Will Campaign Shift from ‘War on Women’ to ‘Women Who War’?
The 2012 race for the White House may be inundated by a “war on women” meme, but the question of “women who war” could also loom big for President Obama and Mitt Romney as members of Congress renew a push to lift barriers for women in combat.
The Senate version of the National Defense Authorization Act, moved out of the Armed Services Committee before the upper chamber left for recess, included the wording of Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand’s (D-N.Y.) legislation that would require the Pentagon to report to Congress on steps to repeal the ground combat exclusion policy.
“Women are already fighting and dying for our country shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers in uniform on the frontlines, but without the formal recognition that is essential for them to advance and obtain the benefits they have earned,” Gillibrand said. “Just like it was wrong to discriminate against service members because of whom they love, it is also wrong to deny combat roles to qualified women solely because of their gender.”
Companion legislation was introduced in the House nearly two weeks ago by Rep. Loretta Sanchez (D-Calif.). “Though the Pentagon has taken some small steps to remove restrictions on female service, they have not yet made a real commitment to a formal repeal,” Sanchez said. “It’s time to do what is right and recognize these women for what they do every day in Afghanistan and around the world. They have amazing potential and it’s time we develop their talents and contributions with the same training and opportunities as we give our servicemen.”
Every year, Sanchez, who is founder and chairwoman of the Congressional Caucus on Women in the Military, has offered an amendment to the defense bill to allow women to fully serve in combat roles.
But this renewed push comes on the heels of February’s Department of Defense announcement that it was opening 14,325 new jobs up to women, including front-line support positions such as tank mechanic and field artillery radar operator. The two changes to the 1994 Direct Ground Combat Definition and Assignment Rule went into effect May 14.
The Pentagon said at the time that the change, which had no effect on women’s banishment from infantry positions, was just the “beginning, not the end, of a process.”
Opponents of the ground combat exclusion argue that current rules impede women from moving up in the ranks, as combat experience is required for certain advancements.
A February survey by Rasmussen Reports found 54 percent favor full combat roles for women in the military — even as Green Berets and Navy SEALs, provided they pass the same physical tests as men. Twenty-two percent of likely voters surveyed thought that women already engaged in full combat roles.
Another February poll by Quinnipiac University found 75 percent in favor of allowing women to engage in close ground combat. “All party, age, income, religious and education groups support the measure,” the survey noted.
A March 2011 Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 73 percent favored women in combat, even 58 percent of those identifying as “very conservative.” Among men and women, 73 percent of women and 72 percent of men favored combat service alongside men.
The political breakdown in that poll was 80 percent Democrats, 62 percent Republicans, and 73 percent of independents in favor of repealing the combat restrictions.
Among former Sen. Rick Santorum’s (R-Pa.) famous remarks on the primary trail was a February CNN interview in which he voiced “concerns” about women in front-line combat. “I think that could be a very compromising situation, where people naturally may do things that may not be in interest of the mission because of other types of emotions that are involved,” he said.
He later clarified on NBC that he meant women’s presence could have an impact on the men serving. “When you have men and women together in combat, I think men have emotions when you see a woman in harm’s way,” he said. “I think it’s natural. It’s very much in our culture to be protective. That was my concern. I think that’s a concern with all of the militaries.”
Martha McSally, a retired U.S. Air Force colonel and the first American woman to fly in combat, who vied for the Republican nomination to fill Arizona Democrat Gabrielle Giffords’ seat, said she wanted to kick Santorum “in the jimmy” for those remarks, arguing he’s “completely out of touch.”
But it’s not an issue on which Democrats can claim they’re unilaterally pushing for women’s rights.
Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell, in his February speech to CPAC, noted that his daughter, an Iraq veteran, got the job done without emotions getting in the way.
“There were a couple of times when she’d call and tell me about the small arms fire that she’d encountered, either in her Humvee or in the Blackhawk,” McDonnell said. “And yes, I did get a little bit emotional. But she didn’t. She got the job done.”
In February, Sen. Scott Brown (R-Mass.) wrote Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, urging him to “go further” in opening combat roles for women.
“As a 32-year member of the Massachusetts Army National Guard, I believe women should be able to serve in front line positions if they desire,” Brown wrote. “I am mindful of the fact that the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan have claimed the lives of 140 women serving as Soldiers, Marines, Sailors and Airmen. Their service was honorable and reflective of the day-to-day reality of modern warfare and the contributions made by female service members.”
“Closing these opportunities to women affect their ability to develop a career path in the military and advance to higher ranks,” the senator added. “We have an obligation to expand the professional opportunities available to women, especially considering their sacrifices. Doing so in my view would improve military effectiveness, not detract from it.”
But where do the presidential contenders stand, and will it make a difference in campaign 2012 when greater issues of women’s rights and defense readiness are at play?
It’s Obama’s Pentagon that is taking an incremental approach to women in combat roles as it simultaneously hails the lifting of the Clinton-era “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy on gays serving openly in the military.
But Obama has been relatively quiet on the issue of women in combat. His only hint at the issue was in this month’s commencement address at Barnard College, where he dropped a nugget of combat into a greater glass-ceiling meme. “Until a girl can imagine herself, can picture herself as a computer programmer, or a combatant commander, she won’t become one,” he said.
Romney said in February’s CNN debate in Mesa, Ariz., that he would “look to the people who are serving in the military to give the best assessment of where women can serve.”
He said that “women have the capacity to serve in our military in positions of significance and responsibility,” then steered his answer toward criticism of Obama’s handling of defense policy and drawdowns.
What could push the question of women in combat to the forefront more than acts of Congress, though, is the same way in which DADT found itself in hot water: when the Log Cabin Republicans brought suit against the policy.
Last Wednesday, two female Army Reserve officers sued the Pentagon in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia over the combat ban, alleging the government violates the constitutional rights of servicewomen by excluding them from certain ground combat units and other positions solely on the basis of their gender. Command Sgt. Maj. Jane Baldwin and Col. Ellen Haring charge that current policies have hindered their career advancement.
The lawsuit stems from a University of Virginia School of Law project, named after Battle of Monmouth fighter Molly Pitcher, that seeks to overturn the combat ban.
“We want to eliminate this last vestige of formal discrimination against women by the federal government, and ensure that women in the military have the same opportunities and the same obligations as men,” professor Anne Coughlin said in a statement. “No other employer in the country may tell a woman that she is barred from the job merely because she is a woman. It is time for the Pentagon to stop relying on sex as a proxy for fitness to serve.”






Sometimes I wish that employers would take the Accept It or Get Lost stance.
I can boil this article down to two simple phrases:
“It’s politically intelligent for me to take this stance.”
“I want to be paid for complaining about something I willingly signed on for.”
Will these women have to meet the exact same physical standards that men do?
Heh.
You know something? I don’t give a damn about Sgt. Jane’s and Col. Ellen’s “career advancement.”
If they were so concerned with advancment why join something that doesn’t promise that to you?
Answer: probably to complain.
They never do. When West Point was ordered to accept women as they accepted men, they found that women couldn’t throw grenades beyond the lethal radius, so the lethal radius was “redefined”. They couldn’t hump, no pun, the standard pack for the standard distance, so the standards were “redefined”. In peace, anything goes.
I don’t like that. They’ve done it with police and fireMEN. The result is the public dies. In combat, soldiers die.
I hate this feminazi crap! I’m a woman and I KNOW there are differences between the sexes and thank GOD for those differences!
Women don’t belong in combat situations. How many rapes do we have to hear about? I don’t even blame the men. War does stuff to you and women shouldn’t be there as a distraction. Distractions get you killed.
The fundamental flaw in logic is that equality requires sameness. Complementary but different roles are the basis for some of the greatest moments of happiness and contentment in life. When Bocelli joins with an Italiana soprano to give us “con te partiro”, our ears and are senses are thrilled. Two tenors, or two sopranos, or one tenor, or one soprano, would be a failure. The Left thinks otherwise.
Start rearranging reality to suit ego in war and maybe people will understand why gay marriage is a crazy thing to apply the semantic gibberish of applying “separate but equal” in it’s defense.
Lose a few wars and reality will assert itself and an ego under foreign occupation will suffer just a little more than pouty lips because society didn’t give in to insane views about reordering reality to suit faddist idiocy.
When women meet the same physical standards as men; when women meet the same grooming standards as men; when women are not incapacitated on a monthly basis; they should be able to compete for combat positions like a man.
Until then, no.
Women can also get pregnant.
Women WILL get pregnant.
They will have to be removed to a safe resort for several months. And I suppose, because it’s not their fault that they are women, we should not penalize (much less discharge) them for this. We wouldn’t want to hurt their career prospects, would we?
Wow. I hope you are trolling.
“When women meet the same physical standards as men;”
First, the article addresses the issue of physical standards – they will be expected to perform to the same standards as men.
“when women meet the same grooming standards as men;”
What? Do you mean shaved heads and trimmed nails? I’m sure a woman trying to advance her military career will be willing to adhere to whatever grooming standards are expected.
“when women are not incapacitated on a monthly basis;”
Give me a break. Incapacitated? I wake up the same time every morning of the month. I take the same amount of time to get ready for work. I perform with the same efficiency and proficiency no matter the time of month. And the women who unfortunately have more issues with their cycle? There’s an easy solution –
Birth Control. Do you have a problem with medically necessary birth control?
And if it really is a necessity of all combat-ready personnel to suspend their reproductive cycle, there are a plethora of options for women on the medical market (at least there are for now) to include IUD’s, certain types of birth control pills, tubal ligation, hysterectomies.
Understand, I don’t think this should be a requirement, but it’s certainly an option for a woman pursuing a career in the military. Should she choose to continue with her monthly cycle, the truth of the matter is, often, in the stressful situation of being stationed near or at an active war zone, your regular cycle can be suspended or thrown off anyway, due to your own lack of body fat and the stress of the job.
The article doesn’t note that in the face of such a thing there will be calls for “normalizing” physical standards, increasing “sensitivity” training, and calls for people to get off easy because it’s that time of the month.
It already happens in the private sector.
The private sector is NOT the military sector.
Where is your proof that these things are GOING to happen in the military?
Show me evidence.
Under the current system, women are held to much lighter physical fitness standards than men. To be eligible for a combat role, a woman ought to be able to pass the physical fitness test for men in her age group.
Same group with the same politicians in their pockets.
No reason to expect anything less than the same old thing.
Equality = wanting to be treated the same as anyone else except during those times when it’s negative.
They aren’t GOING to happen.
They HAVE happened.
I watched it at West Point when I was there, and that was 30 years ago.
Listen people… the standards have been redefined, do a search for military PT standards and look at the differences for a 100 percent perfect score between a male and female, in all age ranges and categories it is significantly less for a female. The problem is this redefines the standard and as long as you pass the standard you should be able to face combat?
The real world and combat does not change that. A M-4 is the same weight weather a man or woman carries it, a SAW and its 300 to 400 rounds is also the same weight, as is a grenade. Now throw on the body armour, pack, food and water for a typical walk in a combat zone and your at around 80 pounds plus body weight. (minus weapon and ammo) That is what the book or manual says you need, now I like extras.. handgun, sometimes a shotgun and maybe a couple hundred rounds for that. I always take extra water and small things, power bars and such.
Now you tell me a female who only has to do half the push ups i am required and has on average 2 to 3 minutes more time to run than me and you tell me because she meets “The Standard” she is good to go? NO!
She can’t keep up, she needs me to carry her stuff, and then on top of that, when I trip she can’t help me and if i go down she can not drag my wounded dead weight to cover….. that is 3 minor issues and ONE BIG issue! Now think of this how is this person who can barely carry her own load supposed to fight a lightly load or unencumbered male?
This is wrong on so many levels….. I weep inside.
Because I lived it. We did not have double standards, because they were called “dual” standards. As a 30 year old male, I had to do X number of pushups, run a 1.5 mile in a set time, and do X number of sit ups; the 30 year old female, to get the same excellent score, had to do less than X number of pushups and situps, and given an extra minute to run the 1.5 miles.
As far as grooming standards, the reason I was given to shave my hair was for sanitation and to make it easier for first aid in case of an injury. Women are allowed to pin up their shoulder length hair to meet their grooming standards, so the sanitation and medical aid apparently were lies told to me by my instructors.
We had a female doctor; when asked by the DACOWITs team ( a group of women from Congress looking to insert women into combat) about problems with women on board ships, she answered … you bet there are problems. The women on board here are the biggest slackers and goldbrickers I have ever had the misfortune to work with.” The DACOWITS team quickly shut her down and left. Strangely her comments did not make it into the official report.
The proof is legion, to wit:
1. It’s ALREADY official policy in the military, and has been since Clinton’s days.
2. It’s ALREADY official policy in police departments all across this country.
3. It’s ALREADY official policy in fire departments all across this country.
4. It’s ALREADY official policy in forestry departments all across this country.
I could go on in the same vein, but the above indisputable examples are enough for any sensible and honest person, and no amount of evidence will suffice for those who are otherwise, such as feminists.
It will ALWAYS be official policy in ANY and EVERY job or profession which requires physical strength and stamina, which therefore BY ITS NATURE and the nature of biology, disqualifies women, yet which has the feminist idiology (yes, I spelled that correctly) imposed on it by legal action. When women (predictably) cannot meet the standards, instead of simply applying those standards equally (thus keeping women OUT of those jobs), there will be pressure brought to lower those standards until enough women can get in to satisfy the feminazis. (I don’t care much for Rush, but that’s an accurate term, so I’ll borrow it.)
It’s what has always been done, it’s obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense that it is the only possible outcome, and to deny it is to identify oneself as either profoundly stupid or simply dishonest.
As stated above, women do NOT meet the physical standards of men – the the standards are relaxed. It’s bogus. Women have no place in the military except in positions that don’t require strength or on the battlefield. Women are a distraction and distractions get you killed.
Just because it has been declared that women will have to meet the same physical standards as men does not mean that they will be able to do so. In the past whenever the issue of women in combat has come up, the same sound argument against the notion, women will not be able to achieve the same physical standards as men, has been presented and the same lame argument in favor of the notion, women will have to achieve the same physical standards as men, has been presented as a counter. But I can tell you that after 12 years as an officer in the US Army both as an executive officer of a tank company (in combat) and as a commander of an infantry company (in combat) women CANNOT meet the same physical standards as men. I have been in command of women and I have been commanded by women and, within the military at least, the physically strongest military woman is not as strong as a physically average military man. There are biological differences that cannot be erased simply because we wish them to be so.
And what does the men who serve in combat arms have to say? How about those women in the Army or USMC who have, or did have, a better view of the field?
This idea that women can be just as effective as men in combat arms has been tried by other countries, in different circumstances perhaps, and what were the results?
The issue is pure politcal pap. The people liking the idea of women in combat roles probably have no idea what they are asking as they will never have to do it. Although some one elses little girl might find out though, as women will no longer be deferred from the draft. Sending young women, and mothers, off to war in the name of “fairness” — what an immoral notion. But look at those entertaining the idea.
It was bad enough to imagine my reaction to a guy screaming as he was burned alive inside his tank. A woman? Call me a caveman and ki$$ my fourth point of contact.
According to US law the only people exempt from the draft are the clergy. That means that women can already be drafted. I’ve trained both men and women to shoot. Let me tell you one thing, a trained woman is as lethal or more lethal than a man. I frankly don’t care who is saving my butt in a fire fight. Another point, WWII we had a woman’s air corp and they weren’t allowed to fly combat missions. However, they were recognized as the best pilots we had. These women could fly anything from a piper cub to any four engine bomber and anything in between. There’s a lot of things women can do as well or better than a man. Remember that the Israeli army still drafts women and gives them combat training. They aren’t deployed; however, they are capable and ready. Yet, I met an Israeli woman who was in charge of a 155mm battery. There was no question that she was capable.
Okay so Andy are you saying you are comfortable with women in the SEALS or Green Berets? You REALLY think they can make it through HELL WEEK? Think they can hump 50k, set up an ambush and wait for 2 weeks before making a hit.
Really??? No massaging of results of their fitness tests. No reducing the deprevation of basic needs to train for survival in frigid waters. Handling a man with a knife.
And are you really going to base you approval of this BS on what is basic military jobs held by women. Sure the IDF used women but in SF, I think not.
Get real.
“That means that women can already be drafted.”
Really Andy? Which US law are you qouting? Are women required by law to sign up for selective service at 18?
“I’ve trained both men and women to shoot. Let me tell you one thing, a trained woman is as lethal or more lethal than a man.”
Shooting is only a portion of being a soldier. If you were one, you might have known that.
“There’s a lot of things women can do as well or better than a man.”
And soldiering isn’t one of them. Not sure where your opinion is stemming from.
“Remember that the Israeli army still drafts women and gives them combat training. They aren’t deployed; however, they are capable and ready.”
Neccessity dictates that as Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbors and doesn’t have the manpower. The IDF tried putting women in combat units in the past and recanted later. Do you know why?
If shooting well were all that is important in combat, you might make sense.
But it isn’t, and you don’t.
As others have stated: If women meet the same standards as men, then I have no issue with them being in a combat arms position. No dual track PT norms, no normalizing of standards. Need 42 pushups? Do 42 pushups. not 32, not 12. 42.
Task, Conditions and Standards to be the same. If they can hack it – Awesome. Good for them, welcome to the bullet catchers brigade. Congratulations, you are now a mine clearing device, self powered, biological (1 ea). If they can’t hack it? Then they can’t hack it.
Oh and NO increase in sensitivity training either. Infantry has LONG been a mans game, with a very locker room sense of humor. Can’t hack the abuse? reclass into something more ‘sensitive’ to you. Men take it, have taken it, and will take it. You want in…you will as well, because the Bad Guys will do far worse, with far more glee JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE THERE.
be careful of what you ask for…You may get it. Then what?
Feminist’s didn’t sit around and wait for permission to break out and insist on equality in the 60s and 70s. Time to grab a bayonet and show it wasn’t just about seizing the easy low ground.
Either that or start respecting reality, which has it’s own ideas about equality that defy the powers of legislation. Or get back to me when Vet’s Hospitals are truly co-ed.
Women can do the job of military combat, police work, firefighter, et. al of the traditionally masculine roles. The down side is the future dilemma of what if the enemy doesn’t play fair, and the women are captured and publicized as tortured prisoners. The back home sentiment would not work well for the war effort. The public reaction to said captured female hero has not been fully measured. Rage from the fellow combatants comes to mind, but, terrorists have their own agenda output.
It has already happened 70 years ago. Over approximately 80 US Army and Navy nurses were captured by the Japanese when the Philippines fell in 1942. They were prisoners until liberated over 2 years later. While they weren’t in the most brutal POW camps, they weren’t exactly well treated, either. IIRC, at least one American woman was captured during the 1991 Gulf War and another (Jessica Lynch) in 2003.
I lady friend of mine got into the fire department of a major urban center in the US. After she was in, she said, of course she couldn’t pick up the dead weight of a 250 lb man passed out on the floor from smoke inhalation, sling him over her shoulder and carry him to safety down 10 flights of stairs. Of course, she couldn’t run up 17 flights of stairs in full gear and then fight a fire. Those weren’t the ‘standards’ which she was required to fulfill, but they were often the reality of the job. She could do many things excellently for the department, but she always said if she were in a burning building, she’d want a man to be sent to rescue her. She seemed to know what she was talking bout…..
No they can’t. It’s a lie.
Yes, there are some “traditionally masculine roles” that women can do. Sales, engineering, maybe a crane operator (take that, construction guys!
), but NOT any of the ones you have listed. They do not have the physical strength for these jobs unless they are taking steroids, and we should be able to figure out how well that will play out.
In police and fire departments all across this country, women are putting lives in danger because they cannot meet the physical demands of emergency conditions, but their precious careers are more important than human life, so of course we say nothing about the obvious problems. You can’t even get honest statistics on the problem because any administrator who reported such incidents would lose his job, and he knows it.
Seems I read that the new USS Illinois will have an all-women crew. Fine. Permit me to raise a point, and it requires the reader to do some research.
What if the Illinois, with an all-female crew, is sunk in combat?
Will the publicity be anything like that put out by Argentina over the sinking of the General Belgrano? Screaming, screeching, wailing? Claims of gross victimization, ghastly barbarism? (Accompanied by a witchhunt in the Pentagon for those guilty of sending the ship into harm’s blahblahblah.)
I happen to be a long-time liberated man, but I also suspect that today’s politicized Feminists are not ready to swallow the consequences.
Have you asked a feminist what her opinion is on this?
Just curious.
I will be following the career of the USS Illinois with great interest. I know that women have been barred from manning submarines in the past due to close living quarters, etc etc, and I appreciate that these brave women will be embarking on a historical voyage, as well as a military one.
I will be no less or no more outraged at the sinking of the USS Illinois than I would be with any other military tragedy. The life of a woman bears the same significance to me as the life of a man.
As far as the public outcry? Well, we all know that’s crafted by the media, not by the citizens of this nation.
Just one moderate feminist’s opinion.
“Just one moderate feminist’s opinion.”
What’s stopping you from enlisting and getting the “hands on” experience?
~ Not the same “A Woman” @ May 29, 2012 – 2:47 pm
“What’s stopping you from enlisting and getting the “hands on” experience?”
With this (implied) logic, most of America has little to no reason to complain about our political situations due to the fact that the vast majority are not politicians.
“With this (implied) logic, most of America has little to no reason to complain about our political situations due to the fact that the vast majority are not politicians.”
The faulty logic seems to be emitting from your end.
“I will be no less or no more outraged at the sinking of the USS Illinois than I would be with any other military tragedy.”
Of course you wouldn’t be more upset, and neither would I. As women, we do not have any special protective instinct toward other women.
But if women are filling the body-bags and the torture camps, it will make a big difference to many men, especially those die-hards who cling to the belief that the word “masculine” actually means something.
Well, we shall continue to educate them, and in time they will learn to think correctly—- i.e., like women.
I repeat myself.
“What’s stopping you from enlisting and getting the “hands on” experience?”
Leading from behind, eh?
Peace studies advocates have been pushing this issue for years. The idea being to break the US military potency with dead women in body bags breaking the US moral to fight.
This isn’t new, but just another neo-leftist-marxist idea coming to DC fruitation.
Neither I nor the vast majority of women have the least desire to enter combat,
and that definitely includes the ones enthusiastically pushing women-in-combat.
But their goal is NOT to open up this activity to women. That is only a means. Their goal is to change the very nature of the activity, to DESTROY it. To destroy anything traditionally masculine. To destroy the very idea of masculinity.
“especially those die-hards who cling to the belief that the word “masculine” actually means something.
Well, we shall continue to educate them, and in time they will learn to think correctly—- i.e., like women”
This is sarcasm right?
Masculinity is what drove the men who built your world. ALL your world.
“Masculinity is what drove the men who built your world. ALL your world.”
Peculiar isn’t it? “Womens rights” were given to them by men. Funny how they forget that. When I told my sister about my obsevrations of the women in the ME, she didn’t believe me. heh
Yes, that was sarcasm. Bitter sarcasm.
I’m sorry not to have made that clear.
Yes, it was sarcasm. Bitter, and OBVIOUS.
Some folks need to tune up their clue-meters.
“But their goal is NOT to open up this activity to women. That is only a means. Their goal is to change the very nature of the activity, to DESTROY it. To destroy anything traditionally masculine. To destroy the very idea of masculinity.”
Bingo!!
You are a “feminist”.
I specifically referred to “politicized Feminists” — capital-F Feminists — those to whom Feminism is essentially a religion.
Colonel McSally (mentioned in the column) flew Warthogs in Afghanistan. I’m sure she’s been shot at. A-10s are known for getting into the enemy’s armpit before firing.
IMHO, few if any of the professional politicized Feminists know what it’s like to take enemy fire, and yet your duty is to press on in and take out the target, come what may.
Feminists are irrational. Rational people don’t care about the opinions of those who are irrational, except as it relates to getting treatment for them.
From where did the nuclear trained submarine qualified women come from that they are ready to take a sub out filling the positions from CO to messcook? If this is a true story, then it is really an example of political correctness allowing common sense to go away.
Political correctness NEVER allows common sense to go away.
Political correctness always seeks out common sense and destroys it.
Can we assume that the Obama daughters will be enlisting for combat roles as soon as they are of age?
No, I imagine that like their father, they will join a political committee involving military affairs and then claim that they “served.”
No animal, in the wild even, makes its female members do the fighting.
I have a pack of Beagles, and the old male, who you’d think wouldn’t ever hurt a flea, and who is run ragged by the girls in almost every way, is still the one who, when they are confronted by a bad situation, turns in two seconds into a puffed-up, bouncing, deadly warrior. The girls all stand behind him, though. Like, ten feet behind!
Once the problem is over, he goes back to quiet, nice, sweet, friendly Jakie. Isn’t that the very picture of what we want our soldiers to be? Why do stupid Beagles understand this, but we don’t?
What’s next? Old people? Children? The mentally incapable? Certainly examples can be found of all three somewhere in history, fighting for their lives, against all odds? What in Hell does that have to do with who we want fighting our wars? Are these women supposed to bring something useful to our men, something they, the men, are lacking? Are we so ashamed of winning that we require our soldiers to lose? Do we really need to complicate their lives in the trenches with female situations and relationships? Probably, alas. They’ve already destroyed most police departments, and caused bloat in their staffs, because when you send women to a bad situatoion, you also need to send a male, lest some harm befall her.
Why do liberals have this obscene desire to make every one of our forebears look like idiots? What has the Left ever done, except completely screw up the very good and decent society they bequeathed to us?
An honest poll among Americans would definitely show we are not in favor of these stupid ideas but they never disdain to ask us. Let’s vote out everyone in Congress and require they fire every bureaucrat, and then start from scratch. We were the first country to successfuly establish itself through revolution. Can we show the world how to reinvent real Republicanism, done properly?
In large measure, it’s up to us.
The Russians in World War II and the Israelis in their many existential battles tried putting women alongside men in infantry combat roles and found it didn’t work. It seems that men can become accustomed to other men screaming with their bellies ripped by a shell splinter and their intestines hanging out but strangely went to pieces a/k/a became ineffective when the same inevitable fate fell upon women. So on a purely pragmatic basis, mixing men with women, like chess pieces, is a stupid idea.
Pragmatism aside, what world will we create when the very last of the sexual roles, that of men to kill without blinking, and of women to give and unconditionally protect life, is discarded?
“Pragmatism aside, what world will we create when the very last of the sexual roles, that of men to kill without blinking, and of women to give and unconditionally protect life, is discarded?”
THAT is the real question.
Will this brave new world, where there is no yin-and-yang, no masculine and feminine, be one of blissful unity? Or will it, as I think, be a tedious hell?
“It seems that men can become accustomed to other men screaming with their bellies ripped by a shell splinter and their intestines hanging out but strangely went to pieces a/k/a became ineffective when the same inevitable fate fell upon women.”
This actually suggests men become “weaker”/less effective when women are fighting alongside of them, not that women and their “special needs” necessarily slow them down.
Interesting…
@[anonymous]woman:
“This actually suggests men become weaker/less effective when women are fighting alongside of them…Interesting.”
Quite correct.
But what are YOU trying to accomplish?
Maximizing battlefield effectiveness, which should be the only objective?
Or converting the battlefield into a social policy laboratory, regardless of its effect on battlefield effectiveness?
This kind of thinking as already had its way with integrating open homosexuals into the military. There can be no doubt that homosexual men are capable of meeting the same physical standards as heterosexual men. But battlefield integrity is lost when soldiers stop being comrades and start being lovers. It has nothing to do with approval or disapproval of someone’s technique of showing affection. It has to do with relationships that have no place whatsoever on the battlefield.
What men become when fighting alongside women is men. They become protective of their women which is the natural reaction (and not something any sane woman would want suppressed). The Israelis discover this long ago – when men in integrated units suffered much higher casualties because they were fighting to protect the women.
Well, sir, that depends on the definition not so much of “sane” as of “woman”. If the definition is purely anatomical, then there is obviously at least one “woman” in our company who manifestly rejects a man who would as instinctively protect her as a mother would instinctively protect her young. If the definition is as it has been for, oh, ten thousand years, where one man and one woman want what the French respectively call “content” and “contente”, see J. Glenn Gray’s “The Warriors” chapter on love and war, then the complementary roles work to much mutual satisfaction [and contentment].
It may be hard to believe–
But Sen. Scott Brown is a Republican–not a Democrat-
“In February, Sen. Scott Brown (D-Mass.) wrote Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, urging him to “go further” in opening combat role”
Do please define you arguments better————
SSR
Problems:
*Very few women can hump 90 # of Battle Rattle.
*Very few women can hump “Joes” (155mm artillery shells) and powder.
*Women have to drop trou to pee so the whole column has to stop. Then we have body shyness issues, as well.
*Shower points become an issue very quickly, especially with hundreds of horny 19 year old males milling about with a bar of soap and a dream.
*Female “supplies” can become a logistics nightmare. Once had to trade tires for tampons and we were lucky to get that.
*When women are pregnant, they remain on the TO&E holding a spot that will not be replaced for the duration of the pregnancy and recovery. So, in a platoon of 100 soldiers, if ten are preggers, they are nondeployable. So, the unit goes in a squad short even though the numbers indicate they are full.
*Men fight over women. Doesn’t matter what they look like. Territories will be set. After a few weeks, everything female becomes “Field Cute.”
Men tend to protect women. Instinctive and will get you killed.
*Women use sex to manipulate. There are always morale problems when NCO’s get involved with junior female soldiers. Divorce, uneven enforcement of discipline, etc.
*I was in for 30+ years. from Vietnam to Afghanistan. Won’t work.
*But I am also retired to the country and am pretty much self-sufficeint. So good luck. This could become quality entertainment when viewed from a distance.
Our military does not protect our borders, they engage in stupid ultra costly campaigns to win muslim “hearts and minds”, so why not go full bore and make it just one giant sociology experiment and total farce?
The government’s authority ultimately comes from the marines. What happens if the marines say no?
“…When you put your hand in a pile of goo that was, until a moment ago, your best friend’s face…you’ll know what to do.” – Gen. Geo. S. Patton
Imagine if that pile of goo was a woman who was beside you on the firing line.
“How stylish.” – Det. Harry Calahan
The issue is the simple fact that women, even in their relegated roles of “in the rear with the gear” are getting injured and killed in the line of duty. There is no “front line” in Iraq or Afghanistan. The days of having battles like WWII are long gone. And when these women get hurt, they run into the paperwork nightmare that is the VA, both at the state and federal level. I don’t agree with them being on the front lines, but its utterly insane that they have their benefits restricted because “technically” they weren’t front line deployed.
Sort of in a similar fashion, I have done multiple war zone deployments according the military, the VA, and the rest of the federal government. But because of the retarded manner in which my home state defines a combat zone, they consider me not a combat vet. I only learned this when I applied for a scholarship in my state and was immediately turned down. Their definition is so screwed up that basically unless you get killed over there, my state does not consider you a combat vet. Now losing out on a scholarship is no big deal…having your health benefits restricted is complete BS.
That needs fixing. Although the military defines front lines as the leading edge of a push into an area.
Someone should get word to the insurgents as they clearly haven’t gotten that message…
First, let’s address special forces. I was a BUDS candidate who was medically washed out due to bronchopneumonia brought on by hypothermia. As a result of scarring, I was medically disqualified from diving. In my short time at BUDS, and having worked around the Spec War community my 21 years in the Navy, I can say with much certainty that no woman, under current conditions, could pass the Basic Underwater Demolitions School.
Whether are not 75% of respondents tell you they believe combat roles should be open to women, I’m not sure that’s how many actually do, I don’t know anyone in combat arms who wants to see it. They’ve been a disaster for Navy ship efficiency, but that’s a dirty little secret that no senior personnel will ever admit to because career advancement in this day and age’s military far surpasses combat readiness. For me, I’d like to see women’s roles in the military reduced. Not because SOME of them are not capable, but because on a whole they are more detrimental to the military than they are helpful.
I’m sure this will be met with a great deal of hate, but in 21 years of military service, I can count on one hand the number of women I’d want to go to war with, and that’s just too low of a number. I say get rid of all these college benefits and we can get rid of the wheat from the chaff and maybe get a bunch of useless men out of the military too.
Women in combat isn’t a problem though, it is a symptom, a symptom of a military with such technological superiority, and the lack of opposing force of equal presence that it can afford such social experiments. Back in the 80s, when I first joined, and the trough of benefits wasn’t so overflowing, and the Russians were perceived to represent a real threat of both Army and Naval forces, and predicted deaths among serviceman in a shooting war was predicted to be very high, I don’t remember quite so much eagerness to get to the front. In addition, when I first joined, the women were much more likely to prove themselves than they are today. Today they have the full backing of the political establishment and it shows in both productivity and attitude.
Very well said, sir.
Women do not belong anywhere near combat. Nowhere NEAR.
People who won’t defer, on such questions, to the common sense of those who, in combat, put their lives in the hands of their serving fellows, don’t deserve to be defended by military professionals. Quinnipiac University polls and the like should be irrelevant. Normal rules or opinions can’t apply rigidly to specialists in violence without destroying that specialization (because it is one that by its very nature is antithetical to the norms of productive society), just as you can’t seriously expect cops to police each other to the absolute letter of the normal law of society at large, on any and all infractions (e.g. unnecessary speeding), and still maintain the shared trust on which policing depends. In other words, the cops themselves have to draw the lines which can’t be crossed. They may have to bend to outside pressure, depending on the situation and events, but any attempt to rule largely from the outside, to overrule professional judgment, can only destroy the institution.
Resentment of such a given order, or difference, is tied to a desire to deny the paradoxes on which human difference is founded, e.g. to deny the need for some particularly masculine and martial cultures that can’t follow the same rules as normal ethical life if they are to survive.
Women, as (potential) child bearers generally have a different relationship to the Other than men. All too simply, it is a difference in how most of most likely internalize or externalize our sense of the Other. This will have various implications in the military arts.
The other day Barry Rubin linked to an interview of Edward Luttwak:
Q. “Are strategic minds nurtured through upbringing and education, or is the ability to think strategically an inborn gift, like mathematics?”
A. “It’s a gift like mathematics. The paradoxical logic of strategy contradicts the logic of everyday life, it goes against all normal definitions of intelligence we have. It only makes sense if you understand the dialectic. If you want peace, prepare for war. If you actively want war, disarm yourself, and then you’ll get war. Virile and martial elites understand that kind of thinking instinctively.”
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/76739/qa-edward-luttwak
How many men will ever trust the gut instincts of the average female commander in a combat situation where the risks/rewards of aggression vs. retreat, or waiting, are in the balance? If you try to answer that question by invoking the normal mores of society, you are’t really answering the question. We have to defer the combattants.
About the police- abuse brings about restriction. If the police do not show that they can be trusted to investigate and arrest one another for felonies, but instead cover up those felonies, then they need to be given dictatorial orders from the outside, regardless of what professional judgment requires. Will that result in dead officers? Maybe, but it can be avoided by police simply doing their jobs and not covering up crimes for one another.
how about 100 years of just gays and women doing combat?
me, i am damn tired, let them carry the burden for a while.
Martha McSally, a retired U.S. Air Force colonel and the first American woman to fly in combat, who vied for the Republican nomination to fill Arizona Democrat Gabrielle Giffords’ seat, said she wanted to kick Santorum “in the jimmy” for those remarks, arguing he’s “completely out of touch.”
This line probably got her a few chuckles and “atta girls.” So what do you suppose the reaction would be if Santorum offered to kick Martha McSalley in the genitals?
And therein lies the big, double standard.
I have no doubt that Col. McSalley served honorably and competently but anyone who believes that her gender or affirmative action had absolutely nothing to do with her advancement is lying to themselves. Her comment proves she knows there will be no repercussions for making a comment like that. She knows she can get away with it because she’s a woman.
Same physical requirements as male soldiers? Well, sorry for not buying that one, but the bar has already been lowered more than once in order to accomodate women. For most duty, it’s not that big of a deal. It is a big deal for Special Forces.
Wrong. It’s a big deal for ALL combat arms, ALL close support, and MOST support of any kind.
And it’s only ONE of the reasons women don’t belong in the military as if they were interchangeable with men.
It’s NOT just about physical strength, though that is the most obvious disqualifier.
The pinking up of the males or their traditional territories, in a nation is not a good idea.
It lowers the bar, lowers the standards and while the lefty delusionals are busy doing this …. the enemy is not.
But that of course would require clear, rational thinking. Is there any?
But the good news for all this ??
Protection for delusionals will be that much harder to accomplish. Nothing like shooting yourself in the foot.
1. Notice it is OFFICERS suing? I served in the Marines, then the Army and never once met an enlisted woman who wanted to be in the Infantry. When I was in a “non-combat” unit, the women were more than happy to sit around the office or armory while the men marched and went to the field. Only women officers looking for career advancement, and indifferent to the damage it will do, are interested in women in combat.
2. Women will never, ever, make it through USMC Infantry School or Army Ranger School in any appreciable numbers. Their lighter build makes it physically impossible for the almost all of them. The Canadians tried it – spectacular failure.
http://www.heretical.com/miscella/frcombat.html
Ranger, Schmanger. They can’t make it through Army Basic Combat Training, at least, not as it used to be, and still should be. (Actually, it should be tougher.)
I saw a lot of reasonably fit 18 year old guys wash out.
Old Soldier
Couldn’ agree with you more. Not to mention a very important fact.
That being, it is good for men to feel that those by their side are fully able to pick them up and carry them from the battlefield in case of injury. It is all round better for the morale.
But the lefty delusionals, with their pinked up crowd don’t think of things like that. It is only their utopia ideals that have any meaning for them.
They have absolutely no idea of how to build anything. All idiots.
Forgot about that one – we used to have relay races carrying each other over our shoulders.
The swan song has started. Should have put women in the NFL 1st to see how they fair against aggressive males wanting to win the Superbowl. They didn’t because money and fans are on the side of winning, not political correctness. Combat close enough to smell body fluids and other nasty things is very aggressive, very focused, very animalistic, very uncivilized, very personal. Women (or men) don’t have the right to step into this position, they are either forced into it or they must qualify by a test to be sent into this situation. At no time in human history has the female been the warrior. This is true for many physical and psychological reasons. PC will go (has gone) far creating a military that will lose the next important war. History teaches, but only if allowed.
When my son went to Iraq in a “security” role, his unit had some female M2 gunners. By the end of a year of getting shot at daily, each and every one of the women got tired of it, got pregnant, and got the hell home, each and every one. They have a built in parachute and plenty of guys willing to pull the ripcord when/if they change their mind about getting shot at.
Right. It was only, what, three years ago when the Democrats controlled both houses of congress with a new left wing democratic President? That democratic monopoly of political power was the situation for two years in Washington. Hope and change was in the air. And what did they get accomplished? Was the democratic dream act easily passed, that is to say, amnesty for illegal aliens? No. Were taxes easily raised on the rich one percent to have them pay their “fair share.” No. Did congress open up combat positions to females or have Selective Service Registration required of all females as with males? No. Did those democrats get the re-importation of cheaper drugs from Canada approved, something republicans always apposed? No. Did those democrats get Wall Street’s to big to fail banks down sized or force their senior bondholders to take a haircut? No. And Nancy Pelosi’s future granddaughter will someday have to register for the draft? Yeah, right. And Obamacare, if the court’s intellectually honest, will probably get thrown out. But I think the democratic highpoint over the last three years was the Weinerman flashing the ladies over the internet and now gays get to flash openly in the army. It’s a hell of a record to run away from with unemployment still over 8 percent and the economy tanking six months before the election.
Female troops add to fears about unit cohesion in rear echelon troops. The men are bad enough. “When the balloon goes up, put the wife & kids in the car and I’m heading to Switzerland.” We sane ones doing rear echelon work (aviation) made a note of this and also noted which officers would likely to function in chaos and live-fire and which would not.
The situation is worsened by Hollywood and myths and a lack of language:
-Guys know how to shoot
-Grease ‘em with full-auto
-A robust, clear-eyed male, trained to shoot in Basic, can do the job
-Females are not shooters
-There is only a handful of words with overlapping definitions available to discuss rifle ability (marksmanship; sharpshooter) and the learning curve is UNKNOWN
SOLUTION: After training has been completed, females (including officers) need to have more target practice. This would be on accurate .177 air rifles with adjustable sights, indoors, at 10 meters. It should be done at least until some become “Proficient.” When that point is reached, it will show up in the increased scores in the annual or semi-annual range visits to fire their issue rifles and pistols. The females will be scoring better than the males. A few will be Proficient.
This will change perception and eradicate feelings that the females are an extra burden when things go wrong and there is live-fire. Scuttlebutt will shift. “Well, if they ever get into the warehouse area, you’ll have to get Little Emmy-Lou off her computer to come and save us with her rootin’ tootin’ carbine.”
THE CAUSE OF THE GENERAL SITUATION: The learning curve of learning rifle Proficiency is unknown. Hint: It is like learning to play the violin.
The curve has two segments. The first part is short and rises steeply. It is the Equipment Familiarity part, where one learns what things are and what they do. The curve flattens after that. Everyone judges the flattening as the end. It is not. It is the beginning of the Long Plod, the very long part of the learning curve. At the far end is a region called Proficiency.
The Long Plod is the educating of the eye as to where the sights show the bullet will go, teaching the finger to ooze the trigger forward so as not to disturb a good sight alignment and to stop when alignment worsens and forming an automatic link between eye and finger. The conscious mind gradually becomes a spectator. All (ALL) who keep doing this slow-fire practice, firing an aimed shot and inspecting the result, eventually go to reside somewhere in Proficiency.
The skills are not lost through disuse. They transfer freely among rifles and pistols. Any Equipment Familiarity needed is learned much quicker.
Female officers who approach Proficiency or attain it can be expected to take an interest in the scores and practice needs of subordinates. Though they may not know words to discuss anything, they know the learning curve from the far end and know how to drag everyone behind them.
First observed over 250 years ago, the Hermann Phenomenon is the fact that if a Proficient civilian is put in the army and thrust into live-fire, he (she) will average 1.5 shots per hit/kill. This was true in live-fire with flintlock rifles and has been consistent through the present. A Proficient person is one who has completed the Long Plod and resides somewhere out there in Proficiency. Generally, if they can see it, they can hit it. They will not willingly fire a miss, but in live-fire, well, s**t happens.
Military training brings a person up to the top of Equipment Familiarity, at the start of the Long Plod, and leaves them there as there appears to be nothing more of use.
Push the females forward from that and the feelings of them being a burden if things go bad will be counterbalanced by their demonstrated better rifle/pistol performance.
If individual females happen to get into live-fire and have been put out there somewhere on the Long Plod, an armed enemy will be seen as a target. They will know in an instant whether they can service it. They would consider the serviced target as less dangerous than if left alone and will behave accordingly. They will not spray-‘n’-pray.