ObamaCare Stalls
What was once seen as preordained now seems problematic.
A massive reworking of the American health care system, with government as a central player, was thought to be unavoidable with the election of Barack Obama and large Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress. But gradually, as the public and conservative opposition has mounted, there is a real question as to whether we actually will see health care “reform” — at least anything resembling what liberal Democrats have pined for these many years.
The idea of health care reform — like “New Politics,” or “hope and change” — was most viable when it was most abstract. The CBO cost estimate of more than a trillion dollars and gradual disenchantment with a public option plan has stalled the health care reform train.
And now Congress seems stuck. Roll Call reports:
Capping off a month of intense negotiations on health care reform, a bipartisan group of senators who serve on the Finance Committee released a statement Thursday pledging to continue their effort to reach a consensus on legislation when Congress returns from its July Fourth recess.
[...]
“Reforming America’s health care system is a tremendous challenge, but it’s a challenge we simply have to face,” the senators said. “The issues facing reform are difficult and complex, but over the past several months, we’ve made progress toward workable solutions. As we have been for the last several weeks, we are committed to continuing our work toward a bipartisan bill that will lower costs and ensure quality, affordable care for every American.”
Various members of the Finance Committee met privately at least three times on Thursday but were not scheduled to meet again until after the July Fourth break.
While opposition mounted and Congress thrashed about for a solution, the president — with considerable assistance from ABC — tried once again to sell his brand of health care to the American people. But few tuned in and platitudes no longer will carry the day. The hard questions remain: what will be in the plan and how are we going to pay for it?
As details have come to light, criticism has increased and lawmakers have become more nervous. James Capretta explains that voting for the ObamaCare scheme may prove to be very unpopular:
The largest tax increase in decades, which would hit the middle-class too. The movement of tens of millions of people out of job-based coverage and into government-run insurance. Deep, arbitrary, and cost-shifting cuts in Medicare’s reimbursement rates. Job-killing mandates on employers. And, most especially, the prospect of government intrusion into medical practice and the rationing of care. These are all highly unpopular steps with most voters, and the Democratic strategy is predicated on somehow getting all of them passed in one bill.
Republicans and conservative activists have also gotten into the act. A health care open hearing sponsored by Americans For Tax Reform this week turned out a variety of activists — plus Senator Jim DeMint and former physician and current Congressman Tom Price — to make the case that health care reform need not amount to a government takeover of health care. DeMint’s plan echoes to a large degree John McCain’s campaign proposal: provide credits for individual health care purchase, rein in trial lawyers, and allow interstate insurance sales to bolster competition and reduce costs.
Ever so slowly the voices of administration critics are being heard. Following Wednesday’s ATR event, Shona Holmes of Patients United Now told PJ Media that Americans should be wary of going down the road which her native Canada and other countries like Britain have followed. Slowing losing her sight, she faced long waits for a specialist in Canada. Holmes came to the U.S. where she was promptly diagnosed with a brain tumor at the Mayo Clinic. If Americans go down the road of government-run, rationed care, she asks, where will they go for treatment?
And then there is Rick Scott who leads Conservatives for Patients Rights. He was also in attendance at Wednesday’s event and has begun an ad campaign to show the future of ObamaCare. CPR’s message: a government-run “effectiveness” board will put government bureaucrats in charge of, and ultimately ration, health care. By shedding a light on the plight of those in nationalized health care systems with patients who are forced to wait for vital care (and with doctors who must scam the system to obtain care for their patients), Scott’s group directly challenges the premise of ObamaCare — namely that it will improve health care in this country.
Word is slowly seeping out that Congress intends to have government boards provide binding advice on which procedures and treatment will be provided. As Dr. Scott Gottlieb, a physician and AEI fellow, points out: “The idea of an omnipotent board that makes unpopular decisions on access and price isn’t a new construct. It’s a European import. In countries such as France and Germany, layers of bureaucracy like health boards have been specifically engineered to delay the adoption of new medical products and services, thus lowering spending.”
Time is not on the side of those pushing for a government takeover of health care. As the public, Congress, and critics discuss what ObamaCare really means, the prospect of a massive new tax scheme, uber-regulation of health care insurance and procedures, and an unprecedented expansion of the scope and size of the federal government raises more and more doubts.
Do we really want the people responsible for Katrina, the Post Office, Amtrak, and the Obama stimulus plan delivering health care?
I’m in my 70′s and don’t want a Post Office worker deciding my health care procedures……..
The Government is a non-profit agency. They have no incentive to make money.
HOPElessly shortCHANGEd.
I understand that there is a provision in the bill to exempt congress from this type of health care. So what is good for the goose is not good for the gander. Wake up throw these guys out of office.
The Obama administration is losing the support of the secular yuppies. They had no idea he would do this much damage. These folks value their healthcare. They will show no forgiveness when voting in 2010. The Republicans must distant themselves from the Democrats as much as possible. The “bipartisan” nonsense must come to an end.
Congress is not willing to give up their stellar, lifelong-guaranteed health care paid for by our taxes to join us in the pits.
Well, I agree with them. I want the same health care that Congress has.
There. No need to create a whole new bureaucracy.
Tell your Senators and Representatives that we are only wanting the same as they have.
It IS as bad as it smells, folks. We are not uninformed or “failing to understand.” We have got to stop being intimidated by the fools we elected and by the fool some other bunch put in the White House. They are lying. They are power hungry.
jimpres: @ #1
I’m with you, but you are quite generous about the non-profit assessment of the government. It was intended to be non-profit, but it did not collect any taxes, originally. As it collects more and more taxes, it is no longer profit-neutral, it has become a negative profit agency, a.k.a. a bad investment.
When so much money goes into it, and so few services come out of it, you can question the sanity of the enterprise. The more we let the government put its finger into everything, the more of our money will be squandered.
Lowering the cost of health care is not so complicated. We just need to back-track on the tort laws that force the doctors to pay unbelievably expensive malpractice insurance, and with whose money?
When you go to the doctor, you don’t want the post office to intervene, and you did not come to the doctor office to pay for the 3 lawyers standing behind him either.
1.jimpres….
“I’m in my 70’s and don’t want a Post Office worker deciding my health care procedures…….”
Actually, it’s worse than that. It will be obama deciding about your procedures, and I doubt he could qualify to work in the PO.
“The Government is a non-profit agency. They have no incentive to make money.”
Bingo. The government doesn’t have any money and never did. That’s why they keep taking ours.
I am 66, have private medical insurance (because I have a choice), on MEDICARE (because I have no choice), and am a disabled veteran with service-connected disabilities. I like my private insurance because it lets me go see doctors of my choice when I want to, and pays for the many expenses MEDICARE does not. As for the VA? I never go there – you can die just waiting for something at a VA hospital. And if you want a look at what Obamacare will really be like, just visit your local VA hospital. In the meantime, do not let the goverment intrude into the area of medical care. After all, they do such a great job with MEDICARE, MEDICAID, the US Postal Service, the Veterans Administration, AMTRAC, etc., etc., why let them destroy a good system?
Professor Guvinoff,
I agree the tort laws need to be changed.
My point about the non profit was they have no incentive to do anything right or on time.
Some are saying the healthcare reform could cost a trillion, three trillion, even 64 trillion dollars (video: http://www.newsy.com/videos/numbers_and_figures_and_polls_oh_my) if we go to Obamacare. That’s just ridiculous.
President Obama’s Obamacare is falling apart with good reason: Hypocrisy. The elites will be afforded good health care, yet the masses will not? Furthermore, Obama even answered on the low rated infomercial that he will not subject his relatives to Obamacare.
Worse, Universal Healthcare will bankrupt America. Given 2010 is on the horizon, many legislatures are right to be nervous. They should be. If they possess any common sense, they will vote against Universal Obamacare.
Cap & Tax needs to be staked in the heart as well…
Obamacare is absolute proof that Obama doesn’t care.
The porkulus-stimulus was and is to break the U.S. economy and the private sector,build the government sector and programs to undermine popular sovernity; undermine the economy,undermine the military,undermine the U.S.,undermine the Constitution,undermine Capitalism.
Taking over banking,taking over car companies,cap and trade,nationalizing health care are all of the above.
Obamacare will end up costing more than 3 trillion; it will be more than 9 or 10 trillion plus! Who in their right minds will go for this madness? Besides President Obama…
#12 “progressive” watch
The porkulus-stimulus was and is to break the U.S. economy and the private sector,build the government sector and programs to undermine popular sovernity; undermine the economy,undermine the military,undermine the U.S.,undermine the Constitution,undermine Capitalism.
Taking over banking,taking over car companies,cap and trade,nationalizing health care are all of the above.
Yes, but the Republicans keep playing politics as usual instead of calling the American people to oppose the subversion of the Republic.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
Progressive Watch, Obama will fail precisely because he wants to fundamentally change America into a quasi-Socialist country; other Democrats will end up fighting Obama both to the Left & Right of him. He will be willing to throw the Congressional Democrats under the bus & they will likewise do the same with him. Afterward, the Congress will not be working with Obama & Obama will lose control even if the Republicans do not regain control of one of the houses. Thus, President Obama will indeed be a repeat of Jimmy Carter as inflation & unemployment (stagflation) hatches from its egg created by the “stimulus.”
President Obama will meander aimlessly the rest of his term after several Congressional defeats of his bills. The press will turn into the Glenn Close character from Fatal Attraction & turn on Obama when he won’t be able to live up to their God image.
1. jimpres:
I was thinking more along the lines of the public housing managers.
–The UnPatriot
#15 Sebastian Shaw
Let’s hope you are right.
I hope that the “honest and patriotic” Democrat will not be of the same genus of the “moderate muslim”.
Genus “notexistent”.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
I ave news for you wingnuts – We will have a healthcare bill this year and it will have some sort of a public option. I expect all of you to keep your private plans, even if your employers opt for the publica plan and to refuse Medicare when you get to 65. By the way the Government already pays for 60% of healthcare costs
An easy way to fix this mess is of course to require that all government workers including Congress, President and Supreme Court justices have only what health care they require of the country at large. AND NO MORE.
The reason you think that teh bill is in trouble is taht you watch Fox and read the tripe deliverd here. Unfortunately for you, your sampling methods are hopelessly biased. Seems like over 70% of the public want a public option. You are sampling the 30%
18. The Shadow:
“By the way the Government already pays for 60% of healthcare costs”
HERE IS THE BIG LIE. “Government” does not pay for ANYTHING. “Government” is not some sugar daddy with infinitely deep pockets. It is you and me.
The debate is not about free anything. It is about the mechanism that you and I use to pay for something we receive and who controls the system (and thus whether you live or die).
The bottom line is that, yes, the current system sucks. But, any “Government” system will just suck more. This rosy picture that government bureaucrats will make better decisions than corporate bureaucrats is simply mind bogglingly delusional.
–The UnPatriot
The Shadow knows what he’s saying is true because Obama said so!
Obamacare is a giant leap backwards into Obamanation and must be stopped for several reasons. The first flag is cost, and there is no upward cap on the demands of an ageing demographic.
The second flag is a massive expansion of the bureaucracy with all of the new potential federal employees and their paper shuffling regiments of waiting for their pensions.
The third, less considered, and most constitutionally imbalanced red flag is the violation of the privacy laws with the numerous eyes on your files. Foremost of the potential violations is the Civil Rights Amendment. The convent of doctor-patient confidentiality is broken. With the already mandated Electronic Medical Records initiative in the Stimulus Bill, which will not cut cost or save lives, your health care becomes public domain. Big brother will be watching. Patients will limit their histories to their doctors. Doctors will become federal information agents.
Congress isn’t stuck because there only needs to be 50 votes to pass anything. If Reid plays hardball, the bill that gets voted on by the deadline will be all Democrat. Bipartisanship at the point of a gun. And GOP pundits seem to be willing to pull that trigger.
Health insurance as it exists today is not insurance, it is pre-paid health care. The Democrats have consistently ignored the distinction between health insurance and health care, and the issue has become so confused in their mind that socialized medicine has become the only workable approach. Why is socialized medicine the only option? Because Democrats believe that when the country faces complex problems, those problems can only be solved by government.
What I would like to hear is a rational discussion about chronic vs. acute health conditions, but I don’t expect congress to talk about it. It seems that there are people who have chronic conditions, who need a great deal of long term support. Then there are those who are lucky enough to only need to visit a doctor to treat acute conditions. Furthermore, there are those who are more susceptible to chronic and acute conditions as a result of personal decisions, such as smoking, or obesity.
Logically separating chronic and acute illnessness, there is a case for 2 distinct health programs: one program would be for catastrophic health insurance to treat acute conditions, and one program for long term care treating chronic conditions. I think that the current majority does not consider the possibility of different programs. They would rather discuss the merits of government run vs. private run health care.
The inability of politicians to properly analyze health issues is just one of the reasons why government should not be in the business of health care or health insurance.
72% in favor is “on the ropes”? What color is the sky in your world?
#21 The Unpatriot: Exactly! There is no such thing as “universal free health care.” It won’t be universal (rationing) and it won’t be free (higher taxes).
Where do these idiots think the money comes from? Additionally, let’s say this peachy-keen thing goes through, and those of us who are satisfied with our current insurance aren’t forced to sign up for Obamacare. This means we get double dinged: our group plan is paid for by the employee – not the employer as so many people mistakenly assume. The employee bears the cost via reduced wages. That’s the first ding.
The second ding is the one that has the government reaching into MY pocket to pay for someone else’s “free” government insurance.
(Shadow: “The government has no money of its own. Only people have money. The government only gets money by reaching its hand into your pocket and taking it out.” – Milton Friedman. P.S. How about some links to back up your statistics.)
Isn’t the Shadow a racist handle
?
Shadows have no mass – no weight.
They disappear at sunset.
This has all the hallmarks of the 1994 Assault Weapons Bill:
A radical public policy initiative, pushed repeatedly to the front-burner of a sympathetic MSM by a relatively small cadre of well-financed zealots.
The only way to definitively beat back this Statist power grab is for the electorate to litter the ground with the political corpses of those politicians who advance and vote for this kind of initiative.
As happenned in the ’94 mid-terms, once the professional politicians are shown, in the harshest and most stark electoral terms, that listening to the sloganeering of narrow interest groups will cost them their careers, only then will they get the message…at least for a while.
27. Moogie:
If I may be so bold to paraphrase as this bears repeating, and repeating, and repeating.
All employee benefits are “… paid for by the employee – not the employer as so many people mistakenly assume. The EMPLOYEE BEARS THE COST via reduced wages.”
–The UnPatriot
Yup Radical just like Medicare
As an RN, I’m shocked,shocked I say, by the hypocrisy of the Obamaites. No one is ever turned away from a hospital that Michelle Obama isn’t associated with because they can’t pay.
MaryAnn – By law no emergency room can refuse to treat anyone that comes in.
#31 The UnPatriot: Thank you. Yes indeed. Another gem of Milton’s is the false belief that the employer contributes half of the required social security fee. They don’t. They simply lower the wages of the employees to make up the difference.
This is called “maintaining the bottom line.” Leftists call it “selfishness.” Of course, when they demand, like babies crying for another cookie, that the wage earners “share the wealth,” it’s certainly not selfishness on the part of the leftist. It’s “fairness.”
Here are a couple of outstanding articles to put the mind (or lack thereof) of the leftist into perspective:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/when_did_the_lowbrows_take_ove.html
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/not_much_ado_about_nothing.html
Ms Attitude – I do not depend on sources that agree with me, so, I am likely to come accross information that the wingnuts do not
Elvis – too old for you – “what evil lurks in the heart of man”
Government programs directly cover 27.8% of the population (83 million),[37] including the elderly, disabled, children, veterans, and some of the poor, and federal law mandates public access to emergency services regardless of ability to pay. Public spending accounts for between 45% and 56.1% of U.S. health care spending.[44] Per-capita spending on health care by the U.S. government placed it among the top ten highest spenders among United Nations member countries in 2004.[45]
Federally funded programs include:
Medicare, generally covering citizens and long-term residents 65 years and older.
Medicaid, generally covering low income people in certain categories, including children, pregnant women, and the disabled. (Administered by the states.)
State Children’s Health Insurance Program, which provides health insurance for low-income children who do not qualify for Medicaid. (Administered by the states, with matching state funds.)
Various programs for federal employees, including TRICARE for military personnel (for use in civilian facilities)
The Veterans Administration, which provides care to veterans, their families, and survivors through medical centers and clinics.[46][47]
I know of the show…. but shadow is a racist term now! That was then… this is now.
Yes, Shadow you idiot. And the ferderally funded programs are all going broke. Obama shot himself in the foot when he declared “no caps on malpractice awards” Any plan that doesn’t include this is not worth the paper it’s written on. I personally HARM people on a daily basis. I am in the work comp field as a registered nurse. I have to approve surgeries on people backs that actually HARM them because the COURT tells us we have to.
It makes me sick on a daily basis. If Obama wants to put his fingers in health care, he can start be revising the WC laws, making them uniform throughout the states. Appoint a board of physicians, nurses, use some of the outcome studies and TAKE THE LAWYERS and judges out of the equation. I spend $60K nearly daily on an unnecessary surgery that we know actually makes people worse. Then they become permanently disabled and the employer gets bilked. We all pay for this. The patients are like non-entities.
Shadow, you just made everyone’s point. All those Government programs and agencies have been expensive failures as far as spending excessive amounts for what they do. To put the government in charge of it all would be a catastrophic disater.
And yes, the government would be in charge if they have an iron in the fire such as government run health insurance. There is nothing any government hates worse than competition. They always look bad in comparison.
I worked in the billing office for a busy physicians office years ago. Tricare pays pennies to the dollar as does Medicare. Medicaid pays next to nothing. To make up for the expense for the care of these patients the cost went up for non-government “insurance” patients. In order to pay the bills we had to limit the number of these patients seen. Sad but true. Medicare and Medicaid was a real pain to deal with. We had a 5 year old Medicaid patient referred to the office from the hospital. He had been in a car wreck and had a hypertrophic scar above his left eye which was interferring with his sight. Medicaid refused to pay stating that it was plastic surgery and unnecessary. It took months of phone calls and letters before they agreed to the procedure and then paid less than a 1/3 of the expenses.
This is what government insurance will do for all of us.
P.S. When a phsicians office is unable to pay for a billing/insurance clerk because of the low payments who will fight for the patients?
A friend in Vienna recently explained the “free” health care coverage in Austria. Bear with me as I describe what we may likely see here in the near future:
1. Their state health care system is called Krankenkasse (KK). It is mandatory that everyone participate in this state-run plan. The plan is paid for via a set percentage taken out of the worker’s wages – they pay half, and the employer “pays” half (we all know what that means: the employee actually pays for the whole thing via reduced wages).
2. Each quarter, the worker is issued three KK vouchers: One voucher for a general practioner, one for a specialist and one for a dentist. The voucher is presented to the physician at the initial appointment. You are then entitled to three months worth of unlimited visits to that particular doctor – and only that doctor. At the end of the three months, if you want to see a different doctor you may, as you will be given another three vouchers. If you need additional testing, lab work, or more than one specialist, the original doctor will give you a referral voucher.
3. The KK reimburses physicians about 19 Euros per voucher – not per visit – so it behooves the doctor to schedule as many appointments as possible per day. This means very long waits, even for short visits. Doctors are also required to make house calls, which again, are not reimbursed per visit. Doctors are paid quarterly. Nineteen Euros = $26.70 USD.
I haven’t had a chance to ask him about health care for unemployed folks, although I do know that a friend is due to have a baby any day now, and that she will receive wages while she takes one year off from work – as a cocktail waitress.
He did say that litigation is unheard of. If the doctor screws up, there is no recourse, but on the flip side, being sued is not a continual threat to the physicians.
When people comment about “socialized medicine” I like to know the details – exactly what does this mean and how is it practiced on a regular basis. I hope this sheds a little light on how one European country has handled their national health care.
Oh, by the way, I should point out that workers in Austria pay up to 50% income tax along with a Value Added Tax (VAT) which he describes as a “sales tax on steroids.” It’s an additional 20% on everything that you purchase.
They are running out of workers in the EU, and Europeans aren’t having the requisite 2.1 kids to perpetuate their population, so immigration is highly valued as a way of bringing in more tax payers (sound familiar?). The big problem: they immigrate but don’t integrate. It will be interesting to see, in another 20 or so years, the demographics in the EU.
Shadow –
If the government is the majority player in the health care space, then why not blame it for the brokenness of the industry? I mean, really, to hold up any of the mismanaged and sometimes downright fraudulent health care programs as something to aim for is folly at its worst. For every dollar spent by Medicare, physicians have to charge non-Medicare patients thirty-three cents to cover their costs.
It’s a policy of Medicare to cost-shift by deliberately underpaying providers. Even committing that act of fraud can’t keep the program afloat. It is hemorrhaging money and is not sustainable over the long-term. Who in their right minds would want to expand that model further?
Citing public opinion is weak. If the ABC propaganda piece is any indication, the media has an agenda to misinform the public of the facts of health care. How many know what kind of serious trouble Federal Government health programs are in? How many know that Medicare deliberately extorts free services out of providers? How many people know that the attitude of socialized medicine systems the world over drives them towards keeping people alive but not caring about the quality of their lives? I know people who’ve been crippled by Britain’s NHS because their condition was not deemed serious enough for immediate treatment, and now they can’t use an arm or a leg.
That kind of abusive, amoral health care might be what you want, and you’re free to seek it out, but how dare you fight for a system that imposes it on the unwilling? You lefties always rail about choice, but you want a public option that will crowd choice out of the market. A person’s choice of how and whether to be treated by a doctor is simply too important to be left to a government official. To use the force of government to take away that choice is simply evil. Not just unwise or ineffective, but evil.
You will, of course, write me off as a wingnut or whatever, but only one of us will never vote to take away a person’s ability to choose life. It’s not you.
elvis – you seem obsessed with making irrelevant points
I wonder how many of you will turn in your medicare cards
It seems to me that what private insurance companies are afraid of is competition
Shadow:
So the government sets up this massive insurance program that undercuts the costs of the private providers. Ya think what might happen is that employers jump to the low-cost provider, even though the benefits are substantially less for the employees?
Of course the private insurers are fearful of this kind of competition. The people who actually use the insurance aren’t the ones choosing the insurers.
@ 18, 20, 26, 32, 34, 36, 37, 46, 47, 48 The Shadow.
Vying for “Salesman of the Month”?
Or is this how you choose your lottery numbers?
You should let George know that his “Rat-Feces Perfume” isn’t a big seller over at PJM.
The Simon Property Group might be willing to let him set up a kiosk at one of their malls,
When you finally realize how little effect your perfume has here, it will be a victory for all.
Your perfume smells like rat feces.
Because I found this so disturbing, I transcribed a portion of a caller into Mark Levin’s show from Thursday. Very eye opening & enraging. SPREAD THE WORD:
CALLER: I want to tell you that last week I attended the conference on healthcare reform sponsored by LaRaza and I will tell you that what they had to say, Mark, is scarier than anything that’s been said so far on the healthcare plan. And the kind of comments that were made and my notes that I took, they started the conference out by saying America does not need healthcare reform, but Latino immigrants need healthcare reform. And someone from Menendez’s office promised that he would make sure that the useless barriers of citizenship would not be in this bill and that he would make sure that focus…that they would use key words like streamline…
[Levin then asked her to stay on the line between breaks.]
CALLER: It was LaRaza and the Children’s Defense Fund and Senator Menendez from…a representative from his office.
LEVIN: And basically what they’re saying is, don’t worry, we’re going to get coverage for illegal aliens?
CALLER: Yes, they also said comments like this, these are my notes, Mark. They actually got up and said Latino children need healthcare more than whites. And then they would say things like, you must go out into your community, use words like ‘streamlined’, use words like, ‘all workers, all families’ because they said, and I quote, “if the American people find out that this bill is about giving healthcare to non-citizens, they will rise up against it.” In fact, they said, one of the quotes that they said was, “we want to make sure we take care of barriers like verification, but we can streamline programs to the more affluent and, quote, “useless treatments for the elderly can be gone because we don’t need to have to spend money for people who are going to die anyway.” That’s a direct quote from that meeting. They also said we are very concerned there will be an effort to include the illegal immigrants in this argument, so we must make sure that we focus this to the American people so that we’re…it’s looking like we want healthcare for everyone. And, um, they also said that 75% of the children who will be picked up in this will be non-citizens, that 44% of the uninsured are non-citizens and that they can’t possibly allow the American people to know this. Now Menendez’s office said he’s going to make sure that a family of 4 that makes $66,000 a year or less will pay nothing at all for their new healthcare. And he said…and he was the one who said he was going to get rid of specifics like citizenship status and focus on, quote, “equity for all workers.” And he said he’s going to make sure that the Latino immigrants are the focus of the healthcare reform. And LaRaza said if they get this, they don’t even care about amnesty because they’ve fixed it so one family member can apply for all extended family members and they, and you know, Mark, if you think we have a problem with illegal immigration now, wait till you see the borders when this thing gets passed.
Biggest single problem with health care is simple-the F###ING TRIAL LAWYERS. Its the trial lawyers who force doctors to do needless,expensive tests. Its the TRIAL LAWYERS who force insurance companies into cheaper, often inadequate healthcare. Law, Academia, media and politics-the 4 legged triad of COMMUNISM used to attack America from within. The Moslem commie POTUS we now have is the latest in the long line of gradually farther left candidates in the dimwit party, starting with McGovern in 72 and gradually getting worse each election. Look at Obamacommiemoslems advisers and cabinet-All Clintonites(Enamuel, Summers, Shalala,Hilldebeast). Because Bubba was just as commie as Obama is, Just did a better job of hiding it.
I am an RN-I also voted for Pres.Obama-I believe that what the general public wants and calls Health Care reform should be properly referred to as Health Insurance reform which are two entirely different things and are not being addressed by the policy makers in any way, shape or form.I further believe that this is a diguised issue that will ultimately result in great benefit to the Insurance Industry.I envision an end result of a two tiered plan-Healthy job holders being accepted as clients by Insurance Companies,minimaly requiring their services-and jobless chronic and those with pre existing conditions covered by Federal Insurance.The massive un health of our population,particularly our youth will have great impact on Health Care in the very near future,and I don’t think this is an attractive concept for the private Insurance profit margin.I agree with the blogger who stated that patients without insurance are not denied needed medical(and surgical) care. But I can sight many cases of insured patients paying into the system for its’ service being thus denied by their Insurance companies.Health Insurance Reform and Pharmaceutical Cost Control is the solution but unfortunately special interests are at the reins-whether Republican or Democrat.I also agree that Medicare and VA systems are not ones to be emulated.I further also predict that the future Federally Insured will receive their health care in a less timely manner than the present uninsured.I repeat: Health Insurance Reform and Pharmaceutical Cost Control are the only solutions.
50 Sunglasses on a Feces Day
“You should let George know that his “Rat-Feces Perfume” isn’t a big seller over at PJM. . . . Your perfume smells like rat feces.”
More right wing scat fascination. Like clockwork, or is it turdwork?
Dear The Shadow: “Competition”, pah. You funny, but then you knew that.
You and I both know there is no competition where there is an entity that has demonstrated it feels it has endless, albeit non-existent, resources at its disposal..
If a company the size of Time Warner feels they must sue to remain competitive with the government of (little ol’) Wilson, NC, it doesn’t take rocket science to picture the competitive aspects of going up against the entire government of the United States of America.
Remaining disturbing to these Fingertips is the claim that those creating this monstrosity will have no problems cutting corners, oops, bringing “their” policy under $$ control.. They and I both know EXACTLY where they intend to do that, and they themselves have made no bones about it either on any given day..
Health care rationing.. I.e. the denial of care to those vulnerable populations, more specifically our seniors and persons with disabilities whom a preordained, self-selected elite group will pick and choose amongst as to who deserves to breathe one further breath of air..
And who does not.
This is not some conspiracy theory.. This is what they plan..
Not acceptable.
End of discussion.
Warmest wishes from Talking Rock..
“It seems to me that what private insurance companies are afraid of is competition”
Yes they are. That’s why they go for ever more restrictive regulations on themselves. However, if you want to talk competition, a public option explicitly designed to undercut private insurance isn’t. In fact, what Washington would be doing with the public option would be punished by anti-trust laws if done by a private company. Just like Social Security, the government does something that, done by a private citizen, would be wholly illegal.
it will pass. there will be a government program. why? because the insurance companies suck. cancell your insurance because you get sick? sure. you have a preexisting condition? f you, and die in pain, because we will not cover you.
they suck, and no amount of talk will change the facts. it is irrelevant that the free market provides best in most areas, because in this area it does not. no insurance company wants people who actually may want to submit a claim. they want you to pay premiums and never submit a claim, ever. to minimize their risk, they will not insure people with preexisting conditions. good business, but makes it hopeless for many people.
45. Quincy:
Shadow -
If the government is the majority player in the health care space, then why not blame it for the brokenness of the industry?
Indeed. If it weren’t for “cost-shifting” from Medicare patients to the non-Medicare population, spending wouldn’t be going up so quickly. The reason being that the over-65 population is growing faster than other age segments and they need more care, hence the proportion of doctors’ time spend treating patients for whom they are compensated at below-market rates is going up, requiring more cost-shifting, meaning higher prices for non-Medicare payors.
But, this is the Lefty moron of the month we’re talking about here. If he were to answer this question logically, it’d be the first time he/she/it had displayed that capability.
“It seems to me that what private insurance companies are afraid of is competition”
You are a f*cking disingenous *sshole. You know g-damn well that a government-subsidized entity is not the same as a market-driven, shareholder-owned entity. If you don’t then I take back the part about being “disingenous” and would instead write that as “f*cking retarded *sshole”. Either way, you’re one of those.
Ok, read some more comments.. Regarding Floradora‘s comment, cyber hugs for the gray cell tickle that one inspired..
Not a clue how it first came across my inbox but CNSNews has had (at least) a couple of [articles] about the numbers @WhiteHouse has been representin’ as uninsured.. These are the two CNSNews pieces I know of this sec:
2009.06.16 :: White House Claim of 46 Million Uninsured ‘Americans’ Includes Almost 10 Million Foreigners..
2009.06.24 :: Physician (Dr. Eric Novack/Novak) Disputes Obama’s Claim of 46 Million Uninsured Americans..
In that second piece, they are reporting that the doctor went on what comes across as congressional record with his observation(s).. Cool.
Searches for any information regarding Dr. Novack’s pursuit of the alleged uninsured Americans numbers discrepancy incidentally led me to a physican-focused advocacy movement some might (also) find of interest :: Take Back Medicine (@TBMedicine)..
Warmest wishes from Talking Rock..
I expect all of you to keep your private plans, even if your employers opt for the publica plan and to refuse Medicare when you get to 65.
OK, I expect you to give up the following free market-produced goods/services:
cable TV/internet
most food
books
most manufactured products
most travel services
etc.
The “logic” of your idiotic request works both ways.
Seems like over 70% of the public want a public option.
If I’m riding on a bus and 70% of the passengers vote to go down a road that I know will lead to the bus going off a cliff, do you think I’m just going to sit quietly and go off the cliff with them?
That’s not democracy, that’s lemmingocracy. Which I’m sure you’re fine with.
“it is irrelevant that the free market provides best in most areas, because in this area it does not.”
In what way whatsoever is the current health care market free? It is the most heavily-regulated space in the economy that hasn’t yet been outright nationalized. Government tells insurers what coverage they have to offer, how they can price and rate it, under what conditions they may decline or cancel coverage, etc. It even manipulates who can pay for it by making it advantageous for employers to deduct money from paychecks instead of letting people buy their own insurance or even, *gasp*, pay a doctor directly.
The simple fact is that the health care space is dominated by government to such a degree that the one condition needed for a free market to work doesn’t exist. The people receiving health care don’t pay for it. They don’t even pay an insurer to cover it. Their employers or the government pay the insurer to pay the doctor. Under ObamaCare, employers or the government pay the insurer to pay the doctor. The systemic flaw is not fixed. In fact, it’s made worse by cementing the flaw further by burying it under a new federal bureaucracy.
Put simply, any claim that our current health care crisis is a failure of the free market is pure fantasy. The government has regulated any hint of a free market out of the health care sector, and the morass that remains is a combination of historical accidents, pseudo-market mechanisms, and flat-out nationalized programs. Our current crisis is a failure of government, and can only be fixed by freeing health care from government.
#63 Quincy: “Their employers or the government pay the insurer to pay the doctor. Under ObamaCare, employers or the government pay the insurer to pay the doctor…”
Wrongo. It isn’t the government paying anyone anything and it isn’t the employer paying anyone anything. It is YOU and ME and every working stiff who pays for EVERYTHING in this country – either through taxes or reduced wages to compensate for the contribution of the employer.
WE pay for everything.
“The government doesn’t have any money. Only people have money. The government gets money by reaching its hand into your pocket and taking it out.” – Milton Friedman
The sooner people start understanding this simple concept, the sooner we can trim back the egregious waste in government and the sooner we can trim this Godzilla back to its proper size and scope.
63.
so i understand that it is ok with you if you pay your premiums for 6 years, then have a claim, that the insurance company has the right to drop you. and now you have a preexisting condition and no insurer will touch you with a f ing barge pole. is this ok with you?
this has nothing to do with government interference. it is good business, but does not serve the population.
you are incorrect about this aspect of the insurance industry being heavily regulated. if it was there would be no way for someone who paid their premiums on time to be dropped. it would not be allowed.
did you see the insurance execs under oath on c-span? they were asked if they would, on their own, stop dropping the insured after they got sick, response under oath? no, f them and the horse they rode in on. how dare they get sick, why just one case can cost too much etc etc.
Rick -
“so i understand that it is ok with you if you pay your premiums for 6 years, then have a claim, that the insurance company has the right to drop you.”
Actually, it’s not OK with me. The difference between us is that I understand the mechanics of the mess we’re in.
How many people would sign up for insurance that drops them at the first serious illness? You wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. But, *I* didn’t sign up for my insurance, my *employer* did. Why? Because they’re required by California law to offer insurance and because they’re offered a major tax advantage in the internal revenue code. And my employer was looking for cheap insurance, and the insurance companies stay cheap by dropping people with serious medical problems.
Moreover, why is coverage so expensive? Did you know that I, a single male, am fully-covered for any gynecological issues I might have? Really, I am. I have no choice to buy coverage in which gynecological maladies aren’t covered because of California insurance law. And, because that same law mandates group rating, I’m even forced to pay for coverage I never use. My risk of needing gynecological care is *zero*, but the group’s risk is not, so it’s part of the chunk my employer deducts from my paycheck for the insurance.
Now my point about gynecological care might seem irrelevant, except when you consider the case of people with a serious, preexisting condition. By definition, such a condition is not insurable. The chance of it happening is 100%. However, that doesn’t mean a person can’t be insured against other conditions. Except, with mandated coverage laws like the one forcing me to have gynecological coverage, it does. Such laws make it harder for people who need to get insurance to do so.
Moreover, why should people have to get a new health plan whenever they switch jobs? I mean, what more cruel joke could one play on someone with cancer or MS to take away their coverage at the same time one takes away their job? There is no good reason for health care to be paid for by employers. Not one. So why do we do it? History. The tax break for health coverage is a vestigial tail of WWII wage controls. Employers needed some way to outbid each other for talent, and with the US Government setting the maximum wage a person could earn for a job, fringe benefits like health coverage became the tool of choice to lure workers. When the Roosevelt administration tried to take away the tax loophole, employers revolted and demand it be kept. Sixty-five years later, it’s still there. That doesn’t make sense, does it?
The core problem with health care is who controls the money paid to insurers and doctors. To address Moogie’s point, it *is* our money, but it’s being disbursed by third parties who are disconnected from whether or not the customer/patient received satisfactory care. When my employer pays the insurance bill with money taken out of my paycheck, they have a minimal incentive to make sure I feel satisfied with the coverage I receive. When the government does so, they have no incentive whatsoever to ensure that I’m satisfied with the coverage. The entity handing over the money makes sure its ends are served before anyone else’s. How is this so damn hard for people to understand?
The solution to our problem is not more middlemen and bureaucrats, it’s to put the money paying for health care back in the hands of the people receiving the care. Health care will not be what it should be until I’m free to select the coverage *I* need from the provider of *my* choice under terms *I* find acceptable. Funny, that looks rather like a free market, also very different from what we have now.
Let me ask you something there, Rick, if you’re so incensed when insurance companies decide to stop covering people, how are you going to feel when ObamaCare is the only game in town and *it* stops covering people who are too old or sick?
54. Sheesh
Is that your best sales pitch? Or is it turd pitch?
Either way, you’re just monkey’s in Uncle George’s zoo, pitching turds at each other.
I think I’ll pass on your perfume offer.
66.
i lived in canada for 2 years and france for 1, both recently. both with a quasi single payer system for medical care. my situation did not allow me to be in the system, but i can tell you this: it was not something the locals complained about everyday. most thought it was just fine, and something else not to worry about. nobody in either country has ever filed for bankruptcy due to a medical problem. true, there was not a scanner around every corner like here, and in france dental care was pretty bad, but, as a manager, i saw cases of some magnitude handled well and the afflicted returned to work.
so lets get down to it. is too much money spent on the last years of life? probably. is everybody going to get everything they want? no. there isnt enough money in the world to pay for this. yes, medical care will be rationed, but in a different way than it is now. more will be spent on the young, the productive years on your life, and less on the last years of life.
more will be spent on the young, the productive years on your life, and less on the last years of life.
You sick, hypocritical bastard. You’ve got this *huge* problem with insurance companies cutting people off because they’re sick but you’ve got *no* problem with a government monopoly denying people care to make the end of their life comfortable because you deem them *unproductive*? What about the mentally or physically disabled who no don’t contribute to society, you want to let them rot too? Or, hell, what about the folks who just sit on their duffs watching TV all day leeching off their parents?
The thought of sociopaths like you deciding whether I get to live or die based on your estimation of my future productivity is why government health care scares the hell out of me.
Given what you’ve just said, I really won’t spend any more of my energy trying to convince you of the errors of your ways. All I can do is hope that you never actually have to face getting cut off of ObamaCare for being too old and unproductive.
Jimpres, I too am 70 years old, and under Obamacare we won’t be treated becuse it’s not cost effective, and we don’t contribute to society. Take 2 asprin, and go away and die. Democrats have no respect for life at conception, nor for us older folks.
more will be spent on the young, the productive years on your life, and less on the last years of life.
It takes no more words than those above to show the absolute depravity of people who favor government health care.
quincy,
i am a fan of ayn rand, and do not live in your fantasy world. it is what it is. rationing is taking place every day in the US.
i called a tree cutting service the other day. note that tree cutting is a subsistence level business here in florida. the owner, a big black guy came up in his truck and when he got out i noticed he was limping badly, and his shoe was off. OK, i have gout and recognized the symptoms, and it is worse when in the big toe.
i asked him what he was doing about it. he said he has no insurance, went to the emergency room and they gave him a pain killer. i told him that alopurinal, an anti uric acid medicine, had worked miracles for me and he should try it. he said the emergency room does not provide other than immediate care, and they dont provide scripts for long term care.
his joints will be destroyed by gout, but that seems ok with quincy.
the point is that the working poor need some level of basic care. that is all. there is no need to debate about somebody in some hypothetical situation. hell if you want heroic measures in the last years of your life, f ing pay for it yourself. start saving NOW. that way somebody will not make decisions for you. but leave me alone, i am a tax payer to, and medicare is a huge rip off, serving only to line doctors pockets doing useless stuff.
rick –
“his joints will be destroyed by gout, but that seems ok with quincy.”
Just what makes you think that? Because I oppose a monopoly system where a government bureaucrat can cut someone off on a whim because he deems them too old or unproductive? You never answered my questions about the mentally and physically disabled or the plain old indolent, either. Remember *your own words*:
“more will be spent on the young, the productive years on your life, and less on the last years of life.”
What if your tree trimmer friend were 80 in a nursing home instead of out working? In your and Obama’s scenario, he’d get a pain killer and be told to go home because it wouldn’t be cost effective to save his joints.
I’m advocating for a system where *everyone* who participates has the ability to seek care that is satisfactory to them at a price they are willing and able to pay. I want to do that by fixing the one systemic flaw in our current corporatist/statist non-market, as I’ve outlined above.
There are ways to provide health care for people that don’t lean on the insurance model for everything. How do you insure against a pre-existing condition? You *don’t*. You *can’t*. You *can* subsidize it.
Imagine being a person with lung cancer that’s in remission. In today’s market, you can’t get insurance. Why? It’s *illegal* to structure an insurance policy that leaves out cancer treatment. However, if one were to get rid of those laws and institute a fund for subsidizing the treatment of pre-existing conditions, then the person who has lung cancer in remission could get insured against alzheimers, broken bones, and diabetes, and then have the fund pay for any future cancer treatment.
In fact, in property insurance, a similar model exists with flood insurance. In communities where floods occur often, FEMA offers a government flood insurance program. Private insurers insure against other perils, and the National Flood Insurance Program “insures against” floods. In reality, the NFIP is more of a subsidy than insurance, because it ends up paying out more than it takes in. The program is criticized for making it more attractive to move into high-risk flood zones, but it’s easier not to build in a flood zone than it is to get rid of a pre-existing condition.
That’s just one option to make sure people get the health care they need at a price they can afford. The problem with ObamaCare is that it does nothing to address the deep flaws in our current system while at the same time stripping people of their dignity and forcing them to submit to the capricious decision making of government bureaucrats. It seems to me that the left is a little too eager to institute a health care system in which government makes life-and-death decisions for everyone.
Anyway, if you want me to leave you alone, here goes: as long as you keep trying to paint me as someone who doesn’t care about the working folks, I will keep reminding everyone here of your own statement about it being perfectly dandy for a government bureaucrat to tell someone to go off and die. The difference? I’m going after a view you actually hold.
Cowboy Tom (70)
“Jimpres, I too am 70 years old, and under Obamacare we won’t be treated becuse it’s not cost effective, and we don’t contribute to society. Take 2 asprin, and go away and die. Democrats have no respect for life at conception, nor for us older folks.”
Actually, they have no respect for life other than their own. They define themselves by how much power they have over the lives of others, an approach to self-definition that breeds contempt for the lives of others. Whether through abortion or untreated illness, the progressive world view demands that its adherents physically eliminate those who do not submit to it. The totalitarian zeal that inevitably follows the liberal ideal feeds on the death of its opponents, it always has and it always will.
Ovens, abortion clinics, control over medical care, it’s all just a matter of which means they can get their hands on, not what their solution is. Each and every one of them is dedicated to the same thing Hitler was, the creation of an “improved species” by eliminating all those who don’t admire their socialist totalitarian leaders and agenda.
Have a nice day
Wake up people. In the ABC infomercial on the President’s healthcare plan, the president was asked if he would pledge to only utlize the same healthcare benefits for the care of his children, as would be enacted under his plan for regular Americans. He responded that he wanted the best for his children, and did not pledge to only utlize the same benefits as everyone would obtain under his plan.
PEOPLE WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU. This is B.S. Even the congress will not give up their healthcare plan for what they are trying to shove down the American people’s throats.
Signed,
An independent minority voter.
Rick.
Canadians hate their heath care system.
To claim otherwise, would be…?
A lie.
Canadians hate their health care system.
67. Sunglasses on a cloudy day: . . . “Is that your best sales pitch? Or is it turd pitch?”
There you go . . . conservative dialectic at its best. No wonder you’re all so proud and confident and marginalized. It’s important for The Irrelevant to have a rallying point, and since the myth of conservative principles has officially unravelled, a turd is just as good as anything else.
Well done! Carry on! (But wear gloves.)
78 sheesh
As opposed to:
54. sheesh:……..”Like clockwork, or is it turdwork?”
There you go…leftist dialectic at its best. No wonder you’re all so proud and confident and marginalized. It’s important for The Irrelevant to have a rallying point, and since the myth of leftist principles has officially unravelled, a turd is just as good as anything else.
Your perfume smells like rat feces.
Obama was asked by a reporter if he would limit his family’s healthcare options to what the rest of us would have under his plan. He said no. I guess that some are still more equal than others.