw the line instead. Tell me the kind of bathing suit fashion that you identify as acceptable for adult women wanting to attract male attention vs inappropriate for little girls who should never have their goal with their swimwear. BTW, see my follow up post on this? http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2012/09/20/the-difference-between-sexy-bikinis-and-slutty-thongs-and-why-little-girls-should-wear-neither/
“you’re very focused on the notion that your child will be a girl, why?”
Because my wife and I are used to the idea of thinking in terms of daughters because our Siberian Husky puppy Maura is a girl. And I have known many women who were damaged by the absence of having a good father in their lives — that inspires me to think in terms of how I will be there for my own future daughter. (The damage done to boys who don’t have their Dads present is surely just as painful — but this is not an experience I understand as much as girls growing up without their dads.) The gender of my future children is not important and I intend to be a father to both boys and girls.
“in the San Fernando Valley?”
If we’re still living here when they’re born then of course.
“Do you think your one man crusade on PJM will change the Valley in the next ten or fifteen years?”
I’m not trying to change the Valley nor am I waging a campaign against pornography. I’m just writing blog posts to try and get people to think about things differently.
Of the bikinis shown in the photos, the one on the left seems okay, the middle one is slightly less okay and the one on the right is too grownup. I don’t think any of them will make the kid a slut later on. They might attract adult attention, however, and why would anyone want their kid to attract adult attention.
…and do you notice how the same girl’s expression changes from the second to the third picture (which is the also at the top)? Gives me the heebie-jeebies.
Actually, the first girl’s expression is objectionable, since its a variation of subliminal messaging common to all advertising: they have to make a market for modest wear, otherwise it gets snapped up by Christian marketers, but they make darn sure that the message is transmitted that they disapprove of the moderate course.
Which, of course, is the entire fallacy of those opposing the “moderate” view: he’s staking out an area THEY claim they own, so they have to SLANDER and LIE about him and is position to push him out of the obviously moderate position. The real mullah-extreme is the burkini, something Dave didn’t even post or even suggest his daughter, or any woman, HAS to wear.
It may be true that boys will ogle a pretty girl in a gunny sack, but clothes send a MESSAGE. Cripes, is that too hard to fathom? Or is that an obvious truth that offends because “the wrong person” said it?
This is a tricky one for me, David, because I personally love bikinis. When my girls were babies, they both had them and now they are 6 and 3 they still do. I must admit that this summer I began to feel that my 6 year old should have more coverage than I had felt last year and before that so I got her a tankini. Two piece suits are the only way to go for young children who need to get to the bathroom quickly without hindrance. Also, maybe it’s my time spent in Hawaii as a kid but bathing suits are appropriate wear for the beach and pool. I don’t mind all kinds of bathing suits in the right setting (except thongs. Those are underwear.) I do insist on coverups when leaving the beach or pool. I saw a woman in a bikini top at the grocery store this summer…NOT ACCEPTABLE. But that same bikini on the beach wouldn’t bother me at all. The fact that there are degenerate men who would look at my babies in a degenerate way has nothing to do with what bathing suit they are wearing. It has to do with his sickness and pedophilia. My innocent children are not to blame for a sicko’s perversion. Modesty is a good thing to teach girls. But I don’t find bikinis immodest at the beach or pool. But if they try to wear one at prom….
I think the rule of thumb is this: if a particular swimsuit style would look sexy on a woman then a little girl shouldn’t wear it. I don’t oppose modest 2-piece suits for girls.
And yes — all about the different context making different behaviors appropriate. A woman wearing a bikini at the beach is one thing, at the grocery store is another.
But would love to see you explore this subject more in your own pieces at Lifestyle.
After looking at those photos again, I would definitely NOT let either of my girls wear that leopard bikini. Did you notice on the website they’ve replaced the photo of the girl with a mannequin wearing it? It’s way too grown up.