@Patrick,
“You’ve basically “cherrypicked” the sayings from the Koran and the Sirah and haven’t bothered to include what is said around the verses and in which context they are used.”
— I provided the book and verse. You are free to figure out the context yourself. Seeing as how you challenged me to provide you with an instance in which Muslim texts called Jews monkeys, and that I answered that challenge, I wonder what mental block you have going which won’t give credit where credit is due. Today, some of the biggest, richest, and most influential Wahabi mosques (many of whom are based in Europe these days) have Imams whose preaching focuses on these specific tracts. The Haditha is full of legal interpretations of these texts. Those popular Muslim leaders consider these euphemisms as derogatory and as rational for hatred of Jews. Now you are free to interpret Muslim texts as you wish but there is little interest in your interpretations. What is of interest is how Muslim orthodoxy interprets them.
“You’ve accused the Muslims as being responsible for the Plague and economic down turn in the Fertile Crescent and Europe.”
— I never wrote the Plague using capitals. I wrote plague, little p, as the medicine and sanitation of the Muslim world, in the early part of the 20th century, was far below the standards of Europe in those days. It facilitated a major outbreak of plague. It also facilitated the spread of Malaria, TB, Cholera and many other communicable diseases. The LAnd of Israel suffered from these diseases and it wasn’t until the “European” Jews came with their modern understanding of science that these diseases were overcome. The Arabs, btw, benefited from this as well. Its considered pretty nice to not die of Cholera.
My quote was, “You can blame the Muslims for the plague, the economic depression, the agricultural stagnation, the meager population, the lack of education and the basic backwardness of the Land of Israel that the Ottoman’s ruled over.”
—You see, I wrote that I was specifically talking about the Land of Israel during Ottoman rule. Why is it that you are ignoring some informative portions of sentences I am writing for you? Do you have concentration problems? Personally I think you have a mental block. I never in all my writing said that Jews suffered any more then anyone else. I never used that suffering as a reason for the existence of the State of Israel. I never suggested that the Turks harbored any special hatred for the Jews. I never discussed the razing of Jerusalem and yet, you attribute these ideas to me. I would like to understand why that is. If you give me a compelling reason then I’ll accept it and might have some sympathy for your struggles to understand me. As it stands, I have to imagine reasons for this and they are not complementary of you.
Your third paragraph in this latest post is idiotic. I’m aware that not all Muslims are Arabs (see, this is one of your condescending instances). I am aware that people are just trying to get by from day to day. The day to day survival of individuals is not the stuff of history nor is it what one must consider when worrying about the activities of your enemies. Its those with the means of violence that one accounts for. You consider the words of leaders; their hidden meaning, their overt meaning; the movements of arms and various supplies, the alliances and meetings of nations, not the shopping lists of individuals.
“The objective of my discourse is and has been to lay, at the feet of Europe, the modern day problems in the Middle East and the support Europeans gave to the Zionist Leadership from the end of the 19th century through to today.”
— I understand that this is your objective and I am underwhelmed by your argument. A Muslim Empire, the last caliphate, involved itself in a European War. They declared war on the European powers. It was not the first time. I pray it is the last as I hope there will never be a caliphate again. I wonder what you suggest the Allied Powers should have done with the Ottoman Empire, seeing as they were attacked by the Porte? What then do you do once your enemy has fallen? What do you do if the enemy has fallen and you see that chaos, already a thing barely kept at bay in those days, would threaten many of your national interests. The Suez Canal, for one, your need for oil, as another. You think maybe these issues were a little more of interest to the European Powers then finding someplace to dump their unwanted Jews?
“These people had generally lived quite successfully in their respective areas for centuries.”
— That is not true. If you want to point to a few exception then I can show you some in Europe as well. The fact is that a overwhelming majority of Mizrahi Jews chose to return to their Homeland.
“Interestingly, about a year and a half later, King Hussein of Jordan showed up at Ft.Bragg, North Carolina and toured the 82nd and did push-ups with us! Mmmmm, seems like maybe the King wasn’t all that unfriendly to Israel inspite of having to look like it in public!”
— I understand that Hussein was a moderate who found it easy enough to come to an agreement with Israel. The fact is that he mobilized his troops during the ’67 War, made an agreement with Nasser to do his part in the war, agreed to allow Egyptian troops to swell his ranks, and his soldiers fired upon IDF forces from their positions. It’s pretty clear that at least some of his public display of unfriendliness towards Israel was backed up with unfriendly action. How a set of pushups with American soldiers is indicative of a King’s friendliness with Israel is a bit beyond me but then again, its not as if you bothered to explain what the Hirshhorn Museum has to do with support for Israel either.
“I hold no contempt for you Ami, but as usual anyone that doesn’t agree with the usually accepted point of view that Israel is innocent in all things is automatically labeled negatively.”
— As usual, someone who is disproportionately critical of one side while eminently forgiving to another will hide behind absolutes. Nobody expects you to think Israel is innocent of all things, I don’t quite get why anyone would expect that Israel, or the US, or Europe should be innocent of all things. I accept that humans are flawed. Israel’s flaws are much smaller then many countries, certainly smaller then any country that is even remotely in its position. and yet receives an over abundance of criticism.
“…but then the Old Testament, which is a collection of Jewish writings if I understand correctly has some pretty nasty things to say concerning the “others” as well”
— Really? I think its my turn to ask for examples. I would remind you that Muslim scholarship is what I referred to when I wondered what the Muslim orthodoxy means when they call Jews monkeys or when they say that a tree and a rock will say to the Muslim, look here, there is a Jew hiding behind me, so that you may then slay them. You should do the same when you read the Tanach seeing as it is the Jewish Orthodoxy, its interpretations and judgements, which provide the key to understanding what is meant by something like “an eye for an eye” or any other euphemism in the Bible.
“You say the “Muslims” call you “monkeys” well your Leadership is known for the same kind of name calling!”
— First you ask me to show you where the Muslims call us monkeys. You want to make sure I use real scholastic sources, as if my pointing it out to you would actually convince you to view the situation differently then you have up to now. Then you respond to these direct quotes by saying they not quite clear enough as the context might make it mean something other then what we infer from it, sub-human. You go on to then let me know that Jews say mean things about Muslims too, so its not a big deal anyway. Forget the fact that at least Ben-Gurion compared the Palestinians to another group of humans rather then an animal, forget that he was referring, not to an epitaph, but rather a historical phenomenon, forget that we are talking about a national leader and not the core text of a religion, it just seems that no matter what corner you find yourself in, you’ll just pour the paint all over your head, walk across the room and claim you were never cornered, seeing that the paint was your natural color anyway. You’ll never be convinced otherwise as that would require too many of your treasured prejudices be dispelled.
The Hmong ran from China because of the Han-centric policies regarding ethnic minorities. They got to Laos and eventually had their asses handed to them by the Commies. They ran to Thailand and settled there as well as came to the States. Sounds to me like my point still stands, folk who do not assimilate have to deal with some harsh responses to their uniqueness. I spent nearly 2 years in China, a decent portion of which were in the Himalayan foothills. I met one sub-group of the Hmong called the Miao, interacted with them, traded with them, ate with them, sang with them and generally thought them an attractive group of people. Seeing that the Miao have a Communist Party branch all set-up to apply the interests of the Miao people, so long as those interests aren’t onerous to the Han, I might be sane in considering there being a group of Hmong in China.
Woof, Woof Dorothy.
