Zelaya Wins, Honduras Loses (Updated Nov. 4)
Earlier, it had appeared that 47 congressmen will vote no (40 Liberal, 1 UD, 2 PINU, and 4 DC), 26 congressmen will vote yes (22 Liberals and 4 UD), and presidential candidate Pepe Lobo is asking the Nacionalistas to abstain.
However, Thomas Shannon has been pressuring the congressmen to vote for the restoration of Zelaya or else! The exact words were that “Shannon scared the living hell out of everyone here including Micheletti.” It now seems likely that the Nacionalistas will participate in the vote, in view of the accord. However, the final determination as to Zelaya’s reinstatement has yet to be made, and it is far from clear what might happen if the Congress votes against reinstatement or if the Supreme Court disagrees with reinstatement — as they seem to have the power to do under the accord, to which they do not appear to be parties.
The fourth point had already been met on October 29, before the announcement of the “accord.” With much ceremony, control of the Honduran military was turned over to the independent Honduran Electoral Tribunal in accordance with the Honduran Constitution, which requires that to be done one month in advance of the national elections.
The Armed Forces are utilized to guarantee the custody, transportation, and vigilance of electoral materials and other aspects of security for the voting process. The Armed Forces have the logistical ability to deliver the materials to outlying areas, some of which are only accessible by sea or helicopter.
According to President Micheletti, he made a “significant concession” and one of the agreed upon provisions “requires … foreign powers to drop sanctions, reverse aid cutoffs imposed after the coup, and send observers to the elections.” Actually, the translation provided above uses the word “requests” rather than “requires,” and if Zelaya’s reinstatement is not approved by the Congress and the Supreme Court, all bets on that matter are probably off.
President Micheletti also said that the accord reached late Thursday would establish a unity government and a verification commission to ensure that its conditions are carried out. It would also create a truth commission to investigate the events of the past few months.
The nature of the unity government and verification commission, if the reinstatement of Zelaya is rejected by the Congress or by the Supreme Court, is far from clear. The nature of a unity government in the event that Zelaya is reinstated as president is also far from clear. Who would perform the constitutionally mandated duties of the president? A committee? Consisting of whom? There does not appear to be any constitutional authorization for such a committee.
Even though four points remain to be decided upon, Mr. Zelaya stated: “We are optimistic because Hondurans can reach agreements that are fulfilled. … This signifies my return to power in the coming days, and peace for Honduras.” Mr. Zelaya may be talking through his cowboy hat, or he may have done something to “encourage” a favorable vote by the Congress and the Court. Or, despite his confident statement, it is at least possible that he, rather than President Micheletti, may have been beaten down.
Point two, rejection of political amnesty, is potentially important, as is the omission of any mention of criminal amnesty. This leaves the way open to the trial of Zelaya on various corruption charges as well as for treason. Equally, it leaves those who participated in the “coup” open to trial for their actions.
In Islamabad, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called it “an historic agreement,” noting “this is a big step forward for the inter-American system.” She did not add that it also represents a big victory for the United States in trashing the constitutions of friendly countries and in appeasing el Presidente Chávez of Venezuela.
Meanwhile, Republicans charged on October 29 that “there seems to have been a pattern of aggressive involvement by our ambassador to actively try to violate the law and the constitution.” They asked the Government Accountability Office to “investigate the State Department’s role in the crisis in Honduras.” A spokesman at the State Department declined to comment on Thursday, October 30.
On another front, the Congress’s law library is rebuffing calls from the chairmen of the House and Senate foreign relations committees to retract a report on the military-backed coup in Honduras that the lawmakers charge is flawed. The request, by Sen. John Kerry and Rep. Howard Berman, has sparked cries of censorship from Republicans who say the Democrats don’t like what the August report said — mainly, that the government of Honduras had the authority to remove deposed President Manuel Zelaya from office.
A spokeswoman for the Law Library of Congress — one of six Library of Congress agencies — said Thursday that the research agency stands by the report and that Librarian of Congress James Billington is preparing a response to the lawmakers.
Updates will follow as events develop.
It appears the Obama administration does not approve of compliance with national constitutions.
Constitution? What’s that?
There is lots happening, and the Spanish language text of the accord is now available. I am trying to understand it, and hope to have an update up tomorrow.
Here is a Wall Street Journal editorial entitled Honduras 1, Hillary 0. At the moment, it seems pretty much on the money. I hope it is correct.
it is a sad turn of events.
Honduras has been Obamaboozled.
If obama can get a dictator in honduras reinstated then we should all expect for him to claim that as one of his big jobs down.
The fact that the honduras constitution is very very clear cut in what a power hungry nut like Zelaya can do to get himself the boot… and for someone who is supposedly a US constitutional “scholar”(aka obama) doesn’t understand even the most basic ideas behind constitutional law shows that in fact he doesn’t believe in constitutional law and never has…
1. ITF: “It appears the Obama administration does not approve of compliance with national constitutions.”
Nope. It just disapproves of military coups ousting democratically elected leaders.
Contitution!!! We don need no steenken constitution!!!
After all, they’re “just words”, which is what all the law schools teach now. It means whatever you can get a friendly judge to say it is.
Look for a similar push to repeal the amendment limiting the president to two terms here in the very near future.
What has happened in Honduras can have a positive effect on those of us who live here, and on the United States government. If there is a complete investigation into the part the Obama Administration played in the Zelaya coupe. I suggest that the Obama administration be asked these and many other questions
1. What did Obama and Hillary know, and when did they know it?
2. Did they know that Zelaya has been involved with Chavez in smuggling drugs through Honduras?
3. What is Obama’s connection to Hugo Chavez?
4. Why did Ambassador Hugo Llorens quickly side with Castro, Chavez, Ortega, etc. against the constitution and the rule of law in Honduras without a complete investigation?
Only time will tell if Honduras will be handed to Hugo Chavez. If Zelaya is restored as President, i believe that the worse is yet to come, and we are seeing a preview of Obama’s plan for the US. Will those who love freedom in America call for a complete investigation into the Zelaya coupe?
Viva Honduras!!!
Boo! Honduras wusses out!
The Honduran Supreme Court ought to do everyone a favor and remind them all of the rule of law by refusing to go along with this farce.
And if the Honduran Congress were to vote on the matter regardless, they too should, once again, unanimously reaffirm their prior action, refusing to let this bum anywhere near the capital.
Dan,
Thanks for keeping us, who live in the beautiful country of Honduras, and the world informed about what is happening here.
I read some place many years ago that, “The only reason that there has not been a communist coup, in the United States, is because we do not have an ambassy there.”
Viva Honduras!!!
I hang my head in shame that my country has decided to ignore the rights of another country’s democracy. Obama and Chevez have decided that Honduras – and then the US – will all become socialist banana republics – George Washinton is spinning in his grave. I fear for the future of my 1 and 3 year old grandsons. How did we lose our freedoms so easily?
You have to hope the November election is recognized and obliged.
Either way, Zelaya is out.
I feel for the Honduran people. Making strides towards a Democracy and this turd slithers back in. Hopefully for but a few weeks(I know. ‘Don’t be so gullible McFly’).
zelaya will not be reinstated. the US state department is not that stupid, and has been stalling for time as well as the hondurans.
this is a very nice face saving move for all concerned, and life will be good. elections will be held and the whole mess will be rapidly forgotten.
even obama does not want the real nut case in havana to extend his influence.
It really looks like this is a win for Honduras. From what I can tell, all Zelaya gets is the right to ask to be reinstated. This is unlikely since the Surpreme Court has twice said no and Congress voted to depose him in the first place. This would allow Honduras to end the sanctions the U.S. and other countries placed on them and they would have their upcoming elections recognized.
What this really represents is a face-saving exit for Clinton and the Obama administration who boxed themselves in early in this controversy by relflexively taking the wrong side.
Viva Honduras!
I’ve been posting here for awhile and to be honest I’m shocked. I’ve seen utter ridiculousness far too often here yet this one is off the charts.
You support the overthrow of democratically elected leaders by the military?
Wow.
My, how the left loves slavery and tyrants.
Orwell’s nightmare was of a “boot stamping on a human face – forever.”
That’s biblio’s wet dream.
It boggles the mind. Its as if the world’s gone crazy. A decent enough nation deposes a leader on the grounds he was using illegal methods to extend his power. And now it looks like we’ve nearly bludgeoned them to accept their wannabee dictator…
15. 48 Laws of Power:zelaya will not be reinstated. the US state department is not that stupid, and has been stalling for time as well as the hondurans.
I hope the Hondurans can refuse this ‘deal’ but I don’t share your faith that the State Department is secretly sabotaging its own stated goals.
Perhaps we see the future plans for our country from the Won.
To 17. jharp
I assume your talking about obama supporting having chavez and other militaries overthrow the legally elected government of Honduras…
“the US state department is not that stupid”
Don’t count on it.
To 21. robotech master
Don’t take the troll’s bait. You can’t argue with someone who insists on calling the sky green. The fact the military was following the orders of the legally elected government to protect it’s constitution is not part of the official talking points and therefore, has never entered the troll’s train of thought.
Unless you enjoy endlessly repeating “It’s blue!” to his “It’s green”… Well, ok, sometimes that is funny for awhile.
jharp:
The problems is when lefties get legitimately elected, some then try to dismantle the very system they used to get elected. Think Zelaya, Chavez and Allende. In the case of Zelaya and Allende, a military overthrow was neccessary to ultimately restore democracy. Maybe the same will happen to Chavez.
Remember, Hitler too was democratically elected.
Democracy is more than one man, one vote, one time.
29 de noviembre!
“Nope. It just disapproves of military coups ousting democratically elected leaders.”
In Constitutional Republics, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land. Even elected Presidents are not above the law, and can be removed (impeached) for cause. In Constitutional Republics, we do not elect kings, emperors, sultans, fuhrers or grand kommissars.
Zelaya was removed from office in accordance with the Honduran Constitution, by action of the Honduran legislature and with concurrence by the Honduran Supreme Court. It was the equivalent of our Constitutional Impeachment for High Crimes and Misdemeanors.
The Administration’s interference, in this fashion, in the internal affairs of a foreign nation, is an act of subversion, and tantamount to an act of war.
There is another subversive waiting in the wings – he should realize there is no power on earth big enough to protect him if he tries to emulate Zelaya’s attempt to nullify Honduras’ Constitution.
Obama and Hillary supporting Zelaya! Is this what Rahm meant when he said to never let a good crisis go to waste? Poor Honduras, they can’t expect any help from us. What a disgrace that we have come to this.
Obama and Hillary supporting Zelaya! Is this what Rahm meant when he said to never let a good crisis go to waste? Poor Honduras, they can’t expect any help from us. What a disgrace that we have come to this.
The WSJ take.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703399204574505541545624488.html
The answer to all the questions about Obama rolled into one incident from a third world.
Obama will attempt to change the constitution of the US ala Chavez.
Obama has already placed 30% of the US private economy into his (gov) hands , ala Chavez next is the health bill, next cap and trade and finally, he will win 99,75 % of all votes ala Castro.
Thank you all who voted for your dictator just to be cool and part of history. Idiots.
From a Russian point of veiw: After we get what we want, those who helped us get there, will be placed under the boot.
Honduras I pray for you. You fought bravely.
The murder and kidnapping of family members of the current government might have changed a few minds.
7. bibio44:
“… (The Obama administration”) … disapproves of military coups ousting democratically elected leaders.”
1. There was no “military coup.” There was the to-the-letter observance of the Law and the removal from (the physical) office of the criminal usurper of the elected office.”
And the president has yet to meet another lying, looting, thieving, fiat-ruling ratbag basta*d dictator he didn’t love.
Or an American tradition, institution, Law, Constitutional-protection and/or individual he didn’t despise.
15. 48 Laws of Power:
“” … zelaya will not be reinstated. the US state department is not that stupid … “”
The for-decades-now self-anointing, self-appointing and self-perpetuating basta*d-offspring of the Soviet-agents, Alger Hiss et al-descended “US” state-department brahmanas and its carefully-cloned for-its-uniform-mean-spirited-stupidity so-called Foreign(er) Service(rs) — are not only that stupid, they’re that evil!
America has no more efficacious nor enduring enemy than that headquartered at foggy bottom.
15. 48 Laws of Power:
“” … zelaya will not be reinstated. the US state department is not that stupid … “”
The for-decades-now self-anointing, self-appointing and self-perpetuating basta*d-offspring of the Soviet-agents, Alger Hiss et al-descended “US” state-department brahmanas and its carefully-cloned for-its-uniform-mean-spirited-stupidity so-called Foreign(er) Service(rs) — are not only that stupid, they’re that evil!
America has no more efficacious nor enduring enemy than that headquartered at foggy bottom.
I’m sure this is just a play for time. In four weeks, there will be an election, and Zelaya’s name is not on the ballot. Once that election happens, this whole controversy is moot. And yes, jharp, I do believe in the military acting to overthrow a democratically elected President if he proceeds to make himself into a domestic enemy of the Constitution by attempting to subvert its restrictions on his power. That is the military’s job- protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic- no distinction is made between foreign invaders, insurrection or usurpation of the Presidency, all these actions make one an enemy of the Constitution, and it is the DUTY of the military to neutralize that threat by whatever means necessary.
I sent in an update earlier, but in the meantime here is an interesting view from a blogger in Venezuela.
I am in favour of those governments who concluded that Zelaya should be re-elected (even though the Honduran constitution only allows for one term) that they be replaced by governments in exile.
Between their malfeasance and http://guidoromero.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/backdoor-taxes-hit-americans-with-public-financing-in-the-dark/ they have as much credibility as a terminally ill patient is prepared to run a triathlon in world record time.
quote:
” jharp:
I’ve been posting here for awhile and to be honest I’m shocked. I’ve seen utter ridiculousness far too often here yet this one is off the charts.
You support the overthrow of democratically elected leaders by the military?
Wow.”
What’s ridiculous is the obvious inability (or laziness) of some to read and comprehend a fairly simple document such as the Honduran Constitution.
What is obvious is how leftist take positions based not on any assessment of actual facts but based purely on ideological agendas.
You last sentence is a total fabrication which you must regurgitate to promote your false propaganda.
Here is a link to an article by la Gringa, in Honduras, suggesting that Zelaya and his merry band are likely to attempt quite a bit of mischief if he is not reinstated very quickly. Here is her translation of an article reporting some of Zelaya’s comments made shortly after the accord was signed:
****
“Zelaya noted that the timetable for implementation of the agreements provides that a government of national unity and reconciliation should be installed by November 5th.
“In his view, Congress should have resolved his reinstatement in office by that date, because according to him, ‘this agreement, this dialogue, the resolutions of the OAS and United Nations have only one purpose: to reverse the coup by placing the president who was in office illegally dismissed rightful.’
“‘If the National Congress in the session you have, is going to reaffirm that what they did was appropriate, then, gentlemen, we have done absolutely nothing but deceived the international community and the Honduran people with this agreement,’ he said.
“‘I remind members of the Supreme Court that they themselves are accused before the International Criminal Court and have a pending indictment and it is an accusation which will run its course. The same is being processed for the state attorney general, the heads of the Armed Forces, Mr. Micheletti, with all ministers and their own national congressional directive,’ he recalled.
“Additionally, his latest right-hand man Rasel Tomé, who has an arrest warrant waiting for him when he leaves the embassy, has urged Zelaya’s followers to pressure congressmen by calling and posting themselves at the congressmen’s homes.”
****
Things may get messy very quickly.
On a positive note, this time the military can just take him at the airport and put a .38 behind his ear. That would put a stop to any comeback. The rst of the world would raise ‘ell, but within 30 days they ( the media ) would forget about it.
If Zelaya refuses to obey the law, his opponents are under no obligation to obey it either. Law applies to all parties, or it isn’t the law, just dictates from a dictator.
Then new elections can be held and the good citizens of Honduras can choose. If they have any sense, that election will be held with ballots, not bullets. Of course, if they are looking for a lasting result, bullets are the way to go.
Remember Ayers plan to making Socialism permanent in the USA involves 100 million Americans being “re-educated” and the hard core capitalist ( about 25 million by Ayers estimate) being executed.
Ayers is welcome to try, but that is a different topic.
It now appears that the Honduran Congress will consider the accord beginning on Tuesday, November 3. Monday is a holiday, and the members are scattered about the country campaigning for their own reelections.
Assuming that the Congress begins to consider the matter on Tuesday, it will probably take some time; the Supreme Court has to make its position known, and that is unlikely to happen immediately. The debate in the Congress seems likely to be rather contentious. Nevertheless, Zelaya is demanding that he be reinstated by Thursday, November 5.
New elections in Honduras will be a welcome change.
However, please do not allow Carter to sanction the process. We saw how this worked in Vzla.
Out of the goodness of my heart, i offer to help the Zelaya camp. I suggest that someone in the room with him tear a hole in the tin foil window covering, just large enough for the mind altering rays to get through. It should not be too difficult to connect. He has a very large head, although his brain seems to be rather tiny. Any alteration to his mind, would be an improvement.
It may even be possible for an outsider to enter the room, and do the good deed. Just go to the door and say something like, “i am from the UN, US State Dept., OAS, or EU and i am here to help”. That should get you a pass.
Viva Honduras!!!
Here is a fascinating statement of the pro-Zelaya position.
It has been reported that U.S. Labor Secretary Hilda Solis and ex-President Ricardo Lagos of Chile will arrive in Honduras on Tuesday, November 3, and will be two of the four members of the “commission tasked with monitoring the creation of a power-sharing government in Honduras.” The remaining two members will be selected by the two major Honduran political parties.
Secretary Solis has a reputation as an environmental and labor activist, and has supported “card check” legislation among other things. As a legislator she received substantial labor contributions. She is a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus and “rated a lifetime “liberal quotient” of 99 percent” from the Americans for Democratic Action. She is considered a close ally of House Speaker Pelosi. She was sworn in as Labor Secretary on February 24, 2009.
Former President Lagos was a leader of the Socialist Party of Chile. In 2007, he was appointed by U.N. Secretary Ban K-Moon to the post of Special Envoy on Climate Change. “A moderate Socialist who “described himself as ‘an independent of the left,’. . . Lagos received a law degree from the University of Chile and a doctorate in economics from Duke University in North Carolina.” According to this, he is “a left-wing anti-American socialist whose hero is Salvador Allende, who almost turned Chile over to the Soviets, and a great friend of Hugo Chavez.” I have no idea whether this is correct.
In any event, these two members of the Commission do not seem to portend well for the restoration of Constitutional government in Honduras.
Meanwhile, the Sandinistas are circumventing the rule of law in Nicaragua in order to make Ortega President for Life–and Obama’s Washington barely takes notice.
But the prolog to this potential national tragedy was written by the smug feckless Bush/Rove/DeLay/Lott government.
Dan,
I read this article yesterday. It was a sickening experience. A sad day for democracy – a shameful day for America
Wanted: caption for this photo of Shannon and Zelaya. Shall we dance comes to mind.
Preperation by obammy mammy for when he is impeached, tried, convicted of high treason and then calls the un in to overthrow the United States.
There is no other explanation, none.
Prepare for the revolution of the retaking of America.
Another job “saved” by Obama!!!
Yes, there will be hell to pay soon. the only part of our country that I doubt is the NE. The rest would fight to the bitter end. The NE will want to know where the welfare checks are.
Where is the Obana-Hillary outrage over Daniel Ortega’s tyranny in Nicaragua? With the US embassy there under seige, and the US ambassador on the run from the sandinistas, after the Supreme Court declared their constitution to be unconstitutional.
Who can explain the US State Department’s different reactions to Honduras and Nicaragua? Could it be possible that it is because Honduras is fighting for freedom and democracy, while the child rapist Ortega is tightening his communist grip on the good people of Nicaragua? When will Hillary’s smart deplomacy kick into action? I predict the 12th. of never.
ok, so perhaps the state department is stupid, and evil and corrupt.
i agree, we are finished, screwed, done, stick a fork in all of us. but i cant help it, as an eternal optimist, i see the glass as half full in the “agreement”, and do not see a path to zelayas return to power. it is a transparent way to run out the clock, hold new elections without the “funny” ballots.
as for ortega? he is simply a thug, a drug lord, and will have the life span of a hunted criminal if he doesnt correct his evil ways soon. he is pushing the limits people are willing to tolerate and will fall to the same sword he used to get into power……….
Former President Zelaya is reported to have sent a letter to Secretary Clinton, requesting a “clarification” of the U.S. position on the “coup” and the meaning of the accord. Zelaya apparently noticed that Mr. Shannon, in a press conference on November 2 (after the signing of the accord), had said that Zelaya’s reinstatement is up to the Honduran Congress, in consultation with the Supreme Court, and that the U.S. will recognize the November 29 election regardless of whether Zelaya is reinstated. The position taken by Zelaya, that the accord requires his reinstatement, is inconsistent with that of Mr. Shannon.
Here is a link to an interview with Mr. Shannon on November 3. It is in Spanish. It seems quite clear that, under Mr. Shannon’s interpretation of the accord, it is up to the Congress whether Mr. Zelaya is to be reinstated.
U.S. Labor Secretary Hilda Solis and former Chilean President Ricardo Lagos arrived today in Honduras. They stated,
“I hope we can put all our efforts into moving forward the accord that was signed by the Hondurans,” Lagos said in brief remarks to reporters.
“You have designed a clear road and we’re very honored to be able to play the role of verifiers,” he added.
Meanwhile, Solis said that she felt “very proud” to be in Honduras representing President Barack Obama, who “is very focused on this matter.”
“I want to work with you and see where and how we can find a solution,” she emphasized.
“Clear road”? President Obama “very focused” on the situation? That’s cool.
Zelaya gets reinstated and he is just gonna shoot all those that kicked him out. or they will meet with unfortunate accidents as all the PC crowd would say. why would they let the military carry out the wishes of a democratic elected congress?
Here is a perceptive take on Zelaya’s recent letter to Secretary Clinton about Mr. Shannon’s press conference as well as on the Solis – Reina joint press conference. La Gringa notes that
the Verification Commission press conference was used to spread propaganda by Jorge Arturo Reina who gave a completely inappropriate and divisive speech, to the shock of many. US Secretary of Labor Hilda Solís was sitting next to him and a couple of times appeared very uncomfortable with his vitriolic rhetoric.
She continues,
I think that it is telling that Zelaya chose a representative to the Verification Commission who was not on his original negotiation team, unlike Micheletti. I have not heard any statements by Zelaya’s three Guaymuras negotiators disputing the interpretation of Micheletti’s negotiators that the National Congress is free to decide the issue.
I think she is right.
Isn’t it hilarious that the only place Obama can influence is the law-abiding democracy acting in a reasonable manner? And even more so that his influence is entirely negative?
Worst. President. Ever.
We’re a bunch of volunteers and opening a brand new scheme in our community. Your site offered us with valuable information to paintings on. You’ve done an impressive task and our entire neighborhood will be grateful to you.