Comments on: World War II Lessons for Gitmo http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/ Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:55:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: gregory http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-445029 gregory Sun, 15 Nov 2009 23:25:08 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-445029 legal legal

]]> By: WJO http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-90516 WJO Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:46:53 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-90516 The error of logic here is that those detained at Guantanamo are not prisoners of war, but unlawful enemy combatants. Many of them are also war criminals in the international law sense of that erm. The logic of this author is perhaps applicable to native insurrectionists in Iraq (read those NOT of al Qaeda and its supporters or ilk), but would be disastrous in application to those who have purposely commited acts of terror or conspired in them. The error of logic here is that those detained at Guantanamo are not prisoners of war, but unlawful enemy combatants. Many of them are also war criminals in the international law sense of that erm.

The logic of this author is perhaps applicable to native insurrectionists in Iraq (read those NOT of al Qaeda and its supporters or ilk), but would be disastrous in application to those who have purposely commited acts of terror or conspired in them.

]]> By: Bob Nichols http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-89669 Bob Nichols Sat, 09 Aug 2008 20:21:23 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-89669 I strongly suspect that Mr. Shelton has a much better background and knowledge as a possible military history buff than he does on the ideological and theological mindset that is Islam. Firstly, those detainees at Gitmo are NOT members of any state government’s overt or covert military forces. The Geneva Convention was designed with the treatment of those personnel during times of war. These are bloodthirsty zealots of the worst kind. The idea of killing women and children is no different in both their minds and their intentions than is the killing of men, civilian or otherwise. Their supremacist driven religion makes no such distinctions between the sex and age of the hated “infidels.” In a violent 7th century governmental ideal cast within a religion which teaches it is against gods law to take infidels as friends or confidants, and that it is against God’s law to steal, lie, cheat, or kill fellow Muslims, there is no such restriction on the same behavior pertaining to the Muslim treatment of non-Muslims. There have been dozens of cases of supposedly “reformed” Islamic terrorists released back to their host countries who have simply gone right back to their former ways. Secondly, anyone who doesn’t think that the Gitmo detainee’s are not already being treated very well is sadly mistaken. Among those Muslim and non-Muslims alike who are even minimally aware of the severity of the threat being faced (or largely ignored) by the non-Muslim countries of today, the term that springs to mind is that of “Dhimmitude.” I believe the past is a pretty fair predictor of the future and with that in mind I believe it is sheer folly indeed to attempt to deal with these terroristic animals within the standard criminal justice system. The evidence has been ample in most of the cases in which this approach has been tried not only in America but many other nations as well. Those few who do receive any sort of serious incarceration (none has ever been executed in a western country) the violence and headaches they create within our penal systems are both growing and well documented. Proof positive that treating them kindly has had zero results. Finally, the ignorance displayed of even a little knowledge of the teachings of the Quran, the Hadith and the Sira so many years after 9/11 is terrifying. This is not Communism, or Fascism, both of which are much easier to both understand and either contain or defeat. This is the perfect storm that has existed for 1400 years because it is so hard for most decent people to grasp and understand the true nature of the threat. Until it is to late, that is. I strongly suspect that Mr. Shelton has a much better background and knowledge as a possible military history buff than he does on the ideological and theological mindset that is Islam.
Firstly, those detainees at Gitmo are NOT members of any state government’s overt or covert military forces. The Geneva Convention was designed with the treatment of those personnel during times of war. These are bloodthirsty zealots of the worst kind. The idea of killing women and children is no different in both their minds and their intentions than is the killing of men, civilian or otherwise. Their supremacist driven religion makes no such distinctions between the sex and age of the hated “infidels.” In a violent 7th century governmental ideal cast within a religion which teaches it is against gods law to take infidels as friends or confidants, and that it is against God’s law to steal, lie, cheat, or kill fellow Muslims, there is no such restriction on the same behavior pertaining to the Muslim treatment of non-Muslims. There have been dozens of cases of supposedly “reformed” Islamic terrorists released back to their host countries who have simply gone right back to their former ways.
Secondly, anyone who doesn’t think that the Gitmo detainee’s are not already being treated very well is sadly mistaken. Among those Muslim and non-Muslims alike who are even minimally aware of the severity of the threat being faced (or largely ignored) by the non-Muslim countries of today, the term that springs to mind is that of “Dhimmitude.”
I believe the past is a pretty fair predictor of the future and with that in mind I believe it is sheer folly indeed to attempt to deal with these terroristic animals within the standard criminal justice system. The evidence has been ample in most of the cases in which this approach has been tried not only in America but many other nations as well. Those few who do receive any sort of serious incarceration (none has ever been executed in a western country) the violence and headaches they create within our penal systems are both growing and well documented. Proof positive that treating them kindly has had zero results.
Finally, the ignorance displayed of even a little knowledge of the teachings of the Quran, the Hadith and the Sira so many years after 9/11 is terrifying. This is not Communism, or Fascism, both of which are much easier to both understand and either contain or defeat. This is the perfect storm that has existed for 1400 years because it is so hard for most decent people to grasp and understand the true nature of the threat. Until it is to late, that is.

]]> By: ReCon USMC http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88898 ReCon USMC Thu, 07 Aug 2008 22:03:35 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88898 Remember there are { 40} different ''INTERPRETATIONS "of the Koran . From Suicide bombing for Allah to it is a Sin in the name of Allah to suicide Bomb . Women's clothing is great example .from show no skin to show all skin and only your eyes are not covered . Removing Young Girls you know what is another example like Young African girls have to suffer from as well . Egypt under the 1950's President wanted to make Egypt a Secular country but the 6 day war with Israel ended that idea and with his death . I sure you'll know that Iran under the Shaw with a very none Religious country until CARTER got the SHAW kicked out and replaces him with 30 years of TERRORIST SCREW BALL NUTS AND CRAZY CLERICS . You cannot carry a Bible in your hand in Saudi A. but in the Moslem Far east you can not only carry a bible you can have churches there of all religions . Remember there are { 40} different ”INTERPRETATIONS “of the Koran .
From Suicide bombing for Allah to it is a Sin in the name of Allah to suicide Bomb .
Women’s clothing is great example .from show no skin to show all skin and only your eyes are not covered .
Removing Young Girls you know what is another example like Young African girls have to suffer from as well .

Egypt under the 1950′s President wanted to make Egypt a Secular country but the 6 day war with Israel ended that idea and with his death .
I sure you’ll know that Iran under the Shaw with a very none Religious country until CARTER got the SHAW kicked out and replaces him with 30 years of TERRORIST SCREW BALL NUTS AND CRAZY CLERICS .
You cannot carry a Bible in your hand in Saudi A. but in the Moslem Far east you can not only carry a bible you can have churches there of all religions .

]]> By: fred http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88889 fred Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:06:51 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88889 "Anyone think the author is reading any of these spot-on comments? Nah, me neither." by "Parabellum" Yep, it sure seems to be the case. And the author only impoverishes his own mind by not reading what we've posted. “Anyone think the author is reading any of these spot-on comments?

Nah, me neither.” by “Parabellum”

Yep, it sure seems to be the case. And the author only impoverishes his own mind by not reading what we’ve posted.

]]> By: Parabellum http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88861 Parabellum Thu, 07 Aug 2008 19:24:51 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88861 Anyone think the author is reading any of these spot-on comments? Nah, me neither. Anyone think the author is reading any of these spot-on comments?

Nah, me neither.

]]> By: Mike Feightner http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88813 Mike Feightner Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:01:11 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88813 Remember in WWII we were fighting a political idea Fascism. Now we are fighting against religious fanatics. You can't compare the two. Remember in WWII we were fighting a political idea Fascism.
Now we are fighting against religious fanatics.
You can’t compare the two.

]]> By: dan http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88736 dan Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:43:05 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88736 *...accomodate the most people, as fellow "world citizens" according to the Convention. They have placed themselves...* *…accomodate the most people, as fellow “world citizens” according to the Convention. They have placed themselves…*

]]> By: dan http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88734 dan Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:38:37 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88734 Very good comments here, thank you. What I do not understand is the obstinacy of the proposition that these jihadis, particularly declared members of Al Qaeda and similar groups, qualify as prisoners of war under the specific elements of the Geneva Convention. They are not uniformed, regular members of the standing military force of a legitimate and acknowledged sovereign. That they are not is self-evident. They therefore do not qualify for Geneva treatment. The Geneva Convention is not a civil rights document, it is an agreement among sovereign nations to engage in reciprocal behavior with respect to the conduct of war, including treatment of captured soldiers. The Bush Administration's memo arguing that neithr this purpose nor these terms nor these intentions comprehend what Al Qaeda and the Jihad is or its members are is absolutely compelled by the letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions. That such clarity has been thrown into controversy is simply a measure of the success of the aktivnaye meropriyatia - active measures - of the domestic and international Left, who often resort to using such moralisms as weapons of demoralization and confusion. The only interpretation of Geneva under which Al Qaeda & Co. could conceivably regarded as enjoying the rights of lawful enemy combatants is under Protocol II adopted in the early 1970s, to which the US is not a signatory, and which provides such treatment for, essentially, indigenous revolutionary groups. This is self-evidently a measure adopted by the socialists in support of the Soviet Union's policy of exporting revolution and non-Communist sovereign destablization throughout the world. By neither legal reason nor common moral instinct do Al Qaeda *deserve* Geneva treatment; in fact, they deserve summary execution, or to be squeezed like dolls for information and then discarded in a landfill. It rather undermines the system - not supports it - to regard these men, who have chosen their own paths and have chosen to evade the rather enormously wide road laid down to accomodate the most people, have placed themselves entirely and with no little ingenuity and effort outside and against these very humane measures which require so little self-restraint, reasonable moral intuition, and institutional legitimacy to follow. So I say let's treat em according to their choice, and execute the motherf*ckers. Very good comments here, thank you.

What I do not understand is the obstinacy of the proposition that these jihadis, particularly declared members of Al Qaeda and similar groups, qualify as prisoners of war under the specific elements of the Geneva Convention. They are not uniformed, regular members of the standing military force of a legitimate and acknowledged sovereign. That they are not is self-evident. They therefore do not qualify for Geneva treatment.

The Geneva Convention is not a civil rights document, it is an agreement among sovereign nations to engage in reciprocal behavior with respect to the conduct of war, including treatment of captured soldiers. The Bush Administration’s memo arguing that neithr this purpose nor these terms nor these intentions comprehend what Al Qaeda and the Jihad is or its members are is absolutely compelled by the letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions. That such clarity has been thrown into controversy is simply a measure of the success of the aktivnaye meropriyatia – active measures – of the domestic and international Left, who often resort to using such moralisms as weapons of demoralization and confusion.

The only interpretation of Geneva under which Al Qaeda & Co. could conceivably regarded as enjoying the rights of lawful enemy combatants is under Protocol II adopted in the early 1970s, to which the US is not a signatory, and which provides such treatment for, essentially, indigenous revolutionary groups. This is self-evidently a measure adopted by the socialists in support of the Soviet Union’s policy of exporting revolution and non-Communist sovereign destablization throughout the world.

By neither legal reason nor common moral instinct do Al Qaeda *deserve* Geneva treatment; in fact, they deserve summary execution, or to be squeezed like dolls for information and then discarded in a landfill. It rather undermines the system – not supports it – to regard these men, who have chosen their own paths and have chosen to evade the rather enormously wide road laid down to accomodate the most people, have placed themselves entirely and with no little ingenuity and effort outside and against these very humane measures which require so little self-restraint, reasonable moral intuition, and institutional legitimacy to follow. So I say let’s treat em according to their choice, and execute the motherf*ckers.

]]> By: AnnieB http://pjmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88661 AnnieB Thu, 07 Aug 2008 04:58:49 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/world-war-ii-lessons-for-gitmo/#comment-88661 THe problems with your logic is: 1) By all valid observation, the current Gitmo croud is better treated than the German POW's of WWII. (I have actually been though one of our WWII POW camps - although for restoration work many years after the prisoners had gone. The rooms were closer to a jail - with bunks and shower rooms - than the college-dorm-room that cooperative prisoners get at Gitmo. Also, WWII prisoners there grew their own food - and did not gain pounds the way the Gitmo crowd does.) So if treating them well will have a positive effect similar to that of WWII internees? Then that should already be taking place. 2) Culture counts. Some cultures think that if you treat them kindly you are good people. Other cultures teach that if you treat them kindly *they* are therefore good people ( and have no reason to change.) Some cultures believe that kindness is to be repaid. Others... believe that they 'deserve' all you can do for them and more. Still others believe that any attempt to show mercy is in fact proof that you fear them. 3) Truth counts. Well, to some people. Other cultures and sub-groups believe that inventing negative stories is just a fair tactic against an opponent. In some cases it is even a religious doctrine. You can figure which one is which. THe problems with your logic is:

1) By all valid observation, the current Gitmo croud is better treated than the German POW’s of WWII. (I have actually been though one of our WWII POW camps – although for restoration work many years after the prisoners had gone. The rooms were closer to a jail – with bunks and shower rooms – than the college-dorm-room that cooperative prisoners get at Gitmo. Also, WWII prisoners there grew their own food – and did not gain pounds the way the Gitmo crowd does.) So if treating them well will have a positive effect similar to that of WWII internees? Then that should already be taking place.

2) Culture counts. Some cultures think that if you treat them kindly you are good people. Other cultures teach that if you treat them kindly *they* are therefore good people ( and have no reason to change.) Some cultures believe that kindness is to be repaid. Others… believe that they ‘deserve’ all you can do for them and more. Still others believe that any attempt to show mercy is in fact proof that you fear them.

3) Truth counts. Well, to some people. Other cultures and sub-groups believe that inventing negative stories is just a fair tactic against an opponent. In some cases it is even a religious doctrine.

You can figure which one is which.

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