Why Did Germany Honor an Israel-Basher?
But the text of Wicker’s award speech clearly reveals that Langer was honored not despite her anti-Israeli invective, but precisely because of it. More precisely, it shows that government officials were fully aware of what author Ralph Giordano has called Langer’s encouragement of the “widespread” tendency in Germany to “unload the burden of one’s own guilt via criticism of Israel.” Giordano, who has written numerous books on the Third Reich and Germany’s troubled relation to its Nazi past, is one of the Merit Cross recipients who has threatened to return his award.
Describing Langer’s professional and political activities in Israel, Wicker told her:
Moved by the treatment of the Palestinians after the Six Day War as well as since the occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, you saw it henceforth as your task to defend the underprivileged in Israel and in the neighboring occupied territories. …
For 23 years you fought against expropriations, the destruction of homes and deportations.
Your clients informed you about torture, forced confessions, deportations in violation of international law, and punishments resembling clan-liability such as the tearing down of suspects’ houses.
In those trying times, you accomplished much. …
Note the two references in quick succession to “deportations,” an idiom that clearly suggests that Israelis are guilty of “Nazi-like” crimes. The reference to “punishments resembling clan-liability” [sippenhaftähnliche Bestrafungen] likewise carries a strong whiff of the Third Reich. “Sippenhaft” is the practice of punishing family members for an individual’s alleged crimes. The Nazis were notorious for employing this form of punishment: notably, against members of the resistance in the occupied territories.
The full import of these remarks, moreover, can only be appreciated on the background of Wicker’s previous remarks on Langer’s childhood and family history. Langer was born in Poland in 1930 and she is reported to have fled to the Soviet Union with her family in 1939 following the German invasion. (At the time, roughly half of Polish territory was, in any case, directly annexed to the Soviet Union.) She thus in fact escaped persecution, but she has referred to herself, nonetheless, as an “indirect” Holocaust survivor, “since directly my husband is a survivor.” (For the full quote and source, see here.)
Wicker’s speech likewise, in effect, elevates Langer to the status of an “indirect” Holocaust survivor:
None of us who were born after the War can properly appreciate the human suffering and decades-long grief that have marked your life.
The only thing that remains for us today is to bow down in respect before the victims and the obligation to do everything we can so that this sort of thing [Derartiges] never happens again.
This sort of thing?! But Wicker’s description of Israeli treatment of the Palestinians clearly suggests that “this sort of thing” is happening again — namely, in the Middle East. Employing precisely the same convoluted logic as Wicker, Felicia Langer has in fact explicitly called on Germany to intervene in the Middle East conflict on behalf of the Palestinians. “Germans,” she has said, “have not only the right, but the obligation, to intervene. Precisely because they kept silent once before.” (For full quote and source, see here.)
The text of Wicker’s award speech has been published on the pro-Palestinian German website Das Palästina Portal. The revealing motto of the site is “Never Again — No One — Nowhere.” The obvious implication is that something like the Holocaust is now happening again (“Never Again”) — not in Europe, but in the Middle East (“Nowhere”) and not to Jews, but to Palestinians (“No One”). In the view of Das Palästina Portal and Felicia Langer, the Jews have become the perpetrators. Hubert Wicker and the government of Baden-Württemberg evidently share this assessment. Does German President Horst Köhler agree?
Considering the German people’s long history of butchering Jews, this can hardly be surprising.
My uncle lived in Germany from the early 1970s to 2000. He’s ultra-fluent in the language, and can state with no hesitation that the Germans haven’t changed a bit since the war.
Why did the Prezi of the USA go out of his way to honour two prominent anti Israel anti Zionist and anti Jew personalities (Robinson of Ireland / TuTu of South Africa ). I suppose being anti Israel is in vogue and very very acceptable throughout the western world today. I gather a loud and longstanding member of the anti Israel movement in Australia also received the Australian Peace Medal/award. Seems the 1930s are upon us again.
The descendants of the murderous Nazis have been trying for decades to either erase, explain or wash away their country’s genocidal Holocaust roots.
By honoring Langer they have found their poster woman for their exculpation. Like manna from heaven, this Jewish self hater, having roots in the Holocaust, having lived in Israel, and being one of its most vituperative maligners is the PERFECT pick for their dubiously distinguished award.
IF we were living in Orwell’s parallel universe we could not have conjured up a more ‘appropriate’ recipient.
Obama, by honoring another Jew/Israel hater, Mary Robinson, viscerally shares the same anti- American and anti-Israel animus which his recipient Robinson instinctively feels.
Birds of an anti-semitic feather…..They too shall crash and burn.
Im a troubled by this: it has ever been a classic trick of antisemitism to depict Israel in the darkest colors: if Israel is evil then Nazis weren’t so bad after all.
To Michelle:
Denazification of German minds wasn’t effective before well into the 60s and Schindler ended leaving Germany after growing weary of being called a traitor (and on an least an, coocasion being fined for having punched the guy who insulted him). Also the Germans confront the dark corners in their pasts far more openly than the French: just compare number of movies about Nazism in Germany and collaboration in France. Also I would tell that there is less antisemitism in Germany than in France both from the in you
face variety and the chic-one disguised as concern for the pooooooooor Palestinians. However I have to tell that the Germans I know are not average Germans.
I lived and worked throughout Europe for the entire 1970 decade. I’ve studied 7 languages and lived and worked in different countries and cultures around the world for 40 years of my life. I have the bona fides to make the following statement:
Most Europeans are anti-semitic. Some in the way of the Connecticut matron: “But many of my friends are Jews!” Some in more obvious ways. But MOST, under the covers, are hard anti-semites!
Michelle:
Considering the German people’s long history of butchering Jews, this can hardly be surprising.
My uncle lived in Germany from the early 1970s to 2000. He’s ultra-fluent in the language, and can state with no hesitation that the Germans haven’t changed a bit since the war.
—————————–
yeah the Germans havn´t changed a little bit since the war. it´s still common that you see Jews beeing forced to clean german streets with toothsbrushes, and of course don´t forget to mention all the death camps they opend again this days. yeah they are all NAZIS, it´s in their genes to hate and kill jews… When will people like you learn that beeing critical of the state of Israel not nessesary mean that you are an anti semite. but ok never let reality get in your way when it´s so much easier to bash a whole country without any evidence.
“just compare number of movies about Nazism in Germany and collaboration in France. Also I would tell that there is less antisemitism in Germany than in France both from the in you”
Allright, again your delirium
uh oh, I acknoledge that we didn’t make Hitler bio, but you don’t know how many TV series and reports there were…
Also I wonder on which basis you’re stating so, Uh, from the last lefty manifestation in front of a Shephora store, that a well intentionned well known blogger managed to associate with a Hitler pic ?
And this isn’t the first time that she demonises us, she showed a video in mars, also saying that we were all antisemits (but young french jews were manifesting along too), with moult pics of the nazy propaganda machine, supposed to be the Parisians during WW2 : they were scenarised for propaganda purpose among Europe, to show how Nazis were cool, though if you ask to the parisian still alive, they would say BS, they were starving ; one of my mother sisters was living there at the same moment, I don’t remember that she was telling that the german occupation was fun
if you also think so, I dont want to eat the same apple that you did, it must be a malicious one
now, you don’t read german forums, some people are really questionning the evilness of national socialism
Besides, this famus blogger set some stats last january about antisemitism in EU, Hungary had the highest rank, France and UK the lowests, even with the amount of muslims that we bear
forreigner,
Try dropping the exta “r” from your moniker – at least if you want it to look good in English.
History doesn’t repeat itself exactly. Jews are not being forced to scrub die Lindenstrasse with toothbrushes – yet.
But Germans nod with quiet approval when Moslem terrorists murder Jews – ja, ja, ist gut, you can here them muttering into the beer steins.
Jew-hatred – judenhasse – is back in vogue. Only now it is masked as sympathy for the “poor ‘Palestinians’”, the Arabs who want to murder us off – and plenty of self-hating Jews and stupid hacks, like Norm Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, and Felicia Sanger, are all along on the judenhasse express, chugging past Tehran and Riyadh to the cheering of millions.
We Jews are all alone – just as the Torah warned us we would be. But we do have one Ally, and on Him we can rely. The day will come when all Jew-haters will crash and burn – and I supect it may not be too long from now.
I bid you all a good Sabbath from Samaria,
Ruvy
Ruvy:
sorry but you couldn´t be more wrong.
If anything is increasing in Europe it´s the
fear of non controlled muslim immigration to “our” countries. Again to criticise
the actions of the Israeli government does not make you a anti semite. Jews are not specially hated in germany (of course if you dig far enought you will find an idiot “like in every country” who will tell you exactly the opposite) but this is not the “norm”. How i know that? because i live in Austria myself (you know this little country which produced Adolph) and there for know many people from Austria and Germany. and i guarantee you that there is no hate against jews in generell. (many people criticise the state Israel for its actions true, but this has nothing to do because of the fact that most people who are living there are jewish) because i guarantee you that most jews who are living in countries like germany or austria are not even viewed as “jews” they are viewed as Austrian or German citizen first just like everyone else who is born and lives here. No one specially cares if they are “jews” or not. They are just normal citizens. so don´t tell me that everybody hates jews in general here because i guess i know it better because i live here.
Ruvy,
Foreigner ? iveri bodi knows that I’m french, and that the moniker is my name
you said you’re alones, but we, too, are alones in this orchestred Kabal
anyway thanks for your appeasing words
Ruvy, and a Shabbat Shalom to you.
Judea & Samaria – the heartland of Zion!
60 years of deprogramming on many levels for contemporary Germans has done little. Its as if anti-semitism is in their genetic structure.
I believe this is indicative of much about European world-views and psychology. A look at their behavior over the past few hundred years is an exact picture of the sorts of events we can expect to see there in the future.
Oh, come ON Marie, Tell us how much you absolutely DESPISE Napoleon.
Scott what about your Adam Smith, thrown under the bus ?
oops, I’m goin to Burk
Oh my I just discovered my error, scuse me, I didn’t see the “foreigner” nic
“it´s still common that you see Jews beeing forced to clean german streets with toothsbrushes, and of course don´t forget to mention all the death camps they opend again this days.”
No it isn’t, but not thanks to the Germans, but to the Americans. That’s why America and the Americans are hated so much when we ought to be grateful for what they did for us. Evidence? A daily look at the German media and an ear close to the man in the street.
Yes, all you Germany bashers are absolutely, totally and eternally right: We Germans simply can’t stop hating jews because it’s in our genes. We can’t stop hating jews because they made us murder them. We can’t stop hating jews, because they now have such a lovely state on the always sunny shores of the mediterranian sea. We can’t stop hating jews because the girls are much prettier than ours. We can’t stop hating jews because they get our submarines for nothing. We can’t stop hating jews, bacause some of our most intelligent journalists are jews. We can’t stop hating jews because you need a reason to hate us.
When will we ever learn our lesson, dissolve our nation and become French? Or, even better, Swiss?
(Remember the fortunes of tens of thousands of murdered jews still being in swiss banks?)
Evidence? A daily look at the German media and an ear close to the man in the street.
———————
then it should be no problem to back up your claims. just show me all this reports of the german media who spill hate against jews in general (not the one criticising the actions of the state of Israel because as said this is a total different topic). and btw. do you live in Germany so you can listen what the “man on the street” talks? Because i can because german is my mother tounge and i have not noticed any increase in anti semitism. Nor did i notice that jews who are living (and like it) here fear something like that.
Heinz,
better choose Switzerland cuz we are more on the board than you, and you soon regret your choice
Heinz,
I have no special animosity for y’all. Actually I’ll take germans over frogs most every time. Of late I’ve come to especially disdain brits. Fact is its Eurabia in general that sticks in my ( and our ) craw. We kinda wish you’d just take your elitist big government loving BS and choke on it.
Scott, Roosvelt too !
Marie Claude
Get a satellite dish and watch ZDf or Das Erste a bit and see how frequent are movies and doumantaries about Nazism. I have to add however that French and German antisemitism are both far less extended that some people in this blog are saying and not as bad as in countries (example Spain) who stood out of WWII and so don’t feel guilty about the Shoah.
<i<not the one criticising the actions of the state of Israel because as said this is a total different topic)
Really? Then tell me where are the critics to Soudan abput the genocide in Darfur and to Arab countries who support it? Or is it because they are just Blacks? Also tell why there so much sympathy is lavished to peolle who don’t look precisely to be starving, who have tried to bomb maternities and who have repeatedly asserted that their ultimate goal is genocide? I will tell you why thseo people feel so much sympathy for Palestinains instead of for Balck Soudanese, Burmese or Greek Cypriots: because they want to finish Hitler’s job.
Marie-Claude pourquoi? J’aime bien la France et votre savoir-vivre. Je ne sais rien de quelque antisemisme en France, mais d’un pays indépendant et fier.
Marie,
Yeah, Teddy was a mensch.
A Medal of Freedom for her in 2010. Mary Robinson got one this year for her part in denouncing the “racist” Zionists.
JFM
Ich kenne Deutschland, besides Arte shares both programs in german and french, it’s not a week that we have a report on these years, and I can read german too.
Also it’s often that series treat these years, in all the aspects.
Some were complaining of our lefty medias, and these medias are happy when they emphasize the carricatures ; so don’t say we never want to talk of this past, that had the white and the black faces, fortunately the whites were more numerous.
but you were still in your lunatic line,as far as your old deamons, and it’s not likely to be repeared anytime anymore
uh my post got swallowed, thanks for editing it
JFM, may I ask you how the Greek Cypriots got into your row of endangered people?
Just two years ago I’d have firmly denied that my native land Germany still is an antisemitic country.
But since then (just a selection):
– Muslim/Hamas demonstrators unhampered marched through German streets shouting: “Death to Israel! Death to all Jews!”
– German police men stormed an apartment by force (!!) to remove two Isreali flags from the windows in order to please a Muslim pro-Hamas mob outside the house.
– the commentary sections of the web pages of leading German newspapers and magazines burst under the flood of “antizionistic” statements while the few pro-Israel statements often get removed by the editors.
Germany loves dead and defenseless Jews (and builds large memorials for them) – it doesn’t sympathize with strong and living Jews.
Dear Israelis: Despite the lip service our chancellor (Angela Merkel) and our Federal President (Horst Köhler) paid before the Knesset – dont’t count on Germany when the existence of your country is at stake. You’ll get fine words – but no deeds.
P.S.:
To be fair, I shouldn’t forget to mention the small non-jewish “pro-Israel-opposition” in the German internet. Three outstanding examples:
http://spiritofentebbe.wordpress.com
http://www.lizaswelt.net
http://heplev.wordpress.com
Ger-Man: The blogs you are mentioning are well known as anti-german-hate-blogs. You should have said that too. In terms of fairness.
The difference between anti-Semitic and anti-Islamic hatreds in Germany and throughout Europe is, that anti-Semitism is at least officially banned, while Islamophobia is treated as an expression of freedom of speech (see Matti Bunzl). This does not mean that there is no anti-Semitism any more, there is, but it is at least seen as a problem. Instead, Islam-bashing seems to belong to mainstream discourses (s. Schiffer/Wagner: Anti-Semitism and Islamophobie – a comparative analysis). Unfortunately only for those who read German – but an English description you will find here: Anis-Online down the page… Take care!
I recall Felicia Langer creating news in Israel in the ’70s, in the best Soviet agit-prop tradition. She was terrorists’ defendant in court (a voluntary task she enthusiastically self-appointed to, since anyone being on trial in Israel is entitled to a lawyer) and their vocal media advocate. I now discover that she recycled herself to a 2nd career. Talk about a Red-Brown alliance.
Ger-Man
Germany loves dead and defenseless Jews (and builds large memorials for them) – it doesn’t sympathize with strong and living Jews.
And it’s not the only European country to suffer from the syndrome.
Israeli liveliness and creativity is the best Jewish response to such perversity.
@ 32. Heinzelmännchen:
“The blogs you are mentioning are well known as anti-german-hate-blogs.”
The named blogs criticize German antisemitism, too, so yes: proud German Jew-hating nationalists may see it this way.
Ger-Man, no joke about names, please or should I call you Spießer? (ger=spieß) Although I guess you don’ even have one…
JFM, may I ask you how the Greek Cypriots got into your row of endangered people?
When the Trurks invaded and stole their lands (Palestinainas got good monry for them) and contrarily to Palestinians, who BTW aren’t endangered, they haven’t spend the last sixty years living at our expenses, haven’t used our tax money building Kassams and last but not least haven’t ever tried to bomb maternities and raised theur children in a mudreous hate who would sicken an SS colonel. Now tell me how much time you and those other people who aren’t antisemitics have spent crikticizing Turkey and how much energy have they spent on the Greek Cypriot cause?
@ 37. Heinz L. Mann:
Since Heinz L. Mann obviously is not a name but a nickname (Heinz L. Mann = Heinzelmann = Heinzelmännchen = brownie/leprechaun), and therefore is a joke in itself, the rule “no jokes with names” is not applicable.
(Btw: I myself, with or without a “Spieß” in my possession, have no objections against you calling me “Spießer”.)
Marie Claude said
Ich kenne Deutschland, besides Arte shares both programs in german and french, it’s not a week that we have a report on these years, and I can read german too.
Please Marie Claude
Arte has a very small market share in France and a microscopic one, perhaps under 1% in Germany. I am not speaking of a tax-payer funded channel for intellectuals but mainstream ones funded totally or partly by advertisers and whose revenue depends on how many spectators they have. Now go and watch ZdF for a couple weeks and take a look at how many movies about the dark years, jews hiding, germans looking the other way or sharing the iron dream and compare with fictions centered on the occupation years in TF1 or in one of the mainstream (NOT Arte) public channels.
Ich kann auch ein bischen Deutsch. Môchten Sie lieber dass wir siezen oder duzen?
Heinz, I don’t remember the name of this theorician that said a nation needs to focus on an “enemy” to unify, that whatever rumors necessary to undermine it isn’t considered as a sin, if the goal is to be effective.
I know that the “conservatives” attribute this strategy to Alinsky for the Democtats, though I read that that was also the strategy of Bush’s advisers –>Bremmer, Wolfowitz… who got it from a warfare “neocon” theorician.
And we were the convenient scpagoats to “hate”
Also that an insidious campain to spread paranoia among our jewish population was launched by Sharon’s hawks, for them to rejoin Israel, yes we have also the 2nd biggest jewish community abroad after the US, and it interests her, it is needed to compensate the lack of birth rate, cuz, as a developped country Israeli don’t make more children than in western countries, while their neighbours are prolific.
So we can see that the Alinsky’s method, or whoever other theorician’s is applied for our country too.
Though, I don’t think that this policies will be successful in the long term, cuz, instead of generating sympathy, it is generating more indifference, disdain,and or “hate”
As far I am concerned, I wasn’t aware how much american and israeli “conservatives” hated us, it was when I accidently came on to on egytian blog squatted by american conservatives during the “carricatures” events, there I found insults and hate, excepted from a few.
Now I acknoledge that things moved to a more positive appreciation since Sarkozy, their favorite candidate too, won our presidential elections
But as you said we are a proud and independant nation, so I expect our relations will remain on a doubtful trust, except among the soldiers, that experience brotherhood in front of dangers, they appreciate each others.
Ger-Man, I have no interest in calling you names, but please respect mine too: Heinrich (short form: Heinz) Ludwig Mann is my real name. My father was a man of great humour. Indeed many peaople call me heinzelmännchen but only close friends and family. You belong to none of these. I beg you to respect this.
Do you not remark that the prevailant tendency of generalization is already in the good old tradition of anti-Semitism? There is no such entity as “the Germans”, or “the Jews” or “the Muslims” or “the Palestinians” – herewith racism beginns. And it is a manipulative strategy to judge “the others” by pickung out “the wrong Jew” they are supporting – this is also in its nucleus anti-Semitic. Israel is not a Jewish question, but misused by anti- and philo-Semits and many diaspora-Jews as describes Jeff Halper in an Australian newspaper.
JFM/Anonymous: May I kindly remind you of the true story of Cyprus? Before the Turks invaded the island – which was not legal, of course – an extremist group of Greek Cypriots tried with support of the Greek Colonel’s Dictatorship to unify Cyprus with Greece. The Turks saw their interests in the island endangered and therefore sent troops saying the Turk inhabitants should be evaded by the Greeks and they would have to protect them. Please: Don’t mix up reasons and consquences. The Greeks were the first to attack Turkish people in Cyprus.
By the way: there is no proof for any Turk support of the Palestinian people. On the contrary the Turks are cooperating with Israel in many fields.
oh I guess some “truths” was disturbing, my post got “removed”
Germany loves dead and defenseless Jews (and builds large memorials for them) – it doesn’t sympathize with strong and living Jews…
———————————-
you couldn´t be more wrong. Indeed for me as a Austrian it´s astounding to watch all the a$$ kissing the german government still does to the state of Israel. “official” Germany is one of the strongest supporters of Israel. but to stay on topic what to hell has Israel to do with jews living around the globe? people like you love to blame anyone who (in my personal impression) “rightfully” criticise some actions of the state of Israel as anti semites. a question where are all this jew hating people in germany “who as you said loves dead jews”? because i cannot see them in large numbers in your country. shure if you dig far enought you will find some people who hates jews just for beeing jews. but you will also find people hating blacks just for beeing black… and the list goes on and on. but as said this is not like it´s the majority. and you will find people like this in every country in this world. so again show me the special hate against jews in germany. (btw. there exists enought breeding ground for hate against different people in general in our countries…) How about the hate against muslims? ring a bell? because this really exists in large numbers. (btw. i´m not a fan of musslim immigration to my country too). but just simple i can not see all this hate you talk about pointed against jews who are living here. oh i know it´s common to bash the state Israel for it´s actions but i really can´t remember someone telling me “man i really hate all jews”
I dunno what is the new re-programmation of this site, there are bizarre things tha happen when I post
I wanted to bring the Godwin’s law to your knoledge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
its applications are well spread nowadays
Mr Heinz es Klein
Ca, I remind you the true history of the Palestinians? How most of them desvcend from people who came to Judea after the Sionist colons, the pogroms in the thirties, that the founder of the Palestinian movement and national icon both in Fatah and HamasLand was genocide, r of Armeninans and Hitler’s friend Amin Husseini? Nobody said Greek Cypriots were faultless but their sins and crimes are far fewer and less grievious than those of Palestionans and however curiously you aren’t whinning about their fate despite the fact they haven’t got a thousndth of the international aid Palestinins get and that they don’t spend your money on Kassams. Oh, a,nd did I mention Darfur?
JFM
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/5/20090810/tcu-audiences-tv-arte-la-chane-ralise-un-bc6317b.html
Besides Sarkozy limited advertising spots on all national TV channels since last september, this caused a prejudice to private Cies of production, but improved the audimat of these channels that are on TNT
an idea of the reports and documentaires on the different channels, though not complete, listings only linked to the word “nazy”
http://documentaire.alwaysdata.net/rech-get.php?tag=nazi
Es ist mir egal, wenn du willst mich ziezen oder duzen,english vocabulary doesn’t make the difference
I don’t have the opportunity to get much of broad TV channels at the moment
What a silly question. Why do you think Germany honored an Israel-Basher?
JFM: Your confusion is speaking for itself. No answer necessary.
Hanses Klein
The way you skip hard questions speak for itself.
Some people are trying very hard to attack the (good)reputation of Germany. Why? Only guilty Germans are good Germans? Fact is that Germans tend to see the conflict in the Middle East a bit different than wished by Israel. Even when I force myself I cannot see the Palestinians as “Arabs” who used to settle in other Arabian countries and only came back to Israel to annoy the people there. During the 1970s I lived and studied in France and Britain. My teacher argued that Britain would be good for my personal development in democratic issues. Well, living abroad did not improve the quality of my genes, but reading the letters of my relatives supported my self-confidence. My brother of my father wrote, for example, on Hitler`s birthday:”Today is Adolf`s birthday. I am waiting for the day he dies”. Well, the crime of my relatives(and many others) was that they lived in Germany during the 3rd Reich. One relative was in prison in 1934. The family was shocked. We are a wide-spread family with relatives in Russia, India, USA, Canada, Switzerland, Denmark and Australia. All of them used to come to our house in Germany and eat my rather good cakes, while discussing the evil nature of the Germans. This year I said “NO”. I am fed up, simply fed up. I live in the South of Bad.-Württemberg, where people use to bless those who hate them. I am not prepared to do that but I try to hate nobody: The first victim of hate is the person who hates. Oh, yes, Frau Lange. I never heard the Name before, but now Frau Lange is well-known in Baden-Württemberg.
Foreigner,
Yes, we’ve heard of austria, and not just because it produced a man called adolph hitler, but also because it produced a large share of the most prominent nazi exterminators. Simon Wiesenthal, you’ve perhaps heard of him, stated that despite being only 8% of the reich population, the austrians made up 33% of the SS and were responsible for over 40% of the Jews murdered before the Allies put an end to it. Simon Wiesenthal, as we know, was not a popular man in austria. On the other hand, Kurt Waldheim was a very popular man in austria. When his concealed nazi past was revealed, he became more popular. Austria has never prosecuted any of its many war criminals. Quite the opposite actually.
Vienna went from a city with a large Jewish population in 1938 to a city with over half a million nazis after 1945.
Austria, quite simply, is a nation in denial. So your assurances about austria’s character are laughable.
JFM: First: You did not ask me any question.
Actually, the only thing you were doing was attacking me using false arguments. I am very sorry, but I can’t take someone serious who is not even able to get scientifically, historically proven facts right.
Marie Claude: Be sure, as long as American “Conservatives” or “Neocons” or “AIPAC” hate France, everything is alright with your country.
These people are really kicking Alexandre Tocqueville’s a$$.
And they’re to dumb to realize it.
Globally “conservatives” are nice people too, but some of the “gurus” (that lobbied the former administration) will rost in infernal abysses
When Heinz references AIPAC and neocons we know what he’s really saying. He is the perfect proof of how attitudes in germany haven’t really changed, just the vocabulary.
Gus, unfortunately, you’re in denying, these labels relly exist :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
Some of those identified as neoconservative reject the term, arguing that it lacks a coherent definition, or that it was coherent only in the context of the Cold War.
Conservative writer David Horowitz argues that the increasing use of the term neoconservative since the 2003 start of the Iraq War has made it irrelevant:[citation needed]
Neo-conservatism is a term almost exclusively used by the enemies of America’s liberation of Iraq. There is no ‘neo-conservative’ movement in the United States. When there was one, it was made up of former Democrats who embraced the welfare state but supported Ronald Reagan’s Cold War policies against the Soviet bloc. Today ‘neo-conservatism’ identifies those who believe in an aggressive policy against radical Islam and the global terrorists.
The term may have lost meaning due to excessive and inconsistent use. For example, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld have been identified as leading neoconservatives despite the fact that they have been life-long conservative Republicans (though Cheney has supported Irving Kristol’s ideas).
Some critics reject the idea that there is a neoconservative movement separate from traditional American conservatism. Traditional conservatives are skeptical of the contemporary usage of the term and dislike being associated with its stereotypes or supposed agendas. Columnist David Harsanyi wrote, “These days, it seems that even temperate support for military action against dictators and terrorists qualifies you a neocon.”[53] Jonah Goldberg rejected the label as trite and over-used, arguing “There’s nothing ‘neo’ about me: I was never anything other than conservative
tiens, marrant, ils aiment pas l’étiquette “neo” donc ce sont des vrais “cons” LMAO
rien que des amis à nous !
tous très pro-morals LMAO
gus: What am I really saying? Details, please!
gus:
Sorry but have i denied the nazi past of Austria? i guess not. I´m aware what happend in this country till 1945. But i don´t get your point because we live in 2009. Most people who had lived back then are long dead. so it´s laughable what i tell you about the people living in my country right now beacuse they produced some “good” Nazis in 1945? Let me guess it´s in the genes right? Hey Austria is not in denial why should we? (But you are correct if you assume that the people don´t feel guilty for something that happend long before “we” have been born and official Austria has no interest in good relations to the state of Israel if this would mean “we” would have to appologise again and again). But again i don´t get what Israel has to do with the fact how people in this country feel about jews in general. And like it or not Jews are not specially hated here. “They” are living along “us” and nobody specially cares nor are they hated. If it would be the case i would admit it but the truth is there is no special hate here pointed against jews. Shocking isn´t it? yeah Waldheim was voted so? (btw. his Nazi past has never been proven and he become general secretary of the UN years later too). Did Austria reopen the death camps because of that? answer No! so whats the problem? (that people here tend to vote for whom ever they want without asking foreign countries if it´s political correct?). And again you are wrong Austria has put it´s war criminals on trial. And did Simon Wiesenthal not had his office in Vienna? So if he has been hated (like you assume) so much why he lived and worked in Vienna without any problems? I know it´s hard for people like you to understand because it looks like it´s so much fun to brandish Austria and Germany as Nazi countries but like it or not most of Nazism and generell hate against jews has died out long long ago here. But as said if you dig far enought you will shure find someone who hate jews just for beeing jews and would admire the Nazis but again you will find some people like this in every country in this world. But they don´t exist in larger numbers here like every where else.
Simon Wiesenthal went to vienna quite simply because that’s where the nazis were, not because he liked the weather. And he had to live with armed guards around his office constantly. His chronicling makes a mockery of your notion that austrian nazis served justice. Try reading The Murderers Among Us sometime.
And if your only reaction to the election of kurt waldheim is ‘his nazi record can’t be proved’, then you are indeed in deep denial. We have a name for what you, kurt, and the rest of austria’s nazis and their apologists suffer from, it’s called Waldheimer’s Disease.
In germany it took 5 years from hitler’s election to kristallnacht. In austria it took less than five days from the anschluss until Jews were publicly beaten and forced to clean the streets while smiling crowds cheered. And then, Vienna’s 300,000 Jews were forced out and more than likely murdered by the austrians Wiesenthal describes in the example above. And after the war the Jews whom your countrymen did not have time to murder were not welcome back. Vienna had a new look by then: 500,000 unrepentant nazis lived there.
Justice delayed is justice denied. It took until the 1990s for austria to begin to admit its nazi past. By then of course, the guilty generation was mostly dead. But the crimes and even the attitudes of nazism as reflected in the willingness of the populations of austria and germany are so odious that the stink will not simply go away after a few years. I think subconsciously you understand that, and that is why you are in such denial.
Because austrians have been in denial about the true extent of their countries nazism, about the extent to which austrians participated in the murder of six million Jews, and about the extent of the postwar coverup, the legacy will haunt them even more than germany.
again you are telling me nothing new. as said i´m aware what happend in this country during the Nazi regime. (btw. they teach this in schools so much for the denial). so you are saying that “we” are not allowed to elect anyone we want in our country? btw. have i missed something? has austria reopend the death camps during waldheim was president or was there a increase in anti semitism during this time?answer no it wasn´t. so? you just showed me that you are not interested in whats really happening here. all you want is to contine repeating old stupid and btw. untrue sterotypes.
have a nice day!
Ok fine for me but it doesn´t make you look smarter. yeah Germans and Austrians are all Nazis. We are born with this gene which makes us to hate all jews from the day of our birth (this is what you wanted to hear right?) so contine to live in your ignorant fantasy world and never let reallity get in your way because this could be a real shock for you. Btw. do me a last favour google the “faith” of the Austrian cancelor (voted 3 times) Bruno Kreisky (in power from 1970-1983) it may be a real big suprise for you what “we” austrian nazis who never learn voted for. but because you are ignorant i will tell you. Psst please don´t tell anyone (would destroy this wonderfull stereotype about this never changing nazi country) but he was jewish
All I’ve mentioned about austria in the nazi period is that it took five days for austrians to start beating and humiliating Jews in public while it took five years in germany, and also that despite being only 8% of the reich’s population, austrians comprised 1/3 of the ss men who ran the murder camps and were responsible for the deaths of over 40% of the Jewish men, women, and children murdered by the nazis. Will you explicitly acknowledge either of these facts, or will you simply keep saying ‘yes I already learned all about it, there’s nothing to talk about’?
It’s quite simple really. It shouldn’t be that hard for you to do.
What are your thoughts on the fact that austrians were so overrepresented among the SS murderers of innocent women and children? What are your thoughts on the fact that these people returned home after the war and lived with impunity often in the very houses of the hundreds of thousands of members of the longstanding Jewish community who didn’t come back?
You brought up Wiesenthal as an example that Jews were received well in Vienna after the war. When I pointed out that Wiesenthal was there because that’s where the nazis were and that in fact Wiesenthal risked his life by being in Vienna, you simply dropped the subject. Why is that?
You also mentioned austrian war criminals being brought to justice under austrian auspices. Can you give me some examples? I can give you plenty of examples where quite the opposite happened–austrians brazenly refused to mete out justice to known war criminals despite the explicit wishes of international bodies. But I would like to see your examples, maybe I’ll learn something new.
Again, these are all events which took place AFTER the war, and yet your only response to all this is to say ‘I already know what happened during the war’, which in itself seems doubtful.
About waldheim you first say ‘nothing can be proven’ (which sounds like something sympathizers say about the guilty) and then you protest that austrians can elect whoever they want. You’re all over the place on that one. Sure, you can elect whomever you want, even a lying nazi like waldheim. And in response, the world can choose to isolate you for electing a war criminal, as they did. And yet, you actually seem to think the election of waldheim somehow is a perfectly acceptable thing for a country full of unrepentant ex-nazis to do.
So, you conveniently forget about waldheim and mention kreisky. Yes, it’s quite something for the very people who shot so many hundreds thousands of mothers in front of their children and children in front of their mothers simply for being Jewish and then felt absolutely no remorse afterwards to elect someone who a few years earlier they would have gladly murdered. I guess that’s something for austria to be proud of. However, if you look up Kreisky’s ‘faith’ you will see the answer is ‘none’. He came from Jewish origins, but he did not consider himself Jewish at all and never presented himself that way. So Austrians did not elect a Jew, although they did elect someone whom the nazis would have labeled a Jew. So if you want to refer to Kreisky as a Jew, it comes down to whose methodology you use. For an austrian, I suppose it’s natural to use the one that was most popular during the good old days.
Which brings up your other point. You keep saying that if austria was still antisemitic, then why weren’t Wiesenthal and the few remaining Jews rounded up and deported? The fact that austria’s few remaining Jews haven’t been sent off to lagers seems to be your trump card in proving that austria, which so willingly did send all its Jews to be murdered in living memory, is now clearly not an antisemitic story. Just step back and think about what that suggests. Indeed, you live in a society where anything short of murder, deportation, and government sanctioned public humiliation is indication of progress. Wow.
Conveniently for you, the dead cannot speak, so you can put blinders on and draw a line between the past and now and pretend there’s nothing wrong. You can pretend it’s normal that hundreds of thousands of Jews were taken from your country and murdered, to the great enthusiasm of the local population. And that there’s nothing wrong about the fact that hundreds of thousands of unrepentant nazis, including a disproportionately large share of actual SS murderers, replaced these disappeared Jews to give modern austria its current look.
You’re quite simply in denial and your evasiveness here proves it.
I should add: While indeed Jews haven’t been rounded up and deported from austria in recent decades, why is that? Is it because the austrians themselves put a stop to it, or is it because the allies came in and made them stop?
It’s the latter of course. Because the allies made them stop, not because they chose to. And if you want corroborating evidence, simply look to the fact that after the war, the austrians staunchly resisted attempts to hold the perpetrators resonsible. They held far greater animosity for the Allied ‘occupiers’ than they ever did for the german anschluss. They viewed austrian ss murderers as brave local heroes not as criminals. The Allies put a stop to the barbaric persecution by austrians, and that’s important to remember for people like foreigner.
gus:
All I’ve mentioned about austria in the nazi period is that it took five days for austrians to start beating and humiliating Jews in public while it took five years in germany, and also that despite being only 8% of the reich’s population, austrians comprised 1/3 of the ss men who ran the murder camps and were responsible for the deaths of over 40% of the Jewish men, women, and children murdered by the nazis. Will you explicitly acknowledge either of these facts, or will you simply keep saying ‘yes I already learned all about it, there’s nothing to talk about’?
It’s quite simple really. It shouldn’t be that hard for you to do….
———————-
yesus christ you don´t want to get it do you? you can repeat it again and again if you want. Ok a last time only for you. HELLO??? Nobody including myself has denied that this had happened. Yes Austrian did kill jews for gods sake. i know this! never denied it! Got it? so it took them only 5 days? Ok even if it would only have took them 5 seconds why should i especially care now in 2009. Sorry to tell you but i´m “only” 30 years old so i don´t feel guilty for something that happened long before i was born. All i tried was to hammer into your really ignorant brain that things have changed (which you just contine to ignore) since then. don´t get me wrong i will not have sleeples nights because it looks like it´s impossible to “teach” you a little dose of reality of live in Austria in 2009. Fact is like it or not the Nazi ideology has died out here long long ago. only because you don´t get it doesn´t change reality. you have a serious problem with this country don´t you? not that i really care that much but it really shines trough. btw. you do know that ww2 is over do you? i mean who freaking cares right now who stopped it (i do not) fact is i have been born in this country long long after the end of ww2. so excuse me that i feel not guilty for the holocaust. so now get over it and contine your life.
I agree with those who say that WWII is over and it is time for us Jews to get on with our lives.
But we need to comprehend why it was that Austria produced so many Nazis – and we need to understand why Nazism became such a racist philosophy. It helps to look at Austrian history. Österreich, the easten kingdom, protected Christendom against the savage heathen from the east. And they expanded eastwards always with this basic idea in mind. The “heathen” might have changed from being the Mongol to the Turk to finally being the Russian. But always the idea of protecting Christendom from the “heathen” was foremost in the national ethos. The second idea of Ösrerreich was to extend the German empire to the degree that it could be extended. Gradually as the threat of the “heathen” receded, the German aspect of Österreich got stronger and stronger. In the 1830′s Germans ruled over Poles, Slavs, Hungarians and Italians, running a common market in Central Europe and dominating land from Venezia to Prague; from Styria to Ruthenia. But they were always a minority in that empire. They sought to expand their influence west into the German states of Central Europe but faced competition from Prussia, which kept grabbing up more and more of the German states in the west.
The final showdown took place in 1866, when Prussian armies defeated the Austrian armies. The defeat of Austria meant that Berlin would be the center of German nationalism. Two events occurred the next year that would be critical to the way German Völkisch thought would develop over the next 50 years.
1. The Prussians organized the north German Confederation, consolidating their defeat of Austria, and providing the prototype for the German Empire four years later.
2. The Austrians recognized the Hungarians as equal partners in governing what to become known as Austria-Hungary.
In the North German Confederation, and later the German Empire, Germans were secure in being in the absolute majority. They did not need a racist philosophy to protect them from encroaching foreign influences in the Second Reich. In addition, the prosperity of the German Reich protected minorities from persecution to a degree. Fat cats do not need to hunt mice.
But the opposite was true in polyglot Austria-Hungary. Germans in Austria-Hungary were always being made aware of Hungarian demands for more and more autonomy. But in addition to this, Germans were a minority in the Austrian crown lands (except for the ones in the very west). Wherever the Austrian German looked there was the local nationalism trying to kick them out of authority. It mattered little whether it was in Galicia, Bohemia, Slovenia or the Italian speaking Alps. Always, somebody who outnumbered Germans was trying to use the democratic principle to muscle the Germans aside in the Empire they had built.
As if this wasn’t enough, Jews moved to Wien (Vienna), and put up all sorts of signs – in Yiddish! And the Germans looked on in horror. Their beautiful Wien was becoming – Judaized! If this kept on, Wien would be nothing more than a big smelly Jewish shtetl! Is it any wonder that judenhasse (Jew hatred) got translated into the Anti-Semite Party in Wien, where the first official Jew-haters were elected on the open ballot?
The racist concepts of Völkisch thought all developed in Austria where insecure Germans looked all around them and saw the uncivilized and barbaric foreigner aspiring to take over. The racism that was the staple of Nazism developed in insecure Austria – not in secure Germany. Only when Germany became as insecure as Austria was – in 1930 – did the Nazi concepts of racism make any real headway in Germany.
It is a mistake to think that the Völkisch thought that created Nazism was eradicated by World War II and “denazification”. It is still there, ready at any moment to attack the Jew. But now, there is another Semite to be attacked as well, the Moslem who refuses to integrate into German society. And there are a lot more of them than thersd are Jews. So, while Germans all across Europe may nod with approval when Moslems smash Jewish heads, they themselves are preparing to smash the Moslem heads.
Ruvy:
Wow thanks for showing this really very interessting point of view.
i will think about what you said.
you maybe right about jews. maybe it´s really because jews are no longer viewed as dirrect threat to our society. and btw. i guarantee you that jews fall down beyond the radar of austrian citizen. “they” live along “us” but are not viewed as an enemy. that is really the truth. they are viewed as austrian citizens first. no one cares if they are jewish or not they are austrians. but you are correct. the “standart” austrian hates muslims. people will not admit it in front of a camera but the reality is muslims are hated in Austria (so much for “integration” works). there exists nothing like integration here. (of course politicians don´t get tired telling everybody all is just fine) but this is not the truth. someone may think there is a contact between the different groups. but i guarantee you it´s not. fact is austria is a in generall very racist country. i don´t deny that.
austrians hate every one who is not willing to share “our” culture within this country. this is a fact. this does not mean that people have something against “forreigners” from other western countries. because they don´t. but if you don´t share our values you are in no way accepted nor tolerated here. no one cares what politics might say about this. people will hate you for this nor will they care how “we” can kick you out as long as you stay out! it´s no accident for example that austria would really leave the EU before they would accept turkey into it. this is granted!
greetings
Ruvy:
bu to say it clear. the industrial exermation of the jews was just damn wrong. there is no discussion about it. you don´t kill millions of people and then call your self civilized. this is out of discussion. it was a crime against humanity. there is no discussion about this.
Ruvy, that was well said.
It’s amazing how just sixty years after so readily ridding themselves of their Jews, austrians are now showing the same intolerance towards the newest minority group.
Foreigner thinks I’m supposed to be impressed that austrians no longer feel the overwhelming urge to destroy a Jew if they see one. That’s mainly because they did such a good job sixty years ago that they don’t have to worry about it. Now the Moslem has replaced the Jew in the austrian psyche.
This is probably the most racist country in ‘western’ europe.
gus:
oh contraire. you are taking your self way to important. i really don´t care if you are impressed or not. you allready showed thats it´s just a waste of time discussing with you.
“Yes Austrian did kill jews for gods sake.”
Does God know?
“Because i can because german is my mother tounge and i have not noticed any increase in anti semitism.”
Blah blah yabber yabber yack yack…
“Neo-conservatism is a term almost exclusively used by the enemies of America’s liberation of Iraq.”
Fair enough, but how would YOU describe Horowitz? A conservative he ain’t.
“yeah they are all NAZIS, it´s in their genes to hate and kill jews…”
I always thought that is a doubtful statement, but reading what you write here makes it seem probable.
Gus,
Do you think that stigmatising Austria with your definitive image of a nazy nation is “opening” perspectives for her to move on to a more tolerant democraty ?
Once upon a time, in 19th century and in the beginning of the 20th century, Ausria hosted a brillant intellectual elite, among them, painters, writers, architects, that definitly influenced the western thought.
Now, our moral duty is to help this nation (and all the implicated nations into nazysm) to express what she can do the best, introspection of human soul, in the most poetical and musical way, cuz the people there are accomplished aestheticians, that’s also may-be their rasor blade line of vertigo, depends of the external pressions, people may fall down in abysses or choose assomption.
Visconti movies describe quite well this atmosphere
marie claude, have you ever considered the correlation between the disappearance of austria’s ‘brilliant intellectual elite of the 19th and early 20th century and the disappearance of austria’s Jews?
Once the austrian volk got to run things, that ‘brilliant intellectual elite’ was made to scrub the streets with toothbrushes before being shot into the pits of Babi Yar by their fellow osterreichers.
They’re gone. They’re not coming back. Those whom the austrian volk did not manage to murder before the Allies put a stop to them were not welcome back into osterreich.
The austrians chose overwhelmingly to get rid of their rootless cosmopolitans and moved into their homes. And they’re not at all bothered by that choice now. You can’t replicate the ‘aesthetics’ of a destroyed culture by simply thinking nice thoughts for the destroyers and their descendants
Gus I see where you want to go, but not only Jews played a role in that “brillant” society :
Rainer Maria Rilke (emigrate to France)
Hermann Broch
Robert Musil (emigrate to France)
Kurt Gödel (mathematician) (emigrated to the US)
are as well known as :
Stephan Zweig
Wittgenstein (emigrated to UK)
Freud (emigrated to UK)
more contemporain, Peter Hanke (emigrated to France)
painters :
Kokoschka
Gustav Klimt
Egon Schiele
Architecture :
Otto Wagner initiated a new architecture conception that prevailed in 20th centuruy (one could say that Gaudi the famous Barcelona architect got his inspiration from the Vienne school too)
http://www.ecfs.org/bome//cities/HBand2004/Vienna/SKendall/Wagner.html
this listing isn’t complete, they are names that I remember
Actually, you don’t see where I want to go, you only see what you want to see. I mentioned the correlation of the destruction of vienna’s Jewish community with the city’s loss of its fin de siecle ‘intellectual elite’ status. Instead of acknowledging that correlation you simply came up with a list to show that not every single prominent viennese intellectual or artist was a Jew.
“I mentioned the correlation of the destruction of vienna’s Jewish community with the city’s loss of its fin de siecle ‘intellectual elite’” status.
the whole intellignetia was dismentled, the artists, writers, scientists weren’t pro-nazy, they escaped to UK,US before being trapped
I forgot to mention Friedrich Hayeck, the beloved economist of our fellows, gone to US too
Well, no disagreement there. If they weren’t murdered by willing germans and austrians, Vienna’s intellectuals fled and did not return. I don’t blame them.
Editrix:
You are well known as follower if not ideologue of a movement in germany, which is extremely racist and of fascist nature.
Whereas in the USA all people and religions can live together, YOU are fighting for a Muslim-free – and at last Jews-free Europe.
Your “Herrenreiter”-attitude is speaking for itself.
You don’t have the right to speak for Gemany: You would send everybody (Jews or Muslims) into the gas if it would serve your economic goals deliberately.
gus:
just a thought of mine. Could it “might” be that you just hate Austrians and Germans only because they have been born there? because all i can see is you pointing out how bad has this been and how bad has that been…. you are not interessted in having a discussion. All you do is to express your hate against “this” people.
Ruvy:
i have long thought about what you have written.
But i have to dissagree on several points you made. first austria (österreich) does not mean eastern kingdom. and more important you are wrong to think that “austrian” are what you call germans. well they are not. True austria and germany shares the same language (so does the swiss) but beside some years in WW2 Austria and germany is devided by more then 1000 years of different history and culture. Not that this is very much important in times of EU but this is a historical fact. another fact is that WW2 was mostly fought because of WW1. i really don´t know how jews got involved in this (maybe the new born tv propaganda machine just needed an common enemy?). really don´t know. i for myself really didn´t care and think too much of what has happened in WW2. Fact is it´s over. yeah bad things had happened but they have nothing to do with my current live. so history is history and life is life. so maybe someone will hate me because i´m over it. i don´t care but i think “we” should think about the problems in todays world and not what has happened more then 60 years ago when most of us have not even been born. this will not change history. true. but is has nothing to do with our current life. nor can we change history only because “we” may don´t like it.
greetings
BTW, I can’t help but feel that Ruvy’s statement that WW2 is over and it’s time for us Jews to get on with our lives was a reaction to my particular flavor of posting, and not indicative of an interest in forgetting all about the crimes of austria.
Indeed, in his very next post, after a chance to review austria’s history vis a vis its Jews he made a special post just to remind foreigner how sickening and disgraceful the history is. That’s what happens when you simply review what austria did to its Jews and how little they cared after the fact.
Anyway, I’m glad the world hasn’t decided to simply let austria off the hook. Sure, no austrian war criminal that I know of was ever sentenced for his crimes by the state of austria (unless foreigner wants to back up his claim that they did), but in recent years world pressure and disgust with austria has forced them to finally recognize their shameful secret to some extent.
Here is an excerpt from wiki:
In July 1991 the Austrian government recognized its role in the crimes of the third Reich during the Second World War. In 1993, the Austrian government reconstructed the Jewish synagogue in Innsbruck which was destroyed during Kristallnacht and in 1994 they reconstructed the Jewish library in Vienna which was then reopened.
Neo-Nazism and anti-Semitism did not vanish entirely from public life in Austria. In the 1990s many threat letters were sent to politicians and reporters, and some Austrian public figures have occasionally shown sympathy to Nazism.
Kurt Waldheim was appointed as the Austrian president in 1986 despite serving as an officer in the Wehrmacht during the Second World War. He remained the president of Austria until 1992. During his term he was considered a persona non grata in many countries.
The Austrian government was sued over Austria’s involvement in the Holocaust and required to compensate its Jewish survivors. Initially the government postponed the compensation matters, until the United States started putting pressure on the matter as well. In November 2005 the Austrian government sent out compensation letters to 19,300 Austrian Holocaust survivors.
Incredibly, it took them into the 1990s to make even the crudest of acknowledgments of their national crimes. But at least it’s something. It makes it that much harder for the next generation to deny or ignore this nation’s crimes. And of course, none of this would have happened without international pressure. So, it’s a good thing not everybody took Ruvy’s words literally fifteen and twenty years ago.
it’s a good thing not everybody took Ruvy’s words literally fifteen and twenty years ago.
After a time worshiping victimization (the real religion of most “liberal” American Jews) gets tiresome. Twenty years ago was not yet time to let go of the enemies’ pockets – nor was it yet time to move on from his evil. But now, it is barely worth the candle. Those who were teenagers fighing in WWII are in their 70′s and 80′s now. If Hitler had survived, he’d be 112 years old.
We cannot afford to forget these barbaric scum – their spiritual descendants use the same Sieg und Heil! salutes today in Arab countries and in Persia. We have no reason to forgive the. And speaking for myself, I have NO reason to ever set foot in the country of those who killed my father’s family in Poland. I will not so contaminate myself.
But we Jews can no longer afford to look at ouselves as victims or to expect any sympathy from an uncaring world. We are no longer victims, and it is our job to make sure that nobody ever makes us victims. This requires a much colder, and frankly, much more brutal approach to world affairs.
It’s not about grabbing pockets or making a calculated decision, as you have, that it’s more important to focus on Islamic antisemitism today. It’s simply about acknowledging the truth.
15 years ago was also well after the fact and the survivors and perpetrators were already well into old age. Actually, Hitler was born in 1889, so he would have turned 112 eight years ago, not today. The point is, establishing the truth is something that exists outside of politics. Austrians didn’t even acknowledge their true role in the Holocaust until the 1990s, and they still resist the truth. So do a lot of other european societies. Lithuania has yet to even reach the anemic level of acceptance that austrians have. This is a subject that exists entirely outside of whatever political realities color our personal lives, and with each passing year, there are more people studying the Holocaust, not less. This is a definitive event in european and western history, and as time goes on interest will not simply die off as the direct perpetrators and victims die off.
Gus,
You’re right about the math. But for all the people studying what happened in Europe 7 or 8 decades ago, I remind you of my final paragraph in the last comment – as it applies to us now – today. We Jews can no longer afford to look at ourselves as victims or to expect any sympathy from an uncaring world. We are no longer victims, and it is our job to make sure that nobody ever makes us victims again. This requires a much colder, and frankly, much more brutal approach to world affairs.
Rumors have it that Netanyahu will reshuffle the cabinet and appoint a far more “Obama-friendly” regime in the near future.
Such a government will not last. Netanyahu provokes confrontation (he doesn’t know any better) and if he provokes hard, enough actual war will break between Jews in Israel. Once Jews die shooting at each other, Netanyahu’s government of traitors and appeasers will lose its legitmacy in the eyes of too much of the public here to last. He will be brought down, and the traitors on the left will be brought down as well. The American puppets may find that it is better to run like dogs overseas than to stay and fight. I hope so, for their sakes. Otherwise, they will die like the dogs in the Securitate in Romania died in 1989-90.
And then you will see a very different attitude coming out of Jerusalem.
Sounds like the biggest danger to the Jewish people is people like you threatening to kill everyone who doesn’t agree with them. I hope for your sake the shin bet’s not reading this.
We can both look at europeans who so willingly murdered their Jews and now couldn’t care less about all that ‘ancient history’ of their parents’ time and draw the same conclusion that they quite simply aren’t worth believing or trusting with our future. But there is such a thing as taking it too far. You’ve crossed the line. You’re threatening civil war and domestic terrorism if you don’t get your way. We can learn more lessons from nazi countries like austria than the fact that they don’t care about Jews, we can also see what happens to a country when it loses respect for its democratic institutions. I would hate to see Israel end up like austria, which had to be occupied to save itself from itself.
foreigner wrote:
gus:
just a thought of mine. Could it “might” be that you just hate Austrians and Germans only because they have been born there? because all i can see is you pointing out how bad has this been and how bad has that been…. you are not interessted in having a discussion. All you do is to express your hate against “this” people.
—————–
I’m certainly no fan of austria’s history of antisemitism and particularly how it behaved from the time of the anschluss until now. Who could not be disgusted with this nation’s behavior?
But no, my lack of respect for you is not simply because you are born in austria, but because you have no integrity and display such sneering indiffernce towards austria’s destruction of european Jewry. You can’t even be bothered to care whether or not your grandparents or neighbors perpetrated war crimes.
You’re a liar. You first say that austrians did indeed convict fellow austrians for war crimes. I asked you for an example and you simply ignore your original claim. You delude yourself into believing that Simon Wiesenthal’s presence in austria was proof of how Jews are tolerated in this country of unrepentant nazis. When I point out that this is a lie, you simply pretend not to hear. You are resolute in your will to never discuss austria’s nazi past, yet you unthinkingly defend the election of a nazi like waldheim by saying ‘why can’t austrians elect who they want?” and ‘nothing was ever proven anyway.’
If you can’t respect the truth how can anyone respect you?
The last comment (#81) of “Heinz L. Mann” clearly violates rule #3 of the PJM guidelines above: it is strictly and obviously ad hominem. Moreover, it is not only ad hominem, but also wildly slanderous and I strongly suspect that it would be liable to prosecution as such under German law. In Germany, one does not so lightly go around accusing people of wanting to “send everybody (Jews or Muslims) into the gas.” “Heinz L. Mann” undoubtedly felt extremely brave and righteous doing so on a foreign site while hiding behind a pseudonym.
The suggestion that the Editrix is somehow anti-Semitic is beyond ludicrous. Anyone who cares to do so, can check out her blog for themselves: http://editrixblog.blogspot.com/. The blog is written in English. One would be hard-pressed to find a German blog that is more explicit about the dangers of anti-Semitism in Germany. The charge that the Editrix is “well known as follower if not ideologue of a movement in germany, which is extremely racist and of fascist nature” is presumably a reference to “Pro-Cologne,” the “citizens’ movement” that has famously made combating “islamisation” its battle cry. But, as it happens, the Editrix is a critic of “Pro-Cologne,” which she herself accuses of having at least definite affinities with racist and even anti-Semitic currents in Germany. This hardly qualifies her for being described as a “follower,” much less an “ideologue” of Pro-Cologne.
“Your “Herrenreiter”-attitude is speaking for itself.”
Well, I am relieved that even a pedestrian got the message.
“You don’t have the right to speak for Gemany…”
Where did I say I speak “for Germany”? Dumb, are you?
Dear Mr. Rosenthal, I have a hunch that we have an old friend of mine here. Everybody even remotely familiar with this particular branch of the blogosphere knows my blog and my real name. The use of the word “Herrenreiter” indicates both, that he is German and that he knows me and my blog. He is either too daft to understand what I write or deliberately slanderous. For both cases I have a very appropriate saying straight out of the Herrenreiter’s book: “What does it matter to a German Oak if a swine scrapes against it?”
However, thank you for your kind words. They are very much appreciated.