It’s foolish to expect a fair game from forces whose moral code is limited to “the end justifies the means.” That is why the implication that “all sovereignties are equal” is a loss for law-abiding democracies and a win for leftist expansionists, whose only measure of legitimacy is the advancement of their perverted idea of the “common good.” Successfully applied by the Soviet communists to bamboozle Western diplomats, it has now become a preferred con of every dictator in the business of advancing socialism, communism, fascism, Islamism, or any other cockamamie heresy of the archetypal collectivist tyranny.
And while Obama’s speech was also meant to cover the sovereignties of Ukraine and Georgia, it does nothing to protect these countries from Russia’s meddling, but gives the Russian leaders a chance to call Obama on his own word if in the future he raises an issue with their policies.
Abiding by his own declarations, Obama would never have gone into Iraq or Afghanistan, thus allowing both Saddam and the Taliban to violate the sovereignty of their own citizens and other countries, invading neighbors and training gangs of international terrorists. Today this approach practically gives assurances to the dictators of Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, and other rogue regimes that the United States will “respect their sovereignty” regardless of their propensity to support terrorism, develop nuclear weapons, and threaten to invade neighboring democracies.
But whose sovereignty is he really respecting? When a free democratic society protects the individual sovereignty of each member, the sovereignties of all citizens add up to the entire nation’s collective sovereignty. But in a dictatorship where individual sovereignty is non-existent, where no one is safe from the government’s arbitrary powers, collective sovereignty adds up to exactly nothing. The only sovereignty Obama’s approach protects is that of the tyrant, who is the single sovereign individual in the entire nation.
The 2003 U.S.-led invasion didn’t violate the sovereignty of the Iraqi citizens because it is impossible to violate that which doesn’t exist. It only violated the sovereignty of Saddam Hussein and his two sons, Uday and Qusay — and deservedly so. Even Saddam’s closest henchmen had no personal sovereignty and lived in constant fear of his whims, just like Stalin’s henchmen before them.
Likewise, it would be impossible for America to “steal the Iraqi oil” because it had been long ago stolen by Saddam, who treated it as his personal asset and used the proceeds to build palaces, finance terrorism, develop weapons, bribe foreign leaders, corrupt the UN, and do other things that had nothing to do with the interests of the Iraqis.
But with America’s help, the Iraqi people have now regained both their oil and their sovereignty. And this time, their national sovereignty is absolutely legitimate because it is comprised of the sovereignties of millions of free individuals, who elect their government and are protected by law from its arbitrary dictate. And while their democracy is far from perfect, the Iraqis already are a world apart from the lawlessness of Saddam’s national-socialist regime.
In contrast, the ousting of President Manuel Zelaya, whose goal was to impose a dictatorship on Honduras, was done precisely to protect the individual sovereignties of all Hondurans. An attempt to return him to power as once advocated by Mr. Obama would, in fact, violate the sovereignty of every Honduran, who would lose personal liberties as a result of Zelaya’s leftist policies.
In the end, national sovereignty cannot be unconditional. Its condition is simple: the presence of an elected government that acts in the interests of its people, maintains the rule of law, and respects individual sovereignty of every one of its citizens.
This approach eliminates the false premise of moral equivalency and makes painfully clear that the right course of action with regards to Iran and the right course of action with regards to Honduras should be the exact opposites of what President Obama has chosen.






Dear Oleg,
Please consider weighing in on this matter as an aspect of totalitarian disinformation and disruption!
*****
TO REASONABLE READERS HERE: PLEASE SENT PJM A NOTE UNDER “contact us” ON THEIR HOME PAGE…something like this -
Do you want THOUGHTFUL (and sometimes a little fun) banter and intelligent DISCUSSION on your site, or do you wish to lose participants/visitors?
You seem to confuse you INDIFFERENCE with “freedom of speech.”
Your PROFOUND INACTION allows a couple of morons to FUNDAMENTALLY DISRUPT decent discussions. This is NEGLIGENCE ON YOUR PART, *N*O*T* “live and let live” in action.
By the way, aside from the “shit in pants” post from “moho” which you DID remove, there were other “circle jerk” remarks made in response to my thread-posts about disruptive trolls.
Why do *I* have to bring this to your attention?! I am NOT going to be your Ombudsman…it’s YOUR website.
WHEN YOU DO LITTLE TO NOTHING AGAINST *T*H*E*M*, YOU DO GREAT HARM TO *U*S*…AND, IN THE END, TO YOURSELVES.
BAN EACH OF THE DAMNED TROLLS AND BE MORE ACTIVE IN WEEDING THEM OUT REGULARLY…lest your site become a haven for Astroturfed trolls only!
trolls use democrtaic process to undermine democracy. (I could have said liberals or progessives or MARXIST in place of the word troll)
this piece will probably soon suffer an infestation of them. please it is in everyones intrest not to feed them.
here is a short video clip …it highlights how marxism has been using education to spread their ideology in north america
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related
it is all in this short clip ..why trolls keep using the same arguments regardless of what they are shown.
excellent artical.
still I am of the thinking that Obama is well aware of his words and their implications. I think he is letting the world know he is a MARXIST and is fully committed to taking the USA down the socialist path.
Obama’s manipulations and outright mis-truths are indicators that he will do everything possible to push the marxist agenda.
the current debate (it should not be called a debate because from what I have seen the democrats just dicate what they intend to do at town halls …the republicans have been not allowed to debate in congress by use of proceedural rules)
the MSM has been abetting the president in his goals by one sided news coverage and by pushing mis-truth of the administration as well as creating their own mis-truths, (feel free to put lies in where I have used mis-truths)
..the tea parties and now the repudiation of the health care reform and of the obama policies show that a very large percentage of the population are against these policies.
…but this does not deter the elitist and socialist from attaching those who disagree and the MSM is generally a socialist elitist group.
I wish the free world the best …Good Luck to Honduras and Georgia and those who struggle against the socialism of the communists and the Obama administration.
Oleg, I love your stuff. The “Saddam stole the oil” line is brilliant in its piercing simplicity. I’ve been arguing this stuff for 7 years now and I’d never thought to say that. I tip my hat to you sir.
1. Oleg
I hope your note bears some fruit. I tried last week with a blunt but courteous e-mail to PJM and got no response.
I know I’m not the smoothest communicator myself but as a conservative, I made the decision some months back to “jump into the fray” to try to improve my ability to defend my positions and simply take a stand.
I’ve made mistakes in attitude and phrasing and had my head handed to me a couple of times, but thought it was worth it (and a good challenge) to participate.
But the trolls have made the comments threads almost useless to conservatives for conversation. It almost seems like this actually isn’t a conservative site, but that the articles are conservative in tone to draw us into conversation and political expression for the purpose of being mocked, attacked and vilified.
I’ve stopped almost all posting because of the situation. I will no longer recommend PJM to my conservative friends. My friends and acquaintances do not use profanity and personal attacks as primary methods of communication and I see no reason to invite them into a situation where those are becoming the norms.
my post was intended to address Ed Wallis, of course, in his post #1 (instead of Oleg)
Would the trolls remind me as to what do birds of a feather do?
Meryl …that is the hope of the trolls ..to get people not to comment …not to read the pieces (they don’t, they see the word obama in a piece and go after it and the commenters if they have conservative views)
as for being handed your head …it maybe that the trolls are doing the same thing their leader is doing. basically lying. his are not misquotes or stretching of the truth. they are lies …plain and simple. all part of the marxist playbook.
“In the end, national sovereignty cannot be unconditional. Its condition is simple: the presence of an elected government that acts in the interests of its people, maintains the rule of law, and respects individual sovereignty of every one of its citizens.”O.A.
This is a stunning paragraph. The author wishes to help define international borders and conflicts. I can not help to be reminded that our own southern border policy has yet to be defined after decades of political indecision,ploy, and play.
As for the troll policy, perhaps some brilliant author would open a subject line exclusively to that issue. I like to read differences of opinion, yet I notice, regretfully, that there is no border policy for what easily deteriorates into anarchy of comment.
“In the end, national sovereignty cannot be unconditional. Its condition is simple: the presence of an elected government that acts in the interests of its people, maintains the rule of law, and respects individual sovereignty of every one of its citizens.”
Of course, we’ll pick and choose what nations fit this criterion. Saudi Arabia gets a pass because we need its oil … Egypt gets a pass because the Moslem Brotherhood is waiting in the wings to replace Mubarak … China gets a pass because alienating it might bring down our economy (and, more important, Walmart’s) …
But that’s only my opinion. I guess, like most of the posts on Pajamas M, it’ll be a debate between the trolls and the a-holes.
The only sovereignty Obama’s approach protects is that of the tyrant, who is the single sovereign individual in the entire nation…the right course of action with regards to Iran and the right course of action with regards to Honduras should be the exact opposites of what President Obama has chosen.
Given Obama’s psychological makeup & background, you might conclude that he has some affinity (envy, even) for the absolutism of a Putin, for the guy he refers to as “supreme leader” in Iran, for the Saudi king, for Zelaya trying to change the Constitution so he can be president for life, for Chavez having successfully changed Venezuela’s Constitution (after multiple tries) & who is now able to run for President indefinitely…
…their perverted idea of the “common good.” Successfully applied by the Soviet communists to bamboozle Western diplomats, it has now become a preferred con of every dictator in the business of advancing socialism, communism, fascism, Islamism, or any other cockamamie heresy of the archetypal collectivist tyranny.
Are we not currently dealing with a US President who wishes to impose his own, personal notion of the “common good” ?
Obama refers to the liberties enshrined in the first 10 amendments as “negative” rights. He seems to regard our Constitution and its limits placed on the federal government & how the government can (and cannot) infringe on individual liberty…as impediments to his personal vision of what America should look like (his ideal vision seems to be all government, all the time, the citizen under the thumb of government in all aspects…)
From VDH:
“So we are experiencing a catharsis of sort. And, let us pray, for the next thirty years we will learn that if a candidate has no executive experience, had a history of eliminating his senatorial rivals through leaked divorce records, was the most partisan of some 100 Senators in his brief two-year tenure, had a disturbing affinity for radical anti-Americans like Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers, then he really was ruthless, largely inexperienced, and not at all convinced that America has ever been an exceptional nation.”
More revealing hypocrisy from you constitution thumping fools please. Just where in the constitution does it require my President to opine on, much less do anything about, the internal matters of other countries?
5. Meryl – Very thoughtful.
I disagree with several of the posters regarding “trolls”.
I would also say that the use of the word troll is somewhat akin to using the word, say, teabagging. Somewhat… Somewhat. I believe that an explanation of my thinking on this matter will go nowhere as we all have levels of tolerance that differ. I’ll leave it at that.
I agree that some of the comments made are not what one might call productive in the sense that they do not further the conversation in a rational fashion. But the mind is not always rational. Allowing non-rationality to be expressed can provide valuable input to those observing it, and sometimes to those expressing it. You find out what you don’t want to be or do, and in that thought process you do examine your own positions, and one way or the other, for better or worse, there is growth. Again, it is as important to know who you don’t want to be, as it is to know who you want to be. That “other” (from one’s personal perspective) is not going away regardless of your desires; it is fundamental to political discourse, and fundamental to the human condition. It can and will get nasty at times.
I’m not proposing negating the concept of right and wrong, reality is objective, something cannot be right and wrong at the same time. I do think that suppressing information is usually not a good thing. The nuances can be debated – is it information, is it blowing off stream, is it a personal demon or positive input, is it whimsical, purposefully derogatory. I prefer to make those decisions myself, if possible.
I respect the decisions of the moderators. This is in a very real sense the their property, but I do recognize that posters will not agree as to what comments should be posted. That’s valid. Disagreement can be instructive.
By and large, I think that the PJM moderators do a good job considering the challenges presented.
It would be interesting to see what the moderators reject, would it not?
This is also the fatal flaw with the UN. They treat all sovereigns as equal and interchangeable, regardless of whether or not the have any credible process that gives the respective public control over the government. The general assembly is a world senate; one sovereign, one vote. No wonder it’s dominated by a gang of dictators.
It’s interesting, to continue the parallel, that the Demos love the UN, and don’t see a problem with sitting dictators down with equal standing with elected representatives, and it was McCain and Giuliani who were advocating hope and change in the form of a union of democracies.
Then look at the sneering attitude that so many donkeys have toward their constituents at these town hall meetings. Draw your own conclusions.
Dissent has come as a shock to this President, who, along with the leaders of the House & Senate, are predictably sounding the bell of going it alone (translation: screw this massive unrest, we’ll shove this healthcare takeover through without them)
from Ace of Spades:
“Ponder this: Obama has finally discovered that there are some people who can’t be negotiated with, who agree to “discussions” chiefly as a delaying tactic using the purloined time to advance their own agenda, who are inflexible as to their own purpose and who therefore aren’t worth talking with further. And so unilateral action is called for.”
“These people, it turns out, aren’t the Iranian Mullahs, but the Republican fellow citizens of his own country.”
So Moho you do support dictators everywhere then.
While we don’t have the treasure to rescue people under tyranny (with the deficit raised 4 fold in 6 months to greater than all deficits of all the presidents before Obama, combined) American doesn’t need to respect their government or deal with them in any positive way.
That is why the United Nations is a useless organization because the majority of countries are in fact if not in name dictatorships. That is the great tragedy of this age. The very idea of a world government created today would just mean a world wide dictatorship. That is why American sovereignty is the prime obligation of our government.
Just where in the constitution does it require my President to opine on, much less do anything about, the internal matters of other countries?
That’s a great question, Mojo. Glad you raised it! That means that the incompetent in the White House is not going to unveil a new Middle East peace plan next month? Are they going to stop the pressure on Israel not to build communities in Judea and Samaria?
When is that fraud going to clap his mouth shut on internal affairs in this country – the way he has clapped his mouth shut on internal affairs in Iran?
Frankly, what we in Israel need is for your American “leaders” to shut the hell up and butt out of our lives here. We can handle the Arabs and Persians on our own, thank you – without your help.
Yankee, go home! And stay home!
This short video cuts to the chase of “end justifies the means” thinking and will save you hours and hours trying to parse the subterfuge and obfuscation coming over the airwaves.
Rahm Emanuel: The objective is what’s important, it’s not the means
Moho and Michael, I agree that the USA should not meddle in the affairs of other countries…that includes statements made by our President. We have a Department of DEFENSE not Offense and the line has been blurred. When does it cease to be defense and becomes an offense?
The USA should pull out of the UN. We don’t have any use for them and they use us!
Obama only endorses “hands off” when it comes to countries he agrees with.
None of our so called liberals in America seems able to understand that Israel’s enemies to the west & north are dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state, it doesn’t really make a difference what is offered in the way of concessions.
Re-starting the peace initiative almost seems laughable. I watched American presidents get hoodwinked by the likes of Arafat for a very long time.
I’ve also written that Israel would be best off (to the extent possible) to simply tell the US to go pound sand. And that citizens in Iran getting beaten up and brutalized, subject to the oppression of an illegitimate government, shouldn’t count on us, either.
I’d guess that Barack Obama is mightily frustrated that recent events in Iran have seriously thrown a wrench into his pipe dream of schmoozing with Arachnid-jihad.
(over & out)
“Department of Defense” was a euphemism adopted following World War 1 for all prior Departments of War consistent with the general abhorrence of war that conflict inspired. Actually what its name implies was actually enacted in the subsequent decades: on the eve of World War 2, for example, the USA had total armed forces of 250,000 in a nation of about 150 million.
Following World War 2, the notion of War-as-Defense was also consistent with the goals and behavior of the non-Communist bloc vis a viz Communism: Soviet Russia and its proxies were the aggressors, and America provided the bulwark of defense. The Western Empires were declining; Britain and France had been radically reduced in their foreign possession by the early 1960s, and England gave up in India in 1947. What strength they retained outside their borders was pretty nominal; inside, their position was guaranteed by a few thermonuclear warheads. That present architecture remains because it served a longstanding need, the wisdom and justice of which you only need to talk to a refugee from Soviet Russia or its satellites to appreciate.
The reason it blurs into – or seems like outright – “offense” is (1) because of the well-meaning of liberals, (2) the duplicity of socialists and Communist intelligence officers and their agents, and (3) the fact that most educated people are in fact more “credentialled” than educated.
I prefer to view the trolls as decent people who are badly and manipulatively educated. I believe they would understand reality if they were standing in a gulag for having made fun of Dmitry Ustinov. I just those outside the gulags don’t seem to be able to believe that they exist. That’s what Oleg is trying to change. It’s really far beyond time that it does change. So just ignore the trolls, really. Since you’re just sitting at our computer, they’re just figments of your imagination anyway.
why is anyone surprised at what Obama does and says?
I enjoy different points of view. It helps us understand what is really going on in our world.
However , why be surprised by the trolls and their screaming and jumping up and down? they are a big fish in a little pond here. Makes ‘em feel important. At the other sites they are just one of the guys!!, “little” fish…they issue thoughts out of their toilet like spittle. They might actually have a point in some of their posts, but i now pass them over. Too much b.s.
Dan …I agree with much of what you said but the trolls are a little more dangerous then you indicate.
It doesn’t matter if they will be your jailer in the gulag, they maybe the one who informed on or made up a story that gets you sent to the gulag. ..
agreed they don’t get it until they end up in the gulag and they most often do, but even then they think it is a mistake in the system. “their perfect world”
they are dangerous even if they are unaware of the danger they pose.
simple test ….
….if they weren’t dangerous then these articals would not be written.
“So Moho you do support dictators everywhere then.”
As much as i support you. Meaning I don’t care what you do. You idiots put us trillions into debt to turn Iraq into an inferno and we have nothing to show for it. Nice work.
nicely put GRACIE
trolls use democrtaic process to undermine democracy. (I could have said liberals or progessives or MARXIST in place of the word troll)
this piece will probably soon suffer an infestation of them since the obama has been INVOKED. please it is in everyones intrest not to feed them.
here is a short video clip …it highlights how marxism has been using education to spread their ideology in north america
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related
it is all in this short clip ..why trolls keep using the same arguments regardless of what they are shown.
24. Moho: “You idiots put us trillions into debt to turn Iraq into an inferno and we have nothing to show for it. Nice work.”
B-b-but Saddam was connected to al Qaeda! And even though there were no WMDs, Saddam was going to whip up a nuke in like 2 seconds and fire it at America if we didn’t invade! FOX News told me so!
Those Iraqis are just frakkin’ ungrateful. We spent all that money bombing them back to the stone age so we could give them Democracy! And they don’t even thank us!
TO THE NON-TROLLS:
please stop feeding the trolls paying attention to them.
Just ignore them.
The trolls shouldn’t be banned either, because they are an excellent example of what “totalitarian” means:
the commies have an absolute control of the papers, the TVs, the universities, the schools,and the televisions spit images of the Supreme Leader ALL the time, in the worst soviet style imaginable…and STILL the trolls are unhappy because here dissenting opinions can still be expressed.
That’s a totalitarian.
SECOND POINT:
their arguments are so silly that we actually need them, so we can be sure that larger and larger numbers of Americans WILL BE nauseated by the communists’ arguments.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
It wasn’t just Fox news that told you that #28, try CNN, MSNBC etcetcetc…
#26…the video only reenforces what Norman Thomas said about socialism.
the trolls here and world wide, would be the guys that guarded the Jews at the camps. Then when called on it years later…cried they were “made to do it”…
besides – trolls, liberals, Leninists: none of them is interested in knowing anything. what 6 year old doesn’t know it’s bad not be nice to someone? this is moral insight? obviously not. nor do they really enjoy knowing something – they just declare “WE ARE THE ONES WHO KNOW SOMETHING: YES WE YES DO YES WE DO YES WE DO SHUT UP SHUT UP HAHAHAHAHAHA.” it’s retarded. what they like is the rush of self-importance. they’re just arrested little egotists. that’s it. much more interesting to learn about the actual saddam and his country’s actual place in geopolitics rather than be satsified with shouting “NO BLOOD FOR OIL” or “WHERE’S THE WMD!? HUH HUH!?” for the millionth time and listening to people like David Corn. *shudder* no thanks. it doesn’t matter how popular it is, it’s just not cool enough for me yo.
Nations BETRAY ANTI-COMMUNIST Honduras & Jewish Israel
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
US turns up pressure on Honduras coup government
By MARK STEVENSON (AP) – July 20, 2009
TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called interim President Roberto Micheletti to say there would be serious consequences if his government ignores international mediation for Zelaya’s return.
Honduran business leaders, meanwhile, say U.S. Ambassador Hugo Llorens has called them into meetings to warn that Honduras — impoverished and highly dependent on exports to the United States — could face tough sanctions if the interim government continues to refuse Arias’ compromise proposal for Zelaya to return as head of a coalition government.
The European Union added to the pressure on Monday by announcing it was suspending $93.1 million (65.5 million euros) in aid to Honduras.
The United Nations and Organization of American States have called for the return of Zelaya, who was arrested and hustled out of the country by the army on June 28.
But Micheletti vowed not to stand down — and implied that the United States is betraying one of its staunchest allies. Honduras allowed its territory to be used as a staging area for U.S.-backed Contra rebels in Nicaragua during the 1980s, and more recently it sent troops to Iraq.
One learns in life that people who seem to be friends are not really friends.
Zelaya has aligned himself with leftist Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.
Adolfo Facusse, the head of Honduras’ National Association of Industries, was defiant:
“We prefer sanctions to Zelaya’s return,” which he said would bring the “loss of liberty, dictatorship, communism.”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jAkMGKIUDg_ngUiZboxQbYj5_DPwD99ICUP80
Honduras PUNISHED for Being ANTI-COMMUNIST. Israel PUNISHED for Being JEWISH
It is ominous that the U.S. and the nations, condemn and punish the freedom-loving people of Honduras for refusing to accept communism. Honduras, NEVER give up the fight for freedom!
Is this hostile act against tiny, courageous Honduras a prelude of what is planned for America and the nations? Is it planned that America and the nations will become communist?
GLOBAL JIHAD’S BIGGEST VICTORY – US/EU teamed up with Islamic nations – demand vulnerable little Israel surrender half her Holy Land to Muslims bent on Jewish genocide-70% of PA Muslims support savage suicide bombings of Jewish innocents.
The Free World is in a fight for her survival! Israel, stand strong! NEVER give up the fight for freedom! NEVER surrender to the global jihad onslaught! Not one inch of Land to barbaric, implacable enemies!
NEVER agree to vicious and evil ethnic Jew cleansing!
Obama’s Civilian National Security Force
Obama promised change. The End of America as we know it:
Obama: “We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwaAVJITx1Y
PRAVDA: America’s Descent into Marxism: Brief video http://www.solutionsfromscience.com/
Another victory for Freedom:
Honduras: Military Is Accused of Abuses
By MARC LACEY
Published: August 18, 2009
Amnesty International, in a report to be released Wednesday, accuses the Honduran military and police of using beatings and mass arrests to punish protesters for opposing the ouster of President Manuel Zelaya in June. “Mass arbitrary arrests and ill treatment of protesters are a serious and growing concern in Honduras today,” Esther Major, Amnesty’s Central American researcher, said in a statement. The government of Roberto Micheletti, the country’s de facto leader, accuses demonstrators of engaging in violent acts and provoking the authorities.
And, of course, Amnesty also condemns the regime’s actions in Iran. I see references to this figure all of the time in conservative blogs and commentary:
Amnesty International lists Iran as the world’s second most prolific executioner in 2008, after China. The human rights group says at least 346 people were executed last year in the country.
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/02/july-2-latest-updates-on-irans-post-election-turmoil/?scp=2&sq=iran%20amnesty%20international&st=cse
Face it. You people pick and choose your pearl-clutching outrage depending on what the Democrats are doing–or, to be more exact, what your leaders think they can get away with accusing Democrats of doing. And, of couse, what you are so easily convinced that they are doing. Suckers.
I’m trying to remember where I read it. Israel and
Taiwan were the only countries to support Zelaya being woken up, and then flown out of the Honduras.
For doing so, the likes of Hugo Chavez are going ape.
Well, it just goes to show that no good deed ever goes unpunished.
Retired high school teacher–I learned early on to avoid giving troublemakers the attention they craved. I dealt with them alone, not in front of the class. In this case, I agree with posters who say, “Ignore the trolls.”
They will probably go away if people do not respond to them, or, at the least, and maybe better, feel immensely frustrated they are not mucking up the comments section here.
“…the presence of an elected government that acts in the interests of its people, maintains the rule of law, and respects individual sovereignty of every one of its citizens.”
Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean… perhaps if you show me.”
Trust and respect are certainly not one way streets- which they seem to be learning as they approach their dead end.
Ah, so Moho you don’t care what dictators do to their own people. Not our problem. What do we get out of it?
The well known big heartedness of liberals.
On another front I wonder what would have happened in Honduras after Zelaya had make himself president for life. That’s all the world needs is another mini Chavez. Any word on when Chavez will start his war with Columbia to try and prop up his fading popularity at home? What is a dictator to do? I mean when represion at home stops working one must look elsewhere.
Moho supports racially-inspired beatings of black men.
@24
“You idiots put us trillions into debt to turn Iraq into an inferno and we have nothing to show for it.”
Proof, please.
@27
“B-b-but Saddam was connected to al Qaeda! And even though there were no WMDs, Saddam was going to whip up a nuke in like 2 seconds and fire it at America if we didn’t invade! FOX News told me so!”
Link, please.
Sagman44″:
I have news for you, this site will also go away if you ignore us. The only thing keeping the hits up is your floundering responses to our criticisms. There just aren’t enough of you to keep up the charade that this is anywhere close to a popular movement.
Trolls serve several purposes or functions; they contribute to the number of comments for a numbers total that helps bring higher advertising revenue, they disrupt the focus and exchange of ideas, and they make a semi-intellectual political commentary adjust its attention to them and their juvenile and witless arguments.
Every time we respond to a taunt, they are encouraged and have an open invitation to answer with more nonsensical gibberish. You invite them to present their stale Progressive Socialist talking points over and over. Personally, I find them to be insufferable boors and at a certain point it becomes obvious that the commentary is no longer worth the effort to follow if it stuffed with inane Leftist drivel from the Marxist Urinal.
It is worth the effort to engage an enemy that has a portion of cerebral function, but these Trolls are unarmed in a battle of wits. Engaging them on an intellectual forum diminishes your abilities by bringing you down to their level. We need to contribute in a manner that produces ideas and sharpens our skills, dealing with imbeciles is like a debate in an insane asylum, totally useless.
It is sad, but I am sure the senseless banter on these pages convince many to read the articles and skip the commentary. Thus the Troll’s goal has been accomplished and we lose the benefit of enlightening ideas that are often more insightful than the original article.
26. G. Soros:
trolls use democrtaic process to undermine democracy. (I could have said liberals or progessives or MARXIST in place of the word troll)
this piece will probably soon suffer an infestation of them since the obama has been INVOKED. please it is in everyones intrest not to feed them.
here is a short video clip …it highlights how marxism has been using education to spread their ideology in north america
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related
it is all in this short clip ..why trolls keep using the same arguments regardless of what they are shown.
Great link Great video …thanks for posting. Regards
26. G. Soros:
trolls use democrtaic process to undermine democracy. (I could have said liberals or progessives or MARXIST in place of the word troll)
this piece will probably soon suffer an infestation of them since the obama has been INVOKED. please it is in everyones intrest not to feed them.
here is a short video clip …it highlights how marxism has been using education to spread their ideology in north america
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related
it is all in this short clip ..why trolls keep using the same arguments regardless of what they are shown.
ditto …good post
We need some levity!!!…WHERE IS Joe Biden when we NEED him!!!???
and they make a semi-intellectual political commentary adjust its attention to them and their juvenile and witless arguments.
You were doing really well until you got to that part. I can’t stop laughing about that.
In any case:
It is sad, but I am sure the senseless banter on these pages convince many to read the articles and skip the commentary.
They would be better off reading the commentary. I point out fallacies and mendacity in these articles on a regular basis. That’s why you want to urge people to reject the comments section; its just easy for someone with an open-mind to lay this crap bare. And there’s nothing you can do to stop it but whine.
Sure, there is something we can do…we can skip your posts. You don’t “lay this crap bare”…you yell and have fits like a little kid. You can’t discuss, you’re nothing short of a cyber bully. Whining is not my bag. I think you hide behind the computer words. You were the kid in school that was bullied, got your face flushed in the toilet and stuff. Now all you can do is be the bully on the board. You’re always here, nothing else goin’ on in your pathetic life.
You should put your theory in #41 to the test.
I’ve been reading articles and commentary for awhile on here, and I’ve just come to a conclusion. Most (not all) of the clever negative “progressive” commentary on here is essentially meaningless. An article is written, and the commenter accuses the writer of the article of hypocrisy. He (or she, I suppose) then makes a point that’s usually applicable to both sides, and simply acts as if it’s not applicable to theirs, ignores people who point this out, and continues to snipe at the writer and other, opposing commenters, without really making any serious points. It appears to be just for the entertainment value. There’s usually a smug “I’m so much smarter than you” aspect to the comments…after all, they voted for Obama, and he’s obviously much smarter than Bush, having found seven whole states in which to campaign, when the idiot Bush didn’t even know they existed.
So here we have moho accusing the Republicans of hypocrisy because, as I understand it, he thinks we shouldn’t be meddling in the affairs of other countries. Fair enough; in abstract, it’s a viable argument. In the real world, however, he has to explain why we’d be better off now, with the Taliban running things in Afghanistan (remember, that’s meddling too) and Saddam still in charge in Iraq. No cheating, and coming up with some not-even-sort-of-believable fantasy about Al Gore convincing Saddam to flee into exile peacefully, like I read some years ago, in a blog concocted by some other liberal fantasist. Real, serious thought should be put into this: explain how we’d be better off. Never mind the people in those countries; I know you don’t care about them…or are you going to try to argue that a dictator is better than a democracy, in a 3rd world country?
The other part of this, which you haven’t addressed, is the point that if Obama is going to keep his nose out of the rest of the world’s affairs, what’s he doing sticking it into the internal politics of Honduras? If he isn’t obligated to speak about Iran’s rigged election, and this gives him a pass so that he doesn’t have to condemn it, that’s fine…but why then is he speaking up when Honduras comes up? Remember to ignore the fact that Honduran authorities discovered computers which contained, on their hard drives, the results of the referendum Zelaya was going to hold in September on whether he should be allowed to perpetuate his rule indefinitely. And more importantly (and interestingly for me) will be your attempt to twist Conservative support for a *real* election in Iran (one where they count all the votes) and for Hondurans to use their constitution and courts to enforce their laws when the President tries to violate them…but of course when (as you believe, I’m sure; I don’t, but never mind) American conservatives rig an election, well *THAT’S* evil beyond belief!
So let me get this straight: Iranian mullahs rig election: GOOD Honduran dictator-wannabe rigs election (before it’s even held): GOOD Conservatives are wrongly accused of rigging an election: Off with their heads!
Have I got that right?
DavidN …you got it right .
great post
DavidN
There’s usually a smug “I’m so much smarter than you” aspect to the comments…after all, they voted for Obama, and he’s obviously much smarter than Bush, having found seven whole states in which to campaign, when the idiot Bush didn’t even know they existed.
This is totally asinine. You don’t even know which side I’m on, or who I voted for. What a ridiculous and cowardly defense for warmongering.
MR ATBASHIAN;Obama is merely showing professional courtesy to fellow marxoid tyrants.
MOJON#50..”You don’t know which side I’m on”? Are you kidding?It’s as obvious Obama’s intellectual and speech limitations.Tell the libtard troll who writes your posts,that he just won the PRAVDA prize for disingenuousnes.BTW: see above.
Moho, I am sorry but “I point out fallacies and mendacity in these articles on a regular basis.” just doesn’t work for me. All I see is your agenda driven attacks on anything that Obama hasn’t approved. I would have a better opinion if I ever saw a comment from you that I couldn’t
Part II. …see before you write it. It is also very obviouse that if a conservative said anything close to what you claim is the only possible opinion that you would find a way to call him an conservative Bush loving idiot.
DavidN
There’s usually a smug “I’m so much smarter than you” aspect to the comments…after all, they voted for Obama, and he’s obviously much smarter than Bush, having found seven whole states in which to campaign, when the idiot Bush didn’t even know they existed.
This is totally asinine. You don’t even know which side I’m on, or who I voted for. What a ridiculous and cowardly defense for warmongering.
I’m sorry, I assumed you voted for Obama. I seriously doubt you were “dumb” enough to vote for McCain and the hated Palin. Perhaps you voted for Bob Barr? I think not. Maybe Cynthia McKinney (didn’t she run on the Green, or Communist, platform? I can’t remember).
Nevertheless, there’s a larger point to be made here. You avoided virtually all the points I made, and concentrated on one small portion of what I posted, accusing me of cowardice (?!?!) for assuming you voted for Obama. Get back to my point rather than sniping and cherry-picking.
All I see is your agenda driven attacks on anything that Obama hasn’t approved.
Okay, you claim to know my agenda. If that’s not bullshit, let’s hear what my agenda is. This should be good. Come on, now, I’m challenging you to live up to your statements. What’s my agenda?
I’ve been on PJM for almost a year. I voted Repulican in the last election because I thought Obama was an idiot! I was/am right. I am a Libertarian who leans hard to the right. I believe in Fiscal Responsibility and am a Social Liberal, not in the sense the Liberals of today are. I work for the Department of Defense and believe in our constitution that the federal government should provide for our defense and promote our general welfare. PROMOTE IT not GIVE IT!! I hope you aren’t calling me a troll because of my post agreeing with Moho. Will someone please show me where in the Constitution of United States we are to go to other countries and push our ideas onto them. Will someone please show me where in our Constitution it is written that we are the policemen of the world. Republicans and Democrats are both guilty and it’s funny to watch the liberals on here point their finger at the right. You would think that Iraq was the first place we ever butted in on! And if the Liberals are so against the wars in the ME why don’t they get off of their little GREEN kick and let us drill in the US!! And whats with the Patriot Act? Wasn’t Obama going to get rid of that? He’s Bush on steriods!!
Ms Attitude. In fact, we probably have very little in common politically. What they don’t like here is people who highlight the inconsistencies in the philosophies espoused here. Free market, except for defense contractors. No taxes, unless its to fund a war that makes those defense contractors rich. It really is a moot point to argue the health care issue with them. Its not a case of big spending vs. small government. Its a case of an incoherent set of beliefs based largely on innuendo and rumor against Obama’s policies. In such an argument, it really doesn’t matter what Obama’s policies are. They will argue that Obama should invade Iran one day for not recognizing a popular uprising against the government, and that Obama should keep quiet on a Honduran military coup.
Moho: The one thing that needs to be realized is that different people with different opinions post on here. For the most part they are all over the spectrum of the right. Therefore you will have one person stating that we should be involved deeply in foriegn policy and another who states that we shouldn’t. Sometimes, with reason and explanation a person will change their minds. It appears that you have a set belief in how the right views politics and you are wrong. Most of the posts I see on here have facts backing their statements and some are based on experience while others are based on feelings. I believe that most of the Democrat Parties beliefs are based on feelings, on the feeling that Americans are owed certain things by the government when in reality the government owes us nothing but to provide for the common defense and provide for the ability to succeed or fail.
Ms. Attitude: I respectfully submit that this board doesn’t tolerate alternate opinions. While I don’t read all of the comments, I can tell you that the articles themselves are poorly researched–to the point where one has to consider mendacity as the only rationale that makes any sense.
Moho: That’s now I feel about MSNBC, so I don’t watch it.
One last question, Moho. How come the left is no longer against the Iraq war? How come they are no longer raising Cain about the Patriot Act? How come they are no longer complaining about “welfare” to corporations? Weren’t these the reasons they hated the right? Did they stop all the noise because the left owns them now? Why is it about left v. right? Why did the left stop fighting for social freedoms when they elected the president? Are they no longer important? Is it the same reason that so many on the right turned a blind eye to fiscally irresponsible president because they elected him?
How come the left is no longer against the Iraq war? How come they are no longer raising Cain about the Patriot Act? How come they are no longer complaining about “welfare” to corporations? Weren’t these the reasons they hated the right? Did they stop all the noise because the left owns them now? Why is it about left v. right? Why did the left stop fighting for social freedoms when they elected the president? Are they no longer important? Is it the same reason that so many on the right turned a blind eye to fiscally irresponsible president because they elected him?
Well, if you’re asking honestly I can’t speak for the left. I’m not sure I would count as a member of that boogeyman organization. However, you’re right if you mean that now that its an Obama war, people have largely stopped criticizing it. However, there are many, many, many organizations and people who oppose it just as vehemently today as they did months ago. As can also be observed, a significant number of the left are fighting against Obama’s health care proposal because they see it as an abandonment of his mandate to fix health care and insurance.
I will also add that the Republican administration has claimed for years that the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq were over. Do you believe that? Do you believe they were over in 2008 and suddenly have started again now that its convenient to blame them on a Democratic president?
Finally, the left/right dichotomy as it exists today began in the mid to late sixties. Traditionally, the left has supported a progressive move to greater civil liberties and a remedy to the excesses of capitalism. The right has supported a maintenance of the status quo or even a return to an imagined past era. Today, there is less difference between the left and right than one would expect, due to the proliferation of commercial interests and their unregulated interference in the Democratic process.
As for, MSNBC probably bothers me as much as it does you; however, there are one or two programs, like Rachel Maddow that have a level of journalistic integrity not seen on other networks.
I don’t see any way out of that, nor do I actually advocate any solution to the mess we’re in here. I come here because the level of stupidity in the Republican discourse is simply unmatched in its offensive stupidity. There is nothing like this in the whole world. Frankly, I’m tired of these stupid people reflecting on my country.
More disingenious drivel; It is obvious to anyone reading your troll ghostwriter’s drivel,that you are an Obamanista affirmative action troll,who wants to emulate his idol’s in his use of the teleprompter.You can’t speak for the left!Yeah right! And Obama is not an inept boob!
Moho, interesting post. You choose to call a group of people stupid based on their politcal beliefs while at the same time you admit to really standing for nothing. What’s that saying…if you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything. You also admit that some of the Democrats feel the same way as the Republican, do you call them stupid? Where is your respect for your fellow Americans who are exercising their right to voice their opinion? You may not agree but when you resort to name calling you make your point mute.
It seems to me that you care nothing for what this great country stands for and what the founding fathers had invisioned. Maybe the Libertarian party, according to you, is the old Republican party, wanting to get back to the grassroots of what made this country great.
Do you stand for anything besides creating discord in an otherwise civil exchange of ideas?
I didn’t admit to standing for nothing, in fact. I don’t propigate my beliefs here. I don’t see the point in doing that. As I said quite clearly, I come here to show how easily disproven the articles here are, and how generally people who believe in such things are lazy thinkers. I do think that many libertarians have an odd view of history that excludes whatever isn’t convenient to their model. And as for Democrats opposing Democratic policies, well they do it for all kinds of reasons. Right or wrong, they do seem to have a knack for actually understanding what their concerns are and outlining solutions. I see nothing like that here.
Lastly, as I said, I don’t see this as a civil exchange of ideas. The amount of mendacity here should never be termed civil. If you believe in the craziness being propagated here–death panels and SEIU thugs and the like–then I would question what kind of civil discourse you’re capable of having. IMO, people believe those things because they want to believe them, and they generally want to believe them for completely uncivil reasons.
66: Why did you use my name instead of yours? I’ve been using Ms. Attitude on here for over a year!
Moho, you are reading too much into things. It seems you are looking for a fight. As for my view of history, I majored in history and am a big history buff. We don’t want the US to be the way it was at the founding, we want the principles.
As for the death panels and the SEIU thugs, if you read quotes from Obama and those he surounds himself with you’d see the facts. There are videos of SEIU members beating up people–black, white, it doesn’t matter.
Obama told Diane Sawyer in June that government should “study and figure out what works and what doesn’t. And let’s encourage doctors and patients to get what works. Let’s discourage what doesn’t.”
Sawyer then asked him: “Will it just be encouragement? Or will there be a board making Solomonic decisions?”
Obama replied, “What I’ve suggested is—is that we have a—a commission that helps—made up of doctors, made up of experts, that helps set best—best practices.”
When Sawyer pressed him to say whether those practices would be enforced by law, he evaded the question.
Moho, what was he talking about?
There are no such videos. There is a video in which two people are on the ground. I know that one of those men is a minister, a supposed “SEIU” thug. I don’t know anything about the other one except that his showing up in a wheelchair but no visible wounds of any kind on any part of his body, and with a lawyer in tow, certainly didn’t do anything for his credibility. In any case, hanging the charge based on one incident in which culpability–if there is any–hasn’t been assigned is lame at best, and disinformatory at worst. And I do think it is the worst going on here. You want to hang a Jimmy Hoffa-esque banner across the SEIU hoping that people will attach the mafia knee-breaking trope to them. But the majority of SEIU workers are female, and they are in the service industry. Most of them are janitors and low-paid home care attendants and hospital workers. This is just bs, and frankly, you lost all credibility when you brought it up.
Moho, loosing credibility with you is like loosing it to a stick. A simple search on Youtube and other video sources will show you many attrocities of the SEIU. There are others but not everyone is filming! The Democrats are paying people $15 an hour to show up at the townhall meetings to raise cain…look it up, I know you’ll find it. Obama is failing and he’s pulling out all of the stops, he wants to turn the races on each other so his failures aren’t so glaring in our faces. Wake up!
Moho @ 24:
But, but, but, what about that stealing of the oil? You mean to say that didn’t occur? Wha? Wait!
Moho, the whole war effort was less than 1 trillion. Make sure you get your facts right. OTOH, The 0bamanation is going to run a deficit of 9 trillion dollars in the next 10 years. But we know that facts don’t matter to you do they?
Okay, okay, I’ll stop baiting the poor darlings, Sherab.
Here you go folks, part of what Oleg is talking about:
Secret Takeovers
Money quote:
Yikes! Devolved into moho and ms. whata’tude show in 56 comments.
It is interesting to see how things have changed (not for the better) in just a few short years. Here is my recommendation be prepared for whatever make happen.