Who Won Round Two?
The stakes were high and the window of opportunity narrowing for John McCain going into Tuesday’s second presidential debate. Barack Obama’s lead in the polls is significant and even conservative commentators agree the odds are daunting for a McCain comeback.
But not all hope for McCain has been extinguished, in large part because Sarah Palin has revived the base’s spirits and come out swinging on Obama’s connections to a shady and problematic cast of characters — from the husband and wife team of former terrorists (Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn) to Tony Rezko to Reverend Wright. Then on Monday Obama’s team went so far as to argue that Obama did not really know that Ayers — the infamous former Weather Underground member and Obama’s colleague at the Annenberg Challenge and the Woods Fund — was a former terrorist. The Obama spin brigade doubled down on Tuesday, insisting that Obama had no idea who the notorious terrorist really was when he showed Obama around Chicago, sat with Obama on boards, and kicked off his political career in Ayers’ living room.
Not even the usually forgiving Obama press corps was buying that one. Aside from the fact that excuse previously had never been trotted out, it strains all credulity to image that a media drenched, politically astute Chicago resident like Obama would have been unaware of Ayers and his wife’s record.
So with all of that, hopeful Republicans and nervous Democrats perked up: would we finally have some debate fireworks and would McCain finally come out swinging (as he did in an appearance in New Mexico on Monday), with his “gloves off” as Palin advised him?
Well fireworks there were not. The debate lagged and dragged and at times was downright dull. Tom Brokaw cracked the whip on time, but alas he couldn’t add much excitement or get the candidates to answer simple questions like how much would Obama “fine” businesses for not carrying health care coverage that meets government mandates.
Did McCain win? Not even close. McCain was erratic and failed to land the type of blows that were really required of him. At best, it was a tie. However, preliminary polling numbers give it to Obama – even on Fox.
was McCain trying to channel Mr. Magoo, or Elmer Fudd?
whoever picked the stool that was too high for McCain is going to cop some colourful language backstage.
Obama won – no not me saying
but DAVID Brooks and the Polls
Sometime I wish for McCain to know when to finish his tought, instead keep repeating things over and over. I think he did not come across strong, but will see.Sorry to say, but a few times I pressed the MUTE button, just so I won’t have to hear all the repeats. But still Obama is out of question to vote for.
McCain gets a “B” for setting Obama up further, for telling the truth, but he needs to tell the whole story. From his Marxist grandparents, parents, and Soviet-fan Frank Marshall Davis, through al Mansour, Ayers, Dohrn, Alice Palmer (Communist Congresswoman who hand picked Obama to succede her in Congress), onward….
Everybody must read this — Web search:
Barack Obama Cloward-Piven ACORN
Why didn’t McCain hit Obama on the Pakistan thing. Obama gave his normal “what I really said” line. McCain should have said that the Pakistani newspapers are unlikely to do nuance when you say you will invade their country. McCain let Obama get away with too much.
mccain let …
becasue mccain is a tired old man
go pick another 72 year old next time again
Instant verdict: a no-score draw. Boring and dull and platitudinous. No heavy punches landed. The format scarcely helped. In fact it helped snuff out any threat of life or spark or conflict or, damn it, interest. And so, because of that, Obama, leading in the polls, won.
(i plagerize)
I am a conservative who supported Romney. i am still voting for McCain and still holding my nose. When will the republican party realize that conservative ideas are what we need. Who on earth is advising John McCain. He blew it big time. The Dems made a huge mistake with Obama but we made a bigger one. it was Jahn Mc Cain being John McCain thats what we got. thanks NH Fl and SC
Republicans have always been whimps when confronting Democrats. There has not been any fight in them since Gingrich. They just stand there and take it. Fight fire with fire !@#!!
Where is Reagan ? You can name at least six Democrat attack dogs. Can you name just five Republicans? Maybe two? No? How about one?
no one won. especially the american people. everyone hates republicans right now, even republicans. so, despite obama’s no ideas (except going into africa and threatening pakistan) and usual bullcrap, we’ll end up with this oily con man who never stops lying (pathologically). with obama’s ties to radicals, islamists and an assortment of real nutjobs. the only chance is that at that last moment in the voting booth, most people’s brains will work.
McCain comes across as an old guy and stiff. He is an old guy and stiff, but his voice was earnest, his emotions imploring, and his mind competent. In foreign policy he communicates a natural command.
Obama comes across as a young guy. He is a young guy. There are a lot of them in the world. He definitely seems bright enough to be a grad student, but while he lowers his voice to sound authoritative, there’s never an effortless sense that he dominates.
I try to imagine the thinking of a swing voter. Who won the debate is the one who won new votes. Everyone just now recognizes we’re in perilous times. That being the case, even ignoring how the debate might have been scored on points, who wants to go with a young guy who sounds just like every other young guy, rather than go with an old guy, who, while perhaps not coming across as brilliant, has at least been around for awhile?
It seems to me that for Barack to win he had to dominate. At best he managed a tie.
God help us. That’s all I can say.
romney woudl have been better VP
Well, my wife, a liberal democrat turned 9/11 democrat, watched the debate, and she scored it solidly for McCain. She didn’t like everything he said, but thought he was much more convincing than Obama.
I was ready to vote for whomever first shut up before his time was up, even switching my vote to Obama. Geez, when you’ve made your point, STFU! Talk ‘em into a sale, then talk ‘em out of it. These guys need to get real jobs! Now, I know why Governors get elected President and Senators don’t! Ugh!
McCain couldn’t hammer Obama on his radical associations, because this debate format wasn’t conducive for him to do so. Maybe McCain will at the next and very last debate.
The body language of Obama much of the time screams out the clinical diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. Plus he’s shallow and out of his depth on a range of issues. McCain did not perform well.
Emphasis on PERFORM, because today’s political debates are not even a pale shadow of what they were decades and a hundred years or more ago.
Today’s “debates” are for the benefit of the mushbrains in the Middle Muddle. If you don’t know the candidates, their platforms, their policy preferences, their advisers, their voting records, their character, their educational and life influences, and their financing/backers by now, then you are truly lazy and should be ashamed of yourselves.
Anyway, because McCain did not do a lot better than Obama, it goes to Obama because he’s ahead in the polls and the darling of the doofusses.
BTW, I was a Democrat most of my life and only recently changed parties. And a lot of those years when I was a Democrat I was almost as far Left as Obama is. It was a journey of the intellect that took me across to the opposite end of the political spectrum.
For the first time in my life I am ashamed and almost contemptuous of the voters in my country. They will get what they deserve in the next four years. Let us hope that we can survive it and that people learn a lesson from it. These years ahead will make Jimmy Carter’s years appear rosy in comparison.
I came home last, missed the beginning. Turned it on. McCain is talking about global warming. He’s traveled the world and seen the damage done by global warming, he says. We need to clean the environment, he says. I shut it off.
I realize Obama is completely ridiculous and it’s imperative that we keep him out of the White House, but does McCain really think Republicans want to listen to that nonsense? Global warming stopped in 1998. Man-made global warming is a theory, and nothing more. It’s nauseating to hear this stuff repeated as fact in a presidential debate — and by a Republican!
Obama did make a big gaffe tonight. During talk about healthcare, he called healthcare a “national security issue”!
I am not making this up. It might have been in the prioritize question. There were three questions where the subject came up, I think, but the debate was so boring, I failed to realize which question. That statement made me sit up, though!
I gave the edge to McCain tonight. When Obama spoke I had to mute the TV to keep from getting too upset at all the lies.
Since an Obama presidency is unthinkable, I’m voting PALIN for the White House, and Libertarian (http://www.lp.org/) or Independent for Congress.
Anyone in Congress with a D or R after their name needs to be tossed out for 4-8 years to go back to their own states and sit in the corner. That COULD happen if enough voters are “man” enough to do so. It’s our own damn fault that we keep electing our own ineffective Congresspersons.
Obama supporter here – I’m angry. We’re all behaving like cheerleaders. McCain is not a bad candidate at all. He’s got good ideas and I think he’s a legitimate conservative being warped by his staff. The star power is NOT Palin, it’s McCain and the media and his staff are corrupting his message and simultaneously dividing the electorate. Rationally, I think both candidates offer alot. McCain IS a maverick. The 2000 McCain made a lot of sense to a lot of people and he’s a big big step up from Bush. Obama represents the hopes of a dynamic, democratic state. These are two good, smart people. We have real choices. We should be proud, but instead we’re berating each other, sinking into doom and gloom and looking for political zingers to win the day. Let’s take a deep breath, be thankful and return to a thoughtful debate.
Let’s skip the b.s. We should be arguing why healthcare should or should not be a public good, why pre-emptive strikes are or are not advisable, why sectors should or should not be regulated. There are tons of fundamental questions that could spur real healthy debate and we should be able to disagree with out having such emotional ties.
I love to bring up this example – sports. If you look at the football pre-game shows, the level of analysis and discourse is actually pretty high. One of the main reasons? The guys don’t have a dog in the race. They are really trying to make thoughtful predictions / analyses. Ironically, I think we need LESS passion in politics. Please don’t give up on McCain, because he’s the real conservative, not Sarah Palin. McCain has large and credible body of work and real thoughtful positions. I think we should be able to proceed without tearing each other down.
Good night all.
Am I wrong, or did Obama completely evade the question of Social Security and Medicare when Brokaw asked the two of them to prioritize energy, health care, and entitlements? McCain said we could handle all at once, while Obama simply substituted “education” for Social Security and Medicare. Brokaw never called him on this!
As an aside, I deeply resent the power that the establishment press has in determining the questions of the debates. Who made them the fourth branch of government? And why is there no vast public outcry? Why are trained historians and political scientists entirely irrelevant to the national discussion?
Finally, the question of who won or lost the debate is laughable and idiotic. As is the obsession of the so-called free press in handling the campaign as either a successful or failed manipulation of the feelings of the electorate, rather than debating policy and explaining what the difference is between the policies and assumptions of the contending parties and factions within parties. Dumb and dumber. The format of these “debates” is anathema to rational deliberation and the opportunity to call out errors made by either side.
What a waste.
We’re doomed.
greg your wife is a moron
1 she married you
2 she thinks mccain won
Fred you never had an intellect
if you went agaists your principles years ago and
now changed – mark of stupid person
malone is right – they went on and on
Gee…McCain’s gonna buy everyone’s house now. How about a brand new car while we’re at it? Now that I see so clearly that I have a choice between a mealy-mouthed socialist and a mealy-mouthed socialist, I’m voting for Nader — just to encourage him for next time.
I came into the debate late, only to watch Obama’s wincing and rolling his eyes in the background as McCain tried to make a point about Iraq and Afghanistan. Then it hit me- why Obama makes me so uncomfortable. He reminds me of that group in high school- you know, the ones who gave you “that look” if you dared to sit at their lunch table or walk in their shadow. The ones who always thought they were above it all. Of course we all learned later in life that they weren’t nearly as great as they (and sometimes we) thought they were, as I know we will learn with Obama soon, once the bloom is off the rose.
Don, I agree. I think this was a “Camp McCain” idea. There’s a MIT economist (I think) who is espousing no action, citing some historical precedence in Korea and Sweden, I believe, that an asset liquidation might be the healthiest long term solution. Why are we looking for solutions from politicians whose sole purpose is to convince us that they need us and to stay in power. I said it in another forum. Why can’t we seem to have a fiscally conservative, socially liberal candidate?
we didnt have a group but I know Im better than
any creationist.
Im waiting for a cretin to respond
but my job is done here, Palin is toast,
bye
Not to worry. Obama will win. Voters are realizing that McCain plans and ideas will not benefit the majority in this country. He’s stuck in the past, while Obama is looking to the future. He talks about preventing crises. He talks diplomacy, and if results are not forthcoming, action. That’s what we need now.
The fact that the Obama team is constantly trying to deny or downplay the Ayers connection or play ignorant of his dealings is virtually an admission on their part that there is something to hide. When and what Obama knew is debatable, but it is clear that early on in the campaign they recognized it as a liability. Actually, it is very disturbing that a friend of American haters may very soon be president. That is beside the point that I am opposed to his socializing plans for America. For those who really think that Bush took away our rights, just wait and see what awaits.
John McCain as all of us, after all we learned and still learning about Barack Obama has to have some ‘space’ alone with the American people on Television supported by slides on what his ‘intelligence’ has found. Maybe half hour right in our faces.. Millions will be watching.. This debate tonight was done poorly by Tom Brockaw. Not conducive to what John McCain ‘had in his belly’ coming in.It’s hard to ‘surf’ on a mill pond. John, if you’re reading this.. get on TV, all stations, same time. Tell us what you know..Also show the actual legislation on slides and why you voted ‘yes’ or ‘no’.Don’t get ‘fabricated’ on a ‘straight’ vote, when the ‘earmark attachments aren’t being presented by the ‘EEL’… (my new name for B.O.)…You need this ‘alone’ time with us John. Frank P. Stoneham, Mass.
Hello there nlcatter:
I am a creationist;
I am better than you are.
You can’t do anything about me.
Wanna try?
I won. I read a book.
Yes Vivo, he TALKS about preventing crises, but that’s all he does… talk. He talked tonight about how we need to be proactive in our foreign policy, anticipating crises and acting first to prevent them from happening. That is exactly what we did in Iraq, but of course, then he was against pre-emptive action. His public record completely belies what he claimed in the debate.
Re:
“Sarge:
Republicans have always been whimps when confronting Democrats. There has not been any fight in them since Gingrich. They just stand there and take it. Fight fire with fire !@#!!…”
I agree completely with Sarge!
I really hate to say this but McCain lost the election tonight.
McCain should do nothing if not hammer over and over again (with the same perserverance the Dems use with their “talking points”) that:
This crisis was caused by the Dems policies and philosophies being “enforced” over the years by the the likes of Frank, Dodd, Schumer, Pelosi, etc. Next, Obama is cut from the same cloth. Finally, turn the Dems argument against them. If you want more of the same, vote Obama.
McCain needs to hammer this theme over and over and over again!!!!!
Jennifer your points about Ayers are so stupid. Obama was eight years old when he was a weatherman. I go to the university of Chicago so by your standards I am an associate of a terrorist. So is the 50 or so University of Chicago professors who have won Nobel prizes. Maybe you could research and write down all the important, successful people who have ever been in the same room as Ayers before, then maybe you could write and actual news article and maybe win some kind of an award bs journalism award that they hand out to conservative hacks like you. But know this, you will never, ever even come close to gaining the prestige of these so called terrorist sympathizers who are at the University of Chicago and have changed the world for the better.
“Fred you never had an intellect
if you went agaists your principles years ago and
now changed – mark of stupid person” – drivel uttered by “nlcatter”
You misspelled “against” and you consistently write poorly. You lob snarky remarks and never go beyond that. “Mark of stupid person.” No, m’am, I am most certainly not a stupid person. I have an M.A. in Philosophy from Loyola of Chicago and an M.B.A. in Finance from Boston College.
I went against my principles because I had a brain and found out that socialist thought is entirely wrong from every angle I investigated. I actually spent ten years of my life, from my undergraduate years through my seminary years, attempting to see if there could be a scientific basis for human nature being able to change to accommodate the utopian features of socialism. After all, socialism has a telos, even if some of its adherents are not ostensibly aware of it. Michael Novak’s critiques of Liberation Theology and Marxist analysis were very incisive, and I took only the best conservative critiques to heart. My project was to see if there could be a way to revise Marxist analysis and epistemology so that it could actually work. It could not be done. My investigations into human developmental psychology, genetics, and even neuroscience in the late eighties, about the time I left the Left, took me down a path that brought me to a conclusion that socialism fails, has failed, and always will fail. It is incompatible with human nature. So, for ten years of my life I was in fact a Pelagian heretic.
When the evidence suggests that my youthful aspirations were wrong, I changed my convictions and altered my mindset. That is what intelligent and ethical people do. The fact that you do not see it that way indicts you as an intellectual pygmy with defective morals.
The fact that most of the time I write better than you do is evident for everyone to see here. You are widely regarded here on PJM as a tool and a fool.
And you deserved the beat down I just gave you. Please do ask for more; I’ll be happy to oblige.
Was there a fly buzzing around the room? Oh it left. Good riddance.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/10/obama-electione.html
OBAMA ELECTIONEERING AT TAX EXEMPT MOSQUES: POLITICAL ISLAM AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE
McCain won. Obama lost.
Obama lost because he is out of his league and is an inexperienced empty suit.
I don’t believe that there are a significant number of “undecided” voters at this point in time. The contrasts between McCain and Obama are as great as day and night. I think that the vast majority of Americans will be voting for McCain and Palin.
The crazy liberals on the coasts will be voting for Obama but middle America and the south will be voting for McCain. Whites males and females are solidly in support for McCain according to Gallup.
Obama is the token minority and unqualified candidate. Americans don’t like token minorities since they are only there because of their race.
In other words, Obama is no Colin Powell. McCain will win this one going away.
Horrible format for the debate. The only thing I found of any interest were, one, Obama’s refusal to say he would come directly to Israel’s defense in case of an attack by Iran and Obama’s Fannie defense. Tonight was the second time I’ve heard Obama make the claim that, two years ago, he sent a letter complaining of subprime lending and the need for greater oversight of Fannie and Freddie. I can find reference to no such letter elsewhere, nor does a copy of this correspondence appear on his website. Obama is a political coward. I find it hard to believe he was taking a position at polar opposites to the Democrat party line in 2006. Does anyone know what correspondence he is refering to and where a copy may be found.
Wow, this debate was awful–the format was terrible and the moderator was such a hindrance. There was no spontaneity and I did not learn anything new. How disappointing. I hope the last one will be better.
It’s all over
CNN, CBS and even Fox give a clear win to Obama
neocons are toast. the Project for a New American Century won’t even last a decade.
all you redneck red-state reactionaries better stock up on tinned food and ammo and head for the shelter
Why is Tom Brokoff still on TV? Was he the only one who could select the most benign questions, most of which were asked and answered in debate one?
I can’t wait for debate three.
Embalming fluid anyone?
Lets face it, we wouldn’t be in any of this crap if George Bush was really a conservative. What a way to learn that they’re all a bunch of damn liars who are more interested in their own welfare than the people who elected them. We’ve all been played for fools, and right now guys on wall street are playing everyone for fools.
There is going to be a revolution. America 2.0 is coming.
The first year of an Obamanation should get it started.
I knew it would be a waste, when I heard how the questions had been selected. That’s not a town hall debate. That’s some damned moderator choosing the questions. He may as well have written them all himself.
There was nothing on the issues where Obama is vulnerable. No radical friends. No 1st amendment. No 2nd amendment. No abortion. No gay rights. No immigration. No questions on our role in NATO. No questions on the politics in Iraq. No Logan violation question. No ACORN. How about, “Where are the people who can speak to your past? where are your references?”
Danged stacked deck, as usual!
The debate itself was a wash and anything that doesn’t hurt Obama helps Obama at this point. Both candidates relied on the same tired stump speeches and bumper sticker slogans.
The only new idea was McCain’s home mortgage buyback plan which has the look of a hastily and desperately concocted ploy in response to sagging poll numbers. After Bear Stearns, AIG, the automakers subsidy and the Paulson Plan, where would the money come from? I suspect McCain himself doesn’t know.
McCain threw the election away by not being proactive in coming up with a solid conservative alternative to the bailout when he suspended his campaign. The mortgage plan packaged with the House Republicans reform ideas might have proved a popular alternative to a Wall Street bailout at that point. He could have positioned the Dems and Obama on the same side as Bush and tied them all to Wall Street.
Instead, he twiddled his thumbs in Washington, then he scurried back for a debate where he failed to press the Democrats on their responsibility for the mortgage crisis. He let the Dems define the issue for 10 days before responding. He lost the issue and the election right there.
The biggest problem I have with McCain,is Sarah Palin….That has to be a Bad Joke that just wil not go away.
I have always liked McCain a nd I think many people do…Democrats included. But then he goes off the deep end and chooses Malibu Barbie as his running mate?!!!!
What does that say about his state of mind…She doesn’t even know his state of mind, let alone his record or anything about anything..A vote now for McCain would be a vote for senility.
Obama comes off to me as those weve been warned about sheep in wolves colthing and Gadianton Robbers. Seems to be fitting the role more and more.
You know, I’ve agonized over McCain’s ineptitude during this campaign. When he said he thought Warren Buffet would be a good Treasury Secretary, I realized I didn’t know what real agony was, but would certainly find out if he was elected President. Like Harriet Meyers moments X 10? I cwouldn’t be able to take it so I’ll vote “none of the above” in lieu of shooting myself.
It comes down to one question. Are you a socialist or are you a capitalist?
nclatter: Enough with the personal attacks. You’re making independents and democrats look bad. If you want to make an argument, I think we’d all appreciate it if you did it without calling someone a moron or an idiot.
Hey Fred – glad you stood up for yourself against that twit nlcatter. I always find your comments intelligent and well thought out and educational. Please keep posting.
McCain won tonight, just like the first time, but it wasn’t a big enough win, so this serves Obama well enough.
I’m still not on board with the “Obama is a smart guy” meme. I’m sorry, but a B average from Columbia isn’t impressive at all. Neither is getting into Harvard Law ONLY because of his connections. So far, nothing speaks to his so-called intelligence. He was made editor of Harvard Law Review…but didn’t publish a single thing — a first for someone in that position. Hmmm, I guess the myth about lawyers being smart carries a lot of weight with numbskulls.
He has zero experience, executive or otherwise. He spent all of 142 (or so) days in the Senate before starting his presidential campaign. He hasn’t run anything in his life — no, he doesn’t run his campaign either. He is a charismatic graduate student with mediocre grades at best, and yet people want to appoint him POTUS? This would be laughable if it weren’t so dangerous.
If you look at his record — you know, what reasonable people look at when they determine what the candidate will do in office — then you cannot believe 80% of what he says. He is the most radical and liberal presidential candidate ever. There is not one significant thing he’s done in his entire political career. He is the definition of a do-nothing senator.
He must run on Hope and Change because he doesn’t have a record worth mentioning. And, ultimately, this is the shame all his supporters must face: you have no grounds for your faith in this man. He is a con artist, a transparent one, which makes you all wilful accomplices in this sham election.
Is it too late for the two Republicans to swap positions on their ticket?
McCain WON.
Facts, consistency, presentation.
Obama LOST.
Vaugeness, weakness, superficial glibness, talking AT, not to, the audience.
And, BY THE WAY: Did you catch the part when he said the Baltic states needed more democracy? THEY’RE ALREADY DEMOCRACIES!!!
Colette Oct 7, 2008 – 10:19 pm:
Yes Vivo, he TALKS about preventing crises, but that’s all he does… talk. He talked tonight about how we need to be proactive in our foreign policy, anticipating crises and acting first to prevent them from happening. That is exactly what we did in Iraq, but of course, then he was against pre-emptive action. His public record completely belies what he claimed in the debate.
Of course he talks, he’s not President yet, duh!
And that’s not what they did in Iraq. If they had, there wouldn’t be an Iraqui invasion.
Ed Wallis:
“McCain WON.
Facts, consistency, presentation.
Obama LOST.
Vaugeness, weakness, superficial glibness, talking AT, not to, the audience.”
Wallis: deaf, blind and wrong. Wake up, man!
Mcsame does not get it. Even to the degree that he proves to be recialist at best, and facistic at worse. It is distestful how he treats his rival BO @ debates. Racial american president?? No way!!
Great synopsis from VDH here at PJM:
http://pajamasmedia.com/victordavishanson/not-quite-ready-to-join-the-crusade/
Spread it far and wide!
Evil can only triumph when good men do nothing.
McCain won. If an Obama presidency wouldn’t be so scarey for the United States, I’d say, go ahead and let him win, that way we can say “told you so” when he makes major mistakes!!
Mccain had a chance to score some points for himself when the lady blamed BOTH parties for this mess. Of course, he couldn’t flat out contradict her and appear partisan, but he could have called out the many democrats who blissfully insisted that F&M was smooth sailing, and praise members of his own party who voiced concern.
Mccain went for the independent vote here IMO. The GOP lost its majority during the recent elections because they failed to connect with the more moderate voters. Polls typically show him winning the conservative vote easily. The audience in the debate were undecided voters, so he understandably touted his bipartisanship and tried to appear as that maverick who can defy his own party for the good of the country. Too much negativity might turn off some independent voters.
I personally think there’s more conservative votes to be had for him. George Bush was just AWFUL in all of the debates in 04. But conservatives rallied around him because he clearly embodied their principles. Family / religious values were a HUGE issue in that eleciton. I think President Reagan passed away around that time as well, which also provided the conservatives with a sense of urgency to defend their cause.
Meanwhile Mccain is a soft conservative who believes he can be pals with the democrats. Fire up the base first.
With a politician you have to pick the one who lied the least which was McCain. Only the smart voter knows they will say anything to get elected. Both will tell a group one thing then another the opposite the day after. Base your vote on their voting record on issues.
Watch the obots taking their queue from HQ: new talking point – ‘erratic’ goes the echo chamber: its’s frightening because it indicates the size and breath of the unthinking army, ready for the take-over. It’s 1935.
“Grab your guns and start praying when your desperate neighbors will try to dispossess you.” – (posted under “Is Mexico Really Dysfunctional?”) “vivo” spreading the Socialist revolution one post at a time.
We lost on January 29th. That’s the night McCain won Florida and Rudy ended his campaign.
Still, Obama has the history of a reformed Black Panther and is unsuitable for President.
Jennifer, The most amazing part of the debate I thought was when McCain responded to Obama’s accusation that McCain had voted against alternative energy bills 27 times. McCain’s response that those 27 bills were loaded with pork exposed Obama better than anything else said all night on domestic issues!
…and, on the “national economy” part of the debate…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PECBIPeQpsA
I thought it was awful. The entire thing. I’m sorry I watched. Audience participation was almost creepy. Nothing seemed natural. And Brokaw was pathetic. It had the feel of death about it. Sort of like what our country will be like with a super liberal Dem in power. Like Europe has seemed to me the last few times I visited: Dead and dying.
I nearly threw up when I heard – first question? – Obama say he’d written two letters and made one phone call warning Treas. Secy. and others about this financial mess. He’d have copies of those letters all over the internet and in the hands of every supporter to wave in front of the camera if that were true. What. A. Creep.
I keep hearing him talk like he knows Sec. Paulson. And I’m beginning to believe it. Paulson supported Dems til 2004 when he helped Bush’s reelection and was rewarded with Treas. post. Bush has been stupid before: remember Putie’s eyes? When that Paulson dude wrote the first bailout plan with HIM getting SOLE discretionary power over the entire $700billion, I coudn’t believe anyone could be so brazen.
I began to smell something really rotten. With the second bailout plan passing, I don’t know who’s watching that money. I know I don’t want it to be in the hands of BO and pals who will pass it along to their radical friends like BO and Ayers did with the CAC funds. That’s a real concern I have – especially if BO and fellow Dems control all branches of government.
Has anyone considered that the stock market might be dropping because the recent polls indicate there’s a really good chance BO will win this thing? Historically, stock markets react — TANK — with the prospect of a liberal Dem leading the way. Who the hell is going to buy and sell stocks if your earnings will be taxed like crazy. And they will be. They know BO is clueless about the economy – with him, a Depression is a surety.
McCain is our only hope this economy recovers. He’ll cut spending. Big time. And it’s about time. He won’t raise taxes. I just hope people heard that last night. I don’t hold out alot of hope, though, that they did.
I knew Brokaw wouldn’t allow any Ayers questions. But BO gave McCain the opening. Someone upthread mentioned BO made education a top priority – yes – he substituted it for the SocSec/Medicare priority! That’s right, folks, he has in mind creating more schools like the one you see on those creepy videos: Camp Obama’s young people in fatigues chanting BO’s our saviour, and those other little kids singing praises to BO with their blue “Hope” T-shirts. As a parent, they’d have to shoot me to allow my kids to be indoctrinated like that.
With BO’s mention of education as a priority, McCain could have pointed out how BO and Ayers were given an opportunity to improve education in Chicago years ago. And they failed. They went to work with Annenburg/matching funds of $150million and disbursed it to their radical friends instead – ACORN was one – rather than schools to improve education.
How are we to be sure he’d be responsible with our money? Remember, his narcissism allows him to be above the law.
He could also have pointed out that ACORN just yesterday had their Nevada offices raided by state authorities. And found – as they have numerous times in the past – more fraudulent voter registration.
This ACORN is very important to the “community organizer” — BO has trained them and even been their legal counsel. He knows all about their fraudulent activity. And approves of it, I’m sure. Just as he knows all about the terrorism of his associates and corruption of his pals like Rezko. And has no problem with those activities as well.
His delicate hands will never dirty themselves — he’ll maintain the facade of innocence. But those slender wrists WILL wear the band of a fallen soldier despite the requests of his parents that their son not be used to further this man’s political aspirations.
This is one creepy dude. And if America doesn’t wake up, we’re screwed.
Too much government spending.
Too much government waste.
We need to cut government programs and save money.
Too much, too much, too much.
My plan is to spend $300 billion to buy failed mortgages and renegotiate them.
WTF?!?!?!!?
Terrible couple of nights, that was no town hall meeting, brokaw hoodwinked us worse that gibson, obama is running unopposed (save palin) pulling off a conning of america and not a great con either, as one of the ladies above mentioned nobody won that mess america lost, house was a rerun, and the saints lost the night before too, i’ve got to clear my head, what’s the stock market doing?
You guys kill me with your McCain support, I’ve listened to this guy from day 1 trying to understand what you all see and hear and frankly, I get it. If Obama were white, he would have 85% of the national votes behind him both Reps and Dems. Instead you are all not voting for him because you’ve labeled him everything unamerican. Just remember it was your Reps. who got us here in the first place. So when your homes and jobs are in jeopardy if McCain is voted in, remember you had the opportunity to change things in 08.
my friends .. my friends … my friends. Man, if McCain could quit saying that. I couldn’t handle 4 years of “My friends” from here every 10 seconds.
McCain is out of touch. His health care policies are WAY off track. Taxing employers will lead to the a HUGE crisis in this country. There will be SO many companies drop the coverage and you will see a HUGE up tick in uninsured. Health carriers won’t insure the uninsuranble and tighten up underwriting as they will have a windfall of incoming clients for individual coverage. So, even semi healthy will get denied .. where they might normally get coverage. Underwriters just won’t have the time if they aren’t ultra-healthy to insure them.
Also, I don’t feel like giving “my” tax money to the ultra-wealthy big companies in this country. I think in the last couple weeks we see what they do with it.
Obama has to win this, I don’t want to see what would happen with McCain in office. Very scary
Also, to all who say McCain one … please look at the polls. All I have to say. Can’t deny facts when they point to an overwhelming majority saying Obama won.
I was hoping that McCain would be stronger. He needs to take some lessons from Sarah Palin.
The best case against Obama remains Obama’s supporters, his own history, and the harm he will so to America. So given a choice between a tepid and lame McCain and a destructive Obama, my vote remains a vote against Obama and socialism. I was really hoping for something to vote ‘for’.
I though Mac won this one. He wasn’t anywhere near perfect, but he threw some good punches. Obama is very sharp, but he had some very weak moments. Now we “need” offshore drilling, whereas his reversal on that three weeks ago was merely a compromise to get legislation passed. He charged the Pubs with deregulation fever, when it was the Dems who protected Fannie and Freddie from desperately needed regulation. And his citation of Mac’s voting record was eye-glazing. Despite his powers of articulation he was clearly groping for the right thing to say at times.
I wouldn’t characterize the debate as boring. If Mac wants to shake things up he needs to convince people he’s willing to take on the powers now. This debate, and Palin’s unleashing, is a small, but still insufficient, start. If they continue down this road they – and America – have a chance. God bless America.
There seems to be a distinct disconnect with reality on this board. While I am not an Obama supporter, even I can see the writing on the wall. McCain will lose because Americans are tired of Bush and his near-complete failure as a President, and unfortunately for McCain, he’s a part of that debacle. Obama may not be the answer to who is the best man (or woman) for the job, but he is certain to be the answer for who will be elected president. I myself will be voting my conscience (meaning neither McCain nor Obama as I find both unsuitable for the job) and would urge all Americans to do the same. The “us and them” mentality is what has brought us to this point and while Bush and his policies are partially responsible the truth is that at least half the country voted him back again, not because they wanted to, but because they didn’t like Kerry. My theory is that if most people voted for whom they think is the most qualified candidate, not who they are brainwashed into by their respective party, neither a democrat nor republican would be in office, but the will of the people would be realized. I know that this view will be thought of rather dimly by those whose egos are bound up in the success of “their” candidate and thats a pity. My objective is not to fire a debate on why Obama or McCain IS the correct choice, but to get people to realize that two choices is tantamount to no choice. Does anyone here really believe that there are only TWO people qualified for this job in our whole nation of some 300 million? Of course not, but sadly, some of you believe there is only one…
Not sure who “won” – all I know for sure is that, either way, WE THE PEOPLE lost. McCain has had more than one chance to stand up for fiscal responsibility – instead, after bailing out Fannie, Freddie, IAG, the auto-companies and Wal-Street he now wants to devalue mortgages and bail out dead beats. I expect this kind of lame crap out of communist-agitator osamabama but I am filled with so much anger hearing it again and again out of McCain. We’ve scrimped and saved our whole lives – we’ve worked our butts off to pay off our mortgage – have zero credit card debt – only buy things that we can afford – sent four kids to college with NO tuition loans. Our reward? Our home, which we counted on for income through a reverse mortgage when we used up our savings, will now be worth far less – our carefully hoarded CDs pay nada in interest and the cost of EVERYTHING is high and growing higher because the numb nuts who run everything won’t allow for drilling here and continue to devalue the dollar by running up the debt to buy votes. “Anger” doesn’t even begin to describe my feelings.
We are older and have lived our whole lives by the rules – our reward? p o v e r t y to pay for those who are greedy, wasteful, lazy or power hungry. SHAME!
McCain did not win. Obama started way far to the left during the primaries but now there are some times, not a lot, that he sounds almost republican. Obama is BSing us all the way the the WH. I can’t believe people in this country are going to vote for this guy.
Arlen Williams:
Great post! I googled what you said: Barack Obama Cloward-Piven ACORN
and read the American Thinker article. Very insightful! Thanks.
If you want to read about Obama and his radical left ties, google what Arlen Williams posted and you’ll get a lot of good info.
This could be huge news. Sorry to be OT.
Worldnetdaily.com is reporting their Jerome Corsi is being held incommunicado in Kenya. Detained and unable to take his flight out.
He went there to discover BO’s ties to Odinga’s campaign, etc. and it was reported he was about to reveal some big stuff.
McCain missed so many opportunities and kept repeating what he has said. Obama was lying, and McCain did not hold him.
#1) Obama, “I wrote a letter to Secretary Paulson about the Financial Crisis.
McCain should have said,
“You are a S-E-N-A-T-O-R. Your job is to introduce or sign onto L-E-G-I-S-L-A-T-I-O-N to change the problem. Sure writing a letter is good. But, that is NOT what Illinois put your fanny into the Senate seat to do. Writing a letter was a C-O-N-V-E-N-I–N-T thing to do. Writing legislation required that you not take on your own Democratic party who, along with you, was in the purse strings of Freddie and Fannie. The same Democrats threw concrete on my legislation to make the changes a few years ago, and prevented it from going to the floor for vote.
#2) What don’t you know and how are you going to find out?
What McCain should have said
Obama’s true character is what I don’t know.
-Obama said he was a Muslim (albeit a slip up).
-The Muslim leaders around the world think he is a Muslim.
-Obama doesn’t just “pal around” with terrorists. They helped him launch his political career. Obama wrote the book cover review. This same terrorist and he served on education reform. The terrorist lauded Chavez education plan in a speech in Venezuela. Chavez’s plan is to convert and indoctrinate the school children into Chavez’s way. Obama will not open his Columbia school records. This leads me to think that he’s wanting to hide his relationship with Ayers.
-Obama hangs out with Communists.
-Obama’s Democratic friends are at the center of Freddie and Fannie.
-Obama worked for ACORN, a fraud laden and criminal voter fraud organization that makes up names like “Jive Turkey” to be voters.
-Obama campaigned for his relative in Kenya. A Marxist.
Geez, McCain!
kathy: “I get it. If Obama were white, he would have 85% of the national votes behind him both Reps and Dems”
If Obama were white he wouldn’t be in the race (no pun intended) and this would be about Hillary. There is nothing new with Obama he’s just a black Carter. For those not around in those days hang on, it’s going to get rough. We are not even close to how bad it could be.
Here’s my $0.02 (Canadian). As I said over at LGF:
This debate was a tactic in McCain’s campaign strategy. It’s a “long war” strategy, and what matters is how it ends. As you all might recall, Obama doesn’t know the difference between strategy and tactics.
As I see it, this phase of the campaign is about making Obama play defense. That’s what I saw tonight. It worked out great. Obama was having to defend himself all night. Well, when he wasn’t agreeing with McCain, that is.
McCain, I thought, mostly answered questions. Mostly. Obama skirted ‘em.
I also noted his dropping of the “g”‘s all the time, pandering to the southern audience. McCain sounded like he always does.
Commodity healthcare? WTF? A commodity is like, say, wheat or natural gas: everything is the same. Do you want the same healthcare from every doctor? Really? America is where the wealthy from the world over go to to ESCAPE commodity healthcare! Sheesh. Healthcare as a RIGHT? Ask yourself who provides the service. If it’s a right, then it should obtain from nature just as, say, an apple falls from the ground for the animals to pick up. (This gets in my craw, not the apple, the idea, being a Canadian notwithstanding!) I wish Ayn Rand were still around to teach these goobers about rights and from where they arise. John Galt’s speech should be required reading every year from the 7th grade until graduation from university.
And, clearly, Brokaw knows nothing of “Zen”.
Second try, thank you crappy internet connection:
I think McCain won, but not by a lot. I agree, Obama is Carter but worse, and I used to be a democrat (until this election) ALl the people lining up to vote for his free lunch are going to be very sad when the bill comes due and he sticks them with it.
I do NOT want the government involved in my healthcare, in any way shape form or fashion. Scary.
I also do not want to be nuked in my sleep while people talk to liars who have very clearly stated their intentions. So I will vote McCain.
Any chance of the Acorn Nevada Office raid for voter fraud coming back on Obama like it should?
Teamplayer said it correctly, we need less emotion with the public, thereby demanding more substance from the candidates. Both Obama and McCain repeated themselves from the first debate, except for McCain weighing the option of perhaps supporting a mortgage bailout. Obama took no risks as the frontrunner knowing that McCain probably did not possess the ability to land any knockout blows, and it may have worked. Unfortunately for the public, it made for a rather forgettable night.
In Republican eyes McCain won. To independents and democrats Obama won. Its simple, if McCain can keep winning over the republicans he already has this will be a landslide election for BO.
JB
It’s not that Obama is black or white.
It’s that Obama has too many unanswered questions about his friends. Birds of a feather flock together.
Obama’s friends are Rev. White. Enough said.
Ayers. Who is an UNRePENTANT terrorist who recently supported Chavez’s education.
Obama supported Kenyan marxists.
Obama’s friends are communists.
Geez. Get the black v. white out of your mind. I know black and white people who keep better associations.
McCain doesn’t want to tax employers on your healthcare, he wants to tax you. If your employer pays $800 a month for your healthplan, that $800 will be considered income to you, and taxed at whatever income tax rate you’re at. Then, at the end of the year, you will get a $5000 refundable tax credit. Only very highly taxed (very high income) people will be taxed more than that $5000. Most people will actually get money back, to offset insurance costs. Won’t cost your employer a thing, so no one will get dropped. That’s an obama lie. Stop spreading it.
I thought I wouldn’t see myself type this but I agree with McSame.
Obama is saying what America wants to hear no matter if he’s telling the truth or not and a majority are falling for it.
Freedom is just another word,
I was just replying to another post that said, “I don’t get it. If Obama were white, he would have 85% of the national votes behind him both Reps and Dems” I thought that was a stupid statement. I don’t care what color the man is he’s not qualified to be President because he is a socialist and because of his past and present associations. I guess I needed to be clearer
what a sad state we are in
in one corner we have a socialist with oratory skill who says nothing but sounds convincing saying it
in the other a man who spends so much time reaching across the aisle that he loses what he really stands for
heaven help us if/when Obama is elected
unfortunately those idealist young people that vote by charisma wouldn’t be able to spot another Jimmy Carter and the consequences of electing him. this time the stakes are even higher
Last night’s debate was a surprising bore, because McCain had seemed on fire the day before.
Today, ACORN offices have been raided in several states for voter fraud. Obama was a trainer for fraud and probably had a role in getting them $25 billion dollars in Paulson’s original bailout plan.
This should be made known to the voters.
I have yet to see a video of the boarded-up public housing Obama worked on with Tony Rezko. The only people to profit from Obama’s public housing efforts were Obama and the now imprisoned Tony Rezko.
Black parents worry about education for their children. Obama and Bill Ayers worked together on a foundation and squandered 60 million dollars or was it 60 million dollars a year and how many disadvantaged children learned to read?
Instead, the purpose was radicalization of the children. How do we allow this to happen?
All idealists, white and black, should learn that Obama is for Obama and no one else.
Obama is tied to ACORN, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mae, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Tony Rezko, Bill Ayers, and other unsavory characters.
Does Warren Buffett still endorse Obama in light of all this?
Neither candidate won and only the American public lost. Our next President is going to be Obama whether we like it or not because the public is sick and tired of Bush regardless of how anyone feels personally about the guy. As a country we are hurting and just like 1976 we are going to elect a bad President.
That said, both candidates side step the question about sacrifice because scarifice doesn’t win votes. It was a very important question because as everyone knows we are already sacrificing in our lives, but it isn’t doing any good in Washington. I say that as a nation there needs to be real sacrifice to fix our country starting with a 1% federal sales tax (fair tax plan) that will go directly to the national debt. This would immediately strengthen our economy because the dollar would grow stronger and would remove more than a trillion dollars from China.
It would not be easy, but with a few smart people it would be a great start to our future. We would also have to ensure that Congress could not touch that money whatsoever. After we show that it is successful then we could push to rid this country of income tax and corporate taxes because every one would pay as they go. This would emlinate loop holes and tax shelters. Everyone would pay the same percentage regardless of economic class, but the “rich” would pay huge dollar amounts while the “poor” would pay small dollar amounts. Sen. Obama said during the debate that he wanted a fair tax plan and you don’t get any more fair than everyone pays the same percentage.
This could also eliminate a huge portion of the IRS and simplify the tax system. It would still require oversight, but it is possible since people already pay sales tax on almost everything anyways. You could make exceptions for food stuffs or medicine, but that is a detail to be discussed after the debt is paid off.
So, who is with me on this? Who would like to see this country out of debt and strong again? I know that it sucks to pay taxes, but we aren’t going solve the national debt any other way and this way everyone shares the pain companies, rich, poor, and other. What do you think?
People who think the debates of yore were less performance oriented than ours should guess again. You had to be a great orator with excellent command of language, able to hold an audience in the palm of your hand. Sorry, they weren’t policy wonk sessions scored on points, unless they were college debates. Even there, oratorical style mattered.
Obama had style and enough substance. McCain had little style, though enough substance. Obama wins.
I feel that Mccain totally won. Yes it was borring and if you don’t look too hard they both tied. But when a canidates main proposal for tax cuts are to help out the middle class and tax the rich for it and Mccain clearly states that not only with it effect the normal Americans that want to buy their products at their local grocery story or home improvement they will be seeing increased prices. So yeah give me my $20 extra dollars on my paycheck so I can pay a extra $40 bucks at the grocery store.
I loved his policy on foreign affairs also. Attack pakastan, send more troops into afgahnstan, remove troops from iraq that we are making progress on rebuilding and finance the countries and help rebuild their countries economy so they can withstand yes he said it the evil empire russia. Oh yeah not only that but he wants to give health insurance to all americans.
Seriously are you kiddin’ me? How can you vote for a president that has so many unreasonable promises that any normal human being can sit back and look at them and say wow he’s obviously saying whatever he can to win this. The sad thing is he says that American allys relationships have crumbled in the last 8 years. So he wants to start to threaten countries to do things. Not work with them. That’s all we need is another president that has no idea how to be political. He can’t even sit down and relax during a debate and take a little heat. He is a cocky, know all but has abousolutly no record of anything he says is going to be done.
McCain was very clear on foreign pollicies. His tax plans haven’t changed too much. He was straight forward in most of his questions. Everyone talks about experience and he has it. Not too mention he has the military experience to understand our foreign neighbors. With our economy and the worlds economy falling more and more everyday we need a leader that is willing to stand his ground for American and for morals of every humman being and the knowledge, ability, and understading of how to deal with situations such as iraq, iran, russia…. ect. Not someone who’s going to pull the switch.
And for the facts. The economy fall started way before the last 8 years. President Bush actually tried to pass laws to prevent the banks from giving out these ridiculous loans that crushed the american economy.
See Obama is right. People want change. But the thing is people want an easy way out or a quick relief. He promises way too much and won’t ever beable to deliver it. I’m voting for McCain because I feel he is the best canidate for presidency. But the sad thing is I feel that Obama has this at a landslide. The great thing about it is that I can sit back and say I wasn’t apart of the fall of america. Because we will be looking at WW3 the way he throws his threats around to other countries. Our economy is falling as well as the rest of the world we need to work together to regroup not to threaten and be all bossy and cocky.
i like the 1% IDEA
Obama did win if you can read.
Since I don’t have a horse in this race, but I do have a vested interest in the outcome of it, let me say that I was underwhelmed by the entire evening.
Since I have absolutely zero interest in socialism, I am very nervous about the lifelong ties that Sen. Obama has to raging, frothing, fringe left voices. I also think that this sham that Bill Ayers COMMITTED his heinous acts when Sen. Obama was 8 years old, shouldn’t hold sway with anyone who isn’t already closed minded on the subject or too dim to understand the depth of the discussion.
Bill Ayers and his wife of no soul still adhere to the belief that the acts were legitimate and justifiable and if you believe that, you are a disgraceful cretin.
Moreover, the “I was 8″ argument does not apply to the litany of haters swimming like remora around Sen. Obama, assisting in keeping clean and insulated the predatory instincts of this campaign.
Rev. Wright, the Nation of Islam (including high ranking staffers Cynthia Miller and Jennifer Mason), Michael Pfleger, Michael Klonsky, Carl Davidson, Khalid al Mansour, ACORN, the New Party, Sam Graham-Felsen, Noam Chomsky, Frank Marshall Davis, Rashid Khalidi, the late Edward Said, Robert Malley, Samantha Power, Tony McPeak, Zbigniew Brzyzinsky, Susan Rice, Franklin Raines, Jim Johnson …because these are not household names…they carry less impact on the electorate.
Put another way, Louis Farrakhan, Arafat, the Daily Kos, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Benedict Arnold, Michael Moore, Ken Lay, Charles Manson and Squeaky Fromme would fit into this cadre nicely. And Pat Buchanan and James Baker would find it comfortable in the Middle East advisors club.
So, we can cease the sophistry about Bill Ayers attempted murder when Sen. Obama was a child and focus on the belief system that led Ayers and Dorhn to believe for a nanosecond that killing our young men in uniform and their innocent dates at Ft. Dix, or murdering Brinks truck drivers or bombing police stations and trying to kill some of the very men who walk into a crumbling tower…or even gloating about the murder of an innocent actress and an elderly couple and sticking a fork in her pregnant belly…is somehow a belief system that can be “acceptable” or exonerated…is simply beyond the pale.
A separate, but equally dangerous belief system is one in which people of the Jewish faith are stereotyped and demonized with false traits and attributes…making them the scapegoat for the flaws, failures and festering sores of dying regimes. “Jews start all the wars” was a drunken, slobbering slur uttered by Mel Gibson, in a tequila soaked rage. But, when the sober assemble and utter the same slur…in campaign meetings for a candidate who has amassed a cocktail of Israel haters with ingredients spanning his entire life…turning a blind eye toward the all star lineup, suffocates the words “Never Again” and replace them with “It couldn’t be, could it?”
Khalid al Mansour (aka Don Warden), Rashid Khalidi, the late Edward Said, Tony McPeak, Samantha Power, Susan Rice, Robert Malley (and more especially his parents), Zbigniew Brzyzynski, Anthony Lake…is a lineup that would put James Baker and Pat Buchanan on the bench when it comes to antipathy toward Israel in particular and Jews in general.
To suggest that any serious concerns raised by the individuals with whom Sen. Obama chooses to surround himself…is merely “guilt by association”…is an empty canard.
Of course one would look at the totality of the picture and come to conclusions about what one thinks and how they think…about an array of subjects. Some lesser lights come here and in one breath spout “you people”…obviously coming to conclusions about anyone who posts or comments here by the choice they made to associate in this forum…and in the next breath say that it’s silly to do the very thing with the man who seeks to lead the nation.
It is not “guilt” by association…but deeper understanding by LIFELONG association. The argument about Ayers is dead wrong on three counts. To suggest that it was a fleeting association is a lie. To suggest that it is not meaningful is a sham. And to suggest that the only moment in time that is of consequence is when the bombs blew up…is an intentional misdirection.
Ayers matters. Dorhn matters. Frank Marshall Davis matters. Michael Pfleger matters. Jeremiah Wright matters. Michael Klonsky matters. The radical professors at college, including Edward Said matter. Khalid al Mansour matters. Robert Malley matters. Sam Graham-Felsen matters. The Nation of Islam staffers Jennifer Mason and Cynthia Miller matter. They matter because Sen. Obama’s flirtation with and immersion in people and ideas that froth with rage and hate against America and Israel matter. At least to anyone who says “Never Again”. And that matters…to me.
Sandy- the only way to cure the national debt is to STOP SPENDING MONEY WE DON’T HAVE!!! That’s one thing those in Congress have never figured out. And raising taxes doesn’t work- we proved that in the past, don’t need to go back there again.
The most important thing for the spectators of a “debate” to task their minds to is the avoidance of the posturing and noise. With laserlike focus, pay attention to the words and the ideas. And even more than THAT one must toss them around in the mind, examining the logical conclusions to where they point. All ideas have consequences. This is what, as a grad student teaching young undergrads in an intro. philosophy survey course, I tried to impress upon the kids. Underneath all ideas expressed lies a worldview, which is a vision of what that thinker holds as the “ought to be” about the world and humanity.
Ideally, I tried to impress upon people the genius of the Socratic dialog. Practically, it cannot always be practiced, but what it expresses is a healthy skepticism about the apparent “resonableness” of some expressed thought. Keep peeling a person or an idea like an onion, to get to the core of it all.
The refusal to do this, either for oneself or for others, sets up both the individual and society for calamity that is both spiritual and practical.
cfbleachers,
Good comments from you above. I believe Prof. Thomas Sowell really nailed it the other day: the better way to characterize Obama’s proximity to these people is ALLIANCE rather than friendship. He has chosen to ally himself with their ideas, their actions, and their causes. He approves of them and he wishes to use these alliances to advance his own career.
beemer,
You are correct that just raising the current taxes will not work because Congress would just piss the money away as it has always done in the past. That is exactly why we need a totally new approach to the problem. I agree that the only way out is to cut spending as well, but we both know that would either mean defense or entitlements and this isn’t likely to happen either. Plus, we need to the feds to stop spending on things they should even be involved in such as education, which is a local/state issue.
The tax I propose is for paying down the debt only, which we both know is not going to happen under our current system. If you don’t take in more money then you are spending then how do you pay off the debt? You can’t have programs and low taxes because they don’t mix, plus if you spend every dime you bring in you don’t have any left over to pay off debt. So, tell me how you are going to do it and what you are going to cut?
cfbleachers,
I really like your writing and I think on this your right. The problem is people like you and Sarah and some others on this site do their homework, you can back up what you say but unfortunately there are too many Americans who don’t do the work required to vote for the most qualified person. They get their news in snippets and sound bites or from Letterman and Leno. Obama knows this and he’s playing them for fools. Will it work? I really hope not.
Issues aside, the optics were all wrong for McCain. He has the stage presence of a funeral home greeter, and his presentation seemed needy and pleading. The constant repetition of “my friends” achieves the exact opposite of its intended effect, coming off as unctuous and insincere. He appeared tired and unsteady…and shuffled around the stage with beseeching eyes, like a defense attorney trying to find just one sympathetic face in the jury box.
Obama looked like King Mandinka in contrast — young, energetic, confident and not the least intimidated by the blustering codger on the other side of the dais.
For most viewers, the detailed policy talk was little more than a spreading fog of words. For those who were responding largely to visual and emotional cues, there was only one potential President on that stage…and it wasn’t McCain.
Let’s face it people…if Obama were not African-American he would be blowing McCain out of the water…anyone who could say that McCain won last night must be blind, deaf and stupid.
There are a lot of really smart people on this thread like cfbleachers, Fred, Sandra M, etc. Would any of you like to explain to me how Obama can win this election, with the democratic party split the way it is? I’ve analyzed it everywhich way and it keeps looking like McCain wins in a landslide. Please tell me where I’m wrong. (Dupes like nlcatter, skink, someone75, etc need not reply)
Rotwang,
Why is it that words and ideas matter less than stage presence?
Please take my advice above and peel yourself and those ideas like an onion. Therein lies the core of truth.
Words and ideas do matter…that is why Obama is the winner on both sides MY FRIEND
The fat lady is warming up, this thing is just about over. Barring an enormous “October surprise”, look for Obama to cruise right into the White House. McCain has done nothing to swing the undecided voters to his side. And Sarah Palin, along with the attack ads are just preaching to the choir while turning everyone else off.
Bobby
http://www.idlewordship.com
jb
Will it work. It already is.
Most folks are one lever thinkers. Politics is a bore for them and diggin for details is beyond what they are willing to commit in terms of time or interest, before pulling one lever in the polling booth.
That…is basically why we get what we get in terms of politicians. We call the tune, we pay the piper.
Most people have predilections or preconceived notions…but get their information fed to them (and thus, their opinions), like little baby birds. Regurgitated, pre-masticated facts…with bits chosen by someone else.
Anyone who likes to make up their own mind, issue by issue…needs facts, it’s oxygen to them. And facts are hard to find and even harder to come by without malfeasance attached by an information stream with no integrity left in it. It is now somehow ok to produce forged documents, photoshopped images, and blatant falsehoods as “news”. For a multi-lever thinker…that’s the ninth ring of hell. How can you make an informed decision when you can’t trust the facts you are being given? How could anyone?
We are fed a daily diet of distortion and misdirection…spin and specious lies. Now, go vote on that.
My hot button is the gang raped information stream. The far right holds no sway over me. I deplore the KKK and I have an instinct to champion the underdog. But I take my underdogs where I find them…and right now, the leftists in this country…and their army of Alinskyite bastards have stolen the truth and I want it back.
If that makes me a South Park Republican…so be it. I don’t put a label on my politics…because a label is limiting. If some call me a follower of “traditional liberalism” or a “libertarian”…that’s fine with me too. I’m not as interested in having a name attached to my opinions as I am in having facts upon which I can determine what those opinions might eventually become.
I believe the far right in this country are marginalized and toothless. The far left, however…have grabbed hold of the reins and pose a greater danger than we have ever faced. The own the “message” and the “message” is quickly becoming the “truth”…to those too uncommitted to bother to uncover the deceit.
The most important issue of our lifetimes is before us…and it isn’t abortion, it isn’t gay marriage, it isn’t Iran or Pakistan or North Korea, it isn’t Iraq and it isn’t even the economy. It’s who gets to own the truth. Leftists have stolen it and I want it back. Every other issue we decide…depends upon it.
As long as Obama is able to make like a normal, respectatble, middle of the road citizen in these debates, instead of being put completely on the defensive because of his rabid marxist and subversive reality, he wins.
Unless McCain can get the point across that, not only shoud this guy not be running for POTUS, he should be either jailed or deported back to Indonesia, then the fellow travellers will have succeeded where the Soviets could not.
There is too much at stake here. Obama and the left apparatchiks who support him are not just another perspective, they are a departure into open treason. Elect this man and find out the hard way.
Dear Me: you are absolutely right! He has damn near spelled out his plan, has lived the american dream in this land of opportunity and they still associate him as unamerican. Give me a break, if you don’t support him fine, but don’t slander the guys reputation with the BS! I really can’t understand if you’re really not listening to him because you can’t get past his color or maybe the fact that this guy grew up with all the odds stacked against him from birth and managed to succeed in american, now that my friends is an american story. Nothing was given to him he had to earn it.
McCain IS out of touch, definately lost this election and oh yeah…what plan? Isn’t this his involvement in a 2nd bail out? (Remember K-5) Please believe, the BEST man will win. So all of you who believe this man is so scary, step aside of the progress and leadership which is coming and soon.
I give you Reps credit, you do stick together even if your candidate stinks!
OBAMA 08
Fred,
Because without stage presence Obama has nothing but a sonorous voice over.
Here’s an example of someone who should know better buying into the voice over superficials. It’s from another blog owner, so I should give it attribution – Althouse – who was convinced by performance in last night’s debate rather than the actual record to abandon neutrality. She bases this on this interpretation the economic crisis.
“I’m saying it because I am inclined to think that with the development of complex securities and the pursuit of profit along the edge of disaster, the free market failed spectacularly. When we need new regulation, Obama effectively associated McCain with his party’s love of deregulation.”
It’s superficial and rather embarrassing given her usual perspicity to call this a failure to regulate a free market, when it was government policies – regulation – that distorted the rules the free market then conformed to. Free markets always pursue profit along the edge because that’s where the money is. The problem is that the edge was unsupported or rather only supported by government intervention – regulation. Had it really been a free market operating without government modification of risk, those edgy loans would never have been underwritten.
Brokaw won. He picked only questions that could have come from My Weekly Reader. How many of the questions amounted to “The country’s hurting, what will you do?” Of course the two-dimensional idea of President-as-Patron favors Obama.
But how about questions like these: “What’s the relationship between health insurance and health care costs, and how can you keep health care costs down?” Or “Why are American children still failing in schools when the Annenberg Foundation has spent so much money to make education better?” Or “When either of you becomes president, how will you check the backgrounds of federal appointees to find out if they might be Marxists *before you appoint them*?”
With all the thousands of questions that Brokaw received, he must have systematically picked those least challenging to the candidates and viewers. And posing the least challenging questions gives an advantage to Obama.
I’m sure that this has already been said on a million blogs since last night, but McCain’s answer to the “what don’t you know?” question should have been,
“I don’t know enough about Barack Obama’s background and ideology, and I hope I don’t have to learn it by seeing him in the White House.”
I do know about Barack Obama, so I think he lost big just by showing up and continuing to deceive us about himself. Those who don’t know might understandably have seen the debate differently.
Some of the Dupes on this thread smell blood in the water. Come Nov. 5th, they’re going to find out it’s theirs.
Frank Logan, Obama can win…because he has free political cover in our information stream. (see above comment of mine)
Obama is not vetted by the purveyors of mass political information, because they have skin in the game. When was the last time in a televised debate that you saw a moderator who was a clearly identifiable conservative? The debate “refs” are almost always registered Democrats and quite often far left of the voting public. You can’t get a “moderator” or “ref” in a debate who doesn’t start from a position of left of neutrality.
When the masses are fed a steady diet of attacks on one party and swooning for the other…it can’t help but have an impact. (an editor of Newsweek gave it a 15% swing, I think this is a gross underestimate…by the way, that editor’s grandfather ran for President as a Socialist).
When the game is rigged, so that the blatant attempt to sway public opinion is toward one party…it moves the middle. And the middle…is where the national races are won or lost.
Painting Sen. Obama as something of a “savior” and not as someone who has flirted with fringe leftism his entire life…is designed to dull the senses of that middle, soften them up…while hammering relentlessly about how “erratic” or “stupid” the other side is. (Reagan was old, erratic, stupid, dangerous…Ford was clumsy, stupid, dangerous, Bush …well, you get the picture). By demonizing and ridiculing the opposition, while providing political cover for the leftist candidate…you rig the game. It’s a built in wall to scale for the Republicans…they have to fight their opponent AND the refs.
How can he win? Easy. If McCain and Palin can’t fight off the refs and umpires who are trying to fix the outcome…they lose. The middle votes on the distortions because the masses don’t have equal access to the truth.
Obama is likely to win, but that doesn’t mean that he will make a good President. He will likely be an order of magnitude worse than Carter. So, all you Obama supports gloat while you can, but when interest rates are again over 10% and unemployment is the same enjoy your wonderkin. There are very few that will be voting for Obama that even remember the good old days of the late ’70s, so we will be doomed to repeat them. I’ll be waiting until 2012 for the next Ronnie to pull us out of the mess we will be in by then. I hope you like your sweaters and no gas.
Rotwang – “For most viewers, the detailed policy talk was little more than a spreading fog of words. For those who were responding largely to visual and emotional cues, there was only one potential President on that stage…and it wasn’t McCain.”
For most viewers? Like you, you mean? Brilliant! Keep the mush coming Rotwang. Did you suck on your fingers and pee your pants a little bit everytime The One stood up and realeased his baritone voice up through your anal cavity? Did you say… I wanna vote, I wanna vote, right now, right now, I like it, I like it, I like what I see and I don’t care who knows? I hope for your pathetic sake you were wearing dark colored pants.
Who is Barack Hussein Obama, really? Who is this illusionist? Who is this actor? That’s what policy oriented Americans will be thinking on Nov. 4th.
Frank Logan:
Thanks for that. I love being called a dupe, just because I don’t agree with you. I love it when people are so *sure* they’re right that anyone else must be the dumbest guy in the whole world.
cfbleachers, I agree with everything you said, but you didn’t answer my question. How is Obama going to overcome the split in the democratic party?
Someone 75, I don’t think you’re dumb. I think you are duped.
cfbleachers,
You nailed it.
CAL,
I would like to believe you that people would step behind the curtain and vote based on policy and character, but we both know that is total crap when it comes to the popularity contest of the American Presidency. Most voters have not grown out of their voting habits from junior high and never will. They vote with their emotions and don’t give a damn about policies. You can promise them the moon and and as long as you look good doing it they will vote for you. It is truly sad, but that is the truth. Or else how to you explain Carter, Bush, and Clinton.
jb,
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Freedom
Freedom is just another word…:
forgetaboutit. Actually I wasted my time with her (as usual with libs). She still didn’t get it.
cfbleachers – “You can’t get a “moderator” or “ref” in a debate who doesn’t start from a position of left of neutrality.”
To follow your lead, I heard a very astute comment regarding the “refs” in the debates. Many refs have a favorite team. There is nothing wrong with that. But if the ref places a bet on a game he or she is officiating that is illegal. Gwen Ifil placed a bet worth $2-300,000 on Barac Obama by writing her book. This perfectly illustrates the unfair advantage that Democrats create and cultivate with their allies in the MSM.
cfbleachers – “When the masses are fed a steady diet of attacks on one party and swooning for the other…it can’t help but have an impact.”
I have a degree in marketing and have spent 20 years developing high impact marketing campaigns for some of the biggest companies in America. Barack Obama is recieving hundreds of millions of dollars worth of positive marketing messages completely free of charge.
In the business we call this, gaining “mindshare.” Some of the most successful marketing efforts in the world are tailored around gaining incremental mindshare by “touching” the consumers thought processes over and over again with your message (think Coke, Mcdonalds etc).
Our American culture is highly susceptible to carefully crafted marketing messages that drive our behavior. All political campaigns try to accomplish this in varying degrees. Barack Obama has recieved the largest amount of positive mindshare altering messages I’ve ever witnessed via the MSM.
On average, it takes 9 mindshare messages for a consumer to form their decision about that message. The positive and negative messages put forth are carefully crafted to maximize behavior modification and ultimately create market share, paying customers, in this case votes for your cause. Barack Obama should have to report the free marketing by the MSM as in-kind campaign contributions. It is that blatant and unfair to John McCain.
Frank Logan, Hillary’s voters may come over in some numbers…but Obama may not need them.
Remember, the way our system of voting works, Sen. Obama can win if he garners some of the middle…not all of it. African Americans will come out in record numbers and vote in record percentages for him, I believe. This is a matter of natural pride in a candidate who is a source of “home team” pride…and he and his campaign are masters at grass roots organization.
If Sen McCain does not garner the Hispanic vote at similar or greater levels than in prior elections…there will be a shift in popular vote that can more than make up for the Hillary “split”…if that comes to pass in any great degree.
Sen. Obama will win most big cities. He simply will. He will win in the Northeast and probably in the Pacific Northwest.
Sen. McCain will win much of the deep South. (Virginia is no longer deep south, it is tilting toward Northeastern style voting patterns)
What I don’t know…is how this will all play in corn and coal country. Iowa, Missouri, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania. I simply don’t see the “split” (if you are referring to Hillary’s voters…or Reagan Democrats) as being the deciding factor. I think they are “a” factor…surely.
I believe the “middle” will decide the election. But that middle consists of more than just Hillary’s voters and Reagan Democrats…and the shift in black and Hispanic vote percentages will need to be overcome by the rest of that “middle” if McCain is to win.
The good news for McCain is….much of Obama’s base is already in the bag and counted for him. The bad news for McCain, is he doesn’t really have a base in the bag….he needs to win the “second choice” votes and inspire them to get off their couches.
There used to be a theory in Chicago that an Irishman won so many elections, because he was the second choice of the other ethnic groups. The Italians would vote for an Italian first, but if one wasn’t in the race, he would vote for the Irish guy. Same with the Polish, the Greeks, etc. It may be anecdotal…but the principle remains. If McCain is to win, he has to get a bunch of people inspired to vote for their second choice.
Obama doesn’t need that, he really doesn’t need Hillary’s voters…if McCain’s voters stay on the couch.
I’m not sure who won the debate last night. But I can tell you who lost; the American people.
Because it was far from fair. The scales of fairness were tipping so much in Barack’s favor his feet could touch the floor.
In other words, it was as fair as a court fight where the judge is the Uncle of one of the parties.
Look, if this election were a fair fight, I could, without rancor, accept the outcome.
But it’s not.
I detest the members of the mainstream media who view their job as helping defeat John McCain.
Just as bad, I hate the way, at the debates, liberal pundits almost always are the ones asking the questions. Last night, it was Tom Brokaw, who along with his buddies at NBC are carrying enough water for Obama to supply the drinking needs of New York for a generation.
It was supposed to be more like a town hall meeting. With the type of questions they produce.
But, last night, with almost no exceptions, Brokaw’s questions were the kind that the mainstream media always provides.
Not only did Brokaw edit all the questions, but he cherry-picked the ones Obama would be most comfortable with. There was a total of one question that resembled a softball for McCain. But that came at the end of the debate, and was intended to give the appearance of impartiality. To me, though, its presence rang hollow.
All the others fit nicely in the Obama world of nuance and word parsing. To an extent, I blame Hannity, Rush, Malkin, Hewitt and other conservative media people for letting the moderator-fairness-alarm go unrung.
As a result, for pro-American McCain supporters, this election, not to mention the war in Iraq, may very well go unwon.
DOES THIS MATTER?
mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/194354.php (with link at Michelle Malkin)
is reporting in 1996 the Democratic Socialists of America said our very own Barry was a member of their “New Party.”
Let’s see if the MSM fusses over this like they did the bogus claim of “other” party membership of Palin in Alaska.
OT, sorry.
Brokaw is at NBC. NBC is the Obama headquarters. Still, McCain, in spite of so tightly controlled discussion could hit his adversary very hard right at the end. The question was: “what is your doctrine”?
He should have answered that doctrine means indoctrination and that was good only for people like Obama, Ayers, Dohrn, acorn, etc. He is supposed to have policies, for foreign affairs or internal…
cfbleachers, You are absolutely correct the race will be decided in the middle. The electorate is a perfect example of a standard deviation curve (Bell curve) with 10% on each extreme and 80% in the middle. McCain is seen as a conservative by the left and as a liberal by much of the right, placing him in the middle. Obama is seen as a socialist or worse by the right and he’s all over the place as seen by the left because he’s changed his position so much. Blacks, as a voting bloc have never been in the middle, at least in the last 40 years. Hispanics are not monolithic in their voting habits, at least not in Texas. During the primaries, Hillary excoriated Obama. She exposed him to her 18 million voters, as the empty suit with the radical (Ayers), racist (Wright-Flegler), and crooked Rezko, longtime associates. Many of them see Obama just the way you and I see him. A recent Fox News Poll indicated that “28% of Hillary’s supporters, up from 21% in June were voting for McCain. Read the comments of any blog that supported Hillary in the primaries and you will see that their anger is real and it runs deep. What this all means is the democratic party is split. This means that 350,000 Hillary supporters in both Ohio and Pa. for example are going to vote for McCain. In 2004, Bush won Ohio, by 135,000 votes and lost Pa by 130,000 votes. If Obama loses Ohio and Pa he can NOT win.
http://www.timesleader.com/news/Dem_group__backing__McCain_10-06-2008.html
Suggested reading:
at: redstate.com — look in the column of “recommended diaries” and scroll down to “More Trouble Brewing for Obama” –
info on the movie to be released about intimidation tactics by BO’s campaign in primaries/caucuses.
Just like his other campaigns, the nomination and now the election may very well be won using tactics that should be despicable to every American.
You vote this guy in office – and you’ll get the America you deserve.
What I’ve observed at PJM blogs and at several others I read tends to confirm my preconceptions going into this whole thing: Obama supporters always claim that their man won the debate. I honestly have not seen one post by an Obamabot that contradicts this. On the other hand, we who are going to vote for John McCain do have more varying opinions, and a lot of us, including me, can find dimensions of the debates where McCain either underperformed or he was stylistically stiff-armed by Obama. In other words, we acknowledge that our candidate may have, in the minds of many, lost the debate. We are more likely to be critical of our candidate and his positions.
What does that tell you about the nature of bias? It’s very rare that one finds a thoughtful, reasoned response coming from the Obamabots. And those few people, while I may not agree with them, garner at least some respect from me. It’s the other kind, who lob idiocies and then run away that are annoying to us who really do relish thoughtful opinion and writing.
While not high up on the list of reasons why I left the Left many years ago, the fact that I observed juvenile and immature tendencies among the rank and file activist kind of Leftist played a role in my assessment of the worth of socialist ideology. Look at those countries where socialism had or continues to rule. Does socialism produce a new, moral human being? Now THAT was definitely one of the more important observations that weighed heavily in how I re-evaluated where I was in my thinking. After all, one of the dimensions of the telos of socialism is the utopian understanding that socialism will make people better human beings. It never has. From the French Revolution on down through the 20th century’s experiments on down to this very day, the evidence contradicts the theory.
Look at the cast of characters from the Weathermen, from the two most famous ones on down through the lineup. When you take stock of what kind of people these violent revolutionaries are, they are all narcissistic, personality-disordered, sociopathic…. Look at the real historical evidence for the character and behavior of all the famous utopians/totalitarians, from Rousseau, Marx, to Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Mugabe, et al. Even their lesser lights and apparatchiks were monsters, including Vladimir Putin.
These kids who wear the Che Guevara t-shirts or have his visage on a Cuban flag in campaign headquarters or their apartments reveal both a stunning ignorance of history and a scary attraction to evil.
The Barack Obama I have heard in the debates and in speeches is most definitely a man who will say anything to get elected. Even his posture is studied and prepared in order to put the hook out there. The John McCain who I’ve watched is not a perfect man or has a stellar intellect. He makes mistakes and he misses opportunities, but he’s a real person. Does he have character flaws? Of course does, including his legendary temper. And he did cheat on his first wife and he did make mistakes early in his life in relationships. But he strikes me as a man who has been on the path to maturity. The core of him is not venal. So what if he is not polished and debonair?
The odds are he is going to lose on November 5th, but that will not deter me from doing my duty as a citizen and a patriot. I was brought up to stand up and be counted, and I’m not about to change that because I’m depressed about what is likely to transpire.
I have already submitted my absentee ballot voting for McCain, but I don’t hold out much hope for victory. The left has it easy because all they have to do is blame everything on the Republicans to get elected. McCain has to separate himself from the party and solve all this countries perceived problems before he can be elected. It isn’t likely that is going to happen.
Another interesting read is at americanthinker.com
“Obama the Facilitator” is its title, I think.
The author, as one himself, makes the case that BO is not an executive, but a facilitator, and therefore is unqualified for the position he seeks.
And nicely points out our Sarah, in fact, is qualified.
CalIndie – Rotwang was right. He was making a dispassionate observation. I hear it all the time: “looking Presidential”. Image over substance.
Fred – the visuals matter, because a picture says a thousand words… and those words get right by most people’s filters.
Frank Logan – Doesn’t matter that the Dems are split. The Inds are coming over to him. It has always been McCain’s election to lose, really. People have always had misgivings about Obama, but have supported him through ideology or political correctness. All people need is an excuse to vote for McCain. Thus the party split… but it’s not enough.
McCain HAS been erratic. He’s frustrated that he can’t get through to the people. If he hits Obama, they frown on how mean he is. The media filters his messages. He can tell the debates are rigged. Last night he was begging for votes! I could hear it: Don’t you people see what’s going on? It was Bob Dole all over again: “Where’s the Outrage?” He can see what’s coming, but seems powerless to stop it. The disadvantage of age: You can see the answers, but can no longer relate.
I remember what Bush (I) had to say after he lost to Clinton. “It’s finally over!” He’d known for a long time that he was going to lose, when he sensibly shouldn’t have, but he had to soldier on. He was relieved that it was finally over.
McCain is at that point; the “What’s the point?” point. You know you’re getting screwed. The Meltdown came, and it was CERTAINLY not McCain’s fault, but he gets burned by it naetheless.
This campaign can be won, but not by McCain. he’s lost in his frustration, and his phrases are becoming hackneyed. Outside events and groups have to pick up the slack and go after Obama. Oddly, Palin could win this thing for McCain, if she finds the exact right message. She can reach people, despite the MSM smear campaign. So could others who can get the truth out about Obama. They have to find the exact right note to hit about Obama’s character that will get past the siren song of free lunches.
“fred” 12:55pm,
You summed up quite articulately what I wanted to throw out as a “funny bone” comment – via Bob Hope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8aQt2_ac6I
There is only one country on earth where either Euro lite socialism or the harder kind have not been discredited: the United States. The Carter experience did not quite get at it. In any event, in order to be able to resist a virus in the future it may well require a short term bout with the virus in order for the immune system to be strong enough to ward off future attacks.
Marxist economics and appeasement foreign policy will be disasters. There is going to be pain, but I think we have to go through this pain in order to finally have it out with socialism. Once discredited, the Left is pretty much finished as a viable political alternative for many generations to come. The Left has been working at this for decades in this country. At least since the early days of Alinsky’s career. Certainly after Lenin came to power in the Soviet Union.
Their moment has arrived. Let’s not make it easy for them. If they are going to win it, let them earn it and then we can watch them fail. I think a lot of people will learn the necessary lessons. It’s really the only way to defeat the virus.
Registered Republicans as a percentage of the entire electorate: 27%
George W. Bush’s current approval ratings: 24%
24% is where Nixon was at in the days just before he resigned.
As to the debate: what kind of serious discussions can you expect from two minute answers. Anyone who looks to debates as a serious source of information is a fool. What debates do show are the personality traits that the vast majority of people who don’t think too closely about policy use to make their decision. Things like McCain’s aimless wandering, disjointed comments, failed attempts at humor, and basic angry old codger persona. Mental lapses and freudian slips. (e.g., “My fellow prisoners.” This is unfortunate. If he had won the nomination in 2000 and been elected President then, what a different world we might be living in today. Or not. The hypothetical game does not pay rewards. The facts are that he does not exude “Presidentialness”, for lack of a better term. Barack Obama is calm and confident and that is what Americans are looking for, outside of the 24% still bailing water in the sinking U.S.S. George W. Bush. I’ll agree that this has nothing to do with policy or positions. But it is however how elections are won and lost. There is still plenty of time left for things to change of course, so McCain supporters should not throw in the towel yet, as they appear to be doing in droves however. But to all who read these words, remember that the essence of our Democracy depends on having not only the ability to elect new leaders as the national situation requires, but also the loyalty of the side that does not prevail. A loyal opposition is essential to a functioning democracy. If you don’t acknowledge this then you are not a patriot of any kind and I would suggest you are someone who would follow whatever authoritarian party happened to appeal most to your prejudices.
OBAMAFASHISM: Kenya DEPORTS AN AMERICAN BESTSELLING WRITER boots out anti-Obama author
Kenya boots out anti-Obama author
Nairobi – The American author of a best-selling book attacking Barack Obama as unfit for the presidency was being deported from Kenya on Tuesday, a criminal investigations official said.
Jerome Corsi, who wrote The Obama Nation: Leftist Politics and the Cult of Personality, was picked up by police on Tuesday for not having a work permit, said Carlos Maluta, a senior immigration official in charge of investigations.
He was briefly detained at immigration headquarters before being brought to Jomo Kenyatta International Airport for deportation, said Joseph Mumira, head of criminal investigations at the airport.
A message left on Corsi’s cellphone was not immediately returned.
Corsi had been scheduled to launch his book on Tuesday in Kenya, where the Democratic US presidential candidate is wildly popular.
Obama’s late father was a Kenyan economist and the candidate is considered by many Kenyans as a native son.
Minibuses are emblazoned with his picture and vendors sell T-shirts bearing his image.
Corsi’s book claims the Illinois senator is a dangerous, radical candidate for president and includes innuendos and rumours – that he was raised a Muslim and attended a radical black church.
According to a statement announcing Corsi’s visit, he arrived last week at the invitation of missionaries concerned about the rise of Islam. – Sapa-AP
This article was originally published on page 1 of The Cape Times on October 08, 2008
Well said Fred. According to llya Somin, there are two types of liberals, power seekers and Dupes. The power seekers like Obama, who understand perfectly well what they are doing, undermining and dividing America, and they do it for their narrow goal of short term gains of power. The Dupes, they are the true believers, who believe in the face of all evidence to the contrary, that liberalism improves peoples lives. No true conservative ever converts to liberalism, because conservatism is based on principles of Individual Freedom, individual responsibility, and limited government. Liberals often become conservatives as life experience is gained and one realizes that liberalism doesn’t work(look at the blacks for example). Liberalism is tribalist in nature, a herd mentality, always organising or rallying around the latest cause de jour. Liberalism is like a religion. It is “faith based” with the religion being idealistic utopia. The objective reality is, as Fred pointed out, mankind is flawed and cannot be permanently altered for the better (Absolute Power corrupts absolutely). Fred, this race has been over since June. McCain is going to win in a landslide. Read my post above as to why. Prediction: McCain 350 electoral votes Obama 183 if I’m wrong I’ll big boy up.
Marc Malone, look at yourself being all negative. First of all, I dispute your assertion about the Independent vote. I’ve recently seen polls that indicate McCain leads 46% to 42% Your telling me 7 million democrats voting for McCain doesn’t matter. George Bush beat John Kerry by 4 million votes in 2004. Now 7 million democrats who voted for Kerry switch to the republican nominee and you don’t see the significance. That’s an 11 million vote swing. When you apply the percentages to the swing state electoral votes in Ohio, Pa, Wisconsin, Florida, N.C. Virginia, Indiana, Missouri, & N.H., Obama will not win any of them. Take it to the bank.
When Obama says Ayers was just a guy in his neighborhood, McCain’s answer should be “Sure. And Mr. Rogers was just a guy in King Friday’s neighborhood.”
(tears roll down face)
OMG. Actually quoting Corsi?! Seriously?! And expecting credibility?!
(laughing)
I mean, McCain was born to a respected Navy man (an arse, but nonetheless, an admiral). His grandfather was also a well-respected Navy admiral.
And all John Sidney McCain II got for a son was a mediocre party-fly boy… Just like G-Dub tried to get Daddy’s approval, McCain (III) spent a lot of time trying to get his Daddy to approve of him.
You can’t change who you were born to. You can’t (until your are 18) change the name you were born with.
So while Obama as a youth, attended a muslim school, he is certainly no longer a muslim. He is a Christian. Just deal with it. Okay? Just deal.
One poll from last night (http://mediacurves.com/) has Independents thinking Obama won 52% to 34%.
We will have to wait a few days to see a clearer picture in the polls, but at present — Obama.
FRANK — do you have a citation for the Independent assertion above? I ask only because I was looking up a recent Independent poll (not debate associated), adn could not find one. I would be interested to see some independent voter polls.
Proud Elitist-To which independent assertion are you referring. I’ve made many assertions on this thread. The gist of which is that this election is a done deal.
McCain was pathetic and disappointing many times. The economy is falling apart, McCain lays down a $300 billion windfall for deadbeats, and who does he name as his number one choice to control it all? Warren Buffet, who supports Obama, and McCain can’t even finish the sentence without acknowledging that the guy he wants in charge does NOT even support him. Why in hell couldn’t McCain answer the question like a politician, without naming names? “Tom, my choice for Sect Treasury would be a man or woman with proven experience in the economy, who is a committed capitalist, who believes in America and its people. I have not vetted all possible candidates for this position and it would be premature to name one or two names, especially when they have not expressed a willingness to consider being a candidate for the job.”
Obama, again, gets a by on his 95% getting a tax break when 30% already don’t pay taxes; it must mean the 30% are going to get a bigger “refund” check from the IRS.
Obama was the one warning about Fannie & Freddie, he says, not McCain. That lie keeps gaining traction in spite of a 2005 Senate bill with John McCain’s name on it that would have reigned-in Fannie & Freddie .
“Store” nuclear energy? Obama gets a pass, McCain would be crucified as ignorant with Alzheimers.
GIVE China clean coal technology and energy? WTF? Again, McCain would have been excoriated by the media for such a gaffe.
Obama choked on his words not to mention Saudi Arabia as a problem nation in our oil crisis. He said Russian, Venezuela, and, reluctantly, MAYBE, Iran. What’s up with that? OPEC is the correct answer, controlled by the Saudis.
McCain needs to refresh his buzz phrases, they’re repetitive and boring. And I’m tired of being called his “friend”; I’ve never met the man.
Obama is America’s enemy. Vote accordingly.
Frank:
You had cited this: “I’ve recently seen polls that indicate McCain leads 46% to 42%”
I am genuinely curious as to a link. I have been looking for good polls for independents which are harder to come by (aside from a post-debate). So if you have a link for that above poll, I would be interested. (Thanks)
—–
Obama was not 8yrs old when when he work with Ayers on a supposed charitable board, nor was he 8 when he wrote a blurb for Ayers book and he definitely wasn’t 8 when he launched his political career in Ayers home. And yes Ayers is a professor in Chicago which doesn’t say much for our higher education system.
I wish they’d stop calling us the richest nation in the world when we’re up to our eyeballs in red ink.
McCain won by a nose strictly because he obviously lied less.
Proud elitist, Here is a site with similar result. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/obama-goes-on-the-offensive-as-mccain-surges-into-lead-at-polls-904127.html It’s not the one I read a couple of weeks ago, but shows similar results. My main point is that 7 million Hillary democracts are voting for McCain, and if that holds true, Obama can NOT win.
CONNECT THE DOTS …
OBAMA WILL BRING AMERICAN TO IT’S KNEES !!!
Obama wants to
create a National Security Force
with the size and budget of our entire military to
control American citizens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igDoHZ0hVUY
Obama wants to eliminate our nuclear arsonal,
and render us defenseless against foreign tyrants.
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/07/16/obama-hey-lets-eliminate-nuclear-weapons/
Obama wants to eliminate private gun ownership,
and do away with the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/5770
Are foreign donations powering the Obama campaign?
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/10/are_foreign_donations_powering.html
Obama’s appeal in the Muslim world
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0613/p09s02-coop.html
Pro-Obama, Muslim-led voter registration in mosques
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Election2008/Default.aspx?id=2738844
Palestinians phone bank for Obama
http://townhall.com/columnists/AmandaCarpenter/2008/05/13/palestinians_phonebank_for_obama
We are loosing our right to Free Speech, the 1st Amendment
to the Constitution, when the media is in the tank for Obama
http://www.mediaresearch.org/
Obama wants to change our National Anthem
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8430006241001/m/6860048971001
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvxiG56M-eU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwog6E08CFU
Obama chose to align himself with anti-American racist, Jeremiah Wright
for TWENTY YEARS … along with anti-American Ferrahkan, and Ayers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH5ixmT83JE
ACORN VOTER FRAUD, Obama cheats to get elected
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/warner-todd-huston/2008/09/01/more-milwaukee-voter-fraud-name-party
Obama Youth organize …
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=obama+youth+junior+fraternity+regiment&search_type=&aq=f
THE ABOVE LIST IS NOT CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN
KEEP AMERICA FREE AND STRONG,
ELECT MCCAIN/PALIN IN NOVEMBER
I’ve known quite a number of military men like McCain. Those of his generation or older, who are white, often harbor a deep-seated racism.
During the first debate I watched McCain smolder whenever Obama spoke and interpreted this as simply disdain for his opponent’s ideology. Then, as it became clear that McCain had no intention of even looking at Obama, I realised it was something more personal. My wife suggested it was tension, perhaps even fear, on McCain’s part. I had my doubts.
After watching the second debate, and hearing McCain call Obama (again, without even looking at him) “that one”, I sensed the blatant racism in the man.
Some commentators have attributed McCain’s not looking at Obama to a need to turn his Democratic opponent into “the enemy”. Part of this tactict is to “de-humanize” the so-called enemy. That is how some have interpreted the use of “that one”.
In actual warfare such an approach is nothing new, but to see it in a Presidential debate is troubling.
I urge everyone to put ideology aside and say no to John McCain and Sarah Palin. They are not the kind of people to bring much-needed change to this country.
The more John McCain keeps on exposing the facts about Barack Obama’s tax raising scheme, the more people will seriously question voting for a classic tax and spend Democrat.
Cue the background music.
I’m a loser. And I’m not what I appear to be.
Beatles cerca 1965.
Obama, October 7, 2008
Says he’ll give 95% of taxpayers a tax cut.
Yet, never is asked by the mainstream media how you can cut taxes on somebody who doesn’t pay taxes. Obama plans to give people who pay no tax a thousand dollar handout.
Plus, Obama’s plan is just for year one. Mainstream media never asks what Obama plans to do after year one. Obama never volunteers to tell you.
In his short time in the senate, Obama has never gone against party line, and has voted to raise taxes ninety four times. Obama is not what he appears to be. And with a Barack Hussein administration, the American taxpayer will be asked to pony up the money for 8 different kinds of fees and tax increases. For example, he’ll raise the capital gains tax to 35% for people who make under $45,000 a year.
If Obama is elected, by 2012, you won’t be able to afford the trip to the polls.
Ed Wallis Oct 8, 2008 – 4:31 am:
““Grab your guns and start praying when your desperate neighbors will try to dispossess you.” – (posted under “Is Mexico Really Dysfunctional?”) “vivo” spreading the Socialist revolution one post at a time.”
Not really, just waking you up a little . . .
Sandy Salt Oct 8, 2008 – 7:37 am
“So, who is with me on this? Who would like to see this country out of debt and strong again? I know that it sucks to pay taxes, but we aren’t going solve the national debt any other way and this way everyone shares the pain companies, rich, poor, and other. What do you think?”
Sandy Salt for President!!
Frank Logan – That poll article was dated 8/21. Not really applicable now.
7 million Hillary voters crossing over sounds great, but you have to recognize that McCain is not going to get all the previous Bush voters. Lots of Pubs left the Party, becoming Inds. Lots going over to Obama. That’s whence comes the shift in the polls.
Proudelitist – rollingthunder.com had some really interesting numbers crunching on the polls where he takes out some of the Dem weighting showing a starkly different picture. I think you’d really like the site.
CALIndie Oct 8, 2008 – 10:49 am
Very nice behavioral analysis.
Lots of people treat politics very lightly, so they go for the flashy ads (except most bloggers in this site). This can only be corrected with the right education in high school. Philosophy classes teach logic. Do they do that anymore? Merchandisers and politicians wouldn’t like that.
Marc Malone, I said above that that was not the poll that I had seen in the last two weeks, but had similar results. How many Bush voters that you know are going to vote for an extreme leftist? The republican party is not split, the democratic party is split badly. Historically,the shift in the polls is nothing but BS. They all claimed Kerry was going to win in 2004, even up to the day of the election. You think the MSM is biased, but you believe the polls. This race has been over since the primaries were decided, and all the BS in the world is not changing it. Nov. 5th will determine whether I know what I’m talking about, or full of baloney.
Frank Logan – No, I don’t believe the polls. I think they’re skewed somewhat, by about 5-6 points. But, others do believe them, and they give up… and don’t bother voting. Skewed polls can be self-fulfilling prophecies.
Further, no, the Pubs aren’t split, but many moderates have left the party, and many of these will vote for Obama, if they see him as centrist enough. Not every Pub will hold his nose and vote for McCain. Some will vote to punish their party for degenerating so. Disaffection with Bush and his Party is not limited to the Dems.
Still, it’s a tight race, and McCain could win. ACORN could blow up on the Dems. Nefarious associates could blow up on Obama.
The big problem is Obama’s fund-raising. He seems to be spending money he doesn’t have, as if he’s assured that he can raise it after the election, which he can if he wins. He’s outspending McCain 4:1. Suddenly, there’s no limit to his money, so McCain has to play defense in States he shouldn’t.
McCain didn’t look at Obama just so therefore he’s a racist. That’s some amazing deduction.
Marc, I agree with almost everything you said. Some from the right will vote for Obama, but not enough to make a difference. Obama could spend a billion dollars and it wouldn’t make any difference. People who see him like you and I do will not be swayed. No matter what is said to a pollster, almost everyone has made their mind up. This deal is done, I promise. Obama can NOT win.
mccain won hands down ————- it is so disgusting how the dem’s always swing anything to their side — no matter what occurs ———– the dem’s cheat in the voting area and cheat in every area of the media to concur with their left wing view’s ———- they can go to hell and if they win cant wait to see how the country fall’s because my family shall be leaving this country if the obama wins —- and it shall be a sad state for this country for an enimy to gain the white house ———-
Clear thinking does not seem to be de rigueur at Pajamas Media.
Kd, how can I put this tactfully? Your thoughts are at best disjointed and illogical. At worst, idiotic.