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	<title>Comments on: Who Really Started the Russian-Georgian Conflict?</title>
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		<title>By: Elija</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-163897</link>
		<dc:creator>Elija</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 06:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-163897</guid>
		<description>&quot;Zigfields&quot; entire argument relies on the premise that Georgia didn&#039;t have any other weapons to use besides the unguided rockets that Tzhinvali was shelled with. Lets ignore the fact that this argument is inherently flawed; can he/she/it at least cite anyone with military credentials to confirm that? I highly doubt that Georgia had no other options, especially given the fact that millions of dollars, along with equipment and advisors was poured into the Georgian military by US, certain NATO countries and Israel. I find it hard to believe the story about &quot;brave, poor, little Georgia&quot;. They had sophisticated UAV&#039;s that were shot down by the Russians, but no modern equipment which would have limited civilian casualties?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Zigfields&#8221; entire argument relies on the premise that Georgia didn&#8217;t have any other weapons to use besides the unguided rockets that Tzhinvali was shelled with. Lets ignore the fact that this argument is inherently flawed; can he/she/it at least cite anyone with military credentials to confirm that? I highly doubt that Georgia had no other options, especially given the fact that millions of dollars, along with equipment and advisors was poured into the Georgian military by US, certain NATO countries and Israel. I find it hard to believe the story about &#8220;brave, poor, little Georgia&#8221;. They had sophisticated UAV&#8217;s that were shot down by the Russians, but no modern equipment which would have limited civilian casualties?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve J. Nelson</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-163892</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve J. Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 05:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-163892</guid>
		<description>Dan,
I&#039;m hardly a troll, and I&#039;m not on the clock. But at least you&#039;re not using the usual Kim Zigfeld sock puppets of &quot;Oliver Bronson&quot; and &quot;Leonard Daulton&quot;. You speak of Kim as if she (or more likely he) were a real person using their real names instead of an anonymous blogging collective that basically Google-bombs people with stupid lies (here&#039;s an example if you want to look), and is most likely a paid PR product:

http://larussophobeexposed.blogspot.com/2008/11/more-silly-lies-from-la-russophobe.html

If Kim were just a humble trollblogger who compulsively attacks people for kicks, she would take the bait and reply to me. The fact that she doesn&#039;t suggests that would ruin her whole shtick. You would Google La Russophobe and instead of her Google bombing others it&#039;s her brand online getting tarnished.

I suppose in Fred&#039;s world anyone who wants accountability for why the U.S. had boots on the ground in Georgia - both military and contractors - in the weeks leading up to the war or why we were there in the first place is a Commie or Russian nationalist. So add Pat Buchanan to that august company, as dedicated a Reaganite anti-Communist as he has been his whole life, or better yet, Congressman Rohrbacher, an OC conservative Republican who served in the Reagan Administration.

Or maybe you guys can get your heads out of your rear ends and stop denying reality. Bush and McCain (and some of the Dems like Biden as well) completely stepped in it in Georgia. At best, they got duped by Saakashvili and his well-oiled PR machine (God knows where the Georgians got the cash for that 24-7 PR operation during the war). At worst, we winked and nodded at the ethnic cleansing of South Ossetia, ala the Croatian-led Operation Storm in the mid-90s which ethnically cleansed Serbs from Bosnia. Watch the video link above of Georgian troops hooting and hollering while pouring fire into apartment blocs with civilians and killing an Ossetian family by blowing up their car with a grenade launcher. Then get back to me about moral equivalence and all your other BS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan,<br />
I&#8217;m hardly a troll, and I&#8217;m not on the clock. But at least you&#8217;re not using the usual Kim Zigfeld sock puppets of &#8220;Oliver Bronson&#8221; and &#8220;Leonard Daulton&#8221;. You speak of Kim as if she (or more likely he) were a real person using their real names instead of an anonymous blogging collective that basically Google-bombs people with stupid lies (here&#8217;s an example if you want to look), and is most likely a paid PR product:</p>
<p><a href="http://larussophobeexposed.blogspot.com/2008/11/more-silly-lies-from-la-russophobe.html" rel="nofollow">http://larussophobeexposed.blogspot.com/2008/11/more-silly-lies-from-la-russophobe.html</a></p>
<p>If Kim were just a humble trollblogger who compulsively attacks people for kicks, she would take the bait and reply to me. The fact that she doesn&#8217;t suggests that would ruin her whole shtick. You would Google La Russophobe and instead of her Google bombing others it&#8217;s her brand online getting tarnished.</p>
<p>I suppose in Fred&#8217;s world anyone who wants accountability for why the U.S. had boots on the ground in Georgia &#8211; both military and contractors &#8211; in the weeks leading up to the war or why we were there in the first place is a Commie or Russian nationalist. So add Pat Buchanan to that august company, as dedicated a Reaganite anti-Communist as he has been his whole life, or better yet, Congressman Rohrbacher, an OC conservative Republican who served in the Reagan Administration.</p>
<p>Or maybe you guys can get your heads out of your rear ends and stop denying reality. Bush and McCain (and some of the Dems like Biden as well) completely stepped in it in Georgia. At best, they got duped by Saakashvili and his well-oiled PR machine (God knows where the Georgians got the cash for that 24-7 PR operation during the war). At worst, we winked and nodded at the ethnic cleansing of South Ossetia, ala the Croatian-led Operation Storm in the mid-90s which ethnically cleansed Serbs from Bosnia. Watch the video link above of Georgian troops hooting and hollering while pouring fire into apartment blocs with civilians and killing an Ossetian family by blowing up their car with a grenade launcher. Then get back to me about moral equivalence and all your other BS.</p>
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		<title>By: Troll Feeder</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-163868</link>
		<dc:creator>Troll Feeder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 03:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-163868</guid>
		<description>poul: &quot;there is no moral equivalence between a nation brutally suppressing minorities within its borders&quot;

The &quot;brutally suppressed minority&quot; was only technically within Georgian borders given that it was occupied by Russian &quot;peacekeepers&quot; who barred Georgian government presence in Ossetia.  Also, the &quot;brutally suppressed minority&quot; habitually shelled with non-JDAM-equipped explosive munitions the territory and people of the Georgian &quot;aggressors.&quot;

That was a civil revolt that the Georgians were morally obligated to put a stop to.  Giving the Russians - who fomented the entire thing in the first place - their dishonest excuse to beat the snot out of Georgia.

Russia started it.  Your arguments, such as they are, do not fit the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>poul: &#8220;there is no moral equivalence between a nation brutally suppressing minorities within its borders&#8221;</p>
<p>The &#8220;brutally suppressed minority&#8221; was only technically within Georgian borders given that it was occupied by Russian &#8220;peacekeepers&#8221; who barred Georgian government presence in Ossetia.  Also, the &#8220;brutally suppressed minority&#8221; habitually shelled with non-JDAM-equipped explosive munitions the territory and people of the Georgian &#8220;aggressors.&#8221;</p>
<p>That was a civil revolt that the Georgians were morally obligated to put a stop to.  Giving the Russians &#8211; who fomented the entire thing in the first place &#8211; their dishonest excuse to beat the snot out of Georgia.</p>
<p>Russia started it.  Your arguments, such as they are, do not fit the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: fred</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-163791</link>
		<dc:creator>fred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 23:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-163791</guid>
		<description>Having a debate with a Communist/Russian nationalist is a total waste of time and bandwidth.  Besides, you know that his time is on the clock and ours is leisure.  Make his masters pay him for nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having a debate with a Communist/Russian nationalist is a total waste of time and bandwidth.  Besides, you know that his time is on the clock and ours is leisure.  Make his masters pay him for nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Mongo</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-163740</link>
		<dc:creator>Mongo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 21:27:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-163740</guid>
		<description>Are you serious!?  What kind of nonsense are you trying to peddle here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you serious!?  What kind of nonsense are you trying to peddle here?</p>
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		<title>By: dan</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-163622</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2008 17:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-163622</guid>
		<description>are you serious?  you don&#039;t print my comment?  kim tries to bring insight into the current kremlin and you allow these trolls to impugn her, but i can&#039;t refer to well-known KGB tactics, such as blackmailing people into their service by threatening to disclose their homosexual escapades?  oh come on now.  don&#039;t be such pansies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>are you serious?  you don&#8217;t print my comment?  kim tries to bring insight into the current kremlin and you allow these trolls to impugn her, but i can&#8217;t refer to well-known KGB tactics, such as blackmailing people into their service by threatening to disclose their homosexual escapades?  oh come on now.  don&#8217;t be such pansies.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve J. Nelson</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-163219</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve J. Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 20:06:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-163219</guid>
		<description>Robert A:

I would be interested in finding out more about any Kim Zigfeld/Jamestown Foundation connection. From what I understand, Jamestown started as a Washington D.C. job mill for defectors from the USSR in the early 1980s and somehow kept getting funded in spite of the collapse of the Soviet threat. (BTW, people like the Center for Security Policy&#039;s Frank Gaffney Jr. were warning us not to be suckered by the Soviets&#039; taking a dive all the way up to 1991 when the party ended, but they persisted, with a lot of support from what Eisenhower called the &quot;military industrial complex&quot;). 

After all, calling for a new Cold War with China is dangerous and steps on a lot of U.S. corporate toes, and it&#039;s hard to fight someone you&#039;re $2 trillion in hoc to. But continuing to wage the Cold War with Russia is relatively safe, or was until it led to actual innocent people dying in Ossetia, and the truth about that started to come out to the embarassment of Beltway enablers like the formerly wildly pro-Saakashvili Washington Post. And I would ask Kim Zigfeld which is more pro-government: the WaPost or Russia Today? It seems to me you can&#039;t tell which is more party line, regardless of partisan identification, when it comes to Russia. The WaPost writers will more or less do what they are told by their State Department sources and buddies.

From the publically available reports, I have not been able to discern who funds Jamestown but I do know they were paying one of their writers, Vladimir Socor, who is based in Germany, about 50k a year in 2006. Multiply that figure by about ten writers/staffers and you have a fairly respectable budget paid out of some endowment. The question is, where does the private funding stop and the government friendliness endorsement begin? Jamestown didn&#039;t seem to be as prominent as AEI or Heritage or have a revolving door with the Bush Administration but perhaps that is by design. 

In any case, if you have some evidence that Zigfeld is linked to Jamestown, please post it here or shoot me an email at:

stevejnelson@yahoo.com. 

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert A:</p>
<p>I would be interested in finding out more about any Kim Zigfeld/Jamestown Foundation connection. From what I understand, Jamestown started as a Washington D.C. job mill for defectors from the USSR in the early 1980s and somehow kept getting funded in spite of the collapse of the Soviet threat. (BTW, people like the Center for Security Policy&#8217;s Frank Gaffney Jr. were warning us not to be suckered by the Soviets&#8217; taking a dive all the way up to 1991 when the party ended, but they persisted, with a lot of support from what Eisenhower called the &#8220;military industrial complex&#8221;). </p>
<p>After all, calling for a new Cold War with China is dangerous and steps on a lot of U.S. corporate toes, and it&#8217;s hard to fight someone you&#8217;re $2 trillion in hoc to. But continuing to wage the Cold War with Russia is relatively safe, or was until it led to actual innocent people dying in Ossetia, and the truth about that started to come out to the embarassment of Beltway enablers like the formerly wildly pro-Saakashvili Washington Post. And I would ask Kim Zigfeld which is more pro-government: the WaPost or Russia Today? It seems to me you can&#8217;t tell which is more party line, regardless of partisan identification, when it comes to Russia. The WaPost writers will more or less do what they are told by their State Department sources and buddies.</p>
<p>From the publically available reports, I have not been able to discern who funds Jamestown but I do know they were paying one of their writers, Vladimir Socor, who is based in Germany, about 50k a year in 2006. Multiply that figure by about ten writers/staffers and you have a fairly respectable budget paid out of some endowment. The question is, where does the private funding stop and the government friendliness endorsement begin? Jamestown didn&#8217;t seem to be as prominent as AEI or Heritage or have a revolving door with the Bush Administration but perhaps that is by design. </p>
<p>In any case, if you have some evidence that Zigfeld is linked to Jamestown, please post it here or shoot me an email at:</p>
<p><a href="mailto:stevejnelson@yahoo.com">stevejnelson@yahoo.com</a>. </p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: robert a.</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-162776</link>
		<dc:creator>robert a.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 02:14:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-162776</guid>
		<description>(Kim Zigfeld / La Russophobe = Jamestown Foundation)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Kim Zigfeld / La Russophobe = Jamestown Foundation)</p>
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		<title>By: Richard F</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-162623</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-162623</guid>
		<description>Talk about hypocrisy, this pseudonymous “Kim Zigfeld” writes for a Kremlin-connected magazine called Russia! even though this mysterious magazine is owned by the Kremlin-connected company TsUP, a company that is currently buying up the Russian internet media in order to bring this last bastion of Russian free speech under Kremlin control. Read Zigfeld&#039;s own comments about TsUP--she denounced herself, and takes money from them. No wonder s/he uses a pseudonym to write these articles–the shame is too painful. It’s a big mystery whose interests the pseudonymous “Zigfeld” really serves. If anyone finds out which PR company actually funds the Kim Zigfeld project, the mystery would finally be solved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Talk about hypocrisy, this pseudonymous “Kim Zigfeld” writes for a Kremlin-connected magazine called Russia! even though this mysterious magazine is owned by the Kremlin-connected company TsUP, a company that is currently buying up the Russian internet media in order to bring this last bastion of Russian free speech under Kremlin control. Read Zigfeld&#8217;s own comments about TsUP&#8211;she denounced herself, and takes money from them. No wonder s/he uses a pseudonym to write these articles–the shame is too painful. It’s a big mystery whose interests the pseudonymous “Zigfeld” really serves. If anyone finds out which PR company actually funds the Kim Zigfeld project, the mystery would finally be solved.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve J. Nelson</title>
		<link>http://pjmedia.com/blog/who-really-started-the-russian-georgian-conflict/#comment-162554</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve J. Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=40155#comment-162554</guid>
		<description>There is a better response to La Russophobe&#039;s lies and rationalizations on behalf of the Saakashvili regime.

And that is - watch the video at this URL or click on the link above:

http://www.dni.ru/polit/2008/11/18/153505.html

I suppose Kim Zigfeld can pretend that FSB got some U.S. Marine BDUs, slapped them on some American-trained Georgians, and got them to record war crimes on their cellphone cams. But the truth is the Georgian soldiers recorded their own attacks on civilians to savor later, including firing grenades into a Lada car carrying an Ossetian family. The Ossetian family of four was killed instantly, and you can watch the interview with the grandfather of the children.

This film is going to be shown in Washington D.C. very soon. I wonder if &quot;Kim Zigfeld&quot; will have the cojones to actually show his or her real face where the film is shown instead of hiding behind online anonynimity to attack others credentials on Russia while presenting absolutely none of &quot;her&quot; own.

Now you understand why Congressman Dana Rohrbacher (R-CA) told the UK Telegraph that Georgia started the war and Russia finished it. Because he saw the intel from our own people who knew Georgia was trying to get a green light for war from the Bush Administration. And now you understand why Nick Kristof, Anne Applebaum, etc. have all tried so hard to distance themselves from Saakashvili in recent weeks, pretending that they and their colleagues weren&#039;t going to expense-paid junkets in Georgia or shilling for the guy in the last two years, or that they didn&#039;t repeat Georgian propaganda hook line and sinker.

Kim, we&#039;re waiting for you to show up. Unlike at your blog, you can&#039;t censor the truth here at PJM.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a better response to La Russophobe&#8217;s lies and rationalizations on behalf of the Saakashvili regime.</p>
<p>And that is &#8211; watch the video at this URL or click on the link above:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dni.ru/polit/2008/11/18/153505.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dni.ru/polit/2008/11/18/153505.html</a></p>
<p>I suppose Kim Zigfeld can pretend that FSB got some U.S. Marine BDUs, slapped them on some American-trained Georgians, and got them to record war crimes on their cellphone cams. But the truth is the Georgian soldiers recorded their own attacks on civilians to savor later, including firing grenades into a Lada car carrying an Ossetian family. The Ossetian family of four was killed instantly, and you can watch the interview with the grandfather of the children.</p>
<p>This film is going to be shown in Washington D.C. very soon. I wonder if &#8220;Kim Zigfeld&#8221; will have the cojones to actually show his or her real face where the film is shown instead of hiding behind online anonynimity to attack others credentials on Russia while presenting absolutely none of &#8220;her&#8221; own.</p>
<p>Now you understand why Congressman Dana Rohrbacher (R-CA) told the UK Telegraph that Georgia started the war and Russia finished it. Because he saw the intel from our own people who knew Georgia was trying to get a green light for war from the Bush Administration. And now you understand why Nick Kristof, Anne Applebaum, etc. have all tried so hard to distance themselves from Saakashvili in recent weeks, pretending that they and their colleagues weren&#8217;t going to expense-paid junkets in Georgia or shilling for the guy in the last two years, or that they didn&#8217;t repeat Georgian propaganda hook line and sinker.</p>
<p>Kim, we&#8217;re waiting for you to show up. Unlike at your blog, you can&#8217;t censor the truth here at PJM.</p>
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