Home Church Pastor Jailed 60 Days for ’67 Zoning Violations’
The Salmans appear to have been hosting what is called a “house church.” All over the world, especially in countries where there is Christian persecution, churches begin in homes. In China, for example, every church must register with the government so they can be controlled or face persecution. As a result, countless home churches try to avoid being found out by the government. When discovered, they are disbanded and the pastor is imprisoned. Sound familiar?
Many theological issues arise when one tries to defined what is and isn’t a church. For example, Christians believe the people are a church and not the building. And who decides when a Bible study is an official church gathering? And who decides when that gathering on private property is declared a church in need of 67 zoning regulations? We now know.
Regardless of what Christians believe, the government gets to declare when private property becomes a church building and must therefore follow multiple regulations that would not be necessary for a non-religious gathering.
In one interview, Pastor Salman made this position clear:
If I had people coming to my home on a regular basis for poker night or Monday Night Football, it would be permitted. But when someone says to us we are not allowed to gather because of religious purposes, that is when you have discrimination.
I spoke with Olivia Streight, a house church member in a similar situation about 45 minutes outside of Phoenix. She told me:
We have a Bible study every week at our house and we have at least 40 people there. I know I don’t live in the same city he does. I just think the more we depend on the government/state officials to handle our situations, the more they are going to step in and one day we are not going to have any choice in anything.
The key question is, even if this is a house church, does the government have the right to hold it to the same code and zoning laws as big-building churches? Following such rules would force untold small-house churches to close down all over the country. And if government has this right, why do only religious gatherings receive such government oversight and not other secular gatherings like game nights or home-based business gatherings?
making this kind of stand is going to get more difficult. Where can I send $ to support the family while he is in jail?
http://christiandefense.chipin.com/michael-salman-defense
This is the link the Salman family has provided for their defense. They have said any extra money will be given to charity.
If it were a home mosque or a gay pride sodomy party, the local authorities would bring pizzas.
Wait, the government brings free pizzas to gay pride sodomy parties? What are we waiting for!?!?
heh heh …. a sausagefest?
When I saw the headline to this article, I automatically assumed it was about this arrest… in Urumqi, Xinjiang, China.
in http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/951620145.html
I was quite shocked to learn it was in the land of the (so-called) free and home of the brave.
The real disconcerting thing? After teaching almost nine years in China (and yes, I’d been to a number of these hidden house church meetings, and the ones controlled by their Religious Affairs Bureau), I’m returning home to America to stay. I’d dreamed of how much happier I’d be to have the freedoms that I only had a few weeks out of the year during the Spring Festival break. And that I didn’t have to watch I said on the phone or wrote in my texts or e-mails out of fear of compromising a fellow churchgoer and subjecting them to arrest, deportation of the expats, or worse, imprisonment for the locals.
Now it’s happening here.
Looks like my fellow believers and I have a lot to work on, and pray for. To paraphrase Henrik Ibsen in “Enemy of the People,” I’d sure hate to fly halfway around the world, only to find I’m still in the same place.
You misunderstand the meaning of the national anthem.
The last two lines are a question, not a declarative sentence.
The pertinent question is how many people were attending Mr. Salman’s Bible study. Your rights are not unlimited, they end at the point the interfere with another’s rights. Zoning laws exist for a reason; they allow for an equitable use of everyone’s property. For example, Ms. Streight’s Bible study means her neighbors have to deal with an additional two dozen or so cars every week. Building codes also differentiate between private structures like sheds or workshops and public structures like shops or churches for similar reasons.
If the size of Mr. Salman’s group in on the same order of magnitude as Ms. Streight’s this is not a religious liberties issue. The fact that they’re getting together to bother God does not absolve them of their requirements to obey the legitimate requirements of the secular world.
Give it a rest Jeffie. You have the neighborhood Nazi script down.Do you feel the same way about Christmas gatherings or graduation parties in neighborhoods, that they bring too many cars in? Busybody nannies like you are who empowers local tyrants to tramp on peoples freedoms. Maybe you can set up a neighborhood marshal service and report suspicious gatherings to the authorities like they do in China and Viet Nam.
If churches are specifically targeted with different zoning laws than other private gatherings the city is explicitly discriminating against Christians and other religious observers and we have an equal protection issue.
Case closed.
zoning laws are cowards way to impose their desires on others.
on my property I will do whatever I want and shoot anyone that tries to stop me.
A) The article is wrong – the guy has a 4.5 acre lot – almost 5 acres.
B) He Built a rec room (multi-purpose) so he could seat his guests more comfortibly. There is no way it was a church. It’s also easy to find out – Did he file for tax exempt status? If no – he’s not a church nor did he intend to be.
C) Since it’s a five acre lot he is bothering no one – parking or otherwise.
Question to you – if it was a Superbowl party would raiding it be ok with you? If it was a family BBQ and the family happened to say Grace before they ate should they expect a SWAT Team?
In regards to the number of his guests, it was 10-12. As in 6 couples.
He did indeed register his property as a church, and became tax exempt. The following link confirms this. We were duped as well and said many things supporting him and complaining to government officials UNTIL we saw the actual proof of the truth, the Maricopa County Assesor’s page See here: http://www.bkennelly.com/vox/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Capture1-1024×618.jpg See that he hasn’t paid taxes since then: http://treasurer.maricopa.gov/Parcel/Summary.aspx Or read the whole the story here: http://networkedblogs.com/zMQbT Salman cannot have it both ways, a church when it benefits him for taxes, and a home when he is facing fines for not getting building permits for said church, and for refusing to bring it up to code. (yes I said refusing) When this all washes out, Christians as a whole will once again get the defamation of character from one man’s poor choices. And to top it off, he and his family are collecting donations from well meaning people, based on his “persecution”.
Well they should put up lots of Amway signs, no police officer would willingly go to an Amway meeting.
Being persecuted and imprisoned for Christ is a good thing. The Lord has blessed him.
If his home is not a church, why did he file papers to have it declared a TAX FREE church. Arizona is crawling with people pushing weird ‘religions’. I would complain if it were in my neighborhood.
I agree with “Jeff Gauch”, who clearly points out the problems this so-called “pastor” created with his “gatherings”. And I think that the authorities are correct in trying to suppress this sort of hidden activity. Look, religion affects us all. Look how these crazy “right-to-life” nuts are always trying to make womyn second class beings. We need to know who and where such people meet. If only to protect the sacred rights of everyone else, lest we face persecution. That’s why we need to impose more stringent zoning laws that target so-called churches. And let me say further that I agree with Jeff Gauch’s statement that these crazies are essentially “bothering” god. You’re correct Mr. Jeff Gauch, these people bother the REAL god….Mother Earth, with their people focused gatherings, where pollution and selfishness reign supreme. This is another reason that I (and I assume Mr. Jeff Gauch) support a Chinese-style “one baby” policy.
Please identify if you are writing parody.
LovelyEarth posts parody. I know you’ve been a regular on pjmedia for a while; I’m surprised you didn’t recognize that yet.
Let’s see, unwarranted assumptions, logical fallacies, and blatant rationalizations. You, sir, “think” like a liberal (that is to say, poorly).
There’s no need for the quotes, that’s actually my name. I feel no need to hide behind a pseudonym like some idiots.
Since you’re obviously mentally challenged let me spell it out for you. Mr. Salman is in jail not because he had a large religious gathering on his property. He is in jail because he had a large recurring gathering on his property. If Mr. Salman wanted to pray in his own house that would be fine. If he wanted to have a few friends over every week for Bible study that would be fine as well. Even an occasional large gathering would be OK. But at some point the number of people attending the gathering rises to the level at which it impacts the rights of his neighbors. At that point it is right and proper that the government step in to safeguard everyone’s rights. That is, in fact, the raison d’etre (that would be French for “reason for existence,” am I going too fast for you?) of government. The problem is that specific point at which a group becomes burdensome to others depends on where the group is meeting. In my small condo complex the number would be around 6. Over in the suburbs that number might rise to around 20. My cousin’s farm could support dozens of people. The two factors most necessary to make a judgment are missing from this article. It is far closer to propaganda than reporting.
Mr. Salman is most likely not being oppressed for his religious views. On the contrary, it seems that he is the oppressor. A petty tyrant using his faith to deprive his neighbors of the enjoyment of their just property.
If this person were holding a weekly sports watching party, what permits would he need? Sports are on every week, and I could easily have over 30 friends for each weeks’ game.
What if I told all my friends that they can host their children’s birthday parties at my place whenever they want, and as a result, I have a party every week in my home, what permits are required then?
If you had scores of people at your house every week for sporting events or parties you would be running an entertainment activity out of your house and would need the appropriate permits. In fact, you would probably be denied in most residentially-zoned areas. The City of Phoenix has said that churches can be built in any zone, they just have to meet the applicable building codes. In that case religious activities receive preferential treatment under their zoning laws.
Again, religion does not give you carte blanche (LovelyEarth, that’s another French term meaning white sheet, or a blank check) to ignore mundane laws.
The letters from the city to the family never mentioned a designation that it was a church or that the were too many people. All they mentioned was that there was a bible study happening and this was enough to warrant hoop jumping and code violations. That’s what’s bull about this. They may now be saying its about the building, but from the beginning all that made the city come down on them was that there was a bible study happening in their home at all, in their own words.
They should never have been forced to build a separate structure.
lame. I would agree with you if the city had a zoning code stating you could not have recurring events in excess of X times per year, with groups greater than X number of people. Clearly, they will need to do so, in order not to discriminate in the future.
You can thank yourself for setting the precedent when your local bureaucrats insist you purchase a permit for each and every gathering over X number of people at your home. They will need to keep track of all events so they can know when they can throw you in jail if your family has one to many get-togethers and annoys a neighbor.
Probably had an illegal lemonade stand, too. Criminals like this deserve no mercy. Maybe they’ll release a couple of gang-bangers to make room in the jail for this guy.
His meetings were of less than twenty people and his house sits on over an acre and a half, with plenty of room for parking. There is youtube video of his neighbor’s football parties with the street full of cars, which other neighbors testify is a regular event. If Bro. Salmon were not being singled out for his faith this would not be an issue! Furthermore, simple internet research has led me to information of a growing Muslim influence in Phoenix local government…
Wow! You got Grinch…er…Gauch to bite! Well played!
I read a very similar story about a home church raided in Saudi Arabia. Weird place these days America. The law can pretty much do whatever they want once they’ve focused on you. They’ll just find a law to suit and ram it. Hard to believe this is in anyway threatens anyone. Even if it’s against the law, why not just ignore it? It’s called decriminalization or in liberal terms, sanctuary cities, OWS and whatever else they want to do.
I’m disappointed that this story pits Salman against unnamed “authorities” and the “local government.” What are the names of the bureaucrats who are making these decisions? City or county? What departments? Did the police department participate in the raid, or was it only code enforcement officers?
When government officials behave outrageously, identify them, specifically and publicly.
Also,what are the names of zoning officials and badge punks involved in this? They should enjoy a fair trial and public execution for their misconduct under color of authority.
Zoning laws have reasons. Religion is not a free pass to do anything anywhere. French Moslems have taken to blocking streets for mass “prayer sessions”. Why? Not out of piety, but to assert control of public spaces – and because if the authorities intervene, they’re “persecuting Moslems for praying”.
Salman could hold all the “Bible study classes” he wanted in a commercial space. He has to respect the right of his neigbors not to have large numbers of people gathering in a residential area.
I don’t know that Salman is deliberately provoking these reactions, but I have serious doubts about his motives.
Rich, I couldn’t agree with you more. As a fellow atheist, I see the reasoning behind our argument clearly. And let’s not forget that we can use zoning laws to essentially batter those who would strip us of our right not to believe in a fairy tale.
Rich Rostrum did NOT say that he is an atheist. It’s wrong for you to assume he is without a shred of evidence. Mr. Rostrum may well find that offensive.
And let’s not forget that we can use zoning laws to essentially batter those who would strip us of our right not to believe in a fairy tale.
As for this little gem, what has happened to threaten ANYONE’s right not to believe in a “fairy tale”? (Apparently, you are designating Christianity as a fairy tale.) It’s your right to believe or disbelieve anything you want. The treatment given to Mr. Salman does nothing to change that.
For what it’s worth, I am an atheist but I’m not the kind that disparages other people’s belief. I choose not to believe in a deity but I have no more proof for the non-existence of a deity than religious people have for the existence of their god. Therefore, I don’t condemn them for their faith that there is a god. I hope they respect my faith that there is no god.
Hey Einstein brother earth was using sarcasm. I know its a big word ,look it up.
Gimme a break “Lovely Earth”, you’re not an atheist, you’re a Gaia worshipper. And a Magogist. Your end is in sight, I don’t sweat you.
Jeff…I don’t give a rodent’s rectum how intelligent you think you are. The Constitution states that there is to be NO, (you DO understand NO, right?) prohibition on the Free Exercise of religion.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
The states can’t do it either. It’s not in the powers considered to be enumerated to the several states.
Furthermore, if the Fed and the States aren’t allowed to do it, NEITHER IS ANY LOCAL JURISDICTION. IN other words, these people have a nice fat lawsuit just waiting. Mr. Seculow, where are you?
the states do not have enumerated powers, the federal government does. the states have full sovereign authority, the federal government is forbidden to act outside the enumerated powers by the ten amendment.
So long as Salman’s guests are not trespassing on the neighbors’ property, they have no right to complain.
They would certainly have a right to complain if Salman and his guests were monopolizing the common property.
Some actual facts on the situation:
http://phoenix.gov/news/071212salmanfacts.html
This process has been ongoing for nearly 6 years. At every turn the government has acknowledged and affirmed Salman’s right to worship. Just a frequently Salman has ignored his obligations to his congregation.
Their study or services or whatever don’t take up parking and the like–the lot is very large and they have space to park in back, also, the neighborhood is really sparse. This isn’t like your next neighbor has his house starting fifteen feet from your own. I can’t even see the neighbors. So common property nuisance issues also isn’t the problem.
Jeff, thank you for the link to the City of Phoenix’s page about this guy. There has been a lot of shrill bleating about this issue on local radio too, but the facts have been scarce. Apparently Salman told the city he was building a big game room, but then advertised it and used it as a church, and refused to comply with building codes after being asked repeatedly to do so. If he had just built a church that was up to code in the first place, there would be no problem. But he lied and didn’t comply with the law, so he’s in jail. This isn’t about religious freedom. It’s about being a scumbag for the past few years so he can get his name on the TV news. He has a long history of scumbagginess: http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2012/07/09/pastor-michael-salman-not-going-to-jail-for-preaching-but-for-failing-to-obey-the-law/
Okay Rich. How would you feel about this situation? Mrs. Rich Rostrum is a quilting enthusiast. Each week she has about 40 ladies visit her home so as to share in their mutual love of quilting. What zoning regulations has Mrs. Rich Rostrum violated? Answer: As long as the quilters don’t pray to God then apparently none. Have I got that about right?
Amazing story, horrific. He should sue them for damages, because he did not break the law.
I was in code enforcement with a county fire Dept. The Uniform Building Code is the ‘bible’ of building codes. A city may have stricter codes but may not lessen the U.B.C.. I, as a fireman, would make sure that the occupancy rated building was in compliance after it was occupied. A person would get a permit to ‘sell’ motorcycle parts but would also repair motorcycles. That is illegal because it was ‘built’ to have flamables in the building. The ‘rec room’ is on private property. It was clasified as an R-1 by the city when it was built. It would not be inspected because it is ‘NOT PUBLIC’.
All of the 7 or 8 cars were parked on private property. Not on the street. There is no code violation it is the inspection that is illegal. A city can charge for a permit to build and the city building inspector is charged with, based on occapancy as defined by the UCB, give it an occupancy rateing. This structure was not rated an A-1 or even a B occupancy (business)which is what a ‘structure with a occupancy of over 100 and ‘open to the public’! There would be in the city of Phenox many neighborhood churchs in ‘strip malls’. They do not need an A-1 rating because the structure was built to a B-1 occupancy. Either 49 or less or a B-2, 50 to 100. The difference is number of exists.
Since this structure is on private property and built to the code specification of a garage the city has broken the law by calling it, after construction, to be an A-1 occupany, the same as would be required for Notre Dame. And worship and prayer does not ‘bother’ God.
I was in such a fit I couldn’t even proof read first. ‘The building “was NOT built” to store or use flammables. It is the UBC (uniform Building Code) not the “UCB”. Short story the city is not infallable and should be brought to code.
“Short story the city is not infallable and should be brought to code.”
–
I’m not sure you’re over your fit yet. What are you saying? How can a city “be brought to code?”. Are you saying the home-owner is violating the building code or that the city is violating the code by inspecting him inappropriately?
Your argument belies your conclusion. According to the city, the structure was permitted as a private game room. It was then used as a public church. By your logic I could get around building ordinances simply by saying my store was being built as private shop. Much like your example of the “parts shop” that also does repair work, the stated intent of a building is immaterial. What is important is how it is actually used.
According to the city “upwards of 80″ participants attended the services at times. Only if the congregation consisted of clowns could that many people could fit into 7 or 8 cars.
Finally, you said that cities could be more restrictive than the UBC. Requiring private facilities used as public facilities to meet public codes is, in fact, more restrictive. The city has done nothing illegal.
Jeff, if the city indeed permitted the structure to be a ‘private game room’ i.e. a not-for-profit dwelling, then what the Pastor’s doing is legit.
Your hypothetical ‘store’ is/would be a for-profit structure and thus illegal.
You can try to paint this anyway you like. The more-than-likely scenario is a few of the Pastor’s neighbors who are either Atheist, Agnostic or of another faith had grown tired of those of the Christian faith gathering, possibly singing, etc., and the city had to get creative to appease these candy-ass neighbors.
These neighbors couldn’t be honest, forthcoming and address the Pastor. Nope, they’re cowards who hide behind mundane, albeit creative ‘laws’.
I’m glad of commenter Snarky’s stance.
I liken it to Evelyn Beatrice Hall’s quote, ‘I disapprove with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it’.
The same sentiment for you, Jeff. Even when using your sanctimony, ad hominem, better than thou demeanor. You must be a real lonely dude.
2ndly Jeff Gauch, your earlier pontificating I noticed your punctuation of the French word, ‘raison d’être’ is incorrect. yet you’d used the incorrect punctuation when referring to others NOT using their actual names as, ‘..idiots’. Interesting.
Odd you’d missed the ‘Circonflexe’ or ‘^’ considering the lineage of your last name. Again we know it’s your last name because you, ‘..feel no need to hide behind a pseudonym like other idiots’.
Nonetheless thanks for your time and gross inability to discuss issues with those you differ with.
The purpose of building codes isn’t to regulate commerce, it’s to provide for public safety. A private game room is only going to have a few people in it regularly, perhaps on occasion a couple dozen. As such there would be a much lower number of exits necessary to evacuate the occupants if necessary. If the building is instead regularly used to house scores of people the odds of an evacuation that would overwhelm the exits would greatly increase. It doesn’t matter if those people are there to give the owner money, sing kumbayah, or finger-paint. If there had been a fire, or even the scare of a fire, and someone had gotten injured I guarantee one of those “good, Christian folk” would have gotten a lawyer and gone after the city for failure to enforce the building codes.
It wasn’t ignorance, it was efficiency (laziness, if you will). Compare the number of keystrokes required for a circumflex to the number required for an “e”. And, if you please, my ancestors came from the other side of the river than the cheese eating surrender monkeys.
This wasn’t a safety issue, the early letters to the family made no issue of size, only that bible studies were happening at all.
jeff, Did you read the article, or did you just skim it and then spew your lack of insight? It is a private gathering, not open to the public.
No parking issues, no noise issues, and it’s not a church. And you cheer on your own future loss of freedom from city bureaucrats because you don’t like the book they are reading. Mind your own business – nanny freak.
If liberals had their way the addage of “Justice is blind” would be changed to “Justice is so f#cking blind”…
If this were a tupperware party, direct marketing meetings, ladies garden club, or volunteer fire association, than there would be no problem. Hey, does being an atheist give you license to promulgate childish positions and lie?
Excuse me while I go hold a protest for a month or two on public property against all those people with excess money – who are guilty of having excess money – while I am not yet legally allowed to take it from them, …and NOT go to jail, unless, you know, I get caught on tape throwing a broken bottle at a cop, which I’m prone to do when I am or am not smoking my herbs, which make me think smarter. You never know…
That’s a really excellent comparison.
Christians and Jews are intensely hated by ruling elites. There is only one religion that has the approval of ruling elites: The totalitarian, POLITICAL-Religious system of ISLAM.
Interesting.
Funny how our fundamental rights, our True rights, such as the freedom of expression, freedom of religion and the right to bear arms, et al, are increasingly scrutinized. Those rights are now constantly required to be defended, explained and justified. Our basic truths are under constant siege.
Yet, somehow, we get new rights that were never rights before, e.g. the right to cross our borders and receive free benefits, the right to take money from the public troth for not working, the right to ‘free’ medical care, etc, etc, etc.
It’s an interesting country we live in now. What was right is now wrong and what was bad is now good. Interesting times indeed….
He was collecting tithes and claiming tax exempt status. To that end, he’s functioning as a church. This is a non-issue.
I agree. Most of the posters here should follow the link and read the Tuscon Citizen article. From the article:
“Salman and his wife have not paid taxes on the property since an inspector from the Maricopa County Assessor’s Office approved Salman’s request to have the property classified as a church in 2008.”
This is a church. The Bible is very clear that, on these types of issues, Christians must submit to civil authority. I am sympathetic to home churches, but Salman needs to follow the law.
Uh-ah! I don’t believe it. Just like the Boston Globe said Romney was at Bane for YEARS while the NYT said they are full of crap, so I believe this article is full of it.
I’ve seen this story in several papers and NONE of them has said anything about this building being declared a church, that the paster applied for church exemption or that he collected tithes.
This is some made up story so people like you will lynch this man. Yu are being lied to.
I have been a commercial real estate broker in the UK, Canada and the USA for 30 plus years in various jurisdictions. It is quite common now to see parking requirements & zoning definitions used to disqualify houses of worship in residential neighborhoods. Many houses of worship in older parts of a city could be “LEGAL NON CONFORMING”: as long as the use continues it is OK, but stringent requirements to retain the definition make is difficult to sell, renovate, or expand the building with its zoning in tact.
Of course, this runs flat out against the history of human development. Houses of worship were some of the FIRST buildings to “service” a community: that, the tavern and the blacksmith! Think about the traditional village.
Zoning and planning is a relatively recent field which came out of the huge government expansion post WW II. Like other social management fields of endeavor, it derives its theoretical basis from sociology.
It is noteworthy that in the US, zoning enforcement seems to over ride constitutional provisions against unreasonable search. Every US municipal code I’ve ever perused makes it clear that a search warrant is NOT required for a code enforcement official to gain entry to a property, denial of which allows the officer to call for police back up. Surprise “walk arounds” on a property (not requiring entry inside) are the customary tool of enforcement officials: personnel with immense police power and no restraint (that I can see). In many towns, they act on “anonymous information”: the classic tool of the totalitarian state that allows your neighbors to cause trouble for you. I have caught them peering into basement windows and engaging in many other “peeping” behaviors that in a civilian person could result in charges. I have caught municipally employed meter readers hundreds of feet away from the meter area and access routes looking around. Were they spying out the security for confederates who perform theft? I wouldn’t be surprised.
I would love to see some competent lawyers tell us more about the legal basis for their seemingly un American unlimited power. Truly “code enforcement” is a blight on the US justice system.
That UK reference and the last paragraph but one is, alas, all too common th the UK these days. What often happens is that some ‘townie’ moves into a small village, and then complains of this, that, or the other that has gone on for years. if not from time immemorial. A common one is church bells – these get declared ‘a staturoty nuisance’. An example is SW England was a crowing cockerel, while another on eastern England was a village blacksmiths that had been there for 200 years – the newcomers wanted it to stop using its angle grinder, not just at weekends but all week. The most annoying thing is that if yoy do stop, then you cannot afterwards claim ‘continuous use’.
Regarding those ‘Peeping Toms’ that he mentions, we still have in England two laws on the statute book that could(theoretically) be invoked agains such people. One is the Justices of the Peace Act of 1361 and a more recent law aimed at ‘voyeurs’. Both are basically aimed at ‘conduct likely to cause a breach of the peace’. Sounds like you need such your side of the pond.
I would be very interested in some hard-hitting journalism regarding this situation because the city’s website tells a very different story of a man repeatedly pushing the line of what he knew to be the law regarding building on his property. If the facts are as they’ve been reported here, then obviously this is a serious problem. But if this is a guy trying to have his cake and eat it too and cry foul at the government because he wears the label “Christian”, then he’s just creating unrest and we’re all foolishly falling in. I’m not trying to take any sides because I don’t see that I’ve been privy to enough info to take a side.
Agenda 21
I have been to his house and the Bible studies. It really is a church its not just Bible studies. they meet every Sunday morning, there are tithes, offerings, deakons, the whole bit. Some stories stretch the truth.
You are a liar. Other people who have attended his bible studies have already contradicted you. You are one person against at least half a dozen that are calling you a liar.
As a Christian, I must defend the county’s position and the church’s position, which are the same. Christians must submit to civil authority (Romans 13). The only caveat to that is if the civil authority orders a Christian to do something that is against the laws of God (i.e., forced to perform abortions, or to deny beliefs). None of this applies in this instance.
As many have said already, he acted as if this were a church by claiming tax exempt status and therefore, he is not being honest. Furthermore, it is just common courtesy not to encroach on neighbors by having cars parked out on the streets every week.
Christians, this in not biblical what this man is doing and to defend him would not be a good witness to Christ.
Point of clarification: No cars were parked in the street. They had parking on their private property within their fence.
According to other sources you are not giving correct information.
Wait… if his property is a church, was the government illegally taxing it?
Maybe that jail cell needs a few more occupants?
Read the Tucson Citizen article. He applied for and received tax-exempt status. It is too late to be claiming that they are not a church.
Your one source does not match at least three others that I’ve seen. Two of which were hostile to this man. If he had “tax exemtption” do you not think they would have GLOATED over that fact?
You have quite a bit of hostility toward people who disagree with you, and you’re rather quick to label others “liars”. You probably aren’t achieving your goal of convincing the fence-sitters to support the Harvest Community Church.
I see this entire incident as being purely a Fire Life Safety Issue. In most communities, it is the responsibility of the home owner, to be aware of the rules & regulations in their respective communities and ignorance of the law is no excuse. In my opinion, being a retired Fire Safety Inspector for a State University in Southwestern Ohio, had the home owner taken as few minutes of his time to check the zoning laws, building & fire code laws, established a working relationship with the Code Enforcement Officials (building & fire), prior to conducting his “in house gatherings,” the home owner would not be sitting in jail right now and all the “spin doctors” on both sides of this incident would be out of a job!
I’ve been a builder too, Mr. Porter in two big North American cities.
Tell me, Sir: How much did it cost applicants for inspection approvals to “established a working relationship with the Code Enforcement Officials (building & fire)” — i.e. your non-university affiliated colleagues, in that town in southwestern Ohio?
In Ontario, Canada up until about 12 years ago it was common knowledge that if you were a city sponsored non-profit organization running on grants you didn’t have to apply for variances etc. If you were “Joe Blow” or “Joe Church” you got to jump through hoops. That was until the City of Toronto got sued and non profits throughout Ontario had to do what everyone else does.
The last US based inspector who tried to work me over for a contribution to his retirement fund is doing hard time now. Let’s have some straight forward talk, Sir, about what it takes to establish that relationship, OK?
So, when he built the 2000 square foot Harvest Community Church on his 1.5 acre lot zoned residential, he told the county that it wasn’t going to be a church but was going to be a game room: he lied “for the sake of the Kingdom”? At the time, the county warned him that if it was going to be a church, it had to be zoned for that and it would need more exits and meet specific fire codes. And now, somewhere between 67 and 85 people attend Harvest Community Church (capacity 100) each week. The neighbors aren’t happy because he’s been such a jerk; nor would I be, if one of my neighbors suddenly had 65-85 people over every week for ANYTHING: quilting, poker, Pampered Chef, Amwaycult, stripper parties, motorcycle gang meetings. And so the neighbors found out that this inconsiderate jerk was deceitful and his weekly group violated building codes so they sicced the county on him. Huh. We have just over an acre here. It’s not as big as you’re thinking, and I’m guessing that if one of your neighbors had 60-85 people over every week for some kind of gathering, you’d be annoyed too.
I do worry about the government encroaching on us, but it’s self-righteous guys like this and Fred Phelps that provide a popular excuse for the government to step in. He isn’t helping.
“quilting, poker, Pampered Chef, Amwaycult, stripper parties, motorcycle gang meetings”
That sounds like an awesome party.
lol. A heads-up: when the quilters start stripping, it’s time to make your polite excuses and run not walk for the nearest exit. All the wrong people are nudists, ya know?
The 1st amendment of the American Constitution wraps up in one fell swoop the antithesis of the how and why the right to advocate a conspiracy is the highest form of dissent. And that freedom as an inherent right of our citizenry is an empty shibboleth, without the ability to aggressively advocate for conspiracy. Proselytizing religionist call it witnessing. The ultimate conspiracy to witness: that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead after spending 3 days and three nights (72 hours) in the grave. Then the individual who believes (faith) and confesses that in their mind and heart that it is true, is thus saved from death and forgiven of all ones sins by Christ,s sacrifice for humanity on the cross at Calvary. That conundrum which is personal faith which coalesced in each of the individual lives of the leadership and the founders of this nation. Has been gutted and rendered like an animal carcass into something called the *law* (see Old Testament) which has left every citizen at the mercy of the attorneys (see SCOTUS) and sundry levels of the lawyerly class and their pronouncements private public and civil. As our culture drifts oh so quickly into Babylon don’t weep, for that grace (God,s unmerited favor) still abounds. We can still conspire and this conspiracy I allude too is still the one that was and is the basis of what this country is all about. God works in mysterious ways.
This isnt as cut and dry of an issue as it appears:
http://networkedblogs.com/zN6Hd
Its true he built the ”game room” so he can hold his church services and slip through the cracks. Just so he didn’t have to follow the rules and have it labeled a ”church”. And please don’t say this is not a church it had everything that any other churches have. Even a ten foot sign on his front lawn that lights up and says Harvest Christian Faith, that weekly is updated with Bible verses and updates of the church.
Please, Paul Cooper, do a little more investigative work before writing next time. Just Google it. I’m almost as ashamed of the biased mis-reporting you’ve done here as I am that a so-called believer like Michael Salman has so blatantly mis-characterized and mis-represented his long-standing legal problems with a city. He’s in jail because he’s again violated court orders. Ninety six times. After having multiple chances to make corrections. Sometimes the judge needs to make a point. The decision has nothing to do with religion. It’s all about civil disobedience. A brother chooses that route he’s got to be man enough to pay the penalty. I don’t see that in Salman. He’s wiggling and sneaking and evading citizenship. Not much of an example, unless he’s preaching salvation through anarchy.
Btw, does a posted sign on Salman’s property change it from a small group “bible study” to some type of religious meeting room? I think maybe it does. Believers need to tell a brother to man up and give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto G…….
So many busy bodies who can’t get their noses out of everyone elses underwear. First they say it is about the parking, the noise, then the fire codes and then whatever else “The Children(TM) need. And when all that turns out not to be the real problem, they just resort to claiming that they JUST KNOW it is a church because the attendees donate a few bucks to the group cause. What is the saying, opinons are like a^^holes? Or is it, your uninformed opinions came out of your a^^ and stink?
Cranky old prudes calling the police because they’ve grown so sour and self-righteous in their old age. bleh….
There is nobody more petty or personally vindictive than some nobody city councilor with nothing better to do.
Their persecution is not so much the act of of “govt.” but more likely just two or three people like maybe the Mayor, a city councilor and a zoning board member who go into a rage when they think they are not thought of as god to the little people. So…they punish him.
If he does not conform they will bankrupt him all on the city dime while he has to fight back at his expense.
They are nasty people.
At every proceeding he will be the only one in the room not being paid too be there. Then they will just seize his property when he has no more money to fight back.
The key question is not: “Does the government have the right . . . .”, but: “Does the government have the power [for that purpose, or to be used in this way]“; because, governments are invested not with rights, but with power, only.
And as to whether a Church or no, the decisive factor is: “At the meetings, is money collected, or solicited?”—is your group trafficking under the aegis of, or in connection with, the commercial power?
When we built a new parish church, we had similar zoning problems with a parking lot driveway that bordered on a residential street. There were no fines, no long feuds with the neighbors, no scandalized pastors. The anti-Catholic media tried its best to create all of the above, but reaching out to the neighborhood and putting up a gate that came open only for Sunday masses solved the problem pretty quickly.
If this guy filed to register as a church, then it was he who reached out to the government for “special attention.” I suspect this scandal is being distorted by righties and lefties for their agendas. This man is probably in jail for not rendering unto Caesar that which he agreed to render when he filed for government recognition and tax free status. We need to remember that – regardless of feelings or interpretations – tax free status is a conscious choice that enables a church to keep resources that will facilitate dealing with things like zoning and traffic issues. You can’t have it both ways. A church should be a good neighbor or move to where neighbors aren’t an issue.
I am curious.
Have any reputable civil rights law firms (e.g. Becket, Alliance, Rutherford, or ACLJ) representing Michael Salman?
Never mind, I just realized the story had 3 pages. When I expand to see all the pages, I see that John Whitehead of the Rutherford Institute is representing Salman.
If this were any other other business would most of you be okay with 80 people showing up to your neighbors house a couple times a week? He purchased his home in a residential area where people don’t want large groups of people and THEY complained to the city. They have rights to and purchased homes in a residential area with zoning to avoid this type of activity. He received multiple warnings and ignored them. No sympathy from me. Put the church where they are allowed.