Patrick,
“I would say that they were in Persia at this time because someone seriously misbehaved toward the Persian Empire before this!”
The conquest in which the 1st Temple was destroyed, and the elite population of Jews was taken away, was a Babylonian conquest. The Jews where allowed to return 70 years later, after the Persians conquered the Babylonians. While many Jews returned to the Land of Israel with Ezra, many stayed and these are the roots of the population we today call Persian Jews. It is this population which developed the many centers of learning in Persia and wrote the Babylonian Talmud as well as many other classics of Jewish literature.
“So any reference made to Romans paying attention to Christian texts as an excuse to level Jerusalem is incorrect.”
— I did not say the Romans used Christian texts as an excuse to level Jerusalem. Read my text again. Later Romans did use Christian theology to justify pogroms against the Jews living in the Land of Israel. I consider the Byzantines Roman, as did they, and this is what I referred to when discussing those pogroms, although the earlier pogroms by the pagan Romans count for something as well. I didn’t date these pogroms as they occurred over a long period of time, from Constantine’s day until the Muslim Conquest. The Jews had been used to being ruled by foreigners over a period of centuries. The only time you had any serious rebellions was when the non-Jewish authorities delegitimized Jewish practices (teaching Torah, circumcision, keeping the Temple holy, keeping the Sabbath holy etc…). As examples, the Jews welcomed Alexander but a few generations later rebelled against Antiochus IV Epiphanes when he desecrated the Temple by bringing in idols and pigs for slaughter. The rebellion against the Romans was first instigated by Caligula implanting himself as a god, with plans to place an idol to himself in the Temple, as well as Hellenist appointed as High Priest by the Romans and the theft of huge treasure from the Temple by the Roman procurator (which Roman sources corroborate). These activities radicalized the Jewish population, swelling the Zealot ranks and eventually erupted into full rebellion.
“In you third paragraph you state that the Byzantine Empire fell to the Arabs.”
— My error was that I didn’t clarify that I meant Byzantine control of the Land of Israel. The Arabs did take over the Land in the 7th Century and held it until the Crusaders came. The Crusaders then succumbed to other Muslim conquests, eventually Ottoman.
“The Jews were not the only people taken to live in the Persian homeland somewhat by force.”
— I originally wrote, “I’m not sure how many Jews succumbed to the Zoroastrian pressure but many other people who had lived under the Persian for centuries did convert to the Fire Cult of Zoroaster”.
— I consciously added this in parentheses in the hopes of conveying to you that I was aware that many people lived under Persian rule, many peoples gained the rewards of the culture the Persians developed and many peoples suffered from their cruelties. I’m sorry I did not make that clear enough.
— We are discussing Israel and the fact that Jews chose to create the State of Israel. My comment was plenty long without my having to go over the many hundreds of peoples and the many millions of humans who suffered under Sharia law. I never said that suffering and inequity are uniquely Jewish experiences but since we are talking about the Jewish State, an attempted solution to that inequity, I have been focused on the Jewish story. You are making the point that Europe was unique in its inequity towards the Jews. I am making the point that the Muslims and their culture were in no way uninvolved and that Israel was a response to a whole world treating Jews as second class citizens. In bringing up the many difficulties which the Jews suffered to arrive in Israel, their willingness to leave behind their wealth (btw, the Jews leaving the Arab countries had to forfeit what wealth they had to the government for the right to leave. Morocco is unique in its relationship with the Jewish population.), I was actually assuming the point you made, “Who leaves a place where they are generally happy, safe, and feel secure?”. I am making the point that the liberties, the education and the wealth of the West provided much of the energy for the State of Israel to become a reality but the Jews living in the Muslim part of the world were no happier.
— I brought up Shabbatai Zvi as one example in which Jews attempted a mass movement to Israel. The importance of that movement was that for a number of reasons, its massive failure being the main one. The Rabbis spread the word that no such mass movement of Jews to the Land of Israel should be undertaken again. The loss of many thousands of people, some whole communities, all through out Europe and drawing folk from North Africa as well, was a hugely depressing event and it took a few hundred years for the Jewish people to recover from the trauma. It wasn’t until 2 centuries later that Jews in the Land of Israel were again greeted by immigrant Jews, come to swell the ranks. Jewish return to the homeland has been a constant since biblical times. Jews have always tried to organize a mass return to the homeland. The surging might of a liberalized Europe (and their various interests), combined with American Evangelicism, the continued decay of Muslim civilization and the Jewish will to return was the combination which actualized what had failed many times over the centuries. Wherever it was the Jews gathered and settled their culture, they began to work on getting back to Israel.
“Given the number of items in history like the Balfour Declaration, the writings of Theodor Herzl and so on, most of which came out of Europe (including Mr. Shabbetai himself in the 1620’s I think) it is hard not to accuse the Europeans in general for the mess in the Middle East.”
— The Middle East was a mess before the Jews began returning in the 19th century. You can blame the Muslims for the plague, the economic depression, the agricultural stagnation, the meager population, the lack of education and the basic backwardness of the Land of Israel that the Ottoman’s ruled over. The Europeans did not dictate to the Porte their policies and it was the slow collapse of the Ottoman’s which cried out for filling by the Europeans. Can you blame anyone for not quite understanding the nuances of the tribal politics, the dynastic rivalries and the religious diversity of an empire as large and disordered as the Ottoman one? Don’t forget that the Europeans took over an Ottoman Empire that had just gotten through murdering 1.5 million Armenians and had involved itself in a European war, all on its own accord. The history of the West is well dotted with aggression coming from Muslim Dynasties. I don’t think you have a balanced view of the political climate of the last few hundred years.
“Finally in paragraph 6 you state that the “largest Jewish population in Israel are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants from Muslim Lands.” This is patently not the case Ami, and you know it. You are saying in effect that the nation state of Israel was started by Jews primarily coming from other Muslim lands.”
— I actually know that most Israelis are descendants of Mizrahi Jews. I in no way am saying that these same Mizrahi Jews were the primary population of citizens during the War of Independence? The point I am making is that the Mizrahi Jews were miserable enough living in Muslim countries to come and live in the Jewish country (which they kept hearing was about to be annihilated by the Arab armies, btw) built primarily by Ashkenazi Jews, with a healthy dose of Mizrahi contribution. Just last week, my sister-in-law lost her 96 year old grandfather who migrated from Yemen in the 1920′s and was part of the defense of Israel during the War in 1948. He, and many other Mizrahi citizens distinguished themselves in service to the Jewish State. They then had plenty of kids, many of whom married Ashkenazi Jews, and now account for much more then 50% of the genetic material in Israel. Its not my doing if my exact wording, “Today, the largest Jewish population in Israel are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants from Muslim lands.” leads you to think that my thesis is that Mizrahi Jews created Israel. Again, my point is that Mizrahi Jews did not want to remain in the Mizrah and suffered the usual and expected slings and arrows in order to return to the Land of Israel. Israel is not a European phenomenon. It is a Jewish one.
“Are you aware that the Ottoman Turkish Empire had Jewish Financial Viziers occasionally?”
— So what? Rothschild was a Jewish family. Dryfuss was Jewish. Disraeli was a Jew even if he didn’t think of himself thus. The point is that all these people were viziers, barons, officers and PMs in someone else’s country.
“PS: Use of the term “little people” in your initial post is really bad form, they matter because that is where the suicide bombers etc. come from!”
— Good point. I do not feel sorry for the suicide bombers.
As for your question regarding the Jews being singled out. First, I find it interesting that you ask that question as you spent most of your last post making the point that Jews suffered no differently then anyone else. Second, every study into what sets the Jews apart focuses on some basic primary ideas that are of the highest value to those making the study. Nixon says everything is politics. Mozart says everything is music. Everything is math, everything is energy, everything is nothing. So, one can study the Jewish phenomenon with an eye to whatever is primary in one’s thinking and come up with a principle that fits one’s interest as to why Jews have had the struggles they have. Seeing that Jews remain Jewish, even when other groups assimilate, some nations would find that obnoxious. If you were to look at Jewish Orthodoxy, they don’t work on the many holidays, they won’t share most meals unless prepared by observant Jews, they tend to have their own very insulated communities and non of these traits beg for trust. In homogeneous cultures any outsider is considered dangerous. Christians have found reason to hate Jews in the writings of Paul and the Gospel’s. Muslims have texts which set the Jews apart and call them monkeys and the such. Both those groups see themselves as supplanting the Jew. The Christians see it with the “New Testament”. The Muslims do so through Ishmael. Israel is hated because it is viewed by Arabs and other Muslims as stolen land from dar-Islam. I am sure there are plenty of other reasons that people find to hate the Jew. There is no shortage for reasons to hate anyone. In the end, you can catalog the phenomenon’s in the universe and still be left with the question, why?
